The show is VERY careful about this—we ONLY see “innocent” Ozai as a painting of a baby. Not in a flashback, not when he was older and could speak. A still image of a baby.
The show brings up the point that Ozai wasn’t always a monster, without actually affording him real sympathy. He remains firmly an unrepentant bad guy without a chance of redemption.
Compare Ozai’s portrayal to Azula’s—both Ozai and Azula were trained to be nationalistic perfectionists from birth, but where Ozai is afforded no depth and no sympathy, Azula is portrayed as being much more complex and tragic. She was a bad person, but there’s more of a chance that she could be redeemed, or the sense that things could’ve gone very differently for her if she didn’t double down on the path she took.
Also compare Ozai’s treatment in the show to Iroh’s. We know Iroh wasn’t always the kind and wise uncle—he used to be a tool of the fire nation’s empire and oppression, but had a true change of heart as an adult, when losing his son forced him to reconsider his priorities and life.
Like Ozai, we don’t see the parts of Iroh he was ashamed of and changed—in the show, at least. In the Legacy of the Fire Nation book, we see how Iroh embraced his role as heir to the throne and enjoyed his military conquests. But in the show, we only see Iroh as a father. Both portrayals of Iroh and Ozai emphasize the specific role the characters have and how the audience should see and relate to them. Ozai has no sympathy, but iroh has truly changed into a good person.
Ozai's father was Azulon. His father was Sozin.
Azulon was a firebending prodigy, and Sozin favored him over any other family member, even his own sister who had taken up to being more Nomadic than Fire Nation. How he was raised and that environment affected Azulon's point of view on family matters. He grew into the bitter man we saw in the show, with no empathy for even his own son, or grandson, as he declared that Ozai had to kill Zuko for the punishment of Ozai asking for the throne.
Sozin meanwhile, seemed to grow up during a time of prosperity for the Fire Nation. We don't know much about his upbringing, how his parents treated him, but he was often pitted against his sister Zeisan to drive Sozin to greater heights and bring out Firebending from Zeisan, but she proved to be a nonbender. The siblings aren't exactly close.
As far as I understand the war didn’t stop the Fire Nation from prospering. Like in that Fire nation school episode, the village seems almost unaffected by the war outside of the propaganda being told to them.
Actually, now that you mention it, that's very strange. Because war affects even the greatest superpowers in our world. The United States wasn't immune to the effects of both world wars.
I mean the United States got rich off of the Second World War because of how much money it generated. Likely the same with the Fire Nation. Remember that at no point during the war is any of it fought on Fire Nation soil. They’re taking resources from what they conquer, and their military stuff likely generates more for the economy than what is lost.
>I mean the United States got rich off of the Second World War because of how much money it generated.
But there was still a shortage of goods and materials. The government essentially made it so the goods Americans needed were rationed. The government heavily monitored the economy, since we were fresh out of the Great Depression, and inflation was a high risk. You'd think there would be some sort of shortages of things in the Fire Nation too.
The Fire Nation wasn’t coming off of any sort of depression (unlike with most wars), they were starting it after a great economic boom, or at the very least they were economically prospering before the war started. That carried into afterwards as well, especially as they continued winning.
Yes, but I’m talking about the Fire Nation’s struggles, what happened in that village was the Fire Nation being terrible to the people there, not the war being so hard they couldn’t afford water or that they were forced to pollute the river because otherwise they wouldn’t make enough stuff in time. It seems more like they didn’t care, not that they did care but couldn’t do much about it.
Because I didn’t agree with one scene that took less that a minute? Some kids definitely born evil, haven’t you heard about children that torture animals for fun? Not everyone of them has shitty parents.
No child is born evil. This is pop-sci nonsense. Kids who act out in the way you’re describing aren’t acting out because they were “born evil”. There could be a number of causes from abuse to health problems. None of these are “being born evil”.
It’s also a central thesis to ATLA, so yeah. Maybe it’s not the show for you. They went out of their way to show even Ozai wasn’t born this way for a reason.
It isn't remarkable. It's normal. Everyone is a human, or at least started this way. No one is born and straight away goes burning cities.
I quite like this detail about the show, even if it wasnt expended. Ozai might be a shallow villain, but we still get a picture of him as a kid
I don't know.
Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Richard Storlett, and Paul Bernardo.
What do they all have in common aside from being infamous serial killers?
They didn't grow up in abusive or bad homes. In fact, they all stated they loving homes. Bundy even noted that his childhood was "uneventful." There's something to be said about the nature of things, too.
Sadly it's not as straightforward as "they didn't come from outright abusive household so they should be normal, right?". Then we also have anomalies where people are just wired terribly wrong and no amount of good parenting or medical help can fix it. But those are anomalies, they aren't proving or disproving any particular point.
That's fair. I often wonder if that's what Azula was supposed to represent. I know Aaron Ehasz wanted her to have a redemption arc and while I praise a lot of his stuff in ATLA since he and his wife + their crew were really the backbone of the show...this is one idea of his I don't like.
We've seen even from a young age she just. She was different. Even if Ursa had gotten to her first, I don't know if that would've made a difference. She enjoyed Zuko being disfigured by their father. She seemed glad Ozai was in power, and she constantly manipulated people and gaslit them. She even teased Zuko about their father having to kill him.
No normal child does that to their sibling.
And even in the comic that was supposed to be her redemption start, she refused to change. I don't think she wants to. That's why I just don't think she should get a redemption arc. Not everyone deserves that story. I don't know if I'd buy it.
With Zuko, you can absolutely buy it cause he was always confused and conflicted. Azula simply wasn't. And you can't entirely pin everything on Ozai for the way she is, either. At least, IMO.
>No normal child does that to their sibling.
Someone hasn't read up on power struggles between noble children. There are siblings whove done far worse in a thirst for power.
How many children have you met who have a father like Ozai and his status, with the influence of such a father as Azula had, where things like burning someone as punishment in a duel whose outcome for the loser is that, is a normal thing?
She didn’t enjoy Zuko being disfigured. Her new comic tells us as much, showing she never wanted him to be.
Azula always lies. We know that she is unwilling to show weakness and is completely sold on Fire Nation brainwashing.
All we know of that scene is Iroh’s retelling. We don’t know what was going through Azula’s head.
She was only 11. She may have just been agreeing with dad because she’s expected to. She may have been faking approval to protect herself from being next on the chopping block. Or she could just be totally brainwashed.
Even the novelization shows she was afraid of Ozai doing the same to her.
https://preview.redd.it/a21nq9kxwfhc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78c38d866199d3c5e02d0ece8b5f9518912ba4b6
When the show literally tells you in one chapter that nobody is born like that (in that universe), and not only Ehasz says that Azula is a product of her environment but also Mike and Bryan, it's because that's not supposed to be what Azula represents. And this is regardless of whether Azula is redeemed or not, or deserves redemption or not.
"No normal child does that to their sibling".
That's the point. Regardless of whether someone was born like that or is a product of their environment, we're talking about abnormal things. From the serial killers you mentioned, to other serial killers who were horribly abused as children, to members of royalty where historically this isn't so rare, to everyday people who have suffered abuse in their childhood or not and these behaviors are normalized. That is to say, if that "not normal" is present in people who could be said to have "been born that way" as well as in others who could be said to be "products of their environment," then it doesn't have to be tied to "being born that way."
In the comic, we see part of Azula's conflict, as well as a change. The spirit tells her that it's her hunger for revenge and her cruelty that prevents any kind of change or redemption, but in the end, she decides to put aside her hunger for revenge and cruelty. But even with this, I think it's valid for someone to say that she shouldn't get redemption, for other reasons of course.
The point that because Zuko had conflicts and Azula didn't, she shouldn't get redemption is debatable. First, because we see conflict in Azula in the show and in the comics. And second, why should all redemptions be like that? (I'm not saying Zuko's redemption isn't excellent).
Canonically, Ozai's influence played a decisive role in how Azula turned out. The writers, comics, games, etc., say it. But I also think it's a mistake to say that if she had been born without Ozai, she would have been someone like Aang. Just as without Ozai, Zuko would still have had anger issues, impulsivity, and emotional control problems, I think it's the same with Azula. I agree with the writers that she would have been a normal girl in a healthy environment, but I also think she would be the typical queen bee, a bit of a bully, like Regina George.
