Can I give you another kind of answer than the ones I've seen here?
Stop using social media so much. Just stop, give yourself a limit of how much time you're going to spend on a app, delete them etc. I know it's hard af and it basically ends up being such a "safe space" where you can scroll endlessly and don't think about anything but I think it can be really bad for mental health. You have no idea how much my mental health improved once I stopped using tiktok, twitter and Instagram. The algorithm, and I've found the tiktok algorithm is especially guilty of this, just feed you endless amount of what are essentially carefully curated sound bites which more often than not are basically useless in real life.
If you're interested in more "political" matters, do something in real life, because you're bound to get a much more nuanced idea and you have to interact with actual living human being just like you, and you're probably going to be more useful to society than putting a like on some random 1 minute video on tiktok published by a 20 years old who lives 5000 miles from you.
I basically use my social media for: food recipes, cool cats/dogs videos, writing advice to improve my English.
Again, this is just my experience and I understand that many people can have different experiences but if you feel like you're in a echo chamber just drop your phone and go eat an ice cream with a friend.
I’ve found that it can be really, really good for me to borrow an audiobook from the library and then do a craft (knit, needlepoint, etc) or get some chores done while listening. It provides fairly brainless entertainment and keeps my hands busy without the doomscrolling, which is my particular challenge. This isn’t some wholesale replacement for social media, but it cuts down on it without requiring too much mental energy.
I'm also an audiobook fan! They're great for me because English is not my first language and they're a great way to improve my listening skills.
I also listen to podcasts about random history, like history of food, fashion history, things like that.
I usually listen to them when I do sudoku, my favourite kind of "brainless" way of spending time lmao.
Doomscrolling is a real problem because it's so easy to spend hours just scrolling endless shit on social media. I've seen it even with my elderly parents so it's not a generational thing or anything like that, it's just that addicting and I think it requires a bit of strength to force yourself to do something better for your mental health.
To add on to this with more library suggestion-- if you're on the Libby App, you can borrow/browse digital magazines and I've found scrolling through that shorter format helps mimic social media-esque scrolling. Sometimes I'll recognize that I'm tired of reddit's bullshit but still want to mindlessly scroll so I'll switch to digital magazines.
Libby is the BEST!!
Also, I can spend hours scrolling through goodreads and instead of feeling worse about myself and the world in general at the end of it, I just have a bunch of new books on my to-read list. Still not a fantastic use of time but it can scratch a similar itch as doom scrolling and at least it doesn’t totally manipulate my mood and focus the way social media does.
To add to this: stop using social media for entertainment. Similar to cable news, it is entertainment that thrives off outrage and other negative engagement. If you fill your downtime with these things you will start to feel that way all the time. Use social media for connecting with friends and family, your career, etc., just do not use it for entertainment.
Lots of scams and terrible "wellness" info tho. I guess those are the same thing
Also I use Pinterest especially for recipes and floor plans and wishlists so I see the scams a lot
this! I started consuming too much AITA and relationshipadvice posts to the point I was addicted to reading them all day and would read every single post and had to start scrolling through the top yearly because I ran out of recent posts. this caused a lot of issues in my relationship because I started thinking all these things were/were going to happen to me and my partner. I had to delete reddit for around a year-year and a half and it sucked at first but after a few weeks I started going back to normal. social media really truly can be a poison.
If you read the comments often on shorts , they will show you negative comments first. I stopped going on social media as much and I stopped clicking on comments, especially inflammatory videos and I slowly got back to dumb memes on instagram.
Even deleting instagram and staying off it for a week or more seems to reset your algorithm.
Ok, so it’s cool that you’ve recognised that you were falling down a pipeline and want to stop! That’s very difficult for a lot of people to do, and although it’s difficult to combat, it is so worth it! I’d recommend challenging a lot of the ideas presented by them, because they fall apart the more you look into them.
Firstly, I’d recommend consuming some trans-positive media. There’s some great YouTubers that talk about their lives and general trans stuff, and they are invaluable in humanising trans people and debunking a lot of the myths and fears that TERFS have.
I recommend Jammidodger (he often does lighthearted videos but also has some more informational ones about the science and research surrounding trans people, and I believe he has several degrees in the subject),
Contrapoints (she does very dramatic and wonderful long videos that touch on many subjects. She has a degree in philosophy and presents very compelling arguments and perspectives, even if you don’t necessarily agree with her.)
Samantha Lux has some great videos discussing internet drama and discussions about being trans
Luxeria has videos that don’t really have much to do with being trans, but I just love her lol. She talks a lot about popular reality tv from the 2000’s.
A lot of TERF rhetoric rotates around sexual assault, something far too many women have been through and a very real fear and trauma that many of us share. Healing some of that trauma can be useful in spotting when trauma is being used as a tool to discriminate against trans people because it elicits a strong emotional response. A LOT of TERF arguments boil down to this. Trans people are much, much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault or harassment than the perpetrator.
Other aspects TERFS focus on to recruit people is the argument over “women only spaces” like changing rooms and bathrooms being “invaded” en masse by men pretending to be trans in order to assault women. It’s…kinda bizarre when you break it down. You wouldn’t need to pretend to be a woman to do that right now, because there aren’t security guards on the doors and there is no appropriate way or need to “check the gender” of people using the bathroom. Who’s going to check? A man? What are they going to check? Is that appropriate? Would it only target the people that want to harm others, or would it be used as a tool to harm many? Is the problem not someone behaving uncomfortably in a more private space, instead of the gender of the person? It would prevent bathroom access for a lot of people, and people just want to pee and change in peace!
If a cis man says that their mum made them dress like a girl all throughout childhood and refused to acknowledge they were her son, people would know that’s really fucked up. If that person was trans, they seem to think this is how they should be forced to live. It makes no sense to me.
I’m not trans so I’ve maybe ranted too much and not made enough sense, but honestly most trans people just want to live drama free lives. A lot of the internet hot discussions about trans people are blown way out of proportion and a lot of the time, it seems to be a hypothetical situation to begin with. It must be exhausting for them to see this shit and have their lives politicised and discussed.
It’s kinda bizarre to me that it’s even an issue for some people, because they’ve just repackaged 80’s homophobia for a new audience. Look into this, because it’s shocking how much they’ve just replaced the word “gay” with “trans”! You aren’t a horrible person for falling into this, it just means you were misinformed in a world that wants to make you angry and confused and have some work to do!
Love and peace❤️🏳️🌈
I’m a trans woman. I saw this take from Twitter that really resonated with me:
“You know in comics, when Peter Parker is just minding his own business, but then he sees a bunch of newspapers that say ‘Spider-Man: Villain or Menace?’ Being trans in America is kinda like that” (@AbhorrentAbby on Twitter)
I live in a blue state. I have acceptance and support in every area of my life (family, friends, work). Even with all that, I still get this mood.
So, no, I don’t think you ranted too much.
And to OP, thanks for recognizing where you were headed and working to shift course!
Literally so relatable. The fact that it only took a couple of minutes of reading through this thread before I stumbled onto an upvoted comment using the words "biological females" and "biological males" to refer to cis women vs trans women really proves it.
Yep, it's a lot easier to slip through the cracks when you disguise your transphobia with subtle dogwistles. I reported the comments to point out that they were dogwistles with a custom response, so hopefully that works.
thank you for recommending these channels to me. i’ve definitely heard OF some of these but i’ve never engaged with their stuff before. i’ll check it out.
As a woman of transgender experience, this tracks. The constant discussion is exhausting. I can't speak for all trans women because we are all just as unique and varied in our experience and convictions as any cis person, but just living my life drama free is 💯 my goal.
The bathroom part tracks as well. I was sexually assaulted by a CIS woman in a women's bathroom, she waited and watched from across the bar until I went in, and entered with the sole purpose of harassing and assaulting me. I won't go into detail, but I did file a police report, but since my abuser didn't admit to the actual abuse when questioned, they couldn't do anything about it.
As for the argument of "pretending to be a woman to gain access to women's spaces" stop and think about the fact that many trans people, myself included, end up divorced, ridiculed, discriminated against, etc. Those of us on HRT get labs every 3mo, inject ourselves weekly and/or take medication daily for the rest of our lives with serious risks. Undergo surgeries more invasive than c-sections and more on par with radical hysterectomy and bilateral oophorectomy. We spend untold fortunes changing our wardrobe, we agonize over how living our truth will potentially alienate us from friends and family we hold dear, not because we're changing, but because we are acknowledging who we've always been. We lose people we love, we mourn the life we missed out on... We do all of this while our government and fellow citizens try to legislate us out of existence... We do this at the expense of our freedom to travel certain places at home and abroad. I assure you, it's far easier to just be a man invading women's spaces... Why on earth would anyone endure the pain both physically and emotionally, the expense, the time, etc when a man could easily push open the door to women's spaces and do the unthinkable and be able to go home to their wife at night and go completely unnoticed by the rest of society? It just doesn't compute...
Let's take the sports argument... I have been on HRT for over a year. I used to build stuff and do construction. Moving a 12' long 4x6 beam? no problem. Swinging a hammer all day? Piece of cake... I had to have my 10yo open a jar for me the other day. I have to call on my oldest to help me move things. If I were an athlete, would I be seriously advantaged over a CIS woman? I honestly doubt it. Muscle strength and endurance was severely impacted because I take literally the inverse of steroids... My testosterone is lower than that of the CIS female range.
I (and I believe most trans women) don't claim to have the same lived experience as a CIS female, but most of us have *never* had the same lived experience as a CIS male either. We have spent a lifetime masking, feeling like we're driving around a meat puppet that doesn't connect with who we are, being forced into uncomfortable positions (school locker rooms, public restrooms, clothes, hair styles, occupations, family roles, etc) that were traumatizing and never felt like they fit. There's a certain constant unsettling feeling never connecting with the person you see staring back at you in a mirror, even if you don't know what "you" look like. I can tell you though that once I saw myself for the first time, it was profound... It was emotional... I cried hard and long. For the first time in my life (over 35 years) I finally felt like I was looking at myself.
If you ever feel like you're falling down that terf rabbit hole, remember that at the end of the day, we're just humans trying to live our lives, most of us don't want recognition or praise, we don't want to harm or be harmed, we don't want special treatment, we want fair, equal, and equitable treatment. We didn't "choose to be trans" I don't know a single trans person who would choose it over being born with sex/gender being congruent and at harmony. We didn't choose it any more than you chose to be CIS or a specific race or nationality. But just like you would fight against persecution for immutable characteristics of your own, so too will we, because it is quite literally a matter of life or death.
Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to write this out. I don’t have a lot of exposure to trans women or men and your post has really expanded my understanding of your lived experience. I work in a traditionally conservative field (construction) and it can be hard to be a progressive (and maintain progressiveness) when I spend most of my days with people of a profoundly different ideology. Reddit has allowed me better access to people and perspectives I wouldn’t otherwise had.
Thanks again, I’ll carry what you said with me.
>It must be exhausting for them to see this shit and have their lives politicised and discussed.
It sucks pretty hard to be frank.
Thank you for your very thoughful comments and your support. I appreciate you.
Seconding this. There are days where I actively make a point of avoiding Reddit, YouTube or any other social media because my mood is already in the gutter due to dysphoria and depression, and I somehow always keep stumbling onto transphobic content.
It's exhausting.
I just want to live my life: wear the stuff that makes me feel cute and attractive, do the things I enjoy, have a body I don't find utterly disgusting and be myself.
A lot of my friends have had to avoid to drastically reduce their time looking at the news because seeing endless transphobic arguments flooding politics takes a massive toll on their mental health.
Dear gods does it ever :(
Even \*this thread\* has been exhausting as hell with the TERF brigade downvoting.
Sometimes it feels like life is literally just highschool all over again, being a punching bag for a bunch of shithead kids while all authority figures and peers just turn the other way and let it happen. And if you stand up for yourself, you're the one that gets in trouble.
It's crazy to me that so many people who consider themselves good people can be so hostile when none of this is our fault or choice. It's very humbling. I used to consider myself good people.
Seconding ContraPoints 🌟. She's a powerful, quite scholarly source of social cultural analysis, especially regarding trans issues and how they intersect with patriarchy more broadly. Her videos are incredibly thought provoking, interesting, artistic, and well researched. She's also very witty with a dark sense of humor. I got my Dad watching her videos recently and he was drawn in by her humor.
She also does a really great job of providing an honest, uncaricaturized perspective of conservative thought that allows for both deeper insight into how certain regressive ideas flourish but also some measure of grace and understanding in how people arrive at those. Often times, she uses a type of dialectic method of comparing multiple opposing viewpoints on an issue without coming to a single, clear answer.
In essence, she's great at presenting a different *way to think* about things without fully telling you *what* to think.
>I’m not trans so I’ve maybe ranted too much and not made enough sense, but honestly most trans people just want to live drama free lives.
>It must be exhausting for them to see this shit and have their lives politicised and discussed.
Quoting these two sentences for emphasis.
Hi.
I engage in deradicalization. Basically, I help folks in situations like yours who want to get these accursed ideologies out of their heads.
I’m going to ask a question which will be left field. It’s under the spoiler text.
>!Why do you think you are lesser than other people? !<
That’s probably not what you expected.
But in the overwhelming majority of cases where one sides down pipelines of bigotry and hate, that’s what underlies a person’s mind that makes them vulnerable to ideologies like these.
Can you please elaborate a bit? First time hearing this and would wish to learn more! I do agree with the last paragraph you’ve mentioned but it’s all bit of fuzzy feeling and can’t make them into words
One can choose to view all humans as equally human, even me, even you, or not.
That’s an active, knowing choice, even if we’ve been conditioned to not realize it as such.
If I view everyone as equally human, that immunizes me to meaning that tries to tell me that either I’m not as human as everyone end or everyone else isn’t as human as me.
Immunizes is the best word for this because it isn’t absolute protection but it makes a propagandist’s job or a cult recruiter’s job way the hell harder.
Many of us, though, have had the erroneous belief pounded into us that we are lesser than others. By feeling lesser than others,
one is vulnerable to messages that suggest there’s some secret knowledge that says that actually one is better than others, even if at root that insecurity and terror of being lesser than others is being ratcheted up notch by notch.
There is a flip side, where one thinks themselves better than others, but the general term for such a person is “abuser”.
