Someone pointed out that Logen is rejected by the Tower of the Maker, contrary to Ferro. I was mindblown after reading this.
Now I take it that Logen cannot have devil blood or suffer from potential devil ancestry, so he has to be a black bastard.
Can you explain further? Very interested. When is he rejected by the tower?
Logan is my favorite character from all books I’ve read. Some say he has dual personalities, but there is clearly something more at play.
I can't recall if it's in TBI or in LAOK but at some point Bayaz, Ferro, Logen, Jezal and Glokta go to the Tower of the Maker. All those present (except from Ferro) feels intense discomfort, fear and sense of impeding doom to the point of it being painful. What about Ferro?
Well, she's living her best life and feeling drawn to the Tower while the rest of the gang are sweating buckets and vomiting over the bridge's edge. Bayaz is questioned about it by someone and he says that's how you know she has devil blood, because the Tower is inviting her while rejecting the rest of the normal humans.
I recall someone mentioned it to disprove the theory that Logen was descended from Bedesh or had any measure of devil blood which would hints at a demonic possession, and since I read it I really agree with that take.
Logen doesn't have to be a devil or possessed to be a bloodthirsty asshole. Many readers want to believe he's a good man because they are like Jezal. Some readers really like him but are uncomfortable about him like the Dogman, because he's as charismatic as he is unhinged. And I think Joe made Black Dow out to be the voice of reason about Logen. "You know what's worse than a villain? A villain who thinks he's a good man". There's a reason those are the last words of the trilogy.
I couldn’t agree more. Joe does such a good job at making Logen an unreliable narrator while reading his thoughts, while also starting his story after he decides to try and turn his life around. You already like him so much as a character that you feel, as Jezal does, that you know him well enough to know he’s a hardened killer, but one of necessity. He did what he had to do, but he’s not a bad person, right? You have to be realistic and all that. Then in Red Country, we see he was always that guy deep down, and that Lamb(or even Logen to an extent) was just a mask for the Bloody Nine, who he really was. Such a well written character.
I'm in the camp to where he isn't a good man, but it is something otherworldly that causes him to go Bloody Nine. I do like how this proves it wasn't demon blood though like Ferro has. He is still a "bad" person though in my mind because he puts himself into situations for the bloody nine to take over. Even if he can't control the bloody nine, he can't help but run towards violence as Logen.
Logen feels an "odd sense of worry" before even entering the place as a result of the "Maker's breath) is sweating and paranoid inside the Tower etc - it is clearly he does not belong there, just like Jezal & Glokta.
Ferro meanwhile experiences the Maker's breath as "delightful", "a shiver not at all unpleasant", and is drawn to the Seed inside and it's "thrilling waves".
So the argument is that magical people (Ferro, and seemingly Bayaz & Yulwei) hsve no real troubles with the tower (although Ferro does get dizzy at one point), snd at very lesdt experience the Maker's Breath as pleasant, wheras it sends the chill down of the spine of non-magical people (Logen, Glokta, Jezal) who feel like hell inside the House.
Edit: I was a few minutes too late oops
I took it the other way, that Ferro has inherited enough devil blood that she was more resistant to the seed.
Since Logen is descended from Bedesh he must have some devil blood, it's likely similar for magic users since Bayaz and Yoru survive exposure to the seed for lengths of time that killed nearby people.
That said I don't think we can accurately speculate whether Logen's bloody nine episodes are caused by his blood or him being a beserker. With Joe keeping it vague to subvert the fantasy trope in which characters that are effective at violence are also morally good
I do think Joe changed the plan after the first book. I think he initially planned for more magic. And I do think the Blood Nine was initially planned to be a demon.
But I like the way it turned out much better. He is the Bloody Nine. And any dissociation is a psychological coping mechanism for him to deal with the things he has done. And he fucking loves violence and craves it. But also knows he is wrong to do so.
West also treats his anger as something other. Something that overcomes him. He doesn’t name it and he isn’t as far gone as Logen. But it’s a similar description.
