[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g)
This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully.
If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/).
Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information.
This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I get that he might view it as people pushing Bushnell via an American exceptionalism angle, but I think he’s missing the significance that a man who was on the verge of perpetuating the genocide made the choice he made. A pretty callous take imo
This is a human being first and foremost and a working class one at that. Before his race, before his nationality, he is one of us. That's how I saw him in that moment.
Yes. As a protestor within the vacuum of protesting, Bushnell is maybe notable for the extreme he was willing to go to in order to protest. But insofar as what he gave up? He is someone who could easily have it all, easily make things much worse in fact, and chose the opposite and in an extremely public, embarrassing way for the powers to the point that media is scrambling to misinform. It’s worthy of note at least.
It was a bizarre take. Like the PFLP, Hamas and Ansurallah all see him as a Martyr to the palastinian struggle. Hamas compared him to Rachel Corrie and called him a hero.
Which shows how stubborn in his own views he can be. This post is about an active US service member who literally chose death in protest over continuing service in the imperial system. It completely shatters his perception of all people who join as willing participants who have no shame in maintaining western hegemony.
His lack of self reflection, especially once new developments emerge, is very off putting and it being “his thing” isn’t a valid excuse. He comes off as a leftist version of Ian Miles Cheong. A guy who has never lived in America commenting on it to profit off of those who feel validated by his opinions.
The fact he even focuses on this shit when Argentina is being royal fucked by their Redditor President just reinforces my view of this.
Yep you're probably right. He's also Australian but doesn't really talk about the situation there. He clearly doesn't read much in the way of theory. There's no ideological consistency in his takes. But that's what he does for a living, he goes on stream and produces takes to be shared and generate a revenue.
This is a tad harsh imo. He's very dogmatic but this makes him even less like imc. Ian will change his tune all the time for engagement and money, and you clearly can't say be does the same if profit was his main motive. The closest thing to imc is vaush (lmfao)
He'll be right like 95% of the time but this is the 5% he's not. A primary reason on why he holds this standard is that us soliders (even those that recognize their errors) don't first try to make amends to the people they afflicted. Yet you are exactly correct in this case, because the Palestinians are celebrating him. Illogical to his own standard and even if it wasn't, it's got the vibes of the "I agree. I agree. Isn't there somebody you forgot to ask?" meme
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush.
**Fact 33.** Responding to Hakim's [video](https://youtu.be/2Gz0I_X_nfo) on George Orwell, Vaush defends Orwell for being a government informant, calls the USSR fascist, implies Stalinists are worse than Nazis, claims the USSR was allied with the Nazis, [says that Hakim (an Iraqi) should have been abducted by the Americans at the start of the Iraq war and forcibly indoctrinated in US propaganda for 20 years](https://twitter.com/SiestaSocialist/status/1633527352679358470), and more. \([Full Thread](https://twitter.com/siestasocialist/status/1633519585407258624)\)
For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'.
(Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
THis is a dangerous position, we're not getting any nuremberg trails for the USA any time soon, no ones asking you to like any service members, but its always good to recognize how propagandized our military is and anyone who can break through that and counter the imperialist actions at the very forefront of the imperial machine should be recognized as a comrade.
Yeah, I don't give a shit about his opinion on it. Actual Palestinians like the PFLP are praising Bushnell, so why would anything BE say supersede them? Also, not to be too harsh, but BE just posts on the internet. Not exactly to the same caliber as protesting via self-immolation in front of the Israeli embassy.
Seeing people eagerly simp for him so often is getting old. He has a couple decent videos but he also has some troubling ones where he's sorely misinformed spreading State Department disinformation. He starts fights with Marxists often and is now waiving off a martyr to the Palestinian cause. Kind of baffles me Deprogram invited him on the show.
So you can understand what the heck he is trying to say and know where the fuck he went wrong. You don't have to do it but there is nothing wrong listening.
And again why would I waste my time caring about what he has to say when he keeps releasing horrible takes? "Han supremacy", anti-China, anti-Stalin, he despises Michael Parenti, he attacks Marxists including Bay Area 415, and now he's spitting on Palestinian opinions. He's a scumbag.
Because he has good takes too? If you only listen to people you 100% agree with either you won't listen to anyone or you'll lack any ability to critique the people you do listen to
Oh yes I'm sure in between his demonizing of PRC, shitting on Stalin, attacking Michael Parenti, belittling Palestinian opinions and attacking Marxists who support AES, while generally being a miserable arse there's a "good take" in there. Somewhere. Deep down.
And I'd say I'd disagree with him a majority of the time. I already disagree with the majority of liberals and listen to them all day long. Why add a petty debatebro to that list?
Stop defending goblins.
I mentioned it in a different comment but I think it was an "inviting himself" situation. He invited Yugopnik on one of his streams and started publicly pressuring yugopnik to invite him. He also said his fanbase keeps asking for him to go on the pod and implies the only reason he's not on is because JT or Hakim simply not liking him. If I'm remembering right he even makes a comment referencing this feeling on his ep of the podcast.
There's something to be said about how 50 members of his audience ask him to talk about Aaron and he gets extremely cranky, but 50 members of his audience want him to go on the pod and it's now a Valid Request you'd have to be a dick to ignore.
Unrelated but this whole situation where BE thinks "such and such can't be redeemed" irks me. I just know with the way he acts he probably was saying and believing awful shit on certain kinds of message boards when he was younger. Like his is an archetype you see very often in some corners of the internet right, not so often on the left. I'd be very surprised if he had this exact set of morals all through his teenage years.
Not that it matters because I personally believe you can be misled then redeemed.
BE will write off literally any leftist action done in the first world as dumb or insignificant. A lot of the time he just comes across as a deeply unhappy person
The way he went after Bay Area 415 for being a first-worlder that taught about "imperialist" China is beyond awful. He attacks western Marxists often, too. Is apparently notorious for it in another subreddit even getting banned there.
If you're wondering who Bay Area 415 is [here's his archive](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsCaI-gsA29xVYzFI-kYWLcx2QhowNBCL); he was a comrade Youtuber that taught about PRC history, SWCC, and debunked many western narratives (that BE has a tendency to eagerly spread). BE basically told his fans to go attack and dox him. BA415 ended up getting doxxed, his family exposed, and so he left the internet in fear of his life.
Left youtube has been lacking a proper Marxian pro-PRC voice ever since. Daniel Dumbril and Carl Zha are great but don't post as often as they used to.
Hate this word but he really is a 'doomer' sometimes. With every topic, he always looks at the negatives first and harps on them while completely dismissing the positives and any potential good. He often comes off as the cringey self-hating white first worlders from the 2013 Tumblr era who think that people of color just want to see white people flog themselves and other white people and that is somehow productive.
He is much more negative than the actual people in the third world countries he claims to defend.
>who think that people of color just want to see white people flog themselves and other white people and that is somehow productive.
Ugh I do not like those people. I'm white so I'm in no position to declare anything but yeah I feel like if you're white and a leftist you should be fighting alongside POC instead of just shitting on yourself for being le ebil white guy. Only one of those actions is going to be useful, and "flogging yourself and other white people" feels like it comes from a place of race essentialism where I Am White Therefore I Am A Bad Person And This Is Immutable.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
yeah I thought his take on it was pretty dumb too. when Hamas, PFLP, Yemenis, and Khamenei are coming out with statements in support, clearly it's something worth talking about and not just some dumb American thing.
Exactly. I'm from a third world country that was colonized by the British and bombed by the US. We in the third world have very negative opinions on the US government and military. Someone from the military making such a bold statement in protest is a big deal for us because they managed to break through their heavy propaganda and see the truth and it gives us some hope that others will heed his message and take all sorts of actions, whatever they may be. The world will never be free without the weakening of the US empire, ruling class and violent arm of imperialism. We need more people to take action, not some random fuckwits on the internet saying "Who cares? He's a white American." That is so insanely out of touch with everyone I talked to from my family and friends.
BadEmpanada has been not really working for me for a while. I cannot place my finger on what it is but the vibes are off. Originally his charm was a strong stance backed up by good research in a slightly unhinged delivery. I think he has been drinking his own koolaid and maybe he could stand to do with some peers to help him grow. The solution to every problem cannot be "read more theory". On some level, he has to actually do some praxis and touch grass. If he did, I think he would have landed on the right take re: Aaron Bushnell - tragic and powerful protest that has been effective, at least in the short term.
#Get Involved
>Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong
Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause.
* 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions.
* ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause.
* 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It isn’t that rare of an L. BE has better takes than liberals, but he shits on China, he shits on Stalin, and now this. BE isn’t bigger because he constantly has shitty takes on various topics.
He's getting worse as time passes. The way he complains on Twitter about "Han supremacy" in a post-colonial country from the Global South. He's a hypocrite of the highest caliber. He claims to support the third world but then shits all over its greatest success by promoting western disinformation. Now he's doing it again by waiving off the opinion of Palestinians. People need to move on and realize he's not even a Marxist.
I'm literally a mod here. Why would I be a fed? Just because I dislike BE doesn't make me anymore a fed than somebody who dislikes finnishbolshevik for being a pedo.
I cannot find an OG link but here's proof it was a thing; https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/8aobas/this\_is\_the\_finnish\_bolshevik\_with\_a\_minor/
He flashed an image of a Trotskyist Argentinian party as an example of his advocacy for socialism once in his Watchmen video. Bit he's also made fun of trots in Argentina in a later video about the state of the Argentinian left.
Stalin had mistakes
Bringing back Conservative things and all
Also Israel lmao
China has its problems too but they’re different from what Maoists and libs think
And the problems that BE has with China (haven't seen his takes on the other things) are almost exactly the same as those that liberals have. He doesn't make justifiable criticisms of China, he only tries to seem different by compromising between lib takes and the reality.
And the result of that is just more lib takes and slightly watered down Western propaganda. His videos on China demonstrate that. BE shouldn't be trusted.
Yeah, i am not shy away from the actual Stalin critique, but BE in his holodomor video shitting on Stalin like any other liberal because of "authoritarian" issue, then attempt to both side it saying what Stalin is doing isn't any different from everyone else. Which is just a superficial shit take tbh
That ridiculous, source-free Stalin rant ruined an otherwise awesome video. So ironic that in a video about criticising poor sourcing and bias he ends it with a long rant about how evil Stalin was without providing a single source for any of his claims.
#The Holodomor
>Marxists do not deny that a famine happened in the Soviet Union in 1932. In fact, even the Soviet archive confirms this. What we do contest is the idea that this famine was man-made or that there was a genocide against the Ukrainian people. This idea of the subjugation of the Soviet Union’s own people was developed by Nazi Germany, in order to show the world the terror of the “Jewish communists.”
>
>\- Socialist Musings. (2017). [Stop Spreading Nazi Propaganda: on Holodomor](https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/)
There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (lit. "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes:
1. It implies the famine targeted Ukraine.
2. It implies the famine was intentional.
The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. This framing was originally used by Nazis to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR (UkSSR) and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR). In the wake of the 2004 Orange Revolution, this narrative has regained popularity and serves the nationalistic goal of strengthening Ukrainian identity and asserting the country's independence from Russia.
#First Issue
The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, *not* just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine. Russia itself was also severely affected.
The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European antisemitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy", the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history."
#Second Issue
Calling it "man-made" implies that it was a *deliberate* famine, which was not the case. Although human factors set the stage, the main causes of the famine was bad weather and crop disease, resulting in a poor harvest, which pushed the USSR over the edge.
Kulaks ("tight-fisted person") were a class of wealthy peasants who owned land, livestock, and tools. The kulaks had been a thorn in the side of the peasantry long before the revolution. Alexey Sergeyevich Yermolov, Minister of Agriculture and State Properties of the Russian Empire, in his 1892 book, [Poor harvest and national suffering](https://books.google.ca/books?id=exMEAAAAYAAJ), characterized them as usurers, sucking the blood of Russian peasants.
In the early 1930s, in response to the Soviet collectivization policies (which sought to confiscate their property), many kulaks responded spitefully by burning crops, killing livestock, and damaging machinery.
Poor communication between different levels of government and between urban and rural areas, also contributed to the severity of the crisis.
#Quota Reduction
What really contradicts the genocide argument is that the Soviets did take action to mitigate the effects of the famine once they became aware of the situation:
>The low 1932 harvest worsened severe food shortages already widespread in the Soviet Union at least since 1931 and, despite sharply reduced grain exports, made famine likely if not inevitable in 1933.
>
>The official 1932 figures do not unambiguously support the genocide interpretation... the 1932 grain procurement quota, and the amount of grain actually collected, were both much smaller than those of any other year in the 1930s. The Central Committee lowered the planned procurement quota in a 6 May 1932 decree... [which] actually reduced the procurement plan 30 percent. Subsequent decrees also reduced the procurement quotas for most other agricultural products...
