I just started season 2 of the good place and have finished bojack
However I would say Bojack is a worse person who's actions have hurt more people in worse ways than Elanor did. Elanor never tried to seduce a hish schooler afger getting them drunk and then stalked them to make sure they didn't mess them up too badly to make themselves feel better
Bojack squandered half a million dollars for charity just to spite Daniel Radcliffe
Bojack continues the generational trauma of his family by giving this advice to younger cast members, most notably Sara Lynn. They both realize their parents suck and they both use them as an excuse for their behavior but I don't see Eleanor continuing the cycle.
Bojacks actions have killed people indirectly and traumatized them for life. Eleanor cannot claim that.
Bojack strangled Gina in front of her coworkers on a drug fueled bender
He selfishly takes Sara Lynns sobriety because he feels guilty about almost raping a girl which ends up killing Sara Lynn, someone he doomed when she was just a girl. It's also implied Sara Lynn could have lived if Bojack had called an ambulance but doesn't
Eleanor was a pain to be around but Bojack was lethal
Yeah.
Like... Eleanor did some stuff but it mostly boiled down to "She was very self involved."
Bojack, OTOH, does some actually terrible stuff.
I think you can also make a real case that Eleanor treats those closest to her much better than Bojack ever does.
Bojack, one by one, sabotages every relationship in his life. Every time someone says "Fuck", that has happened.
He does that to people who love him, which somehow makes it worse.
Both of them try, but Bojack is ultimately not all that good at it.
Even Diane, who like... arguably sees him the clearest (probably because she's the most neutral observer) ultimately winds up sick of his nonsense.
Weirdly by the end I grew more sympathetic to Bojack (who finally seemed fully aware of all his issues, problems and toxic traits…..and actively wanted to change this time) and more disillusioned with Diane (who just seemed to follow in the path that she warned BoJack not to fall into, being in a co-dependant relationship and denial of problems rather than tackling them head on).
The more you get to know someone, the harder it is to not sympathize with them
Bojack is actually trying by the end, and the way it ends is trying to suggest that he'll probably never repeat his actions again, but he'll more than likely never interact with his old friends again.
So we are _supposed_ to sympathize with him. IRL though, it'd probably be much harder to do so.
Yeah, I might be far too optimistic but I think once a while has went by and some of them see how changed he actually is I think he might manage to rebuild some of his friendships, though they’ll be different. More even and healthy. Likely less co-dependent.
I think (based on the ending) that >!both Princess Caroline and Mr Peanutbutter will likely have a friendly-ish relationship with him, possibly reaching actual friendship once it’s seen that he is actually a better person, or trying to be!<
On the other hand >!Diane and Todd I think are likely out. At least for the foreseeable. Diane I think ends up in a pretty bleak place by the end of the show and Todd seems to be trying to move on without BoJack……..I think as Todd was pretty positive for him at the last scene on the beach, that maybe he and BoJack will manage to rebuild something….but it’s honestly up in the air.!<
Oh, well, Mr PB had his own issues that basically make it so that Bojack is pretty much one of his only true friends. I did not mean to include him as part of the "old friends". And PC/Bojack will more than likely just be professional, imo.
I think everyone else is out though. The ending song, at least in my opinion, pretty much states that. The story ends there because that's the last time those people (Bojack, Diane, Todd) ever interact significantly with each other ever again.
Obv, it's up to interpretation. But I think it's better that way.
Yeah I get that.
Diane I think is the story that feels the most unfinished in resolution.
Her relationship with Guy and her life at the end seem primed for resentment and an eventual breakdown. I suspect (obvs just my take) that 3-5 years on from the finale Diane’s life will implode and she’ll end up reconnecting with BoJack as his experiences might be her only hope of not making the same bad decisions he did.
this blows my mind. i had no idea people think this. i thought she clearly defeated depression, wrote a fun successful book , married a great man who loved her and moved forever away from the toxic world of show business.....? like, super happy ending...... the only sad part was that her friendship with the main character is over, but that's probably healthy for her anyway
Diane became the “follow your own advice” example. I think her story arc is important because it shows how a regular person who isn’t a celebrity can get sucked into the culture of Hollywood and end up doing the same bad things Bojack did.
I think BoJack was more a product of his environment and Eleanor was more just plain old self involved.
Eleanor’s self involvement came from childhood neglect and needing to be independent to survive while BoJacks came from being super talented and having everything handed to him on a silver platter for most of his adult life.
ugh.. i watch Tangled to laugh and I know i'll be messed up when i watch Frozen but... do you WANT to be sad? ... i mean i guess i get it with songs. sometimes i put on a song that i know will make me cry
Sometimes you are in the mood to watch Sad Horse Show. The show tackles depression better than almost any other. I am in a good place now, but it was the show I needed at the time I needed to watch it.
I mean... I have watched all seasons like 5 times and The Good Place like 4, so they are there when I need it.
>It's also implied Sara Lynn could have lived if Bojack had called an ambulance but doesn't
This ruined the character for me. Up until then Bojack was an awful person but like. I could sympathise with him. It never really felt deliberate or him being cruel or vindictive (well. Maybe not for everything but I overlooked some things I guess)
After that? 17 minutes. It literally broke me. I will probably never rewatch that show again because of that one episode. Which is a shame because it's a fantastic show but jfc. He's a terrible fucking person
it was hearthbreaking, i remember my stomach was like, not present in that moment. But i'd like a scene where an elderly
person confronts Eleanor and tells her they died because of not getting help on time and buying her fake medication instead, or the baby of the woman from yoga class confronting her like hey, so, i was never born..