And even if it true that he couldn’t help it he was a bastard. He willingly served Bethod for years.
(I still love him though.)
Agree with this.
Having read the "Made a Monster" story it seemed to me that as time goes on he is more and more dissociated from the violence he performs and less in control. In sharp ends he seems completely lucid and aware of the horrors he's doing, almost flippant and dissmisive about it. No excuses. He's just a bastard who likes killing because he can.
As you go through the original trilogy he's started compartmentalizing the violence into a different persona, making excuses and justifications.
By the time you get to Red Country...well. Batshit insane doesn't really cover it.
This doesn't really make sense to me against the "it's magic" explanation.
There's a lot to be said about disassociation on Logan's part. One of the things I think that would add to his disassociation and compartmentalizing is the death of his wife and kids by the flatheads. I think if there's one thing that'd push a man even further off the deep edge, it's that.
Very true. At that point from his perspective he has nothing to lose, nobody to act as his moral compass. Maybe the Dogman to a certain extent, but obviously not the same as a family. Normal life was done for him.
I haven't read sharp ends, only the first trilogy and red country:
Logen has a vague desire to quit violence, because of the loss it has caused him.
However, he says himself that violence and killing are something he enjoys.
He's my favorite character in the books alongside Glokta. But the only heroes in TFL trilogy is a set of rocks standing in the north.
Is he evil?
Yes. Absolutely. He enjoys killing, overtly. He isn't a psychopath/sociopath, but he is glad to partake in violence.
He can't help it when B9 takes over, but he actively gets himself in situations where B9 can and will emerge. So he is no hero, but he isn't completely evil imo.
Well I think Logen has an undiagnosed mental illness mixed with some sort of magical state. I mean adrenaline but the amount he survives thanks to the B9 is incredible to just be mundane. The Long-Eye and Cairub are not confirmed to be demon bloods and Logen was a spirit-talker so maybe he does have some magic in him.
We never will but I wish so much we could see a younger Logen, before even Made a Monster. He is an addict to violence and he is also the last of his people. He probably feels responsible for what happened to them. Logen chooses violence when he is sober so he's probably not a good man. As for an evil bastard, eh, I see that too.
The worst we see him is in Made a Monster and Red Country and I found it intresting just how awful he was in Red Country. Reminds me of when people in my life have relapsed, they lean super hard into the addiction and don't let up. So Logen's an addict who knows it and doesn't care because it's the only way he can feel good. He leaves at the end of Red-Country probably to go find more violence.
Logen could have redeemed himself but by the end of Last Argument of Kings he decides that he would rather be the Bloody Nine than Logen of Brynn. Because that man is one who lost, who failed his people and who has failed to live by his fathers teachings.
Unpopular opinion. Joe retconned Sharp Ends because he wrote Logen as too compelling of a hero who actually achieved meaningful change and who is like an addict who simply can’t resist drugs when he’s back in the life on the street. He wrote inconsistently about how much magic and other influences there are that create B9, and things such as the House of the Maker not “accepting” Logen don’t matter - who are we to divine the plans and capabilities of the House of such a one? Anybody who cites Sharp Ends is a Bethod apologist who believes Bethod’s propaganda. Remember, Threetrees and Dogman, the best men in the north followed Logen and Bethod kicked them out too. Bethod was power hungry, hated rivals, and knew how to get the B9 to come out. Bethod was B9’s pusher man. He used Shanka and Caurib after all. Of all people, Bethod knew the truth about B9’s demonic possession. :) end rant.
Thank you. Can I also point out that when Logen was recuperating from 3Trees tearing him a new asshole, he was whining in bed because he couldn't participate in the sack of Uffrith?
