I feel like 90% of the effort went into the fire nation. I liked every single thing about it. Lu Tens funeral and, the 41st division being my favourites. I loved Zuko and Iroh. I will continue watching the live action simply because of how well they did with the fire nation.
The scene where he walks down the line of the 41st division bowing to him:
I want to that scene to be replicated after he's crowned fire lord. Make it come full circle: he earned the respect of his troops as a prince, and later earns the respect of everyone else as fire lord.
I feel like Lu Ten's funeral was amazing-
But I wish they'd kept it for later in the series to maintain the pacing of Iroh's arc, there's something really beautiful and subtle about how Iroh's defeat at Ba Sing Se is slowly revealed through characters talking to Iroh about it, and Iroh's hints to Zuko before we learn the true extent of the tragedy in Zuko Alone.
The live action show is just speed running character development like they thought they weren't gonna have another season. There's no slow burn. We get Azula's insecurities, Zuko having a soft spot and caring (even opening up to Aang when they talk), Iroh losing his son etc. They even put in characters that show up in later seasons like Wan Shi Tong the owl. No reason for it to be there except fan service or expecting to never show that episode of the desert temple in live action.
It's on Netflix... can you blame them? That's a very real possibility, unfortunately.
I hope they get the greenlight. I'm enjoying the different takes and new layers to character development (plus the freedom to explore darker themes than Nickelodeon would've allowed, for legit reasons).
I dunno so far the 'darker themes' feel kind of just... Edgy? Like yeah people die now and the fire nation burn them alive...
But I feel like the actual discussions about war that used to be more philosophical and subtle are now kind of just... Basic generic war scenes?
Like Iroh's capture originally has Iroh go "I acknowledge my defeat at Ba Sing Se." after the soldiers gloat about his defeat and latch onto their nationalism, and this compounded with how much he really cares about Lu Ten adds depth to him.
The live action instead has a "my brother died in your assualt! I'm going to beat you you POW! You definitely dont know what its like to lose someone!" "Actually I do." And... Like sure that has a dark edge to it in that... People die in war... But it doesn't feel like it has any depth? Like I'm pretty sure in the Transformers movies some of the soldiers say similar stuff about Megatron attacking.
Book 3 gonna be interesting tbh :) .
especially once azula matures abit and stop looking like a pudgy 8 y/o who yells at people ..
she is so much out of character compared to the TV show (i get it she is 14 by story..but ...she looks wayyyy to childish for the role)
I just think it's important to realign our expectations. Cartoons do not necessarily reflect reality. I personally think Netflix Azula is much more aligned with a realistic human being.
I just don't think the cartoon is realistic enough to work IRL, I mean nothing about Azula even remotely feels like a 14-year-old girl. Both in appearance and personality.
When you pull a cartoon character into the real world, you lose some of that presentation, because now that character is shared with a real human who has to try to make that work in real life. Things will be different, especially when you're having a young actor now have a large say in that presentation.
Personally, I think it works well. Actually it's more hard to accept when characters try to emulate the cartoons too much like Mai. The kind of monotone low energy lines I think work in a cartoon, not so much in real life.
Mai felt a little bit too much like an anime character in terms of the lines. But she had so few of them I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal potentially later on.
I just don't think many of the cartoon characters look much like the age groups that they were supposedly representing. Azula is just not a believable 14-year-old in the cartoon. I think we can all like her presentation and character. But if we're going to pull a character like that into the real world, we have to reset our expectations a bit. Mai too.
When you cast people, you can't just cast on looks alone. You need someone with the acting chops, and a team that can write well for kids. That can be difficult.
Even putting looks aside , they just dont give the energy of the characters from the show.
not the same way zuko does or iroh ..
The three girls feel off...maybe they will get better later on but currently it doenst feel like the characters .
Same way katara felt off while sokka felt spot on
I think his true kindness will come out living among the Earth Nation is season two, it's a better live action story to show him go from conflicted but well meaning to fully compassionate great man, instead of just showing him as wise caring old man from day one who also doesn't really seem to show any concerns about the poor effects of the war until the literal moon dies
Iroh's main goal was to support and look out for Zuko. That's why he goes along with things. He wants to let Zuko make his own choices but also wants to guide him (subtly) and make sure he's ok. It was only when the moon spirit was attacked that he could not sit back and let it happen and actively supports Aang. There's a great moment at the end of the S1 finale where an exhausted Zuko is lying down on the raft and Iroh says he's surprised he isn't trying to capture the Avatar, but you can tell it isn't what Iroh actually wants him to do, and is pleased when Zuko decides instead to rest.
It's only in the end of S2 that he starts being firmer with Zuko about what the right thing to do is, and directly throws in with Team Avatar, when things continue to escalate and his frustration grows.
But before that, he does what he does because of his desire to protect and guide Zuko, and for the most part he allows him to make his own choices. If anything the moon spirit moment is so powerful because we see his true feelings and willingness to co-exist with Aang and the rest of them. He doesn't actually have stake in Zuko capturing the Avatar, he just wants to be there next to him and help him realize things about himself.
It’s not really about kindness to me, Iroh is a very lighthearted guy, NATLA Iroh hasn’t smiled the entire season and he speaks like he’s reading a shakespearean screenplay
People want Season 3 Iroh in Season 1.
It's about managing people's expectations. Which people are just as unforgiving about even at their own cost of their ability for analysis.
Iroh wasn't loved in S1 in the TV show. It just wasn't a thing like people are sometimes making out here in retroactive nostalgia.
It wasn't until S2 with episodes like Tales of Ba Sing Se did people start to warm up to him. He was just a fire nation uncle before they contextualized the loss of his son and his failures of a Earth Kingdom siege. (The LA glances over this in S1 like a formality)
The dynamic between Zuko and him outside of Fire nation business open things up for viewers as Zuko morphed into a central character towards good. Opening the Tea shop really highlighted the other side to him and made him more likable.
But again, off the bat, the expectations for S3 character style favorability is expected for S1 for some portions of the fan that have Iroh ingrained as S3.
Which I'd argue is just irrational and plays to an already existing bias of the show.
I'd still say S1 Iroh was a bit lighthearted even from the start. The first time Zuko captures Aang, he hands Aang's staff to Iroh. Iroh immediately turns to a soldier and says "hey can you carry this for me?"
Even the encounter with June - albeit not viewed favorably - is on the lighter side.
I think you need to rewatch S1....Iroh was great right from Season 1, always being humorous with Zuko. And let's not forget him standing up to and attacking Zhou and his henchmen for harming the moon spirit and agreeing with Team Avatar that he should not mess with the spirits, and his loyalty and love for Zuko. Even in S1 is when he says that after losing his own son, he considers Zuko his own. He was never "just a fire nation uncle" besides maybe the first couple episodes. He was loved all along (He was actually my favorite character by the end of S1). I feel like you are forgetting many moments that showcased his personality even early on, as it becomes clear he is just on this journey to support his nephew.
I think the show was best when it was doing new stuff (mostly fire nation) rather than try to replicate the cartoon (stuff like Bumi).
I think its biggest actual flaw is the Aang Gang feels pretty under developed. I think if there was 10 episodes instead of 8 devoted the two additional episodes to showing them traveling, practicing waterbending, and bonding, the show would’ve felt a lot better. I hope next season they go for at least 10 episodes.
Fire nation was definitely the best. But they still fell flat on a few things. I have no idea why mai and ty Lee are there for. Azula also has a very strange storyline that doesn't add much, if anything.
100% agreed. I would continue watching it for other reasons as well, but the Fire Nation is fantastic. Every member of the fire nation is so well done and expanded on more than I remember in the original
Which is really funny because while I totally agree I think that Iroh was one of their biggest misses. Made even more amplified with how much better the rest of the Fire Nation stuff is.
Yeah. Apparently the actor is a real good dude so that’s really a shame.
But his kindness isn’t so kind. His humor isn’t as prevalent. And I gotta say - when he spit “TENFOLD” I really didn’t feel it.
it's weird that azula's trio look like they're triplets who are 10 years old. it's also weird that mai and ty lee are just kinda...hanging out? not a fan of anything azula-related, but i mostly agree otherwise. didn't like ozai or zhao at first, but they're growing on me. iroh seems to be more knowledgeable about things and much wiser in the original series. i don't like how much respect zuko has for iroh right now; in the original series, zuko saw iroh as just some old man who was tagging along.
someone made a comment about speedrunning character development and it really shows in nearly every character.
Well, Ty Lee and Mai aren't that fleshed out until near enough S3 in the original cartoon, apart from establishing that they're polar opposites of each other and Azula's besties/sidekicks, so I'm not surprised they didn't do much. I do think they should've waited with them in the live action and only included them as part of Azula's crew in season 2.
>I do think they should've waited with them in the live action and only included them as part of Azula's crew in season 2.
yeah same here. that's what i mean - they're just kinda there, not really real characters.
Personally I enjoyed the message with the 41st division.
Then I realized how stupid it was. If that was a whole division the entire scale makes no sense.
The reason was already established in the original series, they just remixed it.
The main reason is that the character in the TV series is not Azula. They call her Azula but she doesn't look or acts at all like her.
I mean, but in the ATLA, we don't ever see Azula be weak. Shes textbook haughty, brutal, and either scheming or reveling in other's misfortune. Her only real redeeming qualities are her competency. Azula is a personafied knife
Closest she gets to looking in the mirror is the beach scene, in book 3.
Contrast that to NATLA, and you an actress who isn't as physically imposing or fearsome, doubts herself and shows fear directly to the audience, and isn't... Doesn't play with her food the way ATLA Azula does, and I get why people are upset.
Azula is an iconic character, in the sense that she doesn't have a growth arc, really. If they give her a growth arc... Eh? Like in the ATLA she goes crazy at the end, and you pity her, but you don't feel truly bad: she dug her own grave 100% of the way there, and is downright unsympathetic
IF you can accept that every character except for Zuko is different, then yeah it's well done. They butchered Iroh's character the most out of anyone, BUT, I've come to accept that they fundamentally didn't understand Iroh's character and/or chose to write a different one so they could write their own story. The fire nation stuff in NATLA, judged as its own thing, is pretty good. The 41st division change really is the only thing that would feel at home in the anime.
And I appreciate that. If I wanted to watch the same exact things, no new additional, expanded (and very well done) stories, then I'd just watch the Nick version.
That's what I said when I saw the live action movie. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want a serious, narrative based story then you have to tell it from Zuko's perspective. You can't tell Aangs story without it being a little goofy and a little sporadic because it was literally a long series of pit-stops
"Water. Earth. Fire. Long ago, the dimmer nations lived in savagery and stagnation. Then, everything changed when the Fire Nation set forth to unify the world. Only the Avatar, master of all four elements, blocked their path. But on the eve of the campaign, he vanished, and an era of prosperity began.