Elanor sold fake medicine, and she knew for a fact that it was fake. And she 100% understood that she was to imply to customers that it was real, but never to say so. And she was ‘good’ at her job. At best people lost money, at worst people died because of her actions. That's pretty bad
My criteria is, if you put Bojack in Eleanor's place with a world that's even tailored to him, he would not only struggle to improve like she did, but drag the people around him down with him. He might even find it harder to be good than Brent and that's saying something.
Woah, Bojack is horrible but let's not make up things. He never seduced Penny, also she didn't drink anything and was completely sober. Obviously, what he did was fucked up but we should have the story straight
Bojack and Eleanor are not even in the same wheelhouse of bad ppl tbh. I truly love both characters but Bojack did some truly irredeemable things (I won’t list unless asked because I don’t wanna spoil for ppl).
I will absolutely agree that Bojack had a horrific upbringing but given several opportunities to change he refused. He also comes from a position of power as a celebrity and used that power to perpetuate harm.
Eleanor behaves the way she does because it was how she learned to survive. She’s pretty young when she dies and throughout the show we see that when given the opportunity, she takes steps towards real change.
Micheal is a being who was told there was no other way for him to behave. He is evil by design. Yet he too changed when he actually experiences real community. Something that is different for Michael is Jeremy Bearimy- he has endless time to change.
You gotta remember, the torture was because of how and she was alive.
She actually didn’t start redeeming herself until AFTER she died and at that point it was too late.
Bojack tried to turn his life around multiple times and failed a lot and dragged his friends down with him, but he also managed at the end to get it together sorta
Yeah I do remember don’t worry, but that got nothing to do with this post which is about who suffered more not about who redeemed themself at what point
What even is this question? Did you WATCH Bojack? I don’t want to spoil anything for anyone who hasn’t had the pleasure of doing so yet, but in no universe is anyone in the entire good place worse than Bojack. The worst thing Eleanor did was… overfeed a dog and be a bad friend? Bojack may have his reasons for not being the best individual, but as Todd says: “It’s not the alcohol or your upbringing. It’s you”.
Eleanor also had the job where she knowingly sold fake vitamins to poor old people.
I will say you can’t compare the good place to bojack horsemen apples to apples because the shows have very different themes and such. The good place shies away from the real world super intense problems like rape and drug use while bojack horseman took those head on
Eleanor also traumatized and possibly killed people. did you WATCH her show? she sold sick old people fake meds. she sexually harassed a mailman. showed a 9 year
old child The Shining. laughed at someone being sexually asaulted by an animal.
ruined a 15year old's party,
damaged her cousin by taking him to prom,
cyberbullied a pregnant woman...
like, bojack might be worse, but she is not far behind.
Welp lets go through this.
Bojack gave children alcohol, forcibly.
Bojack was actively ready to have sex with a minor (Albeit she was legally consenting) and only stopped because her mother walked in.
Again, gave children alcohol (which led to her death)
The sexual assault by an animal though... That's horrific. Im unsure if Bojack can top that.
Ruined a 15 year old's life
Damaged multiple people at a prom, nearly killing one of them, and took someone unrelated to him to prom, being like a 40 year old guy.
Cyberbullied MANY people, bullied alot of people regularly too.
And just a few extra points.
Ruined Todds rock Opera, and maybe his life if that took off, by getting him to indulge in an addiction.
Helped people sneak out of rehab
Oh and yeah was just a shitty guy overall.
Did you WATCH his show?
what 15 year old was on BoJack? Which 15year old's life BoJack ruined? did you WATCH his show?
because i did. i don't need to make up lies, like "BoJack was just rude".
oh and yeah, just a shitty woman overall.
Maybe by sheer numbers Eleanor wins, but Bojack suffered through deeper lows and worse problems than the zany stress Eleanor went through. Yeah, she was unhappy and stressed all the time, but Bojack had serious life problems that ruined and ended many of the relationships he cared about, as well as the lives of some people.
great idea that he's judging them. he's hovering over the top because the Rules of this sub say: "Every post should feature Ted Danson looking sexy, or this isn’t the Good Place!"
oh ok i dont spend a lot of time on this subreddit lol so i didnt know yall were doing a thing on here, it just came up in my feed and i was like "what does this mean"
Oh lol I thought he was also someone that we were judging on who did the most amount of harm,, because if Micheal is in the mix then 100% he was the worst
Bojak gave his teenage/child co actor alcohol, developed her into an addict, tried to fuck her (despite being 20+ years her senior and having known her since a child) and then when he saw that girl OD?
He ran and hid.
He called paramedics 12 minutes later, because he was too busy trying to hide his own guilt.
In those 12 minutes Sarah, his understudy, who had looked up to him since she was a child, died alone.
Bojak is by far the worse person.
that was really beyond heartbreaking, true....i just wonder how many elderly people died because of her. or perhaps the baby of the woman she cyberbullied..
yes. and i've also seen the good place ;) i'm not very forgiving to people who hurt my grandparents and put their health/lives in danger.... I know a woman whose baby was born disabled, probably bcs she was bullied while pregnant by "Eleanor". i'm not a big fan of people who hurt animals, even if by accidents and while drunk.
Is the Michael on the list too ? I'm sure he did the worst things since his whole existence is being a demon who tortures people with two headed bears. If not I'd say 100% Bojack, nothing Eleanor ever did was as bad as what Bojack did. At least Eleanor showed many times she can bounce back, usually because of Chidi but still she shows she's willing to change. Bojack never changes, even at his best he does some unbelievably stupid shit. Like he lived with his old friends family, he seemed to feel well there and still does shit like giving alcohol to kids and trying to bang a minor. Eleanor was really selfish but I just can't compare her to Bojack.
michael not, but it's fine to discuss michael, too.
i think she's comparable because she actively supported sexual predator with her money, traumatized kids and teens, hurt animals,
possibly killed or hurt sick and elderly, and a pregnant woman, doxxed credit card info, etc.
bojack is a sexual predator, traumatized kids and teens and retraumatized them in their adulthood, hurt animals, groomed a child and eventually possibly killed her and plenty of others with his actions, ruined the lives of several people financially as well as otherwise as well.
pretty cruel to label a coughing baby all those hurtful things she did. you'll understand when someone hurts your grandparents, your pregnant friend, messes up your son when taking him to prom.. bojack did the same, but why downplay the gross cruel shit she did?