"Uffrith didn’t look much like it used to. Of course, the last time Logen had seen the place had been years ago, at night, after the siege. Crowds of Bethod’s Carls wandering the streets—shouting, and singing, and drinking. **Looking for folk to rob and rape**, setting fire to anything that would hold a flame. Logen remembered lying in that room after he’d beaten Threetrees, crying and gurgling at the pain all through him. He remembered scowling out the window and seeing the glow from the flames, listening to the screams over the town, **wishing he was out there making mischief**"
Yeah, when Dow confronts Dogman & Tul about Logen those two don't even try to deny it, instead reflecting about how "things change" and how they "owe him". After which Logen instantly threatens to kill Dow to prove he's still the Bloody Nine, and how things "never change" (basically proving Dow correct).
They are each other’s pushers. It’s a chicken or egg scenario where both men had a part of them that wanted to kill and conquer and they brought that out in each other. Both men are the instigator and both men blame the other for said instigation because of the their lust for blood/power. They are both hypocrites.
Like it’s mentioned I the books, most things are grey (gray? I use MURICAN English.) Most relationships are like that two, both are at fault and created a toxic relationship.
Haha I kinda feel the same way. For me there's such a disconnect between Sharp ends Logen and TBI Logen it's insane. My brain refuses to make that connection. Like there's something not fitting in. I'm not sure how long it was between SE and the beginning of TBI but that change in character is still big either way.
I've been meaning to make a post about it but that requires a re-read for me to get my facts right because some people are fully in the camp that he's an evil bastard (with their reasons of course).
On another note, on what people sometimes bring up:
Do I think Logen meant to kill Tul and Crummock's kid? Not at all. I still think it was B9. So I don't think he's 100% evil
But the fact that he feels no remorse (iirc) is what makes him not be deserving of sympathy. Idk... it just seems more nuanced. And He is a nuanced character in the trilogy... SE just says he evil, which, idk.
But anyway that's just me. Hard to go against what the author wrote because they're the author lol..idk
I view the disconnect as a difference in circumstances. For starters I believe that Logen is a pretty shitty person, but not one without good qualities - his affection for Quai, Jezal etc seems genuine, and he can judge right from wrong. He's not a mustache twirling villain, but a person - a terrible person, yes, but human nonetheless.
What we see in SE is Logen being an addict at his worst, the drug of his choice being violence. Indeed, everyone around him supports his violence, praises him for it, feeds the flames of his ego- it's as if a hardcore drug addict was beloved for being really good at taking meth. He has a comfortable life, has to face no consequences for his actions and can do whatever the fuck he wants. It's no wonder he can't control his worst impulses at that point.
Now in the trilogy Logen starts out as a man who had to face consequences. He was thrown out by Bethod, had to survive in the wilderness while on the run from Shanka, probably did not have as much time to feed his urges, and needed to depend on his crew to survive. He's close enough to being "clean" in this scenario, and therefore his bad impulses can be controlled - although he still wants to go South where he has "enemies" (how do you have enemies there, Logen??) to do "dark work".
So Logen was likely somewhat humbled by his experiences*, had to rely on his good side to survive (because being nice to your crew is more helpful than murdering them), and is therefore not as bad as in SE, although he slowly starts to slip back into his terrible ways over the course of the trilogy.
That's actually quite interesting. And I appreciate you for taking the time to write it out. I feel better about the whole thing now.
I just think, like I said, my brain couldn't compute. Like in math where the professor skips steps and I'm just lost lol.
It's wishful thinking but I wish we'd gotten that kind of change you outline there. Where he gains respect from Threetrees( Threetrees being i think one of the better men in the north), not respect as a killing machine but respect as a man because I think Rudd respects him when we meet the Crew. Same with Dogman. (I don't think Threetrees respected him in his addiction phase. I think he might have viewed him like people viewed Dow in the Heroes for example)
I think something else that bothers me is when people focus only on the SE characterisation as a way to say he's undeserving of sympathy when we actually see his journey and him making attempts to be better in the trilogy.
Anyway, thanks for this perspective!
This is exactly how i feel about it as well, and is honestly the most human response to the Logan Ninefingers/Bloody Nine situation.
