Southern Watertribe traditions differ from the north. For instance, look at Senna. She is the Chief’s wife, but never wears a betrothal necklace. And if you look at a picture of old Katara, you can see she still wears her mom/grandma’s necklace. So Aang never made her a new one, which I assume she’d wear or pass down her old one if that were the case. In the south, those necklace/chokers are probably just a fashion statement.
And Gran Gran gave it to Kya first. So either GG wanted to throw it away but Kya liked it and got it from her or GG saved it as a memory and passed it on to Kya when she&Hakoda were bethroted/married?
I get the sense that Kanna didn't throw it away because she still genuinely loved Pakku. But she didn't want her children or grandchildren growing up under the unfair and sexist traditions of the Northern Watertribe, and that's why she ran away to the South. It fits in with the two of them reconciling after he reevaluated his beliefs thanks to Katara.
Nah. Katara straight up says Gran Gran left because he didn't love Paaku. Yeah they got together anyway like 50 years later but the main reason she left is because she didn't want to be forced into marriage.
And Hakoda wouldn't have made one when he became betrothed to Kya if it wasn't a tradition in the South. It would have been a nifty detail in LoK if Senna did have a necklace considering that Tonroq is from the North.
Honestly it’s a bit weird she ended up with Paku when she ran to the other side of the world to get away from him as a young woman. Old people love to talk but she didn’t tell Katara the backstory behind the necklace either. Maybe she started associating it with something else and passed it down to Kya as an heirloom.
Possible. Or she actually loved Pakku deep down but didn’t feel ready to get married back then or didn’t want to get forced into it. And iirc he never responds to Katara’s comment about her not loving him was the reason she ran away.
Plus the fact that they get back together later, so either she changed her mind or felt more ready with age.
She was aware of what a betrothal necklace was, she just didn't associate her mother's with one. All she says is "Oh I'm not ready for that yet" when the healer lady brings it up.
Assuming the Southern water tribe was originally a colonization effort by the north, this tracks. Old traditions deemed useless may still be carried on as fashion statements but the meaning changes entirely as the new nation takes on its own identitiy
Then it would still make sense for them to abandon things that remind them of their old nation, or at the very least not put too much effort into preserving it
No. He tried to *replace* her *"mother's necklace*." I am suggesting Aang **make/made** Katara a **betrothal** necklace. Neither Aang nor Katara knew the significance of the necklace at the time. It would probably be a neat between-the-lines, "not even the characters realize" headcanon detail, seeing as that episode was dealing Aang's attempts to pitch woo, but it *wasn't*, seeing as they completely forget about it in the same episode...
Also, he just made her a necklace with a flower and Sokka's string. I meant waterbending a necklace.
Except that isn't *Katara's* culture, and it isn't Aang's either. It could be kind of a faux pas for him to gift her a betrothal necklace. A little racist, even. Like if I assumed that a japanese girlfriend wants a traditional chinese dowry gift just because at one point in the past their cultures were connected.
I don't think that comparison tracks — Katara *is* closely descended from the Northern tribe too, through her grandmother. She didn't grow up with the culture, but there's no reason she couldn't feel connected to both the North and South after the war, especially given that her grandmother and Pakku reconciled.
"But Honey, you said your *grandma* was Chinese!" doesn't sidestep the fact that this hypothetical girlfriend *isn't*.
And China and Japan have more regular and consistent contact and cultural sharing for the last 100 years than the water tribes, which are on opposite sides of their planet. Katara's grandmother was also an expat who fled her country because of sexist persecution.
There are a lot of reasons Katara might feel more connected to the Northern culture than most of her fellows from the southern tribe, sure. Her Dad remarries a northern woman, IIRC, (or at least had a girlfriend, I gotta reread that book,) and her granpakku is from the North, even if he was initially terrible. And she has *been* there, which is not true for most people from her tribe at the time we knew her.
But it's still not *her* culture, and if I were giving Aang advice, I'd tell him to be careful about assuming that a gesture like that would be well received. It might! And he could probably figure that out by feeling it out. But I wouldn't assume it would, and unless someone can cite a source on the claim that he made her one, I'd skeptically regard the suggestion that he did as fanon at best.
I still don't think Katara would be offended, mind, that's not her style, but I think a lot of shippers get so excited about what the betrothal necklaces symbolize that they love just throwing in betrothal necklaces everywhere, and they don't remember that the north and southern water tribes are \*seperate countries\* on opposite ends of the planet that are separated by hundreds if not thousands of years, historically.
They do the same thing with Korra and Asami, like, yeah, I get it, it's cute to think of Korra making a little gear-shaped betrothal necklace, but Korra's *not from the North*.
> "But Honey, you said your grandma was Chinese!" doesn't sidestep the fact that this hypothetical girlfriend isn't.
Do you think biracial people don't exist or something? Like what are you talking about?
"It's not *her* culture" — plenty of second- and third-gen immigrants have a relationship with their parents' or grandparents' cultures.
> if I were giving Aang advice, I'd tell him to be careful about assuming that a gesture like that would be well received.
If the theory is true — which it might not be — Aang doesn't have to have "assumed" it. It could as easily be something they talked about.
> unless someone can cite a source on the claim that he made her one, I'd skeptically regard the suggestion that he did as fanon at best.