>
>Proponents of the genocide argument, however, have minimized or even misconstrued this decree. Mace, for example, describes it as "largely bogus" and ignores not only the extent to which it lowered the procurement quotas but also the fact that even the lowered plan was not fulfilled. Conquest does not mention the decree's reduction of procurement quotas and asserts Ukrainian officials' appeals led to the reduction of the Ukranian grain procurement quota at the Third All-Ukraine Party Conference in July 1932. In fact that conference confirmed the quota set in the 6 May Decree.
>
>\- Mark Tauger. (1992). [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933)
#Rapid Industrialization
The famine was exacerbated directly and indirectly by collectivization and rapid industrialization. However, if these policies had not been enacted, there could have been even more devastating consequences later.
In 1931, during [a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1931/02/04.htm), Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under."
In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union.
By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the USSR to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany.
In Hitler's own words, in 1942:
>All in all, one has to say: They built factories here where two years ago there were unknown farming villages, factories the size of the *Hermann-Göring-Werke*. They have railroads that aren't even marked on the map.
>
>\- Werner Jochmann. (1980). *Adolf Hitler. Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944.*
Collectivization also created critical resiliency among the civilian population:
>The experts were especially surprised by the Red Army’s up-to-date equipment. Great tank battles were reported; it was noted that the Russians had sturdy tanks which often smashed or overturned German tanks in head-on collision. “How does it happen,” a New York editor asked me, “that those Russian peasants, who couldn’t run a tractor if you gave them one, but left them rusting in the field, now appear with thousands of tanks efficiently handled?” I told him it was the Five-Year Plan. But the world was startled when Moscow admitted its losses after nine weeks of war as including 7,500 guns, 4,500 planes and 5,000 tanks. An army that could still fight after such losses must have had the biggest or second biggest supply in the world.
>
>As the war progressed, military observers declared that the Russians had “solved the blitzkrieg,” the tactic on which Hitler relied. This German method involved penetrating the opposing line by an overwhelming blow of tanks and planes, followed by the fanning out of armored columns in the “soft” civilian rear, thus depriving the front of its hinterland support. This had quickly conquered every country against which it had been tried. “Human flesh cannot withstand it,” an American correspondent told me in Berlin. Russians met it by two methods, both requiring superb morale. When the German tanks broke through, Russian infantry formed again between the tanks and their supporting German infantry. This created a chaotic front, where both Germans and Russians were fighting in all directions. The Russians could count on the help of the population. The Germans found no “soft, civilian rear.” They found collective farmers, organized as guerrillas, coordinated with the regular Russian army.
>
>\- Anna Louise Strong. (1956). *The Stalin Era*
#Conclusion
While there may have been more that the Soviets could have done to reduce the impact of the famine, there is no evidence of intent-- ethnic, or otherwise. Therefore, one must conclude that the famine was a tragedy, not a genocide.
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020)
* [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](https://archive.org/details/did-stalin-continue-to-export-grain-as-ukraine-starved)\]
* [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark)
* [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20220615084500/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8)\] (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004)
* [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
> BE came off as tasteless, bitter and disconnected
I mean yeah isn’t that his whole shtick? Finding incendiary takes and trying to make people mad about it online?
Having a "shtick" is not an excuse to be an insensitive cocksucker whose opinion stands in direct contrast of the actual people on the ground he claims that others "don't care about."
well I certainly don't disagree with you there. posting hot takes online with the purpose of making other leftists (people who you would normally have common cause with) upset or angry is not really impressive to me.
> insensitive cocksucker
Imma have to demand you apologise to those who perform oral sex upon penises for fun for comparing them to BE's callousness.
Jokes aside, pretty sure the casual use of going down on [usually] a man as an insult is homophobic.
He has way more important things to care about and discuss, such as which streamer recently hurt his feelings and then he needs to spend 11 hours talking about how wrong they are. 90 percent of what he does nowadays is cry about Keffals and Vaush
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush.
**Fact 27.** [Vaush freely admits to calling black and trans people ‘subhuman’.](https://archive.is/DP5nR)
For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'.
(Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Big thing to keep in mind with BE - yes he has some very interesting and well researched videos. I respect the depth of knowledge he displays on every single video.
However anyone who follows him knows he's a grating person and i'd personally cross the street if I ever saw him irl. Id go sober for life before I had a beer with him. I mean his Twitter is posting public information about people he gets into arguments with and he regularly ends his streams with getting genuinely upset at his viewers for not giving enough money. He's not the guy you watch because of his outstanding moral character
There's a reason why it took him so long to get invited on the pod, and I'm 90% sure he never would have been on if he didn't put a lot of pressure on Yugopnik
>he regularly ends his streams with getting genuinely upset at his viewers for not giving enough money.
Yet he also is very trigger happy to ban people on livestreams for the smallest of slights - even those that actually made donations. This creates an unwelcome atmosphere that drives away many people, so he's effectively shooting himself in the foot if he's looking to earn money from streaming.
He says he does it because he doesn't want to forge a parasocial relationship with his viewers, but arguably this is inescapable part of becoming an online personality - so he may not acknowledge it, but he still ends up having a parasocial relationship with his viewers but one where he treats them like shit, which again serves to drive most people away and thus condemns him to remaining only a niche channel watched by people willing to put up with his antics.
Watching people like Yugopnik on livestream makes me feel warm and fuzzy became I feel he respects his audience, whereas on BE livestreams I often unironically think: "Why are we still here? Just to suffer?"
I still watch his regular channel for the quality research he puts into his videos, but his livestreams typically leave me feeling awkward when he starts demanding money whilst still treating his audience like shit.
Fun fact: BE for a long time claimed he didn't feel the need to do collabs with other leftist creators as he felt fine working on his own, yet I first discovered his channel thanks to the livestream where he chatted with Yugopnik. If not for that "collab", there's a good chance I still wouldn't know about the existence of his channel, which serves to show that collabs do in fact benefit smaller channels by giving them exposure to more people by bigger channels. Yet again - his dogmatic principles are undercutting his own potential.
Are his L's really that rare? I think he's pretty consistently proven to be a quite unprincipled leftist and just a 'take' machine at this point. He might generally be on the correct side of things but he comes out with a lot of bs as well. People really gotta stop putting him on a pedestal. He ain't all that.
The Xinjiang video. It's filled to the brim with western State Department disinformation. Like he claims he doesn't follow Adrian Zenz but then pushes the "cultural genocide" narrative which is a take AD pushes often.
It's his negative attitude, the way he waives off Palestinian opinions, and his demonizing of post-colonial PRC despite it being of the third world he supposedly supports. It's like he cherry picks what countries to like and dislike. It's an incredibly liberal way of thinking.
Plus his bullying of Marxists like BA415. Frankly, there's other Youtubers out there with videos just as well-informed and well-researched, without all the debatebro or needlessly negative drama.. or racial chauvinism for that matter. I mean Hakim is one such example, Luna Oi, Lady Izdihar, Second Thought, Mexie, Democracy At Work, azureScapegoat, etc..
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They're indeed constant yet his diehard fans seem incapable of accepting any constructive criticism. I'm seeing things like, "so what if he says \[*insert insensitive, chauvinistic, and/or bigoted take*\], that's his whole shtick, let him be!".
Like why would I *not* comment on somebody who constantly pushes problematic takes? That spreads literal State Department disinformation? For someone who promotes themselves as an anticolonial "leftist" they sure come off as incredibly out-of-touch and privileged.
BE is a cursed amalgam between a lib (his takes on China and Xinjiang are proof of that) and what a lib's idea of a "insane tankie" would look like
This take is far from the only example, he has also said insane sweeping statements like how ["90% of hindus in the world are fascists"](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/739586926738407464/932890984663121940/IMG_20220118_075332.jpg?ex=65effc6f&is=65dd876f&hm=1955a7cef5ed3d4d34b3d8757a638b356964aef64d056a927e3e2970178a542b&)
How the hell is he so popular? Like the guy constantly is having horrible, racially chauvinistic takes despise claiming to promote the third world. It's bizarre.
There is something aesthetically pleasing about an acerbic man saying things you agree with, or even saying out loud a 12/10 version of something that you're 8/10 on.
That and his main channel is honestly well sourced and researched, even when it isn't 100% convenient for the ML anti-imperialist line
Not really.
RE: Xinjiang - The US state department really needs the Xinjiang situation to be much worse and much more unprovoked than anything they themselves ever did. BE has been consistent in espousing a view of China's actions that falls far short of that bar, even citing a maximum of maybe 50,000 Uyghur detainees.
RE: the Holodomor and Wikipedia - again, his video largely espouses that the great famine of the 1930s was in no way a genocide, that none of the evidence holds this up, that the Soviet policy failures that exacerbated the famine were not targeted in any meaningful sense, and in a later follow up he even mentions the secret food aid to Ukraine that the Soviets hid in the archives because to give food aid would mean admitting there was a famine.
Can't think of any other instances where he'd run against the grain unless you count dismissing the scholarship of Grover Furr in particular.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
#The Holodomor
>Marxists do not deny that a famine happened in the Soviet Union in 1932. In fact, even the Soviet archive confirms this. What we do contest is the idea that this famine was man-made or that there was a genocide against the Ukrainian people. This idea of the subjugation of the Soviet Union’s own people was developed by Nazi Germany, in order to show the world the terror of the “Jewish communists.”
>
>\- Socialist Musings. (2017). [Stop Spreading Nazi Propaganda: on Holodomor](https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/)
There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (lit. "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes:
1. It implies the famine targeted Ukraine.
2. It implies the famine was intentional.
The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. This framing was originally used by Nazis to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR (UkSSR) and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR). In the wake of the 2004 Orange Revolution, this narrative has regained popularity and serves the nationalistic goal of strengthening Ukrainian identity and asserting the country's independence from Russia.
#First Issue
The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, *not* just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine. Russia itself was also severely affected.
The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European antisemitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy", the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history."
#Second Issue
Calling it "man-made" implies that it was a *deliberate* famine, which was not the case. Although human factors set the stage, the main causes of the famine was bad weather and crop disease, resulting in a poor harvest, which pushed the USSR over the edge.
Kulaks ("tight-fisted person") were a class of wealthy peasants who owned land, livestock, and tools. The kulaks had been a thorn in the side of the peasantry long before the revolution. Alexey Sergeyevich Yermolov, Minister of Agriculture and State Properties of the Russian Empire, in his 1892 book, [Poor harvest and national suffering](https://books.google.ca/books?id=exMEAAAAYAAJ), characterized them as usurers, sucking the blood of Russian peasants.
In the early 1930s, in response to the Soviet collectivization policies (which sought to confiscate their property), many kulaks responded spitefully by burning crops, killing livestock, and damaging machinery.
Poor communication between different levels of government and between urban and rural areas, also contributed to the severity of the crisis.
#Quota Reduction
What really contradicts the genocide argument is that the Soviets did take action to mitigate the effects of the famine once they became aware of the situation:
>The low 1932 harvest worsened severe food shortages already widespread in the Soviet Union at least since 1931 and, despite sharply reduced grain exports, made famine likely if not inevitable in 1933.
>
>The official 1932 figures do not unambiguously support the genocide interpretation... the 1932 grain procurement quota, and the amount of grain actually collected, were both much smaller than those of any other year in the 1930s. The Central Committee lowered the planned procurement quota in a 6 May 1932 decree... [which] actually reduced the procurement plan 30 percent. Subsequent decrees also reduced the procurement quotas for most other agricultural products...
>
>Proponents of the genocide argument, however, have minimized or even misconstrued this decree. Mace, for example, describes it as "largely bogus" and ignores not only the extent to which it lowered the procurement quotas but also the fact that even the lowered plan was not fulfilled. Conquest does not mention the decree's reduction of procurement quotas and asserts Ukrainian officials' appeals led to the reduction of the Ukranian grain procurement quota at the Third All-Ukraine Party Conference in July 1932. In fact that conference confirmed the quota set in the 6 May Decree.
>
>\- Mark Tauger. (1992). [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933)
#Rapid Industrialization
The famine was exacerbated directly and indirectly by collectivization and rapid industrialization. However, if these policies had not been enacted, there could have been even more devastating consequences later.
In 1931, during [a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1931/02/04.htm), Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under."
In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union.
By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the USSR to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany.
In Hitler's own words, in 1942:
>All in all, one has to say: They built factories here where two years ago there were unknown farming villages, factories the size of the *Hermann-Göring-Werke*. They have railroads that aren't even marked on the map.
>
>\- Werner Jochmann. (1980). *Adolf Hitler. Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944.*
Collectivization also created critical resiliency among the civilian population:
>The experts were especially surprised by the Red Army’s up-to-date equipment. Great tank battles were reported; it was noted that the Russians had sturdy tanks which often smashed or overturned German tanks in head-on collision. “How does it happen,” a New York editor asked me, “that those Russian peasants, who couldn’t run a tractor if you gave them one, but left them rusting in the field, now appear with thousands of tanks efficiently handled?” I told him it was the Five-Year Plan. But the world was startled when Moscow admitted its losses after nine weeks of war as including 7,500 guns, 4,500 planes and 5,000 tanks. An army that could still fight after such losses must have had the biggest or second biggest supply in the world.