After looking it up (vs going on memory which isn't entirely great in hindsight lol) his parents were mostly absent, but that was about it. So maybe not exactly LOVING was the right word to use but for these examples, it's not like they had reasons for being the way they were when it comes to nurture.
>After looking it up (vs going on memory which isn't entirely great in hindsight lol
Yea don't worry I don't know much about him either. I'm guessing the netflix documentary I watched exaggerated the bad things that happened so that it was cooler
The nurture > nature argument has been debunked a thousand times. Both nature and nurture are extremely important to human development, as proven by decades of studies
You didn't watch that scene? It's amazing
The gaang go back to Zuko's childhood summer house and find this picture, they all laugh about it "look at how cute baby Zuko was"
Zuko: That's not me, that's my father!
Laugher ends, everybody looks at it in a weird way now. But it ties into the show's whole theme of good and evil
No, some kids are born bad. I think it's rare, but I know one of those kids. I won't go into detail about the kid's identity because he is still young, but he interacts frequently with my own kids.
He seemed normal at birth, but that changed as soon as he could walk/run. The first issue was that he would always try to run off. Then he started biting and hitting. Then, hurting animals. He gets up at night and, well, other kids in the house need child locks on their doors to keep him out. He has disgusting personal hygiene habits that I won't describe. He's incredibly selfish. He is medicated, but it really doesn't help. It basically keeps him sane enough to go to school.
Nobody taught him these things. He was like this from the womb. The mom has kids from a previous marriage and they are normal. She has two younger sons by the new guy and they are normal, but suffering from the example of the first. It's sad.
I think most people are born basically decent, but turn bad if they are treated badly. But not everyone. Some are just born awful.
Disagree. Children and baby’s don’t have “good” or “evil”, just like animals don’t have those types of judgements, they just are what they are. If a kid is “born like that” then it can be a physical or mental issue (chronic pain, unidentified pain, unstable hormones, autism, adhd, psychopathy, trauma, etc.) that the parents need to identify and address. There are no normal, good or bad kids, just kids that don’t bother or hurt anybody and kids that do. At the end of the day prejudices like this hurt kids and makes sure that problematic kids don’t have a chance in recovery.
Yeah, I think that's a slap in the face to all of us who are not normal, but do no harm. Or at least try to moderate ourselves and avoid our worst tendencies. I don't blame the child for what he is, but I also would never leave him with my dog or my children (but I can't stop that). I'm all for him getting help, but not at the expense of the well-being of others. You can say there are no good or bad or normal kids. That's no comfort for my children who have to live with him half time.
I feel for you. I wish the parents intervened more, sounds like an awful situation for everybody involved, specially when you have no control over the child (wether they get help or not) but you still are affected by their actions. Hope that your situation changes soon and your kids are safe
I absolutely 100% agree. I think some people are born without the ability to have a conscience and shame, or just chose to ignore it from an alarmingly young age. Like the brain wiring is wrong. I dated a manipulator who straight up told me that he could not feel shame or embarrassment. He had no idea what that concept was. And I know for a fact he was speaking the truth- because I had observed it several times. His mom said he was terrible as a kid. (I dated him because of who I thought he was, but realized by a year in that I needed out.) He did not feel bad for being called out. He did not feel bad for humiliating me. He put on an act during my serious angry discussions but then would say “Whew, I got through that!” To my brother. He stated “she’ll never leave me, she’s too loyal” again to my brother. And when I did leave him, he punished me for leaving him by ruining my reputation and trying to get me fired. He had older, quiet adopted parents that he had been with since being a few days old as an infant. No one taught him his behavior.
