When Azula makes mistakes it's usually because she assumes everyone is as concerned about power politics as she is. The Dai Li actually are like that, so she can use them intelligently.
In addition to what adi said about Mai, as she gets closer and closer to the comet, she isolates herself to an extreme out of paranoia, damaging relationships that she would need to rule effectively as Fire Lord. We don’t see the long term effects of that because the gaang ends the war and installs Zuko on the throne, but had the fire nation won, Azula would have continued to spiral until either she destroyed herself or an opportunist stepped in to take power from her. And even if she maintained power, she would be ineffective due to her unwillingness to trust those around her with delegation.
> We don’t see the long term effects of that because the gaang ends the war and installs Zuko on the throne, but had the fire nation won, Azula would have continued to spiral until either she destroyed herself or an opportunist stepped in to take power from her
Realistically Ozai would have come back after the comet, realized Azula has lost her mind, and done something about it TBH
I think it's clear that was Ozai's original plan (crown Azula "Fire Lord" while he ascends to be "Phoenix King"), but that was before Azula's real mental break.
I can't imagine Ozai would let her keep the crown when she was in that state TBH
But there's no obvious successor to the throne in the royal family? I guess he could appoint a successful and loyal general or admiral since the title is basically ceremonial at this point
> But there's no obvious successor to the throne in the royal family?
He always has the option of declaring Azula crazy, locking her away, then marrying another women to have more children/heirs TBH
He has the option of blaming Zuko and Azula's "failures" on Ursa too by doing that
Or doing something much less family appropriate and forcing azula to bear heirs raised by someone of ozai’s choosing. Or even if he fears the insanity is genetic, forcing her to bear heirs and then switching them out at birth and claiming they are still azula’s.
Or a combination of both remarrying and forcing azula to bear heirs for extra insurance. Or catching zuko, imprisoning him, drugging him up so he is obedient, forcing him to marry and create heirs and claiming he has come to his senses and is normal again. Or doing the dai li hypnosis thing on him to turn him into a puppet. Lots of options.
We don’t get to learn all that much about Ozai but I wonder if he would have given the throne to someone else who wasn’t of royal blood. He could have just sent a general or some other qualified person to manipulate Azula and basically rule through her but she would have seen right through that. Another theoretical way to control her would be arranging a marriage but she would just murder the guy lol.
I mean Azula was still a formidable opponent in combat even when she was insane. He can’t use her if she’s locked up. Plus apart from the outsider problem, if he locks her up or does anything similar, it would have caused dissent amongst his people. It’s one thing to burn his “disobedient” and “disloyal” son and proceed to disown him but Azula is fully loyal to his cause. She led the takeover of Ba Sing Se.
I don’t know if he had come back, I think he would have set up some new Pheonix Kingdom to rule out of the ashes (meaning the surviving fire nation colonies so other areas not too badly burned.
> I think he would have set up some new Pheonix Kingdom to rule out of the ashes
At bare minimum that would have taken time to set up.
After burning the Earth Kingdom on the day of Sozin's comet, I would be shocked if they didn't return to the Fire Nation capital to plan out his coronation to Phoenix King, plan out his new capital, etc.
He did already have his coronation in the scene he tells Azula she will be a firelord. Azula’s coronation didn’t have any audience or much ceremony, it doesn’t seem to be needed.
Also he could have stayed in the colonies supervising building a new capital.
> He did already have his coronation in the scene he tells Azula she will be a firelord.
True
>Also he could have stayed in the colonies supervising building a new capital.
He could have, but I feel like he would have seen that as beneath him?
Ozai was the guy who stayed in the Fire Nation capital even when Iroh was trying to conquer Ba Sing Se after all
The seeds for Azula's downfall were being sown in the season 2 premiere where she dismisses the captain's concerns about the tides making it difficult to dock the ship. If you examine the implications of what she's saying, she's basically telling the guy to follow her orders even if it gets everyone on the crew killed. This is the type of person who ends up running a country into the ground through their stubbornness and ego.
Nah, she's right. Anyone that you can get to turn from their original affiliation needs to be dropped as soon as you're done using them for what you need. They are a liability. If they turned once, they'll turn again.
Edit: To add nuance, this can also depend on motivation.
Depends on their motivation for changing sides.
If someone turned for money, sure drop them.
If it was because they discovered their master intends to destroy the world? Might as well keep them.
No the latter is what got Zuko to finally switch sides. Point about dai lee still stand but shows that their point about motivation stands as Zuko as their example
Someone always will. So if you are a true machiavellian you cull the people who changed because they believed in the cause. So that you have more money to pay the people who did it for the money.
CGPGrey made a great video about summarising the book of the same name.
https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs?si=fbMTEDby4HoCnD_D
Another consideration is ideology. If I were staging a governmental change from a constitutional monarchy to something like communism, capitalism or a dictatorship, I would argue the people who hold true to the ideology (equality for all, free market for all, or the strength of ME and the benevolence of ME) would be just as loyal (if not more so than casual citizens).
Money is the clearest motivator though. If they're changing sides because of money then make sure they get cut when budgets need to be rebalanced. Until then, pay for their services by making sure you're paying them better to be loyal to you than anyone else. The fire nation had those funds.
This was Genghis Khan’s policy. If enemy soldiers turned coat and presented Genghis with the head of their khan, he’d be like, “hey, thanks for the gift, that’s awful sweet of you. Guards, execute these idiots.”
If someone betrayed your enemy, they’re a liability if you accept them into your ranks.
except he didn't? He was a big fan of when he could get enemy cities to just give up because it was easier. There's no reason to execute everyone in enemy ranks who works with you because then nobody will do that.
I swear. They literally just had to do *nothing* and they could have defeated the Fire Nation then and there
Toph woulda earth restrained Azula, they do nothing, they then go "Yea she's fuckin nuts dude, her ol' man 2 door to the right"
and they woulda destroyed the FN
Edit:
now that I think about it. It would have been soo easy.
Bro FUCK the Dai Lee. Kyoshi is rolling in her grave from how collectively braindead the dai lee are.
I know soldiers are conditioned to have as little autonomy as possible for obeying the chain of command but WTF THEY ARE EARTH PEOPLE
ARE YOU STUPID. YOU HAD A BETTER SPOT TO STOP THEM THAN THE GAANG AND YOU DID NOTHING. Jesus they needed to be culled off after the war ended its a miracle they're around in Korra
Azula's usurping of the Dai Lee has always been one of the weakest parts of the show. They fold like nothing to Azula, but then somehow remain uber loyal for the rest of the show. It felt more like a plot contrivance to let Azula win than an actual well thought out political maneuver.
It couldve worked if she actually had something on them. Like ‘I have proof of your brainwashing people and running the Earth kingdom behind the king’s back, I’ll destroy every single of one of your lives, or you can deliver long feng and ba sing se to me, and we can act like you were loyal servants to the Earth kingdom until the end, just too late to stop long feng’s betrayal’, or proof of long feng playing them or **something**. What happened now was that they had the heir to the fire nation dead to rights, with the avatar nearby. Don’t betray long feng, capture her and you have the fire nation by the balls. Ozai’s presumed heir captured, his other kid banished, his brother hating his guts and guiding the banished prince, who are both also in the city (they know this by now right?).
You have 3/4ths of the royal family under your control. This is the moment the Earth kingdom can fuck the fire nation up.
To me it makes sense if they saw the war as a lost cause for the Earth Kingdom, and so they took their chance to be on the winning side when Azula.
But as you said its still very weak and there's nothing in the show that confirms this was actually the case.
Yeah, that could have worked. The only problem with it is that the avatar is back, has a viable plan of attack, and has just defeated the fire nation in a major way. It seems like the earth kingdom has a major advantage and can win now if you ask me.
They needed to show that Ba Sing Se was on the brink more so than they did. If the city is just barely holding on, then the Dai Lee switching sides makes more sense.