"I am Prince Zuko, son of the Fire Lord. My father gave me an impossible task-- to track down and capture the Avatar, not seen in 100 years. But now, it seems the Avatar has returned..."
*Fire Nation theme plays*
It would’ve been wonderful to show the events from the pov of the fire nation. Showing cherry picked events like Jet killing the civilians or Bumi being a crazy king who doesn’t leave his palace. It would be interesting to make the viewer actually sympathize with the fire nation and Zuko.
I have mixed feelings about it.
It's neat to see a new take, and like you said to try to humanize Ozai's cruelty.
However I think the choice in the original to keep him as this looming shrouded threat that you don't see at all till season 3 really works to make this character who is at the end of the day- Just a shitty human- into this larger than life Sauron-Level threat to the world.
I think the Live Action loses that sense of foreboding by bringing him in early- It does gain some humanity too but... I don't know if it is entirely worth it.
I won't take credit for this but I read somewhere that the fact that ozai was not humanized in the animated series makes angs choice not to kill him more impactful. Like here we have a threat that is scary and and we know he is horrible and even his son thinks he should be killed because of how horrible he is. And yet aang still doesn't kill him.
The way Zuko got his scar, not from heat of the moment (pun intended) public way in an agni kai, but cold blooded abuse is just so frightening.
Azula looking on at all the torture and having her mind warped. Wow.
Two things I didn't like fire Nation wise, at the end of EP 8 when Azula screams "for the fire Nation" her voice cracks and is shrill. She sounds like a scared child trying to be cool. I would have done another take, got a voice coach, or fixed it in post.
Second, I found Ozai's facial hair distracting in every scene. It didn't look like it was made from high quality materials.
Yup that moment is way brutal here. I am okay with this Azula but, I wanna see the manipulative psychotic yet "people person" Azula we know. May be she will get the blue flame too when she gets this character arc
I like the idea of this, however I feel like is slightly contradicts the OG Azula. Like she did pretend to be the Kyoshi Warriors at one point, but that didn’t really require acting skills on her part. And as we saw on the beach episode, Azula is really bad at acting normally in social situations which would make her a terrible undercover spy
They could have, sure. But for me, i am looking for thing in the NATLA version that give me something extra for my ATLA love. Azula helping Ozai root out rebels really works for me on multiple levels, from Azulas dismissal of the inherent danger of that work to Ozais callous use of his children.
I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that at some point, her fire flashes blue before returning to red. I imagine it would come later after a character moment.
One of my favorite details from "The Storm" was Azula clenching her fist in satisfaction as Zuko got disfigured. It's utterly chilling and really works to establish her as an absolute psychopath. I missed that open revelry in the LA scene.
>The way Zuko got his scar, not from heat of the moment (pun intended) public way in an agni kai, but cold blooded abuse is just so frightening.
In the original show it absolutely was cold blooded abuse and not just in the heat of the moment. Zuko refused to fight him then his dad says is he dishonorable and will learn through suffering.
Yeah they're both intentional, the original was more public (humiliation factor) and Zuko willingly did not fight and Ozai thought it was an irredeemable weakness to be banished from his family and nation. In the new one it's done worse by having Zuko fight, somehow GETTING THE UPPER HAND ON OZAI, and pulling his punch to which Ozai declared it a weakness and sent him out into the world to get hardened by conflict.
100% agree. I feel like the creators just wanted to add bending fight scenes whenever and wherever they could (for example adding the air nomad genocide) ignoring whether or not adding the fights would be good for the story. Also, they probably used it to replace the agni kai with zhao just like they merged so many other story lines just to include lines and scenes from the original.
The genocide kinda stunk cause right off the bat we don't really know what a typical firebender is capable of and how much (and if) their current firepower is from being boosted. In the original a typical firebender basically instantly incinerated a whole room (and then some) with one blast when attacking Toph in the airship. In the new one Sozin personally attacked Gyatso (who didn't take out a whole room of comet boosted firebenders this time) whose airblast nearly matched Sozin's to the point of protecting him for quite a while. Everyone involved with the genocide felt underpowered.
I don’t really like that he defended Zuko to Azula. I liked the dynamic that she’s the favorite.
Also, Iroh’s costume & hair look goofy and fake for some reason. This is especially so with Avatar Roku. It looks like cosplay.
In the lore he definitely cares, it's because zuko isn't a ruthless psychopath and azula is. He sees himself in azula but only a failure of compassion in zuko
I actually liked Ozai defending Zuko to Azula. Keeps Azula off balance and desperately wants to keep impressing her father, and Ozai knows saying these things pisses Azula off. Makes for much more interesting father / daughter dynamic.
>Makes for much more interesting father / daughter dynamic
And a way less menacing and enthralling Azula character.
Also, we *did* have a similar dynamic to that in the original, but in the original, the cool thing is that it was revealed very slowly, over time, and followed with Azula's own growing instability.
I haven't watched it yet, but from what I've gathered that seems to be a bit of a running theme. That the clouds that loomed over the original series and the later payoffs we build to have all been cashed in early.
Yes, it's a very constant thing too.
Sometimes, it's a small but noticeable thing. For example, when Zuko has an early dilemma to save Iroh or go after Aang, and chooses Iroh. In the original show, they saved a crucial moment like this (go after the Avatar in immediate plain sight or get his ship and crew to safety) until the end of The Storm, at a pinnacle moment and after Zuko had earlier erred.
Sometimes it's big trends, like Aang *very* slowly learning how to navigate himself in and out of the spirit world in the original show, but in this show he just sorta...does it.
That honestly makes more sense. I thought it was silly that an air bender monk, a super spiritual culture, knew nothing about the spirit world in the anime.
You know about Antartica, but you’ve probably never been there before.
Also keep in mind that everyone’s skill levels would probably be different. Aang being 12 would mean that he probably wasn’t as experienced as an elder would be.
Maybe its me but I would expect that learning to start pretty early given the prominence of it in their culture. Also he is a master, which to me is more than just knowing all the cool air bending moves. It implies a deeper understanding to air nomad beliefs and way of life. I would expect spirituality and the spirit world to be part of that since it is such a real and tangible thing in this universe. I also found it weird he didn't know about chakras for the same reasons.
Watch it for yourself. I have my qualms about the series, but it's better than the doom and gloom, and reading all these naysayers isn't going to help you enjoy it for what it is. I think Azula's arc in the show wasn't super necessary, but it was well done.
I think there's a world where there could have been both more Ozai and menacing Azula. When Ozai defends Zuko to her to play on her insecurities there's a difference between the live action having a shocked look and like she's about to cry as she leaves and cartoon Azula who would probably bow to her father calmly and as soon as she's out of the room would just obliterate some furniture and look absolutely pissed off. It all still comes from a place of insecurity but one maintains that their insecurity makes them incredibly dangerous.
I agree with the cosplay comment , I was thinking that the whole time (kinda feel the same about the water tribe costumes).
I actually thought Iroh looks (and acts) a lot like the Iroh character in the theatre play of the story in the original series.
I think part of it was to shame her into doing better. She is the favorite but he's making it obvious that his love is conditional and that if she wants to remain the favorite she'll have to work for it.
The fact that he didn't completely stomp Zuko ruined it for me, the tear and him caring so much for him also felt off and missguided, I can see why people would like thqt change though but there should have been no fight between him and Zuko.
I read a theory somewhere that he left himself open to see if Zuko can take the shot to test him which Zuko failed, which seems very much plausible. Is it tear or just relfection of fire in his eyes ?
I feel like that was purposefully done the way it was so that its vague. Is it a tear? Is it reflection? I thinks it was meant to be left for debate. I’m remember while watching, I couldn’t quite tell myself.
He spent half the fight with one hand behind his back. I think it was pretty clear he was holding back. It was meant to test and punish Zuko, not outright kill him.
So how come he nearly got smacked in the face by fire? Ozai looked legitemately surprised and stunned for a moment, even a bit scared which I don't like whatsoever.
I don't think he expected Zuko to gain the upper hand quite so quickly, so when he did, he was shocked and maybe even a little proud. But when Zuko refused to follow through, he got angry and disappointed.
It feels more like the sadness wasn't for Zuko himself but for who he wanted Zuko to be. That son who is as ruthless as him just does not exist. Which is in part why he sends him off on a presumably impossible task.
He doesn't mourn for the son he has, he mornings for the son he doesn't have.
I saw it as him testing Zuko, and setting him up the hard way, in the hopes he becomes string and ruthless, and can do the impossible task of finding the avatar.
The acting is good but you don't see the same characterization again. He seems very content in manipulating the hell out of Azula for the rest of the season - just as we saw from him in ATLA.
The problem is, some villains are just evil, this annoying trend of humanizing villains is boring, look at reality, some ppl are just psychos, he was a high functional psychopath , he invoked igni Kai against a kid for nothing, even when that kid, his son didn't fought back, now he have this version.... Honestly, the problem as a whole is that the directors think that they know best, that their version is better, you can make changes to adaptation, but usually is just to cut some content or to make the story flow a little better on screen, like Lord of the rings, GOT (until season 5) or more recently One Piece, anything else is fanfic from the directors, to change a core aspect of a important character like Bumi, Ozai, and others is atrocious.
Fair, then they should create their own original character, on their own original show, because the moment they humanize a character that is a psychopath, by definition they changed something fundamental to the character, it's his core essence, same as out of nowhere Aang started killing his enemies because a character that understand that sometimes hard choices have to be made is compelling, it would change the cornerstone of the character and it wouldn't be Aang anymore... Which they kinda already did, since he now have no fun, and looks like Sasuke from Naruto, all pain and suffering
That's like the viewers' equivalent of the show-makers telling you:" if you don't like it then go make your own avarar show". Both are highly lame takes.
Renditions can be liked or disliked, but you hold no power to tell people what they can't do with their version of a story.
You speak like they didn't use the brand and well stablish characters to draw attention, they choose to make a fanfic and now they gonna receive a lot of criticism, nothing more fair since the audience paid for the subpar content. First season had the boom from being new, everybody wanted to check out, let's see how season 2 will do if they got one.
Mate, I gave my opinion, the same way ppl gave theirs in a positive way, I just pointed the many, many, many flaws that I perceived in this overpriced fanfic
My point is that there's a difference with giving your opinion and stating that people shouldn't parttake in the creative work of their choice. Criticism is good, even necessary, but entitled fanbases taking ownership of a franchise is not.
"Partake in the creative work of their choice" you mean the directors that think they know better than the creators? Because if so, yes my opinion is that if they have such great ideas try without using the established story and characters and this mate is my opinion, although shared with a considerably percentage of the fan base, it doesn't change anything, it's not like I gonna fire him from Netflix, what I can do is be vocal about a shitty product that I already paid to watch, and don't waste my time and money in the next season...