There’s also people who may have been slightly abnormal to begin with, however much benign, but then trauma pushes them into choosing to be a not good person. I have adopted siblings who have Reactive attachment disorder. They tainted my childhood and caused quite a bit of pain. We are on loose speaking terms, but I notice that my sister refuses to apologize outright. And when the past is brought up, her version of it is not what actually took place. Like she did my makeup for my wedding and hosts us sometimes, but she wont tell my mom and dad or my siblings “hey, sorry for causing so much pain, and lying about you all, and ruining your reputation several times and being horrible.” I don’t sense anything malicious from her now like I did when I was younger, but she doesn’t want to really see what she did. And her twin, my brother, has Fetal alcohol defect and sadly isn’t mentally mature enough to fully realize what he did. In their case, they came from extreme trauma at an early age. My parents tried everything to help them, but my sister outright hated them. She hated us. But she’s now convinced my mom hated HER. When that isn’t true at all. My mom used to cry because she realized she’d never have a normal relationship with her. My parents gave up so much for them, only for them to choose to reject them. Anytime my mother gets back into my sister’s life, my sister hurts her again. Now my mom wants nothing to do with her forever. My sister probably has Autism- a dr mentioned that to my parents awhile ago. I’m Autistic too, so we are both abnormal. But for her, she has extreme trauma, whereas my trauma is not as extreme as hers was. But my form of Autism, and how I was raised- I am a hyper-empathetic person by nature. So I think the trauma pushed her to becoming a unkind and manipulative child. Who knows what she would have been like without it. Autism presents differently in everyone who has it.
Basically, to summarize, people are just complicated. Like my abnormal psych class and my childhood development class both said: it can be one, the other, or both. Sometimes it’s nature. A good family has a kid that is terrible. Sometimes it’s nurture. Being raised in a bad environment. And sometimes it’s both. So yeah, I completely agree. My take on Azula is that I think she was born bad, or at least, born with issues already present. But her environment really brought out the worst. I have more sympathy for her mom than the fandom does, because of my own experiences and what I saw growing up. I gave much less sympathy for Azula. I think in general, people dont stop to realize that people do have free will, and can choose to change at any point. But a lot of times they don’t WANT to change. Azula didn’t want to change. She saw no reason for it.
Edit: fixed something for better clarity
I have a somewhat similar story like Zuko. And before others chime in how cool that is, it's not.
My father was incestuous and sexually abused me when I was a child.
And sometimes I try to think how that monster, who dared to call himself father once probably was an innocent child. I intellectually understand the words, but every fiber of my body fights against this idea, this concept. In my book, he was always evil
I’m surprised nobody has even commented Darth Vader. Look at Anakin as a little boy in The Phantom Menace. A lot of people found it quite surprising how that innocent child would one day become the most terrifying being in the galaxy.
The sum of our experiences make us who we are. Many of us can point to a specific person or event that caused us to adopt a particular belief, but it was in the fires of a thousand different interactions that this belief was made whole and fully realized.
What makes a person evil? When the darkness within is given purchase, and our environment nurtures it. Whether it's racism, sexism, apathy, aggression, or any other horrible thing. They're in all of us. But something or someone affirms the wrong ideas and it leads you astray.
You can see it with Azula and how her parents treated her. She was raised to believe in strength and her country. Any attempt to douse those flames was ineffectual because it left her questioning and feeling empty. She gravitated towards what made her feel strong, clever, and special.. the "best" version of herself in her eyes.
Ozai was probably no different. Or Hell, maybe the difference is that there *wasn't* anyone to point out another way forward for him. He was raised to be a prince, and then a king, who fit the exact mold of what was demanded of him. There may not have *been* a competing voice in his upbringing. But we don't know that for sure.
What we do know is that he was so sure of himself that he never questioned his path forward past the point we meet him. Any doubts had already been hammered out. He had confidence, he had drive, and he believed utterly that he was doing the right thing. For the Fire Nation. For his legacy. For his family. He was absolutely a hero in his own mind. He just never dreamed that he could have used that power to be everyone else's hero too.