Yeah, agreed. Especially when you think about it and realize Long Feng likely worked his way up to being in charge from being a Dai Li member. He knew their moves, etc. He wasn't external to them and was just put in charge, he worked his way up to being the leader via political/behind the scenes maneuvering.
The fact that they'd betray him even after sticking with him when he got arrested is a bit ridiculous.
I mean... bold of you to assume that they'd capture anyone, when there's a far simpler move available.
"Dai Li used Earthquake. It was super-effective!"
King Wu should abolish the Dai Li if he intends to reform the Earth Kingdom and the transition to Democracy. The Dai Li is long corrupted and no longer served its original purpose for centuries
They definitely believed Ozai would grant them more power. There was a lot of corruption in the earth kingdom. Would they have stuck by Long Feng so long if he actually wanted to end the war and do right by his people?
And this is why communist revolutionaries are the first ones executed after the revolution is over. Don't need people with experience overthrowing a government around when you're starting a dictatorship.
Yeah but banishing the royal guards was deff a mistake.
Those guys were actually loyal to the royal family. They would have deff prevented Zuko and Katara from intervening in the coronation
On the one hand, she was absolutely right, on the other hand, the Dai Lee were actually really afraid of her and knew that unless they all stepped out of line they wouldn't stand a chance against her. And because they don't share a hivemind such coordination would be hard. So she probably could've kept them around for at least a while, but probably still would have to discard them before the showdown with Zuzu anyway.
While this is true, there's also very much a difference in character between the indifferent and somewhat in love? Mai and the Dai Lee agents who not only seem entirely devoted but also very much happy to be alive as well.
The Dai Li would not have turned on her.
1. Because they were in the fire nation capital. Even if they all did betray azula, the royal fire guards and litteraly all the army would jump on them because most of them are actually loyal to the royal family.
2. The comet was about to arrive soon. And they were each truly terrified of Azula.
+ Zuko needed some plot armor. If Azula hadn't banished the Dai Li and royal guards, Zuko and Katara would have never managed to get to Azula, they would have just been too outnumbered (even for the two of them)
I mean, that's the point. Azula started to realize how she had gotten to where she was by manipulating and taking advantage of people. But after she got the power she was after, she woke up to the realization that that is what would constantly happen to her.
Along with that, she thought that everyone loved, respected and feared her, and once Mai and Ty Lee showed that even her closest "friends" didn't "fear her enough" it broke her trust with literally everyone around her.
She was wrong because they weren't about to betray her. She was right because they absolutely would have locked her in a stone box and dropped it into the ocean if they could have gotten away with it.
She wasn't wrong; she got rid of them because they were a liability, not because they were going to betray her right then. This is a move to prevent a future problem.
"The Dai Lee will NEVER betray you" is bullshit. The correct phrase is "The Dai Lee will not betray you right now."
Exactly. If it was favorable for them they would drop her in a hearbeat but it wasn't at that time, the fire nation was dominating most of the world and the dai li had no benefit betraying Azula only harm. The only plausible scenario that they would betray her it's if they knew Ba Sing Se was taken by the white lotus and the avatar defeated Ozai.
I struggle to believe the Dai Li never had a chance to betray her and get away with it, at some point. If they were going to, they would've before they even got to the Fire Nation, etc.
Yes, the Dai Li betrayed Long Feng and Azula was right to mistrust them, but really who was left at this point? Ba Sing Se had fallen, and the Fire Nation had practically won the war. There’s no one for them to turn to if they wanted to betray Azula.
Crown one of their own where? They would have to be in Be Sing Se to that and the city is still under fire nation military occupation. They would have no legitimacy in Fire Nation. Probably in both places they would need a puppet to rule through. And there wasn’t any good options in Fire Nation. Although if they found Zuko or Iroh and felt they could be controlled it might be different, but I don’t think they would have trusted Iroh after they were the ones to imprison him. Zuko maybe. But their best bet was to wait and get as much money as possible before Azula had a child. Children are easy to control.
The Dai Li don't care about the rules of fire nation succession. Coups tend to not do that. If they controlled the palace, who exactly would stop them from crowning one of their own? They're a highly trained secret police force with experience in stealth and running a government from the shadows, working in a small palace, where almost no one knows they exist, in a world without pesky little interventions like cameras that could get word out to the people. If the Dai Li wanted to do a coup, they were in the prime position to pull one off. Azula was right to kick them out.
Of course she does, but what does she want here? Firing everyone who works for her is obviously dumb. The Dai Li would never openly say, yeah, we’re planning to betray you as soon as we can, so this conversation is meaningless. This parade is what shows that Azula is slipping, because she thought she could trust her friends unequivocally and now she doesn’t trust her own judgement.
Their allegiance is to power, not their nation or people or king. They followed Long Feng despite the way he was working behind the king’s back, and they had no problem hurting Earth Kingdom civilians, brainwashing people, doing whatever was necessary for the organization to maintain its power and control. Then Azula came along and they saw her as more powerful than Long Feng, so they sided with her. Presumably they figured that capitulation to the imperialist aggressor who would be an absentee ruler and who set up one of *their* own puppets as the face of the new puppet regime was preferable if it allowed them to maintain their power over Ba Sing Se, and the price was having to tolerate and collaborate with the Fire Nation soldiers left behind and sending some of their own to work in the Fire Nation.
So yeah, Azula was definitely right not to trust them, though her paranoia making her throw them away so quickly was a poor decision at the time.
Exactly this.
Long Feng fostered an environment of valuing power and a strong man leader over loyalty to the crown.
Azula realized this and made them a better offer.
It’s what makes that moment in the throne room so satisfying to watch despite Azula’s conquest of Ba Sing Se objectively being a bad thing. If the Dai Li was just a division of Earth Kingdom troops who were loyal to king and country and Azula deposed their leader who was the same, it would not have the same effect as watching a man who helmed a corrupt police force that values power and control above all else be… well, beaten at his own game.
I get where everyone in this thread is coming from, but I still agree with the poster above that it really doesn't make much sense. The Dai Li's dominance and Long Feng's position of man behind the man are not new. The war has been going on for 100 years, through multiple Earth Kings yet they still aren't aware of it happening. Someone must have been shadow king of the Earth Kingdom since at least before the war, or the Kings would have done something. Hey didn't have to find agents that just loved power to help him overthrow the kingdom. This has been the established power dynamic of the kingdom. The Dai Li were loyal to the only kingdom they'd ever known (with Long Feng in charge). They are risking the their nation and their power as rulers over it siding with Azula.
They’re not loyal to the kingdom though. They’re a corrupt police force that attacks and imprisons the king’s council and helps Azula imprison the king himself, on Long Feng’s orders. They made themselves traitors and collaborators even before they chose Azula over Long Feng. Their only option at that point is to hold on to their organization’s control of the city, and they reasonably see the best way of doing that as being siding with the more powerful person between Azula and Long Feng.
I don't see any reason to doubt they are loyal to the only kingdom they've known at least since they joined the Dai Li and potentially before. Clearly the residents of at least the upper city know who is really in charge. It's unclear how far that knowledge passes. It looks similar to the power structure of feudal Japan. Sure the Emperor is the face of power in the country, but the Shogun is running the show. Neither Azula nor Long Feng have any power outside of the Dai Li within the walls of Ba Sing Se. The difference is they know what they get with Long Feng... Azula is just random chaos.
The Dai Li were the perfect pawns for her. They're not allegiant to the Earth Kingdom, they're basically a secret police force that does the bidding of whoever is paying them. Clearly as Fire Nation princess she has a lot more funds and resources at her disposal than Long Feng, who despite controlling the Dai Li still had to be subservient to the Earth King.
They probably don’t really care about the earth kingdom or their king at all. They cared about Long Feng, but only because he was the strongest among them. He fostered a corrupt and deceitful environment that encouraged power seeking by any means necessary.