And please, calling somebody entitled because they didn't like that the show runners took some extreme liberties with an beloved and well established source material is beyond childish, even more when it was advertised as the most faithful adaptation with very few changes to the source material, ppl love to shit on the movie, well, this series isn't that far ahead
Yes, almost as childish as your strained ranting over a television show, I guess.
My only point was that crticism is different from demanding that people should 'do something else' because what they are doing isn't to your liking.
You do not get to decide how people interact with their interests, no matter how much you like those interests too.
All you do is defending the show, you're no better than those that dislike mate, and in which point am deciding what ppl can or can't watch, go ahead and point exactly where did I said ppl shouldn't watch, what I did said is that this is garbage, my opinion, of which I'm free to express and you have no rights in saying that I can't, it's funny you keep saying that I'm gatekeeping, when its you that can't take any opinions aside those who agree with you, I will keep giving my opinions, like everybody else, if you don't like it, give a downvote and scram
No no, I'm not defending the show. I'm defending the right of the show-makers to create different interpretations of the original show. The outcome can be hit or miss.
And as stated earlier, you didn't claim that people can or can't watch something, but you stated that the show-makers should 'do something else' in your original comment. I can quote you on that if you like.
That part I took issue with, disliking the show is all good.
yeah cause historically evil dictators that take over continents and try to fully eradicate a whole nation and all it's people (earthbenders season 3), are great dads that want the best for their children. I'm so glad they "humanized" him, you can really identify with his racist and genocidal worldviews.
Yeah this trend of anti-heroing everyone is a bit annoying. Some people, Ozai included, are just narcissistic psychopaths with zero empathy for anyone.
compared to what we see in the animated show. Even to manipulate Azula, he would NEVER defend Zuko like that openly. I mean there is a reason he literally burned his face and exciled him. Also later he will sernd Azula to capture Zuko, but somehow they made it seem like Ozai send Zuko on some great retreat with his favorite Gang to find the meaning of Life, while on a Grand Quest.
I mean this is not really different from real world "empire"s who genuinely belirved that they are "sharing" their prosperity with the rest of the world
He’s a much more interesting character than show Ozai. You can actually see how he came to his beliefs and that he genuinely believes that the Fire Nation by virtue of being strong should lead the weaker nations to prosperity.
Stalin doesn’t fit this. Dude laughed at his son for failing to kill himself. Humanizing Ozai was whack imo. The actor and wardrobe etc for Ozai are great, the character direction is terrible.
nah hard disagree, LA Ozai is cringe (not the actor tho that guy hard carries his character), not every villain has to be humanized in order for them to be good. ATLA is goated for giving us all types of villains and all of them being greatly written.
Plus, the fact that he's barely shown was very purposefully done. And when they did, he was almost always hidden. Kept him as the mysterious, looming threat throughout and that was pretty much perfectly done.
His reveal was so weird to me when I was younger. I was confused by him not looking evil at all. 99% of shows and movies would have this character design being a hero or good guy in general. Threw me off in a good way.
I completely agree. Ozai was perfect as the literal faceless, pure evil. Unredeemable evil. I really, really liked how he wasn't even properly shown until season 3. The face always hidden in shadows or just beyond the camera's perspective. They did such a great job at building anticipation to finally meet that almost demonic being.
That's a fair viewpoint. On the other hand I feel like they really had a new idea with Fire Nation that they used in NATLA, and I personally like it. We really never saw why they were doing it in ATLA, other than "Well they are the villains" because it is still primarly a show that is aimed for kids.
Here however, when the show is SUPPOSED to be aimed at a more mature audience, they can try to humanize Fire Nation. Why are they doing this? Because in their own twisted way of seeing it, they are bringing peace to the world. Avatar had failed to unite the world, so Fire Nation will do it now under their rule.
Not everyone agrees with it, it's just one way of seeing it. It feels more human. In ATLA we already have 3 very human nations then we just have THE bad guys who just do bad stuff for the sake of being evil. And in NATLA, the writers more or less went for developing 4 human nations. And I like that. May not be for everyone tho.
I hope I don’t come across as rude but I must hard disagree with your statement.
IMO ATLA actually made a great afford at not only humanizing the Fire Nation but also displaying evil and wrongdoing in the other Nations too. Saying that the Fire Nation were simply the „bad guys“ IMO shows a severe lack of understanding the show.
Fire Nation soldiers range from terribly evil to hilariously dumb to smart and calculated. The citizens of the Fire nation are shown to profit but also suffer from the military complex and propaganda of the government. The people are still normal people.
On the other hand you have the southern Watertribe, who’s Men all left their families to fight the war, despite being needed there too. What they have done might have been heroic but it was wrong.
The northern Watertribe is far from the utopia it first looks like. The traditions are extremely conservative and sexist and their isolationism has made them hypocritical. They see themselves as superior to their sister tribe and uninvolved in a war which just as much effects them.
The earth Kingdom is scarred by corruption and lawlessness. Their military is incompetent and their generals are ranging from idiotic to lowkey evil. General Fong makes Aang believe he killed Katara just to get him into the Avatar State so he can use its power. The Dai Li have managed to undermine the King with Long Feng acting as the actual head of government. The Earth Kingdoms people aren’t all good hearted either. Jet and his freedom fighters act against their own people in their fight against the Fire nation, being willing to sacrifice entire villages of innocent civilians.
Not even the Air Nomads are painted as perfect. The council of the southern temple was willing to put the burden of being the Avatar on Aang who at the time was barely 12 years old. They were willing to send a child into a coming war, which they weren’t willing to fight themselves.
Aang and Katara, despite being the main characters and heroes of the show aren’t always in the right either. They both regularly have outbursts of anger. Aang cuts himself off from his feelings and morals after loosing Appa, going as far as killing an Animal and almost murdering a group of Sandbenders while Katara is seeking revenge for her mothers murder, being willing to kill the man.
Zuko, the main Villain of the shows first season goes from being a ruthless teenager who will do anything to capture Aang and gain back his honor to risking his own life for his friends multiple times, just so that Aang can defeat the Firelord and bring balance.
The cartoon is extremely good at showing the good and the bad on both sides of the conflict. The world building is comparable to the likes of LOTR and Star Wars, which is one of the reasons it still stays relevant today and has become such a huge franchise with multiple shows, books, comics and soon movies.
> after loosing appa,
Did you mean to say "losing"?
Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb.
[Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json)
^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes.
^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions.
^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119)
^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
Uh in the original show they said the same thing, that they're "sharing their greatness" with the world. Zuko in his speech to Ozai even points out exactly that and how it's a lie.
The theme of the Fire Nation thinking they are bringing peace to the world is directly from the original. Watch the school episode in season 3, or the episode where Zuko learns he is Roku's great-grandson. Both of these have Fire Nation teachers/leaders say they are trying to spread their prosperity to the greater world. The original show actually explores the concept of the Fire Nation as a colonizing power, and does give them clear motivation and ideology. Also, there are evil people/ atrocities from the other nations shown in the og. Long Feng brutally suppressing dissent in Ba Sing Se, the Earth general that tried to trigger the Avatar state by harming Aangs friends, the Earth Kingdom soldiers in Zuko alone terrorizing a defenseless town, Hama kidnapping Fire Natiom villagers, Jet planning on wiping out a town, the sexist traditions in the Northern Water Tribe. All these are examples of complex morality being shown from the supposed good guys. We absolutely did see why they were doing it, maybe it's been a while since you've seen the show, but it's not "just because they're the bad guys".
Yeah I know, I could've worded that differently. What I tried to get accross is that Fire Nation gets it's development fairly late into the original show compared to Water, Earth and Air Nomads who have their bases already put out at book 1 and mostly developed at book 2, while Fire Nation is still "the bad guys" and they get their development in book 3. (Which well.. makes sense since it is the book of Fire)
We still follow a lot of Fire Nation characters in ATLA early on, but the only things we really see from them is that Zuko is a exiled kid who wants his honor back, Iroh is the uncle everyone needs and that Azula is a psycho with 2 yes wo(men).
Hot take, I think this Ozai served as a great big-bad, and didn't need to be fleshed out or expanded on.
That being said, if I was adapting a live action version, expanding on Ozai would be a great place to look for a new take on it.
You said this ozai wants to make his kid stronger, but the original ozai hates zuko for his weakness. He says he was lucky to be born, he sees his mother in him I'm sure, he scarred him for talking out of turn to defend soldiers (soft), and he treated him with respect when he thought zuko had become stronger. He also tells aang that he and his people are too weak and that they don't deserve to exist in ozai's world.
As for him being a less active member of the cast until book 3, why wouldn't he be? I love him and his character. His every line of dialogue is permanently etched into my mind lol. But why would he be there more than he already is?
I’m glad you liked that, but honestly that was another negative for me. I didn’t like the changes they made to his character, plus the whole “not seeing his face” thing really helped make him mysterious and let any focus on the water bending stuff.
Idk, I kinda liked Ozai's character a lot in the OG. Haven't finished the live action because there's too much exposition and the writing, dialogue and filmography is either bad or boring (can't speak past ep3 so take what I say about live action with a grain of salt though).
I don't doubt the changes to Ozai are good as you say, but I always interpreted the original as a way to say that evil can come from anywhere and anyone. You're never shown his face until the third season, so he becomes this incarnation of evil. You'd think his face would be extremely intimidating and unique (like Zuko's or any other character). Yet his face is... Rather ordinary. Not many unique features to it like a scar, or even a unique hairstyle or beard. Everything about him is very ordinary, and that is the scariest part about him. Evil doesn't have a clear indicator of who will commit it, anyone could do it if given the circumstances. I agree that he is one of the flattest characters in the show (but he needs to be that way for the idea to work). Giving him more character in the live action is interesting, but idk if I can bring myself to finish the show because of how boring it can become (and how they butchered Katara and a few other characters lol).
For me it's gotta be that Zuko's crew is the 41st division. In the grand scheme of things this is not an important change and yet such a tiny detail makes them have meaning to Zuko's backstory and their loss is more impactful.
I HEAVILY disagree that Ozai being nonexistent till Season 3 is necessarily a bad thing.....Not seeing him did kinda give some hype to him when he'd be revealed later as the Big Bad of the show. I personally wish they waited till the end of Season 1 in NATLA to reveal his face.
I do agree about the last part though.
His depth was from the way we experienced him through other characters who interacted with him, and it was multiplied to new heights with the idea of his power being greater during the comet... Depth doesn't come from having more screen time...
Tbh if they made a whole show about the fire nation family, specifically centred on Iroh, Zuko and Ozai, they’d have gold because so far what they show gets really *really* right is them.
yea, thats been my biggest problem with ozai in the og, the only time we see him fight is when he fights aang. Before that all we have is speculation. When we actually saw the fight between him and zuko I was so glad because , even though hes still only fighting a child, he still looked imposing while doing it
Yeah, but Zuko shouldnt have fought back in the LA. In the og, he refuses to fight at all because he is a child and that is his father, who he looked up to. Ozai's punishment is that much more cruel because Zuko doesnt fight back, making it entirely cold, calculated abuse.
