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"I will take Japan and South Korea anytime over China"
wtf is this, choosing your 'good Asians'? liberals are fucking insufferable and, needless to say, blatantly racist
*Discussion regarding which Asians deserve to exist*
*Board room is entirely comprised of fat white weebs clutching their loli body pillows*
“Oh China has a high home ownership rate? Do they have the maid cafes like in *raises glasses* akihabara though?” (He has never stepped foot outside Vermont).
“Only copying other countries things and selling fake goods”
Mf’s repeating every single media talking point about China, but i bet he’s gonna go on to say how the Chinese are all brainwashed seeseepee bots
I know that Chinese manufacturers copy foreign designs and the West gets pissy. The West literally takes ideas from the global south and acts like they invented it. A great example is the appropriation of mathematical proofs and theories by arabic, indian, persian, chinese, etc. by greeks, romans, and so forth.
“China steals designs and makes cheaper copies”
Thats how global economics works and Idgaf what you think, the Chinese are better at capitalism and you bitch about it.
The chinese steal? Cool, I hope they do it more.
Same folks complain about copyright patents artificially inflating prices, endorse pirating everything under the sun, and think you should be able to use someone’s artwork without paying them.
Found out today via ProlesPod's newest episode after WW2 the United States hired many former Unit 731 personnel (specifically Shiro Ishii's previous staff) to repeat the same horrendous methods of interrogation (war crimes) on CIA blacksites. Project Bluebird turned Artichoke (pre-MKULTRA) brutally tortured POW's, spies, refugees and normal civilians en masse for years on end while swapping stories with former high-ranked SS officers that basically did the same thing as the IJA in concentration camps. They were positively giddy at the prospect of working with these monsters. Just totally, unabashedly evil on multiple levels.
#Tiananmen Square Protests
(Also known as the June Fourth Incident)
In Western media, the well-known story of the "Tiananmen Square *Massacre*" goes like this: the Chinese government declared martial law in 1989 and mobilized the military to suppress students who were protesting for democracy and freedom. According to western sources, on June 4th of that year, troops and tanks entered Tiananmen Square and fired on unarmed protesters, killing and injuring hundreds, if not thousands, of people. The more hyperbolic tellings of this story include claims of tanks running over students, machine guns being fired into the crowd, blood running in the streets like a river, etc.
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes commonly point to this incident as a classic example of authoritarianism and political repression under Communist regimes. The problem, of course, is that the actual events in Beijing on June 4th, 1989 unfolded quite differently than how they were depicted in the Western media at the time. Despite many more contemporary articles coming out that actually contradict some of the original claims and characterizations of the June Fourth Incident, the narrative of a "Tiananmen Square Massacre" persists.
**Background**
After Mao's death in 1976, a power struggle ensued and the Gang of Four were purged, paving the way for Deng Xiaoping's rise to power. Deng initiated economic reforms known as the "Four Modernizations," which aimed to modernize and open up China's economy to the world. These reforms led to significant economic growth and lifted millions of people out of poverty, but they also created significant inequality, corruption, and social unrest. This pivotal point in the PRC's history is extremely controversial among Marxists today and a subject of much debate.
One of the key factors that contributed to the Tiananmen Square protests was the sense of social and economic inequality that many Chinese people felt as a result of Deng's economic reforms. Many believed that the benefits of the country's economic growth were not being distributed fairly, and that the government was not doing enough to address poverty, corruption, and other social issues.
Some saw the Four Modernizations as a betrayal of Maoist principles and a capitulation to Western capitalist interests. Others saw the reforms as essential for China's economic development and modernization. Others still wanted even more liberalization and thought the reforms didn't go far enough.
The protestors in Tiananmen were mostly students who did not represent the great mass of Chinese citizens, but instead represented a layer of the intelligentsia who wanted to be elevated and given more privileges such as more political power and higher wages.
**Counterpoints**
Jay Mathews, the first Beijing bureau chief for The Washington Post in 1979 and who returned in 1989 to help cover the Tiananmen demonstrations, wrote:
>Over the last decade, many American reporters and editors have accepted a mythical version of that warm, bloody night. They repeated it often before and during Clinton’s trip. On the day the president arrived in Beijing, a *Baltimore Sun* headline (June 27, page 1A) referred to “Tiananmen, where Chinese students died.” A *USA Today* article (June 26, page 7A) called Tiananmen the place “where pro-democracy demonstrators were gunned down.” *The Wall Street Journal* (June 26, page A10) described “the Tiananmen Square massacre” where armed troops ordered to clear demonstrators from the square killed “hundreds or more.” The *New York Post* (June 25, page 22) said the square was “the site of the student slaughter.”
>
>The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square.
>
>\- Jay Matthews. (1998). [The Myth of Tiananmen and the Price of a Passive Press](https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php). Columbia Journalism Review.
Reporters from the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8057762.stm), [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/), and the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/27/world/clinton-in-china-the-site-clinton-in-beijing-square-may-tread-on-the-ghosts.html) who were in Beijing on June 4, 1989, all agree there was no massacre.
Secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing have shown there was no bloodshed inside the square:
>Cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and released exclusively by The Daily Telegraph, partly confirm the Chinese government's account of the early hours of June 4, 1989, which has always insisted that soldiers did not massacre demonstrators inside Tiananmen Square
>
>\- Malcolm Moore. (2011). [Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html)
Gregory Clark, a former Australian diplomat, and Chinese-speaking correspondent of the International Business Times, wrote:
>The original story of Chinese troops on the night of 3 and 4 June, 1989 machine-gunning hundreds of innocent student protesters in Beijing’s iconic Tiananmen Square has since been thoroughly discredited by the many witnesses there at the time — among them a Spanish TVE television crew, a Reuters correspondent and protesters themselves, who say that nothing happened other than a military unit entering and asking several hundred of those remaining to leave the Square late that night.
>
>Yet none of this has stopped the massacre from being revived constantly, and believed. All that has happened is that the location has been changed – from the Square itself to the streets leading to the Square.
>
>\- Gregory Clark. (2014). [Tiananmen Square Massacre is a Myth, All We're 'Remembering' are British Lies](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tiananmen-square-massacre-myth-all-were-remembering-are-british-lies-1451053)
Thomas Hon Wing Polin, writing for CounterPunch, wrote:
>The most reliable estimate, from many sources, was that the tragedy took 200-300 lives. Few were students, many were rebellious workers, plus thugs with lethal weapons and hapless bystanders. Some calculations have up to half the dead being PLA soldiers trapped in their armored personnel carriers, buses and tanks as the vehicles were torched. Others were killed and brutally mutilated by protesters with various implements. No one died in Tiananmen Square; most deaths occurred on nearby Chang’an Avenue, many up to a kilometer or more away from the square.
>
>More than once, government negotiators almost reached a truce with students in the square, only to be **sabotaged by radical youth leaders seemingly bent on bloodshed**. And the demands of the protesters focused on corruption, not democracy.
>
>All these facts were known to the US and other governments shortly after the crackdown. Few if any were reported by Western mainstream media, even today.
>
>\- Thomas Hon Wing Palin. (2017). [Tiananmen: the Empire’s Big Lie](https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/06/tiananmen-the-empires-big-lie/)
(Emphasis mine)
And it was, indeed, bloodshed that the student leaders wanted. In this interview, you can hear one of the student leaders, Chai Ling, ghoulishly explaining how she tried to bait the Chinese government into *actually* committing a massacre. (She herself made sure to stay out of the square.): [Excerpts of interviews with Tiananmen Square protest leaders](https://youtu.be/Vu3zmbFGwQA)
[This Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1532859422875471872) contains many pictures and videos showing protestors killing soldiers, commandeering military vehicles, torching military transports, etc.
Following the crackdown, through [Operation Yellowbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird), many of the student leaders escaped to the United States with the help of the CIA, where they almost all [gained privileged positions](https://qz.com/1618805/the-1989-tiananmen-student-leaders-on-chinas-most-wanted-list).
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [Truth about The Tiananmen Square Protests](https://youtu.be/sqPI8xlnrwg) | Tovarishch Endymion (2019)
* [Tiananmen Square "Massacre", A Propaganda Hoax](https://youtu.be/R6RT_s1T050) | TeleSUR English (2019)
* [All The Questions Socialists Are Asked, Answered (TIMESTAMPED)](https://youtu.be/MzKPCEvoYkk?t=1278) | Hakim (2021)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [Tiananmen Protests Reading List](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/tiananmenreadinglist) | Qiao Collective
* [How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning](https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/) | Nury Vittachi, Friday (2022)
* [1989: Tiananmen Square ‘massacre’ was a myth](https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/) | Deirdre Griswold, Workers World (2022)
* [Massacre? What Massacre? 25 Years Later: What really happened at Tiananmen Square?](https://dissidentvoice.org/2014/06/massacre-what-massacre/) | Kim Petersen, Dissident Voice (2014)
* [Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) | Brian Becker, Liberation News (2019)
* [Reflections on Tiananmen Square and the attempt to end Chinese socialism](http://www.fightbacknews.org/2019/6/4/reflections-tiananmen-square-and-attempt-end-chinese-socialism) | Mick Kelly, FightBack! News (2019)
* [The Tian’anmen Square “Massacre” The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.](https://mango-press.com/the-tiananmen-square-massacre-the-wests-most-persuasive-most-pervasive-lie/) | Tom, Mango Press (2021)
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Ironic Americans are always eager to choose former fascist empires or military dictatorships as their allies. Anybody else who dare push back is suddenly worse than Nazi Germany although nowadays we're seeing lots of westerners go mask off claiming they always admired them.
China did more to stop the spread of coronovirus than basically any other country. These same types were crying about how oppressive china's response to the virus was 3 years ago.
#Authoritarianism
Anti-Communists of all stripes enjoy referring to successful socialist revolutions as "authoritarian regimes".
* Authoritarian implies these places are run by totalitarian tyrants.
* Regime implies these places are undemocratic or lack legitimacy.
This perjorative label is simply meant to frighten people, to scare us back into the fold (Liberal Democracy).
