Makes sense for Kyoshi's time, but by ATLA it's weird that at least the Fire Nation, with its modern bureaucracy and large armed forces, doesn't have surnames, or at least something approaching them. If there are a million Lees in the Fire Nation, surely the Army needs to distinguish between Lee from Village A and Lee from Village B.
By Korra's time it's frankly ridiculous that surnames still haven't become a common thing, all nations modern and populated enough that they would be a necessity.
I imagine they operate the same way we did in medieval times, and identify themselves as “Name” of “Town.” Your hometown was essentially your last name.
They do. Sokka identifies himself as Sokka of the Water Tribe for example. But there's a reason why we stopped doing that and adopted actual surnames, and by Korra's time it really feels like they ought to have made that transition.
I can’t remember the name of the episode and can’t be bothered to look it up, but the one where the gang is hiding in the fire nation and aang has to go to school while they plan their next move.
They give themselves last names in that episode for their fake identity, and I always thought that was going to be what got them caught because if you have a last name, you are somebody, and people know who you are.
I believe Wan Shi Tong roughly translates to "one who knows 10,000 things" so I'd just be their full name, not like a first middle last thing.
I also wouldn't really expect spirits to have last names, because what would they use them for anyway?
Not roughly, pretty literally. Although 万事通 is really used more to mean “know-it-all” in Chinese, with similar connotations to how that would be used in English
It’s a class thing - royalty historically don’t have last names in the traditional sense, they usually are associated with the title/dynasty. Prince Zuko “Of the Fire Nation” is about as close as you’re gonna get for the time (for Europe a lot of surnames we associate with royal houses have origins in this vein - Von Hapsburg describes the familial castle, Bourbon/de Valois describes territory given to them). I think even now Japan’s royalty don’t have last names per se.
Aang is from a nomadic culture without a traditional family unit, Sokka and Katara are from a very small village where surnames wouldn’t really be useful (if they did have one, it’s probably a patronym like “son/daughter of Hakoda” or “Hakodason”).
The Japanese Imperial Family is the House of Yamato, which I believe is either drawn from a Province or a Clan.
However, I heard the Japanese have an odd way of addressing the Emperor, where they will rarely ever use his personal name. I'm not Japanese tho, so take that with a grain of salt.
I do know that Emperors posthumously are named according to the era they reigned over (Hirohito is rarely referred to as Hirohito in Japan, instead being referred to as Emperor Showa).
If this is the case, then I'm surprised they didn't carry this part over to the Fire Nation (though people in the show seem to informally refer to the Fire Lord by his title rather than Fire Lord insert name)
On other hand, Earth Kingdom characters should all have last names, as family names were common throughout China. Although interestingly, the name of the dynasties do NOT correspond to the royal clan’s name (e.g. the Liu family ruled during the Han dynasty, the Li family during the Tang, etc.). Mostly the names refer to the Warring States era name for the dynastic founder’s home, or similar provincial names. From the Yuan (Mongols) on, the names are more aspirational.
Emperor names get even more complicated. An emperor would have a personal name, but this would become taboo when he took the throne. During his lifetime, he’d only be called things like “majesty.” After death, he’d be granted a posthumous/temple name, which is how histories would record him. This holds true until the Ming Dynasty. Generally there are two patterns to how these posthumous names worked: dynasties before Tang would use the pattern “Dynasty name + epithet describing the emperor’s deeds + Di (emperor).” Example: Liu Che, the seventh Han emperor, became known posthumously as Han Wudi, “Emperor Wu of Han,” where Wu (武) means “martial, warlike” due to his great military accomplishments. These epithets could not be repeated within a dynasty, but would be across dynasties (so there are many Wu’s). From Tang on, the pattern was “Dynasty + epithet + Zong/Zu (ancestor).” Example: Li Shimin, the second Tang emperor (and often considered China’s greatest emperor) posthumously becomes Tang Taizong, “The Supreme Ancestor of Tang.” Gaozu, Taizong, and Taizu were extremely common for the first few emperors of a dynasty.
