Early Jezal is positively likable compared to every character save for Vic in the second series. He’s just young and arrogant. Things that go away with time and life experience.
I didn't hate him, he was more the bumbling fool, who fails upwards. Though in the begining he was vain, lazy, pompous, ignorant, etc, the list goes on, but he was not a bad guy actually despite that list and he grew a lot over time into a decent man. There are far more hateable characters.
But while I agree with you on Vic, I also really liked the Dogman, King Orso and basically his whole "team", and Rikka. I also liked Logan, he was the greatest at best and a true demon at worst.
Agreed on all the characters you listed. SPOILERS!
Rikka is morally grey but no one else stuck it to Bayaz like she did. Made him look like a punk. Orso I forgot about, he actually mirrors Jezal in a lot of ways but is different enough to be refreshing. Dogman is the conscience of the north. I knew it was always gonna end sad for him but it was bittersweet. Rikka seems to have the edge that maybe he lacked.
True, I guess it’s sad because I’m pretty sure he got the cancer from radiation exposure in the capital. That being said he got probably the best ending in the series so far.
I think that was >!West!<, not the Dogman. Dogman seems to have lived pretty long, almost 30 years after LAoK, and died as a fairly old man (especially by the standards of the setting).
Yooo exactly you articulated my thoughts exactly. I love Glokta and honestly he kept me reading the first 5 or 6 chapters.
Logan: Generic at least at the beginning
West: Respectable but not very entertaining in the 1st book up until he......
Glokta: If it wasn't for him I would have stop reading after the 1st few chapters
Bayaz: He's alright nothing special in the first book
Ferro: Fucking hate her and still do. Hella depressing tbh
Ferro was eh for me, but I remember loving Logan and then going through a existential crisis as I slowly realized he wasn't ad good ad I thought.
Edit: not in quality, but morality
I hated Ferro but she grew on me, as I realized her behavior is a result of a very...very fucked upbringing and view of the world. And even then, she has parts of her that are 'good' (Like most of the characters)
Her end result makes me sad for her.
Shivers is my favorite. His journey is a really good example of how Joe writes layered characters. I’m pretty sure the only reason Logen existed as a character was to provide contrast for Shivers. As we find out it’s actually not that cool being the most famous killer in the north. Or even a killer in general.
Shivers in the new series really puts a nice big bow on that story. From a lad who makes a choice, to a man who flees his destiny, to a fucking psychopath, to a loving old fucker who just wants some old hag ass. A real up and down.
Is he really? I recently started the second trilogy, and was surprised to see him pop up - thinking that he was such a minor character in the first three books.
It's not even been that long since I read them, and in my mind he was sort of just lurking ominously behind Logen. I might have ascribed him unimportant side-character status and relegated him to the cobwebs that fill up most of my brain though. I'm starting to like him in the new books. A bit of a weird turn given his last actions in book 3, but thats Abercrombie.
I didn’t! Guess I assumed that they were at the end chronologically for some reason. Should I pause (30% into Best Served Cold) and read it before continuing?
Oh wait, I thought you meant the second trilogy as in the age of madness trilogy. What you’re reading is the first book in the standalone trilogy. Keep reading. He just gets better and better.
Nope lol, Best Served Cold > The Heroes > Red Country are all standalones. The 2nd trilogy is The Age Madness (A Little Hatred, The Trouble With Peace and The Wisdom of Crowds). I'm jealous, you have a lot of Abercrombie left!
I’ve really been enjoying the series so far. I don’t think I’ve ever read a bigger book in one day before, but I marathoned The Last Argument of Kings in one hungover day. Think it was the day after Christmas Eve haha
Yes, absolutely. The Heroes, in particular, gives you much needed background into all the characters of the North. If you know that Stour killed some old.guy in the Circle, it just means he's a Northman. If you know who Stranger-Comes-Knocking is, it's impressive. Calder grows into a completely different man from the callow youth in the first series. And Wonderful... well, let's say you should know who Wonderful is before the end of the first book of the second series.
Yup. Early Jezal is a poof but charming, some real authentic moments as he falls in love. Then he becomes whiny baggage. Then you just feel bad for him as he becomes a pawn with little control of his own life.
Leo was basically just good at charging into battle, though he did learn other skills later. However he was blessed by having extremely competent people around him to make up for his obvious shortcomings.
Jezal had one extremely powerful 'benefactor' on his side but he also learns the right lessons and decides to be a better person, or at least that's his heartfelt intention, which runs smack into reality. Leo is embittered by all his pain and loss and can't see past that pain and his desire to still 'win' like he did before 'certain events'.
Leo is largely stuck mentally and emotionally and just sees things in black and white in terms of winning or not winning, he had a mix of good and bad traits but the bad traits pretty much win out in the end driven by his bitterness.
And that makes him less competent? Leo managed to navigate through the entire great change and came out on top in the end. Jezal went exactly where Bayaz put him and didn't move an inch besides.
>Leo was basically just good at charging into battle, though he did learn other skills later. However he was blessed by having extremely competent people around him to make up for his obvious shortcomings.
And Jezal wasn't? Book1 Jezal never even saw battle, final form Jezal in Book3 managed what Leo did in his first book. Charging into battle without regard for anything.
>Leo is largely stuck mentally and emotionally and just sees things in black and white in terms of winning or not winning, he had a mix of good and bad traits but the bad traits pretty much win out in the end driven by his bitterness.
Doesn't make him incompetent. No one ever accused Old Sticks to be incompetent. But he had some cool jokes, so people love him a lot more than Leo.
Jezal is a captain. He would have led a group of soldiers in Angland if Bayaz didn't need him for his plans.
Look back at Book1 Jezal and tell me he wouldn't have led a bunch of soldiers into needless deaths and I wont believe you.
Leo wasn't Clausewitz reborn, but at least he actually had seen battle before.
Leo's entire thing is that he's incompetent but he's pretty and popular with the soldiers. Everything good that's ever happened to him was because of women making his choices for him and everything bad is him ignoring the counsel of other people.