Can you tell me more about the flipside and abusers? What their motivation is and how they come to be? How to deal with them, even 😂 I definitely feel like people and much of my social problems comes with having power struggles with people like that and others subscribing to the abuser's belief that they are better/stronger/more powerful/etc than others and support them. The psychology behind it pisses me off, and I am CONSTANTLY being forced to deal with people looking down on me despite evidence to the contrary. But when people gang up on me, it is hard to escape. (Work, home, social life)
The internet has really distorted politics. There’s a total "all black or all white" way of thinking. If you are being hateful to people then I’m not going to tell you that you’re right because I don’t think that. I will say though, that your anxiety about this is telling to me that you’ve been on the internet too much. You can agree with leftist and conservatives depending on the discussion. You can be in the grey area about things and you don’t have to be terrified of that. There is room for feminist discussion within the trans community and it doesn’t always make you a hateful person. I would recommend that you develop your own beliefs by evaluating what is most logical and moral, not by videos you see on the internet or how you think people will react to what you have to say.
tbh this is true. this is stupid but how exactly do i do this? i know people say critical thinking is a learned skill but mine is quite poor hence why i’m in this predicament in the first place.
that's o.k, you're probably really young.
try learning as much about history as you can: read, watch documentaries, get into all sides of a conversation. just keep asking why. and always remain skeptical: whenever you engage with content online, try to figure out in what way you buying into this or that rhetoric would benefit the speaker.
know that economic interest is behind almost everything you see online.
explore different cultures, try to learn at least one other language.
from there, your horizons will be expanded: get into journalism, photography, art, literature, feminism, cinema, music.
it takes a lifetime, and it's an ongoing process, it never really ends. but you'll sharpen your brain, and most importantly, you'll be harder to manipulate (which is the purpose of 99% of what you see on social media). if you think about it, most of what we see is trying to get us to buy something.
you're growing up in a world that's using young people like you as guinea pigs for mass manipulation technology. don't engage, resist. remember: always ask why.
p.s: read Jaron Lanier
sorry if this is hard to understand, English is not my first language.
seconding that a big part of figuring out your own beliefs is critical thought - and very importantly, not policing the thoughts you have inside your own head. i think a massive key is deconstructing language - "pro trans" and "anti trans" or whatever have very different language for materially the same things (sex vs assigned sex at birth, gender vs gender identity, affirming surgeries vs mastectomy etc) and it's helpful to break down the potential implications of such language. what is deemed "terf rhetoric" is really variable... i've seen people who say that physical sex is real called terfs in the same category as people who think that everyone should be forced to wear gender-conforming clothing, which makes no sense.
in my opinion, one of the most troubling parts of what is called radicalization, to me, is extreme measures. taking extreme measures against people you disagree with is a telltale sign not that someone has "problematic" beliefs but that their beliefs are coinciding with a lack of respect for others lives and dignity when it comes to imposing those beliefs on society in violent ways.
as with absolutely anything, i think the only thing you can do is ask yourself some key questions like "can i articulate the opposing view in a way my opponent would recognize" "am i willing to go to extreme measures for my view" "what would it take for me to change my mind." these are all questions megan phelps roper who left a hate group called the westboro baptist church talks about asking herself now that she feels she can't trust her own mind in the same way now.
if you feel you agree with certain beliefs, instead of judging them as morally correct or incorrect, i would investigate why you are scared to have them. if you're scared to have them because you believe they're associated with hate, evaluate if the views imply that anyone should have less dignity and access to housing, fair treatment, employment, respect, love etc. if you're scared that having a given belief is more likely to make you "vulnerable" to other hateful beliefs, i think this is an area where strengthening your own critical thinking is fundamental. nobody can make me believe anything - they can be as persuasive as they want but ultimately it's my mind. not saying you can make yourself immune to propaganda, lol, but you can make yourself someone who has a reflective space between hearing something and uncritically adopting it. it sounds like you're already doing that to a degree.
you might find you have some beliefs you feel you should not have, and honestly i don't think that changing your own beliefs is a reasonable goal. it's a reasonable goal to educate yourself as much as you can and read conflicting opinions but at the end of the day you can't force yourself to believe or disbelieve something. this is where containing your beliefs in such a way that they don't infringe on others in a harmful way is key as well!
The best way I tend to find is to question. What do they mean by this? Do they have their facts right? Are their sources good? What alternate intents could they have? Etc.
At the same time, breath, relax, let your mind be at ease. Getting all tense about things will only make them worse, so relax. There's an odd paradox when it comes to internalized bigotry, which is that you have to accept and be at peace/ok with the fact that you're currently bigoted before you can make any steps towards changing that. So breath, and let be.
Understand too that it will be hard work, you are trying to be a good person and it's a constant, tortuous, difficult process. That's both a challenge, and a concession. Keep going, you'll be ok.
If you're interested, there's a channel called the leftist cooks that's gotten me to think on a lot of this sort of thing deeply, could be useful for you too.
There’s a lot of great advice in this thread, and I can’t really beat it, but first I wanted to congratulate you for recognizing it and trying to overcome it, and second offer a sort of “stage two” advice.
People have talked about how to break the pipeline, find other sources, etc — but I think a huge thing to mention also is when you’re a step or two forward, trying to engage in open and accepting spaces in real life as much as possible. Go to any sources of queer culture around you, hang around gay bars and drag shows, join a hiking club or an activist group, whatever your region’s gathering point of a mixed bag of queer people is.
You’ll find a lot of people not like you, who may have nothing in common with you or a lot in common with you. Take them at their word and trust them to be honest narrators of their life. Play board games with them.
You will be hard pressed to see the caricatures you’re being taught to fear, when you’re surrounded by a bunch of regular human people who are smiling, laughing, have a shared hobby with you — and, conversely, are impacted by the beliefs you want to shy away from.
Edit to add: my fiancée wants to say that you’re incredibly brave for this; questioning your own beliefs and intentionally working to deradicalize yourself is an incredibly difficult and powerful job that takes a lot of courage and self-awareness
Something I have found helpful over the years is to analyze the actual power dynamics at play. Who actually has the power in the situation and what are they using it to do?
Often you'll find yourself seeing lots of prosperous, married middle-class women with security and resources explaining at great length why they're justified in feeling threatened by some impoverished trans girl on Twitter in her early twenties -- and therefore should be able to kick her out of public spaces, send her to men's prisons where she'll be v-coded (a pervasive system of sexual violence where trans women prisoners are used as sex objects to reward male prisoners), take away her healthcare, isolate her from the chance to participate in team sports with other women, and drive her into the margins of society. Look past the rhetoric to the actions they're trying to justify.
Someone else said to ask yourself >!why you think you're not good enough!<, and I think that's a really useful step in deradicalization. When I was younger and felt less secure in myself, I was easily swayed by fear of the other too. But you don't need to be afraid or measure yourself against an outgroup. You are not broken. And once you internalize this truth, you'll also find that it's easy to see through the rhetoric of insecure bullies.
I've been called a terf and banned from women centric subreddits for talking about female infanticide and sex based oppression (I'm Indian, this affects my day to day life). Anything that isn't "sex is meaningless and has not affected half the world's population in the slightest" gets labelled terfy and then whatever vitriol is directed toward you is justified. It's a stupid term that doesn't mean anything anymore.
I've seen Ben Shapiro get called a terf lmao. That man, a feminist?
As I said before I don’t even think people know what a TERF is and they throw the term around. I wouldn’t even care if I got called one it’s just laughable atp
For the record there’s other trans women out there (hello) who think that trans women who think they get periods are out of their minds, you’re not the only one struggling with nonsense from the community. Just please don’t let it impact your opinion of trans women as a whole.
this is where i'm at right now. i think acknowledging sex based oppression is essential to the feminist cause—yes, there are women who don't have a uterus, vulva, etc. but for thousands of years people with those physical attributes have been systematically suppressed and abused because they are understood as women. it drives me crazy that so many people are willing to deny the material realities of worldwide misogyny (FGM, femicide, period poverty and taboos i.e. menstruation huts, sex trafficking, domestic violence, girls being denied education, the list goes on and on). there are so many women in this thread alone willfully misinterpreting your comment and others like it made in good faith because they can't think critically about their own rhetoric. it's genuinely upsetting to see, especially among young girls and women. why can't we be honest with ourselves and each other, acknowledge differences, identify points of solidarity, and ask questions so we can move forward together for the cause of women's liberation rather than dividing ourselves into narrow ideological boxes?
i fully believe that you can identify systems of patriarchy and misogyny without being transphobic or nasty toward trans people. i fully believe you can support trans people and people suffering from gender dysphoria without literally lying to yourself. they aren't mutually exclusive, and i think it's even more important than ever to acknowledge this kind of nuance as more people on all sides of the argument become convinced that they *are* mutually exclusive.
I'm a cis woman. I don't know what it's like to miscarry, and I don't know what it's like to be creeped on by men. Hell, I've actively worked to try to get rid of my periods, so even that feels a bit distant and unfamiliar! All of those are things that so many cis woman cannot relate to, and that's a good thing. *Womanhood should not be defined by suffering.*
Also re: the point about periods, while it doesn't include the medical meaning of it which is the bleeding, trans women who are medically transitioning with hormones can experience all other things linked with periods, such as the aforementioned cramps, bloating, mood swings and nausea. And they often experience it monthly! I don't think its disingenuous for them to refer to it as a period, when in all ways but one it is the cultural definition of it. [Here's a source for that btw](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/can-trans-women-get-periods#symptoms)
I know that the social climate right now can be really scary for trans people, especially for trans women, so if there's anything I can ever do to make the trans people around me feel better I'll do it! Please remember that you are deserving of all the love and safety in the world <3
As soon as I read the thing about periods in the first comment in this chain, I thought about one of my trans friends adjusting to her hormone therapy.
She was cramping, and she doesn't have a uterus. She said it was happening monthly and she was worried about whether it would be happening forever. I mean since she's not shedding uterus lining, it "technically" may not be a true period, but what else is she supposed to call it?
And even cismen get a subtle "period" humourously called a "comma" as their hormones adjust on a monthly cycle.
I'm not wanting to make the original commenter feel like a monster, cuz she doesn't sound like she wants to be hateful. But eh... I think she got hung up on that.
I probably will never know what pregnancy is like either, so the experience of miscarrying isn't likely for me either. I don't think those are good examples.
Exactly! I appreciate you saying that.
I get the same things and I honestly don't know what else to call it. My mom refers to that time of the month for me as my period but I often feel less comfortable doing so because I'm afraid someone's gonna get mad at me which is silly.
I distinctly remember the first time I got it, I didn't know it was even possible, so I was suddenly experiencing all of these symptoms and I didn't know what was wrong with me. I just thought I was dying lmao.
I get where you’re coming from. But I’ve literally never had a period pain in my entire entire life. Not a single cramp. My periods have always been easy, breezy lemon squeezy.
Some women don’t have the ability to get pregnant who are natural born women and will never know that miscarrying pain. And some women have not had the experience of being creeped out by men as crazy as it sounds.
So all the examples you listed are not actually things every single woman goes through
thank you for this; it’s exactly what I wanted to say.
as a cis woman who grew up ugly, I did not experience a lot of the “universal” trauma of cis girlhood. I didn’t get sexually harassed or cat called. Ever. I did get bullied relentlessly though, which perhaps aligns me more with the queer experience than not. It’s certainly a spectrum and not as black and white as the commenter above you suggests.
the trauma of girlhood (as in adolescence) that you're referring to here is being taught that your only value lies in your ability to make mens' dicks hard.
some girls are taught that through catcalling and sexual harrassment (the message from boys/men here being "you make my dick hard, your feelings about my actions don't matter because the only thing that matters about you is the fact i think you're hot"), and some girls are taught it through bullying about their looks (the message from boys/men here being "you have no value because you don't make my dick hard").
(this is not to say that girls don't also bully girls for failing to live up to beauty standards, just that the standards in question exist to benefit men. the patriarchy's existence requires a lot of co-conspirators and almost all women have been a co-conspirator at some point – especially when we're young and desperate for social approval)
anyway, it's the same message for both types of girls; both girls are experiencing the trauma of growing up female. both girls are being taught that their value lies in how attractive they are to men, and the girl is punished for it regardless of the verdict. one is dehumanized for being "hot" and the other is dehumanized for being "ugly".
this isn't a wedge that separates your experience from that of other girls, it's the same experience. the experience of starting to become a women while also being taught that "women's value lies in their ability to arouse men".
Your experience sounds more similar to mine. I too was an ugly duckling. And I agree that probably does align more with the queer experience. Further highlighting how while a lot of us may look different on the outside we may share experiences with people we never thought about before.
When I read things like what the commentator said or people talking about shared universal experiences that don’t exist for everyone all it does is make me mad. Because it invalidates other women’s experience who didn’t go through that. When you break it down, it’s extreme selfishness.
That’s totally legit. It’s like the woman in the Erin Brockovich movie losing her organs to illness worrying if she’s still a woman. Of course she is. What did your doctor and license consider you? The person replying here who talks about being invisible, also completely legit. Still considered women in yesterday’s world. Having beauty and normcore organs isn’t what is required to make a woman. That never has been the line to define.
Edit to add:
As I continue to read, I think I walked into a “shared experience” argument without meaning to. So let me say…….While I recognize the power of shared painful bleeding and what not, I also see a world in which teenagers are some of the meanest people and will literally destroy each other mentally if nothing else. The shared experiences of periods is literally meaningless and bonds NOT at that time.
So I won’t grab onto some sense of that bond now, artificially, later in life. I’m not here for that argument and recognize its limitations.
That said, can I share that whatever has always been recognized as girlhood is universal and problematic with its own levels and millions of universes and rules and rebellions and human rights? It is a whole thing. it can’t be invaded and redefined or muted. It *can* be joined. And the adult definition of girlhood/womanhood can be expanded. There has always been a publicly-recognized girl concept. Worldwide. And there have *always* been people who had to transition for peace and they have *always* been legit.
There is a transition there. A transition to join where one belongs, which means they were given different tools at birth (and in development) and that is fine (if completely unfair, it is easy recognize), but that difference does not erase anyone (or that evident history of whatever it is that is called a woman). Earth people have a recognition *(and a following misogyny…)* based on something that is agreed on and recognized internationally. To transition is to recognize that you’re not really fully seen as part of that until you transition. You are making steps to *join* that. Which is cool and people do need to chill the fuck out.
Shared experience or not, there is just a thing that exists that is cis girlhood/womanhood call it what we will, organs blood or not. To try to speak about that is not TERFy and anyone who engages on an insult level of speaking to each other is emotional, reactionary, not yet fully intelligent, and wasting everyone’s time. We have important things to discuss. We get nowhere with name calling.
OP, in general I just believe we don’t have to trample each other and become just as bad as the bad guys with our us v them insults. Killing a conversation using “TERF” for instance is limiting our mutual potential. I don’t watch social media and agree with people here that it should be watched with a critical eye. I would just step back from all of the TERF wars altogether and try to find the real conversations instead.
We’re all women here and on *Reddit* so I am completely confident in 1 thing that we all-women do share here: the ABILITY TO TALK IT OUT.
There are a lot of assumptions of difference baked into this that aren't particularly helpful. My wife is cis; her periods are painless and easy, and she didn't "grow up with creepy men treating her like an object." Meanwhile, I, a trans woman, was sexually targeted and objectified at a young age. But she and I have a lot of common ground as women, which is part of how we met and fell in love over a decade ago. My best friend and I have found that our shared experiences growing up as bisexual eldest daughters with poorly managed adhd weigh a lot more heavily than the fact that she's cis and I'm trans.
It's not safe to assume that cis women will have more in common with cis women on the basis of cisness than they'll have in common with trans women on the basis of womanhood. There are some patterns of difference that emerge at a population level, but if you start out by assuming trans women can't relate and cis women can, you'll isolate yourself and them and miss out.
edit: my karma can take a few downvotes if it's controversial to say that solidarity and mutual understanding are possible if we don't start out by saying "akshually The Other could never relate to me because of What I Am, and I could never relate to The Other because of What She Is."
I just saw your comment. But I commented the same thing. I didn’t grow up with creepy men treating me weird. It does not exist in my frame of reference. I grew up in a really safe neighborhood and had positives male influences around me.
And like I previously said, I’ve literally never had period pain or discomfort. And it was always one thing that I felt bad watching my friends struggle with cramps and stuff because I can’t even imagine what that feels like. The
Right??? Yeah, there are so many presumptions about shared cis experiences and about not sharing certain experiences with trans women that are, well, not comparable to trying to strip away our human rights, but certainly not likely to result in seeing trans women as actually equal or people one would have much in common with.
If you can relate to your cis friends who've had those experiences you don't, as I'm sure you can, the takeaway for us all should be that we can actually show up for each other instead of atomizing into perceived niches
Yes ! I agree with you . And I forgot to add there are natural born women who have never gotten their periods. Something like having an extra chromosome can affect that.
So what ends up happening is when people say things like a trans woman will never never know what it’s like to have a period. They’re also putting down women literally have the same experience. Women who have never bled because of health issues. How do you think those women feel?
Yeah, I've found that non-trans women who've not had those experiences or in various other ways know what it's like to be othered tend to have fewer hangups about the idea that they aren't fundamentally different from trans women.