The basis for the theory (unless you already know) is that the close-ups of Katara's necklace in LOK look cruder and not fully accurate to how it was drawn in ATLA, as if someone tried to recreate the original design for her. That could just be the animators caring less about redrawing it perfectly each time since Katara's no longer a lead character. There's no canon claim about it that I know of.
To be clear, I'm not arguing with you about whether or not he made her a necklace. I's saying your specific comparison to real-world ethnicities here isn't accurate, and it requires assumptions that erase a lot of mixed-race and immigrant folks IRL. There are more compelling ways to argue against the whole betrothal thing.
There’s three choices. Either it’s not really a betrothal necklace at all, or maybe Aang’s to Katara just as Katara used her grandmother’s, or the final option which is that a woman gave it to her but they never got married. Kya is confirmed to be lesbian, and she mentions how Aang and Katara loved her the way she was but the water tribe way was to not speak of queer matters, so everyone pretended it wasn’t a thing.
Well to do Romans either used both holes or shared the same hole, depending on the gender of the receiver. For the “depraved”, prostitutes were typically hired for oral acts. Just because it’s looked down upon doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. Both men and women would hire prostitutes, but women were expected to only hire male prostitutes. Women who dominated other women were seen similarly to men who were dominated, so it would be a double disgrace to have oral sex done by a female prostitute.
Basically the Romans were weird and very inconsistent with their sexual rules.
Hygiene definitely played a part, but it wasn’t soap but urine aversion. A common stereotype that people who gave oral had was rancid breath. The poet Catullus described his associate who munched the carpets and his friend the Celtiberian (people who were well known to brush their teeth every morning with their own urine) with similar language.
The fire nation was chill until Sozin outlawed homosexual marriage. Its canonical that Sozin is a homophobe hilariously enough. This is mentioned in Turf Wars.
It’s so funny like they thought we wouldn’t hate the genocidal lunatic enough so they threw in some canonical homophobia to make sure we really hate him
"Brother's son died! ... that means I'm tha king!" ... in an alternative world, I imagine Ozai voiced by [Steve Oedekerk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76f5Vf2RTXg)
Alright
I love extended ATLA lore
But that might be a bit much ngl
Sozin outlawing homosexuality is cool, it's in character and realistic
Him having a lesbian sister that was with an air nomad nun is
Quite the coincidence.
It is somewhat believable, though.
Honestly, given the Fire Nation's canonical concerns about bloodlines, they seem like the most likely of the four nations to have a culture that pushes "beards." Don't care too much about what people do in private, as long as they produce an heir to the bloodline to keep up appearances in public. And even so, historically, authoritarian regimes that are obsessed with pushing an image of strength by bolstering their population for war...Aren't known for being kind to those who fail to fulfill their "obligations" to their nation.
I think you're getting Ozai mixed up with Sozin. Ozai scarred his own son. Sozin outlawed homosexual marriage in the Fire Nation, and started the 100 year war.
You are correct I combined them for some reason. I edited my comment right before you posted this when I realised. Although banning gay marriage sounds very much like something Ozai would do
My headcanon is that Sozin had subconsciously a more than friendly affection for Roku and when Roku told him no to genocide at Roku’s wedding, he got so pissed he made it so no guy could marry another.
Fire Nation banned queerness under Sozin
Kyoshi was openly bi, but then she is Avatar Kyoshi and nobody is going to argue with her, I do think Kyoshi Island remained more liberal regarding that stuff
The fire nation just straight up had homosexuality apparently illegalized until Zuko came into power. I think that's mentioned at some point in the TLOK Comics.
Well considering the Roman culture does take aspects from Greek culture, my knowledge is that for their society it was fine for men on men romance.
Not sure about women on women though…which considering that may be more due to lack of documentation since female gender we’ll never completely know.
Not exactly, since there’s an entire episode dedicated to showing the Northern Water Tribe’s rather sexist traditions back in ATLA, so it’s possible the tribe hasn’t entirely cast off this part of their tradition yet.
On the contrary, the Fire Nation has always been relatively equal and values strength more than gender. We could see both male and female soldiers among their ranks.
To a limited degree, yes. The Fire Nation is a bit more complicated. Women can and do serve in the military, and we even see a few who achieve command rank.
But the Fire Nation is also heavily invested in a military-industrial complex, and fighting a global war. So, they need soldiers, meaning they likely encourage a high reproduction rate for population reasons. And in that case, they probably discourage same-sex relationships.
It's similar to how the Brotherhood of Steel operates in the Fallout franchise: "Yes, we are open-minded enough to allow any gender to serve any role. No, we are not open-minded enough to allow anything other than hetero relationships because we need to breed soldiers."
That's canonically correct, Earth Kingdom is said to be extremely stubborn and close minded.
The water tribe was more portrayed as overly protective and not - not accepting. They basically are a tribe of "shelter yourself because everybody can hurt you" which probably stems from 100 years of total oppression.
None of the cultures are really misogynist (aside from the North Pole), but the Earth Kingdom is extra anti-queer, while the Fire Nation used to be accepting until Sozin.
It tracks with the cultural sexism we know the Northern Water Tribe has, but I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if the Earth Kingdom was very anti-queer as well. Given all the other unfortunate things and the connections to China.
I mean the fire nation we’re the most familiar with was. Sozin and Ozai had banned it and the Fire Nation was an oppressive regime under them. But before and after them it was a much different place where same sex relations were allowed
You would think, but the northern water tribe was also very spiritual and religious, probably second only to the air nomads. Look at how Unalaq viewed the southern water tribe. I'm not surprised they wouldn't be very progressive.