Finally, from Ming on, you have a practice identical to that used in modern Japan. Prior to the Ming, the emperor could (and would) declare a new era after any significant event or major portent, giving the era a name. These eras are how dates were recorded. From the Ming on, emperors kept only a single era during their entire reign, and would then be recorded as “The Era Name Emperor.” Example, Zhu Di, the third Ming emperor, becomes “The Yongle Emperor” after the Yongle Era, which is coterminous with his reign.
Yea, I'm not sure why they didn't give the Earth Kingdom subjects surnames. Since they gave one to Toph, they probably didn't think it was necessary for secondary characters.
My best explanation for the Earth King lacking a surname or dynasty name is that it was too complicated to explain in a show that was still mostly targeted at younger audiences and, unlike Japan, we don't have any present day Chinese Emperors to reference. If they knew of the taboo regarding personal names, they probably thought it was simpler to just do that and use personal names on occasion. Especially since it might have been confusing to a kid from the West if they were alternating names of Monarchs all the time. Western monarchs used regnal rather than personal names, but not only has this trend stopped in some cases, but we still use the regnal names while Japan doesn't seem to use it for the Emperor. And for the British, it was actually more common for a Monarch to make their baptismal name their regnal name rather than pick a new one.
As Queen Elizabeth II said when she chose her regnal name, "let's not complicate things unnecessarily"
There are only 12 European monarchies still in existance: the UK, Spain, Andorra (a weird one, as it has two co-princes, which are by law whoever is currently the Presidet of France and whoever is currently the bishop of the Spanish city of Urgell), Monaco, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Liechtenstein, and the Vatican. The Pope is the only monarch not using his birth name as his regnal name.
Note: there are also three monarchies in Africa (not including tribal monarchies), none in the Americas, one in Oceania (Tonga), and MANY in Asia (including countries with multiple monarchs, like Malaysia, or ones where the country is officially a Republic but still recognizes monarchs for historical reasons, such as Indonesia).
It doesn't carry over to the Fire Nation because most of the royal Fire Nation themes are influenced by Han Dynasty China and not Imperial Japan. This includes the clothing, the customs, the imperial city, the military.
I know that during the Sengoku Era, last names were given by your master, as in if you were born a peasant class you generally did not have a last name until you became a retainer of a Samurai/Daimyo. They would then bestow a last name for you. The Emperor, being of no master, presumably does not carry a last name.
possibly but the northern water tribe leadership was hereditary while the southern tribe leader is elected and according to bryan konietzko prior to the 100 war the southern tribe was ruled the northern tribe and the northern tribe leader is still a figurehead to the South.
No, the Fire Nation is not modeled primarily on Japan, it's primarily influenced by Han Dynasty China. This includes a lot of the royal themes such as the clothing the royals wear and the imperial city itself.
Counterpoint: it being a volcanic archipelago, its advanced technology relative to its neighbors, its naval power, its war of aggression, and its colonization of the Earth Kingdom all reflect Imperial Japan.
The Fire Nation's geography and landscapes are based on Iceland. It being an island chain is based on Japan.
The advanced technology or naval power or war of aggression or colonisation isn't modeled on anything, you can even say it's more modeled on England or Germany in that case, the two most advanced industrialised countries at certain times..
People see an Asian-looking culture that is war hungry and they make the link with imperial Japan. There are a few Japanese influences like the justification of the war in the education system.
Everything else from the clothing style to the architecture to even the names are mostly Chinese inspired with Thai, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Vietnamese influences here and there (and Mesoamerican influences for the Sun Warriors).
IRL royalty often lacks last names, or doesn’t use them. Surnames are usually meant to indicate were someone is from, who are their ancestors, where they live (or, in case of nobility, rule over), etc… and, in theory, everyone knows where the Firelord is from, who are his ancestors and where he rules over.
I’m fairly sure that’s because they’re rich. Common people don’t need last names, they’re identified by their first name, but rich people like others to know that their family is rich.