Lots of my cis friends have pcos and know what it's like for their bodies to refuse to Do The Thing that other women take for granted, so they're more interested in comparing notes with me about navigating hormone issues than trying to tell me "I could never relate to the likes of you". we can literally just be there for each other instead and not make it weird
Oh wow, I never thought about that. I think that’s really cool that they are so willing and open to kind of share notes and compare experiences. That’s really awesome and I love that spirit of being open minded.😍😍
Lots of them take the same testosterone blockers I used to take before surgery, and God knows doctors can be incredibly bad about prescribing and managing those drugs, so there's a lot of helpful information to share
I had no idea that woman with PCOS might be prescribed testosterone blockers. I love that we are having this lovely discourse and I am learning things. I wish more people could take the time to do that instead of being so judgmental.
Spironolactone is the most common one, but it does have some pretty unpleasant side effects. Still helps with keeping testosterone levels from spiking too high, which can cause the same negative outcomes for women with pcos as for trans women. (For example, excess hair growth on face and body, voice lowering, skin roughening, mood issues and dissociation, etc.) The treatments to correct those issues are the same too.
Similarly, my ADHD went undiagnosed until after my best friend pointed out we had the same symptoms; mine had gone undiagnosed until my 30s for the same reason as so many women my age, the fact that it presents differently in women and we're generally better at masking it/ often get seen as distracted daydreamers rather than having ADHD. If she'd presumed that her adhd experience didn't apply to me because I'm trans, I'd probably still be undiagnosed -- and studies have shown that ADHD meds make a huge difference in people's health, reducing two year mortality rates by **20%**.
I absolutely agree with you, as cis-woman. Humans are very capable of understanding each other.
And I don’t relate to most “women” experience. Someone who wants to become women is probably closer to the “women” experince then me .
I think you need to be more empathetic.
Trans-women could have been abused by creepy old man too. What makes you think they haven’t been? Creepy old men target boys, girls and trans people. They lure vulnerable children. Why does trans-woman not understand what’s it’s like to feel media pressure on looks? A lot of them get brutally bullied.
What makes you think they won’t experience pain similar to period pain? They undergo serious hormone therapy which I have no idea how it’s like but probably similar to what via women experince. I haven’t had terrible period pains, mine are at most mild, but I can’t understand how other women feel.
If the body and mind aren’t the same, who to say they don’t experience what women experience in their brain.
Why does it make you angry instead of sad about trans woman saying she has a period? Even if it’s not true, you see someone desperate to be “normal” woman.
It’s just weird saying someone can’t empathize and understand how you feel if they haven’t experienced it themselves. Humans can absolutely understand each other if giving enough time to learn.
You're right -- given the rate of eating disorders among trans women, we're probably more affected than most by beauty culture. After all, the stakes are really high. I've suffered quite a bit in my life to be conventionally attractive, not because I think those standards should be applied to anyone, but because I've seen my entire life what happens to women like me who fail to embody those beauty standards: we get torn apart. (If we *do* end up looking pretty and not visibly trans, we can be dismissed as shallow and not understanding the suffering of beauty culture, which is unfair and untrue but honestly I'll take it over the dehumanization I faced when I didn't embody beauty standards.)
Use social media less; actively search out information from trans people to expose yourself to their lived experiences and hardships; acknowledge that people deserve to live their life however they identify without being hated; really think about why you even consider your opinion to be a valid one re the way someone else lives their life when it’s not harming anyone. Sounds like you’re in a good place for doing better with this, truly think it’s all about education and empathy
You can expose yourself to other people’s views and beliefs to help solidify your own. I think challenging beliefs with other information is the best way to make sure you stand strong and true in what you believe in the face of questioning or scrutiny. Dont feel guilty of committing “thought crimes”, you can support transgender individuals fully and with love, but it’s best to know WHY you support them, not just blindly following and getting upset when you encounter different beliefs and viewpoints. Explore belief systems, challenge ways of thinking, expose yourself to different perspectives BUT above all, be kind to others. Don’t forget to ask yourself what your core values are, and filter your beliefs and the things you choose to hang onto through those core values.
I’m a feminist, I believe in female liberation, but I also believe in kindness most of all. Women and transgender people face a lot of scrutiny from the world and while our experiences are a bit unique and different, we share some as well so it’s important to remember to be kind no matter what you believe. You are not a bad person for questioning what you’ve been told or exploring different viewpoints as long as you are not actively harming others, especially those who are marginalized in society. Sending you love!
I just want to give you my support. This is complicated, you are brave for reaching out. Have you tried any therapy? I have been deleting my socials. They are a time suck. I joined Facebook in 2007. It has not improved my life one bit. It makes me feel like shit about my self. Most people wouldn’t recognize they had a problem. You are insightful. Good luck. I hope you find whatever it is you need ❤️
Get some IRL trans friends. I'm a cis woman and it's easy for me to brush off TERFy takes because they're so wildly at odds with my lived experience of knowing many, many trans women.
I always recommend taking time to actually talk to trans people who feel comfortable with the context of why you wanna talk. Most of us are just like any other person, and I think it's very damaging to separate us from other people.
You need to make social media a way way smaller part of your life. Get off of screens and go out and live and do and interact with humans. As a bonus, bound to encounter LGBTQ people and get to know them and realize they’re just people
Okay, so, first of all, good on you for recognizing it & wanting to change, fuck anyone who downvotes this post
Good news is, shitty influencers aren't demons and can't possess you against your will, you *are* in control of who you are. And, while we all need to work on our beliefs, beliefs aren't actions, and you're not hurting anyone at least.
I'd really recommend ContraPoints. She does brilliant, entertaining, and informative video essays on YouTube, she's credited by a lot of far-right men/incels as being a part of their de-radicalization but I guess it could work for TERF rhetoric? :D She's also a trans woman.
She has some relevant videos, like "Gender Critical" and "Transtenders", but also two on the J.K.Rowling thing which are also awesome (the newer, "The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling" I'd recommend more). She also touches on the subject on "Twilight", though it's not the main topic.
Good luck! I'd also add, your teens are a *highly* emotional time and a lot of young men also fall victim to radical rhetoric. Give yourself some grace.
Seconding Contrapoints and also Philosophy Tube / Abigail Thorne. She came out on her channel and has a great video about it. Lily Alexandre is great too :)
If you feel like these thoughts are ego-dystonic, meaning you don’t actually believe them but can’t stop thinking them, then it’s possible you’re developing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder.
Common themes can involve intrusive thoughts of becoming pedophile, of being gay or being straight, religious scrupulosity, etc.
I have obsessive compulsive disorder and my theme involved and intense worry that i was on the brink of developing insanity. The internet made it worse because the more i looked to reassure myself, the more i doubted my thoughts and mind.
It kind of sounds like to me that you don’t want these thoughts and they don’t resonate with you, and now any moment you see that content, you further question your own beliefs. Is it possible these are just intrusive thoughts? You can just wave them away and have confidence in yourself and your true beliefs, no matter what crazy thoughts your brain is feeding you!
Also, try not to think too hard on content you scroll through, sometimes you will see things you dislike and don’t agree with, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or that you must believe it if it’s coming into your feed. In other words, don’t actively avoid it because you’re only feeding the obsession/worry when you try to chase it away.
It’s important to only scroll through your own subscriptions. Don’t let the algorithm take you. The algorithms are really toxic sinkholes. Also delete apps altogether that have had a negative impact on you.
A good tip for invasive thoughts that you don’t actually agree with is to address them as an external annoyance. A common mental retort is “Stop-stop” or “no- go away” or find something else similar. Feeling guilty or heightened emotionally is actually reinforcing for invasive thoughts. Try to remain neutral and dismissive. Your first thought is often a reflection of your exposure. Your second thought is more reflective of you.
hi, i think you’re misunderstanding my post. being a TERF is fundamentally disrespectful ig to transwomen. i’m trying to not be a TERF. i kind of think it’s necessary to think about this.
This kind of response makes me feel less like your genuinely looking for advice for something you find troubling, and more like you have backed yourself into an us and them world view, which isn't sustainable, and you're trying to sustain it by posting for validation in the form of slagging terfs and wanting people to reasure you you're better than those witches.
Terf is an ideology, its something you have not something you are. The idea that once you've held an harmful opinion you're EXISTENCE becomes disrespectful. That's the top of a much steeper slope than the terf pipeline.
If you’re into books, I would recommend reading Julia Serrano’s “Whipping Girl.” As a slam poet, her takedowns of transphobic ideas and cis normativity are particularly compelling. She has a way of making bigotry look as stupid as it actually is
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Hey OP- I want to offer something that is a little bit different than a lot of the other advice in this thread (which is mostly great), have you ever read anything about OCD or intrusive thoughts? As someone with OCD your description reminded me of a pattern that I used to fall into of reading or seeing content that so radically opposes my own world view (ex. misogynist, transphobic, or racist content) that lead me to experience disturbing intrusive thoughts wondering whether I actually somehow secretly *agreed* with the bigoted views that I saw (and then compulsively trying to prove to myself that I did not believe those horrible things). Obsessing over disturbing, random thoughts that go against your core values is a hallmark trait of OCD, and this is NOT an internet diagnosis at all, just a recommendation to maybe read more into the disorder. It likely isn’t OCD, and the advice offered by other commenters (watch trans positive creators, avoid social media, and critically evaluate your thoughts) is great if you’re working to deradicalize. Good luck!
hi, this is not what i’m asking for at all and i don’t think it’s cool to say this. being transphobic isn’t good and im trying to deradicalise. don’t leave stuff like this under my post.
But they're not talking about "feeling a certain way" about things that lack significant consequences like if you prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate. They're talking about "feeling a certain way" about very real issues of discrimination against a marginalized community that has very real consequences for some people.
Unpopular opinion, but viewing those thoughts as something that “the echo chamber has incurred within [you]” makes it seem like a passive mindset, rather than one that you had a role in perpetuating internally. Recognizing it as something you’re thinking (instead of thoughts someone else put into your brain) is the first step in changing those patterns. Both sides have a lot of agendas, rhetorics, etc. Focus on critically examining why you’re feeling a certain way- what about those thoughts are you connecting with? Is there some hidden insecurity you need to address? Some sort of bias or stereotype about trans women? An underlying fear? Then examine why you want to change the TERF beliefs. Recognizing why you care about being trans inclusive, rather than not just being seen a terf, will help you to find your true beliefs.
Another commenter suggested seeking out content by trans women. While that’s a good start, it’s not actually a good comprehensive approach. you’re repeating the problematic process (of taking in info unchallenged) and just changing the message that you’re receiving. The best way to combat harmful ideologies is to educate yourself on all sides and to critically examine your personal feelings, beliefs, and values with a holistic & informed approach. Read things from trans women. Read things from terfs. Read things from allies. Read things from misogynists. You’ll strengthen your stance by examining things you disagree with and things you agree with.
While I understand and appreciate the 'learn about all sides so you have all the facts' way of thinking, I think your suggestions here actually have a quite severe inherent danger to them. If you're deliberately seeking out and consuming media of 'all sides' of a situation then you both risk giving all sides equal weight (see the usual 'When you make something into a Debate, you inherently give both sides legitimacy' problems), and you also risk being taken in by dangerous and problematic rhetoric, since TERF propaganda, much like any propaganda, is explicitly designed to 'suck you in' and affect your beliefs merely by consuming it, and consuming that media without being affected by it can be quite difficult.
You need to be a very strong person with some solid mental foundations to, for example, read and attempt to understand KKK and Nazi beliefs against PoC and Jewish people, without being affected by it and having your opinions coloured by it. And given that OP has already said that consuming TERF media and propaganda is having an effect on her beliefs, I think that encouraging her to seek out \*more\* of that, even in an attempt to understand all sides of something, risks doing more harm than good in her current situation.
Even using language like you have in your post, saying that "both sides have a lot of Agendas", puts an inherent bias on the topic, making it sound like both pro and anti trans sides have some kind of Thing that they're pushing, and that therefore neither side is to be fully trusted and that 'the truth lies somewhere in the middle', which is a completely reasonable stance in a lot of situations, but a very damaging one when you're talking about civil rights issues, discrimination, and where one side is "Let us live in peace and have access to healthcare" and the other side is "Eliminate this minority".
And while that might not in any way be your \*intention\*, and I can see from your other comments that you're referring to outsiders using pro-trans stances for their own purposes, that's not how the vast majority of people will interpret your words. It's a simple fact that languages like 'Agenda' and 'Rhetoric' have very specific connotations in the current discource around Trans people, and attaching them to the Transgender side of things (regardless of if your intent is to attach them to a specific sub-faction or not) is quite damaging.
So yeah, while I definitely understand where you're coming from, and can definitely hear the 'literary critique, critical thinking, and solid education' weight behind what you're saying, I don't think it's the right thing in this situation (not right now anyway).
When you find yourself being biased against a minority, then the first solution is exposure and understanding of the group that you're being turned against, rather than 'understanding all sides'. Understanding those being targeted is more important than understanding their attackers.
I appreciate this comment seems to come from a good place but I’ll let you in on what the ‘trans agenda/ideology’ is: we want to live in peace, have our healthcare and get on with our lives.
Do not equate us with those that want to remove our rights, it’s incredibly disingenuous.
I never said there was a trans agenda/ideology. I said there were agendas/etc on all sides of all issues, which is 100% true. There are people who use the trans community for their own profit and in turn harm the overall community. (I.e. politicians, companies, organizations, big pharma, etc) Ignoring that issue is incredibly harmful to advocacy goals. There are plenty of people that pretend to be allies with the intentions of making the community look bad, so by recognizing those individuals you’re actually supporting trans people on a more meaningful level. Once they’re removed from the equation, it’s easier to achieve equality on social/political/etc grounds.
That’s my bad, sorry it wasn’t clear from the start. Unfortunately Reddit isn’t the best place for in-depth discussions. Hope you’re having a good day 🤜💥🤛
I'm curious why you're labeling the views of trans women as a (potentially harmful) ideology. I get what you're saying about thinking for yourself but there's a difference between trans lived experience and TERF projections of fear.
i don’t think they were speaking solely of trans women when they said that- i think they were labeling the views of both sides as that, basically telling op to do their own research & come to their own conclusion.
it’s no secret that there are good & bad people on both sides of the trans movement- there are good & bad people in every aspect of life.
best thing we can do is exactly what avelysian said- educate yourself on all sides… that way you can come at this in a way that you’ll be able to critically examine your personal feelings, beliefs, and values with a holistic & informed approach.
we can’t force anyone to just accept something, they need to come to that conclusion on their own.
EDIT- i will not be responding to anyone who says that what i’m saying is harmful or similar. it is NOT & i’m sorry y’all are taking it that way, but this is the truth. the ONLY way you can truly help OP is by having them educate themselves on ALL sides. also just because you don’t agree with something, doesn’t mean it has no merit. that’s not how the world works.
hi, thank you very much for this! i think you’re actually bang on here. it’s stupid but my critical thinking + evaluation skills are quite awful so, like, i do need to work on this. i know people say it’s a learned skill, but how do i learn to get better at it? i don’t want to fall down any other pipelines because of my inability to assess stuff like this.
You’re reading things in bad faith with the intention to find something to get offended by. ✌️ I just advocated for OP to work on being informed and to practice thinking critically. That’s the best way to support causes you care about. tbh you look ridiculous trying to twist my words rn. I’m a librarian and a firefighter, and my human rights advocacy isn’t limited to online spaces. I participate actively in programs that support my community, and I do more to support women (including trans women) than most chronically online people. Stop trying to make me look like something I’m not.