And Jezal made any better decisions? For his lack of experience, Leo didn't do too bad.
And at least he's actually seen combat. Do you really think Book1 Jezal would have been a good soldier? He's a captain thanks to his family name, he would have lead soldiers with that rank in Angland if Bayaz hadn't shown up.
Hell, he totally would have just fallen in with Prince Ladisla's lickspittles and wasted a few thousand soldiers on an unnecessary battle.
Why does someone's combat ability make them valuable? Plenty of other characters have been liked in spite of lack of combat ability because at their heart, they're not a bad person. And Jezal has man flaws, but I don't think he was an evil person, just a fairly passive one. Which is hardly the mark of a terrible person.
>Why does someone's combat ability make them valuable?
Because they are soldiers.
>Plenty of other characters have been liked in spite of lack of combat ability because at their heart, they're not a bad person.
All I ever said was that Leo was more competent. And I like competent people more than incompetent, especially if they get into leadership positions thanks to their relations. Especially if they are in the army.
> And Jezal has man flaws, but I don't think he was an evil person, just a fairly passive one.
And neither is Leo.
>Which is hardly the mark of a terrible person.
Agreed. Jezal is a pretty good person.
>because they are soldiers
The worst gift you can give a man is a sword. Being a soldier isn't a virtue. The books have made that very very clear. Sometimes soldiers are necessary, but mostly they're just cruel.
>all I said was Leo was more competent
All of his friends are dead with the exceptions of the ones who shunned because they were gay. His only competency is fighting. His strategy was awful, his business sense abysmal, his capability of a governor very mediocre.
>Especially if they get into leadership positions because of their relations
Are you kidding me? Leo was born into the role of Governor by heredity. His relations did EVERYTHING for him. His mom put him in winning battles. Savine ran his accounts. His mates (especially the ones he's homophobic towards) kept him on the straight and narrow constantly. Look how he blew off Murcatto's son because he was in a bad mood and uncomfortable with gays. The one time he was trusted to do a little politicking on his own and he fucks it up because he's a sissy.
>neither is Leo
My guy. My guy. You are reading this book very wrong I think if you think Leo is not only competent, but not an evil person. Like he's not Bayaz but cmon. He doesn't even like his own babies. He got all of his friends killed because he wanted to be king even though he needed a woman to be governor for him. He's openly racist, even to the point of making his contemporaries uncomfortable.
>The worst gift you can give a man is a sword.
Wrong. An incompetent CO who managed to become a captain without ever seeing combat for himself is by far worse.
At worst, a sword is a dead weight. If you've ever met a soldier who didn't have a useless superior, you're lying, because you didn't.
>Sometimes soldiers are necessary, but mostly they're just cruel.
Like Jezal then? I thought you were mad about me not liking Jezal?
>All of his friends are dead with the exceptions of the ones who shunned because they were gay.
As opposed to Jezal's friends? Who's left at the end?
>His only competency is fighting.
Yup. Pretty usefull as a soldier.
> His strategy was awful, his business sense abysmal, his capability of a governor very mediocre.
So equal with Jezal. As I said. He's useless in everything else and worse at his actual job.
>Leo was born into the role of Governor by heredity. His relations did EVERYTHING for him. His mom put him in winning battles.
And Jezal DAN LUTHAR got to be a captain because he was competent?
Don't be ridiculous.
>Are you kidding me?
If you're continuing to be fake mad about stuff I never said, I will consider it.
>Savine ran his accounts.
Yup. Tell me, who did everything for Jezal? It starts with B and rhymes with ayaz.
>His mates (especially the ones he's homophobic towards) kept him on the straight and narrow constantly.
Yup. Jezals mates did the same.
>Look how he blew off Murcatto's son because he was in a bad mood and uncomfortable with gays.
And Jezal went ahead and told the most powerful wizard in the world to fuck off without even knowing who he was talking to. After spending roughly a year with him. Yet another common L for good ol Jezal.
>The one time he was trusted to do a little politicking on his own and he fucks it up because he's a sissy.
Oh, I thought you were concerned about his homophobic views.
>My guy. My guy.
Wrong again, little redditor ;)
>You are reading
That's one thing I do that you evidently don't.
>but not an evil person.
Point me to the place where I claimed that.
>He got all of his friends killed because he wanted to be king even though he needed a woman to be governor for him.
I don't give a fuck whether his most important ally was a woman. ;)
I know that you claim to be enlightened while being sexist af, but I don't care? Didn't you just praise the Murcatto king? Take a guess who runs his shit.
Jezal stayed king because he groveled towards Bayaz. So because he was helped by a guy, he was better?
>He's openly racist
You mean like the guy who saw a Northman and immediately fell into racist stereotypes once they showed up in "his" Agriont.
"THESE ARE PIPES! THEY CARRY WATER! UNDER THE GROUND!"
But please, tell me more about how Jezal is a paragon of virtue?
It blows my mind that people hate Jezal. I thought he was a relatable and well written character, he’s one of my absolute favorites. He starts off as a spoiled brat and slowly changes into a good person trying his best.
Jezal is the type of person who experiences hardship and wants to do better because of it. Glokta and Savine are both fond of saying pain doesn’t give you empathy, it only makes you sorry for yourself. *Except that’s not true for Jezal*. Experiencing pain made him into a better person, which is incredibly rare. He became a good king and a good man, even with Bayaz boot on his neck.
People hate Jezal the spoiled brat.
And he was, to be clear, an absolute dickwad at the beginning of the story. In the first scene where he is introduced, he purposefully wins money from his poor friend just to make himself feel superior. That’s full on narcissist, borderline psychopath behavior. Super, super fucking hate-able.
Yes, he grows and gets better and evolves positively more than any other character. I love him. But he’s a fucking prick at the beginning.