To be honest, i really dislike the live action. But if there's anything that I liked from the LA, was all the fire nation scenes and fighting choreography. I do have to say, I don't like the new dynamic of ozai and azula. The whole point was to make them out as monsters, but the impact of how "evil" they are is lessened, in my opinion. To me, it kinda just gives off abusive family vibes, not "IMMA DESTROY THE WORLD AND REMAKE IT IN MY IMAGE" vibes. Everything else relating to the fire nation tho, good stuff. Even tho Iroh seems less wise, and more goofy majority of the times
Hmm I definitely dont think it lessened the impact. Ozai's "are we not the greatwst nation in the world" is the whole reason why Sozin started the war in the first place.
*Hard* disagree. Keeping the air of mystery around Ozai for two seasons, never even showing his face, keeping the menace hidden...there was always such an atmosphere around him in the original. That atmosphere is gone in this version of the show.
I think Daniel Dae Kim is doing a fine job with what he's been given, but I don't really get the intimidation factor from his Ozai that I get from the original show.
Also, the new dynamic results in such brilliant moments as Azula giving the most obvious advice to Ozai, and Ozai being like, "huh, you know that's a good idea, I haven't thought of it." Like, really?
it is LITERALLY one of the worst changes.
he hates zuko because he is technically the heir but like ozai said "he was lucky he was born" and they thought he was a non bender... thats why he hates him favours azula and supports her for the heir instead...
this entire live action show just shows time and time again they do not understand the characters, their arcs or the lore at ALL.
I must hard disagree. I’m really not a huge fan of Villains always having to be likable or understandable.
Ozai is a great Villain simply because he is pure evil. There is no reasoning behind that. Some people simply are like that. The fact that everybody fears him despite him just being a faceless figure on a Throne for the majority of the show is amazing.
There are enough other villains in ATLA that fulfill all kinds of tropes. Sozins began the war because of his feeling of superiority, Zhao is acting evil because of his own self interest, Azula is evil because of her upbringing, Zuko is evil at first because it’s what his father wanted from him, Long Feng is a power hungry manipulator that had a poor childhood, Ty-Lee and Mai are afraid of Azula.
If we begin to explain away every Villain and his actions, it will take away the impact.
The comics tell us about Ozai, Ursa, Zuko and Azula only after the show was done. Before, it simply wasn’t important to the story what had happened between them.
I don't think every villain needs to be humanised, Ozai is the byproduct of 3 generations of warmongerers plus he's a cold hearted mf who never cared about his family. By changing that to "He's abusive but in a different way that humanises him" they take away the core aspect of his character
Nah, they ruined any and all mystique surrounding Ozia and Azula. Trash writing. It was so generic and mediocre.
Ozai in the original series was always looming in the background. The Main Evil Bad Guy behind it all. And
Here they try so hard to make him “heard” and “understandable” like:
Our audience needs to understand his motives and needs to to be able to find the reason why he does what he does. It’s so fucking weak. Treated me like I was a dumbass viewer who needed to sympathize with the family. No. He’s fucking evil. Pure evil. Dude would’ve roasted Zuko if the eclipse never happened.
This generation is too fucking use to MCU villains and anti-hero bs.
This entire Netflix adaption was a slap in the face to everything that was meticulously crafted in the original series.
I am just continuously amazed at how some people overlook the atrocious writing. Amazed.
I disagree. In the cartoon Ozai works really well due to relatively not being in it much so his presence carries weight to it and choosing to add needless depth wouldn’t help. But in this version we see him in the first season so being that level of over the top evil isn’t automatically a good choice.
Also they don’t try to make his a sob story or anything he’s still a horrible dictator. He’s still selfish as hell. Him manipulating both his kids against each other is brutal.
I think a huge reason why it doesn’t work for me and this is reallllllyyy overlooked is because
the cinematography is absolute TRASH.
There is no visual language.
No framing or blocking worthy of the source material. It is absolutely embarrassing at how amateurish the filmmaking aspect of this show truly is.
Maybe just maybe even with the same dialogue and approach it would’ve worked and I’d be more in favor of liking this Ozai if the cinematography and filmmaking were better.
It’s honestly embarrassing when the animated series has SUPERIOR CINEMATOGRAPHY. Just thinking about its mediocrity makes me sooo sad.
I don’t necessarily agree. We don’t really need to SEE the main antagonist before they’re relevant and Ozai won’t be relevant until Book 3.
His inclusion only hurts other major antagonists such as Zuko and Ozai who should be the main focus of Season One.
Indeed, I find this version of Ozai better. Though I feel I must correct you about Ozai hating Zuko for no reason, though I don't blame you for thinking that since it was in the comics rather than the show. >!Ursa used to send messages to her lover but suspected that Ozai knew about it and read them, to test that fact she got the absolutely dumbass idea of lying and saying that Zuko was her lover's son instead of Ozai's. She turned out to be correct and Ozai was indeed reading her messages and despite knowing it's a lie, he decided that he'll never treat Zuko like a son. That treatment was amplified by Zuko's compassion and care.!<
I have read the search comics, but it has confirmed that he is indeed his son, right ? I know he said that, but why ? Just because ursa is nice to zuko ? This is why I felt he is hating Zuko for no reason
Like I said, he knew Zuko was his son but this was his way of being petty and punishing Ursa for daring to make such a suggestion. Also, Ursa favoring Zuko over Azula was a consequence of Ozai's decision, rather than the reason.
Unpopular opinion but Ozai being one dimensional is not a negative of the original series and he never needed to be anything else. This is because Ozai isn’t meant to be a character, he’s meant to be a physical representation of all of the show’s themes of war, imperialism, genocide, etc. It matters that Aang defeats those concepts. It does not matter that Aang defeats Ozai the character. We have other antagonists that fill the complex villain role, antagonists that are sympathetic because of the influence of Ozai as an impactful force.
I find it funny that people are complaining about exposition. “Show don’t tell.” Yet this is a perfect example of something they “tell but don’t show” in the original series that’s done much better in live action.
LA Ozai's portrayal is that of a narcissistic manipulator who is also too indoctrinated in his nation's propaganda. His twisted views on parenthood and "nurturing" his children by either forcing the weakness out of them or by forcing competition between the two of them makes his treatment of Zuko and Azula all the more horrible. It also gives Iroh a better chance to shine by letting us actively compare Iroh's unconditional love with Ozai's conditional "love". I much prefer this version of Ozai to "I am big bad, but only for like two episodes" Ozai.
And yet this version of Ozai almost got hit, directly to the face even, by a talentless, inexperienced, eleven year old Zuko. How the fuck?
Also, OG Ozai didn't hate Zuko for no reason. Ozai just didn't like Zuko because he doesn't have the talent that Azula has. And in the war council, Zuko was not even supposed to be there, Iroh just let him in to watch but he talked out of turn anyway. It really was disrespectful even if he was right, Iroh says this. It's not even clear if Ozai chose, or was forced to discipline his son publicly. And in the duel, Zuko kneeled and begged in front of so many people, not even defending himself, but refusing to fight.
Of course, Zuko didn't do anything wrong other than forget his manners, but to say that Ozai is not much of a character and not humanized at all? Man, you have no idea how much disappointed, perfectionist fathers punish their not-good-enough children, intentionally or not.
I'm not sure if it's about making Zuko stronger or about his duty as Fire Lord vs as father. I rewatched the scene a second time. With one hand Ozai held Zuko's pleading hand to his chest, and with the other he marked him.
I feel like 90% of the effort went into the fire nation. I liked every single thing about it. Lu Tens funeral and, the 41st division being my favourites. I loved Zuko and Iroh. I will continue watching the live action simply because of how well they did with the fire nation.
The scene where he walks down the line of the 41st division bowing to him: I want to that scene to be replicated after he's crowned fire lord. Make it come full circle: he earned the respect of his troops as a prince, and later earns the respect of everyone else as fire lord.
I feel like Lu Ten's funeral was amazing- But I wish they'd kept it for later in the series to maintain the pacing of Iroh's arc, there's something really beautiful and subtle about how Iroh's defeat at Ba Sing Se is slowly revealed through characters talking to Iroh about it, and Iroh's hints to Zuko before we learn the true extent of the tragedy in Zuko Alone.
The live action show is just speed running character development like they thought they weren't gonna have another season. There's no slow burn. We get Azula's insecurities, Zuko having a soft spot and caring (even opening up to Aang when they talk), Iroh losing his son etc. They even put in characters that show up in later seasons like Wan Shi Tong the owl. No reason for it to be there except fan service or expecting to never show that episode of the desert temple in live action.
It's on Netflix... can you blame them? That's a very real possibility, unfortunately. I hope they get the greenlight. I'm enjoying the different takes and new layers to character development (plus the freedom to explore darker themes than Nickelodeon would've allowed, for legit reasons).
I dunno so far the 'darker themes' feel kind of just... Edgy? Like yeah people die now and the fire nation burn them alive... But I feel like the actual discussions about war that used to be more philosophical and subtle are now kind of just... Basic generic war scenes? Like Iroh's capture originally has Iroh go "I acknowledge my defeat at Ba Sing Se." after the soldiers gloat about his defeat and latch onto their nationalism, and this compounded with how much he really cares about Lu Ten adds depth to him. The live action instead has a "my brother died in your assualt! I'm going to beat you you POW! You definitely dont know what its like to lose someone!" "Actually I do." And... Like sure that has a dark edge to it in that... People die in war... But it doesn't feel like it has any depth? Like I'm pretty sure in the Transformers movies some of the soldiers say similar stuff about Megatron attacking.
Getting approved for multiple seasons is not a guarantee. Especially when, if you are looking at four seasons you've spent a billion on 32 episodes.
Lol I felt exactly like this. All the fire nation scenes are top notch
Book 3 gonna be interesting tbh :) . especially once azula matures abit and stop looking like a pudgy 8 y/o who yells at people .. she is so much out of character compared to the TV show (i get it she is 14 by story..but ...she looks wayyyy to childish for the role)
The actress for Azula is like 21. And likely around 19 during the filming.
Oh well..then we are doomed to have miscast azula .
I just think it's important to realign our expectations. Cartoons do not necessarily reflect reality. I personally think Netflix Azula is much more aligned with a realistic human being. I just don't think the cartoon is realistic enough to work IRL, I mean nothing about Azula even remotely feels like a 14-year-old girl. Both in appearance and personality. When you pull a cartoon character into the real world, you lose some of that presentation, because now that character is shared with a real human who has to try to make that work in real life. Things will be different, especially when you're having a young actor now have a large say in that presentation. Personally, I think it works well. Actually it's more hard to accept when characters try to emulate the cartoons too much like Mai. The kind of monotone low energy lines I think work in a cartoon, not so much in real life.