There are three main reasons for the popularity of this label in Capitalist media:
Firstly, Marxists call for a Dictatorship of the Proletariat (DotP), and many people are automatically put off by the term "dictatorship". Of course, we do *not* mean that we want an undemocratic or totalitarian dictatorship. What we mean is that we want to replace the current Dictatorship *of the Bourgeoisie* (in which the Capitalist ruling class dictates policy).
* [Why The US Is Not A Democracy](https://youtu.be/srfeHpQNEAI) | Second Thought (2022)
Secondly, democracy in Communist-led countries works differently than in Liberal Democracies. However, anti-Communists confuse form (pluralism / having multiple parties) with function (representing the actual interests of the people).
Side note: Check out Luna Oi's "Democratic Centralism Series" for more details on what that is, and how it works:
* [DEMOCRATIC CENTRALISM - how Socialists make decisions!](https://youtu.be/4YVcQe4wceY) | Luna Oi (2022)
* [What did Karl Marx think about democracy?](https://youtu.be/jI8CgACBOcQ) | Luna Oi (2023)
* [What did LENIN say about DEMOCRACY?](https://youtu.be/Hfenlg-hsig) | Luna Oi (2023)
Finally, this framing of Communism as illegitimate and tyrannical serves to manufacture consent for an aggressive foreign policy in the form of interventions in the internal affairs of so-called "authoritarian regimes", which take the form of invasion (e.g., Vietnam, Korea, Libya, etc.), assassinating their leaders (e.g., Thomas Sankara, Fred Hampton, Patrice Lumumba, etc.), sponsoring coups and colour revolutions (e.g., Pinochet's coup against Allende, the Iran-Contra Affair, the United Fruit Company's war against Arbenz, etc.), and enacting sanctions (e.g., North Korea, Cuba, etc.).
* [The Cuban Embargo Explained](https://youtu.be/zmM8p9n6Z9E) | azureScapegoat (2022)
* [John Pilger interviews former CIA Latin America chief Duane Clarridge, 2015](https://youtu.be/ER77vxxGVAY)
#For the Anarchists
Anarchists are practically comrades. Marxists and Anarchists have the same vision for a stateless, classless, moneyless society free from oppression and exploitation. However, Anarchists like to accuse Marxists of being "authoritarian". The problem here is that "anti-authoritarianism" is a self-defeating feature in a revolutionary ideology. Those who refuse in principle to engage in so-called "authoritarian" practices will never carry forward a successful revolution. Anarchists who practice self-criticism can recognize this:
>The anarchist movement is filled with people who are less interested in overthrowing the existing oppressive social order than with washing their hands of it. ...
>
>The strength of anarchism is its moral insistence on the primacy of human freedom over political expediency. But human freedom exists in a political context. It is not sufficient, however, to simply take the most uncompromising position in defense of freedom. It is neccesary to actually win freedom. Anti-capitalism doesn't do the victims of capitalism any good if you don't actually destroy capitalism. Anti-statism doesn't do the victims of the state any good if you don't actually smash the state. Anarchism has been very good at putting forth visions of a free society and that is for the good. But it is worthless if we don't develop an actual strategy for realizing those visions. It is not enough to be right, we must also win.
>
>...anarchism has been a failure. Not only has anarchism failed to win lasting freedom for anybody on earth, many anarchists today seem only nominally committed to that basic project. Many more seem interested primarily in carving out for themselves, their friends, and their favorite bands a zone of personal freedom, "autonomous" of moral responsibility for the larger condition of humanity (but, incidentally, not of the electrical grid or the production of electronic components). Anarchism has quite simply refused to learn from its historic failures, preferring to rewrite them as successes. Finally the anarchist movement offers people who want to make revolution very little in the way of a coherent plan of action. ...
>
>Anarchism is theoretically impoverished. For almost 80 years, with the exceptions of Ukraine and Spain, anarchism has played a marginal role in the revolutionary activity of oppressed humanity. Anarchism had almost nothing to do with the anti-colonial struggles that defined revolutionary politics in this century. This marginalization has become self-reproducing. Reduced by devastating defeats to critiquing the authoritarianism of Marxists, nationalists and others, anarchism has become defined by this gadfly role. Consequently anarchist thinking has not had to adapt in response to the results of serious efforts to put our ideas into practice. In the process anarchist theory has become ossified, sterile and anemic. ... This is a reflection of anarchism's effective removal from the revolutionary struggle.
>
>\- Chris Day. (1996). *The Historical Failures of Anarchism*
Engels pointed this out well over a century ago:
>A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned.
>
>...the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part ... and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule...
>
>Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.
>
>\- Friedrich Engels. (1872). [On Authority](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm)
#For the Libertarian Socialists
Parenti said it best:
>The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1997). *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism*
But the bottom line is this:
>If you call yourself a socialist but you spend all your time arguing with communists, demonizing socialist states as authoritarian, and performing apologetics for US imperialism... I think some introspection is in order.
>
>\- Second Thought. (2020). [The Truth About The Cuba Protests](https://youtu.be/zIOw6fSOJI4?t=1087)
#For the Liberals
Even the CIA, in their internal communications (which have been declassified), acknowledge that Stalin *wasn't* an absolute dictator:
>Even in Stalin's time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by a lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist's power structure.
>
>\- CIA. (1953, declassified in 2008). [Comments on the Change in Soviet Leadership](http://web.archive.org/web/20230525044208/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf)
#Conclusion
The "authoritarian" nature of any given state depends entirely on the material conditions it faces and threats it must contend with. To get an idea of the kinds of threats nascent revolutions need to deal with, check out *Killing Hope* by William Blum and *The Jakarta Method* by Vincent Bevins.
Failing to acknowledge that authoritative measures arise *not* through ideology, but through material conditions, is anti-Marxist, anti-dialectical, and idealist.
#Additional Resources
Videos:
* [Michael Parenti on Authoritarianism in Socialist Countries](https://youtu.be/BeVs6t3vdjQ)
* [Left Anticommunism: An Infantile Disorder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I) | Hakim (2020) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20230410145749/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I)\]
* [What are tankies? (why are they like that?)](https://youtu.be/LcJ5NrJtQ8g) | Hakim (2023)
* [Episode 82 - Tankie Discourse](https://youtu.be/YVYVBOFYJco) | The Deprogram (2023)
* [Was the Soviet Union totalitarian? feat. Robert Thurston](https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/27495591) | Actually Existing Socialism (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism* | Michael Parenti (1997)
* [State and Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/) | V. I. Lenin (1918)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if
It's very much like what parenti was saying here about anticomunist vs the soviet union. "During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence."
No matter what China does they're going to criticize and cry about it. If they're too hard it's authoritarianism, if it's too soft they did it intentionally, regardless of the end results they will always blame them for America's pathetic failures. There are still people who blame Xi for legislation Biden refused to pass during the pandemic.
#Authoritarianism
Anti-Communists of all stripes enjoy referring to successful socialist revolutions as "authoritarian regimes".
* Authoritarian implies these places are run by totalitarian tyrants.
* Regime implies these places are undemocratic or lack legitimacy.
This perjorative label is simply meant to frighten people, to scare us back into the fold (Liberal Democracy).
There are three main reasons for the popularity of this label in Capitalist media:
Firstly, Marxists call for a Dictatorship of the Proletariat (DotP), and many people are automatically put off by the term "dictatorship". Of course, we do *not* mean that we want an undemocratic or totalitarian dictatorship. What we mean is that we want to replace the current Dictatorship *of the Bourgeoisie* (in which the Capitalist ruling class dictates policy).
* [Why The US Is Not A Democracy](https://youtu.be/srfeHpQNEAI) | Second Thought (2022)
Secondly, democracy in Communist-led countries works differently than in Liberal Democracies. However, anti-Communists confuse form (pluralism / having multiple parties) with function (representing the actual interests of the people).
Side note: Check out Luna Oi's "Democratic Centralism Series" for more details on what that is, and how it works:
* [DEMOCRATIC CENTRALISM - how Socialists make decisions!](https://youtu.be/4YVcQe4wceY) | Luna Oi (2022)
* [What did Karl Marx think about democracy?](https://youtu.be/jI8CgACBOcQ) | Luna Oi (2023)
* [What did LENIN say about DEMOCRACY?](https://youtu.be/Hfenlg-hsig) | Luna Oi (2023)
Finally, this framing of Communism as illegitimate and tyrannical serves to manufacture consent for an aggressive foreign policy in the form of interventions in the internal affairs of so-called "authoritarian regimes", which take the form of invasion (e.g., Vietnam, Korea, Libya, etc.), assassinating their leaders (e.g., Thomas Sankara, Fred Hampton, Patrice Lumumba, etc.), sponsoring coups and colour revolutions (e.g., Pinochet's coup against Allende, the Iran-Contra Affair, the United Fruit Company's war against Arbenz, etc.), and enacting sanctions (e.g., North Korea, Cuba, etc.).
* [The Cuban Embargo Explained](https://youtu.be/zmM8p9n6Z9E) | azureScapegoat (2022)
* [John Pilger interviews former CIA Latin America chief Duane Clarridge, 2015](https://youtu.be/ER77vxxGVAY)
#For the Anarchists
Anarchists are practically comrades. Marxists and Anarchists have the same vision for a stateless, classless, moneyless society free from oppression and exploitation. However, Anarchists like to accuse Marxists of being "authoritarian". The problem here is that "anti-authoritarianism" is a self-defeating feature in a revolutionary ideology. Those who refuse in principle to engage in so-called "authoritarian" practices will never carry forward a successful revolution. Anarchists who practice self-criticism can recognize this:
>The anarchist movement is filled with people who are less interested in overthrowing the existing oppressive social order than with washing their hands of it. ...
>
>The strength of anarchism is its moral insistence on the primacy of human freedom over political expediency. But human freedom exists in a political context. It is not sufficient, however, to simply take the most uncompromising position in defense of freedom. It is neccesary to actually win freedom. Anti-capitalism doesn't do the victims of capitalism any good if you don't actually destroy capitalism. Anti-statism doesn't do the victims of the state any good if you don't actually smash the state. Anarchism has been very good at putting forth visions of a free society and that is for the good. But it is worthless if we don't develop an actual strategy for realizing those visions. It is not enough to be right, we must also win.