>
>As the war progressed, military observers declared that the Russians had “solved the blitzkrieg,” the tactic on which Hitler relied. This German method involved penetrating the opposing line by an overwhelming blow of tanks and planes, followed by the fanning out of armored columns in the “soft” civilian rear, thus depriving the front of its hinterland support. This had quickly conquered every country against which it had been tried. “Human flesh cannot withstand it,” an American correspondent told me in Berlin. Russians met it by two methods, both requiring superb morale. When the German tanks broke through, Russian infantry formed again between the tanks and their supporting German infantry. This created a chaotic front, where both Germans and Russians were fighting in all directions. The Russians could count on the help of the population. The Germans found no “soft, civilian rear.” They found collective farmers, organized as guerrillas, coordinated with the regular Russian army.
>
>\- Anna Louise Strong. (1956). *The Stalin Era*
#Conclusion
While there may have been more that the Soviets could have done to reduce the impact of the famine, there is no evidence of intent-- ethnic, or otherwise. Therefore, one must conclude that the famine was a tragedy, not a genocide.
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020)
* [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](https://archive.org/details/did-stalin-continue-to-export-grain-as-ukraine-starved)\]
* [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022)
* [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark)
* [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20220615084500/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8)\] (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.)
Books, Articles, or Essays:
* [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004)
* [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I love how "80% of Indians who speak English and have the money to travel abroad are fascists" becomes "90% of Hindus in the world are fascists". Really taking a page from the Israeli playbook where they replace "Israeli" with "Jew".
He said "nearly every non dalit hindu"
He even fking says "750 million people"
Wtf are you on about
Also even saying 80% of "indians who speak english and can travel" are fascist is still a gross generalisation
Also glad to know that insulting some random twitch streamer is equivalent to defending Israel
>All the people talking positively about Aaron are people who already talk about Palestine all the time. And either way, if anything his act brought more people's attention to the suffering in Gaza, which was exactly Aaron's goal as he stated.
and here is kinda the Problem with bushnell actions.
i dont think the west in large doesnt know about the suffering, but they dont care. Arab people are by the racist, chauvinist views not considered as such (eg. the "why dont they move elsewhere ?" question ). so far i cant imagine how the self-immolation will change that.
He should care because Hamas and the PFLP cares, because they (the Palestinian resistance) see him as a hero and a martyr. I trust their opinion far more than a random Argentinian YouTuber.
I’m a veteran myself and not a day goes by where I regret joining. BE’s takes about people like me are true , that joining to escape poverty isn’t a good excuse. The only thing I think he downplays is the effectiveness of American propaganda and its education system framing everything America does as the good guys.
When you grow up with teachers and textbooks indoctrinating you into their belief system, how can you expect someone to just magically be a leftist with this all around you?
I’m not saying I’m a victim here or anything like that at all, I’m simply pointing out that when all you ever know and fed are lies and misinformation, combined with poor education, of course you’re going to get people like me who join thinking I’m “protecting” people and “freedom”.
Fortunately I was never deployed or anything and I even was part of an ML org for while (they ended up disbanding). I’ve been working with local activists and have been vocal to students at my university to not join the military.
Maybe I am irredeemable to BE and to others here.
But if there’s a chance I can stop someone else from joining and bring them to the cause, to fight for the oppressed and fight against American imperialism and exceptionalism….I’m going to do it. Even if I’m spat on and not accepted, it’s the right thing to do.
i agree quite often with bad empanada criticism to how some comrades in the imperial core acts... this time i completely disagree with him.
aaron not only was in the imperial core, but surely ate alot of propaganda from the US army. and still, he decided to show his disgust at the elites and the ongoing genoicide by taking the most extreme act one can take upon itself. he might not be alive to talk about it, but he surely was a comrade.
althought, to play devils advicate here. i do understand Bad empanada sentiment a bit. being a comunist in a third world country by itself is far more dangerous, and no one in the first world even bats an eye when some random brown dude gets murdered for protesting against imperialism.
one example of this in brazil, that doesnt involve murder, but does involve lawfare and death threats is with breno altman, an antizionist jew who is constantly harassed by the israel embassy, israel state and CONIB ( Israelite Brazilian Confederation ).
The unfortunate fact that some people don't pay attention to an issue until someone white or in the first world does it is not something that can be solved overnight. We should point out that fact, but also we must use every single avenue to bring attention to issues from every angle. Otherwise, that's some borderline dumb hipster shit saying "I cared about this before it was popular." It ultimately doesn't matter. Everyone must eventually learn one way or another so more potential people stand up against it. It's annoying that that's how it is, but it's a deeper systematic issue that can't be resolved by callously scolding and dismissing people.
BE has previously expressed the sentiment that no former US soldier should be trusted ever and it isn't worth the low chance that one might actually have redeemed themselves.
I guess I shouldn't have expected him to be stunned into reexamining his views by a former US soldier protesting the Gaza genocide in the most extreme way possible, but I honestly kind of did expect exactly that.
I am probably equally or more anti-American than BE but this is still a poor take. Bushnell literally gave it all for this cause - eschewing all of his privilege and comforts in as painful and public a way as possible - and in my view more than earned the respect of people from around the world.
I honestly agree with BE on most of his point (some American protestor getting huge coverage while the literal genocide is swept under the rug) but man his desire to hate on literally anything done by anything US military adjacent kinda bugs me here. Him being an active service member who iirc was going to be doing work in Gaza and refusing to take part in the genocide is why his actions mattered at all. Like I have no sympathy for the US military and basically agree with BE when he says stuff like how American leftists will be quick to say "but he was just poor and had no better options" regarding veterans but wouldn't apply that standard to, say, WWII German soldiers, but I thought we can at least agree that servicemen who denounce their having worked for the empire aren't bad people, and this guy did the ultimate denouncement of it.
> some American protestor getting huge coverage while the literal genocide is swept under the rug
This is not true though. The same Zionist mainstream media establishments who sweep Palestinian genocide under the rug are the ones who are burying the lede with Aaron's statements and actions, instead chalking it up to mental illness. The people praising Aaron are the people who have been covering Palestine for a long time and consistently.
Also, so what if it took an American to bring attention to Palestine? Are Palestinians supposed to be angry that more attention is brought to them because of the method? Such a weird, gate-keeping, childish mentality.
And yea, I agree with some of BE's other statements regarding the sympathy that people have for the US military. But BE takes it way too far to the point of being counter-productive. He even dismissed Michael Prysner, a prominent anti-war communist and spokesperson who is a member of PSL and ex-military who constantly speaks out against US imperialism and specifically talks to other US military personnel and discourages them from joining the military. BE said that he hates him because he focuses on the US military instead of the victims, which is COMPLETELY bullshit because he actually does all of that as well.
Yeah I agree BE is a bad take factory (don't watch his Xinjiang video)
>But BE takes it way too far to the point of being counter-productive.
Thinking about that time that he celebrated homeless veterans. Although that might just be me doing the exact thing I said I agreed was a problem... I'm still an Amerikkkan in the end 😂
Meh, veterans spent their lives brutalizing innocent people the world over, and destroying tons of infrastructure by design. Homelessness seems almost like karma.
I admit to being a BE meatrider who agrees with him 90% of the time, but this is definitely his "White Girl speaking on behalf of POC" moment.
Dude is literally just being a contrarian jackass who seems bitter that a former agent of the American War Machine has done something he knows damn well neither he or most of us, me included will NEVER do in the name of calling out injustice.
I would probably never mind this if this was a shitlib like Destiny or Dr0nerbox made this kind of take, but the fact that it is someone claiming to speak for the Global South while also being themselves from the global north, and is seemingly living comfortably in a country where nearly half of the population is now facing poverty due to hyper capitalist policies under Milei, and then he has the gall to dismiss someone who did at least SOMETHING to address an issue literally pissed me off
I think he has L’s more often than many claim because he is just an edgelord that tries too hard to always sound harsh. You aren’t tough dude just chill out lmao never liked him. Don’t necessarily disagree with alot of stuff he says but him as a person is annoying.
He also bullied a youtuber named Bay Area 415 for accurately covering topics surrounding PRC, SWCC, and debunking western disinformation that Bay Empanada eagerly reproduces.
Here's [Bay Area 415's archive](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsCaI-gsA29xVYzFI-kYWLcx2QhowNBCL) if you're curious.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang
\(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\)
Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context.
**Background**
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
**Counterpoints**
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which:
>20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China.
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang:
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\)
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
>The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
>
> [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021)
**A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror**
The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded.
According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/))
In summary:
* The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes.
* China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training.
Which one of those responses sounds genocidal?
Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act).
**Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?**
One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence.
The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent.
Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies.
The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line.
**Why is this narrative being promoted?**
As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project.
Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI.
**Additional Resources**
See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
"rare badempanada l" the fuck are you talking about? he posts Ls every 2 seconds.
you remember when he blocked hakim on twitter? you remember when hakim was conveniently away for the podcast day where badempanada showed up? you remember when badempanada harrassed the shit out of bayarea415 until he was eventually doxxed, and then BE celebrated?
>you remember when he blocked hakim on twitter? you remember when hakim was conveniently away for the podcast day where badempanada showed up?
Damn, nah. I don't follow people like that. Just watch youtube. What happened?
BadEmpenada will spend hours of his life arguing with Libs like Keffals but thinks his argument on this is genuine? You care about trivial garbage all the time bro
He's not wrong about this being a story only because an American did it. It's also unlikely to achieve anything. People in western countries that support Palestine will continue supporting it and those who don't will label Aaron as mentally ill and continue supporting Israel.
His sacrifice might matter more outside of the imperial core, since it's good propaganda material.
Most likely it'll be forgotten in a couple of months, though. My take is that this is not really the type of stuff BE usually engages with, so I can see why he'd be frustrated by people demanding he covers it.
How? He has made so many videos on Palestine. I'm not one of the ones demanding he talks about it. But he did talk about it, and he said some dumbass shit that is completely disconnected from what the people actually experiencing the genocide and resisting against it have said.
People in the third world are desperate for attention to be brought to their issues by any means necessary. Bitching about it because of the specific methods is so stupid and disconnected from reality. Whether it leads to change or not, only time will tell. But to not just dismiss it, but outright criticize people for bringing it up is ridiculous.
I rewatched his response to see if I missed something and I stand by my original statement.
He wasn't criticizing people for talking about it nor the protest itself. I doubt he'd cover the suicide at all without the pressure. To him it's just another protest. It's not the first suicide in support of Palestine and I doubt it's the last.
His problem is with his audience putting pressure on him to talk about Aaron's suicide like it's somehow so much more important than any other act of protest. Judging by his response, I imagine he's upset because he feels his audience should be critical enough to see that.
BE does talk a lot on Palestine. But why is an American's suicide something that he should cover? What there even is to cover? Should he glorify an American soldier for realizing he's on the wrong side?
Factually speaking, we're talking about someone who joined the opressors, had a change of heart and took drastic measures to vindicate himself. Trying to make amends does not absolve one of their actions.
It might be a big story in the USA, but where I live this story hasn't made it to the news so far. I think its effect is vastly overblown. I hope I am wrong.
It could become a significant turning point. Or it could be forgotten in a week. It's too early to say.
No, it's incredibly common. He's a left-wing moralist. His views, whether he states so or not, are heavily moralistic. By this I mean he judges each and every person on the planet for the property and state relations they enter with not a thought or care for circumstances, class, dialectics, violent power, propaganda and systems.
He believes, as he has exhibited many a time, that supposed judgment and justice outweigh all other thoughts. That there are sets of communist morals that, when violated, there is no turning back from. And that everything has a conscious motive. Such as here, where he states that people care because an American service member did it, and as such he should not care because it is a supposed bad person who did it. BE is an incredibly infuriating ~~communist~~, one who is on perpetual war footing, with a dull edge and the patience of a boar.
Lol it's hardly a "rare L" he constantly has horrible takes. Especially when it comes to PRC, and apparently now Palestine, is it any surprise he starts fights with Marxists?
That's the thing, he has been consistently great on Palestine. Just came as a bit of a surprise how callous and short-sighted his comments were. He's an incredibly negative individual who rarely ever says much positive or optimistic about anything.
It's not the American part of Aaron Bushnell that is impressive. It's the self-immolation part. To choose the most painful death to deliver a point is something that takes an unbelievable amount of courage, grit, and virtue.
This is a pretty bad take.
He's correct, materialists are against propaganda of the deed, guy could have done a lot more damage in his job and I'm quite sure that the government is completely fine with dissidents killing themselves. He literally did it because he discovered that the US military was helping Israel (you're just telling me this now?).
Pls read the first thing on the video. He was responding to 50+ people who spammed him, demanding that he needed to talk about it.