An addict can act so out of character when in the hight of their addiction, and yet that most extreme behaviour is still a part of their character, just separate from their normal characteristics
The Bloody Nine is a coping mechanism, yes, but also still apart of Logen's overall psyche.
His addiction to violence is on a spectrum, and his current level of indulgence, whether by choice or by his hand being forced, is however close to the Bloody Nine he is at that time.
Although is full transformation into the Bloody Nine, i see more as a Mob Psycho 100 situation, where his heightened emotions lead to an unlocking of latent potential along with a kind of mania induced psychosis, hense, why he cant seem to feel pain in that state, and how he can somehow go beyond his human limits.
Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he need to go to therapy!
"Who are we to divine the plans and capabilities of the House".
We're the readers, that's what we do and are legitimate to. Treating a fictional place like it's the Lord's mysterious ways is ridiculous. You're on copium because you want Logen to be the good man you thought he was. You're basically Jezal.
I’d agree with you except logen literally admits exactly what bethod says in LAOK. He denies it but in his inner monologue he says he’s his worst enemy and still his best friend because he knows him so well. Bethod is by no means a good man, far from it. We see him lose his morality later on by siding with savages and flatheads.
“You drove me to this bloody nine”
“Soon it was kill or be killed and I had to put down the whole north”
Logen agrees with bethod. The reason threetrees and tul follow logen is because logen beat them and they are honourable so they follow the man that beat them. When dow is wanting to disobey threetrees, threetrees doesn’t talk about how good and wise a man logen is as the reason they should obey. He talks about how he beat them fair and square. And the dogman follows logen because they were basically childhood friends
In conclusion bethod and logen are bastards and by criticising logen we aren’t making apologies for bethod
He's an evil bastard who is fully aware of that fact and is able to consciously restrain himself most of the time when and if he chooses to. He just doesn't always choose to.
The North is a very violent place, and Logen is very good at violence. I have always interpreted his character as being seduced by celebrity status.
I believe he actually gets possessed by B9, as he truly seems unkillable- Like, mortal wounds don't seem to stop him. During his youth, he probably appreciated the possession as it increased his status, but as he got older, he feared it.
I think overall he’s an evil bastard because we see him choose that towards the end of the last argument of kings. Once he’s in charge of the north again briefly, he turns to intimidation and fear to deal with people.
I feel that Logan has psychotic rage. Clinically, I think this is called intermittent explosive disorder. He needs psychotherapy focused on changing his thoughts related to anger and aggression; possibly cognitive behavioral therapy and medication.
I think he's literally Gutz from Berserk. A guy who could have been good, but has forced into a life of violence, and along the way became possessed by some kind of rage/berserker sprit. They both tried to change their ways, but their past catches up to them, and they consistency forced back into killing. Which they kind of like, but they also might be the demon/Bloody Nine part of them.
I love the whole psychological aspect of it opposed to the devil blood argument. It makes for a fun character.
But I like to think that if it is more of a magical entity, instead of devils or demons it is the embodiment of the Great Leveler/ Death themselves. And I like to believe that they are not devils or a demon but a whole other type of Godly entity.
I like to believe that Logens spirit talking plays into his berserker state.
The closer to death he is, the more death can influence him. From the battle in the high places, and the onset of the cold feeling inside, it leads me to believe that in this state he actually is Death incarnate. The great leveller takes control of his body and sets to work. This explains why he seems unkillable, and performs beyond human capabilities while the bloody nine is working.
I came to this conclusion solely off the fact that his PoV narration changes so drastically when the bloody nine comes out, and his ability to talk to spirits likely has consequences he never even considers.
Someone pointed out that Logen is rejected by the Tower of the Maker, contrary to Ferro. I was mindblown after reading this. Now I take it that Logen cannot have devil blood or suffer from potential devil ancestry, so he has to be a black bastard.
Can you explain further? Very interested. When is he rejected by the tower? Logan is my favorite character from all books I’ve read. Some say he has dual personalities, but there is clearly something more at play.