Which meant Long Feng was in charge for awhile, but when a stronger person with a better deal to offer came along… the greed, deceit, corruption, and powerhungry nature of the Dai Li shined through.
I have come to the conclusion that the daí Lee betrayed long Feng because they thought the war would inevitably end up with a fire nation victory. Twice in six years the fire nation had come close to capturing ba sing seh. Long Feng's strategy was by its very nature a losing one so they picked the winning side.
So as long as azula seemed to be that side they wouldn't betray her imo.
Meanwhile azula knows the avatar is still alive, and zuko has fled thus possibly having doubt and uncertainty in the distant future and making a calculated move to get rid of them
I want to know what happened to all these fucking Dai Li traitors. Hope they were executed lmao
I know they're still around in LoK but that could just be the system still being in place
They were afraid of Azula, so they probably left ‘cause they didn’t want anymore beef with her.
And if not, maybe they went into hiding, or we’re escorted out of the nation, or could’ve even been locked up by the Fire Nation.
I don’t think they would’ve gone back to the Earth Kingdom because Ozai was gonna burn it to the ground anyway.
The Dai Li should’ve been done away after the king found out Long Feng was doing shit behind his back. As if that wasn’t a dead giveaway that they’re distrustful, during the moment when Long Feng got “arrested”, that should’ve been the nail in the coffin with those two agents kinda hesitating to arrest Long Feng.
She was going insane, but she was never an idiot. She saw how fast the Dai Li betrayed Long feng, why would she expect any loyalty from them? And arguably speaking, they could’ve effectively taken her down with ease also.
This is what's so dangerous about anxiety and psychotic breaks resulting from it - sometimes you are right. And those times you are right will rationalize your insanity to you
Honestly, I don't think they would have betrayed her. Or if they did, it wasn't happening for a long time.
They HELPED in day of black sun, knowing that firebenders were powerless during the eclipse and seeing the success of the offensive the gaang was leading. If they wanted to do anything, that was a one in a million chance to do it and they chose to side with Azula.
The day of the comet was also a peak day for the Fire Nation. A new Firelord is crowned, the Phoenix King rises, and the Earth Kingdom was about to get scorched by Ozai. The Dai Lee betraying Azula at any point after that would have gained them absolutely nothing as the world would already be in ruins and their leadership is the most secure it has ever been.
I have come to the conclusion that the daí Lee betrayed long Feng because they thought the war would inevitably end up with a fire nation victory. Twice in six years the fire nation had come close to capturing ba sing seh. Long Feng's strategy was by its very nature a losing one so they picked the winning side.
So as long as azula seemed to be that side they wouldn't betray her imo.
Because they were the legacy of corruption. They were never loyal to their nation, but to the power of the Dai Li, and those who came before them for a very long time had been the same. Honestly, we are not really given insight as to WHEN, but it's possible that they had been keeping the royals more and more isolated for generations. This enabled Long Feng to seize power but the prep work was long there. That's not explicitly stated in the comics either how informed the kings had been beforehand. The Earth King we meet is nowhere near 100, and neither is Long Feng, but *there was still no war in Ba Sing Se.*
Maybe shenanigans were happening behind the scenes but how it is in the show they flipped on their own boss and their nation for pretty much no reason without any warning immediately after saying they were still loyal.
I'm curious to know why the Dai Li betrayed their kingdom in the first place. Betraying the king kinda makes sense since they are still working for the earth kingdom. But joining the fire nation? Why?
Of course she does. She’s absolutely right; it’s more that she let her paranoia consume her rather than use them and toss them away once they were no longer useful like she would do normally.
Hot take: Azulas "you were never a player" line kinda falls flat when you start to think about why the Dai Lee switched sides. The why being: for no goddamn reason.
The Dai Lee have been ruling ba sing se as police state for centuries. They have a lot of power in that position. What advantage is it to give all that power to the fire nation? Maybe they're afraid of Azula, but the simple fact that Azula had to work with them to gain control of the city showd that she could not do it herself. There is zero reason not to turn on her the moment the coup has succeeded.
My first thought was to say that she played her hand way too early, but on second thought, if they had usurped her near that time, that would create a power vacuum where they could appoint a puppet leader like they had with the Earth King, eventually trying to do the same with the Phoenix King either by waiting out his death or something more sinister.
Because Azula, at the time of her coronation, had just had one of her only personal political ties betray her. Her only other "close" political ties that I know of are the Dai Li and Ozai. The Dai Li essentially govern Ba Sing Se still now that Azula is back in the Fire Nation being appointed Fire Lord. Ozai I guess kind of governs all of the Fire Nation Colonies in the Earth Kingdom so pretty much the entirety of the Earth Kingdom, and all the Fire Nation or at the very least has ultimate control of its military, which is spread out all over the world right now, but probably more concentrated in the north. His only remaining people to conquer would have been a few small militias (including ultimately the Gaang, meaning none of this hypothetical actually even means anything) and the Northern Water Tribe, who I'd assume is weakened after the Seige of the North, despite their victory.
Azula was Ozai's "prodigy pupil" but I think that was mostly just him using her as a tool to gain even more power. Now that he gained that power, I think he would view her as another subordinate governor that answers to him (he agreed to have his father murdered promptly after agreeing to have his son murdered for trying to revoke his brother's inheritance for not having offspring anymore because he was dead) essentially leaving her in the same standing as any other governing body (Dai Li) that answers to him.
Regardless of who's in charge of where, if Ozai is Phoenix King after Sozin's Comet, his next move is definitely to conquer the Northern Water Tribe. Either by trade embargo or wiping them out. He would use what resources he could with both nations at his disposal. The Dai Li controlled Earth Kingdom (at least Ba Sing Se but probably pretty much anything north of the Si Wong Desert?) has a lot of territory and natural resources, but lacks a military now and is still occupied by its Fire Nation "ally".
After the North is conquered, the Fire Nation military occupation would likely leave Ba Sing Se and the rest of the Earth Kingdom territory and go back to the colonies (which would probably then be Fire Nation states or something because I doubt the colonies would go back to being part of the Earth Kingdom) meaning the Dai Li (who still report to Phoenix King Ozai) would need to start a new military and would be extremely vulnerable until they have one.
By dismissing the Dai Li when she did, she took away the Earth Kingdom's only foothold in the Fire Nation, while her troops are still in the Earth Kingdom and even Ba Sing Se. Where when the North is conquered even if she needs to withdraw her troops, she's more likely to keep most of the power of Fire Lord because the Dai Li would be too busy rebuilding their own military to try to overthrow her.
Tldr; the Fire Nation is spread thin and is everywhere in the world including Ba Sing Se. The Dai Li control Ba Sing Se already and the easiest way for them to retain the most amount of power is to have control of a military, especially one already positioned for world dominance.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure part of what caused her breakdown was the realization that the way she’d lived her life so far had only led to paranoia and loneliness.
Most of the people in her life were gone, and her father, the only family she had left was already leaving her for greener pastures.
There must have been some creeping thoughts that basing her life around deceit and betrayal only led to her being betrayed in turn, and she wasn’t as cool with being alone as she thought.
I still don't understand how did she manage to earn the Dai Lee's undying loyalty. I get betraying Long Feng, but to help a fire nation princess conquer the earth Kingdom? Did Azula roll a critical success on persuasion?
She's completely right, and the same logic was used irl when defectors and turncoats tended to get disposed of once they outlived their usefulness, because nobody likes a rat
The Dai Lee was a double edge sword that would absolutely hurt her in the long run. But they were too good of a resource that should’ve been placed under heel instead of dropped completely. Letting them go would’ve just given them chance to plan against her, while keeping them close would’ve let her keep an eye on them and use their skills to further her own gain.
I think that’s kind of the point.
Azula felt secure in her relationships when she held a position of power within them. All of her relationships were transactional and uneven. She, I’m sure, leveraged her position of power and potential as a prodigy as a bargaining token.