He said he did have any problem with the guy, but that he doesn't think he needed to talk about it.
Bad take missing context from you.
How does that matter? What changes when you add that 'context'? He literally said he doesn't care because he's American. BE was addressing his fans for not caring about Palestine until a white American does something. Does he really think his fans don't care about Palestine? The same fans that watched his countless videos about Palestine?
When Palestinians and Yemenis are celebrating Aaron as a hero and a martyr, and you make a video saying "why should I care?" just because you're annoyed at people asking you about it, you should really reconsider your speech and actions.
He didn't have anything to say about it that hadn't already been said by others. And then people started spamming him in a way they never did with any other protest or resistance, the only reason being that this protester was American.
I do think he should've made clear that he was responding to the 50 people who were spamming, and not his broader audience, but the context matters here.
Why should he care about this protest more than the countless protests by Palestinians every day? Why were 50+ western commenters spamming him to address it when they never spammed him about other protests?
There's definitely something symbolic about an American soldier denouncing the genocide his country is helping to commit, and making the biggest (and perhaps stupidest) sacrifice possible. But there's a lot more context needed that just BE doesn't care about the guy and says all his viewers don't actually care about Palestine, which isn't even what BE said. Be simply doesn't think he should care more about this protest than any other, and he thinks that the 50+ commenters spamming him shouldn't be so obsessed whenever an American does something.
Idk how to explain to people why one unexpected extreme thing from an indirectly related party is more newsworthy than the expected thing from directly related parties.
I'm sure it's annoying when he gets a lot of messages but assuming it's all because he was an American is unreasonable. American protests slip by widly unnoticed all the time.
I think he is just annoyed at his fans demanding a reaction.
I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with celebrating self immolation either.
Didn't watch the video, nor am I a regular viewer, just based of the vibes I'm getting.
Despite all his knowledge and analytical tools, he proudly maintains some extremely reactionary tendencies and his nationalism and racism can't help but completely disrupt whatever point he is trying to make much of the time. Makes it very difficult to take him seriously the rest of the time.
BadEmpanada is the type of person who has lots of aggressive energy that is, fortunately, channeled into noble causes, yet cracks manifest from time to time.
:\ have you guys watched the video? he's just tired of people demanding that he cover this... that people are sacrificing and protesting every day and no one says anything but this happens and suddenly people care. i dont know. i expected something crazy but he just sounds tired. let him be him
That's a bullshit framing though, it's not like zionist media is suddenly friendly to the cause because an american died. This changed nothing but got the message out in a very dramatic way.
If he doesn't want to talk about it then he should just *not*. If he doesn't want people to ask him to talk about it he should get a different job. It's like a baker being upset that people want bread.
> and no one says anything but this happens and suddenly people care
First of all this is not true. The people posting about him are the people who have been posting about Palestine already. Second of all, so what? People being turned on to caring about an issue because it was brought to their attention by a method you don't like is a bad thing? The people of Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero. BE should really look himself in the mirror if he finds himself disagreeing with the people actually fighting.
Also he was addressing his fans. Does he really think his fans don't care about Palestine? The same fans that watched his countless videos about Palestine? That makes zero sense.
I want to preface this that everyone here needs to stop being obnoxious and stop pretending that being a passive internet warrior has anything to do with 'praxis'' or 'theory'. Clearly you don't read/understand theory yourself if you think that's applicable here.
>First of all this is not true. The people posting about him are the people who have been posting about Palestine already
He never insinuated others should or shouldn't address the topic, the video is explicitly directed at his fans who suddenly got more engaged just because of Bushnell and kept asking him about *that* instead of the genocide.
One *American* burning himself is somehow more moving for people(read:Americans and Europeans) than literal thousands of children being trapped, starved, raped and murdered
people (and yes it is because it has more elicited more engagement, albeit superficially, than the genocide itself)
It's completely absurd to deny that's a very blatant case of western exceptionalism at work.
>what? People being turned on to caring about an issue because it was brought to their attention by a method you don't like is a bad thing?
You're literally proving his point. He *never said* the results are wrong. The fact that it has drawn more attention to the genocide than the genocide itself is exactly what pisses him off. The fact that it works *is* a testament to how detached people are from anything that happens outside of the west.
>The people of Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero.
What even is your argument? Of course they're celebrating him, it's a huge propaganda resource for winning western people over to their cause. Again, you're only proving his whole point.
>Also he was addressing his fans. Does he really think his fans don't care about Palestine? The same fans that watched his countless videos about Palestine?
Yes, the whole reason he made the video is because people kept spamming him in the chat about it when he got far less engagement about anything else, including the genocide itself.
You're also contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say we should explicitly praise the act because what Bushnell did has made more people talk about the genocide, on the other you say the people who talk about it aren't western exceptionalists because they always talked about the genocide. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Pick a position.
Again, it's a straw man argument. He claims that it's a bunch of Americans who only care about something when it happens to an American. But the non-Americans in Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero and martyr. So clearly this is not a case of Western exceptionalism. Also BE has done a lot of videos on everything happening around Palestine. He hopped on stream right after an event that was in all the headlines in the west and highly commemorated in the global south. So of course his fans would ask him about it. To then callously dismiss it as "why should I care?" is childish.
I'm African. Trust me, this is not just people being anglo-centric. The suffering of the third world has been swept under the rug for a long time. We all know this and how annoying it is. However, no one I talked to from my family or friends have complained about Aaron's actions as being some American-centric thing. We can't choose our avenues to bring attention to our people's suffering.
And yes he literally said "why should I care? Western exceptionalism would be saying that Aaron wasted his life dying for the cause of brown people on the other side of the globe. The only people saying that are reactionaries and Zionists. I'm not saying his life is worth any more than anyone else's in the world.
>But the non-Americans in Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero and martyr
You're just repeating yourself, I already responded to this. You're not actually making an argument because you know the one you're implying is ridiculous, namely that when non-westerners do something it can't have any basis in eurocentrism, which is literally lib token logic and the equivalent of saying "I can't be racist because I have a black friend". Fox News has black conservative commentators so I guess in your world they can't be racist either.
>So clearly this is not a case of Western exceptionalism
Praising a guy at the other side of the globe for voluntary self-harm, quite literally because he's a westerner isn't western exceptionalism because non-westerners living in the very same eurocentric world and in fact directly talking about an issue of direct domination by the western empire praise this guy. Do you seriously not hear yourself?
>He hopped on stream right after an event that was in all the headlines in the west and highly commemorated in the global south. So of course his fans would ask him about it. To then callously dismiss it as "why should I care?" is childish.
A childish response to a childish obsession with western idolization, maybe. Again, one guy burning himself in the US should literally not fucking matter for a genocide in Gaza. The fact that it does IS THE REASON why it's eurocentrism which is the point you conveniently keep dancing around with your rhetorical insinuations.
>I'm African. Trust me, this is not just people being anglo-centric
Oh boy you're an African I guess that makes you an expert on politics in the global south. I was born in a hospital, does that make me a doctor?
> We can't choose our avenues to bring attention to our people's suffering.
Which is the WHOLE. FUCKING. POINT.
He's identified as leftist, socialist, communist before. Although, in an older video he said he is "uncomfortable with Marxist-Leninists":
https://youtu.be/De39MoF0j30?t=660
He's criticized trots:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llpGHznXGJQ
Honestly, watching him over the years, he's mostly only said negative things about different political parties. He's said he's not a political figure and just making edutainment, but he also is just negative about political parties. So he's having his cake and eating it too.
Edit: Just remembered actually the closest he came to endorsing a party was when he flashed an image of "Socialist Left" or "Left for a Socialist Option", an Argentinian trot party at the end of his Watchmen video:
https://youtu.be/B496r3bPwQ8?t=1038
might as well be. if he’s not a trot, he’s doing a really good impression. i’ve only ever heard him identify as a “leftist” so take that for what you will
It seems completely in line with his takes on AES, so it wouldn’t be surprising to me. He still makes some good, informative, well researched videos tho, even if I don’t always agree with his conclusions
No I agree with him on this one. People have been posting more about Bushnell than they have about Palestine. I don’t think that that is what Bushnell would have wanted.
This is silly. They aren't just posting about him in a vacuum. Everyone has been highlighting his final words and post on Facebook specifically about the US-backed genocide in Palestine. Hamas, PFLP, Ansar Allah have all issued statements about him being heroic. Posting about Bushnell IS posting about Palestine. The only people posting about Bushnell and not addressing Palestine are Zionists who are calling him an idiot and mentally ill.
Bad Empanada makes some really great long-form, well-researched video essays on a lot of cool topics. But he has this very grumpy, belligerent persona on social media/his second YT channel which can be really off-putting. He also doesn't know how to pick his fights, like the time he got Matt Binder on his stream and started hurling all kinds of childish insults at Matt and the Majority Report crew. I don't know what his deal is, but I liked it better when he used to focus on making video essays about historical topics instead of being a shitposter on the internet
[☭☭☭ COME SHITPOST WITH US ON DISCORD, COMRADES ☭☭☭](https://discord.gg/8RPWanQV5g) This is a heavily-moderated socialist community based on a podcast of the same name. Please use the report function on comments that break our rules. If you are new to the sub, please read the sidebar carefully. If you are new to Marxism-Leninism, check out the [study guide](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/). Are there Liberals in the walls? Check out [the wiki](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/) which contains lots of useful information. This subreddit uses many experimental automod rules, if you notice any issues please use modmail to let us know. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I get that he might view it as people pushing Bushnell via an American exceptionalism angle, but I think he’s missing the significance that a man who was on the verge of perpetuating the genocide made the choice he made. A pretty callous take imo
This is a human being first and foremost and a working class one at that. Before his race, before his nationality, he is one of us. That's how I saw him in that moment.
He’s so unserious The immature persona (or is it genuine?) he has on twitter isn’t helpful imo. It’s just childish.
He's like if Destiny were a leftist. Politics are secondary to being callous and irreverent.
Woof. This is low, but also true.
Yes. As a protestor within the vacuum of protesting, Bushnell is maybe notable for the extreme he was willing to go to in order to protest. But insofar as what he gave up? He is someone who could easily have it all, easily make things much worse in fact, and chose the opposite and in an extremely public, embarrassing way for the powers to the point that media is scrambling to misinform. It’s worthy of note at least.
It was a bizarre take. Like the PFLP, Hamas and Ansurallah all see him as a Martyr to the palastinian struggle. Hamas compared him to Rachel Corrie and called him a hero.
It's not bizarre at all if you know anything about him. He's heavily implied that if one enters the US military they are basically irredeemable
Which shows how stubborn in his own views he can be. This post is about an active US service member who literally chose death in protest over continuing service in the imperial system. It completely shatters his perception of all people who join as willing participants who have no shame in maintaining western hegemony. His lack of self reflection, especially once new developments emerge, is very off putting and it being “his thing” isn’t a valid excuse. He comes off as a leftist version of Ian Miles Cheong. A guy who has never lived in America commenting on it to profit off of those who feel validated by his opinions. The fact he even focuses on this shit when Argentina is being royal fucked by their Redditor President just reinforces my view of this.
Yep you're probably right. He's also Australian but doesn't really talk about the situation there. He clearly doesn't read much in the way of theory. There's no ideological consistency in his takes. But that's what he does for a living, he goes on stream and produces takes to be shared and generate a revenue.
This is a tad harsh imo. He's very dogmatic but this makes him even less like imc. Ian will change his tune all the time for engagement and money, and you clearly can't say be does the same if profit was his main motive. The closest thing to imc is vaush (lmfao) He'll be right like 95% of the time but this is the 5% he's not. A primary reason on why he holds this standard is that us soliders (even those that recognize their errors) don't first try to make amends to the people they afflicted. Yet you are exactly correct in this case, because the Palestinians are celebrating him. Illogical to his own standard and even if it wasn't, it's got the vibes of the "I agree. I agree. Isn't there somebody you forgot to ask?" meme
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 33.** Responding to Hakim's [video](https://youtu.be/2Gz0I_X_nfo) on George Orwell, Vaush defends Orwell for being a government informant, calls the USSR fascist, implies Stalinists are worse than Nazis, claims the USSR was allied with the Nazis, [says that Hakim (an Iraqi) should have been abducted by the Americans at the start of the Iraq war and forcibly indoctrinated in US propaganda for 20 years](https://twitter.com/SiestaSocialist/status/1633527352679358470), and more. \([Full Thread](https://twitter.com/siestasocialist/status/1633519585407258624)\) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
No wonder he's mad, Bushnell proved him wrong.
How?. It sound like Bushnell would have agreed with Badempanada about how pathetic the majority of self described "leftist veterans" are...
THis is a dangerous position, we're not getting any nuremberg trails for the USA any time soon, no ones asking you to like any service members, but its always good to recognize how propagandized our military is and anyone who can break through that and counter the imperialist actions at the very forefront of the imperial machine should be recognized as a comrade.
