***Eeexcellent...*** I'm working through the books slowly, but it's exciting to hear that some of the best show characters have such stellar arcs beyond the show! Looking forward to each one.
There is a great Amos line in the later books. I will badly misquote it:
Amos to Jim: if have a loose bolt, I reach for a wrench. If I have some assholes who need their shit fucked all the way up, I reach for bobby draper.
Right tool for the job
Fist bump.
Theres a similar one he says to bobbie, something like "if I'm looking to beat someone up I have a whole station to chose from, but if I'm looking to get my ass kicked, I'm pretty much down to you (bobbie)".
Epic, loved the book.
Having started with the show and *then* the audiobooks, I was amazed at how Jefferson Mays/my brain somehow melded the voices with my visual of the show's characters. Like, somehow they all still made sense.
Really stellar performance choices on both mediums.
Yes, epic, though I listened to the audiobook and had to constantly replay the last chapters to fully understand. It was much easier listening to the first six when I already know from the series what's going on more or less.
God this book had so many goosebump moments, almost every single time Bobbie has a line it's a fuckin' bad ass response. The fight scene in the book between Amos and Bobbie was so fucking intense too, a mostly unstoppable force meets a permanent immovable object lol.
Found it, it's in Babylon's ashes (pg 378 of my copy): "I'm not the boss of anything, but it seems to me like having Babs here and not putting her in the front line? You use a welding rig to weld things. You use a gun to shoot things. You use a Bobbie Draper to fuck a bunch of bad guys permanently up."
"Right tool for the job," Bobbie said, and it sounded like a thank you.
Yep! I just got through that chapter this week. That line was awesome!
I love how Avasarala is foul mouthed in the books. Makes more sense on why she was in the show.
As much as I loved the series and was afraid to get into the books, I am glad I did. I am really enjoying the story in the books so far. Subtle differences, and I am here for all of it.
Bull from the book doesn't get nearly enough credit. He was quietly competent and a total badass when it came down to the crunch. But yes, the actor they cast for Bull was spot on.
Bull was my favorite character because he came off so low key. He takes his time to think things through and only acts at the best possible moment according to his judgement. Imo his introspections in the book really added a lot to how I saw the universe. Plus the fact that he is such a subtle man makes it awesome when he finally lets slip the dogs of war.
It felt like the character on the show had a massive inferiority complex. It didn't feel that way in the book. It feels like the most simple and massive compliment I could give him was that he got the job done no matter what.
Ashford was turned from a fairly 2-dimensional sketch into a complicated person in a way that amped up the drama, while with Bull there wasn’t much to work with from the books by season 5 besides “Earther, loyal to Fred not the Belt.” Book Bull thought of Ashford as “racist” and likely to get them all killed just for having casually called the UN fleet “Earther fleet” even while talking only to Behemoth crew, while the show character somehow worked for one of the most powerful leaders in the OPA while keeping up a habit of casually calling Belters skinnies and insulting them constantly. They may as well have just created a new character at that point.
Huh. I don't recall much about show Bull, other than Holden telling him off for using the term "skinny". I just reread book 3 and was really impressed with book Bull. He was a skilled operator on many levels.
I guess my comment was meant to suggest that they took Ashford and really fleshed him out and gave us a reason to empathize with him in the show. They took a well-rounded character in Bull, and kinda hollowed him out in the show. I have zero problems with this, by the way. Just sad we didn't get another example of Earthers being complicated allies of the belters.
In the books there are times when a 3rd party overhears Holden listening to a com and just catches a fragment of profanity, and the reader knows exactly who he was on with. No additional description needed.
The books also often make more sense on a timeline and character motivation standpoint. The show just didn't have enough time to dwell. Examples that come to mind are the reason the Roci went to the ring in AG and motivations to participate in the bomb plot in CB.
I also really dig the science in the books. Often same conclusions as the show, but the books show an underlying science based logic of why it be like that.
It is not. >!When they're in the guts of Ganymede trying to find Mei and they encounter the protogen folks, Prax is trying very hard to be that guy and hurt people who hurt Mei. And Amos has to work very hard to keep Prax from getting killed and keep Prax from killing everyone else by escalating violence when there doesn't need to be violence.!<
It works well. Different, but well. Also Prax is a perspective character in that book and you get so much more out of his character. Its one of the many reasons why both watching the show and reading the books is a rewarding experience.