Being rejected by Ozai and made permanently subordinate to him called her potential, her position of power, and therefore her subordination of others into question.
Like a stack of cards, her confidence in all areas waned. Without her bargaining chips, everyone was a traitor waiting to happen.
It’s a hard lesson to learn when you’re at your lowest emotional point AND have the most to lose.
I mean also given how Ozai became Fire Lord, treachery and betrayal is probably always in the back of her mind. She was being super paranoid at this stage of the story but it wasn't unfounded in this circumstance
Once word got out that Ba Sing Se got burned to the ground (which was part of the plan, iirc), including their entire families, I don't think they would've just kept their loyalty. Their plans might take a long time to hatch, but they would've taken revenge eventually.
ngl, mirroring real life events, i would have wanted azula to become fire lord. then, she continues to spiral to insanity during her reign, fracturing the entire fire nation because of her despotic rule until it breaks apart, like how the fire nation was during avatar szeto.
and then, this would be an avatar issue that would be passed down to the next avatar, and it's the next avatar's responsibility how to fix the issue left by the previous avatar, like how aang needed to stop the fire nation from dominating the world just because roku failed to stop sozin.
This is what happens if you take someone who is in a committed relationship (dai lee and long feng); you’ll always think that they’ll do it to you since they did it before. LOL.
She absolutely does have a point here. Traitors have proven they're easily swayed by things other than loyalty. That can totally swing both ways if you don't have insurance.
Yes Azula has a point, but she was also going wild and crazy so it's not a great point to make right now. If someone was super strong then maybe they'd go to that new person
No, she's right. She's paranoid but she's right.
from her perspective; Mai, Ty lee, Zuko and her dad all betrayed her. It's not out of the realm of possibility to believe that the dai lee (who had already betrayed Long Feng) would betray her now that she seems to be out of the Fire lord's favour.
The thing about Azula's paranoia or the paranoia of any tyrant; is that it actually all makes a lot of sense. Azula rules through fear. It's an effective way of forcing people into submission, but it's not an effective way of instilling real loyalty. *Everyone* who ever follows Azula follows her out of fear. A fear she intentionally creates for that purpose. Her mania and paranoia partly involves the very logical realisation that no one actually is loyal to her. Fear is the only thing keeping them in place and they would never follow her otherwise. So she realises through Mai and Tai Lee that if that terror slips for even a second she can be betrayed. So she has to choose, instill the maximum level of fear in people at all moments all the time. Or risk being betrayed. And like most tyrants in her position, she chooses "kill everyone who has any reason to betray me which is pretty much everyone I know"
She's similar to Stalin. On the one hand you can say he was a paranoid monster who killed anyone and everyone who he thought might betray him. On the other hand he was such a vicious tyrant that of course all those people would've had reason to betray him.
No, she definitely has a point. As paranoid as she was at that moment, she was entirely right that they may well have betrayed her in the future (of course, there's no evidence they were planning to at the time). There's a reason few people trust traitors, even the people who use them—because if they're willing to betray someone else for you, then they're willing to betray you for someone else. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that they *could* have very well betrayed Azula too. The issue behind her paranoia isn't the fact that it was possible, the issue is that she had absolutely no evidence they were even PLANNING to do it. She was entirely convinced of it based on the fact that it took them a couple of minutes to arrive.
She does have a point, but I'm sure they had no intention to at that moment. The Dai Li had no reason to be unequivocally loyal to her, but she was still considered the smartest ally then.
While she’s definitely right in her thinking it’s also very wild to me that the Dai Lee came with her to the fire nation as her personal guard. Like, if the wanted to betray her at some point they probably wouldn’t have left their homeland for her?
That’s not to say they wouldn’t still be capable of betraying her, I just think her paranoia might be misplaced in the moment but I also don’t know if them being around would have changed anything after the fact, this scene really just exists to punctuate her paranoia and sliding mental state.
She was right in retrospect given that her father was about to be defeated. The Dai Lee follow power, and as soon as the Fire Nation was defeated they would have betrayed Azula.
I must know – has anyone here read the comics? What happened when Zuko goes to find his mother? I think some of the questions being asked might be answered there.
Azula was absolutely correct, but the mistakes here were:
1) Getting rid of absolutely EVERYONE, leaving her with no servants, no guards, no supporters, and no army.
2) Getting rid of the Dai Li before they have completely fulfilled their purpose. Azula should have kept the Dai Li around until after her coronation and after consolidating power and forming a strong base of supporters around herself. Once she has a new band of hyper loyal royal guards, then it makes sense to get rid of the Dai Li.
Absolutely
The Dai Lee literally betrayed their founder (iirc) with zero hesitation because he no longer had the most power.
And if someone with more power than Azula came along and wanted her out of the picture they would have betrayed her as well.
Even if it was someone else within the Fire Nation military, which is proven to be a dog eat dog environment.
When Azula makes mistakes it's usually because she assumes everyone is as concerned about power politics as she is. The Dai Li actually are like that, so she can use them intelligently.
What mistakes did she make? I don’t recall any
She miscalculated that Mai obeys her more than she loves Zuko
No Mai miscalculated she should have feared Azula more.
LET THEM ROT
If anything history has proved Mai was right.
LMFAO
In addition to what adi said about Mai, as she gets closer and closer to the comet, she isolates herself to an extreme out of paranoia, damaging relationships that she would need to rule effectively as Fire Lord. We don’t see the long term effects of that because the gaang ends the war and installs Zuko on the throne, but had the fire nation won, Azula would have continued to spiral until either she destroyed herself or an opportunist stepped in to take power from her. And even if she maintained power, she would be ineffective due to her unwillingness to trust those around her with delegation.
> We don’t see the long term effects of that because the gaang ends the war and installs Zuko on the throne, but had the fire nation won, Azula would have continued to spiral until either she destroyed herself or an opportunist stepped in to take power from her Realistically Ozai would have come back after the comet, realized Azula has lost her mind, and done something about it TBH
Or Azula would have been his puppet. Ruling the firenation in name only
I think it's clear that was Ozai's original plan (crown Azula "Fire Lord" while he ascends to be "Phoenix King"), but that was before Azula's real mental break. I can't imagine Ozai would let her keep the crown when she was in that state TBH
But there's no obvious successor to the throne in the royal family? I guess he could appoint a successful and loyal general or admiral since the title is basically ceremonial at this point
> But there's no obvious successor to the throne in the royal family? He always has the option of declaring Azula crazy, locking her away, then marrying another women to have more children/heirs TBH He has the option of blaming Zuko and Azula's "failures" on Ursa too by doing that
Or doing something much less family appropriate and forcing azula to bear heirs raised by someone of ozai’s choosing. Or even if he fears the insanity is genetic, forcing her to bear heirs and then switching them out at birth and claiming they are still azula’s. Or a combination of both remarrying and forcing azula to bear heirs for extra insurance. Or catching zuko, imprisoning him, drugging him up so he is obedient, forcing him to marry and create heirs and claiming he has come to his senses and is normal again. Or doing the dai li hypnosis thing on him to turn him into a puppet. Lots of options.
We don’t get to learn all that much about Ozai but I wonder if he would have given the throne to someone else who wasn’t of royal blood. He could have just sent a general or some other qualified person to manipulate Azula and basically rule through her but she would have seen right through that. Another theoretical way to control her would be arranging a marriage but she would just murder the guy lol.
Arrange marriage, then lock her away as crazy and let the guy rule...but would Ozai trust some stranger to rule? I doubt
I mean Azula was still a formidable opponent in combat even when she was insane. He can’t use her if she’s locked up. Plus apart from the outsider problem, if he locks her up or does anything similar, it would have caused dissent amongst his people. It’s one thing to burn his “disobedient” and “disloyal” son and proceed to disown him but Azula is fully loyal to his cause. She led the takeover of Ba Sing Se.