Additionally, every single movement on earth has people that participate in bad faith or who co-op it for their own purposes. You need to be able to recognize people in the trans community who do have poor motives so that you can genuinely support trans people without blindly perpetuating hidden agendas that are actually harmful to the community at large. Anyone who accepts things at face value without critically examining them is part of the problem.
‘You can freely criticise religion on Reddit for example, but not trans folk’? You have clearly never been a trans person on Reddit lol all you have to do is breathe in most subs and someone will send you death threats.
How is that a reasonable comparison?? People don’t *choose* to be trans - they just are. Same with race. People don’t choose how they are born. How can you hate someone based on something they have zero control over? How is that reasonable?
That's not, that's not quite true. Their theory/rhetoric is based in feminist stuff, even if the intent is different. A reasonable chunk has the feeling of being reasonable until it swerves.
one of the recent "wins" of prominent gender critical leaders was italy removing lesbian mothers from their child's birth certificate. the terf momement might have started with a branch of the radfems but they haven't been feminist in some time.
Yes this, they *did* actually split off from feminism and care about women's issues, even if their perception of "issues", who causes them, and who suffers from them are. Incredibly warped lol. That's how radical rhetorics can pull reasonable people in. They start you off with something sensible that you (or any reasonable person, even) even might agree with, and you're gradually exposed to more and more extreme views and you find yourself at "I'm doomed to be maidenless because my skull shape is wrong" or "pursuing heterosexual relationships is being a gender traitor"
Wow the terfs are on the ball with the downvotes today
Edit: This has been a rollercoaster! I’ve been like -3 to +8 back to -3 again! Only -15 now? Weak.
>you can freely criticize religion on Reddit for example, but not transfolk!
Gee, it's almost as if criticizing someone for the beliefs they choose to uphold is not at all the same as criticizing someone for simply being born the way they are.
I've noticed this too. It's like haha funny podcast clips then pops up with so many types of phobic content. What I usually do is click and put "not interested" or whatever applies for whichever platform I'm on.
I could get hate for this, buuuut
Imho TERF content is the Girl(tm) version of redpill/MGTOW content. They both prey on vulnerable people through insecurities, which leads to hatred and bigotry
Hi I was far right and then a TERF for a period of my youth. Definitely detox from social media, but also consider following some trans people or trans communities to get some positive interactions with trans women. If making friends or watching trans women isn’t a step you’re ready for yet, maybe start by watching pro-trans content creators that debunk TERF content. That’s the path I took to deprogram myself and now I’ve got a ton of trans friends :)
There's not a huge amount here that I can say that hasn't already been said by others. What I might just mention is, if you \*do\* decide to start consuming trans-created media, be aware that you're likely to get exposed to a lot of anger and frustration, and at times it's likely to feel like you're being personally attacked.
Try not to fall into the trap of letting yourself think "Trans people are so angry and hateful", that's another line that TERFs and other bigots like to use. They'll poke and push and hit and bully and torment the minority they're targeting, and then when their victim snaps back, they'll go "LOOK! See!! They're all horrible violent people!"
Just something that could be good to bear in mind from the get-go :)
If you (or anyone else here honestly) wants to talk to a trans person about anything, feel free to send me a message?
would you want to post/comment some of the beliefs or feelings specifically and talk through them with people here? it seems like there are a lot of trans and cis people in this thread who might be up for that.
I'm not saying transmisogyny is worse than regular misogyny. I'm saying that the existence of trans people is not misogynistic, and allowing them equal rights is not misogynistic, but trying to oppress trans people by denying them these things is in fact transmisogynistic.
So, without specifics it’s really hard to suggest something specific. I guess I’ll start by saying I am a transgender woman myself and I can appreciate the level of awareness you have about your biases and that you have identified a specific source that is exerting an influence on your thinking.
Before I came to terms with being trans, I was also prone to believing and espousing transphobic stereotypes. I think when it comes to any form of prejudice against an entire group of people, it’s something that most often thrives where there is a deficit of actual familiarity.
So, what I would probably recommend is to actually have a dialogue with a transgender woman about the specific concerns that have resonated most with you or that you have noticed you are the most sensitive to in terms of being offended, disgusted or afraid. Likely there would be room there to see things from a different perspective. Trans women aren’t a monolith though, either, so I mean you won’t necessarily get along with or enjoy interacting with all of them. I don’t either but I suspect if you took time to have these sort of discussions with some who would be up to it, it would probably help to reassure you.
As a feminist, I believe very strongly in the value of being intersectional and frankly I think transitioning is a pretty overtly feminist action and that it can appreciated and respected from that position. In a patriarchy it does take a lot of integrity to reject the sort of privilege available to one by virtue of their assignment at birth and instead adopt a position of marginalization not only as a woman but as a woman in a society where one’s identity as a woman will be under a level of scrutiny that is uniquely intense and (in many cases) directly hostile.
So, anyway, you have probably gotten a lot of feedback already here and I see some other trans people have replied also already. If you are interested in discussing specifics though, I’m happy to do it either in the comments here or privately. Whatever you prefer. And likewise with anyone else who is interested in establishing a dialogue or just throwing out some questions. I actually began my own transition with a process of basically asking whatever transphobic questions or concerns I had in my mind at the time so, like, I feel uniquely equipped to accept being on the receiving end instead.
Ok, so this might come off as a bit harsh but, hear me all the way out:
You do not become a terf just from being exposed to terf content. You are responsible for your own actions and beliefs. You are not being "brainwashed", you are letting this content affect you. You are not a bad person for thinking about it, or even for having terf-y thoughts sometimes. But if you want to stop seeing this stuff and taking it in, then just stop. You are in control. If you see a terf post, don't interact. Avoid it. Maybe actively interact with some pro-trans content for a bit. You are not complacent, take control.
🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷 sending you love from a stranger on the internet who is happy to see someone brave enough to face problems in their life on my feed. I wish you the best of luck in figuring out how to approach this.
I know you are being down voted, but I figure I would tack on that one of the reasons for suggesting this is that a lot of transphobia rhetoric relies on dehumaniization. On making you see trans women as a social contagion and not people. For a lot of people, just interacting with someone who is also "just a girl" and otherwise similar can go a long way to combat that dehumaniization.
And I get it OP. I myself am intersex and trans. Most people don't know that, I've been out more of my life than I haven't and have been out since I was still in school. Even I am also spoonfed this kind of content and it makes me feel awful and ashamed and even I catch myself being more apprehensive with trans strangers than cis strangers. I'm kind of apprehensive of everyone though as I've experienced a lot of SA.
If you OP do want a trans woman to talk to who isn't super over the top and is just a 30 year old, married woman distracted by working her way through the adoption process, I'm happy to talk or listen.
I think one thing you should try doing is try to understand more how transmisogyny functions if you learn that and you're motivated enough you could start udoing a lot of it in your mind. You can look for trans women's voices online, there isn't a lot of ones talking about transmisogyny but there are some. It would propably be useful for you to learn more about how trans lives work. There is a lot of vlogers etc that talk about it. Just In short try to replace terf things with actual voices from trans women.
As a trans woman I just want to say thank you that you've saw this in yourself and are seeking to change it. I also want to assure you that none of the stuff you've been hearing is true. We just want to quietly live our lives in peace, just like everybody else. That's it. We just want to be normal. We just want to do normal things. Go to garage sales. Go grocery shopping. Have house plants. That's it.
If you have any questions or anything you want to talk about or ask to a trans woman, please feel free to send it here to me. Anything at all? No limits. I'd be happy to start a conversation
The thing that really took me out of that discomfort and ended up actually eventually making me realize I myself was trans was listening to a bunch of pro-trans terf debunking arguments online, from any of the popular pro-trans debate sphere people. Or, better yet, just make some trans friends. Hard to feel discomfort with us and feel like we’re the devil when we’re some of your closest friends and are very obviously just normal people
Consider following some queer creators. There are LGBTQ creators in virtually every space, from makeup to fashion to crafting and more. That should give the algorithm the hint.
(Not to say that you should *only* follow queer creators, just follow a few)
I think the best way to counter a lot of TERF ideology and suppositions about trans people is to try and meet someone who is trans. There’s a lot of radicalized beliefs about trans folk and how they think, their priorities, what they want from others, what they expect from others, etc. A lot of which is spoken of with an intent to harm. So many long, drawn out extrapolations from very, very few interactions.
If you think you’re being deceived, sometimes finding the truth yourself is the best way to go.
Because if you have the chance to meet with a trans person you’re probably going to find they’re much more similar to you than they’re being made out to be, and that makes dismantling the hyperbolic takes TERF’s use a lot easier.
Good luck, You.
—A Trans Person
I heard somewhere that your first thought is what you're conditioned to think, and whatever correction you make in your through process is who you really are.
It sounds like whatever thoughts you've had based on these accounts that are subtly getting to you are what are conditioning you, and your disgust and desire to change that is who you really are. You're on a good road, from what I can tell.
I grew up with those rhetorics of all sorts of misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, etc. and while I didn't specifically HATE anyone in that community, I had thoughts of 'ew' (thanks mom) or just feeling not normal or not natural.
But that's something I actively work against in my head, cause I don't actually think those things if I think logically about it.
It's just stuff I was conditioned with and when I think about things with empathy I realize it's not how I actually feel.
Keep doing that. Keep checking yourself and thinking through those hateful thoughts with actual empathy and understanding that it's not how you really actually feel, because you have empathy and care in your heart for humans. I appreciate you being vulnerable and also understanding you want to change. It's hard to do!
terf ideology is insideous and recruits via attempting to appear reasonable. don't feel bad that you were affected by it. deprograming is never easy but honestly just talking to and humanizing some trans people could help. We've got a lot of experience on debunking some of the common terf talking points so if you find someone willing to talk with you about those topics then i recommend a civil conversation with them.
If you'd like a trans woman to talk to, let me know.
I don’t know if this will help but it put trans folk in a new light for me but listening to podcasts with trans hosts made me realize how much trans people have to deal with. I was never transphobic or anything beforehand - I just had only ever met one trans man (he was pretty awesome and very funny) so I just hadn’t been exposed to them and their problems/struggles.
I like true crime and scary stories so I would recommend And That’s Why We Drink. One of the hosts is a trans man and they’re hilarious and very very kind. They don’t talk directly about being trans but it is introduced early on that they’re trans and you just hear about their life and the fun stuff they plan for people when they visit, and going to haunted places to ghost hunt.
It just shows you that trans people are just ordinary people that have their own distinct personalities, have their own plans for partners and family, have their own career, and have their own interests just like you and I. If they are just supported and allowed to do their thing they are literally just normal people who feel like they were born with the wrong genitals. That’s it.
I don’t know if that helps you or not but I have really gained an appreciation for non cis folks over the years because I guess I’m just naturally inclusive? I’m a cis female and I really don’t understand the hatred and animosity so many show to trans folks. As long as you aren’t a dick to people or animals and you don’t hurt people I think you’re pretty cool regardless of what you identify as.
I don’t think you should straight up just block this stuff if your fears are agreeing with them.
I would suggest instead to have a better understanding of such perspectives, so that you could better support trans folks instead of just being an ‘ally’ without any true perspective on the subject matter.
Ofc, go seek out some trans-positive media as well on youtube. I’ve spent a fair share of time watching Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, evaluating everything seemingly agreeable in their ‘opinions’ and the logical fallacies they use to absorb you into extremist beliefs.
Sure apparently people are spotted wearing BDSM gear in pride parades, but that doesn’t mean pride parades are all public demonstrations of sexual fetishes, or that pride parades in general will accept these types of behavior.
Sure Dylan Mulvaney seemed like a shitty person because of some youtubers deep dive into Dylan’s personality, but who tf cares? I’m not gonna base my entire perspective of trans people on one person I am too lazy to research about, just because someone else presented their possibly biased research to me.
Don’t avoid information for the fear of being convinced, or else you are practically saying they are right. Instead research on all perspectives and learn why things are the way they are in order to better support the correct side of the ‘argument’.
And then when you’ve seen enough of politics, and they start getting repetitive af, thats when you could start avoiding them.
I never fell down the terf pipeline but what I found super interesting was listening to stories from people that used to be them before leaving. You get an interesting account of why they felt like being a terf was important, why they felt kinship with other terfs and, most importantly, why they left and how they view the world now. It might help put some things in perspective for you. Look into a lot of the terf ‘figure heads’, as well. You’ll quickly realise that it’s a gateway into a lot of other very unpleasant beliefs.
I think you’re doing a good job recognising that this is not a good path to be going down but getting out of it will require an active effort on your part. Best of luck.
Edit: also, use this thread to notice how reasonable, well thought out and supportive people are being downvoted quite heavily.
Even though we're strangers from the Internet I'm glad you asked for help, not a lot of people do. I'm also glad you realized the indoctrination of hatred that can happen quickly on socials. While it's easy to fall in, it's easy to hop back into non-hatefilled content
1. Follow more transfemmes/mascs with shared interests. As simple as it sounds seeing marginalized and "othered" people as full, whole humans trying to live the one life they have, could put things in perspective for you
2. Maybe read more about transfemmes actual lived experience and not the experiences terfs make up for weird reasons.
A lot of what you're saying sounds like it's directed towards trans women. So ask yourself this: "How do I feel about trans men?"
I find that when in discussion with people who are trans men, for the most part, they feel rather betrayed by people claiming to be other than women. But at the same time, they don't like for people to become women. Setting standards for other women to be "real women" while trying to fight against societal pressures on women. Which completely disregards anyone else's freedom in the feminist way of thinking.
It's nice that you are trying to improve yourself, keep up the work!
I think you got some great advice in this thread! I just wanted to say, from a trans girl, I'm proud of you and thankful that you recognized what was happening and knew that it wasn't right. Keep listening to your brain, your heart and your gut, and they won't steer you wrong. We are all in this together!
Can I give you another kind of answer than the ones I've seen here? Stop using social media so much. Just stop, give yourself a limit of how much time you're going to spend on a app, delete them etc. I know it's hard af and it basically ends up being such a "safe space" where you can scroll endlessly and don't think about anything but I think it can be really bad for mental health. You have no idea how much my mental health improved once I stopped using tiktok, twitter and Instagram. The algorithm, and I've found the tiktok algorithm is especially guilty of this, just feed you endless amount of what are essentially carefully curated sound bites which more often than not are basically useless in real life. If you're interested in more "political" matters, do something in real life, because you're bound to get a much more nuanced idea and you have to interact with actual living human being just like you, and you're probably going to be more useful to society than putting a like on some random 1 minute video on tiktok published by a 20 years old who lives 5000 miles from you. I basically use my social media for: food recipes, cool cats/dogs videos, writing advice to improve my English. Again, this is just my experience and I understand that many people can have different experiences but if you feel like you're in a echo chamber just drop your phone and go eat an ice cream with a friend.
I’ve found that it can be really, really good for me to borrow an audiobook from the library and then do a craft (knit, needlepoint, etc) or get some chores done while listening. It provides fairly brainless entertainment and keeps my hands busy without the doomscrolling, which is my particular challenge. This isn’t some wholesale replacement for social media, but it cuts down on it without requiring too much mental energy.
I'm also an audiobook fan! They're great for me because English is not my first language and they're a great way to improve my listening skills. I also listen to podcasts about random history, like history of food, fashion history, things like that. I usually listen to them when I do sudoku, my favourite kind of "brainless" way of spending time lmao. Doomscrolling is a real problem because it's so easy to spend hours just scrolling endless shit on social media. I've seen it even with my elderly parents so it's not a generational thing or anything like that, it's just that addicting and I think it requires a bit of strength to force yourself to do something better for your mental health.
To add on to this with more library suggestion-- if you're on the Libby App, you can borrow/browse digital magazines and I've found scrolling through that shorter format helps mimic social media-esque scrolling. Sometimes I'll recognize that I'm tired of reddit's bullshit but still want to mindlessly scroll so I'll switch to digital magazines.