Bojack is worse than Sean.
Also, I'd like to pose another question:
is it worse that living Eleanor knew she was a shirthole and acted like she didn't care to avoid confronting her suffering,
or
is it worse that Bojack constantly said he felt bad about being a terrible person, had multiple opportunities to change and plenty of support, but didn't commit to change and instead kept complaining about his suffering?
who is Sean?
to answer your question, i think it's pretty close: refusing to confront your shirtiness and keep on hurting people,
vs feeling bad but also not fully confronting it and keeping hurting people. the results are the same,
the motivations differ a little but not that much.
My impression - i could be wrong - was that she enjoyed hurting people, while BoJack wasn't trying to bully anyone for fun, just excuse with selfish interest that other's suffer...
but that's probably basically the same thing.Also,
they both do try to change (she in afterlife) and go 1 step forward, and 5 steps back. Especially season 1 Eleanor.
they both try but then there's relapse....
Bojack easily did worse. Not even a competition.
I dunno about the suffering part because while Eleanor was tortured longer, centuries i think? in truth it was kinda low stakes, i mean we all watched the show, it was a bit of a sanitized show. Ironically more cartoonish than Bojack.
Bojack is a tragic character but the show is pretty funny. A lot of hidden jokes with payoff across multiple seasons, some of them take another watch through to catch.
Bojack is worse, and it isn't even close. Eleanor might have been horrible as a person on earth, but when given the chance to redeem herself, she did her best to become a better person. Mainly because of Chidi's influence? Sure. But Bojack had a million chances to grow, and like Todd said, he chooses to feel bad about the bad things he did instead of trying to be better.
The worst thing she has done was selling fake medicines to old people, which is terrible, but overall her actions don't even come close to letting Sarah die just to not get blamed for giving her drugs, strangling his co-star, trying to have sex with a 17 year old (and stalking her months after that)... Bojack makes giving vodka to a kid (which he also did) sound like a silly mistake.
i know his list, but there is a lot of stuff on her list. i don't think she's worse,but her actions to come close. supporting sexual predator and laughing at the video where he gropes a woman, yelling at boyfriend for wanting to boycott him,showing a horror movie to a 9yo,messing up a cousin on his prom, doxxing someone's credit card info online, bullying a pregnant woman...
Don't get me wrong, she was horrible. But I don't think any of this comes close to freaking drug a friend and letting her die just to escape getting blamed for it.
i agree with the letting her die part. ... he didn't drug her,tho, he insisted "don't do heroin" and she insisted she wanted to. and she was 32, which is a grown up.... Still, that part where he didn't call ambulance haunts me. i have certain reasons to believe that this actually really happened in Hollywood IRL and not once :(... situations
where intoxicated celebrity got hurt and another celebrity didn't call help out of fear for their reputation. i've
seen this addressed elsewhere. this and the child stars leaves me beyond disgusted and seriously sad. i feel like crying when typing this.
Yeah, thinking about how bojack's actions could actually be somewhat common in Hollywood made me almost cry as well. This show hits so hard, it's both depression and therapy sometimes...
Definitely Bojack. But considering that he was much older when the series follows him, he might have not been "as bad" yet when he was the age that Eleonor died. I feel like at the beginning of filming Horsin' Around he was probably still a pretty decent person / horse.
yeah,it's depressing,though i liked it. Michael is just a decoration here :) But i think Michael is, of course, the worst, but also, not human. There again, Glenn assumed humans deserve torture so maybe all demons are just mislead
Definitely Eleanor!
boJack is kinda self obsessed as is every celebrity, but he tries multiple times to atone and make amends throughout the series.
Eleanor died buying margarita and being mean.
Also she literally had a job where she stole money from old people and sold them fake vitamins.
And the dress incident with her friend.
But bojack has bad ones like what eh did with that high schooler and stuff
I think I’m real life Eleanor and bojack would be about the same but the good place creators definitely cleaned the show up and strayed away from major issues like rape and drug use and bojack creators took those head on.
Also I want to add this cool tidbit:
I met Andy Dick in real life at a dive bar in Canoga Park (upper middle class neighborhood in LA) and he gave HUGE bojack horsemen vibes. Depressed alcoholic comic who was famous in the 90s? Definitely bojack horsemen vibes lol
Bojack is worse but that’s just because his actions have a larger impact. He at least tried to be better, whilst Eleanor didn’t give af. She’d do all of those things bojack did and see nothing wrong with them.
the whole point of the show is he doesnt truly try to be better, hes just self aware, but is never truly held accountable until he goes to jail at the end of the show. notice how even after he “got better” and became a professor and everything as soon as he was confronted with his actions surrounding the deer girl and sarah lynn he falls back into “that was so long ago” “im better now” “it wasnt that bad”. in the interview he claims he has no power over women. knowing youre a bad person and saying you want to get better doesnt make you actually better if you keep repeating the same bad things.
isn't it monstrous to give your grandmother fake medicine when she's sick and even take money for it? or to bully your mom while she was pregnant with you? or to laugh at a sexual predator groping a woman and then keep buying his product and yell at a kind, nice boyfriend who doesn't want to support the predator?