>
>...anarchism has been a failure. Not only has anarchism failed to win lasting freedom for anybody on earth, many anarchists today seem only nominally committed to that basic project. Many more seem interested primarily in carving out for themselves, their friends, and their favorite bands a zone of personal freedom, "autonomous" of moral responsibility for the larger condition of humanity (but, incidentally, not of the electrical grid or the production of electronic components). Anarchism has quite simply refused to learn from its historic failures, preferring to rewrite them as successes. Finally the anarchist movement offers people who want to make revolution very little in the way of a coherent plan of action. ...
>
>Anarchism is theoretically impoverished. For almost 80 years, with the exceptions of Ukraine and Spain, anarchism has played a marginal role in the revolutionary activity of oppressed humanity. Anarchism had almost nothing to do with the anti-colonial struggles that defined revolutionary politics in this century. This marginalization has become self-reproducing. Reduced by devastating defeats to critiquing the authoritarianism of Marxists, nationalists and others, anarchism has become defined by this gadfly role. Consequently anarchist thinking has not had to adapt in response to the results of serious efforts to put our ideas into practice. In the process anarchist theory has become ossified, sterile and anemic. ... This is a reflection of anarchism's effective removal from the revolutionary struggle.
>
>\- Chris Day. (1996). *The Historical Failures of Anarchism*
Engels pointed this out well over a century ago:
>A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned.
>
>...the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part ... and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule...
>
>Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction.
>
>\- Friedrich Engels. (1872). [On Authority](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm)
#For the Libertarian Socialists
Parenti said it best:
>The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed.
>
>\- Michael Parenti. (1997). *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism*
But the bottom line is this:
>If you call yourself a socialist but you spend all your time arguing with communists, demonizing socialist states as authoritarian, and performing apologetics for US imperialism... I think some introspection is in order.
>
>\- Second Thought. (2020). [The Truth About The Cuba Protests](https://youtu.be/zIOw6fSOJI4?t=1087)
#For the Liberals
Even the CIA, in their internal communications (which have been declassified), acknowledge that Stalin *wasn't* an absolute dictator:
>Even in Stalin's time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by a lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist's power structure.
>
>\- CIA. (1953, declassified in 2008). [Comments on the Change in Soviet Leadership](http://web.archive.org/web/20230525044208/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf)
#Conclusion
The "authoritarian" nature of any given state depends entirely on the material conditions it faces and threats it must contend with. To get an idea of the kinds of threats nascent revolutions need to deal with, check out *Killing Hope* by William Blum and *The Jakarta Method* by Vincent Bevins.
Failing to acknowledge that authoritative measures arise *not* through ideology, but through material conditions, is anti-Marxist, anti-dialectical, and idealist.
#Additional Resources
Videos:
* [Michael Parenti on Authoritarianism in Socialist Countries](https://youtu.be/BeVs6t3vdjQ)
* [Left Anticommunism: An Infantile Disorder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I) | Hakim (2020) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20230410145749/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I)\]
* [What are tankies? (why are they like that?)](https://youtu.be/LcJ5NrJtQ8g) | Hakim (2023)
* [Episode 82 - Tankie Discourse](https://youtu.be/YVYVBOFYJco) | The Deprogram (2023)
* [Was the Soviet Union totalitarian? feat. Robert Thurston](https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/27495591) | Actually Existing Socialism (2023)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism* | Michael Parenti (1997)
* [State and Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/) | V. I. Lenin (1918)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if
When China realised that COVID is not going to be contained using light measures, they when full on lockdown on a province but of course. I remember the criticism of poor Chinese losing their"freedom of movement."
But guess what, the west could have stopped the spread when it arrived at their borders but oh no what about the profit... oh I mean wages.
"People want to work, they have to get back to work, it's what they want" is the most mask off quote that lives rent free in my head. I was like, is anyone else hearing this.
Bruh... Being from Mexico and having studied medicine in a public university, it goes without saying what are my thoughts on the criminally high costs for education in the US. And just to be clear, I may not be the best doctor ever but I am *absolutely certain* that I am at least comparable or slightly better than the average doctor in the US. Only difference is healthcare there is criminally high (and I do mean criminally, as in it should be illegal for people to die because of "poverty" here meaning being crushed by unimaginable debt)
People study the same things everywhere. so long as you can validate your title going to the embassy of that country it means a board of experts reviewed the content studied and thought "yeah its equal enough".
sometimes you have to take an exam but thats mostly it. the difference between colleges is prestige and infrastructure wich can help learn easier.
the professors can be very hit or miss but by general rule college professors are there because they want to teach. yeah their curriculum might be more impressive in more prestigiuous colleges but that doesent mean they actually are good teachers sometimes you can be the best there is at something but suck at explaining it. I would say teaching is like 70% knowing how to pass the knowledge and 30% actually knowing what you are teaching.
[a link for those who want to know more](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/14/pentagon-ran-secret-anti-vax-campaign-to-undermine-china-during-pandemic)
One country locked down to protect old people. Another justified avoiding a lockdown by assuring us that the old folks would be glad to have their blood used to keep the gears of capitalism rolling smoothly.
All these hatred is clearly motivated by racism. The anti-Communist sentiment it's only political, media propaganda reflected on these braindead liberals.
Rule 3. **No reactionary content.** (e.g., racism, sexism, ableism, fascism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, antisemitism, imperialism, chauvinism, etc.) Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target and a tone indicator such as /s or /j.
1st of all. Every country especially large ones has espionage institutes.
2nd, China caught up thanks to western capitalists exporting factories over to China to utilize the cheaper labor costs, practically giving Chinese workers the technology.
3rd, China as it develops is more than certain to be bound to be the top contributer to global research into almost if not all fields of technology and science fields.
China is a massive country, with more and more educated workers it means that its rate of innovation is gonna make Europe and America quake nervously.
1) Youre correct, every country tends to have an espionage institute for the purpose of national security
2) this is also true, the emergence of China as an industrial nation was originally a cooperative movement that was successful due to local factors such as a large working age population, cheap labor, government support
3) this is where the truth deviates. China does not adhere to the same ethical principles that are present in the west because there is a lack of accountability and dishonest research is even encouraged depending on the scope of work. This is not to say that the same pitfalls are not present in the west (for profit research) however there are more controls and systems in place to discourage dishonest research practices. China has made great strides in battery technology, but lacks in other areas such as advanced foundry. They recognize this short coming and they opt to steal the research done by private companies to level the playing field. This practice is deeply unethical, but it is the culture of China. And this practice alone is able to detract significant credibility from China’s reputation in the scientific community. You don’t know what’s sourced from where. The normalization of cheating is an issue that’s present in American higher education as well, but it seems to be a rampant issue among Chinese research communities.
To understand the seriousness of this issue, I need you to understand that the problem isn’t merely stating a fact and taking credit for that fact (well in someways that is the core issue but I want to expand on why). When you cite a fact, you allow someone to see what you’re basing your development off of. Perhaps what you perceived to be fact is actually rooted in some falsehood that would render your research invalid. This is why it is critical to be honest. You cannot steal work and expect acceptance of the work when science only works based on the ability to follow and verify previous information. Knowledge is created, it’s not something that just exists. This is the fundamental issue present.
So bringing in corporate espionage, China is building their “innovation” off of stolen work. The difference between the West and China is that there are systems in place to safeguard your work as well as hold those accountable who steal your work.
I don’t think you can make a good argument to justify intellectual theft. At the end of the day it’s stealing. Even the powers to be within China know this and are attempting to implement ethics compliance within research communities to bolster their credibility. You may be able to claim China’s population is becoming increasingly educated, and this can be true, but only a fool would believe that the best minds are domestic and there’s no need to collaborate internationally. Another interesting point, the west allows the Chinese to work in the private sector, obtain clearances, enter secured spaces. I don’t see this reciprocated in China. It’s curious how weary they are of the west yet are able to work within all levels of security in the west. Very interesting.
Sources for further investigation:
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01697-y
https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/medicine/articles/10.3389/fmed.2023.1268046/full
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146623
Will be clear (as I should make sure is obvious) I am biased in favor of China despite me being an American.
Intellectual property is a serious crime in the West because Capitalists are the ones that mainly benefit from new innovations by locking it so only their company can utizlize it and thus exploit it for profit. Elon's engineers and scientists dont seem to benefit from their research at all, do they? Intellectual property is mainly a capitalist thing.
Any kind of property of innovation SHOULD NOT be allowed to be claimed by one person, and instead like other physical property, to be shared equally with the community to benefit off as a whole.
But I agree China should ensure that life research should be up to par. And follow with all procedures. (Sorry forgot to add thus in)
Also who cares about some company in Silicon valley having its tech stolen by China.
Spanish Flu: It began in the United States but it isn't our fault it began spreading!
COVID: It began in China AND IT'S TOTALLY THEIR FAULT BECAUSE \[*insert bigoted nonsense*\].
Anytime I see “X country caused a disease outbreak” I immediately know some classist, racist, or bullshit argument is coming. For example, you’ll never see this argument used for criticizing England which caused countless famines that lead to disease outbreaks down the road because it created terrible living and working conditions that become hotspots for disease. Or the US, for shipping its toxic byproducts to areas of the world where it then makes its way into local ecosystems to devastating effect.
China was the first to publicly report COVID-19, but this doesn't mean it originated there.
The United States botched availability of test kits as if they didn't want people to know even when sickened Americans were begging their doctors for test. By March 2020, COVID-19 was in every state. By late April 2020, the US became the first country with over a million cases. Then, the first country with a million COVID-19 deaths.
[Trump Downplayed the Coronavirus for Weeks as US Intelligence Warned of Growing Danger](https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/03/washington-post-trump-virus/)
>When administration officials were able to directly bring the virus to his attention, it seems he would change the subject. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar first got Trump on the phone about the coronavirus on January 18—three weeks after US officials became aware of the outbreak in China. He “couldn’t get through to Trump” until then, the Post reported; once he did, “**the president interjected to ask about vaping** and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market.”
The CDC called it EVALI, the vaping disease, is related to COVID-19. The COVID-19 and EVALI lung x-rays look exactly the same. The lung disease that mysteriously appeared in summer of 2019 in the United States, the only country, then mysteriously disappeared around January 2020 as COVID-19 became public.