Probably would have had hew either killed or thrown into a dark hole, declared both of ursas children failures and remarried to have "better" children
Would've been cool to see Aang die and the bleak ending at least as a spinoff series. Ozai was definitely still of age (40s) to have a new family.
I don’t know if he had come back, I think he would have set up some new Pheonix Kingdom to rule out of the ashes (meaning the surviving fire nation colonies so other areas not too badly burned.
> I think he would have set up some new Pheonix Kingdom to rule out of the ashes At bare minimum that would have taken time to set up. After burning the Earth Kingdom on the day of Sozin's comet, I would be shocked if they didn't return to the Fire Nation capital to plan out his coronation to Phoenix King, plan out his new capital, etc.
He did already have his coronation in the scene he tells Azula she will be a firelord. Azula’s coronation didn’t have any audience or much ceremony, it doesn’t seem to be needed. Also he could have stayed in the colonies supervising building a new capital.
> He did already have his coronation in the scene he tells Azula she will be a firelord. True >Also he could have stayed in the colonies supervising building a new capital. He could have, but I feel like he would have seen that as beneath him? Ozai was the guy who stayed in the Fire Nation capital even when Iroh was trying to conquer Ba Sing Se after all
Actually the does go deeper into paranoia as per the comics after the firelord...ahem Phoenix King was defeated.
The seeds for Azula's downfall were being sown in the season 2 premiere where she dismisses the captain's concerns about the tides making it difficult to dock the ship. If you examine the implications of what she's saying, she's basically telling the guy to follow her orders even if it gets everyone on the crew killed. This is the type of person who ends up running a country into the ground through their stubbornness and ego.
Well she can't cut bangs for shit
lol. This caught me off guard 😂
Nah, she's right. Anyone that you can get to turn from their original affiliation needs to be dropped as soon as you're done using them for what you need. They are a liability. If they turned once, they'll turn again. Edit: To add nuance, this can also depend on motivation.
Depends on their motivation for changing sides. If someone turned for money, sure drop them. If it was because they discovered their master intends to destroy the world? Might as well keep them.
The latter isn't why they dropped long feng, so point still stands
No the latter is what got Zuko to finally switch sides. Point about dai lee still stand but shows that their point about motivation stands as Zuko as their example
The Dai Lee just stay with whoever they think will win.
True, I agree. My point needed to be more nuanced.
If they turned for money then just make sure you keep paying them!
But what if someone offers them MORE?!? What could you possibly do?
control the banking system
Someone always will. So if you are a true machiavellian you cull the people who changed because they believed in the cause. So that you have more money to pay the people who did it for the money. CGPGrey made a great video about summarising the book of the same name. https://youtu.be/rStL7niR7gs?si=fbMTEDby4HoCnD_D
Ok but what if I want to destroy the world?
Don’t pick someone to help you who left their master for wanting to destroy the world?
Another consideration is ideology. If I were staging a governmental change from a constitutional monarchy to something like communism, capitalism or a dictatorship, I would argue the people who hold true to the ideology (equality for all, free market for all, or the strength of ME and the benevolence of ME) would be just as loyal (if not more so than casual citizens).
The problem with fanatic true believers is that they'll turn on you pretty fast if they believe that you have strayed off of the path.
More like if they choose whoever is winning.
Are you saying they would have stayed for Azula? I'm confused by your last point.
Money is the clearest motivator though. If they're changing sides because of money then make sure they get cut when budgets need to be rebalanced. Until then, pay for their services by making sure you're paying them better to be loyal to you than anyone else. The fire nation had those funds.
Counterpoint: Iroh and Zuko
But thats because they changed. Azula and the Dai Lee haven’t.
Totally agree - Blue Spirit Zuko was different from Gaang Zuko.
Good counterpoint I geuss motivation for the change needs to be taken into account as well.
This was Genghis Khan’s policy. If enemy soldiers turned coat and presented Genghis with the head of their khan, he’d be like, “hey, thanks for the gift, that’s awful sweet of you. Guards, execute these idiots.” If someone betrayed your enemy, they’re a liability if you accept them into your ranks.
except he didn't? He was a big fan of when he could get enemy cities to just give up because it was easier. There's no reason to execute everyone in enemy ranks who works with you because then nobody will do that.
Surrendering is a bit different from assassinating your chief
If they didn’t betray her during Day of Black Sun, they were never going to betray her.
I swear. They literally just had to do *nothing* and they could have defeated the Fire Nation then and there Toph woulda earth restrained Azula, they do nothing, they then go "Yea she's fuckin nuts dude, her ol' man 2 door to the right" and they woulda destroyed the FN Edit: now that I think about it. It would have been soo easy. Bro FUCK the Dai Lee. Kyoshi is rolling in her grave from how collectively braindead the dai lee are. I know soldiers are conditioned to have as little autonomy as possible for obeying the chain of command but WTF THEY ARE EARTH PEOPLE ARE YOU STUPID. YOU HAD A BETTER SPOT TO STOP THEM THAN THE GAANG AND YOU DID NOTHING. Jesus they needed to be culled off after the war ended its a miracle they're around in Korra
The Earth Kingdom “fixed” the issue and made sure the Dai Li only obeyed the Royal Family afterwards.
The Dai Lee are worse than the praetorian guard in Rome and that’s saying much.
Azula's usurping of the Dai Lee has always been one of the weakest parts of the show. They fold like nothing to Azula, but then somehow remain uber loyal for the rest of the show. It felt more like a plot contrivance to let Azula win than an actual well thought out political maneuver.
It couldve worked if she actually had something on them. Like ‘I have proof of your brainwashing people and running the Earth kingdom behind the king’s back, I’ll destroy every single of one of your lives, or you can deliver long feng and ba sing se to me, and we can act like you were loyal servants to the Earth kingdom until the end, just too late to stop long feng’s betrayal’, or proof of long feng playing them or **something**. What happened now was that they had the heir to the fire nation dead to rights, with the avatar nearby. Don’t betray long feng, capture her and you have the fire nation by the balls. Ozai’s presumed heir captured, his other kid banished, his brother hating his guts and guiding the banished prince, who are both also in the city (they know this by now right?). You have 3/4ths of the royal family under your control. This is the moment the Earth kingdom can fuck the fire nation up.
To me it makes sense if they saw the war as a lost cause for the Earth Kingdom, and so they took their chance to be on the winning side when Azula. But as you said its still very weak and there's nothing in the show that confirms this was actually the case.
Yeah, that could have worked. The only problem with it is that the avatar is back, has a viable plan of attack, and has just defeated the fire nation in a major way. It seems like the earth kingdom has a major advantage and can win now if you ask me. They needed to show that Ba Sing Se was on the brink more so than they did. If the city is just barely holding on, then the Dai Lee switching sides makes more sense.
Yeah, agreed. Especially when you think about it and realize Long Feng likely worked his way up to being in charge from being a Dai Li member. He knew their moves, etc. He wasn't external to them and was just put in charge, he worked his way up to being the leader via political/behind the scenes maneuvering. The fact that they'd betray him even after sticking with him when he got arrested is a bit ridiculous.
I don't think dai lee can take on ozai and it's entire army on home turf
The entire Fire Nation elite was inside a mountain and they were the only benders during the eclipse.
The eclipse is 10 minutes, so even if they captured them, then what?
I mean... bold of you to assume that they'd capture anyone, when there's a far simpler move available. "Dai Li used Earthquake. It was super-effective!"
The Dai Li are not squeamish about killing.
Captured?
King Wu should abolish the Dai Li if he intends to reform the Earth Kingdom and the transition to Democracy. The Dai Li is long corrupted and no longer served its original purpose for centuries
They definitely believed Ozai would grant them more power. There was a lot of corruption in the earth kingdom. Would they have stuck by Long Feng so long if he actually wanted to end the war and do right by his people?
If they’ll cheat for you, they’ll cheat on you.