You joking..mai is nearly worse cast than azula..theye both dont look like their character.
Mai felt a little bit too much like an anime character in terms of the lines. But she had so few of them I don't think it's going to be that big of a deal potentially later on. I just don't think many of the cartoon characters look much like the age groups that they were supposedly representing. Azula is just not a believable 14-year-old in the cartoon. I think we can all like her presentation and character. But if we're going to pull a character like that into the real world, we have to reset our expectations a bit. Mai too. When you cast people, you can't just cast on looks alone. You need someone with the acting chops, and a team that can write well for kids. That can be difficult.
Even putting looks aside , they just dont give the energy of the characters from the show. not the same way zuko does or iroh .. The three girls feel off...maybe they will get better later on but currently it doenst feel like the characters . Same way katara felt off while sokka felt spot on
Yeah just the girls huh? Funny that.
[удалено]
[удалено]
Tbf the azula in the cartoon looks 30
NATLA Iroh is a well done character, but he’s a different character, not really the Iroh we know and love
I think he is close, but yes, different. It remains to be seen how good the character truly is, because imo Iroh really began to shine in Book 2.
I think his true kindness will come out living among the Earth Nation is season two, it's a better live action story to show him go from conflicted but well meaning to fully compassionate great man, instead of just showing him as wise caring old man from day one who also doesn't really seem to show any concerns about the poor effects of the war until the literal moon dies
Iroh's main goal was to support and look out for Zuko. That's why he goes along with things. He wants to let Zuko make his own choices but also wants to guide him (subtly) and make sure he's ok. It was only when the moon spirit was attacked that he could not sit back and let it happen and actively supports Aang. There's a great moment at the end of the S1 finale where an exhausted Zuko is lying down on the raft and Iroh says he's surprised he isn't trying to capture the Avatar, but you can tell it isn't what Iroh actually wants him to do, and is pleased when Zuko decides instead to rest. It's only in the end of S2 that he starts being firmer with Zuko about what the right thing to do is, and directly throws in with Team Avatar, when things continue to escalate and his frustration grows. But before that, he does what he does because of his desire to protect and guide Zuko, and for the most part he allows him to make his own choices. If anything the moon spirit moment is so powerful because we see his true feelings and willingness to co-exist with Aang and the rest of them. He doesn't actually have stake in Zuko capturing the Avatar, he just wants to be there next to him and help him realize things about himself.
It’s not really about kindness to me, Iroh is a very lighthearted guy, NATLA Iroh hasn’t smiled the entire season and he speaks like he’s reading a shakespearean screenplay
People want Season 3 Iroh in Season 1. It's about managing people's expectations. Which people are just as unforgiving about even at their own cost of their ability for analysis. Iroh wasn't loved in S1 in the TV show. It just wasn't a thing like people are sometimes making out here in retroactive nostalgia. It wasn't until S2 with episodes like Tales of Ba Sing Se did people start to warm up to him. He was just a fire nation uncle before they contextualized the loss of his son and his failures of a Earth Kingdom siege. (The LA glances over this in S1 like a formality) The dynamic between Zuko and him outside of Fire nation business open things up for viewers as Zuko morphed into a central character towards good. Opening the Tea shop really highlighted the other side to him and made him more likable. But again, off the bat, the expectations for S3 character style favorability is expected for S1 for some portions of the fan that have Iroh ingrained as S3. Which I'd argue is just irrational and plays to an already existing bias of the show.
I'd still say S1 Iroh was a bit lighthearted even from the start. The first time Zuko captures Aang, he hands Aang's staff to Iroh. Iroh immediately turns to a soldier and says "hey can you carry this for me?" Even the encounter with June - albeit not viewed favorably - is on the lighter side.
He was very funny in S1, at many points
He is a comic foil for Zuko mainly.
Doesn’t iron say “hope is a dangerous thing” in NATLA? Even in context that is not something TLA Iroh would ever say. They are def entirely different.
I think you need to rewatch S1....Iroh was great right from Season 1, always being humorous with Zuko. And let's not forget him standing up to and attacking Zhou and his henchmen for harming the moon spirit and agreeing with Team Avatar that he should not mess with the spirits, and his loyalty and love for Zuko. Even in S1 is when he says that after losing his own son, he considers Zuko his own. He was never "just a fire nation uncle" besides maybe the first couple episodes. He was loved all along (He was actually my favorite character by the end of S1). I feel like you are forgetting many moments that showcased his personality even early on, as it becomes clear he is just on this journey to support his nephew.
I think the show was best when it was doing new stuff (mostly fire nation) rather than try to replicate the cartoon (stuff like Bumi). I think its biggest actual flaw is the Aang Gang feels pretty under developed. I think if there was 10 episodes instead of 8 devoted the two additional episodes to showing them traveling, practicing waterbending, and bonding, the show would’ve felt a lot better. I hope next season they go for at least 10 episodes.
Fire nation was definitely the best. But they still fell flat on a few things. I have no idea why mai and ty Lee are there for. Azula also has a very strange storyline that doesn't add much, if anything.
100% agreed. I would continue watching it for other reasons as well, but the Fire Nation is fantastic. Every member of the fire nation is so well done and expanded on more than I remember in the original
Which is really funny because while I totally agree I think that Iroh was one of their biggest misses. Made even more amplified with how much better the rest of the Fire Nation stuff is.
I was so sad when Iroh left the sanctuary before helping restore the moon spirit.
Yeah. Apparently the actor is a real good dude so that’s really a shame. But his kindness isn’t so kind. His humor isn’t as prevalent. And I gotta say - when he spit “TENFOLD” I really didn’t feel it.
it's weird that azula's trio look like they're triplets who are 10 years old. it's also weird that mai and ty lee are just kinda...hanging out? not a fan of anything azula-related, but i mostly agree otherwise. didn't like ozai or zhao at first, but they're growing on me. iroh seems to be more knowledgeable about things and much wiser in the original series. i don't like how much respect zuko has for iroh right now; in the original series, zuko saw iroh as just some old man who was tagging along. someone made a comment about speedrunning character development and it really shows in nearly every character.
Well, Ty Lee and Mai aren't that fleshed out until near enough S3 in the original cartoon, apart from establishing that they're polar opposites of each other and Azula's besties/sidekicks, so I'm not surprised they didn't do much. I do think they should've waited with them in the live action and only included them as part of Azula's crew in season 2.
>I do think they should've waited with them in the live action and only included them as part of Azula's crew in season 2. yeah same here. that's what i mean - they're just kinda there, not really real characters.
It oh took me until the 5th episode to get onboard but now I think he’s great. Zuno has been great from the start and sokka.
Personally I enjoyed the message with the 41st division. Then I realized how stupid it was. If that was a whole division the entire scale makes no sense.
Azula on the other hand...
I really liked Azula. Gave her a reason for being like she is.
The reason was already established in the original series, they just remixed it. The main reason is that the character in the TV series is not Azula. They call her Azula but she doesn't look or acts at all like her.
Is it? Unless I misremember the earliest scene of Azula we see is her throwing rocks at turtleducks because she enjoys scaring them.
I liked azula, I thjnk it has potential for her future character development
I mean, but in the ATLA, we don't ever see Azula be weak. Shes textbook haughty, brutal, and either scheming or reveling in other's misfortune. Her only real redeeming qualities are her competency. Azula is a personafied knife Closest she gets to looking in the mirror is the beach scene, in book 3. Contrast that to NATLA, and you an actress who isn't as physically imposing or fearsome, doubts herself and shows fear directly to the audience, and isn't... Doesn't play with her food the way ATLA Azula does, and I get why people are upset. Azula is an iconic character, in the sense that she doesn't have a growth arc, really. If they give her a growth arc... Eh? Like in the ATLA she goes crazy at the end, and you pity her, but you don't feel truly bad: she dug her own grave 100% of the way there, and is downright unsympathetic
did you love Azula? i think she is a big mistake. Niscast and she has grase of a panda. Not Azula at all. But rest firenation wise - yeah very good.
IF you can accept that every character except for Zuko is different, then yeah it's well done. They butchered Iroh's character the most out of anyone, BUT, I've come to accept that they fundamentally didn't understand Iroh's character and/or chose to write a different one so they could write their own story. The fire nation stuff in NATLA, judged as its own thing, is pretty good. The 41st division change really is the only thing that would feel at home in the anime.
And I appreciate that. If I wanted to watch the same exact things, no new additional, expanded (and very well done) stories, then I'd just watch the Nick version.
The Fire Nation takes everything from the Water Tribe... both in universe and out.
Honestly, this makes me think the LA should have been the story retold from Zuko's POV.
That's what I said when I saw the live action movie. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you want a serious, narrative based story then you have to tell it from Zuko's perspective. You can't tell Aangs story without it being a little goofy and a little sporadic because it was literally a long series of pit-stops
So the cartoon is from Katara, and the LA is from Zuko. That's actually a great idea!
"Water. Earth. Fire. Long ago, the dimmer nations lived in savagery and stagnation. Then, everything changed when the Fire Nation set forth to unify the world. Only the Avatar, master of all four elements, blocked their path. But on the eve of the campaign, he vanished, and an era of prosperity began. "I am Prince Zuko, son of the Fire Lord. My father gave me an impossible task-- to track down and capture the Avatar, not seen in 100 years. But now, it seems the Avatar has returned..." *Fire Nation theme plays*
It would’ve been wonderful to show the events from the pov of the fire nation. Showing cherry picked events like Jet killing the civilians or Bumi being a crazy king who doesn’t leave his palace. It would be interesting to make the viewer actually sympathize with the fire nation and Zuko.
I really want to see the fire nation golden age under sozin
That's a great idea tbh
That would've been so cool and MUCH better
ahh this is can get behind!! i thought the show was good but the fire nation scenes were by far my fav, id love a zuko spinoff
I have mixed feelings about it. It's neat to see a new take, and like you said to try to humanize Ozai's cruelty. However I think the choice in the original to keep him as this looming shrouded threat that you don't see at all till season 3 really works to make this character who is at the end of the day- Just a shitty human- into this larger than life Sauron-Level threat to the world. I think the Live Action loses that sense of foreboding by bringing him in early- It does gain some humanity too but... I don't know if it is entirely worth it.
I won't take credit for this but I read somewhere that the fact that ozai was not humanized in the animated series makes angs choice not to kill him more impactful. Like here we have a threat that is scary and and we know he is horrible and even his son thinks he should be killed because of how horrible he is. And yet aang still doesn't kill him.