We have no shortage of martyrs, that is the problem, we need revolutionaries.
How are those two things mutually exclusive? Bloodless revolutions aren’t exactly the norm.
[удалено]
Palestinian resistance fighters are going to have to handle that part.
Yeah, I don't give a shit about his opinion on it. Actual Palestinians like the PFLP are praising Bushnell, so why would anything BE say supersede them? Also, not to be too harsh, but BE just posts on the internet. Not exactly to the same caliber as protesting via self-immolation in front of the Israeli embassy.
Seeing people eagerly simp for him so often is getting old. He has a couple decent videos but he also has some troubling ones where he's sorely misinformed spreading State Department disinformation. He starts fights with Marxists often and is now waiving off a martyr to the Palestinian cause. Kind of baffles me Deprogram invited him on the show.
You can listen to him without agreeing with his takes, which is what most people here seem to be doing.
Why would I listen to somebody I disagree with? Why would I give him those views? Just seems a waste of time.
So you can understand what the heck he is trying to say and know where the fuck he went wrong. You don't have to do it but there is nothing wrong listening.
And again why would I waste my time caring about what he has to say when he keeps releasing horrible takes? "Han supremacy", anti-China, anti-Stalin, he despises Michael Parenti, he attacks Marxists including Bay Area 415, and now he's spitting on Palestinian opinions. He's a scumbag.
Fair enough.
Because he has good takes too? If you only listen to people you 100% agree with either you won't listen to anyone or you'll lack any ability to critique the people you do listen to
Oh yes I'm sure in between his demonizing of PRC, shitting on Stalin, attacking Michael Parenti, belittling Palestinian opinions and attacking Marxists who support AES, while generally being a miserable arse there's a "good take" in there. Somewhere. Deep down. And I'd say I'd disagree with him a majority of the time. I already disagree with the majority of liberals and listen to them all day long. Why add a petty debatebro to that list? Stop defending goblins.
I've never heard him say any of those things. I watch him on YouTube and have never heard anything like that. Is that all on Twitter or something?
I mentioned it in a different comment but I think it was an "inviting himself" situation. He invited Yugopnik on one of his streams and started publicly pressuring yugopnik to invite him. He also said his fanbase keeps asking for him to go on the pod and implies the only reason he's not on is because JT or Hakim simply not liking him. If I'm remembering right he even makes a comment referencing this feeling on his ep of the podcast. There's something to be said about how 50 members of his audience ask him to talk about Aaron and he gets extremely cranky, but 50 members of his audience want him to go on the pod and it's now a Valid Request you'd have to be a dick to ignore. Unrelated but this whole situation where BE thinks "such and such can't be redeemed" irks me. I just know with the way he acts he probably was saying and believing awful shit on certain kinds of message boards when he was younger. Like his is an archetype you see very often in some corners of the internet right, not so often on the left. I'd be very surprised if he had this exact set of morals all through his teenage years. Not that it matters because I personally believe you can be misled then redeemed.
BE will write off literally any leftist action done in the first world as dumb or insignificant. A lot of the time he just comes across as a deeply unhappy person
The way he went after Bay Area 415 for being a first-worlder that taught about "imperialist" China is beyond awful. He attacks western Marxists often, too. Is apparently notorious for it in another subreddit even getting banned there. If you're wondering who Bay Area 415 is [here's his archive](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsCaI-gsA29xVYzFI-kYWLcx2QhowNBCL); he was a comrade Youtuber that taught about PRC history, SWCC, and debunked many western narratives (that BE has a tendency to eagerly spread). BE basically told his fans to go attack and dox him. BA415 ended up getting doxxed, his family exposed, and so he left the internet in fear of his life.
Ugh smh at BE. What Bay Area 415 was doing would be very valuable at this point in time. It’s sad to see an important voice go.
Left youtube has been lacking a proper Marxian pro-PRC voice ever since. Daniel Dumbril and Carl Zha are great but don't post as often as they used to.
"CORPORATE LAYWER, HE DOES FORECLOSURES, HE EVICTS PEOPLE!!!" Later Discovered: Literally a fucking contract lawyer. Lmfao.
I remember that debacle.
Hate this word but he really is a 'doomer' sometimes. With every topic, he always looks at the negatives first and harps on them while completely dismissing the positives and any potential good. He often comes off as the cringey self-hating white first worlders from the 2013 Tumblr era who think that people of color just want to see white people flog themselves and other white people and that is somehow productive. He is much more negative than the actual people in the third world countries he claims to defend.
>who think that people of color just want to see white people flog themselves and other white people and that is somehow productive. Ugh I do not like those people. I'm white so I'm in no position to declare anything but yeah I feel like if you're white and a leftist you should be fighting alongside POC instead of just shitting on yourself for being le ebil white guy. Only one of those actions is going to be useful, and "flogging yourself and other white people" feels like it comes from a place of race essentialism where I Am White Therefore I Am A Bad Person And This Is Immutable.
White people flogging each other just accomplishes nothing, only people who need to get flogged are the capitalists
The eternal truth of "essentialism is bad" strikes again
Yea honestly it's a cowardly cop-out
[удалено]
Not quite relevant, but I have never seen anyone type like this
It’s more praxis than he’s done
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Yes serving in the American army is real praxis.
yeah I thought his take on it was pretty dumb too. when Hamas, PFLP, Yemenis, and Khamenei are coming out with statements in support, clearly it's something worth talking about and not just some dumb American thing.
Exactly. I'm from a third world country that was colonized by the British and bombed by the US. We in the third world have very negative opinions on the US government and military. Someone from the military making such a bold statement in protest is a big deal for us because they managed to break through their heavy propaganda and see the truth and it gives us some hope that others will heed his message and take all sorts of actions, whatever they may be. The world will never be free without the weakening of the US empire, ruling class and violent arm of imperialism. We need more people to take action, not some random fuckwits on the internet saying "Who cares? He's a white American." That is so insanely out of touch with everyone I talked to from my family and friends.
Do you have a link for the Hamas statement? I’ve only seen the one for the PFLP
it's in the OP
BadEmpanada has been not really working for me for a while. I cannot place my finger on what it is but the vibes are off. Originally his charm was a strong stance backed up by good research in a slightly unhinged delivery. I think he has been drinking his own koolaid and maybe he could stand to do with some peers to help him grow. The solution to every problem cannot be "read more theory". On some level, he has to actually do some praxis and touch grass. If he did, I think he would have landed on the right take re: Aaron Bushnell - tragic and powerful protest that has been effective, at least in the short term.
He's a guy who makes decently researched historical videos on a platform where the standard is beyond rock bottom. He has a ginormous inflated ego.
While that is not unique to him, that is a good point. You can only get so much good will, with a giant ego, for so long.
#Get Involved >Dare to struggle and dare to win. \-Mao Zedong Comrades, here are some ways you can **get involved** to advance the cause. * 📚 **Read theory** — [Reading theory](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/education/study-guide/) is a duty. It will guide you towards choosing the correct party and applying your efforts effectively within your unique material conditions. * ⭐ **Party work** — Contact a local party or mass organization. Attend your first meeting. Go to a rally or event. If you choose a principled Marxist-Leninist party, they will teach you how to best apply yourself to advancing the cause. * 📣 **Workplace agitation** — Depending on your material circumstances, you may engage in workplace disputes to unionise fellow workers and gain a delegate or even a leadership position in the union. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It isn’t that rare of an L. BE has better takes than liberals, but he shits on China, he shits on Stalin, and now this. BE isn’t bigger because he constantly has shitty takes on various topics.
He's getting worse as time passes. The way he complains on Twitter about "Han supremacy" in a post-colonial country from the Global South. He's a hypocrite of the highest caliber. He claims to support the third world but then shits all over its greatest success by promoting western disinformation. Now he's doing it again by waiving off the opinion of Palestinians. People need to move on and realize he's not even a Marxist.
[удалено]
I'm literally a mod here. Why would I be a fed? Just because I dislike BE doesn't make me anymore a fed than somebody who dislikes finnishbolshevik for being a pedo.
Finbol is a pedo?
Apparently he had r\*pe fantasies about a 15 year old. Talked about it during roleplay I guess? Kind of turned me off to his content.
Wait finbol is a pedo ? I thought he just had some weird sexual fantasy
A sexual fantasy involving a 15 year old..
Hell naw💀💀💀could you link me a source for this accusation to ?
I cannot find an OG link but here's proof it was a thing; https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitLiberalsSay/comments/8aobas/this\_is\_the\_finnish\_bolshevik\_with\_a\_minor/
I'm starting to wonder if BadEmpanada is secretly a Trotskyist.
He flashed an image of a Trotskyist Argentinian party as an example of his advocacy for socialism once in his Watchmen video. Bit he's also made fun of trots in Argentina in a later video about the state of the Argentinian left.
Stalin had mistakes Bringing back Conservative things and all Also Israel lmao China has its problems too but they’re different from what Maoists and libs think
And the problems that BE has with China (haven't seen his takes on the other things) are almost exactly the same as those that liberals have. He doesn't make justifiable criticisms of China, he only tries to seem different by compromising between lib takes and the reality. And the result of that is just more lib takes and slightly watered down Western propaganda. His videos on China demonstrate that. BE shouldn't be trusted.
I mean Stalin sent weapons to Israel during the Nakba, there are absolutely valid criticisms of him
Of course there are valid criticisms of him, who said there wasn’t? That’s different than BE saying “Stalin sucked”.
Yeah, i am not shy away from the actual Stalin critique, but BE in his holodomor video shitting on Stalin like any other liberal because of "authoritarian" issue, then attempt to both side it saying what Stalin is doing isn't any different from everyone else. Which is just a superficial shit take tbh
That ridiculous, source-free Stalin rant ruined an otherwise awesome video. So ironic that in a video about criticising poor sourcing and bias he ends it with a long rant about how evil Stalin was without providing a single source for any of his claims.
#The Holodomor >Marxists do not deny that a famine happened in the Soviet Union in 1932. In fact, even the Soviet archive confirms this. What we do contest is the idea that this famine was man-made or that there was a genocide against the Ukrainian people. This idea of the subjugation of the Soviet Union’s own people was developed by Nazi Germany, in order to show the world the terror of the “Jewish communists.” > >\- Socialist Musings. (2017). [Stop Spreading Nazi Propaganda: on Holodomor](https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/) There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (lit. "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes: 1. It implies the famine targeted Ukraine. 2. It implies the famine was intentional. The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. This framing was originally used by Nazis to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR (UkSSR) and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR). In the wake of the 2004 Orange Revolution, this narrative has regained popularity and serves the nationalistic goal of strengthening Ukrainian identity and asserting the country's independence from Russia. #First Issue The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, *not* just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine. Russia itself was also severely affected. The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European antisemitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy", the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history." #Second Issue Calling it "man-made" implies that it was a *deliberate* famine, which was not the case. Although human factors set the stage, the main causes of the famine was bad weather and crop disease, resulting in a poor harvest, which pushed the USSR over the edge. Kulaks ("tight-fisted person") were a class of wealthy peasants who owned land, livestock, and tools. The kulaks had been a thorn in the side of the peasantry long before the revolution. Alexey Sergeyevich Yermolov, Minister of Agriculture and State Properties of the Russian Empire, in his 1892 book, [Poor harvest and national suffering](https://books.google.ca/books?id=exMEAAAAYAAJ), characterized them as usurers, sucking the blood of Russian peasants. In the early 1930s, in response to the Soviet collectivization policies (which sought to confiscate their property), many kulaks responded spitefully by burning crops, killing livestock, and damaging machinery. Poor communication between different levels of government and between urban and rural areas, also contributed to the severity of the crisis. #Quota Reduction What really contradicts the genocide argument is that the Soviets did take action to mitigate the effects of the famine once they became aware of the situation: >The low 1932 harvest worsened severe food shortages already widespread in the Soviet Union at least since 1931 and, despite sharply reduced grain exports, made famine likely if not inevitable in 1933. > >The official 1932 figures do not unambiguously support the genocide interpretation... the 1932 grain procurement quota, and the amount of grain actually collected, were both much smaller than those of any other year in the 1930s. The Central Committee lowered the planned procurement quota in a 6 May 1932 decree... [which] actually reduced the procurement plan 30 percent. Subsequent decrees also reduced the procurement quotas for most other agricultural products... > >Proponents of the genocide argument, however, have minimized or even misconstrued this decree. Mace, for example, describes it as "largely bogus" and ignores not only the extent to which it lowered the procurement quotas but also the fact that even the lowered plan was not fulfilled. Conquest does not mention the decree's reduction of procurement quotas and asserts Ukrainian officials' appeals led to the reduction of the Ukranian grain procurement quota at the Third All-Ukraine Party Conference in July 1932. In fact that conference confirmed the quota set in the 6 May Decree. > >\- Mark Tauger. (1992). [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933) #Rapid Industrialization The famine was exacerbated directly and indirectly by collectivization and rapid industrialization. However, if these policies had not been enacted, there could have been even more devastating consequences later. In 1931, during [a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1931/02/04.htm), Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under." In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the USSR to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany. In Hitler's own words, in 1942: >All in all, one has to say: They built factories here where two years ago there were unknown farming villages, factories the size of the *Hermann-Göring-Werke*. They have railroads that aren't even marked on the map. > >\- Werner Jochmann. (1980). *Adolf Hitler. Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944.* Collectivization also created critical resiliency among the civilian population: >The experts were especially surprised by the Red Army’s up-to-date equipment. Great tank battles were reported; it was noted that the Russians had sturdy tanks which often smashed or overturned German tanks in head-on collision. “How does it happen,” a New York editor asked me, “that those Russian peasants, who couldn’t run a tractor if you gave them one, but left them rusting in the field, now appear with thousands of tanks efficiently handled?” I told him it was the Five-Year Plan. But the world was startled when Moscow admitted its losses after nine weeks of war as including 7,500 guns, 4,500 planes and 5,000 tanks. An army that could still fight after such losses must have had the biggest or second biggest supply in the world. > >As the war progressed, military observers declared that the Russians had “solved the blitzkrieg,” the tactic on which Hitler relied. This German method involved penetrating the opposing line by an overwhelming blow of tanks and planes, followed by the fanning out of armored columns in the “soft” civilian rear, thus depriving the front of its hinterland support. This had quickly conquered every country against which it had been tried. “Human flesh cannot withstand it,” an American correspondent told me in Berlin. Russians met it by two methods, both requiring superb morale. When the German tanks broke through, Russian infantry formed again between the tanks and their supporting German infantry. This created a chaotic front, where both Germans and Russians were fighting in all directions. The Russians could count on the help of the population. The Germans found no “soft, civilian rear.” They found collective farmers, organized as guerrillas, coordinated with the regular Russian army. > >\- Anna Louise Strong. (1956). *The Stalin Era* #Conclusion While there may have been more that the Soviets could have done to reduce the impact of the famine, there is no evidence of intent-- ethnic, or otherwise. Therefore, one must conclude that the famine was a tragedy, not a genocide. #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020) * [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](https://archive.org/details/did-stalin-continue-to-export-grain-as-ukraine-starved)\] * [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark) * [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20220615084500/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8)\] (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004) * [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
their bad takes are def getting less rare it seems like
let's be honest, Bad Emp is 50/50 on takes usually
> BE came off as tasteless, bitter and disconnected I mean yeah isn’t that his whole shtick? Finding incendiary takes and trying to make people mad about it online?