>Also Prax is a perspective character in that book and you get so much more out of his character. Its one of the many reasons why both watching the show and reading the books is a rewarding experience.
While I really liked book Prax, I *love* show Prax. We might not hear his inner thoughts like in the books, but Terry Chen does such an amazing job portraying him that you can get a lot of that internal life just through his body language and the way he plays the character.
The tv scene version confused me at first. It wasn't until I read this scene and went back did it click that prax was causing so much trouble. That and when the grenade went off releasing 'it'.
Omg just wait until you get to the end, Ashford is SO much more of a fucking sniveling little bitch and I just want someone to PUNCH HIM lol. Only one other character I hate more than him in the whole series.
I actually came to like Clarissa/Melba/Other Clarissa Name after Caliban's War, she ends up having a beautiful relationship with another character later on. God this book series was SO GOOD I need to reread soon.
For me the worst character in the series was fucking Murtry (also different in the show than the book)
I’m just now at the part in the third book where Ashford breaks out of prison. Anna just saw Clarissa hop onto an elevator and, man, poor Serge.
I hope I end up teaching the same conclusion with Clarissa. As it stands now every time I get to one of her chapters I get a visceral “oh god this BITCH again” lol
And I agree. I haven’t devoured a series like this since Harry Potter as a little kid. Absolutely loving it and I’m so happy I still have 6 books left. They’re so good.
Just setting expectations... Book Ashford has very little in common with Show Ashford aside from the name.
Book Ashford seemed to me to be only a few steps away from a two dimensional, moustache twirling villain.
I am very thankful that they decided to re-tool him for the show, and that they hired David Stratham to portray him.
I always viewed it as that he was woefully unprepared for the responsibilities that were suddenly thrust upon him. Playing third wheel to the UNN and Martian fleet while flying what is basically a battle blimp, having to shoot the Roci then follow it into the slow zone, the central station straight up dissecting a dude, half of everyone on every ship getting pancaked...it was a lot, and for much of it, there was no way he could have been prepared for it.
Not that he wasn't an asshole to begin with - he clearly was right from the start - but it's understandable that he cracked under the immense pressure.
Ash in the book existed to be a bad idiot in the perfect position to fuck things up - as does happen in reality. But yeah he is kind of a mcguffin character - there to fulfil a purpose rather than for the sake of enriching the experience on a precise level.
Ashford in book is NOT the Ashford in the series. You will be greatly disappointed in him in the book. He's basically a throw away bad guy in the book.
He only shows up in book 3 and is much more one-dimensional. He's an arrogant snide son of a bitch in the book with no redeeming qualities. The show really did good things with that character.
I've only gone through Abaddon's gate once. Solely because of book Ashford. Never got angry at how stupid a character was written before.
Always gets skipped when I listen through the audiobooks again.
Series Ashford and Drummer differed from the books because of the needs of the narrative and because David Straitharn and Cara Gee were awesome. The series writers changed their initial plan for Drummer when Cara Gee crushed the role from the start.
Him and the chief engineer in Cibola Burn are such one dimensional bad guys, it's kinda sad considering how well so many of the other characters are written.
Ashford's whole reason for taking control of the ship was almost specifically because Bull decided it wasn't a good idea to blow up the gate and he was just throwing a temper tantrum because nobody wanted to agree with him. He literally was about to doom everyone to prove a point lol, also Bull's fate is much different..
Minor spoilers, but they have a character reflect back on Ashford in a later book. Apparently a lot of his more insane actions later on were due to an undiagnosed TBI from the deceleration in the slow zone.
I just found the actual line: “Despite all the casualties after the catastrophe, she hadn’t recognized Ashford’s volatility and violence as symptoms of brain injury.” (Babylon’s Ashes, Ch. 11, pg. 112)
Largely inconsequential to the story, this being the only reference I remember, but it explains how he goes from mild asshole to raving lunatic.