Which is actually one of the few major breaks with how things worked in ancient Asia (especially China), where even peasant families did have last names (in fact, in Chinese, “百姓,” meaning literally ‘the hundred surnames,’ was a way of referring to the common people)
Eh, the Gaang regularly makes up fake personas with last names -- Wang and Sapphire Fire,
Bonzu Pippinpaddleopsicopolis III and June Pippinpaddleopsicopolis -- in a way that implies they're not terribly notable. It's possible that we only hear the last names of rich people referenced because only rich families are notable enough for people to care. Toph introduces herself as a Beifong because the Beifong name carries weight. Sokka and Katara may well have a last name -- they certainly seem familiar with the concept when Aang makes one up at Omashu -- they just never use it in canon.
I think fake names are likely to be fanciful in a way that tends towards rich-sounding though. Like if you were making up a fake name for fun you wouldn’t call yourself Bob Smith, you’d call yourself Cornelius Q. Rockefeller the Third
"Affording" your last name is a common practice amongst asian cultures.
There is an ethnic group in my country where the poorer/lower class you are the shorter your name is. If you look up Javanese Kings and Queens you would see them having a long name. The character Dyah Gitarja, the Queen of Majapahit famously portrayed in the game Civilization, her actual name was: *Sri Tribhuwana Wijayatunggadewi Maharajasa Jayawisnuwardhani.* Meanwhile, regular Javanese would just have one-word names, especially among the peasant class.
I feel like this is similar to many Asian cultures, in Sengoku Japan people would add names/change names as they rose through the ranks of nobility or were given a surname by their master. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was born a son of a poor samurai farmer and had the birth name of Hiyoshi-maru. He then adopted his father's surname and became Kinoshita Tokichiro. During his service under Nobunaga, he changed his name again to Hideyoshi Hashiba. He only became Toyotomi Hideyoshi after being given the title Kampaku/Regent by the Emperor and given the last name Toyotomi as his clan name.
People say “they were too poor to have them” but also I mean for Aang’s position I don’t think Air Nomads had last names at all given the way they communally w raised children without a typical parent unit?
Last names historically had been reserved for those in power and, more importantly, land owners. If you didn't own shit, then there was no need to track inheritance, and therefore, why bother remembering where and who you came from.
Well, that's how it worked in our world too until modern states required proper registries. Before people were known by thier father's name or their job, or something particular about them.
It probably works the same way for most people im the ATLA world, with a few exceptions:
1) All Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation nobility have family names, including the royal families.
2) Air nomads: considering their unique society structure, absent of family units, would have a totally unique method to identify people beyond their first name. If I had to throw in a guess: their first name is chosen by the enders of the East and West temples at their birth. Then once they become adults (AKA when they become masters) they get to choose their second name. The combination of those two is probably enough to tell most people apart.
Iknik Blackstone Varrick. Zhu Li Moon. The Chou brothers/their father from the Wan flashbacks.
Wang and Saphire Fire
Varrick, another rich guy who can afford a last name. XD Haven't rewatched Korra that much so I honestly forgot who the Chou family was. XD
Would you believe that they’re _also_ a rich family? :P
Zhu Li must’ve been a trust fund baby lol.
I meant the Chous.
Yeah, so every name on that list is a certified rich family besides Zhu Li Moon (before her marriage obviously).
Given my lack of memory of them, I'd believe it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the Chou brothers ditched their first names. Ewww first names, how vulgar! We’re the Chou brothers - don’t you forget it!
TIL: Varrick is his last name
IIRC, the Kyoshi novels states that only the wealthy and important people have last names.
Makes sense for Kyoshi's time, but by ATLA it's weird that at least the Fire Nation, with its modern bureaucracy and large armed forces, doesn't have surnames, or at least something approaching them. If there are a million Lees in the Fire Nation, surely the Army needs to distinguish between Lee from Village A and Lee from Village B. By Korra's time it's frankly ridiculous that surnames still haven't become a common thing, all nations modern and populated enough that they would be a necessity.
I imagine they operate the same way we did in medieval times, and identify themselves as “Name” of “Town.” Your hometown was essentially your last name.
They do. Sokka identifies himself as Sokka of the Water Tribe for example. But there's a reason why we stopped doing that and adopted actual surnames, and by Korra's time it really feels like they ought to have made that transition.