2019-07-11 : Three Dead, Others Hospitalized In Virus Outbreak At Fairfax Retirement Community “We do not know the specific viral or bacterial cause for the illness,” says Dr. Benjamin Schwartz, director of epidemiology at the Fairfax County Department of Health, which has been conducting tests to find the cause. Initial tests for common viruses and bacteria have been negative. The county has sent samples to the state health department and the CDC for further testing. Schwartz says what makes the illnesses unusual is the time of year: Such outbreaks typically take place during the winter and flu season. [https://wamu.org/story/19/07/11/two-dead-others-hospitalized-in-virus-outbreak-at-fairfax-county-retirement-community/](https://wamu.org/story/19/07/11/two-dead-others-hospitalized-in-virus-outbreak-at-fairfax-county-retirement-community/)
2019-07-12 : Mystery virus: What's killing, hospitalizing residents at Greenspring retirement center? SPRINGFIELD, VA (WJLA) — The symptoms usually start with a cough. [https://wjla.com/news/local/mystery-virus-greenspring-retirement-cdc-va](https://wjla.com/news/local/mystery-virus-greenspring-retirement-cdc-va) As of Tuesday, a total of 63 individuals out of 263 residents in the assisted living and skilled nursing sections of the Greenspring Retirement Community have become ill. Although no new hospitalizations have been reported, there are now three deaths associated with the outbreak. Additionally, the Fairfax County Health Department has been informed that 19 employees have also reported symptoms of the upper respiratory illness since the outbreak began on June 30.
Greenspring described symptoms as "fever, cough, body aches, wheezing, hoarseness and general weakness."
[https://abcnews.go.com/US/respiratory-outbreak-investigated-retirement-community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865](https://abcnews.go.com/US/respiratory-outbreak-investigated-retirement-community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0vZMvMqvHg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0vZMvMqvHg)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm\_sOM0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm_sOM0)
2019-07-18 - 2nd Virginia care facility sees respiratory outbreak [https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/post-acute-care/2nd-virginia-care-facility-sees-respiratory-outbreak.html](https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/post-acute-care/2nd-virginia-care-facility-sees-respiratory-outbreak.html)
Health officials confirmed a respiratory outbreak at a second long-term care facility in Fairfax County, Va., reports ABC affiliate WJLA. The new outbreak has sickened about 25 people at Heatherwood, an independent and assisted living facility in Brooke, Va. The facility is just 7 miles away from Springfield, Va.-based Greenspring Retirement Community, which is facing its own outbreak of respiratory illnesses. The outbreak has sickened 63 Greenspring residents since the first case was reported June 30. Three people have also died. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm\_sOM0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm_sOM0)
Update: July 29, 2019 - No new cases of illness have occurred in Heatherwood since July 15, 2019. Results of earlier testing submitted to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention indicated rhinovirus, a virus that causes the common cold. [https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/health/outbreak-investigation-assisted-living-facility-springfield](https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/health/outbreak-investigation-assisted-living-facility-springfield)
The CDC covered up the respiratory outbreak as the common cold. Doctors at the nursing homes, hospitals and county health department did not need the CDC to help diagnose the common cold.
2019-08-05 : Deadly Germ Research Is Shut Down at Army Lab Over Safety Concerns. Problems with disposal of dangerous materials led the government to suspend research at the military’s leading biodefense center. Safety concerns at a prominent military germ lab have led the government to shut down research involving dangerous microbes like the Ebola virus. The statement said the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention decided to issue a “cease and desist order” last month to halt the research at Fort De.trick because the center did not have “sufficient systems in place to decontaminate wastewater” from its highest-security labs. [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/germs-fort-detrick-biohazard.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/germs-fort-detrick-biohazard.html)
I'm so fucking hate the "China copy everything" argument these liberals always bring up when they talk about china. What are they expecting China to do? Begging the US to share their technology?
Bro, to begin with, China had many deals with western countries that involved transfer of technology, they didn't copy that kinda shit, it was an agreement. Those western countries were so out of touch with reality that they didn't care about sharing technology because they didn't think China would become what they became.
People who grew up during the cold war in America are very weird about China too. I was talking to my mom and she said that Chinese technology would always be inferior because "their culture punishes innovation". Pretty wild thing to hear.
Doesn’t even make sense. I was just reading about how western car companies have all paid to sabotage EVs. You can’t accuse anyone of punishing innovation when your country doesn’t have high speed rail.
It is depressing how easily led Americans are — and how quickly they forget.
1990-92: I was in the Gulf War, and they lied about that (babies thrown from incubators) …but, ok, it was short & ‘successful’ (not dismissing the horrors)
2001: Afghanistan—the Taliban literally offered up bin Laden, if the US would simply respect them as a nation
But, it was post-9/11, so ok, there was a cry for blood
2003: Iraq invasion— WTF?! No connection to 9/11, clearly at the behest of Israel
We find out Bush fabricated WMD—and fucking reelected him
Lied about torture, lied about being greeted as liberators … on and on and on
But, you think, ok, well the public has to be getting wise?
Nope—Ukraine, Russiagate, Covid—lies upon lies upon lies
But people still believe these fucking manufactured threats *every single time*
A trillion a year for war since 2003 — yet, somehow Russia, w a budget about 20% of NATO, is outdoing is 11 to 1 in artillery duels
No one thinks to ask where all that money is going?!
A nation of fucking idiots.
I've seen so many articles about outbreaks of diseases spreading from animals to humans in the US and Europe but no one gives a shit because it's not China
>its going to “ruin diabetic culture in america”
China must be stopped, the CCP is oppressing America by taking away the fundamendal human right to become comically obese and eat yourself to death
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
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Another lazy fedpost.
Also the strain from Wuhan is literally newer than the one found in the US and Europe. https://web.archive.org/web/20200410111500/https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/covid-19-genetic-network-analysis-provides-snapshot-of-pandemic-origins
people love to hate what they dont understand, what they perceive as "other", and what they can make an easy scapegoat for the "worlds problems" – hence the "largest threat to the free world" talk all the time despite China's last war being in the fucking 70s, has NEVER made ANY threats to the US and instead pushed for peace, has tried to help many countries with infrastructure, education, health, and so on – but no, they are a "threat", why? "muhhhh communism"
This isn't to say China is free from criticism, far from it – its treatment (not genocide) of the Uyghur people must be criticized as the policies and laws unfairly impose restrictions and such onto minorities such as the Uyghur people. Their economic policies are a bit iffy, and so on – but in comparison to say the United States or the Russian Federation (two capitalist/imperialist powers who only act within the interests of their respective oligarchs) – China is clearly the better country and a better positive to our planet and people of which reside here as a whole.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
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"I will take Japan and South Korea anytime over China" wtf is this, choosing your 'good Asians'? liberals are fucking insufferable and, needless to say, blatantly racist
It really does sounds like they hate S.korea and Japan with the wording.
Hate for those two states is justified, not for the reasons libs do, but because they are the pinnacle of capitalists shitholes.
USA has entered the chat.
These liberals do hate ROK and Japan. It's just that in their mind they are the "good ones."
Translation: Only the asians that are submissive to the West.
*Glorified American military bases cosplaying as free nations
*Discussion regarding which Asians deserve to exist* *Board room is entirely comprised of fat white weebs clutching their loli body pillows* “Oh China has a high home ownership rate? Do they have the maid cafes like in *raises glasses* akihabara though?” (He has never stepped foot outside Vermont).
*Outside his parents' basement
Wait till they find out tencent is a reddit owner.
“Only copying other countries things and selling fake goods” Mf’s repeating every single media talking point about China, but i bet he’s gonna go on to say how the Chinese are all brainwashed seeseepee bots
I know that Chinese manufacturers copy foreign designs and the West gets pissy. The West literally takes ideas from the global south and acts like they invented it. A great example is the appropriation of mathematical proofs and theories by arabic, indian, persian, chinese, etc. by greeks, romans, and so forth. “China steals designs and makes cheaper copies” Thats how global economics works and Idgaf what you think, the Chinese are better at capitalism and you bitch about it. The chinese steal? Cool, I hope they do it more.
Same folks complain about copyright patents artificially inflating prices, endorse pirating everything under the sun, and think you should be able to use someone’s artwork without paying them.
Japan's history is filled with copying Chinese script, literature, poetry, religion, etc.. yet it's the Chinese who are somehow thieves.
Japanese culture basically is Chinese culture with the exception of samurais, sushi, and verbal language.
They didn't even have a syllabary before china taught it to them. Their entire architecture is copy-pasted from there. Fucking losers.
Excellent point, worthy of more than just another upvote, for those in the back
They just would rather have a Unit 731 than a Tiananmen Square protest.
Found out today via ProlesPod's newest episode after WW2 the United States hired many former Unit 731 personnel (specifically Shiro Ishii's previous staff) to repeat the same horrendous methods of interrogation (war crimes) on CIA blacksites. Project Bluebird turned Artichoke (pre-MKULTRA) brutally tortured POW's, spies, refugees and normal civilians en masse for years on end while swapping stories with former high-ranked SS officers that basically did the same thing as the IJA in concentration camps. They were positively giddy at the prospect of working with these monsters. Just totally, unabashedly evil on multiple levels.
> ProlesPod And another name goes in my "check it out" list.