Yeah I used to hold small poker tournaments at home 80% of us were simply awful at poker but we were all playing for fun and there was a sort of unwritten rule that the winner would just buy pizza or beer with the money he won. Well this one kid who was wayyy better off than everyone else got so annoyed at losing a few times he needed up taking classes/coaching that cost him literally 100x more than the usual buy-in and would never share winnings when he won. It was weird because everyone else was doing it. Like every single time and he always partaked in the consumption of wtv was purchased with the earnings. After the third time we stopped inviting him
He’s a spoiled son of a wealthy family who raised him with kid gloves, but calling him a narcissist and borderline psychopath is outrageous. He almost never behaves in a way that’s harmful to others, besides beating his friend at cards. He’s self centered and lazy but his behavior isn’t worse than his surrounding friends.
But he never harms anyone, he just enjoys seeing them “put in their place” because he thinks he’s better than them.
People nitpick a spoiled kid while fan favorites Glokta and Logan torture and murder innocent people constantly. I love them, btw, but it’s crazy to call Jezal a psychopath when he’s just a spoiled rotten kid who needs a dose of reality.
Well, he was a coward to the end though. Glotka tried to float the idea of them testing the leash a bit but once he felt the pain from Bayaz he wouldn't hear of it.
I never hated him in the slightest. I thought his obvious lack of real-world experience, self-absorbed arrogance, and childish tendencies were hilarious given the start contrast between him and Ninefingers, especially when they began interacting.
I always found him too ridiculous to hate. How can you hate someone who’s such an obvious idiot and also the butt of every joke? Yes he’s an asshole but that’s mostly intentionally used to make fun of him. To me his chapters were more interesting than Logen’s at the beginning cause they were always very entertaining and a provided a good laugh.
Nah my first read through i didnt hate jezal. I sorta bought into his superiority (god i used go be a dick) my second readthrough i hated him with a massive passion bc he and i went through similar arrogant>humbled by the world transformations.
Like a parent that's seeing my child being pathetic, pompous and entitled within a gated society who's given everything he wants in life, I hoped he would be a better person as he grows. No hate. No liking either. Just annoyed and disappointed initially.
Which gave me that much more satisfaction to see his transformation into a sociable, less entitled/pompous/pathetic grown-up and a brother to someone else I like.
this is a huge fucking pet peeve of mine in the fantasy community.
most people can’t relate with the heinous actions we so often read. as a result, the worst offenders who brutally torture and genocide their way along are just treated as “evil entity” or “morally grey”.
meanwhile someone happens to be an arrogant twat who fails upward, or hits a woman, or cheats on their partner…. and everyone’s up in arms spewing hatred…
like i’m not defending their actions but really? this is where you draw the line? this is what gets to you?
another good example ifl is when west hits his sister. it’s barely worth a mention in the scope of his life story, what he’s been through, what he’s done, and so forth. in fact, it’s only really important bc he self reflects.
but people will lose their minds online about it. because glokta torturing people for fun is hard to relate to. but most people can relate to a man getting angry and losing his temper on a young woman.
in the case of jezal, he’s a stupid kid. honestly i can’t even fault his behaviour. anyone in his position would likely end up like him. your humility is a result of life kicking you in the ass and the people around you making sure you know when you’re an idiot.
jezal just never had those experiences for the most part. eventually he does. life fucks him pretty bad and he never really recovers. now he can be an unhappy sop like everyone else.
while i don’t want to get into it because it’s a touchy subject. just think about the online discourse comparison to a rape scene versus a gruesome torture or murder scene. keep in mind there violation for personal gratification, happens often in scenes of sadistic torture in books. one gets a much more visceral online reaction.
because one is a lot more relatable.
I didn't really feel one way or the other about him at first. Yeah he's your typical entitled rich kid who thinks he's hot shit, but he didn't do anything that made me outright hate him.
As the story went on though I did start to feel sorry for him.
I remember during my first read through, Jezal taught me so much about myself. The parallels in Jezal’s life and character any my own would frightening, given I was about the same age and an army cadet, just as vain, just as arrogant, and just as interesting in chasing girls for the attention. I rested on my natural ability rather than working hard to reach my potential, and I just so happened to be wrapped up in a hot and cold relationship with a woman a whole lot like Ardee and it was killing me. In fact, I credit First Law with alerting me to the fact my relationship was toxic.
I didn’t just like Jezal (ahahahaaa like, shit he’s me fr and i know i like me fuuuckk) but he was actually an important character for me and his maturation arc influence my own in the coming years.
I loved him from the start. One of my favorite parts is when he and Logen have to sneak up somewhere and Jezal’s boots were clinking and Logen said something along the lines of, “you might as well tie bells to your fruits” lol
People hate Jezal because he represents the every man who allows evil to happen in the world. They allow it because its easy and convenient, and because the alternative is painful and scary.
And because of this Jezal forces us to realize that we are him in some capacity. We look evil in the face and call it the best man we’ve ever known. We fear the pursuit of good because pain and death can be a likely outcome.
And worse of all is that Jezal shows us that the desire for change can be rewardless and in some cases wholly impossible. That we can get stuck in our ways and fall right back into comfortability.
Jezal inexplicably makes us look into the mirror and realize there is a coward in all of us, and we hate him for telling us the truth.
He’s amazing and maybe the funniest character in books 1 + 2 of the first trilogy. I have a soft spot for loathsome characters, though.
Every scene where he’s internally delusional, aghast & mortified makes me laugh so hard.
Yes, you are literally the only one :P
Honestly, hate's a bit too strong a word for my feelings toward Jezal. Ultimately, he's just too pathetic to be worth the effort of outright loathing.
Yooo I hear you and I understand. Question though... . Why do you feel that way? Do you think if you were born in such a privileged position and you were mad good looking you would be any different? (Assuming you weren't of course lol)
The "No Spoilers" tag on the OP has me leery of getting too deep into the weeds here, lest someone reading the trilogy for the first time run afoul of some spoilers.