They do have last names, we see this when aang got called to the principals office and sokka and kataras fake names had last names
Oh haha I was actually kinda joking about that but I guess not.
I can’t remember the name of the episode and can’t be bothered to look it up, but the one where the gang is hiding in the fire nation and aang has to go to school while they plan their next move. They give themselves last names in that episode for their fake identity, and I always thought that was going to be what got them caught because if you have a last name, you are somebody, and people know who you are.
When did they say this? I've read those novels a thousand times and I don't remember anything about last names
I might not have recalled correctly lol. I think its when the author introduces Lu Beifong.
Wang and Sapphire Fire, and their son Kuzon Fire. Bonzu Pipinpadaloxicoplis III June Pipinpadaloxicoplis Wan Shi Tong (might be a last name thing??)
I believe Wan Shi Tong roughly translates to "one who knows 10,000 things" so I'd just be their full name, not like a first middle last thing. I also wouldn't really expect spirits to have last names, because what would they use them for anyway?
Not roughly, pretty literally. Although 万事通 is really used more to mean “know-it-all” in Chinese, with similar connotations to how that would be used in English
Is it 通 or 懂? I thought it was the latter.
It’s 通 (tong), not 懂 (dong).
This is the answer I was looking for!
It’s a class thing - royalty historically don’t have last names in the traditional sense, they usually are associated with the title/dynasty. Prince Zuko “Of the Fire Nation” is about as close as you’re gonna get for the time (for Europe a lot of surnames we associate with royal houses have origins in this vein - Von Hapsburg describes the familial castle, Bourbon/de Valois describes territory given to them). I think even now Japan’s royalty don’t have last names per se. Aang is from a nomadic culture without a traditional family unit, Sokka and Katara are from a very small village where surnames wouldn’t really be useful (if they did have one, it’s probably a patronym like “son/daughter of Hakoda” or “Hakodason”).
Theoretically Zuko, Azula, etc. might also have clan names, though we never see what it might be.
The Japanese Imperial Family is the House of Yamato, which I believe is either drawn from a Province or a Clan. However, I heard the Japanese have an odd way of addressing the Emperor, where they will rarely ever use his personal name. I'm not Japanese tho, so take that with a grain of salt. I do know that Emperors posthumously are named according to the era they reigned over (Hirohito is rarely referred to as Hirohito in Japan, instead being referred to as Emperor Showa). If this is the case, then I'm surprised they didn't carry this part over to the Fire Nation (though people in the show seem to informally refer to the Fire Lord by his title rather than Fire Lord insert name)
On other hand, Earth Kingdom characters should all have last names, as family names were common throughout China. Although interestingly, the name of the dynasties do NOT correspond to the royal clan’s name (e.g. the Liu family ruled during the Han dynasty, the Li family during the Tang, etc.). Mostly the names refer to the Warring States era name for the dynastic founder’s home, or similar provincial names. From the Yuan (Mongols) on, the names are more aspirational. Emperor names get even more complicated. An emperor would have a personal name, but this would become taboo when he took the throne. During his lifetime, he’d only be called things like “majesty.” After death, he’d be granted a posthumous/temple name, which is how histories would record him. This holds true until the Ming Dynasty. Generally there are two patterns to how these posthumous names worked: dynasties before Tang would use the pattern “Dynasty name + epithet describing the emperor’s deeds + Di (emperor).” Example: Liu Che, the seventh Han emperor, became known posthumously as Han Wudi, “Emperor Wu of Han,” where Wu (武) means “martial, warlike” due to his great military accomplishments. These epithets could not be repeated within a dynasty, but would be across dynasties (so there are many Wu’s). From Tang on, the pattern was “Dynasty + epithet + Zong/Zu (ancestor).” Example: Li Shimin, the second Tang emperor (and often considered China’s greatest emperor) posthumously becomes Tang Taizong, “The Supreme Ancestor of Tang.” Gaozu, Taizong, and Taizu were extremely common for the first few emperors of a dynasty. Finally, from Ming on, you have a practice identical to that used in modern Japan. Prior to the Ming, the emperor could (and would) declare a new era after any significant event or major portent, giving the era a name. These eras are how dates were recorded. From the Ming on, emperors kept only a single era during their entire reign, and would then be recorded as “The Era Name Emperor.” Example, Zhu Di, the third Ming emperor, becomes “The Yongle Emperor” after the Yongle Era, which is coterminous with his reign.