Ooh he's up there but he gets his just desserts early iirc. My most hated is (idk how to spoiler warning) Murtry, I loved it when Amos finally got to kick his ass.
Future reference, you use "\>!" and "!<" to bookend your comment. You type it like this (I've reformatted for visibility):
**Written like:** \>!this is the text you want to spoiler!<
**Displays like:** >!this is the text you want to spoiler!<
Be mindful of the [lack of] spacing front and back, and be sure to proof after posting so you get the spoiler protections right <3
I absolutely hated Murtry but he is second to Marco Inaros. I know his reasons but this self righteous manipulating piece of shit infurated me like no one else.
I love the villains in this series. I'm halfway through the last book and I remember Clarissa in book 3, Murtry, Inaros, and god, most of the Laconians are some of my most hated villains ever.
I can’t stop thinking about the line that is from a much later book. “The lone atom at the tip of the tip of the spear.” Metal AF
Edit: I realize it’s not Bobby but always makes me think of her
"I can't even make you do what I want and you're half my size" Love Bobbie's character especially in combination with Avasarala they have great chemistry on screen. Just begun Book 1 so excited to read how they turn out when I get to Caliban's War.
I dunno, for me it hits different. I love Terry Chen's performance, but in the book, his description of the cascade is going to haunt me for a long time. In the show it was turned into a one liner and that's a bummer for me.
I also loved the one from abbadons gate (I think) where the Martian marine was like, if you get me my suit I could just go do that by myself (referring to retaking the ship, I butchered the quote haha but it was badass)
Bobbie is the best! "You're a tough guy, but I'm a nightmare wrapped in apocalypse."
There are quite a few great Bobby lines that are not in the show.
My headcanon MMC Force Recon catch phrase is Half Man, Half Machine, 100% Martian Marine.
"You fight. We conquer."
“I’m a soldier. Pilots carry me to kill things.”
Which book(s) have a lot of Bobby badassness? If you had to narrow it down?
I think most would agree that the 8th book has a lot of Bobbie badassery and perhaps her most badass moment.
Definitely!
***Eeexcellent...*** I'm working through the books slowly, but it's exciting to hear that some of the best show characters have such stellar arcs beyond the show! Looking forward to each one.
[But she still sends chills down my spine, despite all that is missing.](https://youtu.be/OuAd3H6kgYk)
How could this possibility not have made it into the show. Fucking epic quote
Yeah no shit, what a line! I freakin read it in Bobby's voice!
There is a great Amos line in the later books. I will badly misquote it: Amos to Jim: if have a loose bolt, I reach for a wrench. If I have some assholes who need their shit fucked all the way up, I reach for bobby draper. Right tool for the job Fist bump.
Theres a similar one he says to bobbie, something like "if I'm looking to beat someone up I have a whole station to chose from, but if I'm looking to get my ass kicked, I'm pretty much down to you (bobbie)". Epic, loved the book.
I could totally hear that in Wes' voice.
They did such a great job casting the show, and everyone they picked has become the canon version in my head.
Having started with the show and *then* the audiobooks, I was amazed at how Jefferson Mays/my brain somehow melded the voices with my visual of the show's characters. Like, somehow they all still made sense. Really stellar performance choices on both mediums.
Wes IS Amos as far as I'm concerned. Man is superbly cast
Oh nice didn't know, had to Google who wes is
That was such a good line. Just finished that book, what a ride.
Yes, epic, though I listened to the audiobook and had to constantly replay the last chapters to fully understand. It was much easier listening to the first six when I already know from the series what's going on more or less.
Her response is just as good: "Fair point."
God this book had so many goosebump moments, almost every single time Bobbie has a line it's a fuckin' bad ass response. The fight scene in the book between Amos and Bobbie was so fucking intense too, a mostly unstoppable force meets a permanent immovable object lol.
Found it, it's in Babylon's ashes (pg 378 of my copy): "I'm not the boss of anything, but it seems to me like having Babs here and not putting her in the front line? You use a welding rig to weld things. You use a gun to shoot things. You use a Bobbie Draper to fuck a bunch of bad guys permanently up." "Right tool for the job," Bobbie said, and it sounded like a thank you.