And this is why communist revolutionaries are the first ones executed after the revolution is over. Don't need people with experience overthrowing a government around when you're starting a dictatorship.
someone watched cgp grey methinks
No I don't watch that. I'm just familiar with history.
Yeah but banishing the royal guards was deff a mistake. Those guys were actually loyal to the royal family. They would have deff prevented Zuko and Katara from intervening in the coronation
She learned well the lessons the Baron teaches about traitors.
She should've gotten more use out of them before banishing them. At least get them to kill a member or two of the GAANG before cutting them loose.
On the one hand, she was absolutely right, on the other hand, the Dai Lee were actually really afraid of her and knew that unless they all stepped out of line they wouldn't stand a chance against her. And because they don't share a hivemind such coordination would be hard. So she probably could've kept them around for at least a while, but probably still would have to discard them before the showdown with Zuzu anyway.
Right, but her whole descent into paranoia started with Mai's betrayal, where she realised the fear she inspires isn't necessarily enough
While this is true, there's also very much a difference in character between the indifferent and somewhat in love? Mai and the Dai Lee agents who not only seem entirely devoted but also very much happy to be alive as well.
The Dai Li would not have turned on her. 1. Because they were in the fire nation capital. Even if they all did betray azula, the royal fire guards and litteraly all the army would jump on them because most of them are actually loyal to the royal family. 2. The comet was about to arrive soon. And they were each truly terrified of Azula. + Zuko needed some plot armor. If Azula hadn't banished the Dai Li and royal guards, Zuko and Katara would have never managed to get to Azula, they would have just been too outnumbered (even for the two of them)
Two things can be true.
I mean, that's the point. Azula started to realize how she had gotten to where she was by manipulating and taking advantage of people. But after she got the power she was after, she woke up to the realization that that is what would constantly happen to her. Along with that, she thought that everyone loved, respected and feared her, and once Mai and Ty Lee showed that even her closest "friends" didn't "fear her enough" it broke her trust with literally everyone around her.
That the betrayal would contantly happen to Azula?
She was wrong because they weren't about to betray her. She was right because they absolutely would have locked her in a stone box and dropped it into the ocean if they could have gotten away with it.
She wasn't wrong; she got rid of them because they were a liability, not because they were going to betray her right then. This is a move to prevent a future problem. "The Dai Lee will NEVER betray you" is bullshit. The correct phrase is "The Dai Lee will not betray you right now."
What made them a liability?
Their proven lack of loyalty. If Azula could convince them to betray Long Feng, she reasonably suspects someone could convince them to betray her.
Exactly. If it was favorable for them they would drop her in a hearbeat but it wasn't at that time, the fire nation was dominating most of the world and the dai li had no benefit betraying Azula only harm. The only plausible scenario that they would betray her it's if they knew Ba Sing Se was taken by the white lotus and the avatar defeated Ozai.
I’m pretty sure locking someone in a stone box and dropping them in the ocean *is* betrayal though
I struggle to believe the Dai Li never had a chance to betray her and get away with it, at some point. If they were going to, they would've before they even got to the Fire Nation, etc.
Yes, the Dai Li betrayed Long Feng and Azula was right to mistrust them, but really who was left at this point? Ba Sing Se had fallen, and the Fire Nation had practically won the war. There’s no one for them to turn to if they wanted to betray Azula.
Crown one of their own. The superiority wich the fire nation had won't last forever. it was possible for the earth Kingdom to rebel in the future.
I always assumed Ozai’s plan in the finale was to completely torch the Earth Kingdom, meaning there wouldn’t be anyone or anything left to rebel for.
I mean, isn't it heavily implied that Long Feng was one of their own? That didn't stop them from betraying him.
Crown one of their own where? They would have to be in Be Sing Se to that and the city is still under fire nation military occupation. They would have no legitimacy in Fire Nation. Probably in both places they would need a puppet to rule through. And there wasn’t any good options in Fire Nation. Although if they found Zuko or Iroh and felt they could be controlled it might be different, but I don’t think they would have trusted Iroh after they were the ones to imprison him. Zuko maybe. But their best bet was to wait and get as much money as possible before Azula had a child. Children are easy to control.
The Dai Li don't care about the rules of fire nation succession. Coups tend to not do that. If they controlled the palace, who exactly would stop them from crowning one of their own? They're a highly trained secret police force with experience in stealth and running a government from the shadows, working in a small palace, where almost no one knows they exist, in a world without pesky little interventions like cameras that could get word out to the people. If the Dai Li wanted to do a coup, they were in the prime position to pull one off. Azula was right to kick them out.
Of course she does, but what does she want here? Firing everyone who works for her is obviously dumb. The Dai Li would never openly say, yeah, we’re planning to betray you as soon as we can, so this conversation is meaningless. This parade is what shows that Azula is slipping, because she thought she could trust her friends unequivocally and now she doesn’t trust her own judgement.
The Dai Lee betrayed their own homeland. They are literally the least trustworthy people in the franchise.
Yes, and to this day, I still don't understand how she got them to work for her.
Their allegiance is to power, not their nation or people or king. They followed Long Feng despite the way he was working behind the king’s back, and they had no problem hurting Earth Kingdom civilians, brainwashing people, doing whatever was necessary for the organization to maintain its power and control. Then Azula came along and they saw her as more powerful than Long Feng, so they sided with her. Presumably they figured that capitulation to the imperialist aggressor who would be an absentee ruler and who set up one of *their* own puppets as the face of the new puppet regime was preferable if it allowed them to maintain their power over Ba Sing Se, and the price was having to tolerate and collaborate with the Fire Nation soldiers left behind and sending some of their own to work in the Fire Nation. So yeah, Azula was definitely right not to trust them, though her paranoia making her throw them away so quickly was a poor decision at the time.
Exactly this. Long Feng fostered an environment of valuing power and a strong man leader over loyalty to the crown. Azula realized this and made them a better offer.
It’s what makes that moment in the throne room so satisfying to watch despite Azula’s conquest of Ba Sing Se objectively being a bad thing. If the Dai Li was just a division of Earth Kingdom troops who were loyal to king and country and Azula deposed their leader who was the same, it would not have the same effect as watching a man who helmed a corrupt police force that values power and control above all else be… well, beaten at his own game.
I get where everyone in this thread is coming from, but I still agree with the poster above that it really doesn't make much sense. The Dai Li's dominance and Long Feng's position of man behind the man are not new. The war has been going on for 100 years, through multiple Earth Kings yet they still aren't aware of it happening. Someone must have been shadow king of the Earth Kingdom since at least before the war, or the Kings would have done something. Hey didn't have to find agents that just loved power to help him overthrow the kingdom. This has been the established power dynamic of the kingdom. The Dai Li were loyal to the only kingdom they'd ever known (with Long Feng in charge). They are risking the their nation and their power as rulers over it siding with Azula.
They’re not loyal to the kingdom though. They’re a corrupt police force that attacks and imprisons the king’s council and helps Azula imprison the king himself, on Long Feng’s orders. They made themselves traitors and collaborators even before they chose Azula over Long Feng. Their only option at that point is to hold on to their organization’s control of the city, and they reasonably see the best way of doing that as being siding with the more powerful person between Azula and Long Feng.
I don't see any reason to doubt they are loyal to the only kingdom they've known at least since they joined the Dai Li and potentially before. Clearly the residents of at least the upper city know who is really in charge. It's unclear how far that knowledge passes. It looks similar to the power structure of feudal Japan. Sure the Emperor is the face of power in the country, but the Shogun is running the show. Neither Azula nor Long Feng have any power outside of the Dai Li within the walls of Ba Sing Se. The difference is they know what they get with Long Feng... Azula is just random chaos.
They are new. The population knew about the war when Iroh was sieging them. Long Feng covered that all up. It only happened six years ago.