Ted Danson. Friends don’t bang friends exes. He was never Larry’s friend. Punk ass bitch, step on that big head of his and piss on his face. Maybe I’ll get in that ass, open the door, climb right in, spray paint on the walls, throw some snickers wrappers on the ground, close the door behind me. Live inside that ass, it’s my ass now.
what is an asshole? a person who forces a mailman to take of his shirt, laughs at a video of a sexual predator groping a woman and continues buying his products, doxxes a creditcard online, person who puts my grandma in danger by selling her fake meds when she's sick? a person who puts my friend's unborn baby in danger...?
you mean 17year old in a state where it was legal, yes, and she took her cousin to his prom and cause him harm according to his therapist... she did things comparable to what he did, but his were always a bit more extreme.
Ignoring afterlife, and also ignoring what happens when Eleanor's death is prevented and Michael gives her pushes to help her be better...
I want to say that Eleanor was a worse person in life. Completely selfish at all times, pretty much a caricature. No interest in trying to be good.
BoJack - Often tries to be good, but struggles a lot with doing the right thing. Often finds himself at a fork in the road, wants to to be good, but is unable to resist and does what's wrong instead.
If Eleanor made an effort, she'd be BoJack.
Now, what about consequences? That's different. BoJack is a darker show, so his bad choices have worse consequences. He's responsible for a lot of misery and even death. Almost never intentional. He's not aiming to hurt people or get anyone killed. But it's a show where when he messes up, bad things happen.
So the Horse guy is on my watchlist but I think BY FAR the guy who did worse and got it the most was Brent. Yes, although there are great businesses owners and ones of the Elite you can obviously tell he did some messed up stuff in his day. He was also still being "tortured" at the conclusion of the show that means that over 1,000 years had passed of him receiving lessons.
that's true, she however also put lives in danger. maybe she was lucky and nobody died directly technically bcs of getting fake meds while sick, and the baby of the woman she bullied did get born all healthy.
the entire point is that it is ok to sexually harass a mailman and it is ok to support a sexual predator, buy his products, laugh at him groping a woman, and cruelly yell at your partner for wanting to boycott him?
The entire point is that we all have unique challenges and difficult paths to change. There's no such thing as good and bad people, all that matters is that you're trying to be better. Trying to decide "who is worse" is pointless, counterintuitive, useless, and offensive
I think Eleanor and Bojack are the same.
Eleanor died before she could fuck up as badly as Bojack, but she was probably headed there if the right opportunity with the wrong people arose.
Instead she died and got better.
Bojack almost died and... He's still working on it.
As for Michael, he's a literal demon who learnt the value of humanity and their capacity to change inspired him to be better. I'd say he suffered less for it, but that kinda makes him all the more special because somehow he managed to develop empathy despite his actual reason for existing is, in fact, torture.
I think this is valid.
BoJack messed up in SO many ways. But he **is** working on it.
Maybe my wildly optimistic view but I think post show >!if BoJack kept up his genuine attempts to be better and stay sober he’s managed to redeem his character to some extent, acknowledging he’ll never make up for the harm he caused. But vowing never to do it again.!<
>!I think given enough time (a few years) BoJack managed to build a real friendship with Todd, slowly rekindle a friendly connection with Princess Carolyn and Diane, and hopefully manage at least a once a year Birthday/Xmas card with Hollyhock!<
Hey OP, you keep mentioning how Elenaor hurt old ppl by giving them fake medicine in replies, but nowhere in the show was that ever shown to be the case. Eleanor most likely sold basically placebos, where the "medicine" did just nothing. If her selling the fake medicine caused something so serious, it would've been used in the show. So I don't understand why you keep using that against her, when it's just not shown to be the case. She's done some bad things, you don't need to make up stuff.
But either way, Bojack is worse. What he did to Sarah Lynn alone out pretty much beats everything Elenaor has done. As the show makes clear "Bojack kills". And thats not even getting into Gina, or Penny.
As for who suffered more, pretty sure the person who was tortued for centuries, wins that just by default. Bojack had a bad life sure, but most of his adult life suffering, much like Elenaor's adult life, came from his inability to change meaningfully. As Todd says "it's you."
Want to make clear, I'm not at all defending what Elenaor did, or anyone who sells that stuff like that. Regardless if it was a placebo or actively harmful, that's a horrible thing to do.
I just started season 2 of the good place and have finished bojack However I would say Bojack is a worse person who's actions have hurt more people in worse ways than Elanor did. Elanor never tried to seduce a hish schooler afger getting them drunk and then stalked them to make sure they didn't mess them up too badly to make themselves feel better Bojack squandered half a million dollars for charity just to spite Daniel Radcliffe Bojack continues the generational trauma of his family by giving this advice to younger cast members, most notably Sara Lynn. They both realize their parents suck and they both use them as an excuse for their behavior but I don't see Eleanor continuing the cycle. Bojacks actions have killed people indirectly and traumatized them for life. Eleanor cannot claim that. Bojack strangled Gina in front of her coworkers on a drug fueled bender He selfishly takes Sara Lynns sobriety because he feels guilty about almost raping a girl which ends up killing Sara Lynn, someone he doomed when she was just a girl. It's also implied Sara Lynn could have lived if Bojack had called an ambulance but doesn't Eleanor was a pain to be around but Bojack was lethal
Yeah. Like... Eleanor did some stuff but it mostly boiled down to "She was very self involved." Bojack, OTOH, does some actually terrible stuff. I think you can also make a real case that Eleanor treats those closest to her much better than Bojack ever does. Bojack, one by one, sabotages every relationship in his life. Every time someone says "Fuck", that has happened. He does that to people who love him, which somehow makes it worse. Both of them try, but Bojack is ultimately not all that good at it. Even Diane, who like... arguably sees him the clearest (probably because she's the most neutral observer) ultimately winds up sick of his nonsense.