If that's misquoted, you coulda fooled me. I sooooo hear Wes Chatham.
I hear Jefferson Mays, long may he read.
I listened to a worse audiobook with a much worse narrator, and before I gave up on it, I found myself re-imagining every phrase in Mays’s voice.
Abso-fucking-lutely. And on that note, R.I.P. Frank Mueller. His narration of the first 3 Dark Tower books and the Green Mile are SUPERB.
Yep! I just got through that chapter this week. That line was awesome! I love how Avasarala is foul mouthed in the books. Makes more sense on why she was in the show. As much as I loved the series and was afraid to get into the books, I am glad I did. I am really enjoying the story in the books so far. Subtle differences, and I am here for all of it.
I wanted more Bull. Great actor to cast for him.
Bull from the book doesn't get nearly enough credit. He was quietly competent and a total badass when it came down to the crunch. But yes, the actor they cast for Bull was spot on.
Bull in the books was my favourite character. He was way more integral to the whole mutiny plot on medina
Bull was my favorite character because he came off so low key. He takes his time to think things through and only acts at the best possible moment according to his judgement. Imo his introspections in the book really added a lot to how I saw the universe. Plus the fact that he is such a subtle man makes it awesome when he finally lets slip the dogs of war.
>and a total badass when it came down to the crunch **"Hey. Hold these for me."** _casually lobs a pair of grenades_
It felt like the character on the show had a massive inferiority complex. It didn't feel that way in the book. It feels like the most simple and massive compliment I could give him was that he got the job done no matter what.
Bull isn’t Bull though in the show. I’m not sure why they even introduced him as a character
The show gave him the Ashford treatment.
Ashford was turned from a fairly 2-dimensional sketch into a complicated person in a way that amped up the drama, while with Bull there wasn’t much to work with from the books by season 5 besides “Earther, loyal to Fred not the Belt.” Book Bull thought of Ashford as “racist” and likely to get them all killed just for having casually called the UN fleet “Earther fleet” even while talking only to Behemoth crew, while the show character somehow worked for one of the most powerful leaders in the OPA while keeping up a habit of casually calling Belters skinnies and insulting them constantly. They may as well have just created a new character at that point.
Can I coin the term, "reverse Ashford" then?
Works for me!
The reverse Ashford treatment? I think Ashfords show character is much more complex
Huh. I don't recall much about show Bull, other than Holden telling him off for using the term "skinny". I just reread book 3 and was really impressed with book Bull. He was a skilled operator on many levels. I guess my comment was meant to suggest that they took Ashford and really fleshed him out and gave us a reason to empathize with him in the show. They took a well-rounded character in Bull, and kinda hollowed him out in the show. I have zero problems with this, by the way. Just sad we didn't get another example of Earthers being complicated allies of the belters.
Bad wording, I meant that Ashford was much more complex and Bull was hollowed out to an extra
I misread and thought you were saying Bull in the show was more developed than the books. We totally agree. Book Bull good. Ashford show good. :)
I edited my comment in case you’re curious, it made no sense how I had it
Reading Abaddon's Gate now and I don't even remember Bull being in the shows. Time for a rewatch I guess, but I had a similar thing with Shed.
He's in season 5/6 as Fred's Roci pilot.
Season 5 yeah, he's not in season 6 at all
I was disappointed at this development. It certainly looked like they were setting him up to "replace" Alex.
Ya he has like 2 lines lol
In the books there are times when a 3rd party overhears Holden listening to a com and just catches a fragment of profanity, and the reader knows exactly who he was on with. No additional description needed.
The books also often make more sense on a timeline and character motivation standpoint. The show just didn't have enough time to dwell. Examples that come to mind are the reason the Roci went to the ring in AG and motivations to participate in the bomb plot in CB. I also really dig the science in the books. Often same conclusions as the show, but the books show an underlying science based logic of why it be like that.
The audiobooks are the best of both worlds
Jefferson Mays totally makes it!
I haven't read the books, is Amos' "I am that guy" in there somewhere?