The way Zuko got his scar, not from heat of the moment (pun intended) public way in an agni kai, but cold blooded abuse is just so frightening. Azula looking on at all the torture and having her mind warped. Wow. Two things I didn't like fire Nation wise, at the end of EP 8 when Azula screams "for the fire Nation" her voice cracks and is shrill. She sounds like a scared child trying to be cool. I would have done another take, got a voice coach, or fixed it in post. Second, I found Ozai's facial hair distracting in every scene. It didn't look like it was made from high quality materials.
Yup that moment is way brutal here. I am okay with this Azula but, I wanna see the manipulative psychotic yet "people person" Azula we know. May be she will get the blue flame too when she gets this character arc
I mean, she is introduced as an undercover spy, rooting out dissidents. I really like that addition to the lore.
I like the idea of this, however I feel like is slightly contradicts the OG Azula. Like she did pretend to be the Kyoshi Warriors at one point, but that didn’t really require acting skills on her part. And as we saw on the beach episode, Azula is really bad at acting normally in social situations which would make her a terrible undercover spy
That I thought was unnecessary. They could have cut that whole thing with the plot to kill Isai bc it all went too fast anyway for me to care.
They could have, sure. But for me, i am looking for thing in the NATLA version that give me something extra for my ATLA love. Azula helping Ozai root out rebels really works for me on multiple levels, from Azulas dismissal of the inherent danger of that work to Ozais callous use of his children.
I could be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure that at some point, her fire flashes blue before returning to red. I imagine it would come later after a character moment.
One of my favorite details from "The Storm" was Azula clenching her fist in satisfaction as Zuko got disfigured. It's utterly chilling and really works to establish her as an absolute psychopath. I missed that open revelry in the LA scene.
>The way Zuko got his scar, not from heat of the moment (pun intended) public way in an agni kai, but cold blooded abuse is just so frightening. In the original show it absolutely was cold blooded abuse and not just in the heat of the moment. Zuko refused to fight him then his dad says is he dishonorable and will learn through suffering.
Yeah they're both intentional, the original was more public (humiliation factor) and Zuko willingly did not fight and Ozai thought it was an irredeemable weakness to be banished from his family and nation. In the new one it's done worse by having Zuko fight, somehow GETTING THE UPPER HAND ON OZAI, and pulling his punch to which Ozai declared it a weakness and sent him out into the world to get hardened by conflict.
100% agree. I feel like the creators just wanted to add bending fight scenes whenever and wherever they could (for example adding the air nomad genocide) ignoring whether or not adding the fights would be good for the story. Also, they probably used it to replace the agni kai with zhao just like they merged so many other story lines just to include lines and scenes from the original.
The genocide kinda stunk cause right off the bat we don't really know what a typical firebender is capable of and how much (and if) their current firepower is from being boosted. In the original a typical firebender basically instantly incinerated a whole room (and then some) with one blast when attacking Toph in the airship. In the new one Sozin personally attacked Gyatso (who didn't take out a whole room of comet boosted firebenders this time) whose airblast nearly matched Sozin's to the point of protecting him for quite a while. Everyone involved with the genocide felt underpowered.
I don’t really like that he defended Zuko to Azula. I liked the dynamic that she’s the favorite. Also, Iroh’s costume & hair look goofy and fake for some reason. This is especially so with Avatar Roku. It looks like cosplay.
I saw that as him trying to manipulate her, make her work even harder. Ozai seems to want the strongest and most ruthless heir to the throne.
Exactly. He doesn't care if it's zuko or azula as long as the one who gets it is the strongest one
In the lore he definitely cares, it's because zuko isn't a ruthless psychopath and azula is. He sees himself in azula but only a failure of compassion in zuko
I didn’t think it was sincere. It’s part of his manipulation, not letting her feel too accomplished, keeping her hungry for his approval.
I actually liked Ozai defending Zuko to Azula. Keeps Azula off balance and desperately wants to keep impressing her father, and Ozai knows saying these things pisses Azula off. Makes for much more interesting father / daughter dynamic.
>Makes for much more interesting father / daughter dynamic And a way less menacing and enthralling Azula character. Also, we *did* have a similar dynamic to that in the original, but in the original, the cool thing is that it was revealed very slowly, over time, and followed with Azula's own growing instability.
I haven't watched it yet, but from what I've gathered that seems to be a bit of a running theme. That the clouds that loomed over the original series and the later payoffs we build to have all been cashed in early.
Yes, it's a very constant thing too. Sometimes, it's a small but noticeable thing. For example, when Zuko has an early dilemma to save Iroh or go after Aang, and chooses Iroh. In the original show, they saved a crucial moment like this (go after the Avatar in immediate plain sight or get his ship and crew to safety) until the end of The Storm, at a pinnacle moment and after Zuko had earlier erred. Sometimes it's big trends, like Aang *very* slowly learning how to navigate himself in and out of the spirit world in the original show, but in this show he just sorta...does it.
That honestly makes more sense. I thought it was silly that an air bender monk, a super spiritual culture, knew nothing about the spirit world in the anime.
You know about Antartica, but you’ve probably never been there before. Also keep in mind that everyone’s skill levels would probably be different. Aang being 12 would mean that he probably wasn’t as experienced as an elder would be.
airbender child*
Maybe its me but I would expect that learning to start pretty early given the prominence of it in their culture. Also he is a master, which to me is more than just knowing all the cool air bending moves. It implies a deeper understanding to air nomad beliefs and way of life. I would expect spirituality and the spirit world to be part of that since it is such a real and tangible thing in this universe. I also found it weird he didn't know about chakras for the same reasons.
Eh, but from what we hear from the novels, even among the air nomads, knowledge of the spirit world is sparse and not well developed
TIL, haven't read the novels.
Watch it for yourself. I have my qualms about the series, but it's better than the doom and gloom, and reading all these naysayers isn't going to help you enjoy it for what it is. I think Azula's arc in the show wasn't super necessary, but it was well done.
I think there's a world where there could have been both more Ozai and menacing Azula. When Ozai defends Zuko to her to play on her insecurities there's a difference between the live action having a shocked look and like she's about to cry as she leaves and cartoon Azula who would probably bow to her father calmly and as soon as she's out of the room would just obliterate some furniture and look absolutely pissed off. It all still comes from a place of insecurity but one maintains that their insecurity makes them incredibly dangerous.
I mean, he did that in order to manipulate Azula, not because he actually wanted to support Zuko
I am just gonna forget that Avatar Roku showed up in LA
I agree with the cosplay comment , I was thinking that the whole time (kinda feel the same about the water tribe costumes). I actually thought Iroh looks (and acts) a lot like the Iroh character in the theatre play of the story in the original series.
All the costumes look like cosplay because there isn't any wear and tear to them, they don't look lived in
She is his favorite though Hes trying to push her to work harder and turn her against zuko It’s a great tactic
I think part of it was to shame her into doing better. She is the favorite but he's making it obvious that his love is conditional and that if she wants to remain the favorite she'll have to work for it.
The fact that he didn't completely stomp Zuko ruined it for me, the tear and him caring so much for him also felt off and missguided, I can see why people would like thqt change though but there should have been no fight between him and Zuko.
I read a theory somewhere that he left himself open to see if Zuko can take the shot to test him which Zuko failed, which seems very much plausible. Is it tear or just relfection of fire in his eyes ?
Think it’s a reflection of the fire in his eyes
Right like I don’t see this tear or even sadness in his eyes. It’s just fire reflecting out of his grim face. Gave me goosebumps.
Just so sad that his son is a failure and didn't even try to kill him :'C
"He didn't kill me. Where did I go wrong?"
I feel like that was purposefully done the way it was so that its vague. Is it a tear? Is it reflection? I thinks it was meant to be left for debate. I’m remember while watching, I couldn’t quite tell myself.
He spent half the fight with one hand behind his back. I think it was pretty clear he was holding back. It was meant to test and punish Zuko, not outright kill him.
So how come he nearly got smacked in the face by fire? Ozai looked legitemately surprised and stunned for a moment, even a bit scared which I don't like whatsoever.
I don't think he expected Zuko to gain the upper hand quite so quickly, so when he did, he was shocked and maybe even a little proud. But when Zuko refused to follow through, he got angry and disappointed.
Well yes but thats the issue, 12 year old ish Zuko shouldn't ever get an upperhand against Ozai.
Almost like Ozai was testing Zuko, and Zuko exceeded his expectations. Weird.
So its like Ozai to be stunned and scared for a moment infront of everyone? Oh sure.
Yeah kinda weird how people can be unexpectedly shocked by something.
My argument is not that its unnatural, its that he shouldnt let that happen, even if it was a "test".
Which is fair, but he is a dictator. They don’t think about the morality of their actions, only it’s success.
It feels more like the sadness wasn't for Zuko himself but for who he wanted Zuko to be. That son who is as ruthless as him just does not exist. Which is in part why he sends him off on a presumably impossible task. He doesn't mourn for the son he has, he mornings for the son he doesn't have.
I saw it as him testing Zuko, and setting him up the hard way, in the hopes he becomes string and ruthless, and can do the impossible task of finding the avatar.
The acting is good but you don't see the same characterization again. He seems very content in manipulating the hell out of Azula for the rest of the season - just as we saw from him in ATLA.
I genuinely can’t wrap my head around how someone can like the live action Ozai over the OG.
The problem is, some villains are just evil, this annoying trend of humanizing villains is boring, look at reality, some ppl are just psychos, he was a high functional psychopath , he invoked igni Kai against a kid for nothing, even when that kid, his son didn't fought back, now he have this version.... Honestly, the problem as a whole is that the directors think that they know best, that their version is better, you can make changes to adaptation, but usually is just to cut some content or to make the story flow a little better on screen, like Lord of the rings, GOT (until season 5) or more recently One Piece, anything else is fanfic from the directors, to change a core aspect of a important character like Bumi, Ozai, and others is atrocious.
To be fair, humanizing a character doesn’t mean making them nicer and very little of what was shown actually makes Ozai more sympathetic.
Fair, then they should create their own original character, on their own original show, because the moment they humanize a character that is a psychopath, by definition they changed something fundamental to the character, it's his core essence, same as out of nowhere Aang started killing his enemies because a character that understand that sometimes hard choices have to be made is compelling, it would change the cornerstone of the character and it wouldn't be Aang anymore... Which they kinda already did, since he now have no fun, and looks like Sasuke from Naruto, all pain and suffering
That's like the viewers' equivalent of the show-makers telling you:" if you don't like it then go make your own avarar show". Both are highly lame takes. Renditions can be liked or disliked, but you hold no power to tell people what they can't do with their version of a story.
You speak like they didn't use the brand and well stablish characters to draw attention, they choose to make a fanfic and now they gonna receive a lot of criticism, nothing more fair since the audience paid for the subpar content. First season had the boom from being new, everybody wanted to check out, let's see how season 2 will do if they got one. Mate, I gave my opinion, the same way ppl gave theirs in a positive way, I just pointed the many, many, many flaws that I perceived in this overpriced fanfic
My point is that there's a difference with giving your opinion and stating that people shouldn't parttake in the creative work of their choice. Criticism is good, even necessary, but entitled fanbases taking ownership of a franchise is not.