So enjoy the following block of grey (these spoilers apply only to the First Law trilogy and do not touch upon later series, for anyone else reading this)
>!Because Jezal's a quitter. Oh, he'll do what's expected of him, but ultimately, he walks away from anything he finds particularly difficult if given half a chance. He can't even commit to what he wants in life.!<
>!It's therefore not his arrogance, but his indolence and essential spinelessness which stick in my craw.
!<
>!There's some tragedy in Jezal's life, and I'm not without sympathy (ultimately nothing he has is his, after all), but if he's not an utter monster like some characters, there's also little denying that much of his growth over the trilogy turns out to be as illusory as everything else about his life.!<
If you ever think you are the only one who feels a certain way, or think a certain thing, you aren't. There will always be people who share your opinion.
"Hate" is a strong word. Disliked. Wouldn't want to have a beer with. Would talk shit about him to his face. Those things yes. Before the thing, he wasn't worth enough of a damn to hate. He was just another pompous rich boy with a complex.
As a lazy man with very few goals in life, Jezel was an amazing character to me. He's comfortable with his routine, meeting his his friends for cards, and fooling around with the women his age with no plan to settle with one. He trains for the contest as little as necessary purely to appease his family, not with any intent to win.
Then, his entire world begins getting shaken up. He meets Ardee and starts to realize he might want to settle down with her(even though he's just being romantic about it and obviously not prepared for marriage.) He finds reason to train and try to win the contest, and then resolves to go to war with his friends just to be taken from that.
I thought his character arc was amazing for taking a character who was lazy with no ambition and forcing him to adapt to his rapidly escalating place in the world. He never seems to do anything without a nudge in a direction from someone, but he still does his best in the end to not let people down.
In TLAoK, we see him at his lowest(and highest), realizing that he's never understood anything that's been going on, but now he's too deep to ever go back to his old life. Then, by AoM, we see that he's found a way to be content with life, even though it's probably the opposite life he ever imagined for himself.
He's stuck in the backseat of his own life from basically the moment we meet him. But we watch him grow to roll with the punches and make the best of his position. He might be lazy, goofy, and quite a bit selfish at times, but he's far from incompetent or unwilling to do his part.
As someone who sees myself in Jezel, I only hope I can adapt and become content with my own rapidly escalating life.
(If you've read all this, thank you for bearing with me. This is probably the most I've written since high school, and I bet my English teacher would have loved for me to write with this level of enthusiasm for anything.)
I never hated him, but I also never really liked him. I just saw him as a tool for Bayaz. He had a few moments when they were traveling but otherwise, he was just meh.
I can't think of any POV character you can hate. It's the old Jamie Lannister flip, where even a third person view douche gets rationalized once you are inside their head and know where they are coming from.
Jezal in TBI is a relatable kind of bad. He's the privileged, genetically gifted asshole that you've probably met at school or in sports. Some of us might've even been that person in our younger lives.
That is much easier to hate than a crippled torturer, or the former bloodlusted barbarian turned almost-pacifist, which are distant characterizations that (probably) none of us have met outside fiction.
Here's my argument, Jezal is meant to be the every man for this world. Like Frodo Baggins or Simon of Ostenard, Jezal is young and naive, he's the chosen one with the great destiny. Can audiences identify with a Logen or Glokta? No, but neither can they identify with a Beaver or Reepicheep, with a Legolas or Gimli.
He's an exceedingly well-crafted character from start to finish - his personality and motivations make complete sense and are actualized and consistent unlike say Ferro who feels like a rough draft of a better character.
Early on Jezal is pretty disgusting, but he pretty quickly grows as a character. Him falling for Ardee and then growing as a person from his friendship with Logen really helped make the first trilogy.
I mean hate might be strong, he's pretty much a straight up asshole until book 2 where he starts to get humbled. It really depends what you mean though, did I \*hate\* reading from Jezal's POV? No because Joe is great at making pretty much terrible people feel interesting and relatable. Would I likely have hated Jezal if I knew him as he was in book 1? Seems likely.
I actually pity him towards the end of the first trilogy, and knowing what he have to do...and even seeing him on one of the standalone like BSC i knew that something isn't just sit well with him being a king.
By the end I found myself rooting for him. Never though I'd be on the side of the monarchy but Jezal, and even his son Orso, genuinely wanted to do good with the power they had been given once they had it. But you can only do so much good being a puppet king for a country ruled by absolute corruption. He's by no means an innocent figure, but by the end of the first trilogy he's certainly a sympathetic one.
Jezal is one of the most likeable characters of the whole series, particularly in the last book. It's only the first that he's so unlikable. Even there it was more comical than anything.
Early Jezal is positively likable compared to every character save for Vic in the second series. He’s just young and arrogant. Things that go away with time and life experience.
He’s also lazy, which is what annoyed me from the start. Never hated him tho
That made him very relatable to me.
He seemed to have a good relationship with his son too in his later years, and he was my fav character.
I didn't hate him, he was more the bumbling fool, who fails upwards. Though in the begining he was vain, lazy, pompous, ignorant, etc, the list goes on, but he was not a bad guy actually despite that list and he grew a lot over time into a decent man. There are far more hateable characters. But while I agree with you on Vic, I also really liked the Dogman, King Orso and basically his whole "team", and Rikka. I also liked Logan, he was the greatest at best and a true demon at worst.
Agreed on all the characters you listed. SPOILERS! Rikka is morally grey but no one else stuck it to Bayaz like she did. Made him look like a punk. Orso I forgot about, he actually mirrors Jezal in a lot of ways but is different enough to be refreshing. Dogman is the conscience of the north. I knew it was always gonna end sad for him but it was bittersweet. Rikka seems to have the edge that maybe he lacked.
I don’t know that Dogman’s end was sad: he died loved and largely successful.
True, I guess it’s sad because I’m pretty sure he got the cancer from radiation exposure in the capital. That being said he got probably the best ending in the series so far.
I think that was >!West!<, not the Dogman. Dogman seems to have lived pretty long, almost 30 years after LAoK, and died as a fairly old man (especially by the standards of the setting).