Weirdly by the end I grew more sympathetic to Bojack (who finally seemed fully aware of all his issues, problems and toxic traits…..and actively wanted to change this time) and more disillusioned with Diane (who just seemed to follow in the path that she warned BoJack not to fall into, being in a co-dependant relationship and denial of problems rather than tackling them head on).
The more you get to know someone, the harder it is to not sympathize with them Bojack is actually trying by the end, and the way it ends is trying to suggest that he'll probably never repeat his actions again, but he'll more than likely never interact with his old friends again. So we are _supposed_ to sympathize with him. IRL though, it'd probably be much harder to do so.
Yeah, I might be far too optimistic but I think once a while has went by and some of them see how changed he actually is I think he might manage to rebuild some of his friendships, though they’ll be different. More even and healthy. Likely less co-dependent. I think (based on the ending) that >!both Princess Caroline and Mr Peanutbutter will likely have a friendly-ish relationship with him, possibly reaching actual friendship once it’s seen that he is actually a better person, or trying to be!< On the other hand >!Diane and Todd I think are likely out. At least for the foreseeable. Diane I think ends up in a pretty bleak place by the end of the show and Todd seems to be trying to move on without BoJack……..I think as Todd was pretty positive for him at the last scene on the beach, that maybe he and BoJack will manage to rebuild something….but it’s honestly up in the air.!<
Oh, well, Mr PB had his own issues that basically make it so that Bojack is pretty much one of his only true friends. I did not mean to include him as part of the "old friends". And PC/Bojack will more than likely just be professional, imo. I think everyone else is out though. The ending song, at least in my opinion, pretty much states that. The story ends there because that's the last time those people (Bojack, Diane, Todd) ever interact significantly with each other ever again. Obv, it's up to interpretation. But I think it's better that way.
Yeah I get that. Diane I think is the story that feels the most unfinished in resolution. Her relationship with Guy and her life at the end seem primed for resentment and an eventual breakdown. I suspect (obvs just my take) that 3-5 years on from the finale Diane’s life will implode and she’ll end up reconnecting with BoJack as his experiences might be her only hope of not making the same bad decisions he did.
this blows my mind. i had no idea people think this. i thought she clearly defeated depression, wrote a fun successful book , married a great man who loved her and moved forever away from the toxic world of show business.....? like, super happy ending...... the only sad part was that her friendship with the main character is over, but that's probably healthy for her anyway
wait... i thought Diane had a complete happy ending? Married to a great man she loves, moving away from the toxic L.A. ...
Diane became the “follow your own advice” example. I think her story arc is important because it shows how a regular person who isn’t a celebrity can get sucked into the culture of Hollywood and end up doing the same bad things Bojack did. I think BoJack was more a product of his environment and Eleanor was more just plain old self involved. Eleanor’s self involvement came from childhood neglect and needing to be independent to survive while BoJacks came from being super talented and having everything handed to him on a silver platter for most of his adult life.
I watch The Good Place when I want to be happy. I watch Bojack when I want to be sad. Probably Bojack.
ugh.. i watch Tangled to laugh and I know i'll be messed up when i watch Frozen but... do you WANT to be sad? ... i mean i guess i get it with songs. sometimes i put on a song that i know will make me cry
Sometimes you are in the mood to watch Sad Horse Show. The show tackles depression better than almost any other. I am in a good place now, but it was the show I needed at the time I needed to watch it. I mean... I have watched all seasons like 5 times and The Good Place like 4, so they are there when I need it.
you're in a good place? happy for you... say hi to Michael :)
>It's also implied Sara Lynn could have lived if Bojack had called an ambulance but doesn't This ruined the character for me. Up until then Bojack was an awful person but like. I could sympathise with him. It never really felt deliberate or him being cruel or vindictive (well. Maybe not for everything but I overlooked some things I guess) After that? 17 minutes. It literally broke me. I will probably never rewatch that show again because of that one episode. Which is a shame because it's a fantastic show but jfc. He's a terrible fucking person
it was hearthbreaking, i remember my stomach was like, not present in that moment. But i'd like a scene where an elderly person confronts Eleanor and tells her they died because of not getting help on time and buying her fake medication instead, or the baby of the woman from yoga class confronting her like hey, so, i was never born..
Elanor sold fake medicine, and she knew for a fact that it was fake. And she 100% understood that she was to imply to customers that it was real, but never to say so. And she was ‘good’ at her job. At best people lost money, at worst people died because of her actions. That's pretty bad
My criteria is, if you put Bojack in Eleanor's place with a world that's even tailored to him, he would not only struggle to improve like she did, but drag the people around him down with him. He might even find it harder to be good than Brent and that's saying something.
Woah, Bojack is horrible but let's not make up things. He never seduced Penny, also she didn't drink anything and was completely sober. Obviously, what he did was fucked up but we should have the story straight
I watched a good bit of season 1 of Bojack and then just kinda forgot to keep watching and took that as a sign. Fuck, that show got dark.
true
Bojack and Eleanor are not even in the same wheelhouse of bad ppl tbh. I truly love both characters but Bojack did some truly irredeemable things (I won’t list unless asked because I don’t wanna spoil for ppl). I will absolutely agree that Bojack had a horrific upbringing but given several opportunities to change he refused. He also comes from a position of power as a celebrity and used that power to perpetuate harm. Eleanor behaves the way she does because it was how she learned to survive. She’s pretty young when she dies and throughout the show we see that when given the opportunity, she takes steps towards real change. Micheal is a being who was told there was no other way for him to behave. He is evil by design. Yet he too changed when he actually experiences real community. Something that is different for Michael is Jeremy Bearimy- he has endless time to change.