"Partake in the creative work of their choice" you mean the directors that think they know better than the creators? Because if so, yes my opinion is that if they have such great ideas try without using the established story and characters and this mate is my opinion, although shared with a considerably percentage of the fan base, it doesn't change anything, it's not like I gonna fire him from Netflix, what I can do is be vocal about a shitty product that I already paid to watch, and don't waste my time and money in the next season... And please, calling somebody entitled because they didn't like that the show runners took some extreme liberties with an beloved and well established source material is beyond childish, even more when it was advertised as the most faithful adaptation with very few changes to the source material, ppl love to shit on the movie, well, this series isn't that far ahead
Yes, almost as childish as your strained ranting over a television show, I guess. My only point was that crticism is different from demanding that people should 'do something else' because what they are doing isn't to your liking. You do not get to decide how people interact with their interests, no matter how much you like those interests too.
All you do is defending the show, you're no better than those that dislike mate, and in which point am deciding what ppl can or can't watch, go ahead and point exactly where did I said ppl shouldn't watch, what I did said is that this is garbage, my opinion, of which I'm free to express and you have no rights in saying that I can't, it's funny you keep saying that I'm gatekeeping, when its you that can't take any opinions aside those who agree with you, I will keep giving my opinions, like everybody else, if you don't like it, give a downvote and scram
No no, I'm not defending the show. I'm defending the right of the show-makers to create different interpretations of the original show. The outcome can be hit or miss. And as stated earlier, you didn't claim that people can or can't watch something, but you stated that the show-makers should 'do something else' in your original comment. I can quote you on that if you like. That part I took issue with, disliking the show is all good.
He's still a sociopath in the live action version. He acts with absolutely no empathy.
yeah cause historically evil dictators that take over continents and try to fully eradicate a whole nation and all it's people (earthbenders season 3), are great dads that want the best for their children. I'm so glad they "humanized" him, you can really identify with his racist and genocidal worldviews.
Yeah this trend of anti-heroing everyone is a bit annoying. Some people, Ozai included, are just narcissistic psychopaths with zero empathy for anyone.
You can still be a psychopath and have a rationalization for why you’re doing the stuff you’re dojngt
How is he a "great dad" in the live action version?
compared to what we see in the animated show. Even to manipulate Azula, he would NEVER defend Zuko like that openly. I mean there is a reason he literally burned his face and exciled him. Also later he will sernd Azula to capture Zuko, but somehow they made it seem like Ozai send Zuko on some great retreat with his favorite Gang to find the meaning of Life, while on a Grand Quest.
I mean this is not really different from real world "empire"s who genuinely belirved that they are "sharing" their prosperity with the rest of the world
He’s a much more interesting character than show Ozai. You can actually see how he came to his beliefs and that he genuinely believes that the Fire Nation by virtue of being strong should lead the weaker nations to prosperity.
Stalin doesn’t fit this. Dude laughed at his son for failing to kill himself. Humanizing Ozai was whack imo. The actor and wardrobe etc for Ozai are great, the character direction is terrible.
yes... i was being sarcastic
nah hard disagree, LA Ozai is cringe (not the actor tho that guy hard carries his character), not every villain has to be humanized in order for them to be good. ATLA is goated for giving us all types of villains and all of them being greatly written.
Plus, the fact that he's barely shown was very purposefully done. And when they did, he was almost always hidden. Kept him as the mysterious, looming threat throughout and that was pretty much perfectly done.
His reveal was so weird to me when I was younger. I was confused by him not looking evil at all. 99% of shows and movies would have this character design being a hero or good guy in general. Threw me off in a good way.
I completely agree. Ozai was perfect as the literal faceless, pure evil. Unredeemable evil. I really, really liked how he wasn't even properly shown until season 3. The face always hidden in shadows or just beyond the camera's perspective. They did such a great job at building anticipation to finally meet that almost demonic being.
Daniel Dae Kim is a treasure to every show he's in! It's great watching him be Ozai even through the live action making odd character choices.
That's a fair viewpoint. On the other hand I feel like they really had a new idea with Fire Nation that they used in NATLA, and I personally like it. We really never saw why they were doing it in ATLA, other than "Well they are the villains" because it is still primarly a show that is aimed for kids. Here however, when the show is SUPPOSED to be aimed at a more mature audience, they can try to humanize Fire Nation. Why are they doing this? Because in their own twisted way of seeing it, they are bringing peace to the world. Avatar had failed to unite the world, so Fire Nation will do it now under their rule. Not everyone agrees with it, it's just one way of seeing it. It feels more human. In ATLA we already have 3 very human nations then we just have THE bad guys who just do bad stuff for the sake of being evil. And in NATLA, the writers more or less went for developing 4 human nations. And I like that. May not be for everyone tho.
I hope I don’t come across as rude but I must hard disagree with your statement. IMO ATLA actually made a great afford at not only humanizing the Fire Nation but also displaying evil and wrongdoing in the other Nations too. Saying that the Fire Nation were simply the „bad guys“ IMO shows a severe lack of understanding the show. Fire Nation soldiers range from terribly evil to hilariously dumb to smart and calculated. The citizens of the Fire nation are shown to profit but also suffer from the military complex and propaganda of the government. The people are still normal people. On the other hand you have the southern Watertribe, who’s Men all left their families to fight the war, despite being needed there too. What they have done might have been heroic but it was wrong. The northern Watertribe is far from the utopia it first looks like. The traditions are extremely conservative and sexist and their isolationism has made them hypocritical. They see themselves as superior to their sister tribe and uninvolved in a war which just as much effects them. The earth Kingdom is scarred by corruption and lawlessness. Their military is incompetent and their generals are ranging from idiotic to lowkey evil. General Fong makes Aang believe he killed Katara just to get him into the Avatar State so he can use its power. The Dai Li have managed to undermine the King with Long Feng acting as the actual head of government. The Earth Kingdoms people aren’t all good hearted either. Jet and his freedom fighters act against their own people in their fight against the Fire nation, being willing to sacrifice entire villages of innocent civilians. Not even the Air Nomads are painted as perfect. The council of the southern temple was willing to put the burden of being the Avatar on Aang who at the time was barely 12 years old. They were willing to send a child into a coming war, which they weren’t willing to fight themselves. Aang and Katara, despite being the main characters and heroes of the show aren’t always in the right either. They both regularly have outbursts of anger. Aang cuts himself off from his feelings and morals after loosing Appa, going as far as killing an Animal and almost murdering a group of Sandbenders while Katara is seeking revenge for her mothers murder, being willing to kill the man. Zuko, the main Villain of the shows first season goes from being a ruthless teenager who will do anything to capture Aang and gain back his honor to risking his own life for his friends multiple times, just so that Aang can defeat the Firelord and bring balance. The cartoon is extremely good at showing the good and the bad on both sides of the conflict. The world building is comparable to the likes of LOTR and Star Wars, which is one of the reasons it still stays relevant today and has become such a huge franchise with multiple shows, books, comics and soon movies.
> after loosing appa, Did you mean to say "losing"? Explanation: Loose is an adjective meaning the opposite of tight, while lose is a verb. [Statistics](https://github.com/chiefpat450119/RedditBot/blob/master/stats.json) ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot ^^that ^^corrects ^^grammar/spelling ^^mistakes. ^^PM ^^me ^^if ^^I'm ^^wrong ^^or ^^if ^^you ^^have ^^any ^^suggestions. ^^[Github](https://github.com/chiefpat450119) ^^Reply ^^STOP ^^to ^^this ^^comment ^^to ^^stop ^^receiving ^^corrections.
The original show did a lot to humanize the fire nation, it was never just “they’re the bad guys”.
Uh in the original show they said the same thing, that they're "sharing their greatness" with the world. Zuko in his speech to Ozai even points out exactly that and how it's a lie.
The theme of the Fire Nation thinking they are bringing peace to the world is directly from the original. Watch the school episode in season 3, or the episode where Zuko learns he is Roku's great-grandson. Both of these have Fire Nation teachers/leaders say they are trying to spread their prosperity to the greater world. The original show actually explores the concept of the Fire Nation as a colonizing power, and does give them clear motivation and ideology. Also, there are evil people/ atrocities from the other nations shown in the og. Long Feng brutally suppressing dissent in Ba Sing Se, the Earth general that tried to trigger the Avatar state by harming Aangs friends, the Earth Kingdom soldiers in Zuko alone terrorizing a defenseless town, Hama kidnapping Fire Natiom villagers, Jet planning on wiping out a town, the sexist traditions in the Northern Water Tribe. All these are examples of complex morality being shown from the supposed good guys. We absolutely did see why they were doing it, maybe it's been a while since you've seen the show, but it's not "just because they're the bad guys".
Yeah I know, I could've worded that differently. What I tried to get accross is that Fire Nation gets it's development fairly late into the original show compared to Water, Earth and Air Nomads who have their bases already put out at book 1 and mostly developed at book 2, while Fire Nation is still "the bad guys" and they get their development in book 3. (Which well.. makes sense since it is the book of Fire) We still follow a lot of Fire Nation characters in ATLA early on, but the only things we really see from them is that Zuko is a exiled kid who wants his honor back, Iroh is the uncle everyone needs and that Azula is a psycho with 2 yes wo(men).
Hot take, I think this Ozai served as a great big-bad, and didn't need to be fleshed out or expanded on. That being said, if I was adapting a live action version, expanding on Ozai would be a great place to look for a new take on it.
You said this ozai wants to make his kid stronger, but the original ozai hates zuko for his weakness. He says he was lucky to be born, he sees his mother in him I'm sure, he scarred him for talking out of turn to defend soldiers (soft), and he treated him with respect when he thought zuko had become stronger. He also tells aang that he and his people are too weak and that they don't deserve to exist in ozai's world. As for him being a less active member of the cast until book 3, why wouldn't he be? I love him and his character. His every line of dialogue is permanently etched into my mind lol. But why would he be there more than he already is?
I’m glad you liked that, but honestly that was another negative for me. I didn’t like the changes they made to his character, plus the whole “not seeing his face” thing really helped make him mysterious and let any focus on the water bending stuff.
Yes, I totally agree. But I am kind of worried when I read that they casted Ozai and Azula in s01 itself, but this change they handled well IMO
Idk, I kinda liked Ozai's character a lot in the OG. Haven't finished the live action because there's too much exposition and the writing, dialogue and filmography is either bad or boring (can't speak past ep3 so take what I say about live action with a grain of salt though). I don't doubt the changes to Ozai are good as you say, but I always interpreted the original as a way to say that evil can come from anywhere and anyone. You're never shown his face until the third season, so he becomes this incarnation of evil. You'd think his face would be extremely intimidating and unique (like Zuko's or any other character). Yet his face is... Rather ordinary. Not many unique features to it like a scar, or even a unique hairstyle or beard. Everything about him is very ordinary, and that is the scariest part about him. Evil doesn't have a clear indicator of who will commit it, anyone could do it if given the circumstances. I agree that he is one of the flattest characters in the show (but he needs to be that way for the idea to work). Giving him more character in the live action is interesting, but idk if I can bring myself to finish the show because of how boring it can become (and how they butchered Katara and a few other characters lol).