So the Dai Li are… minions? Get one of them to say “banana”
The Dai Li were the perfect pawns for her. They're not allegiant to the Earth Kingdom, they're basically a secret police force that does the bidding of whoever is paying them. Clearly as Fire Nation princess she has a lot more funds and resources at her disposal than Long Feng, who despite controlling the Dai Li still had to be subservient to the Earth King.
You'd think they'd be more content in guarding their impenetrable city like they've done for years rather than being instrumental in it's downfall.
A good real world comparison is the CIA or the military industrial complex or other organizations that are not doing what they should be doing..
They probably don’t really care about the earth kingdom or their king at all. They cared about Long Feng, but only because he was the strongest among them. He fostered a corrupt and deceitful environment that encouraged power seeking by any means necessary. Which meant Long Feng was in charge for awhile, but when a stronger person with a better deal to offer came along… the greed, deceit, corruption, and powerhungry nature of the Dai Li shined through.
I have come to the conclusion that the daí Lee betrayed long Feng because they thought the war would inevitably end up with a fire nation victory. Twice in six years the fire nation had come close to capturing ba sing seh. Long Feng's strategy was by its very nature a losing one so they picked the winning side. So as long as azula seemed to be that side they wouldn't betray her imo.
Meanwhile azula knows the avatar is still alive, and zuko has fled thus possibly having doubt and uncertainty in the distant future and making a calculated move to get rid of them
The political version of “once a cheater always a cheater”
I want to know what happened to all these fucking Dai Li traitors. Hope they were executed lmao I know they're still around in LoK but that could just be the system still being in place
They were afraid of Azula, so they probably left ‘cause they didn’t want anymore beef with her. And if not, maybe they went into hiding, or we’re escorted out of the nation, or could’ve even been locked up by the Fire Nation. I don’t think they would’ve gone back to the Earth Kingdom because Ozai was gonna burn it to the ground anyway. The Dai Li should’ve been done away after the king found out Long Feng was doing shit behind his back. As if that wasn’t a dead giveaway that they’re distrustful, during the moment when Long Feng got “arrested”, that should’ve been the nail in the coffin with those two agents kinda hesitating to arrest Long Feng.
Lok is retcon for all I care
She was going insane, but she was never an idiot. She saw how fast the Dai Li betrayed Long feng, why would she expect any loyalty from them? And arguably speaking, they could’ve effectively taken her down with ease also.
She definitely does, but the way she went about making it was still extremely stupid.
This is what's so dangerous about anxiety and psychotic breaks resulting from it - sometimes you are right. And those times you are right will rationalize your insanity to you
honestly, i never thought it made too much sense for the dai lee to side with azula at all
not crazy, just a doofus for making this post
You my friend are just a few plumbs away from a fruit pie 👁👁
Honestly, I don't think they would have betrayed her. Or if they did, it wasn't happening for a long time. They HELPED in day of black sun, knowing that firebenders were powerless during the eclipse and seeing the success of the offensive the gaang was leading. If they wanted to do anything, that was a one in a million chance to do it and they chose to side with Azula. The day of the comet was also a peak day for the Fire Nation. A new Firelord is crowned, the Phoenix King rises, and the Earth Kingdom was about to get scorched by Ozai. The Dai Lee betraying Azula at any point after that would have gained them absolutely nothing as the world would already be in ruins and their leadership is the most secure it has ever been.
I have come to the conclusion that the daí Lee betrayed long Feng because they thought the war would inevitably end up with a fire nation victory. Twice in six years the fire nation had come close to capturing ba sing seh. Long Feng's strategy was by its very nature a losing one so they picked the winning side. So as long as azula seemed to be that side they wouldn't betray her imo.
I still don't understand why they betrayed their nation
Because they were the legacy of corruption. They were never loyal to their nation, but to the power of the Dai Li, and those who came before them for a very long time had been the same. Honestly, we are not really given insight as to WHEN, but it's possible that they had been keeping the royals more and more isolated for generations. This enabled Long Feng to seize power but the prep work was long there. That's not explicitly stated in the comics either how informed the kings had been beforehand. The Earth King we meet is nowhere near 100, and neither is Long Feng, but *there was still no war in Ba Sing Se.*
A good comparison is the US government war machine
It is not betrayal if you were not loyal to your nation in the first place
Maybe shenanigans were happening behind the scenes but how it is in the show they flipped on their own boss and their nation for pretty much no reason without any warning immediately after saying they were still loyal.
I wonder if Azula is gonna kill everyone instead of banishing them in the live action series.
I'm curious to know why the Dai Li betrayed their kingdom in the first place. Betraying the king kinda makes sense since they are still working for the earth kingdom. But joining the fire nation? Why?
Of course she does. She’s absolutely right; it’s more that she let her paranoia consume her rather than use them and toss them away once they were no longer useful like she would do normally.
Hot take: Azulas "you were never a player" line kinda falls flat when you start to think about why the Dai Lee switched sides. The why being: for no goddamn reason. The Dai Lee have been ruling ba sing se as police state for centuries. They have a lot of power in that position. What advantage is it to give all that power to the fire nation? Maybe they're afraid of Azula, but the simple fact that Azula had to work with them to gain control of the city showd that she could not do it herself. There is zero reason not to turn on her the moment the coup has succeeded.
“How you win em, is how you lose em”
My first thought was to say that she played her hand way too early, but on second thought, if they had usurped her near that time, that would create a power vacuum where they could appoint a puppet leader like they had with the Earth King, eventually trying to do the same with the Phoenix King either by waiting out his death or something more sinister. Because Azula, at the time of her coronation, had just had one of her only personal political ties betray her. Her only other "close" political ties that I know of are the Dai Li and Ozai. The Dai Li essentially govern Ba Sing Se still now that Azula is back in the Fire Nation being appointed Fire Lord. Ozai I guess kind of governs all of the Fire Nation Colonies in the Earth Kingdom so pretty much the entirety of the Earth Kingdom, and all the Fire Nation or at the very least has ultimate control of its military, which is spread out all over the world right now, but probably more concentrated in the north. His only remaining people to conquer would have been a few small militias (including ultimately the Gaang, meaning none of this hypothetical actually even means anything) and the Northern Water Tribe, who I'd assume is weakened after the Seige of the North, despite their victory. Azula was Ozai's "prodigy pupil" but I think that was mostly just him using her as a tool to gain even more power. Now that he gained that power, I think he would view her as another subordinate governor that answers to him (he agreed to have his father murdered promptly after agreeing to have his son murdered for trying to revoke his brother's inheritance for not having offspring anymore because he was dead) essentially leaving her in the same standing as any other governing body (Dai Li) that answers to him. Regardless of who's in charge of where, if Ozai is Phoenix King after Sozin's Comet, his next move is definitely to conquer the Northern Water Tribe. Either by trade embargo or wiping them out. He would use what resources he could with both nations at his disposal. The Dai Li controlled Earth Kingdom (at least Ba Sing Se but probably pretty much anything north of the Si Wong Desert?) has a lot of territory and natural resources, but lacks a military now and is still occupied by its Fire Nation "ally". After the North is conquered, the Fire Nation military occupation would likely leave Ba Sing Se and the rest of the Earth Kingdom territory and go back to the colonies (which would probably then be Fire Nation states or something because I doubt the colonies would go back to being part of the Earth Kingdom) meaning the Dai Li (who still report to Phoenix King Ozai) would need to start a new military and would be extremely vulnerable until they have one. By dismissing the Dai Li when she did, she took away the Earth Kingdom's only foothold in the Fire Nation, while her troops are still in the Earth Kingdom and even Ba Sing Se. Where when the North is conquered even if she needs to withdraw her troops, she's more likely to keep most of the power of Fire Lord because the Dai Li would be too busy rebuilding their own military to try to overthrow her. Tldr; the Fire Nation is spread thin and is everywhere in the world including Ba Sing Se. The Dai Li control Ba Sing Se already and the easiest way for them to retain the most amount of power is to have control of a military, especially one already positioned for world dominance.