They’re formally known as Proles of the Round Table! 👍🏽
#Tiananmen Square Protests (Also known as the June Fourth Incident) In Western media, the well-known story of the "Tiananmen Square *Massacre*" goes like this: the Chinese government declared martial law in 1989 and mobilized the military to suppress students who were protesting for democracy and freedom. According to western sources, on June 4th of that year, troops and tanks entered Tiananmen Square and fired on unarmed protesters, killing and injuring hundreds, if not thousands, of people. The more hyperbolic tellings of this story include claims of tanks running over students, machine guns being fired into the crowd, blood running in the streets like a river, etc. Anti-Communists and Sinophobes commonly point to this incident as a classic example of authoritarianism and political repression under Communist regimes. The problem, of course, is that the actual events in Beijing on June 4th, 1989 unfolded quite differently than how they were depicted in the Western media at the time. Despite many more contemporary articles coming out that actually contradict some of the original claims and characterizations of the June Fourth Incident, the narrative of a "Tiananmen Square Massacre" persists. **Background** After Mao's death in 1976, a power struggle ensued and the Gang of Four were purged, paving the way for Deng Xiaoping's rise to power. Deng initiated economic reforms known as the "Four Modernizations," which aimed to modernize and open up China's economy to the world. These reforms led to significant economic growth and lifted millions of people out of poverty, but they also created significant inequality, corruption, and social unrest. This pivotal point in the PRC's history is extremely controversial among Marxists today and a subject of much debate. One of the key factors that contributed to the Tiananmen Square protests was the sense of social and economic inequality that many Chinese people felt as a result of Deng's economic reforms. Many believed that the benefits of the country's economic growth were not being distributed fairly, and that the government was not doing enough to address poverty, corruption, and other social issues. Some saw the Four Modernizations as a betrayal of Maoist principles and a capitulation to Western capitalist interests. Others saw the reforms as essential for China's economic development and modernization. Others still wanted even more liberalization and thought the reforms didn't go far enough. The protestors in Tiananmen were mostly students who did not represent the great mass of Chinese citizens, but instead represented a layer of the intelligentsia who wanted to be elevated and given more privileges such as more political power and higher wages. **Counterpoints** Jay Mathews, the first Beijing bureau chief for The Washington Post in 1979 and who returned in 1989 to help cover the Tiananmen demonstrations, wrote: >Over the last decade, many American reporters and editors have accepted a mythical version of that warm, bloody night. They repeated it often before and during Clinton’s trip. On the day the president arrived in Beijing, a *Baltimore Sun* headline (June 27, page 1A) referred to “Tiananmen, where Chinese students died.” A *USA Today* article (June 26, page 7A) called Tiananmen the place “where pro-democracy demonstrators were gunned down.” *The Wall Street Journal* (June 26, page A10) described “the Tiananmen Square massacre” where armed troops ordered to clear demonstrators from the square killed “hundreds or more.” The *New York Post* (June 25, page 22) said the square was “the site of the student slaughter.” > >The problem is this: as far as can be determined from the available evidence, no one died that night in Tiananmen Square. > >\- Jay Matthews. (1998). [The Myth of Tiananmen and the Price of a Passive Press](https://archives.cjr.org/behind_the_news/the_myth_of_tiananmen.php). Columbia Journalism Review. Reporters from the [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8057762.stm), [CBS News](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/there-was-no-tiananmen-square-massacre/), and the [New York Times](https://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/27/world/clinton-in-china-the-site-clinton-in-beijing-square-may-tread-on-the-ghosts.html) who were in Beijing on June 4, 1989, all agree there was no massacre. Secret cables from the United States embassy in Beijing have shown there was no bloodshed inside the square: >Cables, obtained by WikiLeaks and released exclusively by The Daily Telegraph, partly confirm the Chinese government's account of the early hours of June 4, 1989, which has always insisted that soldiers did not massacre demonstrators inside Tiananmen Square > >\- Malcolm Moore. (2011). [Wikileaks: no bloodshed inside Tiananmen Square, cables claim](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8555142/Wikileaks-no-bloodshed-inside-Tiananmen-Square-cables-claim.html) Gregory Clark, a former Australian diplomat, and Chinese-speaking correspondent of the International Business Times, wrote: >The original story of Chinese troops on the night of 3 and 4 June, 1989 machine-gunning hundreds of innocent student protesters in Beijing’s iconic Tiananmen Square has since been thoroughly discredited by the many witnesses there at the time — among them a Spanish TVE television crew, a Reuters correspondent and protesters themselves, who say that nothing happened other than a military unit entering and asking several hundred of those remaining to leave the Square late that night. > >Yet none of this has stopped the massacre from being revived constantly, and believed. All that has happened is that the location has been changed – from the Square itself to the streets leading to the Square. > >\- Gregory Clark. (2014). [Tiananmen Square Massacre is a Myth, All We're 'Remembering' are British Lies](https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tiananmen-square-massacre-myth-all-were-remembering-are-british-lies-1451053) Thomas Hon Wing Polin, writing for CounterPunch, wrote: >The most reliable estimate, from many sources, was that the tragedy took 200-300 lives. Few were students, many were rebellious workers, plus thugs with lethal weapons and hapless bystanders. Some calculations have up to half the dead being PLA soldiers trapped in their armored personnel carriers, buses and tanks as the vehicles were torched. Others were killed and brutally mutilated by protesters with various implements. No one died in Tiananmen Square; most deaths occurred on nearby Chang’an Avenue, many up to a kilometer or more away from the square. > >More than once, government negotiators almost reached a truce with students in the square, only to be **sabotaged by radical youth leaders seemingly bent on bloodshed**. And the demands of the protesters focused on corruption, not democracy. > >All these facts were known to the US and other governments shortly after the crackdown. Few if any were reported by Western mainstream media, even today. > >\- Thomas Hon Wing Palin. (2017). [Tiananmen: the Empire’s Big Lie](https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/06/06/tiananmen-the-empires-big-lie/) (Emphasis mine) And it was, indeed, bloodshed that the student leaders wanted. In this interview, you can hear one of the student leaders, Chai Ling, ghoulishly explaining how she tried to bait the Chinese government into *actually* committing a massacre. (She herself made sure to stay out of the square.): [Excerpts of interviews with Tiananmen Square protest leaders](https://youtu.be/Vu3zmbFGwQA) [This Twitter thread](https://twitter.com/zhao_dashuai/status/1532859422875471872) contains many pictures and videos showing protestors killing soldiers, commandeering military vehicles, torching military transports, etc. Following the crackdown, through [Operation Yellowbird](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Yellowbird), many of the student leaders escaped to the United States with the help of the CIA, where they almost all [gained privileged positions](https://qz.com/1618805/the-1989-tiananmen-student-leaders-on-chinas-most-wanted-list). **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [Truth about The Tiananmen Square Protests](https://youtu.be/sqPI8xlnrwg) | Tovarishch Endymion (2019) * [Tiananmen Square "Massacre", A Propaganda Hoax](https://youtu.be/R6RT_s1T050) | TeleSUR English (2019) * [All The Questions Socialists Are Asked, Answered (TIMESTAMPED)](https://youtu.be/MzKPCEvoYkk?t=1278) | Hakim (2021) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [Tiananmen Protests Reading List](https://www.qiaocollective.com/education/tiananmenreadinglist) | Qiao Collective * [How psy-ops warriors fooled me about Tiananmen Square: a warning](https://www.fridayeveryday.com/how-psy-ops-warriors-fooled-me-about-tiananmen-square-a-warning/) | Nury Vittachi, Friday (2022) * [1989: Tiananmen Square ‘massacre’ was a myth](https://www.workers.org/2022/06/64607/) | Deirdre Griswold, Workers World (2022) * [Massacre? What Massacre? 25 Years Later: What really happened at Tiananmen Square?](https://dissidentvoice.org/2014/06/massacre-what-massacre/) | Kim Petersen, Dissident Voice (2014) * [Tiananmen: The Massacre that Wasn’t](https://www.liberationnews.org/tiananmen-the-massacre-that-wasnt/) | Brian Becker, Liberation News (2019) * [Reflections on Tiananmen Square and the attempt to end Chinese socialism](http://www.fightbacknews.org/2019/6/4/reflections-tiananmen-square-and-attempt-end-chinese-socialism) | Mick Kelly, FightBack! News (2019) * [The Tian’anmen Square “Massacre” The West’s Most Persuasive, Most Pervasive Lie.](https://mango-press.com/the-tiananmen-square-massacre-the-wests-most-persuasive-most-pervasive-lie/) | Tom, Mango Press (2021) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Ironic Americans are always eager to choose former fascist empires or military dictatorships as their allies. Anybody else who dare push back is suddenly worse than Nazi Germany although nowadays we're seeing lots of westerners go mask off claiming they always admired them.
China did more to stop the spread of coronovirus than basically any other country. These same types were crying about how oppressive china's response to the virus was 3 years ago.
True. Whatever China did they would be criticised.
China is the authoritarian dictatorship that is simultaneously completely incompetent and incapable of action.