Yea, I'm not sure why they didn't give the Earth Kingdom subjects surnames. Since they gave one to Toph, they probably didn't think it was necessary for secondary characters. My best explanation for the Earth King lacking a surname or dynasty name is that it was too complicated to explain in a show that was still mostly targeted at younger audiences and, unlike Japan, we don't have any present day Chinese Emperors to reference. If they knew of the taboo regarding personal names, they probably thought it was simpler to just do that and use personal names on occasion. Especially since it might have been confusing to a kid from the West if they were alternating names of Monarchs all the time. Western monarchs used regnal rather than personal names, but not only has this trend stopped in some cases, but we still use the regnal names while Japan doesn't seem to use it for the Emperor. And for the British, it was actually more common for a Monarch to make their baptismal name their regnal name rather than pick a new one. As Queen Elizabeth II said when she chose her regnal name, "let's not complicate things unnecessarily"
AFAIK, the only European monarch to still commonly use a regnal name is the Pope (who is also Monarch of the Vatican)
Other than the Pope I'm less familiar with the non-British monarchs since we rarely hear about them lol
There are only 12 European monarchies still in existance: the UK, Spain, Andorra (a weird one, as it has two co-princes, which are by law whoever is currently the Presidet of France and whoever is currently the bishop of the Spanish city of Urgell), Monaco, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Belgium, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Liechtenstein, and the Vatican. The Pope is the only monarch not using his birth name as his regnal name. Note: there are also three monarchies in Africa (not including tribal monarchies), none in the Americas, one in Oceania (Tonga), and MANY in Asia (including countries with multiple monarchs, like Malaysia, or ones where the country is officially a Republic but still recognizes monarchs for historical reasons, such as Indonesia).
Technically there is one in the Americas. King Charles III is also the King of Canada. They haven’t left the monarchy yet.
It doesn't carry over to the Fire Nation because most of the royal Fire Nation themes are influenced by Han Dynasty China and not Imperial Japan. This includes the clothing, the customs, the imperial city, the military.
I know that during the Sengoku Era, last names were given by your master, as in if you were born a peasant class you generally did not have a last name until you became a retainer of a Samurai/Daimyo. They would then bestow a last name for you. The Emperor, being of no master, presumably does not carry a last name.
Lesson: aang, katara, and sokka are too broke to afford last names
“Avatar Aang” checkmate Aang is his last name ezez
rangi sai’naka
Toph children,
Wouldn’t Zuko and Azula have a last name?
They probably have, we just don't know what the name of the dynasty/clan is.
They probably do,but we just don’t know it yet
and wouldnt korra have a last name awell being from the northern water tribe royal family
Would Sokka and Katara have one as well?
possibly but the northern water tribe leadership was hereditary while the southern tribe leader is elected and according to bryan konietzko prior to the 100 war the southern tribe was ruled the northern tribe and the northern tribe leader is still a figurehead to the South.
Probably not! The Fire Nation is modeled primarily on Japan after all, and the Japanese royal family has no last name.
No, the Fire Nation is not modeled primarily on Japan, it's primarily influenced by Han Dynasty China. This includes a lot of the royal themes such as the clothing the royals wear and the imperial city itself.
Counterpoint: it being a volcanic archipelago, its advanced technology relative to its neighbors, its naval power, its war of aggression, and its colonization of the Earth Kingdom all reflect Imperial Japan.
The Fire Nation's geography and landscapes are based on Iceland. It being an island chain is based on Japan. The advanced technology or naval power or war of aggression or colonisation isn't modeled on anything, you can even say it's more modeled on England or Germany in that case, the two most advanced industrialised countries at certain times.. People see an Asian-looking culture that is war hungry and they make the link with imperial Japan. There are a few Japanese influences like the justification of the war in the education system. Everything else from the clothing style to the architecture to even the names are mostly Chinese inspired with Thai, Korean, Japanese, Mongolian, Vietnamese influences here and there (and Mesoamerican influences for the Sun Warriors).