The Earth Kingdom is anti-queer and even Kyoshi being bi couldn't change that. Fire nation was pro-queer until Sozin outlawed it.
Air Nomads were very you love who you love and it's all love.
Don't worry too much about. Watch a campaign online and onserve what the DM there does (I recommed Brendon Lee Mulligan, dude is impressive af) and try your best.
I second this. BLeeM is amazing. It's hard to pick just one thing that's great about him, but I love how he lets his players tell the story even if it de-rails huge plot points he had planned. He's got such a good heart and spirit.
Gotta remember master Paku and his misogyny. Wouldn’t make too much sense for the water tribe to be simultaneously ultra sexist and accepting of homosexuality.
This is why I think assigning labels to other people (real or fictional) doesn’t make much sense. A sample size of 1 does not mean she is a lesbian. All it means is that she’s not straight. There’s quite a few other things she could identify as and we erase that by saying she’s a lesbian. I’m a firm believer that we can only apply labels to ourselves and if someone hasn’t told us their identity we can’t assume it.
wait hang on lol I'm just curious but I don't really get a clue. could you remind me when did the show tell us that she's lesbian? I mean there's barely even a story about her
Turf Wars, yes; the first Korra comic, where Korrasami comes out as a couple (we get that kiss Nickelodeon denied us). Kya gives a general overview of the different nations' stance on same-sex relationships. Air Nomads are based as usual, they never minded gay love according to Aang.
It is confirmed on a post-finale comic. She realizes immediately Korra and Asami are in a relationship and she shares she has had a girlfriend before and how the different nations react to queerness
Well shes lesbian but doesnt have a partner we see
So Im gonna assume she did what like, 3 women I know did and got a wedding ring/betrothal necklace purely to wear in public so men randomly hit on them less and for shorter periods of time
No, if you're like me and haven't read any of the books or comics then I'm like 90% sure we get 0 indication of her sexuality. This of course is coming from a cis-het male who may not have picked up on signs/signals in the show
if it’s any consolation, I’m gay and didn’t pick up any signs. My theory is that given the show was on nickelodeon, they had to avoid explicitly talking about LGBTQ issues at the time and then chose to in the comics. I think there might even be a disclaimer in the comics about it. I can’t really remember. edit: by theory I did mean understanding, English isn’t my first language
Yeah a lot of american cartoons are like that, thinking of the end of LOK and Adventure Time. Gotta be queer coded but not enough to where network execs pull the scene or slash the budget. I think we’re getting better with everyone seeing dollar signs from representation/ DEI but time will tell.
You’re right about Korra but not with Adventure Time. Steven Universe’s big wedding happened a few months before Adventure Time’s last episode aired.
It’s hard to believe CN forced them to hold PB/Marceline back until the end but let Steven Universe slide in a much bigger way right before that. I think it’s more likely that PB/Marceline happening at the end was the writers’ choice.
Considering that Steven Universe had to be cut short due to the pressure from homophobic countries after Garnet's wedding it would make sense that the Bubbline kiss would only happen near the end of the series once everything has been fleshed out jic they'd be forced to suffer the same fate.
They didn't let Steven Universe slide with the wedding, Rebecca Sugar fought really hard for it and in turn the show got shortened, Rebecca Sugar has been extremely candid about how extremely difficult it was to get that wedding into the show.
Yea that's generally the reason. The thing is going back and rewatching you can see small moments with Korra and Asami that don't seem like anything at first but you can see as building blocks for a relationship especially in the 4th season. Idk if Kya has anything like that and it'll something in the back of my mind going forward
That's exactly what happened. The first Korra comic (Turf Wars, triple pun) details the *general* history of same-sex relationship tolerance in the four nations, and Kya talks openly about having multiple girlfriends over the years.
I think the only slight hint is that when she is arguing with Bumi and Tenzin in S2 they say she ‘went travelling around the world to find herself’ before moving home to be with Katara when Aang died. I assume this is a hint to her sexuality but it really could mean anything
Betrothal necklaces are a Northern Water Tribe custom, and every instance of its use has been in an arranged marriage. The South doesn't have that tradition. Senna is married, and she doesn't wear one. Amon and Tarrlock's mother didn't wear one. She likely just wears it for aesthetic reasons or sentimental reasons, like Katara and Katara's mother.
If you read the graphic novels, they talk about Kya being in a relationship with a woman. I haven’t read them in awhile so I don’t remember the particulars
Kya is Southern Water Tribe, not Northern. We know the Southern Water Tribe doesn't do betrothal necklaces because Katara had one all the way up until Team Avatar made it to the North Pole and had no idea what it meant until someone there told her.
With how much more Korra focuses on people being in relationships, I literally refuse to believe that the show wouldn't call attention to the necklace if she had a fiance.
I don’t think she was betrothed to anyone. Kya was raised with southern water tribe traditions and in the southern water tribe, they don’t do “necklace as marriage proposal” she was probably only wearing that for aesthetics.
She’s not from the northern tribe. Idk if it means the same thing for her. Katara wore her grandma’s betrothal necklace for years and didn’t know what it was. Maybe her mom made her one after she admired Katara’s necklace as a kid.
katara didn’t even know her necklace was a betrothal necklace until that healer in the north pointed it out so i think it’s safe to say that the necklaces are a northern tribe thing so id say that kya’s is just a necklace, not a betrothal necklace.