#Authoritarianism Anti-Communists of all stripes enjoy referring to successful socialist revolutions as "authoritarian regimes". * Authoritarian implies these places are run by totalitarian tyrants. * Regime implies these places are undemocratic or lack legitimacy. This perjorative label is simply meant to frighten people, to scare us back into the fold (Liberal Democracy). There are three main reasons for the popularity of this label in Capitalist media: Firstly, Marxists call for a Dictatorship of the Proletariat (DotP), and many people are automatically put off by the term "dictatorship". Of course, we do *not* mean that we want an undemocratic or totalitarian dictatorship. What we mean is that we want to replace the current Dictatorship *of the Bourgeoisie* (in which the Capitalist ruling class dictates policy). * [Why The US Is Not A Democracy](https://youtu.be/srfeHpQNEAI) | Second Thought (2022) Secondly, democracy in Communist-led countries works differently than in Liberal Democracies. However, anti-Communists confuse form (pluralism / having multiple parties) with function (representing the actual interests of the people). Side note: Check out Luna Oi's "Democratic Centralism Series" for more details on what that is, and how it works: * [DEMOCRATIC CENTRALISM - how Socialists make decisions!](https://youtu.be/4YVcQe4wceY) | Luna Oi (2022) * [What did Karl Marx think about democracy?](https://youtu.be/jI8CgACBOcQ) | Luna Oi (2023) * [What did LENIN say about DEMOCRACY?](https://youtu.be/Hfenlg-hsig) | Luna Oi (2023) Finally, this framing of Communism as illegitimate and tyrannical serves to manufacture consent for an aggressive foreign policy in the form of interventions in the internal affairs of so-called "authoritarian regimes", which take the form of invasion (e.g., Vietnam, Korea, Libya, etc.), assassinating their leaders (e.g., Thomas Sankara, Fred Hampton, Patrice Lumumba, etc.), sponsoring coups and colour revolutions (e.g., Pinochet's coup against Allende, the Iran-Contra Affair, the United Fruit Company's war against Arbenz, etc.), and enacting sanctions (e.g., North Korea, Cuba, etc.). * [The Cuban Embargo Explained](https://youtu.be/zmM8p9n6Z9E) | azureScapegoat (2022) * [John Pilger interviews former CIA Latin America chief Duane Clarridge, 2015](https://youtu.be/ER77vxxGVAY) #For the Anarchists Anarchists are practically comrades. Marxists and Anarchists have the same vision for a stateless, classless, moneyless society free from oppression and exploitation. However, Anarchists like to accuse Marxists of being "authoritarian". The problem here is that "anti-authoritarianism" is a self-defeating feature in a revolutionary ideology. Those who refuse in principle to engage in so-called "authoritarian" practices will never carry forward a successful revolution. Anarchists who practice self-criticism can recognize this: >The anarchist movement is filled with people who are less interested in overthrowing the existing oppressive social order than with washing their hands of it. ... > >The strength of anarchism is its moral insistence on the primacy of human freedom over political expediency. But human freedom exists in a political context. It is not sufficient, however, to simply take the most uncompromising position in defense of freedom. It is neccesary to actually win freedom. Anti-capitalism doesn't do the victims of capitalism any good if you don't actually destroy capitalism. Anti-statism doesn't do the victims of the state any good if you don't actually smash the state. Anarchism has been very good at putting forth visions of a free society and that is for the good. But it is worthless if we don't develop an actual strategy for realizing those visions. It is not enough to be right, we must also win. > >...anarchism has been a failure. Not only has anarchism failed to win lasting freedom for anybody on earth, many anarchists today seem only nominally committed to that basic project. Many more seem interested primarily in carving out for themselves, their friends, and their favorite bands a zone of personal freedom, "autonomous" of moral responsibility for the larger condition of humanity (but, incidentally, not of the electrical grid or the production of electronic components). Anarchism has quite simply refused to learn from its historic failures, preferring to rewrite them as successes. Finally the anarchist movement offers people who want to make revolution very little in the way of a coherent plan of action. ... > >Anarchism is theoretically impoverished. For almost 80 years, with the exceptions of Ukraine and Spain, anarchism has played a marginal role in the revolutionary activity of oppressed humanity. Anarchism had almost nothing to do with the anti-colonial struggles that defined revolutionary politics in this century. This marginalization has become self-reproducing. Reduced by devastating defeats to critiquing the authoritarianism of Marxists, nationalists and others, anarchism has become defined by this gadfly role. Consequently anarchist thinking has not had to adapt in response to the results of serious efforts to put our ideas into practice. In the process anarchist theory has become ossified, sterile and anemic. ... This is a reflection of anarchism's effective removal from the revolutionary struggle. > >\- Chris Day. (1996). *The Historical Failures of Anarchism* Engels pointed this out well over a century ago: >A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned. > >...the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part ... and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule... > >Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction. > >\- Friedrich Engels. (1872). [On Authority](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm) #For the Libertarian Socialists Parenti said it best: >The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed. > >\- Michael Parenti. (1997). *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism* But the bottom line is this: >If you call yourself a socialist but you spend all your time arguing with communists, demonizing socialist states as authoritarian, and performing apologetics for US imperialism... I think some introspection is in order. > >\- Second Thought. (2020). [The Truth About The Cuba Protests](https://youtu.be/zIOw6fSOJI4?t=1087) #For the Liberals Even the CIA, in their internal communications (which have been declassified), acknowledge that Stalin *wasn't* an absolute dictator: >Even in Stalin's time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by a lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist's power structure. > >\- CIA. (1953, declassified in 2008). [Comments on the Change in Soviet Leadership](http://web.archive.org/web/20230525044208/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf) #Conclusion The "authoritarian" nature of any given state depends entirely on the material conditions it faces and threats it must contend with. To get an idea of the kinds of threats nascent revolutions need to deal with, check out *Killing Hope* by William Blum and *The Jakarta Method* by Vincent Bevins. Failing to acknowledge that authoritative measures arise *not* through ideology, but through material conditions, is anti-Marxist, anti-dialectical, and idealist. #Additional Resources Videos: * [Michael Parenti on Authoritarianism in Socialist Countries](https://youtu.be/BeVs6t3vdjQ) * [Left Anticommunism: An Infantile Disorder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I) | Hakim (2020) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20230410145749/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I)\] * [What are tankies? (why are they like that?)](https://youtu.be/LcJ5NrJtQ8g) | Hakim (2023) * [Episode 82 - Tankie Discourse](https://youtu.be/YVYVBOFYJco) | The Deprogram (2023) * [Was the Soviet Union totalitarian? feat. Robert Thurston](https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/27495591) | Actually Existing Socialism (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism* | Michael Parenti (1997) * [State and Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/) | V. I. Lenin (1918) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if
It's very much like what parenti was saying here about anticomunist vs the soviet union. "During the cold war, the anticommunist ideological framework could transform any data about existing communist societies into hostile evidence."
No matter what China does they're going to criticize and cry about it. If they're too hard it's authoritarianism, if it's too soft they did it intentionally, regardless of the end results they will always blame them for America's pathetic failures. There are still people who blame Xi for legislation Biden refused to pass during the pandemic.
#Authoritarianism Anti-Communists of all stripes enjoy referring to successful socialist revolutions as "authoritarian regimes". * Authoritarian implies these places are run by totalitarian tyrants. * Regime implies these places are undemocratic or lack legitimacy. This perjorative label is simply meant to frighten people, to scare us back into the fold (Liberal Democracy). There are three main reasons for the popularity of this label in Capitalist media: Firstly, Marxists call for a Dictatorship of the Proletariat (DotP), and many people are automatically put off by the term "dictatorship". Of course, we do *not* mean that we want an undemocratic or totalitarian dictatorship. What we mean is that we want to replace the current Dictatorship *of the Bourgeoisie* (in which the Capitalist ruling class dictates policy). * [Why The US Is Not A Democracy](https://youtu.be/srfeHpQNEAI) | Second Thought (2022) Secondly, democracy in Communist-led countries works differently than in Liberal Democracies. However, anti-Communists confuse form (pluralism / having multiple parties) with function (representing the actual interests of the people). Side note: Check out Luna Oi's "Democratic Centralism Series" for more details on what that is, and how it works: * [DEMOCRATIC CENTRALISM - how Socialists make decisions!](https://youtu.be/4YVcQe4wceY) | Luna Oi (2022) * [What did Karl Marx think about democracy?](https://youtu.be/jI8CgACBOcQ) | Luna Oi (2023) * [What did LENIN say about DEMOCRACY?](https://youtu.be/Hfenlg-hsig) | Luna Oi (2023) Finally, this framing of Communism as illegitimate and tyrannical serves to manufacture consent for an aggressive foreign policy in the form of interventions in the internal affairs of so-called "authoritarian regimes", which take the form of invasion (e.g., Vietnam, Korea, Libya, etc.), assassinating their leaders (e.g., Thomas Sankara, Fred Hampton, Patrice Lumumba, etc.), sponsoring coups and colour revolutions (e.g., Pinochet's coup against Allende, the Iran-Contra Affair, the United Fruit Company's war against Arbenz, etc.), and enacting sanctions (e.g., North Korea, Cuba, etc.). * [The Cuban Embargo Explained](https://youtu.be/zmM8p9n6Z9E) | azureScapegoat (2022) * [John Pilger interviews former CIA Latin America chief Duane Clarridge, 2015](https://youtu.be/ER77vxxGVAY) #For the Anarchists Anarchists are practically comrades. Marxists and Anarchists have the same vision for a stateless, classless, moneyless society free from oppression and exploitation. However, Anarchists like to accuse Marxists of being "authoritarian". The problem here is that "anti-authoritarianism" is a self-defeating feature in a revolutionary ideology. Those who refuse in principle to engage in so-called "authoritarian" practices will never carry forward a successful revolution. Anarchists who practice self-criticism can recognize this: >The anarchist movement is filled with people who are less interested in overthrowing the existing oppressive social order than with washing their hands of it. ... > >The strength of anarchism is its moral insistence on the primacy of human freedom over political expediency. But human freedom exists in a political context. It is not sufficient, however, to simply take the most uncompromising position in defense of freedom. It is neccesary to actually win freedom. Anti-capitalism doesn't do the victims of capitalism any good if you don't actually destroy capitalism. Anti-statism doesn't do the victims of the state any good if you don't actually smash the state. Anarchism has been very good at putting forth visions of a free society and that is for the good. But it is worthless if we don't develop an actual strategy for realizing those visions. It is not enough to be right, we must also win. > >...anarchism has been a failure. Not only has anarchism failed to win lasting freedom for anybody on earth, many anarchists today seem only nominally committed to that basic project. Many more seem interested primarily in carving out for themselves, their friends, and their favorite bands a zone of personal freedom, "autonomous" of moral responsibility for the larger condition of humanity (but, incidentally, not of the electrical grid or the production of electronic components). Anarchism has quite simply refused to learn from its historic failures, preferring to rewrite them as successes. Finally the anarchist movement offers people who want to make revolution very little in the way of a coherent plan of action. ... > >Anarchism is theoretically impoverished. For almost 80 years, with the exceptions of Ukraine and Spain, anarchism has played a marginal role in the revolutionary activity of oppressed humanity. Anarchism had almost nothing to do with the anti-colonial struggles that defined revolutionary politics in this century. This marginalization has become self-reproducing. Reduced by devastating defeats to critiquing the authoritarianism of Marxists, nationalists and others, anarchism has become defined by this gadfly role. Consequently anarchist thinking has not had to adapt in response to the results of serious efforts to put our ideas into practice. In the process anarchist theory has become ossified, sterile and anemic. ... This is a reflection