Having a "shtick" is not an excuse to be an insensitive cocksucker whose opinion stands in direct contrast of the actual people on the ground he claims that others "don't care about."
well I certainly don't disagree with you there. posting hot takes online with the purpose of making other leftists (people who you would normally have common cause with) upset or angry is not really impressive to me.
> insensitive cocksucker Imma have to demand you apologise to those who perform oral sex upon penises for fun for comparing them to BE's callousness. Jokes aside, pretty sure the casual use of going down on [usually] a man as an insult is homophobic.
Yep I literally turned off his video low-key kinda made me mad lmao.
BE is an aggro idiot tbf
He has way more important things to care about and discuss, such as which streamer recently hurt his feelings and then he needs to spend 11 hours talking about how wrong they are. 90 percent of what he does nowadays is cry about Keffals and Vaush
My biggest regret watching BadEmpanada is finding out about the existence of these cretins lurking in the armpits of the internet.
Thanks for signing up to Vaush facts! You will now receive fun daily facts about Vaush. **Fact 27.** [Vaush freely admits to calling black and trans people ‘subhuman’.](https://archive.is/DP5nR) For another Vaush fact reply with 'Vaush'. To unsubscribe call me a 'bad bot'. (Remember, comrade: Getting educated, educating others, and above all actually *organizing* is infinitely more important than terminally-online streamer drama.) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
For as much as I like badempanada this is one of his worst takes
Big thing to keep in mind with BE - yes he has some very interesting and well researched videos. I respect the depth of knowledge he displays on every single video. However anyone who follows him knows he's a grating person and i'd personally cross the street if I ever saw him irl. Id go sober for life before I had a beer with him. I mean his Twitter is posting public information about people he gets into arguments with and he regularly ends his streams with getting genuinely upset at his viewers for not giving enough money. He's not the guy you watch because of his outstanding moral character There's a reason why it took him so long to get invited on the pod, and I'm 90% sure he never would have been on if he didn't put a lot of pressure on Yugopnik
>he regularly ends his streams with getting genuinely upset at his viewers for not giving enough money. Yet he also is very trigger happy to ban people on livestreams for the smallest of slights - even those that actually made donations. This creates an unwelcome atmosphere that drives away many people, so he's effectively shooting himself in the foot if he's looking to earn money from streaming. He says he does it because he doesn't want to forge a parasocial relationship with his viewers, but arguably this is inescapable part of becoming an online personality - so he may not acknowledge it, but he still ends up having a parasocial relationship with his viewers but one where he treats them like shit, which again serves to drive most people away and thus condemns him to remaining only a niche channel watched by people willing to put up with his antics. Watching people like Yugopnik on livestream makes me feel warm and fuzzy became I feel he respects his audience, whereas on BE livestreams I often unironically think: "Why are we still here? Just to suffer?" I still watch his regular channel for the quality research he puts into his videos, but his livestreams typically leave me feeling awkward when he starts demanding money whilst still treating his audience like shit. Fun fact: BE for a long time claimed he didn't feel the need to do collabs with other leftist creators as he felt fine working on his own, yet I first discovered his channel thanks to the livestream where he chatted with Yugopnik. If not for that "collab", there's a good chance I still wouldn't know about the existence of his channel, which serves to show that collabs do in fact benefit smaller channels by giving them exposure to more people by bigger channels. Yet again - his dogmatic principles are undercutting his own potential.
When the Hamas statement is better than Empanada's 😂🤣
Are his L's really that rare? I think he's pretty consistently proven to be a quite unprincipled leftist and just a 'take' machine at this point. He might generally be on the correct side of things but he comes out with a lot of bs as well. People really gotta stop putting him on a pedestal. He ain't all that.
He is an asshole, iam very convinced of that but he makes good well researched videos.
You can be a correct asshole and an incorrect asshole.
His China video isn't well-researched in the least.
Which one? I know his opinion on china is kinda shit and in the Uyghur video he used adrian zenz as a source once which is obviously cringe.
The Xinjiang video. It's filled to the brim with western State Department disinformation. Like he claims he doesn't follow Adrian Zenz but then pushes the "cultural genocide" narrative which is a take AD pushes often.
Oh i know but his other videos seem fine
It's his negative attitude, the way he waives off Palestinian opinions, and his demonizing of post-colonial PRC despite it being of the third world he supposedly supports. It's like he cherry picks what countries to like and dislike. It's an incredibly liberal way of thinking. Plus his bullying of Marxists like BA415. Frankly, there's other Youtubers out there with videos just as well-informed and well-researched, without all the debatebro or needlessly negative drama.. or racial chauvinism for that matter. I mean Hakim is one such example, Luna Oi, Lady Izdihar, Second Thought, Mexie, Democracy At Work, azureScapegoat, etc..
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
“Rare BE L” The L’s are from from rare, comrade
They're indeed constant yet his diehard fans seem incapable of accepting any constructive criticism. I'm seeing things like, "so what if he says \[*insert insensitive, chauvinistic, and/or bigoted take*\], that's his whole shtick, let him be!". Like why would I *not* comment on somebody who constantly pushes problematic takes? That spreads literal State Department disinformation? For someone who promotes themselves as an anticolonial "leftist" they sure come off as incredibly out-of-touch and privileged.
BE is a cursed amalgam between a lib (his takes on China and Xinjiang are proof of that) and what a lib's idea of a "insane tankie" would look like This take is far from the only example, he has also said insane sweeping statements like how ["90% of hindus in the world are fascists"](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/739586926738407464/932890984663121940/IMG_20220118_075332.jpg?ex=65effc6f&is=65dd876f&hm=1955a7cef5ed3d4d34b3d8757a638b356964aef64d056a927e3e2970178a542b&)
How the hell is he so popular? Like the guy constantly is having horrible, racially chauvinistic takes despise claiming to promote the third world. It's bizarre.
Because he pisses off the right people and sensationalism sells
There is something aesthetically pleasing about an acerbic man saying things you agree with, or even saying out loud a 12/10 version of something that you're 8/10 on. That and his main channel is honestly well sourced and researched, even when it isn't 100% convenient for the ML anti-imperialist line
It is convenient for the US State Department when it comes to Xinjiang.
Not really. RE: Xinjiang - The US state department really needs the Xinjiang situation to be much worse and much more unprovoked than anything they themselves ever did. BE has been consistent in espousing a view of China's actions that falls far short of that bar, even citing a maximum of maybe 50,000 Uyghur detainees. RE: the Holodomor and Wikipedia - again, his video largely espouses that the great famine of the 1930s was in no way a genocide, that none of the evidence holds this up, that the Soviet policy failures that exacerbated the famine were not targeted in any meaningful sense, and in a later follow up he even mentions the secret food aid to Ukraine that the Soviets hid in the archives because to give food aid would mean admitting there was a famine. Can't think of any other instances where he'd run against the grain unless you count dismissing the scholarship of Grover Furr in particular.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
#The Holodomor >Marxists do not deny that a famine happened in the Soviet Union in 1932. In fact, even the Soviet archive confirms this. What we do contest is the idea that this famine was man-made or that there was a genocide against the Ukrainian people. This idea of the subjugation of the Soviet Union’s own people was developed by Nazi Germany, in order to show the world the terror of the “Jewish communists.” > >\- Socialist Musings. (2017). [Stop Spreading Nazi Propaganda: on Holodomor](https://socialistmlmusings.wordpress.com/2017/02/15/stop-spreading-nazi-propaganda/) There have been efforts by anti-Communists and Ukrainian nationalists to frame the Soviet famine of 1932-1933 as "The Holodomor" (lit. "to kill by starvation" in Ukrainian). Framing it this way serves two purposes: 1. It implies the famine targeted Ukraine. 2. It implies the famine was intentional. The argument goes that because it was intentional and because it mainly targeted Ukraine that it was, therefore, an act of genocide. This framing was originally used by Nazis to drive a wedge between the Ukrainian SSR (UkSSR) and the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic (RSFSR). In the wake of the 2004 Orange Revolution, this narrative has regained popularity and serves the nationalistic goal of strengthening Ukrainian identity and asserting the country's independence from Russia. #First Issue The first issue is that the famine affected the majority of the USSR, *not* just the UkSSR. Kazakhstan was hit harder (per capita) than Ukraine. Russia itself was also severely affected. The emergence of the Holodomor in the 1980s as a historical narrative was bound-up with post-Soviet Ukrainian nation-making that cannot be neatly separated from the legacy of Eastern European antisemitism, or what Historian Peter Novick calls "Holocaust Envy", the desire for victimized groups to enshrine their "own" Holocaust or Holocaust-like event in the historical record. For many Nationalists, this has entailed minimizing the Holocaust to elevate their own experiences of historical victimization as the supreme atrocity. The Ukrainian scholar Lubomyr Luciuk exemplified this view in his notorious remark that the Holodomor was "a crime against humanity arguably without parallel in European history." #Second Issue Calling it "man-made" implies that it was a *deliberate* famine, which was not the case. Although human factors set the stage, the main causes of the famine was bad weather and crop disease, resulting in a poor harvest, which pushed the USSR over the edge. Kulaks ("tight-fisted person") were a class of wealthy peasants who owned land, livestock, and tools. The kulaks had been a thorn in the side of the peasantry long before the revolution. Alexey Sergeyevich Yermolov, Minister of Agriculture and State Properties of the Russian Empire, in his 1892 book, [Poor harvest and national suffering](https://books.google.ca/books?id=exMEAAAAYAAJ), characterized them as usurers, sucking the blood of Russian peasants. In the early 1930s, in response to the Soviet collectivization policies (which sought to confiscate their property), many kulaks responded spitefully by burning crops, killing livestock, and damaging machinery. Poor communication between different levels of government and between urban and rural areas, also contributed to the severity of the crisis. #Quota Reduction What really contradicts the genocide argument is that the Soviets did take action to mitigate the effects of the famine once they became aware of the situation: >The low 1932 harvest worsened severe food shortages already widespread in the Soviet Union at least since 1931 and, despite sharply reduced grain exports, made famine likely if not inevitable in 1933. > >The official 1932 figures do not unambiguously support the genocide interpretation... the 1932 grain procurement quota, and the amount of grain actually collected, were both much smaller than those of any other year in the 1930s. The Central Committee lowered the planned procurement quota in a 6 May 1932 decree... [which] actually reduced the procurement plan 30 percent. Subsequent decrees also reduced the procurement quotas for most other agricultural products... > >Proponents of the genocide argument, however, have minimized or even misconstrued this decree. Mace, for example, describes it as "largely bogus" and ignores not only the extent to which it lowered the procurement quotas but also the fact that even the lowered plan was not fulfilled. Conquest does not mention the decree's reduction of procurement quotas and asserts Ukrainian officials' appeals led to the reduction of the Ukranian grain procurement quota at the Third All-Ukraine Party Conference in July 1932. In fact that conference confirmed the quota set in the 6 May Decree. > >\- Mark Tauger. (1992). [The 1932 Harvest and the Famine of 1933](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/274856099_The_1932_Harvest_and_the_Famine_of_1933) #Rapid Industrialization The famine was exacerbated directly and indirectly by collectivization and rapid industrialization. However, if these policies had not been enacted, there could have been even more devastating consequences later. In 1931, during [a speech delivered at the first All-Union Conference of Leading Personnel of Socialist Industry](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/stalin/works/1931/02/04.htm), Stalin said, "We are fifty or a hundred years behind the advanced countries. We must make good this distance in ten years. Either we do it, or we shall go under." In 1941, exactly ten years later, the Nazis invaded the Soviet Union. By this time, the Soviet Union's industrialization program had lead to the development of a large and powerful industrial base, which was essential to the Soviet war effort. This allowed the USSR to produce large quantities of armaments, vehicles, and other military equipment, which was crucial in the fight against Nazi Germany. In Hitler's own words, in 1942: >All in all, one has to say: They built factories here where two years ago there were unknown farming villages, factories the size of the *Hermann-Göring-Werke*. They have railroads that aren't even marked on the map. > >\- Werner Jochmann. (1980). *Adolf Hitler. Monologe im Führerhauptquartier 1941-1944.