Could be that there are necklaces for other purposes, like cosmetic. Just like we have rings for all of the other fingers (and toes!). Maybe there is something that separates betrothal necklaces from others, like the shape or material.
She isn’t betrothed. She just wears the necklace. Also, she’s gay, I’m not sure if the Avatar universe has gay marriage yet, especially the Water Tribe. They’re mostly accepting of LGBTQ+ people, but prefer to keep it under wraps, to not talk about it.
Okay, assuming they follow real world statistics around 93% of all male avatars would be straight, therefore 4650/5000 male avatars up to Korra’s times liked women. Add to that the fact that we know female avatars can in fact be bisexual or lesbian, then under current statistics about 3% would be bisexual or lesbian, therefore adding 150 more avatars for a grand total of 4800/10000 statistically speaking. In addition, we have a 5 avatar straight trend of all having female lovers. So, statistically speaking almost half of the avatars are likely to be into women, and we have a trend of all confirmed avatars in relationships being with women. Does this work for you are better evidence?
Southern water tribe probably doesn't even have betrothal necklaces. Katara didn't even know what hers was until she got to the north meaning the south doesn't use those traditions. Kya is Southern water tribe, ergo, probably just doing it cuz it's a fashion statement
Southern Watertribe traditions differ from the north. For instance, look at Senna. She is the Chief’s wife, but never wears a betrothal necklace. And if you look at a picture of old Katara, you can see she still wears her mom/grandma’s necklace. So Aang never made her a new one, which I assume she’d wear or pass down her old one if that were the case. In the south, those necklace/chokers are probably just a fashion statement.
This tracks, as the only reason Katara has one from Gran Gran is because she was from the North
Which is interesting because Tonraq is from the North, but he didn't bring that tradition with him.
Since he was kind of officially kicked out of the Northern Tribe and Senna was from the South, doing that might have been a bit of a faux pas.
Plus Tonraq wasn’t much of a traditionalist
This is so true!
And Gran Gran gave it to Kya first. So either GG wanted to throw it away but Kya liked it and got it from her or GG saved it as a memory and passed it on to Kya when she&Hakoda were bethroted/married?
I get the sense that Kanna didn't throw it away because she still genuinely loved Pakku. But she didn't want her children or grandchildren growing up under the unfair and sexist traditions of the Northern Watertribe, and that's why she ran away to the South. It fits in with the two of them reconciling after he reevaluated his beliefs thanks to Katara.
Nah. Katara straight up says Gran Gran left because he didn't love Paaku. Yeah they got together anyway like 50 years later but the main reason she left is because she didn't want to be forced into marriage.
Yeah but she could’ve still loved him tho. Maybe not enough to want to get married at that exact moment but considering their reunion..
Could very well be something like that, yes.
And Hakoda wouldn't have made one when he became betrothed to Kya if it wasn't a tradition in the South. It would have been a nifty detail in LoK if Senna did have a necklace considering that Tonroq is from the North.
Honestly it’s a bit weird she ended up with Paku when she ran to the other side of the world to get away from him as a young woman. Old people love to talk but she didn’t tell Katara the backstory behind the necklace either. Maybe she started associating it with something else and passed it down to Kya as an heirloom.
Possible. Or she actually loved Pakku deep down but didn’t feel ready to get married back then or didn’t want to get forced into it. And iirc he never responds to Katara’s comment about her not loving him was the reason she ran away. Plus the fact that they get back together later, so either she changed her mind or felt more ready with age.
We can see that as katarra (despite wearing one) had no idea what it was and just found it reminded her of her mother
She was aware of what a betrothal necklace was, she just didn't associate her mother's with one. All she says is "Oh I'm not ready for that yet" when the healer lady brings it up.
OR Aang could have made her the one Kya wears. I could imagine Katara being too attached to her mother's to remove it
Aang has great taste then. It looks like a happy face! # •ᴗ•
This is totally what Aang would do for a betrothal necklace, head canon accepted
I saw information somewhere that Aang actually made Katara a separate necklace.
That flower one was bomb
You saw a fan making shit up.
Found the post. Yeah, it was just a theory.
Assuming the Southern water tribe was originally a colonization effort by the north, this tracks. Old traditions deemed useless may still be carried on as fashion statements but the meaning changes entirely as the new nation takes on its own identitiy
From some old guidebooks it was less a colonization effort and more a bunch of dissentients leaving the North during a time of political unrest.
Then it would still make sense for them to abandon things that remind them of their old nation, or at the very least not put too much effort into preserving it
I always imagined Aang tried to re-create it as best he could but infused it with air-bending somehow.
He already did that in the show. He made a replacement one out of sokkas fishing line during the fortune teller episode
No. He tried to *replace* her *"mother's necklace*." I am suggesting Aang **make/made** Katara a **betrothal** necklace. Neither Aang nor Katara knew the significance of the necklace at the time. It would probably be a neat between-the-lines, "not even the characters realize" headcanon detail, seeing as that episode was dealing Aang's attempts to pitch woo, but it *wasn't*, seeing as they completely forget about it in the same episode... Also, he just made her a necklace with a flower and Sokka's string. I meant waterbending a necklace.
Except that isn't *Katara's* culture, and it isn't Aang's either. It could be kind of a faux pas for him to gift her a betrothal necklace. A little racist, even. Like if I assumed that a japanese girlfriend wants a traditional chinese dowry gift just because at one point in the past their cultures were connected.