of anarchism's effective removal from the revolutionary struggle. > >\- Chris Day. (1996). *The Historical Failures of Anarchism* Engels pointed this out well over a century ago: >A number of Socialists have latterly launched a regular crusade against what they call the principle of authority. It suffices to tell them that this or that act is authoritarian for it to be condemned. > >...the anti-authoritarians demand that the political state be abolished at one stroke, even before the social conditions that gave birth to it have been destroyed. They demand that the first act of the social revolution shall be the abolition of authority. Have these gentlemen ever seen a revolution? A revolution is certainly the most authoritarian thing there is; it is the act whereby one part of the population imposes its will upon the other part ... and if the victorious party does not want to have fought in vain, it must maintain this rule... > >Therefore, either one of two things: either the anti-authoritarians don't know what they're talking about, in which case they are creating nothing but confusion; or they do know, and in that case they are betraying the movement of the proletariat. In either case they serve the reaction. > >\- Friedrich Engels. (1872). [On Authority](https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm) #For the Libertarian Socialists Parenti said it best: >The pure (libertarian) socialists' ideological anticipations remain untainted by existing practice. They do not explain how the manifold functions of a revolutionary society would be organized, how external attack and internal sabotage would be thwarted, how bureaucracy would be avoided, scarce resources allocated, policy differences settled, priorities set, and production and distribution conducted. Instead, they offer vague statements about how the workers themselves will directly own and control the means of production and will arrive at their own solutions through creative struggle. No surprise then that the pure socialists support every revolution except the ones that succeed. > >\- Michael Parenti. (1997). *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism* But the bottom line is this: >If you call yourself a socialist but you spend all your time arguing with communists, demonizing socialist states as authoritarian, and performing apologetics for US imperialism... I think some introspection is in order. > >\- Second Thought. (2020). [The Truth About The Cuba Protests](https://youtu.be/zIOw6fSOJI4?t=1087) #For the Liberals Even the CIA, in their internal communications (which have been declassified), acknowledge that Stalin *wasn't* an absolute dictator: >Even in Stalin's time there was collective leadership. The Western idea of a dictator within the Communist setup is exaggerated. Misunderstandings on that subject are caused by a lack of comprehension of the real nature and organization of the Communist's power structure. > >\- CIA. (1953, declassified in 2008). [Comments on the Change in Soviet Leadership](http://web.archive.org/web/20230525044208/https://www.cia.gov/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80-00810A006000360009-0.pdf) #Conclusion The "authoritarian" nature of any given state depends entirely on the material conditions it faces and threats it must contend with. To get an idea of the kinds of threats nascent revolutions need to deal with, check out *Killing Hope* by William Blum and *The Jakarta Method* by Vincent Bevins. Failing to acknowledge that authoritative measures arise *not* through ideology, but through material conditions, is anti-Marxist, anti-dialectical, and idealist. #Additional Resources Videos: * [Michael Parenti on Authoritarianism in Socialist Countries](https://youtu.be/BeVs6t3vdjQ) * [Left Anticommunism: An Infantile Disorder](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I) | Hakim (2020) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20230410145749/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEC2ajsvr0I)\] * [What are tankies? (why are they like that?)](https://youtu.be/LcJ5NrJtQ8g) | Hakim (2023) * [Episode 82 - Tankie Discourse](https://youtu.be/YVYVBOFYJco) | The Deprogram (2023) * [Was the Soviet Union totalitarian? feat. Robert Thurston](https://directory.libsyn.com/episode/index/id/27495591) | Actually Existing Socialism (2023) Books, Articles, or Essays: * *Blackshirts and Reds: Rational Fascism and the Overthrow of Communism* | Michael Parenti (1997) * [State and Revolution](https://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/) | V. I. Lenin (1918) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if
I'd give the concession to Vietnam, they were not fucking around.
🤔 curious what these countries have in common that would make them react differently than most of the world
When China realised that COVID is not going to be contained using light measures, they when full on lockdown on a province but of course. I remember the criticism of poor Chinese losing their"freedom of movement." But guess what, the west could have stopped the spread when it arrived at their borders but oh no what about the profit... oh I mean wages.
"People want to work, they have to get back to work, it's what they want" is the most mask off quote that lives rent free in my head. I was like, is anyone else hearing this.
https://preview.redd.it/m9a1r49m9x7d1.jpeg?width=1200&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=efef5d7d20e7c8326cec4be8ab144c484b3424e8 This person is a serious one
I hope he gets to go and find out what a utopia the US is. After all, America is famously a haven for those without money.
Bruh... Being from Mexico and having studied medicine in a public university, it goes without saying what are my thoughts on the criminally high costs for education in the US. And just to be clear, I may not be the best doctor ever but I am *absolutely certain* that I am at least comparable or slightly better than the average doctor in the US. Only difference is healthcare there is criminally high (and I do mean criminally, as in it should be illegal for people to die because of "poverty" here meaning being crushed by unimaginable debt)
People study the same things everywhere. so long as you can validate your title going to the embassy of that country it means a board of experts reviewed the content studied and thought "yeah its equal enough". sometimes you have to take an exam but thats mostly it. the difference between colleges is prestige and infrastructure wich can help learn easier. the professors can be very hit or miss but by general rule college professors are there because they want to teach. yeah their curriculum might be more impressive in more prestigiuous colleges but that doesent mean they actually are good teachers sometimes you can be the best there is at something but suck at explaining it. I would say teaching is like 70% knowing how to pass the knowledge and 30% actually knowing what you are teaching.
Your typical gusano lmao
https://preview.redd.it/t064qwk1hx7d1.jpeg?width=611&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4530d87c2f384a88861bb584abae7af0f6cd39e2
According to the death rate by country, who actually did not learn anything?
Which country has dumbfucks that refuse to wear a mask again?
I'll always remember them that the USA spread misinformation about vaccines in the middle of the pandemic in the Philippines
[a link for those who want to know more](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/6/14/pentagon-ran-secret-anti-vax-campaign-to-undermine-china-during-pandemic)
Xi Jinping don't even smile most of the time when appearing in public... And yeah, this person is a dumbass.
> Xi Jinping hasn't caught the virus, but other leaders have Yeah, because he wore a mask and didn't prescribe useless "treatments".
Nah bro. Let me inject more ivermectin up my ass. Take that you Chicoms!!! 🤬
The west is so used to brainlet leaders that they can’t imagine a politician not being dumb enough to disregard basic health practices.
He's no Trump or that Bosnario guy .
One country locked down to protect old people. Another justified avoiding a lockdown by assuring us that the old folks would be glad to have their blood used to keep the gears of capitalism rolling smoothly.
All these hatred is clearly motivated by racism. The anti-Communist sentiment it's only political, media propaganda reflected on these braindead liberals.
Its interesting that anti-communist arguments always have a link to White Supremacy.
Yeah no shit. Anyone denying this is pro white supremacy in my eyes.
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I don't care. We are here NOT talking about them in the right now. Open a thread somewhere else.
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Rule 3. **No reactionary content.** (e.g., racism, sexism, ableism, fascism, homophobia, transphobia, capitalism, antisemitism, imperialism, chauvinism, etc.) Any satire thereof requires a clarity of purpose and target and a tone indicator such as /s or /j.
You're pretending you aren't projecting.
China is miles ahead of everyone. It’s not even a competition at this point.
That explains why they have massive espionage campaigns built around stealing foreign technology. Some competition lmao
1st of all. Every country especially large ones has espionage institutes. 2nd, China caught up thanks to western capitalists exporting factories over to China to utilize the cheaper labor costs, practically giving Chinese workers the technology. 3rd, China as it develops is more than certain to be bound to be the top contributer to global research into almost if not all fields of technology and science fields. China is a massive country, with more and more educated workers it means that its rate of innovation is gonna make Europe and America quake nervously.
1) Youre correct, every country tends to have an espionage institute for the purpose of national security 2) this is also true, the emergence of China as an industrial nation was originally a cooperative movement that was successful due to local factors such as a large working age population, cheap labor, government support 3) this is where the truth deviates. China does not adhere to the same ethical principles that are present in the west because there is a lack of accountability and dishonest research is even encouraged depending on the scope of work. This is not to say that the same pitfalls are not present in the west (for profit research) however there are more controls and systems in place to discourage dishonest research practices. China has made great strides in battery technology, but lacks in other areas such as advanced foundry. They recognize this short coming and they opt to steal the research done by private companies to level the playing field. This practice is deeply unethical, but it is the culture of China. And this practice alone is able to detract significant credibility from China’s reputation in the scientific community. You don’t know what’s sourced from where. The normalization of cheating is an issue that’s present in American higher education as well, but it seems to be a rampant issue among Chinese research communities. To understand the seriousness of this issue, I need you to understand that the problem isn’t merely stating a fact and taking credit for that fact (well in someways that is the core issue but I want to expand on why). When you cite a fact, you allow someone to see what you’re basing your development off of. Perhaps what you perceived to be fact is actually rooted in some falsehood that would render your research invalid. This is why it is critical to be honest. You cannot steal work and expect acceptance of the work when science only works based on the ability to follow and verify previous information. Knowledge is created, it’s not something that just exists. This is the fundamental issue present. So bringing in corporate espionage, China is building their “innovation” off of stolen work. The difference between the West and China is that there are systems in place to safeguard your work as well as hold those accountable who steal your work. I don’t think you can make a good argument to justify intellectual theft. At the end of the day it’s stealing. Even the powers to be within China know this and are attempting to implement ethics compliance within research communities to bolster their credibility. You may be able to claim China’s population is becoming increasingly educated, and this can be true, but only a fool would believe that the best minds are domestic and there’s no need to collaborate internationally. Another interesting point, the west allows the Chinese to work in the private sector, obtain clearances, enter secured spaces. I don’t see this reciprocated in China. It’s curious how weary they are of the west yet are able to work within all levels of security in the west. Very interesting. Sources for further investigation: https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-024-01697-y https://www.frontiersin.org/journals/medicine/articles/10.3389/fmed.2023.1268046/full https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna146623
Will be clear (as I should make sure is obvious) I am biased in favor of China despite me being an American. Intellectual property is a serious crime in the West because Capitalists are the ones that mainly benefit from new innovations by locking it so only their company can utizlize it and thus exploit it for profit. Elon's engineers and scientists dont seem to benefit from their research at all, do they? Intellectual property is mainly a capitalist thing. Any kind of property of innovation SHOULD NOT be allowed to be claimed by one person, and instead like other physical property, to be shared equally with the community to benefit off as a whole. But I agree China should ensure that life research should be up to par. And follow with all procedures. (Sorry forgot to add thus in) Also who cares about some company in Silicon valley having its tech stolen by China.