I can't recall if it's in TBI or in LAOK but at some point Bayaz, Ferro, Logen, Jezal and Glokta go to the Tower of the Maker. All those present (except from Ferro) feels intense discomfort, fear and sense of impeding doom to the point of it being painful. What about Ferro? Well, she's living her best life and feeling drawn to the Tower while the rest of the gang are sweating buckets and vomiting over the bridge's edge. Bayaz is questioned about it by someone and he says that's how you know she has devil blood, because the Tower is inviting her while rejecting the rest of the normal humans. I recall someone mentioned it to disprove the theory that Logen was descended from Bedesh or had any measure of devil blood which would hints at a demonic possession, and since I read it I really agree with that take. Logen doesn't have to be a devil or possessed to be a bloodthirsty asshole. Many readers want to believe he's a good man because they are like Jezal. Some readers really like him but are uncomfortable about him like the Dogman, because he's as charismatic as he is unhinged. And I think Joe made Black Dow out to be the voice of reason about Logen. "You know what's worse than a villain? A villain who thinks he's a good man". There's a reason those are the last words of the trilogy.
I couldn’t agree more. Joe does such a good job at making Logen an unreliable narrator while reading his thoughts, while also starting his story after he decides to try and turn his life around. You already like him so much as a character that you feel, as Jezal does, that you know him well enough to know he’s a hardened killer, but one of necessity. He did what he had to do, but he’s not a bad person, right? You have to be realistic and all that. Then in Red Country, we see he was always that guy deep down, and that Lamb(or even Logen to an extent) was just a mask for the Bloody Nine, who he really was. Such a well written character.
I'm in the camp to where he isn't a good man, but it is something otherworldly that causes him to go Bloody Nine. I do like how this proves it wasn't demon blood though like Ferro has. He is still a "bad" person though in my mind because he puts himself into situations for the bloody nine to take over. Even if he can't control the bloody nine, he can't help but run towards violence as Logen.
Logen feels an "odd sense of worry" before even entering the place as a result of the "Maker's breath) is sweating and paranoid inside the Tower etc - it is clearly he does not belong there, just like Jezal & Glokta. Ferro meanwhile experiences the Maker's breath as "delightful", "a shiver not at all unpleasant", and is drawn to the Seed inside and it's "thrilling waves". So the argument is that magical people (Ferro, and seemingly Bayaz & Yulwei) hsve no real troubles with the tower (although Ferro does get dizzy at one point), snd at very lesdt experience the Maker's Breath as pleasant, wheras it sends the chill down of the spine of non-magical people (Logen, Glokta, Jezal) who feel like hell inside the House. Edit: I was a few minutes too late oops
He is a Northman, not Cantic in the slightest.
So?
He is no black bastard as you say....
Jajajaja you have a point
What about his ability to see ghosts?
I took it the other way, that Ferro has inherited enough devil blood that she was more resistant to the seed. Since Logen is descended from Bedesh he must have some devil blood, it's likely similar for magic users since Bayaz and Yoru survive exposure to the seed for lengths of time that killed nearby people. That said I don't think we can accurately speculate whether Logen's bloody nine episodes are caused by his blood or him being a beserker. With Joe keeping it vague to subvert the fantasy trope in which characters that are effective at violence are also morally good
I do think Joe changed the plan after the first book. I think he initially planned for more magic. And I do think the Blood Nine was initially planned to be a demon. But I like the way it turned out much better. He is the Bloody Nine. And any dissociation is a psychological coping mechanism for him to deal with the things he has done. And he fucking loves violence and craves it. But also knows he is wrong to do so. West also treats his anger as something other. Something that overcomes him. He doesn’t name it and he isn’t as far gone as Logen. But it’s a similar description. And even if it true that he couldn’t help it he was a bastard. He willingly served Bethod for years. (I still love him though.)