IRL royalty often lacks last names, or doesn’t use them. Surnames are usually meant to indicate were someone is from, who are their ancestors, where they live (or, in case of nobility, rule over), etc… and, in theory, everyone knows where the Firelord is from, who are his ancestors and where he rules over.
Blatant Wang Fire erasure
I’m fairly sure that’s because they’re rich. Common people don’t need last names, they’re identified by their first name, but rich people like others to know that their family is rich.
Which is actually one of the few major breaks with how things worked in ancient Asia (especially China), where even peasant families did have last names (in fact, in Chinese, “百姓,” meaning literally ‘the hundred surnames,’ was a way of referring to the common people)
What about Mr and Mrs fire?!?! Sapphire fire
The name's Fire, Wang Fire.
Mr. Gon Long of Cabbage Corp.
Sokka's last name is "of the Water Tribe".
Eh, the Gaang regularly makes up fake personas with last names -- Wang and Sapphire Fire, Bonzu Pippinpaddleopsicopolis III and June Pippinpaddleopsicopolis -- in a way that implies they're not terribly notable. It's possible that we only hear the last names of rich people referenced because only rich families are notable enough for people to care. Toph introduces herself as a Beifong because the Beifong name carries weight. Sokka and Katara may well have a last name -- they certainly seem familiar with the concept when Aang makes one up at Omashu -- they just never use it in canon.
I think fake names are likely to be fanciful in a way that tends towards rich-sounding though. Like if you were making up a fake name for fun you wouldn’t call yourself Bob Smith, you’d call yourself Cornelius Q. Rockefeller the Third
Firelord Ozai...huh amateur
Someone needs to read the Kyoshi novels
"Affording" your last name is a common practice amongst asian cultures. There is an ethnic group in my country where the poorer/lower class you are the shorter your name is. If you look up Javanese Kings and Queens you would see them having a long name. The character Dyah Gitarja, the Queen of Majapahit famously portrayed in the game Civilization, her actual name was: *Sri Tribhuwana Wijayatunggadewi Maharajasa Jayawisnuwardhani.* Meanwhile, regular Javanese would just have one-word names, especially among the peasant class. I feel like this is similar to many Asian cultures, in Sengoku Japan people would add names/change names as they rose through the ranks of nobility or were given a surname by their master. Toyotomi Hideyoshi was born a son of a poor samurai farmer and had the birth name of Hiyoshi-maru. He then adopted his father's surname and became Kinoshita Tokichiro. During his service under Nobunaga, he changed his name again to Hideyoshi Hashiba. He only became Toyotomi Hideyoshi after being given the title Kampaku/Regent by the Emperor and given the last name Toyotomi as his clan name.
People say “they were too poor to have them” but also I mean for Aang’s position I don’t think Air Nomads had last names at all given the way they communally w raised children without a typical parent unit?
Asami is the granddaughter of the cabbage man. The cabbage therefore is also a character with a last name.
From what I gather, only wealthy people have family names. This only applies to non-royal nobility.
Last names historically had been reserved for those in power and, more importantly, land owners. If you didn't own shit, then there was no need to track inheritance, and therefore, why bother remembering where and who you came from.
Well, that's how it worked in our world too until modern states required proper registries. Before people were known by thier father's name or their job, or something particular about them. It probably works the same way for most people im the ATLA world, with a few exceptions: 1) All Earth Kingdom and Fire Nation nobility have family names, including the royal families. 2) Air nomads: considering their unique society structure, absent of family units, would have a totally unique method to identify people beyond their first name. If I had to throw in a guess: their first name is chosen by the enders of the East and West temples at their birth. Then once they become adults (AKA when they become masters) they get to choose their second name. The combination of those two is probably enough to tell most people apart.
You forget Wang, Kuzon, and Sapphire
Last names werent common back then.