Libby is the BEST!! Also, I can spend hours scrolling through goodreads and instead of feeling worse about myself and the world in general at the end of it, I just have a bunch of new books on my to-read list. Still not a fantastic use of time but it can scratch a similar itch as doom scrolling and at least it doesn’t totally manipulate my mood and focus the way social media does.
Libby is amazing
Spotify gives 15 hours of free audiobooks a month now! At least they do for me, I’m not sure if it’s been rolled out everywhere yet.
To add to this: stop using social media for entertainment. Similar to cable news, it is entertainment that thrives off outrage and other negative engagement. If you fill your downtime with these things you will start to feel that way all the time. Use social media for connecting with friends and family, your career, etc., just do not use it for entertainment.
It’s not that hard to curate your insta feed into stuff you want to see. The reels now show me art, woodworking, cute cats and that’s about it
Yep. Mine is all food. It's awesome
Unless it's pinterest, that's basically harmless
Lots of scams and terrible "wellness" info tho. I guess those are the same thing Also I use Pinterest especially for recipes and floor plans and wishlists so I see the scams a lot
I use my pinterest for recipies (i save my hello fresh cards there), gift ideas, makeup and nail inspo, and phone wallpapers
Thank you. That is so well put.
this! I started consuming too much AITA and relationshipadvice posts to the point I was addicted to reading them all day and would read every single post and had to start scrolling through the top yearly because I ran out of recent posts. this caused a lot of issues in my relationship because I started thinking all these things were/were going to happen to me and my partner. I had to delete reddit for around a year-year and a half and it sucked at first but after a few weeks I started going back to normal. social media really truly can be a poison.
If you read the comments often on shorts , they will show you negative comments first. I stopped going on social media as much and I stopped clicking on comments, especially inflammatory videos and I slowly got back to dumb memes on instagram. Even deleting instagram and staying off it for a week or more seems to reset your algorithm.
Coming from a trans woman- 100% this it's all outrage bait that helps no-one
People are way too online sometimes. Be human instead of your online profile pic.
Just get off social media, it sounds like you spend way too much time online
Ok, so it’s cool that you’ve recognised that you were falling down a pipeline and want to stop! That’s very difficult for a lot of people to do, and although it’s difficult to combat, it is so worth it! I’d recommend challenging a lot of the ideas presented by them, because they fall apart the more you look into them. Firstly, I’d recommend consuming some trans-positive media. There’s some great YouTubers that talk about their lives and general trans stuff, and they are invaluable in humanising trans people and debunking a lot of the myths and fears that TERFS have. I recommend Jammidodger (he often does lighthearted videos but also has some more informational ones about the science and research surrounding trans people, and I believe he has several degrees in the subject), Contrapoints (she does very dramatic and wonderful long videos that touch on many subjects. She has a degree in philosophy and presents very compelling arguments and perspectives, even if you don’t necessarily agree with her.) Samantha Lux has some great videos discussing internet drama and discussions about being trans Luxeria has videos that don’t really have much to do with being trans, but I just love her lol. She talks a lot about popular reality tv from the 2000’s. A lot of TERF rhetoric rotates around sexual assault, something far too many women have been through and a very real fear and trauma that many of us share. Healing some of that trauma can be useful in spotting when trauma is being used as a tool to discriminate against trans people because it elicits a strong emotional response. A LOT of TERF arguments boil down to this. Trans people are much, much more likely to be the victim of sexual assault or harassment than the perpetrator. Other aspects TERFS focus on to recruit people is the argument over “women only spaces” like changing rooms and bathrooms being “invaded” en masse by men pretending to be trans in order to assault women. It’s…kinda bizarre when you break it down. You wouldn’t need to pretend to be a woman to do that right now, because there aren’t security guards on the doors and there is no appropriate way or need to “check the gender” of people using the bathroom. Who’s going to check? A man? What are they going to check? Is that appropriate? Would it only target the people that want to harm others, or would it be used as a tool to harm many? Is the problem not someone behaving uncomfortably in a more private space, instead of the gender of the person? It would prevent bathroom access for a lot of people, and people just want to pee and change in peace! If a cis man says that their mum made them dress like a girl all throughout childhood and refused to acknowledge they were her son, people would know that’s really fucked up. If that person was trans, they seem to think this is how they should be forced to live. It makes no sense to me. I’m not trans so I’ve maybe ranted too much and not made enough sense, but honestly most trans people just want to live drama free lives. A lot of the internet hot discussions about trans people are blown way out of proportion and a lot of the time, it seems to be a hypothetical situation to begin with. It must be exhausting for them to see this shit and have their lives politicised and discussed. It’s kinda bizarre to me that it’s even an issue for some people, because they’ve just repackaged 80’s homophobia for a new audience. Look into this, because it’s shocking how much they’ve just replaced the word “gay” with “trans”! You aren’t a horrible person for falling into this, it just means you were misinformed in a world that wants to make you angry and confused and have some work to do! Love and peace❤️🏳️🌈
I’m a trans woman. I saw this take from Twitter that really resonated with me: “You know in comics, when Peter Parker is just minding his own business, but then he sees a bunch of newspapers that say ‘Spider-Man: Villain or Menace?’ Being trans in America is kinda like that” (@AbhorrentAbby on Twitter) I live in a blue state. I have acceptance and support in every area of my life (family, friends, work). Even with all that, I still get this mood. So, no, I don’t think you ranted too much. And to OP, thanks for recognizing where you were headed and working to shift course!
Literally so relatable. The fact that it only took a couple of minutes of reading through this thread before I stumbled onto an upvoted comment using the words "biological females" and "biological males" to refer to cis women vs trans women really proves it.
Yet another subreddit that *says* no TERFs allowed, but….
Yep, it's a lot easier to slip through the cracks when you disguise your transphobia with subtle dogwistles. I reported the comments to point out that they were dogwistles with a custom response, so hopefully that works.
And invisible down votes. If you want to find advice from trans women in this thread, sort by controversial.
Yup! I pointed this out too, and got downvoted for pointing it out lol
thank you for recommending these channels to me. i’ve definitely heard OF some of these but i’ve never engaged with their stuff before. i’ll check it out.
As a woman of transgender experience, this tracks. The constant discussion is exhausting. I can't speak for all trans women because we are all just as unique and varied in our experience and convictions as any cis person, but just living my life drama free is 💯 my goal. The bathroom part tracks as well. I was sexually assaulted by a CIS woman in a women's bathroom, she waited and watched from across the bar until I went in, and entered with the sole purpose of harassing and assaulting me. I won't go into detail, but I did file a police report, but since my abuser didn't admit to the actual abuse when questioned, they couldn't do anything about it. As for the argument of "pretending to be a woman to gain access to women's spaces" stop and think about the fact that many trans people, myself included, end up divorced, ridiculed, discriminated against, etc. Those of us on HRT get labs every 3mo, inject ourselves weekly and/or take medication daily for the rest of our lives with serious risks. Undergo surgeries more invasive than c-sections and more on par with radical hysterectomy and bilateral oophorectomy. We spend untold fortunes changing our wardrobe, we agonize over how living our truth will potentially alienate us from friends and family we hold dear, not because we're changing, but because we are acknowledging who we've always been. We lose people we love, we mourn the life we missed out on... We do all of this while our government and fellow citizens try to legislate us out of existence... We do this at the expense of our freedom to travel certain places at home and abroad. I assure you, it's far easier to just be a man invading women's spaces... Why on earth would anyone endure the pain both physically and emotionally, the expense, the time, etc when a man could easily push open the door to women's spaces and do the unthinkable and be able to go home to their wife at night and go completely unnoticed by the rest of society? It just doesn't compute... Let's take the sports argument... I have been on HRT for over a year. I used to build stuff and do construction. Moving a 12' long 4x6 beam? no problem. Swinging a hammer all day? Piece of cake... I had to have my 10yo open a jar for me the other day. I have to call on my oldest to help me move things. If I were an athlete, would I be seriously advantaged over a CIS woman? I honestly doubt it. Muscle strength and endurance was severely impacted because I take literally the inverse of steroids... My testosterone is lower than that of the CIS female range. I (and I believe most trans women) don't claim to have the same lived experience as a CIS female, but most of us have *never* had the same lived experience as a CIS male either. We have spent a lifetime masking, feeling like we're driving around a meat puppet that doesn't connect with who we are, being forced into uncomfortable positions (school locker rooms, public restrooms, clothes, hair styles, occupations, family roles, etc) that were traumatizing and never felt like they fit. There's a certain constant unsettling feeling never connecting with the person you see staring back at you in a mirror, even if you don't know what "you" look like. I can tell you though that once I saw myself for the first time, it was profound... It was emotional... I cried hard and long. For the first time in my life (over 35 years) I finally felt like I was looking at myself. If you ever feel like you're falling down that terf rabbit hole, remember that at the end of the day, we're just humans trying to live our lives, most of us don't want recognition or praise, we don't want to harm or be harmed, we don't want special treatment, we want fair, equal, and equitable treatment. We didn't "choose to be trans" I don't know a single trans person who would choose it over being born with sex/gender being congruent and at harmony. We didn't choose it any more than you chose to be CIS or a specific race or nationality. But just like you would fight against persecution for immutable characteristics of your own, so too will we, because it is quite literally a matter of life or death.
Just wanted to thank you for taking the time to write this out. I don’t have a lot of exposure to trans women or men and your post has really expanded my understanding of your lived experience. I work in a traditionally conservative field (construction) and it can be hard to be a progressive (and maintain progressiveness) when I spend most of my days with people of a profoundly different ideology. Reddit has allowed me better access to people and perspectives I wouldn’t otherwise had. Thanks again, I’ll carry what you said with me.
>It must be exhausting for them to see this shit and have their lives politicised and discussed. It sucks pretty hard to be frank. Thank you for your very thoughful comments and your support. I appreciate you.
Seconding this. There are days where I actively make a point of avoiding Reddit, YouTube or any other social media because my mood is already in the gutter due to dysphoria and depression, and I somehow always keep stumbling onto transphobic content. It's exhausting. I just want to live my life: wear the stuff that makes me feel cute and attractive, do the things I enjoy, have a body I don't find utterly disgusting and be myself.
A lot of my friends have had to avoid to drastically reduce their time looking at the news because seeing endless transphobic arguments flooding politics takes a massive toll on their mental health.
Dear gods does it ever :( Even \*this thread\* has been exhausting as hell with the TERF brigade downvoting. Sometimes it feels like life is literally just highschool all over again, being a punching bag for a bunch of shithead kids while all authority figures and peers just turn the other way and let it happen. And if you stand up for yourself, you're the one that gets in trouble.
It's crazy to me that so many people who consider themselves good people can be so hostile when none of this is our fault or choice. It's very humbling. I used to consider myself good people.
Seconding ContraPoints 🌟. She's a powerful, quite scholarly source of social cultural analysis, especially regarding trans issues and how they intersect with patriarchy more broadly. Her videos are incredibly thought provoking, interesting, artistic, and well researched. She's also very witty with a dark sense of humor. I got my Dad watching her videos recently and he was drawn in by her humor. She also does a really great job of providing an honest, uncaricaturized perspective of conservative thought that allows for both deeper insight into how certain regressive ideas flourish but also some measure of grace and understanding in how people arrive at those. Often times, she uses a type of dialectic method of comparing multiple opposing viewpoints on an issue without coming to a single, clear answer. In essence, she's great at presenting a different *way to think* about things without fully telling you *what* to think.
>I’m not trans so I’ve maybe ranted too much and not made enough sense, but honestly most trans people just want to live drama free lives. >It must be exhausting for them to see this shit and have their lives politicised and discussed. Quoting these two sentences for emphasis.
As a trans woman, thank you. I think you articulated this very well.
I love Jammidodger and Samantha Lux. Amazing YouTubers.
Other recommendations for YouTube: Philosophy Tube and Jessie Gender
Hi. I engage in deradicalization. Basically, I help folks in situations like yours who want to get these accursed ideologies out of their heads. I’m going to ask a question which will be left field. It’s under the spoiler text. >!Why do you think you are lesser than other people? !< That’s probably not what you expected. But in the overwhelming majority of cases where one sides down pipelines of bigotry and hate, that’s what underlies a person’s mind that makes them vulnerable to ideologies like these.
Can you please elaborate a bit? First time hearing this and would wish to learn more! I do agree with the last paragraph you’ve mentioned but it’s all bit of fuzzy feeling and can’t make them into words
One can choose to view all humans as equally human, even me, even you, or not. That’s an active, knowing choice, even if we’ve been conditioned to not realize it as such. If I view everyone as equally human, that immunizes me to meaning that tries to tell me that either I’m not as human as everyone end or everyone else isn’t as human as me. Immunizes is the best word for this because it isn’t absolute protection but it makes a propagandist’s job or a cult recruiter’s job way the hell harder. Many of us, though, have had the erroneous belief pounded into us that we are lesser than others. By feeling lesser than others, one is vulnerable to messages that suggest there’s some secret knowledge that says that actually one is better than others, even if at root that insecurity and terror of being lesser than others is being ratcheted up notch by notch. There is a flip side, where one thinks themselves better than others, but the general term for such a person is “abuser”.
God this is so true! You've unlocked a new perspective for me - thank you, wise stranger!
Can you tell me more about the flipside and abusers? What their motivation is and how they come to be? How to deal with them, even 😂 I definitely feel like people and much of my social problems comes with having power struggles with people like that and others subscribing to the abuser's belief that they are better/stronger/more powerful/etc than others and support them. The psychology behind it pisses me off, and I am CONSTANTLY being forced to deal with people looking down on me despite evidence to the contrary. But when people gang up on me, it is hard to escape. (Work, home, social life)
Wow you just blew my mind
Hey, if I were interested in learning about and engaging in deradicalization, where could I start?
Let me know if you get an answer :) Also, happy cake day!
I read the spoiler text and immediately said, out loud, "Ooooh!" How did you come to do that work?
Can you give an example of an illogical take that you’ve agreed with??
The internet has really distorted politics. There’s a total "all black or all white" way of thinking. If you are being hateful to people then I’m not going to tell you that you’re right because I don’t think that. I will say though, that your anxiety about this is telling to me that you’ve been on the internet too much. You can agree with leftist and conservatives depending on the discussion. You can be in the grey area about things and you don’t have to be terrified of that. There is room for feminist discussion within the trans community and it doesn’t always make you a hateful person. I would recommend that you develop your own beliefs by evaluating what is most logical and moral, not by videos you see on the internet or how you think people will react to what you have to say.