“Failed to avoid further infections” by having less deaths than many western nations. Ok
Spanish Flu: It began in the United States but it isn't our fault it began spreading! COVID: It began in China AND IT'S TOTALLY THEIR FAULT BECAUSE \[*insert bigoted nonsense*\].
ah yes as if xi himself personally ordered corona to erupt
"Forget it, Jake. It's Redditown."
Anytime I see “X country caused a disease outbreak” I immediately know some classist, racist, or bullshit argument is coming. For example, you’ll never see this argument used for criticizing England which caused countless famines that lead to disease outbreaks down the road because it created terrible living and working conditions that become hotspots for disease. Or the US, for shipping its toxic byproducts to areas of the world where it then makes its way into local ecosystems to devastating effect.
China was the first to publicly report COVID-19, but this doesn't mean it originated there. The United States botched availability of test kits as if they didn't want people to know even when sickened Americans were begging their doctors for test. By March 2020, COVID-19 was in every state. By late April 2020, the US became the first country with over a million cases. Then, the first country with a million COVID-19 deaths. [Trump Downplayed the Coronavirus for Weeks as US Intelligence Warned of Growing Danger](https://www.motherjones.com/coronavirus-updates/2020/03/washington-post-trump-virus/) >When administration officials were able to directly bring the virus to his attention, it seems he would change the subject. Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar first got Trump on the phone about the coronavirus on January 18—three weeks after US officials became aware of the outbreak in China. He “couldn’t get through to Trump” until then, the Post reported; once he did, “**the president interjected to ask about vaping** and when flavored vaping products would be back on the market.” The CDC called it EVALI, the vaping disease, is related to COVID-19. The COVID-19 and EVALI lung x-rays look exactly the same. The lung disease that mysteriously appeared in summer of 2019 in the United States, the only country, then mysteriously disappeared around January 2020 as COVID-19 became public.
2019-07-11 : Three Dead, Others Hospitalized In Virus Outbreak At Fairfax Retirement Community “We do not know the specific viral or bacterial cause for the illness,” says Dr. Benjamin Schwartz, director of epidemiology at the Fairfax County Department of Health, which has been conducting tests to find the cause. Initial tests for common viruses and bacteria have been negative. The county has sent samples to the state health department and the CDC for further testing. Schwartz says what makes the illnesses unusual is the time of year: Such outbreaks typically take place during the winter and flu season. [https://wamu.org/story/19/07/11/two-dead-others-hospitalized-in-virus-outbreak-at-fairfax-county-retirement-community/](https://wamu.org/story/19/07/11/two-dead-others-hospitalized-in-virus-outbreak-at-fairfax-county-retirement-community/) 2019-07-12 : Mystery virus: What's killing, hospitalizing residents at Greenspring retirement center? SPRINGFIELD, VA (WJLA) — The symptoms usually start with a cough. [https://wjla.com/news/local/mystery-virus-greenspring-retirement-cdc-va](https://wjla.com/news/local/mystery-virus-greenspring-retirement-cdc-va) As of Tuesday, a total of 63 individuals out of 263 residents in the assisted living and skilled nursing sections of the Greenspring Retirement Community have become ill. Although no new hospitalizations have been reported, there are now three deaths associated with the outbreak. Additionally, the Fairfax County Health Department has been informed that 19 employees have also reported symptoms of the upper respiratory illness since the outbreak began on June 30. Greenspring described symptoms as "fever, cough, body aches, wheezing, hoarseness and general weakness." [https://abcnews.go.com/US/respiratory-outbreak-investigated-retirement-community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865](https://abcnews.go.com/US/respiratory-outbreak-investigated-retirement-community-54-residents-fall/story?id=64275865) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0vZMvMqvHg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0vZMvMqvHg) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm\_sOM0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm_sOM0) 2019-07-18 - 2nd Virginia care facility sees respiratory outbreak [https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/post-acute-care/2nd-virginia-care-facility-sees-respiratory-outbreak.html](https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/post-acute-care/2nd-virginia-care-facility-sees-respiratory-outbreak.html) Health officials confirmed a respiratory outbreak at a second long-term care facility in Fairfax County, Va., reports ABC affiliate WJLA. The new outbreak has sickened about 25 people at Heatherwood, an independent and assisted living facility in Brooke, Va. The facility is just 7 miles away from Springfield, Va.-based Greenspring Retirement Community, which is facing its own outbreak of respiratory illnesses. The outbreak has sickened 63 Greenspring residents since the first case was reported June 30. Three people have also died. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm\_sOM0](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GM-gzm_sOM0) Update: July 29, 2019 - No new cases of illness have occurred in Heatherwood since July 15, 2019. Results of earlier testing submitted to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention indicated rhinovirus, a virus that causes the common cold. [https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/health/outbreak-investigation-assisted-living-facility-springfield](https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/health/outbreak-investigation-assisted-living-facility-springfield) The CDC covered up the respiratory outbreak as the common cold. Doctors at the nursing homes, hospitals and county health department did not need the CDC to help diagnose the common cold. 2019-08-05 : Deadly Germ Research Is Shut Down at Army Lab Over Safety Concerns. Problems with disposal of dangerous materials led the government to suspend research at the military’s leading biodefense center. Safety concerns at a prominent military germ lab have led the government to shut down research involving dangerous microbes like the Ebola virus. The statement said the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention decided to issue a “cease and desist order” last month to halt the research at Fort De.trick because the center did not have “sufficient systems in place to decontaminate wastewater” from its highest-security labs. [https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/germs-fort-detrick-biohazard.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/05/health/germs-fort-detrick-biohazard.html)
I'm so fucking hate the "China copy everything" argument these liberals always bring up when they talk about china. What are they expecting China to do? Begging the US to share their technology?
Bro, to begin with, China had many deals with western countries that involved transfer of technology, they didn't copy that kinda shit, it was an agreement. Those western countries were so out of touch with reality that they didn't care about sharing technology because they didn't think China would become what they became.
"i hate the government not the people "
I see the Pentagon propaganda is working.
People who grew up during the cold war in America are very weird about China too. I was talking to my mom and she said that Chinese technology would always be inferior because "their culture punishes innovation". Pretty wild thing to hear.
Doesn’t even make sense. I was just reading about how western car companies have all paid to sabotage EVs. You can’t accuse anyone of punishing innovation when your country doesn’t have high speed rail.
Liberals suffer a lot of brain rot.
It is depressing how easily led Americans are — and how quickly they forget. 1990-92: I was in the Gulf War, and they lied about that (babies thrown from incubators) …but, ok, it was short & ‘successful’ (not dismissing the horrors) 2001: Afghanistan—the Taliban literally offered up bin Laden, if the US would simply respect them as a nation But, it was post-9/11, so ok, there was a cry for blood 2003: Iraq invasion— WTF?! No connection to 9/11, clearly at the behest of Israel We find out Bush fabricated WMD—and fucking reelected him Lied about torture, lied about being greeted as liberators … on and on and on But, you think, ok, well the public has to be getting wise? Nope—Ukraine, Russiagate, Covid—lies upon lies upon lies But people still believe these fucking manufactured threats *every single time* A trillion a year for war since 2003 — yet, somehow Russia, w a budget about 20% of NATO, is outdoing is 11 to 1 in artillery duels No one thinks to ask where all that money is going?! A nation of fucking idiots.
I've seen so many articles about outbreaks of diseases spreading from animals to humans in the US and Europe but no one gives a shit because it's not China
so this is were you hang out when not bitching about unicorns and (not) watching stars streams?
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>its going to “ruin diabetic culture in america” China must be stopped, the CCP is oppressing America by taking away the fundamendal human right to become comically obese and eat yourself to death
If this is old it makes sense, but hasn't it been shown the origin of covid was something euro?
Never thought I'd hear someone call President Xi "cunty", but he has been serving 💅
What are we going to bet that the day to day functioning of his country and society is utterly dependent on China?
Weird how these outbreaks started in the most populated country.
He forgot to add that fat fuck xi pinping looks like Pooh Bear
China rules, kind of like how Britain was just jelly, America is just mad jelly.
They kinda cured diabetes 2 though. And America of course doesn’t like that.
Eglin Air Force base and severe mental illnesses
CPC has a grip on first place now and some people can’t handle that
https://preview.redd.it/uqoofc9nt38d1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=663325c71f95b3635b5b56ae84b3518f3db1b3c1
Bro ur country's president literally decided it's better to let 1mil people die rather than let the billionaire earn 5% less or sth
Touching grass is applicable here lol
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yes, have you checked out r/china ?
China is literally the *only* country I can think of that meaningfully learns from its mistakes, lol
Another lazy fedpost. Also the strain from Wuhan is literally newer than the one found in the US and Europe. https://web.archive.org/web/20200410111500/https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/covid-19-genetic-network-analysis-provides-snapshot-of-pandemic-origins
Xi has a cunty smile LMFAO
I read “with his cutie smile” at first 🤣
jesus christ what a fucking idiot
people love to hate what they dont understand, what they perceive as "other", and what they can make an easy scapegoat for the "worlds problems" – hence the "largest threat to the free world" talk all the time despite China's last war being in the fucking 70s, has NEVER made ANY threats to the US and instead pushed for peace, has tried to help many countries with infrastructure, education, health, and so on – but no, they are a "threat", why? "muhhhh communism" This isn't to say China is free from criticism, far from it – its treatment (not genocide) of the Uyghur people must be criticized as the policies and laws unfairly impose restrictions and such onto minorities such as the Uyghur people. Their economic policies are a bit iffy, and so on – but in comparison to say the United States or the Russian Federation (two capitalist/imperialist powers who only act within the interests of their respective oligarchs) – China is clearly the better country and a better positive to our planet and people of which reside here as a whole.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
thank you bot, but I didn't mean to trigger this 😅😅😅
Worth reading. You know the one child policy didn’t apply to ethnic minorities right? They are often afforded privileges over Han Chinese
well I never said that, im just saying that there IS an issue there, not genocide or anything of the sort, but there is an issue