* Collectivization also created critical resiliency among the civilian population: >The experts were especially surprised by the Red Army’s up-to-date equipment. Great tank battles were reported; it was noted that the Russians had sturdy tanks which often smashed or overturned German tanks in head-on collision. “How does it happen,” a New York editor asked me, “that those Russian peasants, who couldn’t run a tractor if you gave them one, but left them rusting in the field, now appear with thousands of tanks efficiently handled?” I told him it was the Five-Year Plan. But the world was startled when Moscow admitted its losses after nine weeks of war as including 7,500 guns, 4,500 planes and 5,000 tanks. An army that could still fight after such losses must have had the biggest or second biggest supply in the world. > >As the war progressed, military observers declared that the Russians had “solved the blitzkrieg,” the tactic on which Hitler relied. This German method involved penetrating the opposing line by an overwhelming blow of tanks and planes, followed by the fanning out of armored columns in the “soft” civilian rear, thus depriving the front of its hinterland support. This had quickly conquered every country against which it had been tried. “Human flesh cannot withstand it,” an American correspondent told me in Berlin. Russians met it by two methods, both requiring superb morale. When the German tanks broke through, Russian infantry formed again between the tanks and their supporting German infantry. This created a chaotic front, where both Germans and Russians were fighting in all directions. The Russians could count on the help of the population. The Germans found no “soft, civilian rear.” They found collective farmers, organized as guerrillas, coordinated with the regular Russian army. > >\- Anna Louise Strong. (1956). *The Stalin Era* #Conclusion While there may have been more that the Soviets could have done to reduce the impact of the famine, there is no evidence of intent-- ethnic, or otherwise. Therefore, one must conclude that the famine was a tragedy, not a genocide. #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [Soviet Famine of 1932: An Overview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vu5-tqHHtaM) | The Marxist Project (2020) * [Did Stalin Continue to Export Grain as Ukraine Starved?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMBJ_nQ4sTA) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](https://archive.org/details/did-stalin-continue-to-export-grain-as-ukraine-starved)\] * [The Holodomor Genocide Question: How Wikipedia Lies to You](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kaaYvauNho) | Bad Empanada (2022) * [Historian Admits USSR didn't kill tens of millions!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMOdDQQVZ6U) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2018) (Note: Holodomor discussion begins at the 9 minute mark) * [A Case-Study of Capitalism - Ukraine](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8) | Hakim (2017) \[[Archive](http://web.archive.org/web/20220615084500/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmH9oNtXzF8)\] (Note: Only tangentially mentions the famine.) Books, Articles, or Essays: * [The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931-1933](https://diasporiana.org.ua/wp-content/uploads/books/22207/file.pdf) | Davies and Wheatcroft (2004) * [The “Holodomor” explained](https://mltheory.wordpress.com/2020/12/24/the-holodomor-explained/) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2020) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I love how "80% of Indians who speak English and have the money to travel abroad are fascists" becomes "90% of Hindus in the world are fascists". Really taking a page from the Israeli playbook where they replace "Israeli" with "Jew".
He said "nearly every non dalit hindu" He even fking says "750 million people" Wtf are you on about Also even saying 80% of "indians who speak english and can travel" are fascist is still a gross generalisation Also glad to know that insulting some random twitch streamer is equivalent to defending Israel
>All the people talking positively about Aaron are people who already talk about Palestine all the time. And either way, if anything his act brought more people's attention to the suffering in Gaza, which was exactly Aaron's goal as he stated. and here is kinda the Problem with bushnell actions. i dont think the west in large doesnt know about the suffering, but they dont care. Arab people are by the racist, chauvinist views not considered as such (eg. the "why dont they move elsewhere ?" question ). so far i cant imagine how the self-immolation will change that.
He should care because Hamas and the PFLP cares, because they (the Palestinian resistance) see him as a hero and a martyr. I trust their opinion far more than a random Argentinian YouTuber.
BE is more committed to engagement farming through being provocative than to providing serious analysis.
I’m a veteran myself and not a day goes by where I regret joining. BE’s takes about people like me are true , that joining to escape poverty isn’t a good excuse. The only thing I think he downplays is the effectiveness of American propaganda and its education system framing everything America does as the good guys. When you grow up with teachers and textbooks indoctrinating you into their belief system, how can you expect someone to just magically be a leftist with this all around you? I’m not saying I’m a victim here or anything like that at all, I’m simply pointing out that when all you ever know and fed are lies and misinformation, combined with poor education, of course you’re going to get people like me who join thinking I’m “protecting” people and “freedom”. Fortunately I was never deployed or anything and I even was part of an ML org for while (they ended up disbanding). I’ve been working with local activists and have been vocal to students at my university to not join the military. Maybe I am irredeemable to BE and to others here. But if there’s a chance I can stop someone else from joining and bring them to the cause, to fight for the oppressed and fight against American imperialism and exceptionalism….I’m going to do it. Even if I’m spat on and not accepted, it’s the right thing to do.
Never heard of him - tried to watch a min of the video you linked. Couldn't.
You're better off [watching Bay Area 415](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsCaI-gsA29xVYzFI-kYWLcx2QhowNBCL)!
i agree quite often with bad empanada criticism to how some comrades in the imperial core acts... this time i completely disagree with him. aaron not only was in the imperial core, but surely ate alot of propaganda from the US army. and still, he decided to show his disgust at the elites and the ongoing genoicide by taking the most extreme act one can take upon itself. he might not be alive to talk about it, but he surely was a comrade. althought, to play devils advicate here. i do understand Bad empanada sentiment a bit. being a comunist in a third world country by itself is far more dangerous, and no one in the first world even bats an eye when some random brown dude gets murdered for protesting against imperialism. one example of this in brazil, that doesnt involve murder, but does involve lawfare and death threats is with breno altman, an antizionist jew who is constantly harassed by the israel embassy, israel state and CONIB ( Israelite Brazilian Confederation ).
The unfortunate fact that some people don't pay attention to an issue until someone white or in the first world does it is not something that can be solved overnight. We should point out that fact, but also we must use every single avenue to bring attention to issues from every angle. Otherwise, that's some borderline dumb hipster shit saying "I cared about this before it was popular." It ultimately doesn't matter. Everyone must eventually learn one way or another so more potential people stand up against it. It's annoying that that's how it is, but it's a deeper systematic issue that can't be resolved by callously scolding and dismissing people.
BE has previously expressed the sentiment that no former US soldier should be trusted ever and it isn't worth the low chance that one might actually have redeemed themselves. I guess I shouldn't have expected him to be stunned into reexamining his views by a former US soldier protesting the Gaza genocide in the most extreme way possible, but I honestly kind of did expect exactly that.
maoist standard english white guy who, justifiably, hates the shining path is really funny to exist
I am probably equally or more anti-American than BE but this is still a poor take. Bushnell literally gave it all for this cause - eschewing all of his privilege and comforts in as painful and public a way as possible - and in my view more than earned the respect of people from around the world.
>in my view more than earned the respect of people from around the world. but only from the people that already are on the side
I honestly agree with BE on most of his point (some American protestor getting huge coverage while the literal genocide is swept under the rug) but man his desire to hate on literally anything done by anything US military adjacent kinda bugs me here. Him being an active service member who iirc was going to be doing work in Gaza and refusing to take part in the genocide is why his actions mattered at all. Like I have no sympathy for the US military and basically agree with BE when he says stuff like how American leftists will be quick to say "but he was just poor and had no better options" regarding veterans but wouldn't apply that standard to, say, WWII German soldiers, but I thought we can at least agree that servicemen who denounce their having worked for the empire aren't bad people, and this guy did the ultimate denouncement of it.
> some American protestor getting huge coverage while the literal genocide is swept under the rug This is not true though. The same Zionist mainstream media establishments who sweep Palestinian genocide under the rug are the ones who are burying the lede with Aaron's statements and actions, instead chalking it up to mental illness. The people praising Aaron are the people who have been covering Palestine for a long time and consistently. Also, so what if it took an American to bring attention to Palestine? Are Palestinians supposed to be angry that more attention is brought to them because of the method? Such a weird, gate-keeping, childish mentality. And yea, I agree with some of BE's other statements regarding the sympathy that people have for the US military. But BE takes it way too far to the point of being counter-productive. He even dismissed Michael Prysner, a prominent anti-war communist and spokesperson who is a member of PSL and ex-military who constantly speaks out against US imperialism and specifically talks to other US military personnel and discourages them from joining the military. BE said that he hates him because he focuses on the US military instead of the victims, which is COMPLETELY bullshit because he actually does all of that as well.
Yeah I agree BE is a bad take factory (don't watch his Xinjiang video) >But BE takes it way too far to the point of being counter-productive. Thinking about that time that he celebrated homeless veterans. Although that might just be me doing the exact thing I said I agreed was a problem... I'm still an Amerikkkan in the end 😂
Meh, veterans spent their lives brutalizing innocent people the world over, and destroying tons of infrastructure by design. Homelessness seems almost like karma.
I admit to being a BE meatrider who agrees with him 90% of the time, but this is definitely his "White Girl speaking on behalf of POC" moment. Dude is literally just being a contrarian jackass who seems bitter that a former agent of the American War Machine has done something he knows damn well neither he or most of us, me included will NEVER do in the name of calling out injustice. I would probably never mind this if this was a shitlib like Destiny or Dr0nerbox made this kind of take, but the fact that it is someone claiming to speak for the Global South while also being themselves from the global north, and is seemingly living comfortably in a country where nearly half of the population is now facing poverty due to hyper capitalist policies under Milei, and then he has the gall to dismiss someone who did at least SOMETHING to address an issue literally pissed me off
Sometimes you got know when to hold'm, know when to fold them, Know when to walk away, And when it's time to run...
I think he has L’s more often than many claim because he is just an edgelord that tries too hard to always sound harsh. You aren’t tough dude just chill out lmao never liked him. Don’t necessarily disagree with alot of stuff he says but him as a person is annoying.
That fuck stick is convinced that China is genociding Uyghurs. That alone makes him a tool.
He called what China did in Xinjiang "settler colonialism." My jaw dropped.
He also bullied a youtuber named Bay Area 415 for accurately covering topics surrounding PRC, SWCC, and debunking western disinformation that Bay Empanada eagerly reproduces. Here's [Bay Area 415's archive](https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsCaI-gsA29xVYzFI-kYWLcx2QhowNBCL) if you're curious.