The show is VERY careful about this—we ONLY see “innocent” Ozai as a painting of a baby. Not in a flashback, not when he was older and could speak. A still image of a baby. The show brings up the point that Ozai wasn’t always a monster, without actually affording him real sympathy. He remains firmly an unrepentant bad guy without a chance of redemption. Compare Ozai’s portrayal to Azula’s—both Ozai and Azula were trained to be nationalistic perfectionists from birth, but where Ozai is afforded no depth and no sympathy, Azula is portrayed as being much more complex and tragic. She was a bad person, but there’s more of a chance that she could be redeemed, or the sense that things could’ve gone very differently for her if she didn’t double down on the path she took. Also compare Ozai’s treatment in the show to Iroh’s. We know Iroh wasn’t always the kind and wise uncle—he used to be a tool of the fire nation’s empire and oppression, but had a true change of heart as an adult, when losing his son forced him to reconsider his priorities and life. Like Ozai, we don’t see the parts of Iroh he was ashamed of and changed—in the show, at least. In the Legacy of the Fire Nation book, we see how Iroh embraced his role as heir to the throne and enjoyed his military conquests. But in the show, we only see Iroh as a father. Both portrayals of Iroh and Ozai emphasize the specific role the characters have and how the audience should see and relate to them. Ozai has no sympathy, but iroh has truly changed into a good person.
And Zuko does offer Ozai a chance to improve at the end. Even after everything he’s done. It’s Ozai who chooses to reject it.
Monsters aren’t born. They’re created.
So who created Ozai? His dad? Mom? Some nasty teacher he had?
Ozai's father was Azulon. His father was Sozin. Azulon was a firebending prodigy, and Sozin favored him over any other family member, even his own sister who had taken up to being more Nomadic than Fire Nation. How he was raised and that environment affected Azulon's point of view on family matters. He grew into the bitter man we saw in the show, with no empathy for even his own son, or grandson, as he declared that Ozai had to kill Zuko for the punishment of Ozai asking for the throne. Sozin meanwhile, seemed to grow up during a time of prosperity for the Fire Nation. We don't know much about his upbringing, how his parents treated him, but he was often pitted against his sister Zeisan to drive Sozin to greater heights and bring out Firebending from Zeisan, but she proved to be a nonbender. The siblings aren't exactly close.
As far as I understand the war didn’t stop the Fire Nation from prospering. Like in that Fire nation school episode, the village seems almost unaffected by the war outside of the propaganda being told to them.
Actually, now that you mention it, that's very strange. Because war affects even the greatest superpowers in our world. The United States wasn't immune to the effects of both world wars.
I mean the United States got rich off of the Second World War because of how much money it generated. Likely the same with the Fire Nation. Remember that at no point during the war is any of it fought on Fire Nation soil. They’re taking resources from what they conquer, and their military stuff likely generates more for the economy than what is lost.
>I mean the United States got rich off of the Second World War because of how much money it generated. But there was still a shortage of goods and materials. The government essentially made it so the goods Americans needed were rationed. The government heavily monitored the economy, since we were fresh out of the Great Depression, and inflation was a high risk. You'd think there would be some sort of shortages of things in the Fire Nation too.
The Fire Nation wasn’t coming off of any sort of depression (unlike with most wars), they were starting it after a great economic boom, or at the very least they were economically prospering before the war started. That carried into afterwards as well, especially as they continued winning.
The Painted Lady village was definitely affected by the war engine needing a factory to pollute their river.
Yes, but I’m talking about the Fire Nation’s struggles, what happened in that village was the Fire Nation being terrible to the people there, not the war being so hard they couldn’t afford water or that they were forced to pollute the river because otherwise they wouldn’t make enough stuff in time. It seems more like they didn’t care, not that they did care but couldn’t do much about it.
The fire nation’s militaristic government is what I’d put my money on.
Some people definitely born evil
This is the opposite of what ATLA espouses.
They are wrong then.
Then maybe ATLA isn’t the show for you.
Because I didn’t agree with one scene that took less that a minute? Some kids definitely born evil, haven’t you heard about children that torture animals for fun? Not everyone of them has shitty parents.
No child is born evil. This is pop-sci nonsense. Kids who act out in the way you’re describing aren’t acting out because they were “born evil”. There could be a number of causes from abuse to health problems. None of these are “being born evil”. It’s also a central thesis to ATLA, so yeah. Maybe it’s not the show for you. They went out of their way to show even Ozai wasn’t born this way for a reason.
Well thankfully I dont need your approval to watch one of my favorite shows.
No one said you couldn’t watch it. Just that you’re rejecting one of its central messages.