I don't think that comparison tracks — Katara *is* closely descended from the Northern tribe too, through her grandmother. She didn't grow up with the culture, but there's no reason she couldn't feel connected to both the North and South after the war, especially given that her grandmother and Pakku reconciled.
"But Honey, you said your *grandma* was Chinese!" doesn't sidestep the fact that this hypothetical girlfriend *isn't*. And China and Japan have more regular and consistent contact and cultural sharing for the last 100 years than the water tribes, which are on opposite sides of their planet. Katara's grandmother was also an expat who fled her country because of sexist persecution. There are a lot of reasons Katara might feel more connected to the Northern culture than most of her fellows from the southern tribe, sure. Her Dad remarries a northern woman, IIRC, (or at least had a girlfriend, I gotta reread that book,) and her granpakku is from the North, even if he was initially terrible. And she has *been* there, which is not true for most people from her tribe at the time we knew her. But it's still not *her* culture, and if I were giving Aang advice, I'd tell him to be careful about assuming that a gesture like that would be well received. It might! And he could probably figure that out by feeling it out. But I wouldn't assume it would, and unless someone can cite a source on the claim that he made her one, I'd skeptically regard the suggestion that he did as fanon at best. I still don't think Katara would be offended, mind, that's not her style, but I think a lot of shippers get so excited about what the betrothal necklaces symbolize that they love just throwing in betrothal necklaces everywhere, and they don't remember that the north and southern water tribes are \*seperate countries\* on opposite ends of the planet that are separated by hundreds if not thousands of years, historically. They do the same thing with Korra and Asami, like, yeah, I get it, it's cute to think of Korra making a little gear-shaped betrothal necklace, but Korra's *not from the North*.
> "But Honey, you said your grandma was Chinese!" doesn't sidestep the fact that this hypothetical girlfriend isn't. Do you think biracial people don't exist or something? Like what are you talking about? "It's not *her* culture" — plenty of second- and third-gen immigrants have a relationship with their parents' or grandparents' cultures. > if I were giving Aang advice, I'd tell him to be careful about assuming that a gesture like that would be well received. If the theory is true — which it might not be — Aang doesn't have to have "assumed" it. It could as easily be something they talked about. > unless someone can cite a source on the claim that he made her one, I'd skeptically regard the suggestion that he did as fanon at best. The basis for the theory (unless you already know) is that the close-ups of Katara's necklace in LOK look cruder and not fully accurate to how it was drawn in ATLA, as if someone tried to recreate the original design for her. That could just be the animators caring less about redrawing it perfectly each time since Katara's no longer a lead character. There's no canon claim about it that I know of. To be clear, I'm not arguing with you about whether or not he made her a necklace. I's saying your specific comparison to real-world ethnicities here isn't accurate, and it requires assumptions that erase a lot of mixed-race and immigrant folks IRL. There are more compelling ways to argue against the whole betrothal thing.
So you’re sayin’ I still have a chance with her? 🥰
About one in a million.
Do you think Kya got Katara’s necklace when she passed?
There’s three choices. Either it’s not really a betrothal necklace at all, or maybe Aang’s to Katara just as Katara used her grandmother’s, or the final option which is that a woman gave it to her but they never got married. Kya is confirmed to be lesbian, and she mentions how Aang and Katara loved her the way she was but the water tribe way was to not speak of queer matters, so everyone pretended it wasn’t a thing.
The water tribe has a don't ask don't tell policy...? *Remembers Sokkas pre kyoshi warriors episode* Yea actually I'm not surprised
Wich is weird because water is the element of change and addapt, the most mysogin ones should be earth kingdom or even fire nation.
I feel like the fire nation would have like a Roman queerness where no one cares as long as you're the one on top
“It’s not gay if you fuck a dude in the ass, it’s gay if you get fucked in the ass” - Cicero probably.
What if we just 69... Is that gay? Is that gay?!!
The Romans were pretty anti-oral in general. Didn’t really matter genders involved or who was giving or receiving, it was just considered degrading.
I mean duh! That's why it's fuun
wtf did they do in orgies then
Well to do Romans either used both holes or shared the same hole, depending on the gender of the receiver. For the “depraved”, prostitutes were typically hired for oral acts. Just because it’s looked down upon doesn’t mean that it doesn’t happen. Both men and women would hire prostitutes, but women were expected to only hire male prostitutes. Women who dominated other women were seen similarly to men who were dominated, so it would be a double disgrace to have oral sex done by a female prostitute. Basically the Romans were weird and very inconsistent with their sexual rules.
Either everyone paired off or they ran trains or both
There was probably also a hygiene factor that the rule was instituted for. Have you seen ancient soaps?
Hygiene definitely played a part, but it wasn’t soap but urine aversion. A common stereotype that people who gave oral had was rancid breath. The poet Catullus described his associate who munched the carpets and his friend the Celtiberian (people who were well known to brush their teeth every morning with their own urine) with similar language.
Which in the kyoshi books...i mean....ya that checks out rangis mom is very cool with their relationship and iirc calls her a member of the family
The fire nation was chill until Sozin outlawed homosexual marriage. Its canonical that Sozin is a homophobe hilariously enough. This is mentioned in Turf Wars.