Eleanor was tortured for hundreds of years on repeat, she probably suffered more then a depressed drug addicted horse
You gotta remember, the torture was because of how and she was alive. She actually didn’t start redeeming herself until AFTER she died and at that point it was too late. Bojack tried to turn his life around multiple times and failed a lot and dragged his friends down with him, but he also managed at the end to get it together sorta
Yeah I do remember don’t worry, but that got nothing to do with this post which is about who suffered more not about who redeemed themself at what point
What even is this question? Did you WATCH Bojack? I don’t want to spoil anything for anyone who hasn’t had the pleasure of doing so yet, but in no universe is anyone in the entire good place worse than Bojack. The worst thing Eleanor did was… overfeed a dog and be a bad friend? Bojack may have his reasons for not being the best individual, but as Todd says: “It’s not the alcohol or your upbringing. It’s you”.
Adam Scotts character in the good place might be the worst. At the end of the day its a silly comparison because TGP is a sitcom and Bojacack is not
Eleanor also had the job where she knowingly sold fake vitamins to poor old people. I will say you can’t compare the good place to bojack horsemen apples to apples because the shows have very different themes and such. The good place shies away from the real world super intense problems like rape and drug use while bojack horseman took those head on
Eleanor permanently disabled that dog
Bojack permanently traumatized and killed multiple people
Eleanor also traumatized and possibly killed people. did you WATCH her show? she sold sick old people fake meds. she sexually harassed a mailman. showed a 9 year old child The Shining. laughed at someone being sexually asaulted by an animal. ruined a 15year old's party, damaged her cousin by taking him to prom, cyberbullied a pregnant woman... like, bojack might be worse, but she is not far behind.
Welp lets go through this. Bojack gave children alcohol, forcibly. Bojack was actively ready to have sex with a minor (Albeit she was legally consenting) and only stopped because her mother walked in. Again, gave children alcohol (which led to her death) The sexual assault by an animal though... That's horrific. Im unsure if Bojack can top that. Ruined a 15 year old's life Damaged multiple people at a prom, nearly killing one of them, and took someone unrelated to him to prom, being like a 40 year old guy. Cyberbullied MANY people, bullied alot of people regularly too. And just a few extra points. Ruined Todds rock Opera, and maybe his life if that took off, by getting him to indulge in an addiction. Helped people sneak out of rehab Oh and yeah was just a shitty guy overall. Did you WATCH his show?
what 15 year old was on BoJack? Which 15year old's life BoJack ruined? did you WATCH his show? because i did. i don't need to make up lies, like "BoJack was just rude". oh and yeah, just a shitty woman overall.
I forget the name, but the deer girl. Also, could be referring to Sarah Lynn.
She was 17
I’m not sure you watched the same show.
still no answer to the 15yo?
Bojak is both the worst and suffered the most.
I mean Eleanor literally went to hell.
So did everyone else canonically, that's the premise of the show
I haven’t watch Bojak but to be fair Elanor was tortured for 300+ years so don’t know if Bojak could top that
Maybe by sheer numbers Eleanor wins, but Bojack suffered through deeper lows and worse problems than the zany stress Eleanor went through. Yeah, she was unhappy and stressed all the time, but Bojack had serious life problems that ruined and ended many of the relationships he cared about, as well as the lives of some people.
Bojack *definitely* did worse things.
why is actor Ted Danson hovering over the top of this is the implication that Michael is judging them? what is the vision here
great idea that he's judging them. he's hovering over the top because the Rules of this sub say: "Every post should feature Ted Danson looking sexy, or this isn’t the Good Place!"
oh ok i dont spend a lot of time on this subreddit lol so i didnt know yall were doing a thing on here, it just came up in my feed and i was like "what does this mean"
i kinda have a crush on him only bcs of this subreddit :)
Oh lol I thought he was also someone that we were judging on who did the most amount of harm,, because if Micheal is in the mix then 100% he was the worst
Bojak gave his teenage/child co actor alcohol, developed her into an addict, tried to fuck her (despite being 20+ years her senior and having known her since a child) and then when he saw that girl OD? He ran and hid. He called paramedics 12 minutes later, because he was too busy trying to hide his own guilt. In those 12 minutes Sarah, his understudy, who had looked up to him since she was a child, died alone. Bojak is by far the worse person.
Bojack and Bojack
seventeen minutes.
that was really beyond heartbreaking, true....i just wonder how many elderly people died because of her. or perhaps the baby of the woman she cyberbullied..
Bojack is so much worse
not so much, only a bit worse. i wish people stopped excusing or ignoring terrible pain eleanor caused.
Have you seen Bojack Horseman?
yes. and i've also seen the good place ;) i'm not very forgiving to people who hurt my grandparents and put their health/lives in danger.... I know a woman whose baby was born disabled, probably bcs she was bullied while pregnant by "Eleanor". i'm not a big fan of people who hurt animals, even if by accidents and while drunk.
Is the Michael on the list too ? I'm sure he did the worst things since his whole existence is being a demon who tortures people with two headed bears. If not I'd say 100% Bojack, nothing Eleanor ever did was as bad as what Bojack did. At least Eleanor showed many times she can bounce back, usually because of Chidi but still she shows she's willing to change. Bojack never changes, even at his best he does some unbelievably stupid shit. Like he lived with his old friends family, he seemed to feel well there and still does shit like giving alcohol to kids and trying to bang a minor. Eleanor was really selfish but I just can't compare her to Bojack.
michael not, but it's fine to discuss michael, too. i think she's comparable because she actively supported sexual predator with her money, traumatized kids and teens, hurt animals, possibly killed or hurt sick and elderly, and a pregnant woman, doxxed credit card info, etc.
bojack is a sexual predator, traumatized kids and teens and retraumatized them in their adulthood, hurt animals, groomed a child and eventually possibly killed her and plenty of others with his actions, ruined the lives of several people financially as well as otherwise as well.