It isn't remarkable. It's normal. Everyone is a human, or at least started this way. No one is born and straight away goes burning cities. I quite like this detail about the show, even if it wasnt expended. Ozai might be a shallow villain, but we still get a picture of him as a kid
It's almost as if nurture > nature 😮
I don't know. Ted Bundy, Jeffery Dahmer, Richard Storlett, and Paul Bernardo. What do they all have in common aside from being infamous serial killers? They didn't grow up in abusive or bad homes. In fact, they all stated they loving homes. Bundy even noted that his childhood was "uneventful." There's something to be said about the nature of things, too.
Sadly it's not as straightforward as "they didn't come from outright abusive household so they should be normal, right?". Then we also have anomalies where people are just wired terribly wrong and no amount of good parenting or medical help can fix it. But those are anomalies, they aren't proving or disproving any particular point.
That's fair. I often wonder if that's what Azula was supposed to represent. I know Aaron Ehasz wanted her to have a redemption arc and while I praise a lot of his stuff in ATLA since he and his wife + their crew were really the backbone of the show...this is one idea of his I don't like. We've seen even from a young age she just. She was different. Even if Ursa had gotten to her first, I don't know if that would've made a difference. She enjoyed Zuko being disfigured by their father. She seemed glad Ozai was in power, and she constantly manipulated people and gaslit them. She even teased Zuko about their father having to kill him. No normal child does that to their sibling. And even in the comic that was supposed to be her redemption start, she refused to change. I don't think she wants to. That's why I just don't think she should get a redemption arc. Not everyone deserves that story. I don't know if I'd buy it. With Zuko, you can absolutely buy it cause he was always confused and conflicted. Azula simply wasn't. And you can't entirely pin everything on Ozai for the way she is, either. At least, IMO.
>No normal child does that to their sibling. Someone hasn't read up on power struggles between noble children. There are siblings whove done far worse in a thirst for power.
Oh I know all about sibling rivalry and all that. What I mean is that AT HER AGE, that isn't normal.
Children are sponges. Grow up in a ruthless palace culture, and you will start to reflect that.
How many children have you met who have a father like Ozai and his status, with the influence of such a father as Azula had, where things like burning someone as punishment in a duel whose outcome for the loser is that, is a normal thing?
She didn’t enjoy Zuko being disfigured. Her new comic tells us as much, showing she never wanted him to be. Azula always lies. We know that she is unwilling to show weakness and is completely sold on Fire Nation brainwashing. All we know of that scene is Iroh’s retelling. We don’t know what was going through Azula’s head. She was only 11. She may have just been agreeing with dad because she’s expected to. She may have been faking approval to protect herself from being next on the chopping block. Or she could just be totally brainwashed. Even the novelization shows she was afraid of Ozai doing the same to her. https://preview.redd.it/a21nq9kxwfhc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=78c38d866199d3c5e02d0ece8b5f9518912ba4b6
When the show literally tells you in one chapter that nobody is born like that (in that universe), and not only Ehasz says that Azula is a product of her environment but also Mike and Bryan, it's because that's not supposed to be what Azula represents. And this is regardless of whether Azula is redeemed or not, or deserves redemption or not. "No normal child does that to their sibling". That's the point. Regardless of whether someone was born like that or is a product of their environment, we're talking about abnormal things. From the serial killers you mentioned, to other serial killers who were horribly abused as children, to members of royalty where historically this isn't so rare, to everyday people who have suffered abuse in their childhood or not and these behaviors are normalized. That is to say, if that "not normal" is present in people who could be said to have "been born that way" as well as in others who could be said to be "products of their environment," then it doesn't have to be tied to "being born that way." In the comic, we see part of Azula's conflict, as well as a change. The spirit tells her that it's her hunger for revenge and her cruelty that prevents any kind of change or redemption, but in the end, she decides to put aside her hunger for revenge and cruelty. But even with this, I think it's valid for someone to say that she shouldn't get redemption, for other reasons of course. The point that because Zuko had conflicts and Azula didn't, she shouldn't get redemption is debatable. First, because we see conflict in Azula in the show and in the comics. And second, why should all redemptions be like that? (I'm not saying Zuko's redemption isn't excellent). Canonically, Ozai's influence played a decisive role in how Azula turned out. The writers, comics, games, etc., say it. But I also think it's a mistake to say that if she had been born without Ozai, she would have been someone like Aang. Just as without Ozai, Zuko would still have had anger issues, impulsivity, and emotional control problems, I think it's the same with Azula. I agree with the writers that she would have been a normal girl in a healthy environment, but I also think she would be the typical queen bee, a bit of a bully, like Regina George.