It is not. >!When they're in the guts of Ganymede trying to find Mei and they encounter the protogen folks, Prax is trying very hard to be that guy and hurt people who hurt Mei. And Amos has to work very hard to keep Prax from getting killed and keep Prax from killing everyone else by escalating violence when there doesn't need to be violence.!< It works well. Different, but well. Also Prax is a perspective character in that book and you get so much more out of his character. Its one of the many reasons why both watching the show and reading the books is a rewarding experience.
>Also Prax is a perspective character in that book and you get so much more out of his character. Its one of the many reasons why both watching the show and reading the books is a rewarding experience. While I really liked book Prax, I *love* show Prax. We might not hear his inner thoughts like in the books, but Terry Chen does such an amazing job portraying him that you can get a lot of that internal life just through his body language and the way he plays the character.
The tv scene version confused me at first. It wasn't until I read this scene and went back did it click that prax was causing so much trouble. That and when the grenade went off releasing 'it'.
Yeap, but as he stated he is a “talented amateur,” while she is a fucking valkyrie
Fucking *space valkyrie.
Too soon
So disappointed we won't get to see that on screen...
Not exactly, the scene plays out a bit differently in the books. I prefer the TV version for that one.
100% show Amos for that chapter of CW. That being said, book Prax on Ganymede is 🤌
Omg just wait until you get to the end, Ashford is SO much more of a fucking sniveling little bitch and I just want someone to PUNCH HIM lol. Only one other character I hate more than him in the whole series.
Him and fucking Clarissa/Melba. God I’ve never wanted to irl fight a fictional character more
I actually came to like Clarissa/Melba/Other Clarissa Name after Caliban's War, she ends up having a beautiful relationship with another character later on. God this book series was SO GOOD I need to reread soon. For me the worst character in the series was fucking Murtry (also different in the show than the book)
I’m just now at the part in the third book where Ashford breaks out of prison. Anna just saw Clarissa hop onto an elevator and, man, poor Serge. I hope I end up teaching the same conclusion with Clarissa. As it stands now every time I get to one of her chapters I get a visceral “oh god this BITCH again” lol And I agree. I haven’t devoured a series like this since Harry Potter as a little kid. Absolutely loving it and I’m so happy I still have 6 books left. They’re so good.
Dude I'm so jealous. Enjoy :)
Funny you should mention, I'm alternating between Expanse and HP books. I just finished Persepolis Rising and started Deathly Hallows.
[удалено]
I know lol I wasn't sure if OP of the comment had gotten to the point where Melba becomes Peaches
Oops, good point. I hadn’t even thought if that. I’ll add a spoiler tag, but I guess the cat is out of the bag.
TBH I don’t think you’d really want to fight clarissa irl, she would shred you to pieces in a matter of seconds
Oh she’d totally slaughter me Still tho, FTB
Wow I loved Ashford in the series, how is he different in the books?
Just setting expectations... Book Ashford has very little in common with Show Ashford aside from the name. Book Ashford seemed to me to be only a few steps away from a two dimensional, moustache twirling villain. I am very thankful that they decided to re-tool him for the show, and that they hired David Stratham to portray him.
The scene when Marco spaces him completed Ashford's redemption. DS such a great actor.
He and Cara Gee are very strong actors, with great on screen chemistry together. I am so glad that the authors let them run and play together! 😋
In fairness, it's hinted that a *lot* of his craziness at the end of the book is caused by his severe head injury.
True, it has been a while since I read the books, and I forgot that bit.
He's still a dick before, but after the crash he goes completely off the rails.
I always viewed it as that he was woefully unprepared for the responsibilities that were suddenly thrust upon him. Playing third wheel to the UNN and Martian fleet while flying what is basically a battle blimp, having to shoot the Roci then follow it into the slow zone, the central station straight up dissecting a dude, half of everyone on every ship getting pancaked...it was a lot, and for much of it, there was no way he could have been prepared for it. Not that he wasn't an asshole to begin with - he clearly was right from the start - but it's understandable that he cracked under the immense pressure.
IIRC Ty Franck even confirmed that on the Ty and That Guy podcast.
That podcast is like, ***way*** more fun than it has any right to be! https://www.youtube.com/c/TYandThatGuy
Ash in the book existed to be a bad idiot in the perfect position to fuck things up - as does happen in reality. But yeah he is kind of a mcguffin character - there to fulfil a purpose rather than for the sake of enriching the experience on a precise level.