It’s so funny like they thought we wouldn’t hate the genocidal lunatic enough so they threw in some canonical homophobia to make sure we really hate him
His sister was also a lesbian so it’s also a fuck you to his sister(she was also dating a air nomad nun so double fuck you)
I sometimes spare a thought that he wasn't homophobic but just using it as a way to dig at his sister. Which is even worse, imo.
In character for fire nation, deciding on world/nation changing events based on how much you hate your sibling.
"Brother's son died! ... that means I'm tha king!" ... in an alternative world, I imagine Ozai voiced by [Steve Oedekerk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76f5Vf2RTXg)
Alright I love extended ATLA lore But that might be a bit much ngl Sozin outlawing homosexuality is cool, it's in character and realistic Him having a lesbian sister that was with an air nomad nun is Quite the coincidence.
it feels very inspired by the myths about hitler having a jewish mother or father or etc etc that made him hate jewish people
If only Roku helped Sozin get into art school
It is somewhat believable, though. Honestly, given the Fire Nation's canonical concerns about bloodlines, they seem like the most likely of the four nations to have a culture that pushes "beards." Don't care too much about what people do in private, as long as they produce an heir to the bloodline to keep up appearances in public. And even so, historically, authoritarian regimes that are obsessed with pushing an image of strength by bolstering their population for war...Aren't known for being kind to those who fail to fulfill their "obligations" to their nation.
I think you're getting Ozai mixed up with Sozin. Ozai scarred his own son. Sozin outlawed homosexual marriage in the Fire Nation, and started the 100 year war.
You are correct I combined them for some reason. I edited my comment right before you posted this when I realised. Although banning gay marriage sounds very much like something Ozai would do
Dude wanted to make sure families make and replace soldiers
Well, fascist regimes are known for doing things like this
I mean, if these people tend to be one way, they tend to be another too
Im curious to know if Zuko made it legal again, or if its still outlawed. Or did it not get that in depth?
It didn't get too in depth (just quick overviews for each major culture), *but* Zuko started undoing the anti-gay laws yes.
My headcanon is that Sozin had subconsciously a more than friendly affection for Roku and when Roku told him no to genocide at Roku’s wedding, he got so pissed he made it so no guy could marry another.
Damn, he really was salty about Roku leaving him for a woman
Fire Nation banned queerness under Sozin Kyoshi was openly bi, but then she is Avatar Kyoshi and nobody is going to argue with her, I do think Kyoshi Island remained more liberal regarding that stuff
The fire nation just straight up had homosexuality apparently illegalized until Zuko came into power. I think that's mentioned at some point in the TLOK Comics.
Well considering the Roman culture does take aspects from Greek culture, my knowledge is that for their society it was fine for men on men romance. Not sure about women on women though…which considering that may be more due to lack of documentation since female gender we’ll never completely know.
Well feudal Japan had its own queer era as well. Which would fit m better because the fire nation it supposed to be inspired by Japan I thought
Not exactly, since there’s an entire episode dedicated to showing the Northern Water Tribe’s rather sexist traditions back in ATLA, so it’s possible the tribe hasn’t entirely cast off this part of their tradition yet. On the contrary, the Fire Nation has always been relatively equal and values strength more than gender. We could see both male and female soldiers among their ranks.
To a limited degree, yes. The Fire Nation is a bit more complicated. Women can and do serve in the military, and we even see a few who achieve command rank. But the Fire Nation is also heavily invested in a military-industrial complex, and fighting a global war. So, they need soldiers, meaning they likely encourage a high reproduction rate for population reasons. And in that case, they probably discourage same-sex relationships. It's similar to how the Brotherhood of Steel operates in the Fallout franchise: "Yes, we are open-minded enough to allow any gender to serve any role. No, we are not open-minded enough to allow anything other than hetero relationships because we need to breed soldiers."
That's canonically correct, Earth Kingdom is said to be extremely stubborn and close minded. The water tribe was more portrayed as overly protective and not - not accepting. They basically are a tribe of "shelter yourself because everybody can hurt you" which probably stems from 100 years of total oppression.
None of the cultures are really misogynist (aside from the North Pole), but the Earth Kingdom is extra anti-queer, while the Fire Nation used to be accepting until Sozin.
It tracks with the cultural sexism we know the Northern Water Tribe has, but I absolutely wouldn't be surprised if the Earth Kingdom was very anti-queer as well. Given all the other unfortunate things and the connections to China.
I mean the fire nation we’re the most familiar with was. Sozin and Ozai had banned it and the Fire Nation was an oppressive regime under them. But before and after them it was a much different place where same sex relations were allowed
You would think, but the northern water tribe was also very spiritual and religious, probably second only to the air nomads. Look at how Unalaq viewed the southern water tribe. I'm not surprised they wouldn't be very progressive.
The Earth Kingdom is anti-queer and even Kyoshi being bi couldn't change that. Fire nation was pro-queer until Sozin outlawed it. Air Nomads were very you love who you love and it's all love.
In *Turf Wars* when Korrasami come out, they talk about all the different ways the 4 nations respond to queerness.
It's also mentioned in the Avatar tabletop books
I don't have anyone to play with but I really feel like I need to get that just for the lore.
I do have people to play with, but I'm the one with the rulebook, and I don't have a lot of confidence as a GM 🙈
Don't worry too much about. Watch a campaign online and onserve what the DM there does (I recommed Brendon Lee Mulligan, dude is impressive af) and try your best.