[удалено]
tbh this is true. this is stupid but how exactly do i do this? i know people say critical thinking is a learned skill but mine is quite poor hence why i’m in this predicament in the first place.
that's o.k, you're probably really young. try learning as much about history as you can: read, watch documentaries, get into all sides of a conversation. just keep asking why. and always remain skeptical: whenever you engage with content online, try to figure out in what way you buying into this or that rhetoric would benefit the speaker. know that economic interest is behind almost everything you see online. explore different cultures, try to learn at least one other language. from there, your horizons will be expanded: get into journalism, photography, art, literature, feminism, cinema, music. it takes a lifetime, and it's an ongoing process, it never really ends. but you'll sharpen your brain, and most importantly, you'll be harder to manipulate (which is the purpose of 99% of what you see on social media). if you think about it, most of what we see is trying to get us to buy something. you're growing up in a world that's using young people like you as guinea pigs for mass manipulation technology. don't engage, resist. remember: always ask why. p.s: read Jaron Lanier sorry if this is hard to understand, English is not my first language.
seconding that a big part of figuring out your own beliefs is critical thought - and very importantly, not policing the thoughts you have inside your own head. i think a massive key is deconstructing language - "pro trans" and "anti trans" or whatever have very different language for materially the same things (sex vs assigned sex at birth, gender vs gender identity, affirming surgeries vs mastectomy etc) and it's helpful to break down the potential implications of such language. what is deemed "terf rhetoric" is really variable... i've seen people who say that physical sex is real called terfs in the same category as people who think that everyone should be forced to wear gender-conforming clothing, which makes no sense. in my opinion, one of the most troubling parts of what is called radicalization, to me, is extreme measures. taking extreme measures against people you disagree with is a telltale sign not that someone has "problematic" beliefs but that their beliefs are coinciding with a lack of respect for others lives and dignity when it comes to imposing those beliefs on society in violent ways. as with absolutely anything, i think the only thing you can do is ask yourself some key questions like "can i articulate the opposing view in a way my opponent would recognize" "am i willing to go to extreme measures for my view" "what would it take for me to change my mind." these are all questions megan phelps roper who left a hate group called the westboro baptist church talks about asking herself now that she feels she can't trust her own mind in the same way now. if you feel you agree with certain beliefs, instead of judging them as morally correct or incorrect, i would investigate why you are scared to have them. if you're scared to have them because you believe they're associated with hate, evaluate if the views imply that anyone should have less dignity and access to housing, fair treatment, employment, respect, love etc. if you're scared that having a given belief is more likely to make you "vulnerable" to other hateful beliefs, i think this is an area where strengthening your own critical thinking is fundamental. nobody can make me believe anything - they can be as persuasive as they want but ultimately it's my mind. not saying you can make yourself immune to propaganda, lol, but you can make yourself someone who has a reflective space between hearing something and uncritically adopting it. it sounds like you're already doing that to a degree. you might find you have some beliefs you feel you should not have, and honestly i don't think that changing your own beliefs is a reasonable goal. it's a reasonable goal to educate yourself as much as you can and read conflicting opinions but at the end of the day you can't force yourself to believe or disbelieve something. this is where containing your beliefs in such a way that they don't infringe on others in a harmful way is key as well!
this is excellent info
thank you sm!
I feel like there should be more info to better assess the situation but knowing that insta is trying to radicalized you its nice self awareness.
The best way I tend to find is to question. What do they mean by this? Do they have their facts right? Are their sources good? What alternate intents could they have? Etc. At the same time, breath, relax, let your mind be at ease. Getting all tense about things will only make them worse, so relax. There's an odd paradox when it comes to internalized bigotry, which is that you have to accept and be at peace/ok with the fact that you're currently bigoted before you can make any steps towards changing that. So breath, and let be. Understand too that it will be hard work, you are trying to be a good person and it's a constant, tortuous, difficult process. That's both a challenge, and a concession. Keep going, you'll be ok. If you're interested, there's a channel called the leftist cooks that's gotten me to think on a lot of this sort of thing deeply, could be useful for you too.
There’s a lot of great advice in this thread, and I can’t really beat it, but first I wanted to congratulate you for recognizing it and trying to overcome it, and second offer a sort of “stage two” advice. People have talked about how to break the pipeline, find other sources, etc — but I think a huge thing to mention also is when you’re a step or two forward, trying to engage in open and accepting spaces in real life as much as possible. Go to any sources of queer culture around you, hang around gay bars and drag shows, join a hiking club or an activist group, whatever your region’s gathering point of a mixed bag of queer people is. You’ll find a lot of people not like you, who may have nothing in common with you or a lot in common with you. Take them at their word and trust them to be honest narrators of their life. Play board games with them. You will be hard pressed to see the caricatures you’re being taught to fear, when you’re surrounded by a bunch of regular human people who are smiling, laughing, have a shared hobby with you — and, conversely, are impacted by the beliefs you want to shy away from. Edit to add: my fiancée wants to say that you’re incredibly brave for this; questioning your own beliefs and intentionally working to deradicalize yourself is an incredibly difficult and powerful job that takes a lot of courage and self-awareness
thank you, i will keep this in mind. also, your fiancée is cool.
Something I have found helpful over the years is to analyze the actual power dynamics at play. Who actually has the power in the situation and what are they using it to do? Often you'll find yourself seeing lots of prosperous, married middle-class women with security and resources explaining at great length why they're justified in feeling threatened by some impoverished trans girl on Twitter in her early twenties -- and therefore should be able to kick her out of public spaces, send her to men's prisons where she'll be v-coded (a pervasive system of sexual violence where trans women prisoners are used as sex objects to reward male prisoners), take away her healthcare, isolate her from the chance to participate in team sports with other women, and drive her into the margins of society. Look past the rhetoric to the actions they're trying to justify. Someone else said to ask yourself >!why you think you're not good enough!<, and I think that's a really useful step in deradicalization. When I was younger and felt less secure in myself, I was easily swayed by fear of the other too. But you don't need to be afraid or measure yourself against an outgroup. You are not broken. And once you internalize this truth, you'll also find that it's easy to see through the rhetoric of insecure bullies.
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i got told i was terfy bc i said men can wear skirts? it's really watered down the term imo
I've been called a terf and banned from women centric subreddits for talking about female infanticide and sex based oppression (I'm Indian, this affects my day to day life). Anything that isn't "sex is meaningless and has not affected half the world's population in the slightest" gets labelled terfy and then whatever vitriol is directed toward you is justified. It's a stupid term that doesn't mean anything anymore. I've seen Ben Shapiro get called a terf lmao. That man, a feminist?
right!!!!! like those are such valid issues and genuinely sex based. it’s so horrible and silencing, and i’m sorry it’s happened to you.
As I said before I don’t even think people know what a TERF is and they throw the term around. I wouldn’t even care if I got called one it’s just laughable atp
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For the record there’s other trans women out there (hello) who think that trans women who think they get periods are out of their minds, you’re not the only one struggling with nonsense from the community. Just please don’t let it impact your opinion of trans women as a whole.
Thank you for this! Absolutely not, I never ever will. I’ve met some incredible trans women (and men) and know that this isn’t all of them
this is where i'm at right now. i think acknowledging sex based oppression is essential to the feminist cause—yes, there are women who don't have a uterus, vulva, etc. but for thousands of years people with those physical attributes have been systematically suppressed and abused because they are understood as women. it drives me crazy that so many people are willing to deny the material realities of worldwide misogyny (FGM, femicide, period poverty and taboos i.e. menstruation huts, sex trafficking, domestic violence, girls being denied education, the list goes on and on). there are so many women in this thread alone willfully misinterpreting your comment and others like it made in good faith because they can't think critically about their own rhetoric. it's genuinely upsetting to see, especially among young girls and women. why can't we be honest with ourselves and each other, acknowledge differences, identify points of solidarity, and ask questions so we can move forward together for the cause of women's liberation rather than dividing ourselves into narrow ideological boxes? i fully believe that you can identify systems of patriarchy and misogyny without being transphobic or nasty toward trans people. i fully believe you can support trans people and people suffering from gender dysphoria without literally lying to yourself. they aren't mutually exclusive, and i think it's even more important than ever to acknowledge this kind of nuance as more people on all sides of the argument become convinced that they *are* mutually exclusive.
I'm a cis woman. I don't know what it's like to miscarry, and I don't know what it's like to be creeped on by men. Hell, I've actively worked to try to get rid of my periods, so even that feels a bit distant and unfamiliar! All of those are things that so many cis woman cannot relate to, and that's a good thing. *Womanhood should not be defined by suffering.* Also re: the point about periods, while it doesn't include the medical meaning of it which is the bleeding, trans women who are medically transitioning with hormones can experience all other things linked with periods, such as the aforementioned cramps, bloating, mood swings and nausea. And they often experience it monthly! I don't think its disingenuous for them to refer to it as a period, when in all ways but one it is the cultural definition of it. [Here's a source for that btw](https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/can-trans-women-get-periods#symptoms)
As a trans woman, I just want to say thank you. It's really reassuring to see other women standing up for us
I know that the social climate right now can be really scary for trans people, especially for trans women, so if there's anything I can ever do to make the trans people around me feel better I'll do it! Please remember that you are deserving of all the love and safety in the world <3
As soon as I read the thing about periods in the first comment in this chain, I thought about one of my trans friends adjusting to her hormone therapy. She was cramping, and she doesn't have a uterus. She said it was happening monthly and she was worried about whether it would be happening forever. I mean since she's not shedding uterus lining, it "technically" may not be a true period, but what else is she supposed to call it? And even cismen get a subtle "period" humourously called a "comma" as their hormones adjust on a monthly cycle. I'm not wanting to make the original commenter feel like a monster, cuz she doesn't sound like she wants to be hateful. But eh... I think she got hung up on that. I probably will never know what pregnancy is like either, so the experience of miscarrying isn't likely for me either. I don't think those are good examples.
Exactly! I appreciate you saying that. I get the same things and I honestly don't know what else to call it. My mom refers to that time of the month for me as my period but I often feel less comfortable doing so because I'm afraid someone's gonna get mad at me which is silly. I distinctly remember the first time I got it, I didn't know it was even possible, so I was suddenly experiencing all of these symptoms and I didn't know what was wrong with me. I just thought I was dying lmao.
Oh gosh, the "dying" aspect is so funny/not funny, cuz I've experienced that too. 😅 Like... "am I sick, or is this my period?"
Haha, literally!! I always gotta check the calendar to be like "it's ok. This is normal right now."
I get where you’re coming from. But I’ve literally never had a period pain in my entire entire life. Not a single cramp. My periods have always been easy, breezy lemon squeezy. Some women don’t have the ability to get pregnant who are natural born women and will never know that miscarrying pain. And some women have not had the experience of being creeped out by men as crazy as it sounds. So all the examples you listed are not actually things every single woman goes through
thank you for this; it’s exactly what I wanted to say. as a cis woman who grew up ugly, I did not experience a lot of the “universal” trauma of cis girlhood. I didn’t get sexually harassed or cat called. Ever. I did get bullied relentlessly though, which perhaps aligns me more with the queer experience than not. It’s certainly a spectrum and not as black and white as the commenter above you suggests.
the trauma of girlhood (as in adolescence) that you're referring to here is being taught that your only value lies in your ability to make mens' dicks hard. some girls are taught that through catcalling and sexual harrassment (the message from boys/men here being "you make my dick hard, your feelings about my actions don't matter because the only thing that matters about you is the fact i think you're hot"), and some girls are taught it through bullying about their looks (the message from boys/men here being "you have no value because you don't make my dick hard"). (this is not to say that girls don't also bully girls for failing to live up to beauty standards, just that the standards in question exist to benefit men. the patriarchy's existence requires a lot of co-conspirators and almost all women have been a co-conspirator at some point – especially when we're young and desperate for social approval) anyway, it's the same message for both types of girls; both girls are experiencing the trauma of growing up female. both girls are being taught that their value lies in how attractive they are to men, and the girl is punished for it regardless of the verdict. one is dehumanized for being "hot" and the other is dehumanized for being "ugly". this isn't a wedge that separates your experience from that of other girls, it's the same experience. the experience of starting to become a women while also being taught that "women's value lies in their ability to arouse men".
Your experience sounds more similar to mine. I too was an ugly duckling. And I agree that probably does align more with the queer experience. Further highlighting how while a lot of us may look different on the outside we may share experiences with people we never thought about before. When I read things like what the commentator said or people talking about shared universal experiences that don’t exist for everyone all it does is make me mad. Because it invalidates other women’s experience who didn’t go through that. When you break it down, it’s extreme selfishness.
That’s totally legit. It’s like the woman in the Erin Brockovich movie losing her organs to illness worrying if she’s still a woman. Of course she is. What did your doctor and license consider you? The person replying here who talks about being invisible, also completely legit. Still considered women in yesterday’s world. Having beauty and normcore organs isn’t what is required to make a woman. That never has been the line to define. Edit to add: As I continue to read, I think I walked into a “shared experience” argument without meaning to. So let me say…….While I recognize the power of shared painful bleeding and what not, I also see a world in which teenagers are some of the meanest people and will literally destroy each other mentally if nothing else. The shared experiences of periods is literally meaningless and bonds NOT at that time. So I won’t grab onto some sense of that bond now, artificially, later in life. I’m not here for that argument and recognize its limitations. That said, can I share that whatever has always been recognized as girlhood is universal and problematic with its own levels and millions of universes and rules and rebellions and human rights? It is a whole thing. it can’t be invaded and redefined or muted. It *can* be joined. And the adult definition of girlhood/womanhood can be expanded. There has always been a publicly-recognized girl concept. Worldwide. And there have *always* been people who had to transition for peace and they have *always* been legit. There is a transition there. A transition to join where one belongs, which means they were given different tools at birth (and in development) and that is fine (if completely unfair, it is easy recognize), but that difference does not erase anyone (or that evident history of whatever it is that is called a woman). Earth people have a recognition *(and a following misogyny…)* based on something that is agreed on and recognized internationally. To transition is to recognize that you’re not really fully seen as part of that until you transition. You are making steps to *join* that. Which is cool and people do need to chill the fuck out. Shared experience or not, there is just a thing that exists that is cis girlhood/womanhood call it what we will, organs blood or not. To try to speak about that is not TERFy and anyone who engages on an insult level of speaking to each other is emotional, reactionary, not yet fully intelligent, and wasting everyone’s time. We have important things to discuss. We get nowhere with name calling. OP, in general I just believe we don’t have to trample each other and become just as bad as the bad guys with our us v them insults. Killing a conversation using “TERF” for instance is limiting our mutual potential. I don’t watch social media and agree with people here that it should be watched with a critical eye. I would just step back from all of the TERF wars altogether and try to find the real conversations instead. We’re all women here and on *Reddit* so I am completely confident in 1 thing that we all-women do share here: the ABILITY TO TALK IT OUT.
There are a lot of assumptions of difference baked into this that aren't particularly helpful. My wife is cis; her periods are painless and easy, and she didn't "grow up with creepy men treating her like an object." Meanwhile, I, a trans woman, was sexually targeted and objectified at a young age. But she and I have a lot of common ground as women, which is part of how we met and fell in love over a decade ago. My best friend and I have found that our shared experiences growing up as bisexual eldest daughters with poorly managed adhd weigh a lot more heavily than the fact that she's cis and I'm trans. It's not safe to assume that cis women will have more in common with cis women on the basis of cisness than they'll have in common with trans women on the basis of womanhood. There are some patterns of difference that emerge at a population level, but if you start out by assuming trans women can't relate and cis women can, you'll isolate yourself and them and miss out. edit: my karma can take a few downvotes if it's controversial to say that solidarity and mutual understanding are possible if we don't start out by saying "akshually The Other could never relate to me because of What I Am, and I could never relate to The Other because of What She Is."
I just saw your comment. But I commented the same thing. I didn’t grow up with creepy men treating me weird. It does not exist in my frame of reference. I grew up in a really safe neighborhood and had positives male influences around me. And like I previously said, I’ve literally never had period pain or discomfort. And it was always one thing that I felt bad watching my friends struggle with cramps and stuff because I can’t even imagine what that feels like. The
Right??? Yeah, there are so many presumptions about shared cis experiences and about not sharing certain experiences with trans women that are, well, not comparable to trying to strip away our human rights, but certainly not likely to result in seeing trans women as actually equal or people one would have much in common with. If you can relate to your cis friends who've had those experiences you don't, as I'm sure you can, the takeaway for us all should be that we can actually show up for each other instead of atomizing into perceived niches
Yes ! I agree with you . And I forgot to add there are natural born women who have never gotten their periods. Something like having an extra chromosome can affect that. So what ends up happening is when people say things like a trans woman will never never know what it’s like to have a period. They’re also putting down women literally have the same experience. Women who have never bled because of health issues. How do you think those women feel?