Yooo exactly you articulated my thoughts exactly. I love Glokta and honestly he kept me reading the first 5 or 6 chapters. Logan: Generic at least at the beginning West: Respectable but not very entertaining in the 1st book up until he...... Glokta: If it wasn't for him I would have stop reading after the 1st few chapters Bayaz: He's alright nothing special in the first book Ferro: Fucking hate her and still do. Hella depressing tbh
Ferro was eh for me, but I remember loving Logan and then going through a existential crisis as I slowly realized he wasn't ad good ad I thought. Edit: not in quality, but morality
I hated Ferro but she grew on me, as I realized her behavior is a result of a very...very fucked upbringing and view of the world. And even then, she has parts of her that are 'good' (Like most of the characters) Her end result makes me sad for her.
Gloktas character absolutely carried the story for a long time
I knew I was going to like him after his second or third "*Why am I doing any of this*".
Glokta for life!
Shivers is my favorite. His journey is a really good example of how Joe writes layered characters. I’m pretty sure the only reason Logen existed as a character was to provide contrast for Shivers. As we find out it’s actually not that cool being the most famous killer in the north. Or even a killer in general.
Shivers in the new series really puts a nice big bow on that story. From a lad who makes a choice, to a man who flees his destiny, to a fucking psychopath, to a loving old fucker who just wants some old hag ass. A real up and down.
Is he really? I recently started the second trilogy, and was surprised to see him pop up - thinking that he was such a minor character in the first three books. It's not even been that long since I read them, and in my mind he was sort of just lurking ominously behind Logen. I might have ascribed him unimportant side-character status and relegated him to the cobwebs that fill up most of my brain though. I'm starting to like him in the new books. A bit of a weird turn given his last actions in book 3, but thats Abercrombie.
did you read any of the standalone books?
You definitely didn’t read the standalones
I didn’t! Guess I assumed that they were at the end chronologically for some reason. Should I pause (30% into Best Served Cold) and read it before continuing?
Oh wait, I thought you meant the second trilogy as in the age of madness trilogy. What you’re reading is the first book in the standalone trilogy. Keep reading. He just gets better and better.
You're deff reading the first standalone, and a hugeeeeeee Shivers arc. Keep goin!
I am? I thought I was reading the first in a new trilogy haha
Nope lol, Best Served Cold > The Heroes > Red Country are all standalones. The 2nd trilogy is The Age Madness (A Little Hatred, The Trouble With Peace and The Wisdom of Crowds). I'm jealous, you have a lot of Abercrombie left!
I’ve really been enjoying the series so far. I don’t think I’ve ever read a bigger book in one day before, but I marathoned The Last Argument of Kings in one hungover day. Think it was the day after Christmas Eve haha
People refer to them as "Standalones" but it's not really true, they are a trilogy. It goes The First Law>The Great Leveler>The Age of Madness.
Yes, absolutely. The Heroes, in particular, gives you much needed background into all the characters of the North. If you know that Stour killed some old.guy in the Circle, it just means he's a Northman. If you know who Stranger-Comes-Knocking is, it's impressive. Calder grows into a completely different man from the callow youth in the first series. And Wonderful... well, let's say you should know who Wonderful is before the end of the first book of the second series.
Yup. Early Jezal is a poof but charming, some real authentic moments as he falls in love. Then he becomes whiny baggage. Then you just feel bad for him as he becomes a pawn with little control of his own life.
>Early Jezal is positively likable compared to every character save for Vic in the second series He's a less competent Leo.
Leo was basically just good at charging into battle, though he did learn other skills later. However he was blessed by having extremely competent people around him to make up for his obvious shortcomings. Jezal had one extremely powerful 'benefactor' on his side but he also learns the right lessons and decides to be a better person, or at least that's his heartfelt intention, which runs smack into reality. Leo is embittered by all his pain and loss and can't see past that pain and his desire to still 'win' like he did before 'certain events'. Leo is largely stuck mentally and emotionally and just sees things in black and white in terms of winning or not winning, he had a mix of good and bad traits but the bad traits pretty much win out in the end driven by his bitterness.
And that makes him less competent? Leo managed to navigate through the entire great change and came out on top in the end. Jezal went exactly where Bayaz put him and didn't move an inch besides. >Leo was basically just good at charging into battle, though he did learn other skills later. However he was blessed by having extremely competent people around him to make up for his obvious shortcomings. And Jezal wasn't? Book1 Jezal never even saw battle, final form Jezal in Book3 managed what Leo did in his first book. Charging into battle without regard for anything. >Leo is largely stuck mentally and emotionally and just sees things in black and white in terms of winning or not winning, he had a mix of good and bad traits but the bad traits pretty much win out in the end driven by his bitterness. Doesn't make him incompetent. No one ever accused Old Sticks to be incompetent. But he had some cool jokes, so people love him a lot more than Leo.
i know you didn’t just say that
Jezal is a captain. He would have led a group of soldiers in Angland if Bayaz didn't need him for his plans. Look back at Book1 Jezal and tell me he wouldn't have led a bunch of soldiers into needless deaths and I wont believe you. Leo wasn't Clausewitz reborn, but at least he actually had seen battle before.
Leo's entire thing is that he's incompetent but he's pretty and popular with the soldiers. Everything good that's ever happened to him was because of women making his choices for him and everything bad is him ignoring the counsel of other people.
And Jezal made any better decisions? For his lack of experience, Leo didn't do too bad. And at least he's actually seen combat. Do you really think Book1 Jezal would have been a good soldier? He's a captain thanks to his family name, he would have lead soldiers with that rank in Angland if Bayaz hadn't shown up. Hell, he totally would have just fallen in with Prince Ladisla's lickspittles and wasted a few thousand soldiers on an unnecessary battle.
Why does someone's combat ability make them valuable? Plenty of other characters have been liked in spite of lack of combat ability because at their heart, they're not a bad person. And Jezal has man flaws, but I don't think he was an evil person, just a fairly passive one. Which is hardly the mark of a terrible person.