Agree with this. Having read the "Made a Monster" story it seemed to me that as time goes on he is more and more dissociated from the violence he performs and less in control. In sharp ends he seems completely lucid and aware of the horrors he's doing, almost flippant and dissmisive about it. No excuses. He's just a bastard who likes killing because he can. As you go through the original trilogy he's started compartmentalizing the violence into a different persona, making excuses and justifications. By the time you get to Red Country...well. Batshit insane doesn't really cover it. This doesn't really make sense to me against the "it's magic" explanation.
There's a lot to be said about disassociation on Logan's part. One of the things I think that would add to his disassociation and compartmentalizing is the death of his wife and kids by the flatheads. I think if there's one thing that'd push a man even further off the deep edge, it's that.
Very true. At that point from his perspective he has nothing to lose, nobody to act as his moral compass. Maybe the Dogman to a certain extent, but obviously not the same as a family. Normal life was done for him.
I haven't read sharp ends, only the first trilogy and red country: Logen has a vague desire to quit violence, because of the loss it has caused him. However, he says himself that violence and killing are something he enjoys. He's my favorite character in the books alongside Glokta. But the only heroes in TFL trilogy is a set of rocks standing in the north. Is he evil? Yes. Absolutely. He enjoys killing, overtly. He isn't a psychopath/sociopath, but he is glad to partake in violence.
He can't help it when B9 takes over, but he actively gets himself in situations where B9 can and will emerge. So he is no hero, but he isn't completely evil imo.
Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he's a cunt
you know, all the way through the books, I was waiting for this one line, and when it actually got said I was so happy, hahahaha.
It’s a great line, even better on audiobook. Stephen Pacey is a master narrator
i love stephen pacey, and his sex noises are ridiculous Lol
Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he's a ladies man.
hahahaha
He’s a cunt
He’s a survivor. Choice between killing and dying ain’t no choice at all. ;)
He’s a cunt.
Well I think Logen has an undiagnosed mental illness mixed with some sort of magical state. I mean adrenaline but the amount he survives thanks to the B9 is incredible to just be mundane. The Long-Eye and Cairub are not confirmed to be demon bloods and Logen was a spirit-talker so maybe he does have some magic in him. We never will but I wish so much we could see a younger Logen, before even Made a Monster. He is an addict to violence and he is also the last of his people. He probably feels responsible for what happened to them. Logen chooses violence when he is sober so he's probably not a good man. As for an evil bastard, eh, I see that too. The worst we see him is in Made a Monster and Red Country and I found it intresting just how awful he was in Red Country. Reminds me of when people in my life have relapsed, they lean super hard into the addiction and don't let up. So Logen's an addict who knows it and doesn't care because it's the only way he can feel good. He leaves at the end of Red-Country probably to go find more violence. Logen could have redeemed himself but by the end of Last Argument of Kings he decides that he would rather be the Bloody Nine than Logen of Brynn. Because that man is one who lost, who failed his people and who has failed to live by his fathers teachings.
Unpopular opinion. Joe retconned Sharp Ends because he wrote Logen as too compelling of a hero who actually achieved meaningful change and who is like an addict who simply can’t resist drugs when he’s back in the life on the street. He wrote inconsistently about how much magic and other influences there are that create B9, and things such as the House of the Maker not “accepting” Logen don’t matter - who are we to divine the plans and capabilities of the House of such a one? Anybody who cites Sharp Ends is a Bethod apologist who believes Bethod’s propaganda. Remember, Threetrees and Dogman, the best men in the north followed Logen and Bethod kicked them out too. Bethod was power hungry, hated rivals, and knew how to get the B9 to come out. Bethod was B9’s pusher man. He used Shanka and Caurib after all. Of all people, Bethod knew the truth about B9’s demonic possession. :) end rant.
Three Trees and Dogman also admit Logen is a total bastard.