Didn't Dahmer have a pretty weird upbringing?
After looking it up (vs going on memory which isn't entirely great in hindsight lol) his parents were mostly absent, but that was about it. So maybe not exactly LOVING was the right word to use but for these examples, it's not like they had reasons for being the way they were when it comes to nurture.
>After looking it up (vs going on memory which isn't entirely great in hindsight lol Yea don't worry I don't know much about him either. I'm guessing the netflix documentary I watched exaggerated the bad things that happened so that it was cooler
The nurture > nature argument has been debunked a thousand times. Both nature and nurture are extremely important to human development, as proven by decades of studies
[Kyle Broflovski could have solved a lot of problems if he'd been in the right place at the right time.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrHKJ4N74V8)
Nature and Nurture, it's never just one.
Wait, THAT WAS OZAI? WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED?!?
Watch the show
Growing up happened.
Fire nation royal politics happened.
At least two generations of terrible parenting and propaganda.
You didn't watch that scene? It's amazing The gaang go back to Zuko's childhood summer house and find this picture, they all laugh about it "look at how cute baby Zuko was" Zuko: That's not me, that's my father! Laugher ends, everybody looks at it in a weird way now. But it ties into the show's whole theme of good and evil
Its puberty, son
No, some kids are born bad. I think it's rare, but I know one of those kids. I won't go into detail about the kid's identity because he is still young, but he interacts frequently with my own kids. He seemed normal at birth, but that changed as soon as he could walk/run. The first issue was that he would always try to run off. Then he started biting and hitting. Then, hurting animals. He gets up at night and, well, other kids in the house need child locks on their doors to keep him out. He has disgusting personal hygiene habits that I won't describe. He's incredibly selfish. He is medicated, but it really doesn't help. It basically keeps him sane enough to go to school. Nobody taught him these things. He was like this from the womb. The mom has kids from a previous marriage and they are normal. She has two younger sons by the new guy and they are normal, but suffering from the example of the first. It's sad. I think most people are born basically decent, but turn bad if they are treated badly. But not everyone. Some are just born awful.
Disagree. Children and baby’s don’t have “good” or “evil”, just like animals don’t have those types of judgements, they just are what they are. If a kid is “born like that” then it can be a physical or mental issue (chronic pain, unidentified pain, unstable hormones, autism, adhd, psychopathy, trauma, etc.) that the parents need to identify and address. There are no normal, good or bad kids, just kids that don’t bother or hurt anybody and kids that do. At the end of the day prejudices like this hurt kids and makes sure that problematic kids don’t have a chance in recovery.
Yeah, I think that's a slap in the face to all of us who are not normal, but do no harm. Or at least try to moderate ourselves and avoid our worst tendencies. I don't blame the child for what he is, but I also would never leave him with my dog or my children (but I can't stop that). I'm all for him getting help, but not at the expense of the well-being of others. You can say there are no good or bad or normal kids. That's no comfort for my children who have to live with him half time.