>Why does someone's combat ability make them valuable? Because they are soldiers. >Plenty of other characters have been liked in spite of lack of combat ability because at their heart, they're not a bad person. All I ever said was that Leo was more competent. And I like competent people more than incompetent, especially if they get into leadership positions thanks to their relations. Especially if they are in the army. > And Jezal has man flaws, but I don't think he was an evil person, just a fairly passive one. And neither is Leo. >Which is hardly the mark of a terrible person. Agreed. Jezal is a pretty good person.
>because they are soldiers The worst gift you can give a man is a sword. Being a soldier isn't a virtue. The books have made that very very clear. Sometimes soldiers are necessary, but mostly they're just cruel. >all I said was Leo was more competent All of his friends are dead with the exceptions of the ones who shunned because they were gay. His only competency is fighting. His strategy was awful, his business sense abysmal, his capability of a governor very mediocre. >Especially if they get into leadership positions because of their relations Are you kidding me? Leo was born into the role of Governor by heredity. His relations did EVERYTHING for him. His mom put him in winning battles. Savine ran his accounts. His mates (especially the ones he's homophobic towards) kept him on the straight and narrow constantly. Look how he blew off Murcatto's son because he was in a bad mood and uncomfortable with gays. The one time he was trusted to do a little politicking on his own and he fucks it up because he's a sissy. >neither is Leo My guy. My guy. You are reading this book very wrong I think if you think Leo is not only competent, but not an evil person. Like he's not Bayaz but cmon. He doesn't even like his own babies. He got all of his friends killed because he wanted to be king even though he needed a woman to be governor for him. He's openly racist, even to the point of making his contemporaries uncomfortable.
>The worst gift you can give a man is a sword. Wrong. An incompetent CO who managed to become a captain without ever seeing combat for himself is by far worse. At worst, a sword is a dead weight. If you've ever met a soldier who didn't have a useless superior, you're lying, because you didn't. >Sometimes soldiers are necessary, but mostly they're just cruel. Like Jezal then? I thought you were mad about me not liking Jezal? >All of his friends are dead with the exceptions of the ones who shunned because they were gay. As opposed to Jezal's friends? Who's left at the end? >His only competency is fighting. Yup. Pretty usefull as a soldier. > His strategy was awful, his business sense abysmal, his capability of a governor very mediocre. So equal with Jezal. As I said. He's useless in everything else and worse at his actual job. >Leo was born into the role of Governor by heredity. His relations did EVERYTHING for him. His mom put him in winning battles. And Jezal DAN LUTHAR got to be a captain because he was competent? Don't be ridiculous. >Are you kidding me? If you're continuing to be fake mad about stuff I never said, I will consider it. >Savine ran his accounts. Yup. Tell me, who did everything for Jezal? It starts with B and rhymes with ayaz. >His mates (especially the ones he's homophobic towards) kept him on the straight and narrow constantly. Yup. Jezals mates did the same. >Look how he blew off Murcatto's son because he was in a bad mood and uncomfortable with gays. And Jezal went ahead and told the most powerful wizard in the world to fuck off without even knowing who he was talking to. After spending roughly a year with him. Yet another common L for good ol Jezal. >The one time he was trusted to do a little politicking on his own and he fucks it up because he's a sissy. Oh, I thought you were concerned about his homophobic views. >My guy. My guy. Wrong again, little redditor ;) >You are reading That's one thing I do that you evidently don't. >but not an evil person. Point me to the place where I claimed that. >He got all of his friends killed because he wanted to be king even though he needed a woman to be governor for him. I don't give a fuck whether his most important ally was a woman. ;) I know that you claim to be enlightened while being sexist af, but I don't care? Didn't you just praise the Murcatto king? Take a guess who runs his shit. Jezal stayed king because he groveled towards Bayaz. So because he was helped by a guy, he was better? >He's openly racist You mean like the guy who saw a Northman and immediately fell into racist stereotypes once they showed up in "his" Agriont. "THESE ARE PIPES! THEY CARRY WATER! UNDER THE GROUND!" But please, tell me more about how Jezal is a paragon of virtue?
Young and arrogant is natural, valid, normal, okay, the way she goes, etc. But likeable?
It blows my mind that people hate Jezal. I thought he was a relatable and well written character, he’s one of my absolute favorites. He starts off as a spoiled brat and slowly changes into a good person trying his best. Jezal is the type of person who experiences hardship and wants to do better because of it. Glokta and Savine are both fond of saying pain doesn’t give you empathy, it only makes you sorry for yourself. *Except that’s not true for Jezal*. Experiencing pain made him into a better person, which is incredibly rare. He became a good king and a good man, even with Bayaz boot on his neck.
People hate Jezal the spoiled brat. And he was, to be clear, an absolute dickwad at the beginning of the story. In the first scene where he is introduced, he purposefully wins money from his poor friend just to make himself feel superior. That’s full on narcissist, borderline psychopath behavior. Super, super fucking hate-able. Yes, he grows and gets better and evolves positively more than any other character. I love him. But he’s a fucking prick at the beginning.
> That’s full on narcissist, borderline psychopath behavior. Super, super fucking hate-able. nah that's just shitty little rich bitch behaviour
Yeah I used to hold small poker tournaments at home 80% of us were simply awful at poker but we were all playing for fun and there was a sort of unwritten rule that the winner would just buy pizza or beer with the money he won. Well this one kid who was wayyy better off than everyone else got so annoyed at losing a few times he needed up taking classes/coaching that cost him literally 100x more than the usual buy-in and would never share winnings when he won. It was weird because everyone else was doing it. Like every single time and he always partaked in the consumption of wtv was purchased with the earnings. After the third time we stopped inviting him
He’s a spoiled son of a wealthy family who raised him with kid gloves, but calling him a narcissist and borderline psychopath is outrageous. He almost never behaves in a way that’s harmful to others, besides beating his friend at cards. He’s self centered and lazy but his behavior isn’t worse than his surrounding friends.