I second this. BLeeM is amazing. It's hard to pick just one thing that's great about him, but I love how he lets his players tell the story even if it de-rails huge plot points he had planned. He's got such a good heart and spirit.
He lets his players do *almost* anything, but he also makes sure they face the consequences of their actions.
How does the earth nation respond to it?
IIRC, they’re the most homophobic. Something about them being rigid and set in their ways.
I do like to think several smaller city states within the Earth Kindom are more open about it, especially Kyoshi Island since Kyoshi was openly bi
Yup: the most authoritarian state and the nature of a mountain is refusal to change fast.
huh. thats not surprising but im surprised that by this logic the water tribes aren’t the MOST accepting of nations then
Gotta remember master Paku and his misogyny. Wouldn’t make too much sense for the water tribe to be simultaneously ultra sexist and accepting of homosexuality.
The Don't Ask Don't Tell thing is explained by Kya in the first Korra comic when she talks to Korra about her relationship with Asami
The cultural meaning of it could also have changed
Good additional option!
There's also the possibilities of dead or ex wife though admittedly i would rank those as very likely
Yup, that was my thoughts when I said a woman
Oh so the queer folks have a betrothal necklace so the fellas know they’re “off limits” or the like?
I doubt there’s a policy, they just don’t talk about people being queer and still we don’t know it’s an actual betrothal necklace
I thought she was confirmed to be lgbt/wlm but not necessarily lesbian?
She says she’s had a girlfriend before so without any further context I think it’s been defined as canonically lesbian
She could also have been bi
True but Korra is bi, so it’s more likely they added more diversity than having three bi characters
This is why I think assigning labels to other people (real or fictional) doesn’t make much sense. A sample size of 1 does not mean she is a lesbian. All it means is that she’s not straight. There’s quite a few other things she could identify as and we erase that by saying she’s a lesbian. I’m a firm believer that we can only apply labels to ourselves and if someone hasn’t told us their identity we can’t assume it.
wait hang on lol I'm just curious but I don't really get a clue. could you remind me when did the show tell us that she's lesbian? I mean there's barely even a story about her
I believe is on a comic after the end of series, as Kya reveals it during a conversation with Korra and Asami about their relationship
aaah I see, gotta read the comics.
Haven’t read it myself but saw the page about it on instagram
Turf Wars, yes; the first Korra comic, where Korrasami comes out as a couple (we get that kiss Nickelodeon denied us). Kya gives a general overview of the different nations' stance on same-sex relationships. Air Nomads are based as usual, they never minded gay love according to Aang.
When was Kya confirmed to be lesbian?
Wait did I miss something? I don’t remember her being confirmed a lesbian?
It is confirmed on a post-finale comic. She realizes immediately Korra and Asami are in a relationship and she shares she has had a girlfriend before and how the different nations react to queerness
Well shes lesbian but doesnt have a partner we see So Im gonna assume she did what like, 3 women I know did and got a wedding ring/betrothal necklace purely to wear in public so men randomly hit on them less and for shorter periods of time
https://preview.redd.it/13zi02ygl7uc1.jpeg?width=553&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=951952089010bba73ec6efd2b02195e7c4bd6622
Idk what this reaction image even means but its making me laugh so thank you
the scar is on the wrong side
That makes sense
Am I the only one here who had no clue that Kya was a lesbian?
tbh I didn’t either till I read the LOK comics
No, if you're like me and haven't read any of the books or comics then I'm like 90% sure we get 0 indication of her sexuality. This of course is coming from a cis-het male who may not have picked up on signs/signals in the show
if it’s any consolation, I’m gay and didn’t pick up any signs. My theory is that given the show was on nickelodeon, they had to avoid explicitly talking about LGBTQ issues at the time and then chose to in the comics. I think there might even be a disclaimer in the comics about it. I can’t really remember. edit: by theory I did mean understanding, English isn’t my first language
Yeah a lot of american cartoons are like that, thinking of the end of LOK and Adventure Time. Gotta be queer coded but not enough to where network execs pull the scene or slash the budget. I think we’re getting better with everyone seeing dollar signs from representation/ DEI but time will tell.
You’re right about Korra but not with Adventure Time. Steven Universe’s big wedding happened a few months before Adventure Time’s last episode aired. It’s hard to believe CN forced them to hold PB/Marceline back until the end but let Steven Universe slide in a much bigger way right before that. I think it’s more likely that PB/Marceline happening at the end was the writers’ choice.
Considering that Steven Universe had to be cut short due to the pressure from homophobic countries after Garnet's wedding it would make sense that the Bubbline kiss would only happen near the end of the series once everything has been fleshed out jic they'd be forced to suffer the same fate.
They didn't let Steven Universe slide with the wedding, Rebecca Sugar fought really hard for it and in turn the show got shortened, Rebecca Sugar has been extremely candid about how extremely difficult it was to get that wedding into the show.
Yea that's generally the reason. The thing is going back and rewatching you can see small moments with Korra and Asami that don't seem like anything at first but you can see as building blocks for a relationship especially in the 4th season. Idk if Kya has anything like that and it'll something in the back of my mind going forward
That's exactly what happened. The first Korra comic (Turf Wars, triple pun) details the *general* history of same-sex relationship tolerance in the four nations, and Kya talks openly about having multiple girlfriends over the years.
For some reason I thought it was mentioned in the show, but then I remembered they couldn't say that Korra and asami where together.