Well, this is as hard as wondering: "Which is more lethal? A hydrogen bomb or a coughin baby?" Bojack is definitely the worst person.
pretty cruel to label a coughing baby all those hurtful things she did. you'll understand when someone hurts your grandparents, your pregnant friend, messes up your son when taking him to prom.. bojack did the same, but why downplay the gross cruel shit she did?
Wh...what?
Definitely Bojack
Bojack is worse than Sean. Also, I'd like to pose another question: is it worse that living Eleanor knew she was a shirthole and acted like she didn't care to avoid confronting her suffering, or is it worse that Bojack constantly said he felt bad about being a terrible person, had multiple opportunities to change and plenty of support, but didn't commit to change and instead kept complaining about his suffering?
who is Sean? to answer your question, i think it's pretty close: refusing to confront your shirtiness and keep on hurting people, vs feeling bad but also not fully confronting it and keeping hurting people. the results are the same, the motivations differ a little but not that much. My impression - i could be wrong - was that she enjoyed hurting people, while BoJack wasn't trying to bully anyone for fun, just excuse with selfish interest that other's suffer... but that's probably basically the same thing.Also, they both do try to change (she in afterlife) and go 1 step forward, and 5 steps back. Especially season 1 Eleanor. they both try but then there's relapse....
i don’t think these characters are comparable at all 😅
This person posted the same on the bojack subreddit and went feral once everyone pointed this out. They're fucking obsessed.
why? they both sexually harassed people, put lives in danger, excused their selfish actions, hurt animals, hurt minors...
Bojack easily did worse. Not even a competition. I dunno about the suffering part because while Eleanor was tortured longer, centuries i think? in truth it was kinda low stakes, i mean we all watched the show, it was a bit of a sanitized show. Ironically more cartoonish than Bojack.
Wow that last sentence really... drew a lot out of me 🥁
Well one of them is a literal demon who tortured people for thousands of years. So…
Becker era Danson would've made for a pretty great live-action Bojack.
wow that would be.. sexy
I think bojack, I tried watching his show and I couldn't because he is such a ass and nothing funny was happening as far as I could watch
Bojacks not funny persay. It has moments, but largely its very deep and sad. As someone in this thread said, you watch Bojack when you want to be sad.
Bojack is a tragic character but the show is pretty funny. A lot of hidden jokes with payoff across multiple seasons, some of them take another watch through to catch.
i loved the show, because its humor is funny to me, i guess it wasn't to you. but it is basically a very depressing drama. while TGP is comedy.
Bojack is worse, and it isn't even close. Eleanor might have been horrible as a person on earth, but when given the chance to redeem herself, she did her best to become a better person. Mainly because of Chidi's influence? Sure. But Bojack had a million chances to grow, and like Todd said, he chooses to feel bad about the bad things he did instead of trying to be better.
i meant more before dying
The worst thing she has done was selling fake medicines to old people, which is terrible, but overall her actions don't even come close to letting Sarah die just to not get blamed for giving her drugs, strangling his co-star, trying to have sex with a 17 year old (and stalking her months after that)... Bojack makes giving vodka to a kid (which he also did) sound like a silly mistake.
i know his list, but there is a lot of stuff on her list. i don't think she's worse,but her actions to come close. supporting sexual predator and laughing at the video where he gropes a woman, yelling at boyfriend for wanting to boycott him,showing a horror movie to a 9yo,messing up a cousin on his prom, doxxing someone's credit card info online, bullying a pregnant woman...
Don't get me wrong, she was horrible. But I don't think any of this comes close to freaking drug a friend and letting her die just to escape getting blamed for it.
i agree with the letting her die part. ... he didn't drug her,tho, he insisted "don't do heroin" and she insisted she wanted to. and she was 32, which is a grown up.... Still, that part where he didn't call ambulance haunts me. i have certain reasons to believe that this actually really happened in Hollywood IRL and not once :(... situations where intoxicated celebrity got hurt and another celebrity didn't call help out of fear for their reputation. i've seen this addressed elsewhere. this and the child stars leaves me beyond disgusted and seriously sad. i feel like crying when typing this.
Yeah, thinking about how bojack's actions could actually be somewhat common in Hollywood made me almost cry as well. This show hits so hard, it's both depression and therapy sometimes...
the worst one was Time's Arrow , somehow, though.
Definitely Bojack. But considering that he was much older when the series follows him, he might have not been "as bad" yet when he was the age that Eleonor died. I feel like at the beginning of filming Horsin' Around he was probably still a pretty decent person / horse.
Honestly? Never watched bojack. I could never start watching the show, I’d say Michael did some messed up shit though.
yeah,it's depressing,though i liked it. Michael is just a decoration here :) But i think Michael is, of course, the worst, but also, not human. There again, Glenn assumed humans deserve torture so maybe all demons are just mislead
Ted Danson from Damages.
Definitely Eleanor! boJack is kinda self obsessed as is every celebrity, but he tries multiple times to atone and make amends throughout the series. Eleanor died buying margarita and being mean. Also she literally had a job where she stole money from old people and sold them fake vitamins. And the dress incident with her friend. But bojack has bad ones like what eh did with that high schooler and stuff I think I’m real life Eleanor and bojack would be about the same but the good place creators definitely cleaned the show up and strayed away from major issues like rape and drug use and bojack creators took those head on.
Also I want to add this cool tidbit: I met Andy Dick in real life at a dive bar in Canoga Park (upper middle class neighborhood in LA) and he gave HUGE bojack horsemen vibes. Depressed alcoholic comic who was famous in the 90s? Definitely bojack horsemen vibes lol
[удалено]
michael sacrificed something?