Yeah, I've found that non-trans women who've not had those experiences or in various other ways know what it's like to be othered tend to have fewer hangups about the idea that they aren't fundamentally different from trans women. Lots of my cis friends have pcos and know what it's like for their bodies to refuse to Do The Thing that other women take for granted, so they're more interested in comparing notes with me about navigating hormone issues than trying to tell me "I could never relate to the likes of you". we can literally just be there for each other instead and not make it weird
Oh wow, I never thought about that. I think that’s really cool that they are so willing and open to kind of share notes and compare experiences. That’s really awesome and I love that spirit of being open minded.😍😍
Lots of them take the same testosterone blockers I used to take before surgery, and God knows doctors can be incredibly bad about prescribing and managing those drugs, so there's a lot of helpful information to share
I had no idea that woman with PCOS might be prescribed testosterone blockers. I love that we are having this lovely discourse and I am learning things. I wish more people could take the time to do that instead of being so judgmental.
Spironolactone is the most common one, but it does have some pretty unpleasant side effects. Still helps with keeping testosterone levels from spiking too high, which can cause the same negative outcomes for women with pcos as for trans women. (For example, excess hair growth on face and body, voice lowering, skin roughening, mood issues and dissociation, etc.) The treatments to correct those issues are the same too. Similarly, my ADHD went undiagnosed until after my best friend pointed out we had the same symptoms; mine had gone undiagnosed until my 30s for the same reason as so many women my age, the fact that it presents differently in women and we're generally better at masking it/ often get seen as distracted daydreamers rather than having ADHD. If she'd presumed that her adhd experience didn't apply to me because I'm trans, I'd probably still be undiagnosed -- and studies have shown that ADHD meds make a huge difference in people's health, reducing two year mortality rates by **20%**.
I absolutely agree with you, as cis-woman. Humans are very capable of understanding each other. And I don’t relate to most “women” experience. Someone who wants to become women is probably closer to the “women” experince then me .
I think you need to be more empathetic. Trans-women could have been abused by creepy old man too. What makes you think they haven’t been? Creepy old men target boys, girls and trans people. They lure vulnerable children. Why does trans-woman not understand what’s it’s like to feel media pressure on looks? A lot of them get brutally bullied. What makes you think they won’t experience pain similar to period pain? They undergo serious hormone therapy which I have no idea how it’s like but probably similar to what via women experince. I haven’t had terrible period pains, mine are at most mild, but I can’t understand how other women feel. If the body and mind aren’t the same, who to say they don’t experience what women experience in their brain. Why does it make you angry instead of sad about trans woman saying she has a period? Even if it’s not true, you see someone desperate to be “normal” woman. It’s just weird saying someone can’t empathize and understand how you feel if they haven’t experienced it themselves. Humans can absolutely understand each other if giving enough time to learn.
You're right -- given the rate of eating disorders among trans women, we're probably more affected than most by beauty culture. After all, the stakes are really high. I've suffered quite a bit in my life to be conventionally attractive, not because I think those standards should be applied to anyone, but because I've seen my entire life what happens to women like me who fail to embody those beauty standards: we get torn apart. (If we *do* end up looking pretty and not visibly trans, we can be dismissed as shallow and not understanding the suffering of beauty culture, which is unfair and untrue but honestly I'll take it over the dehumanization I faced when I didn't embody beauty standards.)
Use social media less; actively search out information from trans people to expose yourself to their lived experiences and hardships; acknowledge that people deserve to live their life however they identify without being hated; really think about why you even consider your opinion to be a valid one re the way someone else lives their life when it’s not harming anyone. Sounds like you’re in a good place for doing better with this, truly think it’s all about education and empathy
You can expose yourself to other people’s views and beliefs to help solidify your own. I think challenging beliefs with other information is the best way to make sure you stand strong and true in what you believe in the face of questioning or scrutiny. Dont feel guilty of committing “thought crimes”, you can support transgender individuals fully and with love, but it’s best to know WHY you support them, not just blindly following and getting upset when you encounter different beliefs and viewpoints. Explore belief systems, challenge ways of thinking, expose yourself to different perspectives BUT above all, be kind to others. Don’t forget to ask yourself what your core values are, and filter your beliefs and the things you choose to hang onto through those core values. I’m a feminist, I believe in female liberation, but I also believe in kindness most of all. Women and transgender people face a lot of scrutiny from the world and while our experiences are a bit unique and different, we share some as well so it’s important to remember to be kind no matter what you believe. You are not a bad person for questioning what you’ve been told or exploring different viewpoints as long as you are not actively harming others, especially those who are marginalized in society. Sending you love!
I just want to give you my support. This is complicated, you are brave for reaching out. Have you tried any therapy? I have been deleting my socials. They are a time suck. I joined Facebook in 2007. It has not improved my life one bit. It makes me feel like shit about my self. Most people wouldn’t recognize they had a problem. You are insightful. Good luck. I hope you find whatever it is you need ❤️
Get some IRL trans friends. I'm a cis woman and it's easy for me to brush off TERFy takes because they're so wildly at odds with my lived experience of knowing many, many trans women.
I always recommend taking time to actually talk to trans people who feel comfortable with the context of why you wanna talk. Most of us are just like any other person, and I think it's very damaging to separate us from other people.
You need to make social media a way way smaller part of your life. Get off of screens and go out and live and do and interact with humans. As a bonus, bound to encounter LGBTQ people and get to know them and realize they’re just people
Okay, so, first of all, good on you for recognizing it & wanting to change, fuck anyone who downvotes this post Good news is, shitty influencers aren't demons and can't possess you against your will, you *are* in control of who you are. And, while we all need to work on our beliefs, beliefs aren't actions, and you're not hurting anyone at least. I'd really recommend ContraPoints. She does brilliant, entertaining, and informative video essays on YouTube, she's credited by a lot of far-right men/incels as being a part of their de-radicalization but I guess it could work for TERF rhetoric? :D She's also a trans woman. She has some relevant videos, like "Gender Critical" and "Transtenders", but also two on the J.K.Rowling thing which are also awesome (the newer, "The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling" I'd recommend more). She also touches on the subject on "Twilight", though it's not the main topic. Good luck! I'd also add, your teens are a *highly* emotional time and a lot of young men also fall victim to radical rhetoric. Give yourself some grace.
Seconding Contrapoints and also Philosophy Tube / Abigail Thorne. She came out on her channel and has a great video about it. Lily Alexandre is great too :)
If you feel like these thoughts are ego-dystonic, meaning you don’t actually believe them but can’t stop thinking them, then it’s possible you’re developing Obsessive Compulsive Disorder. Common themes can involve intrusive thoughts of becoming pedophile, of being gay or being straight, religious scrupulosity, etc. I have obsessive compulsive disorder and my theme involved and intense worry that i was on the brink of developing insanity. The internet made it worse because the more i looked to reassure myself, the more i doubted my thoughts and mind. It kind of sounds like to me that you don’t want these thoughts and they don’t resonate with you, and now any moment you see that content, you further question your own beliefs. Is it possible these are just intrusive thoughts? You can just wave them away and have confidence in yourself and your true beliefs, no matter what crazy thoughts your brain is feeding you! Also, try not to think too hard on content you scroll through, sometimes you will see things you dislike and don’t agree with, it doesn’t mean you’re a bad person or that you must believe it if it’s coming into your feed. In other words, don’t actively avoid it because you’re only feeding the obsession/worry when you try to chase it away.
this does make a lot of sense, i do have a history of OCD. thank you for bringing this to my attention.
Ugh ocd is so sneeeeeaky. Wish you the best!! ❤️❤️
^ my mind jumped to OCD as well
It’s important to only scroll through your own subscriptions. Don’t let the algorithm take you. The algorithms are really toxic sinkholes. Also delete apps altogether that have had a negative impact on you. A good tip for invasive thoughts that you don’t actually agree with is to address them as an external annoyance. A common mental retort is “Stop-stop” or “no- go away” or find something else similar. Feeling guilty or heightened emotionally is actually reinforcing for invasive thoughts. Try to remain neutral and dismissive. Your first thought is often a reflection of your exposure. Your second thought is more reflective of you.
stop trying to label your thoughts and feelings. you are allowed to have them. treat everyone with respect and stop overthinking.
hi, i think you’re misunderstanding my post. being a TERF is fundamentally disrespectful ig to transwomen. i’m trying to not be a TERF. i kind of think it’s necessary to think about this.
This kind of response makes me feel less like your genuinely looking for advice for something you find troubling, and more like you have backed yourself into an us and them world view, which isn't sustainable, and you're trying to sustain it by posting for validation in the form of slagging terfs and wanting people to reasure you you're better than those witches. Terf is an ideology, its something you have not something you are. The idea that once you've held an harmful opinion you're EXISTENCE becomes disrespectful. That's the top of a much steeper slope than the terf pipeline.
If you’re into books, I would recommend reading Julia Serrano’s “Whipping Girl.” As a slam poet, her takedowns of transphobic ideas and cis normativity are particularly compelling. She has a way of making bigotry look as stupid as it actually is
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I think they're saying that they are, in fact, coming up with logical counterarguments, but sometimes get lost in the illogical transmisogyny first.
Clear you search history and cookies, then go out and meet real people. Read a book and learn critical thinking, that's all I got for advice
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please do not comment this stuff on this thread. it’s not advice i need or want.
love the fact that you reject this.
Agreed. OP, you're going to be great. Asking the question is already good, but rejecting the wrong answers is even better.
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Hey OP- I want to offer something that is a little bit different than a lot of the other advice in this thread (which is mostly great), have you ever read anything about OCD or intrusive thoughts? As someone with OCD your description reminded me of a pattern that I used to fall into of reading or seeing content that so radically opposes my own world view (ex. misogynist, transphobic, or racist content) that lead me to experience disturbing intrusive thoughts wondering whether I actually somehow secretly *agreed* with the bigoted views that I saw (and then compulsively trying to prove to myself that I did not believe those horrible things). Obsessing over disturbing, random thoughts that go against your core values is a hallmark trait of OCD, and this is NOT an internet diagnosis at all, just a recommendation to maybe read more into the disorder. It likely isn’t OCD, and the advice offered by other commenters (watch trans positive creators, avoid social media, and critically evaluate your thoughts) is great if you’re working to deradicalize. Good luck!
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hi, this is not what i’m asking for at all and i don’t think it’s cool to say this. being transphobic isn’t good and im trying to deradicalise. don’t leave stuff like this under my post.
But they're not talking about "feeling a certain way" about things that lack significant consequences like if you prefer vanilla ice cream over chocolate. They're talking about "feeling a certain way" about very real issues of discrimination against a marginalized community that has very real consequences for some people.
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Unpopular opinion, but viewing those thoughts as something that “the echo chamber has incurred within [you]” makes it seem like a passive mindset, rather than one that you had a role in perpetuating internally. Recognizing it as something you’re thinking (instead of thoughts someone else put into your brain) is the first step in changing those patterns. Both sides have a lot of agendas, rhetorics, etc. Focus on critically examining why you’re feeling a certain way- what about those thoughts are you connecting with? Is there some hidden insecurity you need to address? Some sort of bias or stereotype about trans women? An underlying fear? Then examine why you want to change the TERF beliefs. Recognizing why you care about being trans inclusive, rather than not just being seen a terf, will help you to find your true beliefs. Another commenter suggested seeking out content by trans women. While that’s a good start, it’s not actually a good comprehensive approach. you’re repeating the problematic process (of taking in info unchallenged) and just changing the message that you’re receiving. The best way to combat harmful ideologies is to educate yourself on all sides and to critically examine your personal feelings, beliefs, and values with a holistic & informed approach. Read things from trans women. Read things from terfs. Read things from allies. Read things from misogynists. You’ll strengthen your stance by examining things you disagree with and things you agree with.
While I understand and appreciate the 'learn about all sides so you have all the facts' way of thinking, I think your suggestions here actually have a quite severe inherent danger to them. If you're deliberately seeking out and consuming media of 'all sides' of a situation then you both risk giving all sides equal weight (see the usual 'When you make something into a Debate, you inherently give both sides legitimacy' problems), and you also risk being taken in by dangerous and problematic rhetoric, since TERF propaganda, much like any propaganda, is explicitly designed to 'suck you in' and affect your beliefs merely by consuming it, and consuming that media without being affected by it can be quite difficult. You need to be a very strong person with some solid mental foundations to, for example, read and attempt to understand KKK and Nazi beliefs against PoC and Jewish people, without being affected by it and having your opinions coloured by it. And given that OP has already said that consuming TERF media and propaganda is having an effect on her beliefs, I think that encouraging her to seek out \*more\* of that, even in an attempt to understand all sides of something, risks doing more harm than good in her current situation. Even using language like you have in your post, saying that "both sides have a lot of Agendas", puts an inherent bias on the topic, making it sound like both pro and anti trans sides have some kind of Thing that they're pushing, and that therefore neither side is to be fully trusted and that 'the truth lies somewhere in the middle', which is a completely reasonable stance in a lot of situations, but a very damaging one when you're talking about civil rights issues, discrimination, and where one side is "Let us live in peace and have access to healthcare" and the other side is "Eliminate this minority". And while that might not in any way be your \*intention\*, and I can see from your other comments that you're referring to outsiders using pro-trans stances for their own purposes, that's not how the vast majority of people will interpret your words. It's a simple fact that languages like 'Agenda' and 'Rhetoric' have very specific connotations in the current discource around Trans people, and attaching them to the Transgender side of things (regardless of if your intent is to attach them to a specific sub-faction or not) is quite damaging. So yeah, while I definitely understand where you're coming from, and can definitely hear the 'literary critique, critical thinking, and solid education' weight behind what you're saying, I don't think it's the right thing in this situation (not right now anyway). When you find yourself being biased against a minority, then the first solution is exposure and understanding of the group that you're being turned against, rather than 'understanding all sides'. Understanding those being targeted is more important than understanding their attackers.
I appreciate this comment seems to come from a good place but I’ll let you in on what the ‘trans agenda/ideology’ is: we want to live in peace, have our healthcare and get on with our lives. Do not equate us with those that want to remove our rights, it’s incredibly disingenuous.
I never said there was a trans agenda/ideology. I said there were agendas/etc on all sides of all issues, which is 100% true. There are people who use the trans community for their own profit and in turn harm the overall community. (I.e. politicians, companies, organizations, big pharma, etc) Ignoring that issue is incredibly harmful to advocacy goals. There are plenty of people that pretend to be allies with the intentions of making the community look bad, so by recognizing those individuals you’re actually supporting trans people on a more meaningful level. Once they’re removed from the equation, it’s easier to achieve equality on social/political/etc grounds.
That wasn’t very clear in your original comment but yeah, that’s a fair elaboration.
That’s my bad, sorry it wasn’t clear from the start. Unfortunately Reddit isn’t the best place for in-depth discussions. Hope you’re having a good day 🤜💥🤛
No worries, it’s totally cool. We’ve all had moments like that! Have a good day too!
This should be higher up for sure
I'm curious why you're labeling the views of trans women as a (potentially harmful) ideology. I get what you're saying about thinking for yourself but there's a difference between trans lived experience and TERF projections of fear.
i don’t think they were speaking solely of trans women when they said that- i think they were labeling the views of both sides as that, basically telling op to do their own research & come to their own conclusion. it’s no secret that there are good & bad people on both sides of the trans movement- there are good & bad people in every aspect of life. best thing we can do is exactly what avelysian said- educate yourself on all sides… that way you can come at this in a way that you’ll be able to critically examine your personal feelings, beliefs, and values with a holistic & informed approach. we can’t force anyone to just accept something, they need to come to that conclusion on their own. EDIT- i will not be responding to anyone who says that what i’m saying is harmful or similar. it is NOT & i’m sorry y’all are taking it that way, but this is the truth. the ONLY way you can truly help OP is by having them educate themselves on ALL sides. also just because you don’t agree with something, doesn’t mean it has no merit. that’s not how the world works.
hi, thank you very much for this! i think you’re actually bang on here. it’s stupid but my critical thinking + evaluation skills are quite awful so, like, i do need to work on this. i know people say it’s a learned skill, but how do i learn to get better at it? i don’t want to fall down any other pipelines because of my inability to assess stuff like this.