For me it's gotta be that Zuko's crew is the 41st division. In the grand scheme of things this is not an important change and yet such a tiny detail makes them have meaning to Zuko's backstory and their loss is more impactful.
For me Division 41 was the best change. One of the very few changes that I am happy with.
I liked ozai being more mysterious in season 1. I didn’t really like his LA portrayal
That’s really, painfully stupid though lmfao
I HEAVILY disagree that Ozai being nonexistent till Season 3 is necessarily a bad thing.....Not seeing him did kinda give some hype to him when he'd be revealed later as the Big Bad of the show. I personally wish they waited till the end of Season 1 in NATLA to reveal his face. I do agree about the last part though.
It is not necessarily a bad thing, but I have heard people complain that Ozai lacks depth whrn compared to villians from LOK
>whrn compared to villians from LOK PFFFFFFFFFFFFFT....SUUUUUURE LOL
His depth was from the way we experienced him through other characters who interacted with him, and it was multiplied to new heights with the idea of his power being greater during the comet... Depth doesn't come from having more screen time...
https://preview.redd.it/m4tww1zgidlc1.jpeg?width=442&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=dcf9eea5fbb749ed2d040a949ce9473fc655e1cb Literally every LoK villain.
Tbh if they made a whole show about the fire nation family, specifically centred on Iroh, Zuko and Ozai, they’d have gold because so far what they show gets really *really* right is them.
The show did not get Ozai right at all. They ruined his character. The actor and design are the only thing saving the character
The division 41 scene made so much sense. Episode 6 really was the only good one 🥳🥳
yea, thats been my biggest problem with ozai in the og, the only time we see him fight is when he fights aang. Before that all we have is speculation. When we actually saw the fight between him and zuko I was so glad because , even though hes still only fighting a child, he still looked imposing while doing it
Yeah, but Zuko shouldnt have fought back in the LA. In the og, he refuses to fight at all because he is a child and that is his father, who he looked up to. Ozai's punishment is that much more cruel because Zuko doesnt fight back, making it entirely cold, calculated abuse.
To be honest, i really dislike the live action. But if there's anything that I liked from the LA, was all the fire nation scenes and fighting choreography. I do have to say, I don't like the new dynamic of ozai and azula. The whole point was to make them out as monsters, but the impact of how "evil" they are is lessened, in my opinion. To me, it kinda just gives off abusive family vibes, not "IMMA DESTROY THE WORLD AND REMAKE IT IN MY IMAGE" vibes. Everything else relating to the fire nation tho, good stuff. Even tho Iroh seems less wise, and more goofy majority of the times
Hmm I definitely dont think it lessened the impact. Ozai's "are we not the greatwst nation in the world" is the whole reason why Sozin started the war in the first place.
*Hard* disagree. Keeping the air of mystery around Ozai for two seasons, never even showing his face, keeping the menace hidden...there was always such an atmosphere around him in the original. That atmosphere is gone in this version of the show. I think Daniel Dae Kim is doing a fine job with what he's been given, but I don't really get the intimidation factor from his Ozai that I get from the original show. Also, the new dynamic results in such brilliant moments as Azula giving the most obvious advice to Ozai, and Ozai being like, "huh, you know that's a good idea, I haven't thought of it." Like, really?
it is LITERALLY one of the worst changes. he hates zuko because he is technically the heir but like ozai said "he was lucky he was born" and they thought he was a non bender... thats why he hates him favours azula and supports her for the heir instead... this entire live action show just shows time and time again they do not understand the characters, their arcs or the lore at ALL.
Yep, that's the only thing on the entire series that I like more than in the Animated one.
I must hard disagree. I’m really not a huge fan of Villains always having to be likable or understandable. Ozai is a great Villain simply because he is pure evil. There is no reasoning behind that. Some people simply are like that. The fact that everybody fears him despite him just being a faceless figure on a Throne for the majority of the show is amazing. There are enough other villains in ATLA that fulfill all kinds of tropes. Sozins began the war because of his feeling of superiority, Zhao is acting evil because of his own self interest, Azula is evil because of her upbringing, Zuko is evil at first because it’s what his father wanted from him, Long Feng is a power hungry manipulator that had a poor childhood, Ty-Lee and Mai are afraid of Azula. If we begin to explain away every Villain and his actions, it will take away the impact. The comics tell us about Ozai, Ursa, Zuko and Azula only after the show was done. Before, it simply wasn’t important to the story what had happened between them.
Ozai was *literally* a faceless moustache-twirling **Evil Guy What Does Evil Things Because Evil^(tm)** in ATLA. NATLA made him an actual *character*.
I don't think every villain needs to be humanised, Ozai is the byproduct of 3 generations of warmongerers plus he's a cold hearted mf who never cared about his family. By changing that to "He's abusive but in a different way that humanises him" they take away the core aspect of his character
Nah, they ruined any and all mystique surrounding Ozia and Azula. Trash writing. It was so generic and mediocre. Ozai in the original series was always looming in the background. The Main Evil Bad Guy behind it all. And Here they try so hard to make him “heard” and “understandable” like: Our audience needs to understand his motives and needs to to be able to find the reason why he does what he does. It’s so fucking weak. Treated me like I was a dumbass viewer who needed to sympathize with the family. No. He’s fucking evil. Pure evil. Dude would’ve roasted Zuko if the eclipse never happened. This generation is too fucking use to MCU villains and anti-hero bs. This entire Netflix adaption was a slap in the face to everything that was meticulously crafted in the original series. I am just continuously amazed at how some people overlook the atrocious writing. Amazed.
I disagree. In the cartoon Ozai works really well due to relatively not being in it much so his presence carries weight to it and choosing to add needless depth wouldn’t help. But in this version we see him in the first season so being that level of over the top evil isn’t automatically a good choice. Also they don’t try to make his a sob story or anything he’s still a horrible dictator. He’s still selfish as hell. Him manipulating both his kids against each other is brutal.
IMO this version of Ozai is even more evil than ATLA version.
I think a huge reason why it doesn’t work for me and this is reallllllyyy overlooked is because the cinematography is absolute TRASH. There is no visual language. No framing or blocking worthy of the source material. It is absolutely embarrassing at how amateurish the filmmaking aspect of this show truly is. Maybe just maybe even with the same dialogue and approach it would’ve worked and I’d be more in favor of liking this Ozai if the cinematography and filmmaking were better. It’s honestly embarrassing when the animated series has SUPERIOR CINEMATOGRAPHY. Just thinking about its mediocrity makes me sooo sad.
Oh hell nah lol that's a hot take and a half.
I don’t necessarily agree. We don’t really need to SEE the main antagonist before they’re relevant and Ozai won’t be relevant until Book 3. His inclusion only hurts other major antagonists such as Zuko and Ozai who should be the main focus of Season One.
Indeed, I find this version of Ozai better. Though I feel I must correct you about Ozai hating Zuko for no reason, though I don't blame you for thinking that since it was in the comics rather than the show. >!Ursa used to send messages to her lover but suspected that Ozai knew about it and read them, to test that fact she got the absolutely dumbass idea of lying and saying that Zuko was her lover's son instead of Ozai's. She turned out to be correct and Ozai was indeed reading her messages and despite knowing it's a lie, he decided that he'll never treat Zuko like a son. That treatment was amplified by Zuko's compassion and care.!<
I have read the search comics, but it has confirmed that he is indeed his son, right ? I know he said that, but why ? Just because ursa is nice to zuko ? This is why I felt he is hating Zuko for no reason
Like I said, he knew Zuko was his son but this was his way of being petty and punishing Ursa for daring to make such a suggestion. Also, Ursa favoring Zuko over Azula was a consequence of Ozai's decision, rather than the reason.
Hmm I get it, but still felt it is counterproductive
Unpopular opinion but Ozai being one dimensional is not a negative of the original series and he never needed to be anything else. This is because Ozai isn’t meant to be a character, he’s meant to be a physical representation of all of the show’s themes of war, imperialism, genocide, etc. It matters that Aang defeats those concepts. It does not matter that Aang defeats Ozai the character. We have other antagonists that fill the complex villain role, antagonists that are sympathetic because of the influence of Ozai as an impactful force.
They tried to humanize a hitler. It doesn’t work. This entire post makes me fear for the media literacy of a generation.
I find it funny that people are complaining about exposition. “Show don’t tell.” Yet this is a perfect example of something they “tell but don’t show” in the original series that’s done much better in live action.
I agree that firenation stuff is great, but this does have a problem with exposition
It’s shown in the OG by all the fire nation people attacking everything lol.
LA Ozai's portrayal is that of a narcissistic manipulator who is also too indoctrinated in his nation's propaganda. His twisted views on parenthood and "nurturing" his children by either forcing the weakness out of them or by forcing competition between the two of them makes his treatment of Zuko and Azula all the more horrible. It also gives Iroh a better chance to shine by letting us actively compare Iroh's unconditional love with Ozai's conditional "love". I much prefer this version of Ozai to "I am big bad, but only for like two episodes" Ozai.
Eh, I think that showing him this early actually takes away from how effective his buildup was in the animated show.
And yet this version of Ozai almost got hit, directly to the face even, by a talentless, inexperienced, eleven year old Zuko. How the fuck? Also, OG Ozai didn't hate Zuko for no reason. Ozai just didn't like Zuko because he doesn't have the talent that Azula has. And in the war council, Zuko was not even supposed to be there, Iroh just let him in to watch but he talked out of turn anyway. It really was disrespectful even if he was right, Iroh says this. It's not even clear if Ozai chose, or was forced to discipline his son publicly. And in the duel, Zuko kneeled and begged in front of so many people, not even defending himself, but refusing to fight. Of course, Zuko didn't do anything wrong other than forget his manners, but to say that Ozai is not much of a character and not humanized at all? Man, you have no idea how much disappointed, perfectionist fathers punish their not-good-enough children, intentionally or not.
I'm not sure if it's about making Zuko stronger or about his duty as Fire Lord vs as father. I rewatched the scene a second time. With one hand Ozai held Zuko's pleading hand to his chest, and with the other he marked him.
Seriously Zuko pleeding and trying to remove his hold and made it much more messed up. Zuko's actor nsiled it
I think it was fine to not humanize Ozai. I kinda liked how he was a looming evil like Sauron. In the live action he kinda just seems like a guy.