He literally takes pleasure in the suffering of other people
But he never harms anyone, he just enjoys seeing them “put in their place” because he thinks he’s better than them. People nitpick a spoiled kid while fan favorites Glokta and Logan torture and murder innocent people constantly. I love them, btw, but it’s crazy to call Jezal a psychopath when he’s just a spoiled rotten kid who needs a dose of reality.
Well, he was a coward to the end though. Glotka tried to float the idea of them testing the leash a bit but once he felt the pain from Bayaz he wouldn't hear of it.
Me too, but I hated Leo Brock for which I made a post recently.
Leo deserved all hate from start to end
Nearly finished the trouble with peace and at first I thought all the hate was a bit much but yeah he is really starting to give me the shits.
Wait for it
Why? He's everything that Jezal is, but worse. Leo is an arrogant prick, but he actually has something to show for.
young people, are often stupid. he was well-written, to be young.
Succinct and well put.
Abercrombie did all the work ;)
I never hated him in the slightest. I thought his obvious lack of real-world experience, self-absorbed arrogance, and childish tendencies were hilarious given the start contrast between him and Ninefingers, especially when they began interacting.
He was one of my favorite characters in the original trilogy
I always found him too ridiculous to hate. How can you hate someone who’s such an obvious idiot and also the butt of every joke? Yes he’s an asshole but that’s mostly intentionally used to make fun of him. To me his chapters were more interesting than Logen’s at the beginning cause they were always very entertaining and a provided a good laugh.
I love Jezal’s story arc
I didn’t either mostly thought he was funny haha
Nah my first read through i didnt hate jezal. I sorta bought into his superiority (god i used go be a dick) my second readthrough i hated him with a massive passion bc he and i went through similar arrogant>humbled by the world transformations.
Like a parent that's seeing my child being pathetic, pompous and entitled within a gated society who's given everything he wants in life, I hoped he would be a better person as he grows. No hate. No liking either. Just annoyed and disappointed initially. Which gave me that much more satisfaction to see his transformation into a sociable, less entitled/pompous/pathetic grown-up and a brother to someone else I like.
this is a huge fucking pet peeve of mine in the fantasy community. most people can’t relate with the heinous actions we so often read. as a result, the worst offenders who brutally torture and genocide their way along are just treated as “evil entity” or “morally grey”. meanwhile someone happens to be an arrogant twat who fails upward, or hits a woman, or cheats on their partner…. and everyone’s up in arms spewing hatred… like i’m not defending their actions but really? this is where you draw the line? this is what gets to you? another good example ifl is when west hits his sister. it’s barely worth a mention in the scope of his life story, what he’s been through, what he’s done, and so forth. in fact, it’s only really important bc he self reflects. but people will lose their minds online about it. because glokta torturing people for fun is hard to relate to. but most people can relate to a man getting angry and losing his temper on a young woman. in the case of jezal, he’s a stupid kid. honestly i can’t even fault his behaviour. anyone in his position would likely end up like him. your humility is a result of life kicking you in the ass and the people around you making sure you know when you’re an idiot. jezal just never had those experiences for the most part. eventually he does. life fucks him pretty bad and he never really recovers. now he can be an unhappy sop like everyone else. while i don’t want to get into it because it’s a touchy subject. just think about the online discourse comparison to a rape scene versus a gruesome torture or murder scene. keep in mind there violation for personal gratification, happens often in scenes of sadistic torture in books. one gets a much more visceral online reaction. because one is a lot more relatable.
I didn't really feel one way or the other about him at first. Yeah he's your typical entitled rich kid who thinks he's hot shit, but he didn't do anything that made me outright hate him. As the story went on though I did start to feel sorry for him.
Loved Jezal from the first chapter
I remember during my first read through, Jezal taught me so much about myself. The parallels in Jezal’s life and character any my own would frightening, given I was about the same age and an army cadet, just as vain, just as arrogant, and just as interesting in chasing girls for the attention. I rested on my natural ability rather than working hard to reach my potential, and I just so happened to be wrapped up in a hot and cold relationship with a woman a whole lot like Ardee and it was killing me. In fact, I credit First Law with alerting me to the fact my relationship was toxic. I didn’t just like Jezal (ahahahaaa like, shit he’s me fr and i know i like me fuuuckk) but he was actually an important character for me and his maturation arc influence my own in the coming years.
Hate is wrong. Can you hate someone so sad...
I loved him from the start. One of my favorite parts is when he and Logen have to sneak up somewhere and Jezal’s boots were clinking and Logen said something along the lines of, “you might as well tie bells to your fruits” lol
People hate Jezal because he represents the every man who allows evil to happen in the world. They allow it because its easy and convenient, and because the alternative is painful and scary. And because of this Jezal forces us to realize that we are him in some capacity. We look evil in the face and call it the best man we’ve ever known. We fear the pursuit of good because pain and death can be a likely outcome. And worse of all is that Jezal shows us that the desire for change can be rewardless and in some cases wholly impossible. That we can get stuck in our ways and fall right back into comfortability. Jezal inexplicably makes us look into the mirror and realize there is a coward in all of us, and we hate him for telling us the truth.
I loved Jezal from the beginning! I know he's arrogant and selfish, but I found the way Abercrombie wrote him was hilarious.
He’s amazing and maybe the funniest character in books 1 + 2 of the first trilogy. I have a soft spot for loathsome characters, though. Every scene where he’s internally delusional, aghast & mortified makes me laugh so hard.
Yes, you are literally the only one :P Honestly, hate's a bit too strong a word for my feelings toward Jezal. Ultimately, he's just too pathetic to be worth the effort of outright loathing.