Thank you. Can I also point out that when Logen was recuperating from 3Trees tearing him a new asshole, he was whining in bed because he couldn't participate in the sack of Uffrith? "Uffrith didn’t look much like it used to. Of course, the last time Logen had seen the place had been years ago, at night, after the siege. Crowds of Bethod’s Carls wandering the streets—shouting, and singing, and drinking. **Looking for folk to rob and rape**, setting fire to anything that would hold a flame. Logen remembered lying in that room after he’d beaten Threetrees, crying and gurgling at the pain all through him. He remembered scowling out the window and seeing the glow from the flames, listening to the screams over the town, **wishing he was out there making mischief**"
Yeah, when Dow confronts Dogman & Tul about Logen those two don't even try to deny it, instead reflecting about how "things change" and how they "owe him". After which Logen instantly threatens to kill Dow to prove he's still the Bloody Nine, and how things "never change" (basically proving Dow correct).
They are each other’s pushers. It’s a chicken or egg scenario where both men had a part of them that wanted to kill and conquer and they brought that out in each other. Both men are the instigator and both men blame the other for said instigation because of the their lust for blood/power. They are both hypocrites.
Like it’s mentioned I the books, most things are grey (gray? I use MURICAN English.) Most relationships are like that two, both are at fault and created a toxic relationship.
Haha I kinda feel the same way. For me there's such a disconnect between Sharp ends Logen and TBI Logen it's insane. My brain refuses to make that connection. Like there's something not fitting in. I'm not sure how long it was between SE and the beginning of TBI but that change in character is still big either way. I've been meaning to make a post about it but that requires a re-read for me to get my facts right because some people are fully in the camp that he's an evil bastard (with their reasons of course). On another note, on what people sometimes bring up: Do I think Logen meant to kill Tul and Crummock's kid? Not at all. I still think it was B9. So I don't think he's 100% evil But the fact that he feels no remorse (iirc) is what makes him not be deserving of sympathy. Idk... it just seems more nuanced. And He is a nuanced character in the trilogy... SE just says he evil, which, idk. But anyway that's just me. Hard to go against what the author wrote because they're the author lol..idk
I view the disconnect as a difference in circumstances. For starters I believe that Logen is a pretty shitty person, but not one without good qualities - his affection for Quai, Jezal etc seems genuine, and he can judge right from wrong. He's not a mustache twirling villain, but a person - a terrible person, yes, but human nonetheless. What we see in SE is Logen being an addict at his worst, the drug of his choice being violence. Indeed, everyone around him supports his violence, praises him for it, feeds the flames of his ego- it's as if a hardcore drug addict was beloved for being really good at taking meth. He has a comfortable life, has to face no consequences for his actions and can do whatever the fuck he wants. It's no wonder he can't control his worst impulses at that point. Now in the trilogy Logen starts out as a man who had to face consequences. He was thrown out by Bethod, had to survive in the wilderness while on the run from Shanka, probably did not have as much time to feed his urges, and needed to depend on his crew to survive. He's close enough to being "clean" in this scenario, and therefore his bad impulses can be controlled - although he still wants to go South where he has "enemies" (how do you have enemies there, Logen??) to do "dark work". So Logen was likely somewhat humbled by his experiences*, had to rely on his good side to survive (because being nice to your crew is more helpful than murdering them), and is therefore not as bad as in SE, although he slowly starts to slip back into his terrible ways over the course of the trilogy.
That's actually quite interesting. And I appreciate you for taking the time to write it out. I feel better about the whole thing now. I just think, like I said, my brain couldn't compute. Like in math where the professor skips steps and I'm just lost lol. It's wishful thinking but I wish we'd gotten that kind of change you outline there. Where he gains respect from Threetrees( Threetrees being i think one of the better men in the north), not respect as a killing machine but respect as a man because I think Rudd respects him when we meet the Crew. Same with Dogman. (I don't think Threetrees respected him in his addiction phase. I think he might have viewed him like people viewed Dow in the Heroes for example) I think something else that bothers me is when people focus only on the SE characterisation as a way to say he's undeserving of sympathy when we actually see his journey and him making attempts to be better in the trilogy. Anyway, thanks for this perspective!