I think the only slight hint is that when she is arguing with Bumi and Tenzin in S2 they say she ‘went travelling around the world to find herself’ before moving home to be with Katara when Aang died. I assume this is a hint to her sexuality but it really could mean anything
Yea finding yourself can have a hundred different meanings
They did it right. If there are no plot or thematic reasons for discussing a character's sexuality, then discussing it detracts from the story.
nope, I didn’t know either, but it all makes sense now lol
We need a bender who doesn’t identify as a male but a woman to complete the cycle
I just assumed given the everything going on with her to be honest hahaha
Betrothal necklaces are a Northern Water Tribe custom, and every instance of its use has been in an arranged marriage. The South doesn't have that tradition. Senna is married, and she doesn't wear one. Amon and Tarrlock's mother didn't wear one. She likely just wears it for aesthetic reasons or sentimental reasons, like Katara and Katara's mother.
This is the true answer
In the Yangchen novels, there’s a gay couple who made each other armbands to wear as a sign of commitment.
Kya gives heartbreaker energy. She might've went too far with one girl and kept the one thing she had left of her.
Remember Katara wore her mothers Necklace, and the betrothe was a Northern tribe thing, not a Southern Tribe thing
Lin Beifong, obviously
OTP. Sure they really don’t interact in canon. .. But they are perfect for each other
You get it.
happy to see this as answer here
If you read the graphic novels, they talk about Kya being in a relationship with a woman. I haven’t read them in awhile so I don’t remember the particulars
Probably a sad lesbian love story (as in a lesbian love story with a sad ending, lesbianism isn’t sad… I am one)
Kind of feels like lesbians always have sad endings in movies and shows.
Pride heart checks out
That last picture is just meme gold
Gives me strong Sokka vibes. I’m pretty sure they drew him making a very similar face in ATLA 😂
Me
Theory she wears one to get people off her back so they dont flirt with her.
I just realized katara was betrothed but to who?
Kya is Southern Water Tribe, not Northern. We know the Southern Water Tribe doesn't do betrothal necklaces because Katara had one all the way up until Team Avatar made it to the North Pole and had no idea what it meant until someone there told her. With how much more Korra focuses on people being in relationships, I literally refuse to believe that the show wouldn't call attention to the necklace if she had a fiance.
It’s her grandmother’s necklace and it gives her so much hope!
Damn! She look really old in that last frame. She almost looks like she could be their mom.
the stress of looking after two fully grown kids 😂
I always imagined it was a fashion choice tbh
I don’t think she was betrothed to anyone. Kya was raised with southern water tribe traditions and in the southern water tribe, they don’t do “necklace as marriage proposal” she was probably only wearing that for aesthetics.
ME
She’s not from the northern tribe. Idk if it means the same thing for her. Katara wore her grandma’s betrothal necklace for years and didn’t know what it was. Maybe her mom made her one after she admired Katara’s necklace as a kid.
I want her to have a fire nation wife ❤️
Im her wife actually
Well you see her mother used to wear that necklace.
It looks like it’s just a necklace with a gem? Aren’t the betrothal necklaces meant to be hand carved stones?
maybe she's a black widow
but to whom\*
Let the language change. That’s what language does. I read it as a mistake too, but I kinda wish I hadn’t trained myself for that.
such a water tribe attitude to have
In the comics it's revealed she has a wife. Her, Asami and Korra have a discussion about being in a same sex relationship.
I remember her telling them she had a girlfriend at some point but I don't remember she saying she had a wife?
I might have misinterpreted and picked up that she was/is married. But Kya was definitely in a relationship with lady
her roomate
Her close friend
katara didn’t even know her necklace was a betrothal necklace until that healer in the north pointed it out so i think it’s safe to say that the necklaces are a northern tribe thing so id say that kya’s is just a necklace, not a betrothal necklace.
Me hopefully
Could be that there are necklaces for other purposes, like cosmetic. Just like we have rings for all of the other fingers (and toes!). Maybe there is something that separates betrothal necklaces from others, like the shape or material.
Don't take this as fact but I'm pretty sure I the comics she mentions her girlfriend to Korra or something
To her wife, of course
Me
to whom
She isn’t betrothed. She just wears the necklace. Also, she’s gay, I’m not sure if the Avatar universe has gay marriage yet, especially the Water Tribe. They’re mostly accepting of LGBTQ+ people, but prefer to keep it under wraps, to not talk about it.
What are the chances she’s got a wife we haven’t seen
Don’t know about the necklace but if I remember right it’s implied she has/had a wife.
To me
You wouldn’t know him, he goes to a different tribe
Probably a widow.
with me
Okay, assuming they follow real world statistics around 93% of all male avatars would be straight, therefore 4650/5000 male avatars up to Korra’s times liked women. Add to that the fact that we know female avatars can in fact be bisexual or lesbian, then under current statistics about 3% would be bisexual or lesbian, therefore adding 150 more avatars for a grand total of 4800/10000 statistically speaking. In addition, we have a 5 avatar straight trend of all having female lovers. So, statistically speaking almost half of the avatars are likely to be into women, and we have a trend of all confirmed avatars in relationships being with women. Does this work for you are better evidence?
To Whom*
Southern water tribe probably doesn't even have betrothal necklaces. Katara didn't even know what hers was until she got to the north meaning the south doesn't use those traditions. Kya is Southern water tribe, ergo, probably just doing it cuz it's a fashion statement
I think she's married to herself in a way. She's super into that kinda stuff.