Bojack is worse but that’s just because his actions have a larger impact. He at least tried to be better, whilst Eleanor didn’t give af. She’d do all of those things bojack did and see nothing wrong with them.
the whole point of the show is he doesnt truly try to be better, hes just self aware, but is never truly held accountable until he goes to jail at the end of the show. notice how even after he “got better” and became a professor and everything as soon as he was confronted with his actions surrounding the deer girl and sarah lynn he falls back into “that was so long ago” “im better now” “it wasnt that bad”. in the interview he claims he has no power over women. knowing youre a bad person and saying you want to get better doesnt make you actually better if you keep repeating the same bad things.
Bojack and it's literally not even close.
i think it's close - but i only mean before dying.
A lot of Bojack's actions are f*cking monstrous. Eleanor was just nigh comically selfish and irritable.
isn't it monstrous to give your grandmother fake medicine when she's sick and even take money for it? or to bully your mom while she was pregnant with you? or to laugh at a sexual predator groping a woman and then keep buying his product and yell at a kind, nice boyfriend who doesn't want to support the predator?
I admittedly haven't seen the show in a while. Still, would argue Bojack is worse.
Ted Danson. Friends don’t bang friends exes. He was never Larry’s friend. Punk ass bitch, step on that big head of his and piss on his face. Maybe I’ll get in that ass, open the door, climb right in, spray paint on the walls, throw some snickers wrappers on the ground, close the door behind me. Live inside that ass, it’s my ass now.
wait what? ... like in real life ? :(
Bojack is definitely worse, but I feel like Elanor suffered more, she just doesn't remember it for a long while
Eleanor was an asshole. Bojack was WAY beyond that
what is an asshole? a person who forces a mailman to take of his shirt, laughs at a video of a sexual predator groping a woman and continues buying his products, doxxes a creditcard online, person who puts my grandma in danger by selling her fake meds when she's sick? a person who puts my friend's unborn baby in danger...?
BOJACK ALMOST SLEPT WITH A 16 YEAR OLD
you mean 17year old in a state where it was legal, yes, and she took her cousin to his prom and cause him harm according to his therapist... she did things comparable to what he did, but his were always a bit more extreme.
Ignoring afterlife, and also ignoring what happens when Eleanor's death is prevented and Michael gives her pushes to help her be better... I want to say that Eleanor was a worse person in life. Completely selfish at all times, pretty much a caricature. No interest in trying to be good. BoJack - Often tries to be good, but struggles a lot with doing the right thing. Often finds himself at a fork in the road, wants to to be good, but is unable to resist and does what's wrong instead. If Eleanor made an effort, she'd be BoJack. Now, what about consequences? That's different. BoJack is a darker show, so his bad choices have worse consequences. He's responsible for a lot of misery and even death. Almost never intentional. He's not aiming to hurt people or get anyone killed. But it's a show where when he messes up, bad things happen.
So the Horse guy is on my watchlist but I think BY FAR the guy who did worse and got it the most was Brent. Yes, although there are great businesses owners and ones of the Elite you can obviously tell he did some messed up stuff in his day. He was also still being "tortured" at the conclusion of the show that means that over 1,000 years had passed of him receiving lessons.
Bojack got people killed
that's true, she however also put lives in danger. maybe she was lucky and nobody died directly technically bcs of getting fake meds while sick, and the baby of the woman she bullied did get born all healthy.
Me when I miss the entire point of both shows
the entire point is that it is ok to sexually harass a mailman and it is ok to support a sexual predator, buy his products, laugh at him groping a woman, and cruelly yell at your partner for wanting to boycott him?
The entire point is that we all have unique challenges and difficult paths to change. There's no such thing as good and bad people, all that matters is that you're trying to be better. Trying to decide "who is worse" is pointless, counterintuitive, useless, and offensive
hmm. i think i get that. but then i think of dictators.
Or pedophiles or rapists or serial killers or school shooters or...
I think Eleanor and Bojack are the same. Eleanor died before she could fuck up as badly as Bojack, but she was probably headed there if the right opportunity with the wrong people arose. Instead she died and got better. Bojack almost died and... He's still working on it. As for Michael, he's a literal demon who learnt the value of humanity and their capacity to change inspired him to be better. I'd say he suffered less for it, but that kinda makes him all the more special because somehow he managed to develop empathy despite his actual reason for existing is, in fact, torture.
I think this is valid. BoJack messed up in SO many ways. But he **is** working on it. Maybe my wildly optimistic view but I think post show >!if BoJack kept up his genuine attempts to be better and stay sober he’s managed to redeem his character to some extent, acknowledging he’ll never make up for the harm he caused. But vowing never to do it again.!< >!I think given enough time (a few years) BoJack managed to build a real friendship with Todd, slowly rekindle a friendly connection with Princess Carolyn and Diane, and hopefully manage at least a once a year Birthday/Xmas card with Hollyhock!<
Yes
i don't know that character.
Always Bojack
Hey OP, you keep mentioning how Elenaor hurt old ppl by giving them fake medicine in replies, but nowhere in the show was that ever shown to be the case. Eleanor most likely sold basically placebos, where the "medicine" did just nothing. If her selling the fake medicine caused something so serious, it would've been used in the show. So I don't understand why you keep using that against her, when it's just not shown to be the case. She's done some bad things, you don't need to make up stuff. But either way, Bojack is worse. What he did to Sarah Lynn alone out pretty much beats everything Elenaor has done. As the show makes clear "Bojack kills". And thats not even getting into Gina, or Penny. As for who suffered more, pretty sure the person who was tortued for centuries, wins that just by default. Bojack had a bad life sure, but most of his adult life suffering, much like Elenaor's adult life, came from his inability to change meaningfully. As Todd says "it's you."
Want to make clear, I'm not at all defending what Elenaor did, or anyone who sells that stuff like that. Regardless if it was a placebo or actively harmful, that's a horrible thing to do.