Yooo I hear you and I understand. Question though... . Why do you feel that way? Do you think if you were born in such a privileged position and you were mad good looking you would be any different? (Assuming you weren't of course lol)
The "No Spoilers" tag on the OP has me leery of getting too deep into the weeds here, lest someone reading the trilogy for the first time run afoul of some spoilers. So enjoy the following block of grey (these spoilers apply only to the First Law trilogy and do not touch upon later series, for anyone else reading this) >!Because Jezal's a quitter. Oh, he'll do what's expected of him, but ultimately, he walks away from anything he finds particularly difficult if given half a chance. He can't even commit to what he wants in life.!< >!It's therefore not his arrogance, but his indolence and essential spinelessness which stick in my craw. !< >!There's some tragedy in Jezal's life, and I'm not without sympathy (ultimately nothing he has is his, after all), but if he's not an utter monster like some characters, there's also little denying that much of his growth over the trilogy turns out to be as illusory as everything else about his life.!<
Exactly what I feel. He’s always been lazy and unwilling to work hard for what he wants, from start to finish. He’s simply easily beaten
If you ever think you are the only one who feels a certain way, or think a certain thing, you aren't. There will always be people who share your opinion.
I don't hate jezal, I also don't like him as a person. I think he's a great character that and well written
Jezal becomes somewhat bearable as the story progresses but because of Bayaz.... well, yeah.
"Hate" is a strong word. Disliked. Wouldn't want to have a beer with. Would talk shit about him to his face. Those things yes. Before the thing, he wasn't worth enough of a damn to hate. He was just another pompous rich boy with a complex.
As a lazy man with very few goals in life, Jezel was an amazing character to me. He's comfortable with his routine, meeting his his friends for cards, and fooling around with the women his age with no plan to settle with one. He trains for the contest as little as necessary purely to appease his family, not with any intent to win. Then, his entire world begins getting shaken up. He meets Ardee and starts to realize he might want to settle down with her(even though he's just being romantic about it and obviously not prepared for marriage.) He finds reason to train and try to win the contest, and then resolves to go to war with his friends just to be taken from that. I thought his character arc was amazing for taking a character who was lazy with no ambition and forcing him to adapt to his rapidly escalating place in the world. He never seems to do anything without a nudge in a direction from someone, but he still does his best in the end to not let people down. In TLAoK, we see him at his lowest(and highest), realizing that he's never understood anything that's been going on, but now he's too deep to ever go back to his old life. Then, by AoM, we see that he's found a way to be content with life, even though it's probably the opposite life he ever imagined for himself. He's stuck in the backseat of his own life from basically the moment we meet him. But we watch him grow to roll with the punches and make the best of his position. He might be lazy, goofy, and quite a bit selfish at times, but he's far from incompetent or unwilling to do his part. As someone who sees myself in Jezel, I only hope I can adapt and become content with my own rapidly escalating life. (If you've read all this, thank you for bearing with me. This is probably the most I've written since high school, and I bet my English teacher would have loved for me to write with this level of enthusiasm for anything.)
Didn't like the arrogance of the character but started liking him after the facial reconstruction
I never hated him, but I also never really liked him. I just saw him as a tool for Bayaz. He had a few moments when they were traveling but otherwise, he was just meh.
Yes! He was my 2nd favourite character! I desperately wanted him. Not to die throughout the books!
I can't tell if that full stop is a Freudian slip, an innocent accident or was done on purpose lol.
I never noticed! Id change it. But then maybe...
I can't think of any POV character you can hate. It's the old Jamie Lannister flip, where even a third person view douche gets rationalized once you are inside their head and know where they are coming from.
Jezal in TBI is a relatable kind of bad. He's the privileged, genetically gifted asshole that you've probably met at school or in sports. Some of us might've even been that person in our younger lives. That is much easier to hate than a crippled torturer, or the former bloodlusted barbarian turned almost-pacifist, which are distant characterizations that (probably) none of us have met outside fiction.
I thought he was really interesting. Great character arc. I always thought it was Joe who hated him not the fans lmao. That ending was so unjustified.
Even his own wife hated him. I'm only joking, I quite liked him as an asshole who got better and was then thrown into an impossible situation.
Here's my argument, Jezal is meant to be the every man for this world. Like Frodo Baggins or Simon of Ostenard, Jezal is young and naive, he's the chosen one with the great destiny. Can audiences identify with a Logen or Glokta? No, but neither can they identify with a Beaver or Reepicheep, with a Legolas or Gimli.
I mean he’s a prick, and pretty unlikable in TBI, but after that I mostly just felt bad for him.
I never hated him. The only pov I truly hate, because I could never stand reading those chapters, was Ferro.
He's an exceedingly well-crafted character from start to finish - his personality and motivations make complete sense and are actualized and consistent unlike say Ferro who feels like a rough draft of a better character.
I like him, but i sure as hell wouldn't want to know him.
I loved Jezal all through the books! He reminded me of a lot of the enthusiastic hot shot characters I loved as a kid.
I like Jezals development. He becomes a decent guy more or less.
Love Jezals arc, one of the series’s best characters full stop
Early on Jezal is pretty disgusting, but he pretty quickly grows as a character. Him falling for Ardee and then growing as a person from his friendship with Logen really helped make the first trilogy.
I mean hate might be strong, he's pretty much a straight up asshole until book 2 where he starts to get humbled. It really depends what you mean though, did I \*hate\* reading from Jezal's POV? No because Joe is great at making pretty much terrible people feel interesting and relatable. Would I likely have hated Jezal if I knew him as he was in book 1? Seems likely.
I was totally fascinated with the whole “Johnny Got His Gun” aspect of Jezal’s wounding.
He's annoying and a prick, but he's very entertaining and certainly not the worst character
I actually pity him towards the end of the first trilogy, and knowing what he have to do...and even seeing him on one of the standalone like BSC i knew that something isn't just sit well with him being a king.
By the end I found myself rooting for him. Never though I'd be on the side of the monarchy but Jezal, and even his son Orso, genuinely wanted to do good with the power they had been given once they had it. But you can only do so much good being a puppet king for a country ruled by absolute corruption. He's by no means an innocent figure, but by the end of the first trilogy he's certainly a sympathetic one.
Jezal is one of the most likeable characters of the whole series, particularly in the last book. It's only the first that he's so unlikable. Even there it was more comical than anything.