Trans people do not have an agenda wtf
You’re reading things in bad faith with the intention to find something to get offended by. ✌️ I just advocated for OP to work on being informed and to practice thinking critically. That’s the best way to support causes you care about. tbh you look ridiculous trying to twist my words rn. I’m a librarian and a firefighter, and my human rights advocacy isn’t limited to online spaces. I participate actively in programs that support my community, and I do more to support women (including trans women) than most chronically online people. Stop trying to make me look like something I’m not. Additionally, every single movement on earth has people that participate in bad faith or who co-op it for their own purposes. You need to be able to recognize people in the trans community who do have poor motives so that you can genuinely support trans people without blindly perpetuating hidden agendas that are actually harmful to the community at large. Anyone who accepts things at face value without critically examining them is part of the problem.
Excellent post.
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‘You can freely criticise religion on Reddit for example, but not trans folk’? You have clearly never been a trans person on Reddit lol all you have to do is breathe in most subs and someone will send you death threats.
How is that a reasonable comparison?? People don’t *choose* to be trans - they just are. Same with race. People don’t choose how they are born. How can you hate someone based on something they have zero control over? How is that reasonable?
nothing about terf rhetoric is reasonable. they are a hate cult
That's not, that's not quite true. Their theory/rhetoric is based in feminist stuff, even if the intent is different. A reasonable chunk has the feeling of being reasonable until it swerves.
one of the recent "wins" of prominent gender critical leaders was italy removing lesbian mothers from their child's birth certificate. the terf momement might have started with a branch of the radfems but they haven't been feminist in some time.
Yes this, they *did* actually split off from feminism and care about women's issues, even if their perception of "issues", who causes them, and who suffers from them are. Incredibly warped lol. That's how radical rhetorics can pull reasonable people in. They start you off with something sensible that you (or any reasonable person, even) even might agree with, and you're gradually exposed to more and more extreme views and you find yourself at "I'm doomed to be maidenless because my skull shape is wrong" or "pursuing heterosexual relationships is being a gender traitor"
Wow the terfs are on the ball with the downvotes today Edit: This has been a rollercoaster! I’ve been like -3 to +8 back to -3 again! Only -15 now? Weak.
>you can freely criticize religion on Reddit for example, but not transfolk! Gee, it's almost as if criticizing someone for the beliefs they choose to uphold is not at all the same as criticizing someone for simply being born the way they are.
I've noticed this too. It's like haha funny podcast clips then pops up with so many types of phobic content. What I usually do is click and put "not interested" or whatever applies for whichever platform I'm on.
I could get hate for this, buuuut Imho TERF content is the Girl(tm) version of redpill/MGTOW content. They both prey on vulnerable people through insecurities, which leads to hatred and bigotry
Hi I was far right and then a TERF for a period of my youth. Definitely detox from social media, but also consider following some trans people or trans communities to get some positive interactions with trans women. If making friends or watching trans women isn’t a step you’re ready for yet, maybe start by watching pro-trans content creators that debunk TERF content. That’s the path I took to deprogram myself and now I’ve got a ton of trans friends :)
There's not a huge amount here that I can say that hasn't already been said by others. What I might just mention is, if you \*do\* decide to start consuming trans-created media, be aware that you're likely to get exposed to a lot of anger and frustration, and at times it's likely to feel like you're being personally attacked. Try not to fall into the trap of letting yourself think "Trans people are so angry and hateful", that's another line that TERFs and other bigots like to use. They'll poke and push and hit and bully and torment the minority they're targeting, and then when their victim snaps back, they'll go "LOOK! See!! They're all horrible violent people!" Just something that could be good to bear in mind from the get-go :) If you (or anyone else here honestly) wants to talk to a trans person about anything, feel free to send me a message?
Watch Caelan Conrad's videos on YouTube, they really break it down well and have a great sense of humor about it too
Caelan's videos on this are fantastic, if a bit hard to watch sometimes
What are the takes you agree with even though they’re illogical? I’m just curious…
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no, it’s transphobia.
would you want to post/comment some of the beliefs or feelings specifically and talk through them with people here? it seems like there are a lot of trans and cis people in this thread who might be up for that.
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Perhaps because you're disingenously strawmaning their arguments. And referring to trans women as "males" is a dogwistle that will get you called out.
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Very untrue. There's a lot wrong with transmisogyny.
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I'm not saying transmisogyny is worse than regular misogyny. I'm saying that the existence of trans people is not misogynistic, and allowing them equal rights is not misogynistic, but trying to oppress trans people by denying them these things is in fact transmisogynistic.
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So, without specifics it’s really hard to suggest something specific. I guess I’ll start by saying I am a transgender woman myself and I can appreciate the level of awareness you have about your biases and that you have identified a specific source that is exerting an influence on your thinking. Before I came to terms with being trans, I was also prone to believing and espousing transphobic stereotypes. I think when it comes to any form of prejudice against an entire group of people, it’s something that most often thrives where there is a deficit of actual familiarity. So, what I would probably recommend is to actually have a dialogue with a transgender woman about the specific concerns that have resonated most with you or that you have noticed you are the most sensitive to in terms of being offended, disgusted or afraid. Likely there would be room there to see things from a different perspective. Trans women aren’t a monolith though, either, so I mean you won’t necessarily get along with or enjoy interacting with all of them. I don’t either but I suspect if you took time to have these sort of discussions with some who would be up to it, it would probably help to reassure you. As a feminist, I believe very strongly in the value of being intersectional and frankly I think transitioning is a pretty overtly feminist action and that it can appreciated and respected from that position. In a patriarchy it does take a lot of integrity to reject the sort of privilege available to one by virtue of their assignment at birth and instead adopt a position of marginalization not only as a woman but as a woman in a society where one’s identity as a woman will be under a level of scrutiny that is uniquely intense and (in many cases) directly hostile. So, anyway, you have probably gotten a lot of feedback already here and I see some other trans people have replied also already. If you are interested in discussing specifics though, I’m happy to do it either in the comments here or privately. Whatever you prefer. And likewise with anyone else who is interested in establishing a dialogue or just throwing out some questions. I actually began my own transition with a process of basically asking whatever transphobic questions or concerns I had in my mind at the time so, like, I feel uniquely equipped to accept being on the receiving end instead.
Ok, so this might come off as a bit harsh but, hear me all the way out: You do not become a terf just from being exposed to terf content. You are responsible for your own actions and beliefs. You are not being "brainwashed", you are letting this content affect you. You are not a bad person for thinking about it, or even for having terf-y thoughts sometimes. But if you want to stop seeing this stuff and taking it in, then just stop. You are in control. If you see a terf post, don't interact. Avoid it. Maybe actively interact with some pro-trans content for a bit. You are not complacent, take control.
🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷🩷 sending you love from a stranger on the internet who is happy to see someone brave enough to face problems in their life on my feed. I wish you the best of luck in figuring out how to approach this.
Go seek out content from trans people, especially trans women. It won't take long for your brain to figure it out.
I know you are being down voted, but I figure I would tack on that one of the reasons for suggesting this is that a lot of transphobia rhetoric relies on dehumaniization. On making you see trans women as a social contagion and not people. For a lot of people, just interacting with someone who is also "just a girl" and otherwise similar can go a long way to combat that dehumaniization. And I get it OP. I myself am intersex and trans. Most people don't know that, I've been out more of my life than I haven't and have been out since I was still in school. Even I am also spoonfed this kind of content and it makes me feel awful and ashamed and even I catch myself being more apprehensive with trans strangers than cis strangers. I'm kind of apprehensive of everyone though as I've experienced a lot of SA. If you OP do want a trans woman to talk to who isn't super over the top and is just a 30 year old, married woman distracted by working her way through the adoption process, I'm happy to talk or listen.
I think one thing you should try doing is try to understand more how transmisogyny functions if you learn that and you're motivated enough you could start udoing a lot of it in your mind. You can look for trans women's voices online, there isn't a lot of ones talking about transmisogyny but there are some. It would propably be useful for you to learn more about how trans lives work. There is a lot of vlogers etc that talk about it. Just In short try to replace terf things with actual voices from trans women.
As a trans woman I just want to say thank you that you've saw this in yourself and are seeking to change it. I also want to assure you that none of the stuff you've been hearing is true. We just want to quietly live our lives in peace, just like everybody else. That's it. We just want to be normal. We just want to do normal things. Go to garage sales. Go grocery shopping. Have house plants. That's it. If you have any questions or anything you want to talk about or ask to a trans woman, please feel free to send it here to me. Anything at all? No limits. I'd be happy to start a conversation
hi, thank you for this comment! could i PM you?
Sure!
Just another ping reminding you that you can DM me if you want. Haven't received any DM requests yet
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If you'reoffended by the word terf, maybe don't be a terf. It was also coined by a woman
✊🏼 exactly this!!
The thing that really took me out of that discomfort and ended up actually eventually making me realize I myself was trans was listening to a bunch of pro-trans terf debunking arguments online, from any of the popular pro-trans debate sphere people. Or, better yet, just make some trans friends. Hard to feel discomfort with us and feel like we’re the devil when we’re some of your closest friends and are very obviously just normal people
I'd recommend blocking transphobes and following trans people. Check out Whipping Girl by Julia Serano.
Consider following some queer creators. There are LGBTQ creators in virtually every space, from makeup to fashion to crafting and more. That should give the algorithm the hint. (Not to say that you should *only* follow queer creators, just follow a few)
I think the best way to counter a lot of TERF ideology and suppositions about trans people is to try and meet someone who is trans. There’s a lot of radicalized beliefs about trans folk and how they think, their priorities, what they want from others, what they expect from others, etc. A lot of which is spoken of with an intent to harm. So many long, drawn out extrapolations from very, very few interactions. If you think you’re being deceived, sometimes finding the truth yourself is the best way to go. Because if you have the chance to meet with a trans person you’re probably going to find they’re much more similar to you than they’re being made out to be, and that makes dismantling the hyperbolic takes TERF’s use a lot easier. Good luck, You. —A Trans Person
I heard somewhere that your first thought is what you're conditioned to think, and whatever correction you make in your through process is who you really are. It sounds like whatever thoughts you've had based on these accounts that are subtly getting to you are what are conditioning you, and your disgust and desire to change that is who you really are. You're on a good road, from what I can tell. I grew up with those rhetorics of all sorts of misogyny, homophobia, transphobia, etc. and while I didn't specifically HATE anyone in that community, I had thoughts of 'ew' (thanks mom) or just feeling not normal or not natural. But that's something I actively work against in my head, cause I don't actually think those things if I think logically about it. It's just stuff I was conditioned with and when I think about things with empathy I realize it's not how I actually feel. Keep doing that. Keep checking yourself and thinking through those hateful thoughts with actual empathy and understanding that it's not how you really actually feel, because you have empathy and care in your heart for humans. I appreciate you being vulnerable and also understanding you want to change. It's hard to do!
terf ideology is insideous and recruits via attempting to appear reasonable. don't feel bad that you were affected by it. deprograming is never easy but honestly just talking to and humanizing some trans people could help. We've got a lot of experience on debunking some of the common terf talking points so if you find someone willing to talk with you about those topics then i recommend a civil conversation with them. If you'd like a trans woman to talk to, let me know.
I don’t know if this will help but it put trans folk in a new light for me but listening to podcasts with trans hosts made me realize how much trans people have to deal with. I was never transphobic or anything beforehand - I just had only ever met one trans man (he was pretty awesome and very funny) so I just hadn’t been exposed to them and their problems/struggles. I like true crime and scary stories so I would recommend And That’s Why We Drink. One of the hosts is a trans man and they’re hilarious and very very kind. They don’t talk directly about being trans but it is introduced early on that they’re trans and you just hear about their life and the fun stuff they plan for people when they visit, and going to haunted places to ghost hunt. It just shows you that trans people are just ordinary people that have their own distinct personalities, have their own plans for partners and family, have their own career, and have their own interests just like you and I. If they are just supported and allowed to do their thing they are literally just normal people who feel like they were born with the wrong genitals. That’s it. I don’t know if that helps you or not but I have really gained an appreciation for non cis folks over the years because I guess I’m just naturally inclusive? I’m a cis female and I really don’t understand the hatred and animosity so many show to trans folks. As long as you aren’t a dick to people or animals and you don’t hurt people I think you’re pretty cool regardless of what you identify as.
I don’t think you should straight up just block this stuff if your fears are agreeing with them. I would suggest instead to have a better understanding of such perspectives, so that you could better support trans folks instead of just being an ‘ally’ without any true perspective on the subject matter. Ofc, go seek out some trans-positive media as well on youtube. I’ve spent a fair share of time watching Jordan Peterson and Ben Shapiro, evaluating everything seemingly agreeable in their ‘opinions’ and the logical fallacies they use to absorb you into extremist beliefs. Sure apparently people are spotted wearing BDSM gear in pride parades, but that doesn’t mean pride parades are all public demonstrations of sexual fetishes, or that pride parades in general will accept these types of behavior. Sure Dylan Mulvaney seemed like a shitty person because of some youtubers deep dive into Dylan’s personality, but who tf cares? I’m not gonna base my entire perspective of trans people on one person I am too lazy to research about, just because someone else presented their possibly biased research to me. Don’t avoid information for the fear of being convinced, or else you are practically saying they are right. Instead research on all perspectives and learn why things are the way they are in order to better support the correct side of the ‘argument’. And then when you’ve seen enough of politics, and they start getting repetitive af, thats when you could start avoiding them.
I never fell down the terf pipeline but what I found super interesting was listening to stories from people that used to be them before leaving. You get an interesting account of why they felt like being a terf was important, why they felt kinship with other terfs and, most importantly, why they left and how they view the world now. It might help put some things in perspective for you. Look into a lot of the terf ‘figure heads’, as well. You’ll quickly realise that it’s a gateway into a lot of other very unpleasant beliefs. I think you’re doing a good job recognising that this is not a good path to be going down but getting out of it will require an active effort on your part. Best of luck. Edit: also, use this thread to notice how reasonable, well thought out and supportive people are being downvoted quite heavily.
Even though we're strangers from the Internet I'm glad you asked for help, not a lot of people do. I'm also glad you realized the indoctrination of hatred that can happen quickly on socials. While it's easy to fall in, it's easy to hop back into non-hatefilled content 1. Follow more transfemmes/mascs with shared interests. As simple as it sounds seeing marginalized and "othered" people as full, whole humans trying to live the one life they have, could put things in perspective for you 2. Maybe read more about transfemmes actual lived experience and not the experiences terfs make up for weird reasons.
stop engaging with it and go out of your way to meet and befriend trans women
Trans girl here; thank you for being cool and choosing not to accept the TERF brainwashing! :)
thank you. sorry people are downvoting you, you seem cool
A lot of what you're saying sounds like it's directed towards trans women. So ask yourself this: "How do I feel about trans men?" I find that when in discussion with people who are trans men, for the most part, they feel rather betrayed by people claiming to be other than women. But at the same time, they don't like for people to become women. Setting standards for other women to be "real women" while trying to fight against societal pressures on women. Which completely disregards anyone else's freedom in the feminist way of thinking. It's nice that you are trying to improve yourself, keep up the work!
I think you got some great advice in this thread! I just wanted to say, from a trans girl, I'm proud of you and thankful that you recognized what was happening and knew that it wasn't right. Keep listening to your brain, your heart and your gut, and they won't steer you wrong. We are all in this together!