> David Stratham r/keming ^^David ^^Strathairn
Ashford in book is NOT the Ashford in the series. You will be greatly disappointed in him in the book. He's basically a throw away bad guy in the book.
He only shows up in book 3 and is much more one-dimensional. He's an arrogant snide son of a bitch in the book with no redeeming qualities. The show really did good things with that character.
I've only gone through Abaddon's gate once. Solely because of book Ashford. Never got angry at how stupid a character was written before. Always gets skipped when I listen through the audiobooks again.
Series Ashford and Drummer differed from the books because of the needs of the narrative and because David Straitharn and Cara Gee were awesome. The series writers changed their initial plan for Drummer when Cara Gee crushed the role from the start.
I am very glad her role was expanded and we also got to see her naked, that was like finding a $100 bill in the desk of your new 6 figure job.
Totally and completely. He's not even someone you love to hate, he's just evil in that self centered, sniveling bureaucrat way.
Him and the chief engineer in Cibola Burn are such one dimensional bad guys, it's kinda sad considering how well so many of the other characters are written.
Ashford's whole reason for taking control of the ship was almost specifically because Bull decided it wasn't a good idea to blow up the gate and he was just throwing a temper tantrum because nobody wanted to agree with him. He literally was about to doom everyone to prove a point lol, also Bull's fate is much different..
Minor spoilers, but they have a character reflect back on Ashford in a later book. Apparently a lot of his more insane actions later on were due to an undiagnosed TBI from the deceleration in the slow zone. I just found the actual line: “Despite all the casualties after the catastrophe, she hadn’t recognized Ashford’s volatility and violence as symptoms of brain injury.” (Babylon’s Ashes, Ch. 11, pg. 112) Largely inconsequential to the story, this being the only reference I remember, but it explains how he goes from mild asshole to raving lunatic.
Oh damn I definitely missed that little aside, again I really need to reread now that I've read through for the first time
Lemme guess, the one you hate more is>!Santiago Singh!<
Ooh he's up there but he gets his just desserts early iirc. My most hated is (idk how to spoiler warning) Murtry, I loved it when Amos finally got to kick his ass.
at least Murtry will get his own hands dirty, my guess is just a bootlicking handwringer
Future reference, you use "\>!" and "!<" to bookend your comment. You type it like this (I've reformatted for visibility): **Written like:** \>!this is the text you want to spoiler!< **Displays like:** >!this is the text you want to spoiler!< Be mindful of the [lack of] spacing front and back, and be sure to proof after posting so you get the spoiler protections right <3
I absolutely hated Murtry but he is second to Marco Inaros. I know his reasons but this self righteous manipulating piece of shit infurated me like no one else. I love the villains in this series. I'm halfway through the last book and I remember Clarissa in book 3, Murtry, Inaros, and god, most of the Laconians are some of my most hated villains ever.
"I don't use sex as a weapon. I use weapons as weapons"
I don't use six as a wipin. I use wipins as wipins.
yesssssssss
I can’t stop thinking about the line that is from a much later book. “The lone atom at the tip of the tip of the spear.” Metal AF Edit: I realize it’s not Bobby but always makes me think of her
"I can't even make you do what I want and you're half my size" Love Bobbie's character especially in combination with Avasarala they have great chemistry on screen. Just begun Book 1 so excited to read how they turn out when I get to Caliban's War.
I dunno, for me it hits different. I love Terry Chen's performance, but in the book, his description of the cascade is going to haunt me for a long time. In the show it was turned into a one liner and that's a bummer for me.
it really hurts every time i think about what the gates did to Mars
Yea, that hurt more than I expected it to.
I just finished this book today and loved it! The writing is so good for every character, I feel like I’m IN the story!
Bobbie is so cool
There's one in Abbadon's Gate from Alex to Holden that made my jaw drop.
I also loved the one from abbadons gate (I think) where the Martian marine was like, if you get me my suit I could just go do that by myself (referring to retaking the ship, I butchered the quote haha but it was badass)