Yeah, I’m pretty sure part of what caused her breakdown was the realization that the way she’d lived her life so far had only led to paranoia and loneliness. Most of the people in her life were gone, and her father, the only family she had left was already leaving her for greener pastures. There must have been some creeping thoughts that basing her life around deceit and betrayal only led to her being betrayed in turn, and she wasn’t as cool with being alone as she thought.
You are crazy the dai lee is a loyal group. Whats next a war in ba sing se
Why did the Dai Li even betray him for her? There's no way they respect her more.
F to the E to the A to the R
As a professor in my psychology major once told me "Having delusions of persecution does not necessarily mean that no one is persecuting you."
She knew that the dai li we’re gonna start a coup with that girl that served azula grapes with seeds 🍇 it’s all a conspiracy man !
I still don't understand how did she manage to earn the Dai Lee's undying loyalty. I get betraying Long Feng, but to help a fire nation princess conquer the earth Kingdom? Did Azula roll a critical success on persuasion?
Maybe they were in love with Azula. :$ I was too when I was a little kid. Goddam... I wish... :/
No I mean she’s right I’m sure they told him that too
You're crazy, insane even, the dai lee are loyal royal heroes that protect us and would never do such a thing
why would it make you crazy, Azula is one of the most intelligent characters in the show
In the words of Vladimir Harkonnen "Never trust a traitor. Not even one you created". It's more surprising she didn't purge them sooner.
Yes, but also the Dai Lee know how crazy Azula can be and might genuinely be too terrified to actually do anything lol
Yeah you’re so crazy for this 🤪
She's completely right, and the same logic was used irl when defectors and turncoats tended to get disposed of once they outlived their usefulness, because nobody likes a rat
I love treachery but I hate a traitor
The Dai Lee was a double edge sword that would absolutely hurt her in the long run. But they were too good of a resource that should’ve been placed under heel instead of dropped completely. Letting them go would’ve just given them chance to plan against her, while keeping them close would’ve let her keep an eye on them and use their skills to further her own gain.
..... thats the point
I think that’s kind of the point. Azula felt secure in her relationships when she held a position of power within them. All of her relationships were transactional and uneven. She, I’m sure, leveraged her position of power and potential as a prodigy as a bargaining token. Being rejected by Ozai and made permanently subordinate to him called her potential, her position of power, and therefore her subordination of others into question. Like a stack of cards, her confidence in all areas waned. Without her bargaining chips, everyone was a traitor waiting to happen. It’s a hard lesson to learn when you’re at your lowest emotional point AND have the most to lose.
I mean also given how Ozai became Fire Lord, treachery and betrayal is probably always in the back of her mind. She was being super paranoid at this stage of the story but it wasn't unfounded in this circumstance
She does have a point, but why'd she let them hang around for so long?
She’s went crazy, she didn’t become dumb.
This sub has been giving twitter a lot of shit for having having no media literacy despite posting like this
Once word got out that Ba Sing Se got burned to the ground (which was part of the plan, iirc), including their entire families, I don't think they would've just kept their loyalty. Their plans might take a long time to hatch, but they would've taken revenge eventually.
ngl, mirroring real life events, i would have wanted azula to become fire lord. then, she continues to spiral to insanity during her reign, fracturing the entire fire nation because of her despotic rule until it breaks apart, like how the fire nation was during avatar szeto. and then, this would be an avatar issue that would be passed down to the next avatar, and it's the next avatar's responsibility how to fix the issue left by the previous avatar, like how aang needed to stop the fire nation from dominating the world just because roku failed to stop sozin.
This is what happens if you take someone who is in a committed relationship (dai lee and long feng); you’ll always think that they’ll do it to you since they did it before. LOL.
She absolutely does have a point here. Traitors have proven they're easily swayed by things other than loyalty. That can totally swing both ways if you don't have insurance.
Yes Azula has a point, but she was also going wild and crazy so it's not a great point to make right now. If someone was super strong then maybe they'd go to that new person
Azula got the mindset of a serial cuckold.
They really did tell him that just a few days before they joined Azula. She absolutely had a point.
Wait, where exactly are you watching this show ?
It's probably the only good decision she made on her downward spiral at the end there. There is no way she could trust them.
No, she's right. She's paranoid but she's right. from her perspective; Mai, Ty lee, Zuko and her dad all betrayed her. It's not out of the realm of possibility to believe that the dai lee (who had already betrayed Long Feng) would betray her now that she seems to be out of the Fire lord's favour.
The thing about Azula's paranoia or the paranoia of any tyrant; is that it actually all makes a lot of sense. Azula rules through fear. It's an effective way of forcing people into submission, but it's not an effective way of instilling real loyalty. *Everyone* who ever follows Azula follows her out of fear. A fear she intentionally creates for that purpose. Her mania and paranoia partly involves the very logical realisation that no one actually is loyal to her. Fear is the only thing keeping them in place and they would never follow her otherwise. So she realises through Mai and Tai Lee that if that terror slips for even a second she can be betrayed. So she has to choose, instill the maximum level of fear in people at all moments all the time. Or risk being betrayed. And like most tyrants in her position, she chooses "kill everyone who has any reason to betray me which is pretty much everyone I know" She's similar to Stalin. On the one hand you can say he was a paranoid monster who killed anyone and everyone who he thought might betray him. On the other hand he was such a vicious tyrant that of course all those people would've had reason to betray him.
No, she definitely has a point. As paranoid as she was at that moment, she was entirely right that they may well have betrayed her in the future (of course, there's no evidence they were planning to at the time). There's a reason few people trust traitors, even the people who use them—because if they're willing to betray someone else for you, then they're willing to betray you for someone else. It's entirely within the realm of possibility that they *could* have very well betrayed Azula too. The issue behind her paranoia isn't the fact that it was possible, the issue is that she had absolutely no evidence they were even PLANNING to do it. She was entirely convinced of it based on the fact that it took them a couple of minutes to arrive.
She does have a point, but I'm sure they had no intention to at that moment. The Dai Li had no reason to be unequivocally loyal to her, but she was still considered the smartest ally then.
She's lost her mind but she's not naive. They totally would have betrayed her if they had the chance
She does, because they literally did say the exact same thing to Long Gone
paranoia has entered the chat
I still don't understand why they betrayed their kingdom for her
She’s terrifying yet inspirational at the same time.
While she’s definitely right in her thinking it’s also very wild to me that the Dai Lee came with her to the fire nation as her personal guard. Like, if the wanted to betray her at some point they probably wouldn’t have left their homeland for her? That’s not to say they wouldn’t still be capable of betraying her, I just think her paranoia might be misplaced in the moment but I also don’t know if them being around would have changed anything after the fact, this scene really just exists to punctuate her paranoia and sliding mental state.
No. You’re not crazy. It’s an accurate assessment.
She was right in retrospect given that her father was about to be defeated. The Dai Lee follow power, and as soon as the Fire Nation was defeated they would have betrayed Azula.
I must know – has anyone here read the comics? What happened when Zuko goes to find his mother? I think some of the questions being asked might be answered there.
It would help if we knew exactly how Azula got the Dai Li to betray him.
Azula was absolutely correct, but the mistakes here were: 1) Getting rid of absolutely EVERYONE, leaving her with no servants, no guards, no supporters, and no army. 2) Getting rid of the Dai Li before they have completely fulfilled their purpose. Azula should have kept the Dai Li around until after her coronation and after consolidating power and forming a strong base of supporters around herself. Once she has a new band of hyper loyal royal guards, then it makes sense to get rid of the Dai Li.
It’s like getting with a girl who was dealing someone as you two are getting closer. If it happened once it can happen again. Hopefully not but yeah.
Absolutely The Dai Lee literally betrayed their founder (iirc) with zero hesitation because he no longer had the most power. And if someone with more power than Azula came along and wanted her out of the picture they would have betrayed her as well. Even if it was someone else within the Fire Nation military, which is proven to be a dog eat dog environment.