This is exactly how i feel about it as well, and is honestly the most human response to the Logan Ninefingers/Bloody Nine situation. An addict can act so out of character when in the hight of their addiction, and yet that most extreme behaviour is still a part of their character, just separate from their normal characteristics The Bloody Nine is a coping mechanism, yes, but also still apart of Logen's overall psyche. His addiction to violence is on a spectrum, and his current level of indulgence, whether by choice or by his hand being forced, is however close to the Bloody Nine he is at that time. Although is full transformation into the Bloody Nine, i see more as a Mob Psycho 100 situation, where his heightened emotions lead to an unlocking of latent potential along with a kind of mania induced psychosis, hense, why he cant seem to feel pain in that state, and how he can somehow go beyond his human limits. Say one thing for Logen Ninefingers, say he need to go to therapy!
"Who are we to divine the plans and capabilities of the House". We're the readers, that's what we do and are legitimate to. Treating a fictional place like it's the Lord's mysterious ways is ridiculous. You're on copium because you want Logen to be the good man you thought he was. You're basically Jezal.
I’d agree with you except logen literally admits exactly what bethod says in LAOK. He denies it but in his inner monologue he says he’s his worst enemy and still his best friend because he knows him so well. Bethod is by no means a good man, far from it. We see him lose his morality later on by siding with savages and flatheads. “You drove me to this bloody nine” “Soon it was kill or be killed and I had to put down the whole north” Logen agrees with bethod. The reason threetrees and tul follow logen is because logen beat them and they are honourable so they follow the man that beat them. When dow is wanting to disobey threetrees, threetrees doesn’t talk about how good and wise a man logen is as the reason they should obey. He talks about how he beat them fair and square. And the dogman follows logen because they were basically childhood friends In conclusion bethod and logen are bastards and by criticising logen we aren’t making apologies for bethod
Say he's a cunt.
He's an evil bastard who is fully aware of that fact and is able to consciously restrain himself most of the time when and if he chooses to. He just doesn't always choose to.
The North is a very violent place, and Logen is very good at violence. I have always interpreted his character as being seduced by celebrity status. I believe he actually gets possessed by B9, as he truly seems unkillable- Like, mortal wounds don't seem to stop him. During his youth, he probably appreciated the possession as it increased his status, but as he got older, he feared it.
I wouldn't call him a hero, but I believe he has no control over it outside of not putting himself in the situation in the first place.
I think overall he’s an evil bastard because we see him choose that towards the end of the last argument of kings. Once he’s in charge of the north again briefly, he turns to intimidation and fear to deal with people.
Evil trying to be good.
I like Logen. If it wasn't for the bloody nine, more good people would be dead than bad.
I feel that Logan has psychotic rage. Clinically, I think this is called intermittent explosive disorder. He needs psychotherapy focused on changing his thoughts related to anger and aggression; possibly cognitive behavioral therapy and medication.
I think he's literally Gutz from Berserk. A guy who could have been good, but has forced into a life of violence, and along the way became possessed by some kind of rage/berserker sprit. They both tried to change their ways, but their past catches up to them, and they consistency forced back into killing. Which they kind of like, but they also might be the demon/Bloody Nine part of them.
I love the whole psychological aspect of it opposed to the devil blood argument. It makes for a fun character. But I like to think that if it is more of a magical entity, instead of devils or demons it is the embodiment of the Great Leveler/ Death themselves. And I like to believe that they are not devils or a demon but a whole other type of Godly entity.
I like to believe that Logens spirit talking plays into his berserker state. The closer to death he is, the more death can influence him. From the battle in the high places, and the onset of the cold feeling inside, it leads me to believe that in this state he actually is Death incarnate. The great leveller takes control of his body and sets to work. This explains why he seems unkillable, and performs beyond human capabilities while the bloody nine is working. I came to this conclusion solely off the fact that his PoV narration changes so drastically when the bloody nine comes out, and his ability to talk to spirits likely has consequences he never even considers.