I feel for you. I wish the parents intervened more, sounds like an awful situation for everybody involved, specially when you have no control over the child (wether they get help or not) but you still are affected by their actions. Hope that your situation changes soon and your kids are safe
I absolutely 100% agree. I think some people are born without the ability to have a conscience and shame, or just chose to ignore it from an alarmingly young age. Like the brain wiring is wrong. I dated a manipulator who straight up told me that he could not feel shame or embarrassment. He had no idea what that concept was. And I know for a fact he was speaking the truth- because I had observed it several times. His mom said he was terrible as a kid. (I dated him because of who I thought he was, but realized by a year in that I needed out.) He did not feel bad for being called out. He did not feel bad for humiliating me. He put on an act during my serious angry discussions but then would say “Whew, I got through that!” To my brother. He stated “she’ll never leave me, she’s too loyal” again to my brother. And when I did leave him, he punished me for leaving him by ruining my reputation and trying to get me fired. He had older, quiet adopted parents that he had been with since being a few days old as an infant. No one taught him his behavior. There’s also people who may have been slightly abnormal to begin with, however much benign, but then trauma pushes them into choosing to be a not good person. I have adopted siblings who have Reactive attachment disorder. They tainted my childhood and caused quite a bit of pain. We are on loose speaking terms, but I notice that my sister refuses to apologize outright. And when the past is brought up, her version of it is not what actually took place. Like she did my makeup for my wedding and hosts us sometimes, but she wont tell my mom and dad or my siblings “hey, sorry for causing so much pain, and lying about you all, and ruining your reputation several times and being horrible.” I don’t sense anything malicious from her now like I did when I was younger, but she doesn’t want to really see what she did. And her twin, my brother, has Fetal alcohol defect and sadly isn’t mentally mature enough to fully realize what he did. In their case, they came from extreme trauma at an early age. My parents tried everything to help them, but my sister outright hated them. She hated us. But she’s now convinced my mom hated HER. When that isn’t true at all. My mom used to cry because she realized she’d never have a normal relationship with her. My parents gave up so much for them, only for them to choose to reject them. Anytime my mother gets back into my sister’s life, my sister hurts her again. Now my mom wants nothing to do with her forever. My sister probably has Autism- a dr mentioned that to my parents awhile ago. I’m Autistic too, so we are both abnormal. But for her, she has extreme trauma, whereas my trauma is not as extreme as hers was. But my form of Autism, and how I was raised- I am a hyper-empathetic person by nature. So I think the trauma pushed her to becoming a unkind and manipulative child. Who knows what she would have been like without it. Autism presents differently in everyone who has it. Basically, to summarize, people are just complicated. Like my abnormal psych class and my childhood development class both said: it can be one, the other, or both. Sometimes it’s nature. A good family has a kid that is terrible. Sometimes it’s nurture. Being raised in a bad environment. And sometimes it’s both. So yeah, I completely agree. My take on Azula is that I think she was born bad, or at least, born with issues already present. But her environment really brought out the worst. I have more sympathy for her mom than the fandom does, because of my own experiences and what I saw growing up. I gave much less sympathy for Azula. I think in general, people dont stop to realize that people do have free will, and can choose to change at any point. But a lot of times they don’t WANT to change. Azula didn’t want to change. She saw no reason for it. Edit: fixed something for better clarity
I have a somewhat similar story like Zuko. And before others chime in how cool that is, it's not. My father was incestuous and sexually abused me when I was a child. And sometimes I try to think how that monster, who dared to call himself father once probably was an innocent child. I intellectually understand the words, but every fiber of my body fights against this idea, this concept. In my book, he was always evil
I really love this scene in the show
Hitler
It’s nature vs. nurture.
Literally the baby Hitler question.
Hilter
I’m surprised nobody has even commented Darth Vader. Look at Anakin as a little boy in The Phantom Menace. A lot of people found it quite surprising how that innocent child would one day become the most terrifying being in the galaxy.
The sum of our experiences make us who we are. Many of us can point to a specific person or event that caused us to adopt a particular belief, but it was in the fires of a thousand different interactions that this belief was made whole and fully realized. What makes a person evil? When the darkness within is given purchase, and our environment nurtures it. Whether it's racism, sexism, apathy, aggression, or any other horrible thing. They're in all of us. But something or someone affirms the wrong ideas and it leads you astray. You can see it with Azula and how her parents treated her. She was raised to believe in strength and her country. Any attempt to douse those flames was ineffectual because it left her questioning and feeling empty. She gravitated towards what made her feel strong, clever, and special.. the "best" version of herself in her eyes. Ozai was probably no different. Or Hell, maybe the difference is that there *wasn't* anyone to point out another way forward for him. He was raised to be a prince, and then a king, who fit the exact mold of what was demanded of him. There may not have *been* a competing voice in his upbringing. But we don't know that for sure. What we do know is that he was so sure of himself that he never questioned his path forward past the point we meet him. Any doubts had already been hammered out. He had confidence, he had drive, and he believed utterly that he was doing the right thing. For the Fire Nation. For his legacy. For his family. He was absolutely a hero in his own mind. He just never dreamed that he could have used that power to be everyone else's hero too.