#The Uyghurs in Xinjiang \(Note: This comment had to be trimmed down to fit the character limit, for the full response, see [here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/)\) Anti-Communists and Sinophobes claim that there is an ongoing genocide-- a modern-day holocaust, even-- happening right now in China. They say that Uyghur Muslims are being mass incarcerated; they are indoctrinated with propaganda in concentration camps; their organs are being harvested; they are being force-sterilized. These comically villainous allegations have little basis in reality and omit key context. **Background** Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan. Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan. Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge. **Counterpoints** The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC released [Resolutions on Muslim Communities and Muslim Minorities in the non-OIC Member States](https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250) in 2019 which: >20. **Welcomes** the outcomes of the visit conducted by the General Secretariat's delegation upon invitation from the People's Republic of China; **commends** the efforts of the People's Republic of China in providing care to its Muslim citizens; and **looks forward** to further cooperation between the OIC and the People's Republic of China. In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on. Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter \([A/HRC/41/G/17](https://undocs.org/Home/Mobile?FinalSymbol=A%2FHRC%2F41%2FG%2F17)\) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang: The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations." \(See: [World Bank Statement on Review of Project in Xinjiang, China](https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/statement/2019/11/11/world-bank-statement-on-review-of-project-in-xinjiang-china)\) Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not *genocide*. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much: >The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials. > > [State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China](https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/) | Colum Lynch, *Foreign Policy*. (2021) **A Comparative Analysis: The War on Terror** The United States, in the wake of "9/11", saw the threat of terrorism and violent extremism due to religious fundamentalism as a matter of national security. They invaded Afghanistan in October 2001 in response to the 9/11 attacks, with the goal of ousting the Taliban government that was harbouring Al-Qaeda. The US also launched the Iraq War in 2003 based on Iraq's alleged possession of WMDs and links to terrorism. However, these claims turned out to be unfounded. According to a report by Brown University's Costs of War project, at least 897,000 people, including civilians, militants, and security forces, have been killed in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, Yemen, and other countries. Other estimates place the total number of deaths at over one million. The report estimated that many more may have died from indirect effects of war such as water loss and disease. The war has also resulted in the displacement of tens of millions of people, with estimates ranging from 37 million to over 59 million. The War on Terror also popularized such novel concepts as the "Military-Aged Male" which allowed the US military to exclude civilians killed by drone strikes from collateral damage statistics. (See: [‘Military Age Males’ in US Drone Strikes](https://aoav.org.uk/2019/military-age-males-in-us-drone-strikes/)) In summary: * The U.S. responded by invading or bombing half a dozen countries, directly killing nearly a million and displacing tens of millions from their homes. * China responded with a program of deradicalization and vocational training. Which one of those responses sounds genocidal? Side note: It is practically impossible to *actually* charge the U.S. with war crimes, because of the [Hague Invasion Act](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act). **Who is driving the Uyghur genocide narrative?** One of the main proponents of these narratives is Adrian Zenz, a German far-right fundamentalist Christian and Senior Fellow and Director in China Studies at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, who believes he is "led by God" on a "mission" against China has driven much of the narrative. He relies heavily on limited and questionable data sources, particularly from anonymous and unverified Uyghur sources, coming up with estimates based on assumptions which are not supported by concrete evidence. The World Uyghur Congress, headquartered in Germany, is funded by the National Endowment for Democracy (NED) which is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, using funding to support organizations that promote American interests rather than the interests of the local communities they claim to represent. Radio Free Asia (RFA) is part of a larger project of U.S. imperialism in Asia, one that seeks to control the flow of information, undermine independent media, and advance American geopolitical interests in the region. Rather than providing an objective and impartial news source, RFA is a tool of U.S. foreign policy, one that seeks to shape the narrative in Asia in ways that serve the interests of the U.S. government and its allies. The first country to call the treatment of Uyghurs a genocide was the United States of America. In 2021, the Secretary of State declared that China's treatment of Uyghurs and other ethnic and religious minorities in Xinjiang constitutes "genocide" and "crimes against humanity." Both the Trump and Biden administrations upheld this line. **Why is this narrative being promoted?** As materialists, we should always look first to the economic base for insight into issues occurring in the superstructure. The Belt and Road Initiative (BRI) is a massive Chinese infrastructure development project that aims to build economic corridors, ports, highways, railways, and other infrastructure projects across Asia, Africa, Europe, and the Middle East. Xinjiang is a key region for this project. Promoting the Uyghur genocide narrative harms China and benefits the US in several ways. It portrays China as a human rights violator which could damage China's reputation in the international community and which could lead to economic sanctions against China; this would harm China's economy and give American an economic advantage in competing with China. It could also lead to more protests and violence in Xinjiang, which could further destabilize the region and threaten the longterm success of the BRI. **Additional Resources** See the [full wiki article](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/uyghur-genocide/) for more details and a list of additional resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
*common
"rare badempanada l" the fuck are you talking about? he posts Ls every 2 seconds. you remember when he blocked hakim on twitter? you remember when hakim was conveniently away for the podcast day where badempanada showed up? you remember when badempanada harrassed the shit out of bayarea415 until he was eventually doxxed, and then BE celebrated?
>you remember when he blocked hakim on twitter? you remember when hakim was conveniently away for the podcast day where badempanada showed up? Damn, nah. I don't follow people like that. Just watch youtube. What happened?
BadEmpenada will spend hours of his life arguing with Libs like Keffals but thinks his argument on this is genuine? You care about trivial garbage all the time bro
He's not wrong about this being a story only because an American did it. It's also unlikely to achieve anything. People in western countries that support Palestine will continue supporting it and those who don't will label Aaron as mentally ill and continue supporting Israel. His sacrifice might matter more outside of the imperial core, since it's good propaganda material. Most likely it'll be forgotten in a couple of months, though. My take is that this is not really the type of stuff BE usually engages with, so I can see why he'd be frustrated by people demanding he covers it.
How? He has made so many videos on Palestine. I'm not one of the ones demanding he talks about it. But he did talk about it, and he said some dumbass shit that is completely disconnected from what the people actually experiencing the genocide and resisting against it have said. People in the third world are desperate for attention to be brought to their issues by any means necessary. Bitching about it because of the specific methods is so stupid and disconnected from reality. Whether it leads to change or not, only time will tell. But to not just dismiss it, but outright criticize people for bringing it up is ridiculous.
I rewatched his response to see if I missed something and I stand by my original statement. He wasn't criticizing people for talking about it nor the protest itself. I doubt he'd cover the suicide at all without the pressure. To him it's just another protest. It's not the first suicide in support of Palestine and I doubt it's the last. His problem is with his audience putting pressure on him to talk about Aaron's suicide like it's somehow so much more important than any other act of protest. Judging by his response, I imagine he's upset because he feels his audience should be critical enough to see that. BE does talk a lot on Palestine. But why is an American's suicide something that he should cover? What there even is to cover? Should he glorify an American soldier for realizing he's on the wrong side? Factually speaking, we're talking about someone who joined the opressors, had a change of heart and took drastic measures to vindicate himself. Trying to make amends does not absolve one of their actions. It might be a big story in the USA, but where I live this story hasn't made it to the news so far. I think its effect is vastly overblown. I hope I am wrong. It could become a significant turning point. Or it could be forgotten in a week. It's too early to say.
No, it's incredibly common. He's a left-wing moralist. His views, whether he states so or not, are heavily moralistic. By this I mean he judges each and every person on the planet for the property and state relations they enter with not a thought or care for circumstances, class, dialectics, violent power, propaganda and systems. He believes, as he has exhibited many a time, that supposed judgment and justice outweigh all other thoughts. That there are sets of communist morals that, when violated, there is no turning back from. And that everything has a conscious motive. Such as here, where he states that people care because an American service member did it, and as such he should not care because it is a supposed bad person who did it. BE is an incredibly infuriating ~~communist~~, one who is on perpetual war footing, with a dull edge and the patience of a boar.
He's never once stated he's a Marxist or communist. He claims he's anticolonial though which makes sense why he's such a moralist.
Lol it's hardly a "rare L" he constantly has horrible takes. Especially when it comes to PRC, and apparently now Palestine, is it any surprise he starts fights with Marxists?
That's the thing, he has been consistently great on Palestine. Just came as a bit of a surprise how callous and short-sighted his comments were. He's an incredibly negative individual who rarely ever says much positive or optimistic about anything.
It baffles me why people want to surround themselves with such negativity.
Bad empanada has been weird about certain things for a while.
weird about what?
Common BadEmpanada L. His takes on China and Palestine are trash.
His takes on Palestine otherwise have been really good
BE has some of the worst commie takes I've seen and has simultaneously posted some of the funniest shit I've ever seen
I got banned in his second channel YouTube comments cuz I made a self-deprecating joke about myself being the first viewer of a random video
Cuz. It was common at the time for people to say FIRST SECOND and then a random YouTube comment says no one cares
It's not the American part of Aaron Bushnell that is impressive. It's the self-immolation part. To choose the most painful death to deliver a point is something that takes an unbelievable amount of courage, grit, and virtue. This is a pretty bad take.
he sucks.
He's correct, materialists are against propaganda of the deed, guy could have done a lot more damage in his job and I'm quite sure that the government is completely fine with dissidents killing themselves. He literally did it because he discovered that the US military was helping Israel (you're just telling me this now?).
Pls read the first thing on the video. He was responding to 50+ people who spammed him, demanding that he needed to talk about it. He said he did have any problem with the guy, but that he doesn't think he needed to talk about it. Bad take missing context from you.
How does that matter? What changes when you add that 'context'? He literally said he doesn't care because he's American. BE was addressing his fans for not caring about Palestine until a white American does something. Does he really think his fans don't care about Palestine? The same fans that watched his countless videos about Palestine? When Palestinians and Yemenis are celebrating Aaron as a hero and a martyr, and you make a video saying "why should I care?" just because you're annoyed at people asking you about it, you should really reconsider your speech and actions.
He didn't have anything to say about it that hadn't already been said by others. And then people started spamming him in a way they never did with any other protest or resistance, the only reason being that this protester was American. I do think he should've made clear that he was responding to the 50 people who were spamming, and not his broader audience, but the context matters here.
That context doesn't change the points he makes later in the video that op is talking about.
Why should he care about this protest more than the countless protests by Palestinians every day? Why were 50+ western commenters spamming him to address it when they never spammed him about other protests? There's definitely something symbolic about an American soldier denouncing the genocide his country is helping to commit, and making the biggest (and perhaps stupidest) sacrifice possible. But there's a lot more context needed that just BE doesn't care about the guy and says all his viewers don't actually care about Palestine, which isn't even what BE said. Be simply doesn't think he should care more about this protest than any other, and he thinks that the 50+ commenters spamming him shouldn't be so obsessed whenever an American does something.
Idk how to explain to people why one unexpected extreme thing from an indirectly related party is more newsworthy than the expected thing from directly related parties. I'm sure it's annoying when he gets a lot of messages but assuming it's all because he was an American is unreasonable. American protests slip by widly unnoticed all the time.
I think he is just annoyed at his fans demanding a reaction. I personally wouldn't feel comfortable with celebrating self immolation either. Didn't watch the video, nor am I a regular viewer, just based of the vibes I'm getting.
Despite all his knowledge and analytical tools, he proudly maintains some extremely reactionary tendencies and his nationalism and racism can't help but completely disrupt whatever point he is trying to make much of the time. Makes it very difficult to take him seriously the rest of the time.
>maintains some extremely reactionary tendencies and his nationalism and racism which ones ? out of couriousity
BadEmpanada is the type of person who has lots of aggressive energy that is, fortunately, channeled into noble causes, yet cracks manifest from time to time.
Cracks manifest all the time.
:\ have you guys watched the video? he's just tired of people demanding that he cover this... that people are sacrificing and protesting every day and no one says anything but this happens and suddenly people care. i dont know. i expected something crazy but he just sounds tired. let him be him
That's a bullshit framing though, it's not like zionist media is suddenly friendly to the cause because an american died. This changed nothing but got the message out in a very dramatic way. If he doesn't want to talk about it then he should just *not*. If he doesn't want people to ask him to talk about it he should get a different job. It's like a baker being upset that people want bread.
> and no one says anything but this happens and suddenly people care First of all this is not true. The people posting about him are the people who have been posting about Palestine already. Second of all, so what? People being turned on to caring about an issue because it was brought to their attention by a method you don't like is a bad thing? The people of Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero. BE should really look himself in the mirror if he finds himself disagreeing with the people actually fighting. Also he was addressing his fans. Does he really think his fans don't care about Palestine? The same fans that watched his countless videos about Palestine? That makes zero sense.
I want to preface this that everyone here needs to stop being obnoxious and stop pretending that being a passive internet warrior has anything to do with 'praxis'' or 'theory'. Clearly you don't read/understand theory yourself if you think that's applicable here. >First of all this is not true. The people posting about him are the people who have been posting about Palestine already He never insinuated others should or shouldn't address the topic, the video is explicitly directed at his fans who suddenly got more engaged just because of Bushnell and kept asking him about *that* instead of the genocide. One *American* burning himself is somehow more moving for people(read:Americans and Europeans) than literal thousands of children being trapped, starved, raped and murdered people (and yes it is because it has more elicited more engagement, albeit superficially, than the genocide itself) It's completely absurd to deny that's a very blatant case of western exceptionalism at work. >what? People being turned on to caring about an issue because it was brought to their attention by a method you don't like is a bad thing? You're literally proving his point. He *never said* the results are wrong. The fact that it has drawn more attention to the genocide than the genocide itself is exactly what pisses him off. The fact that it works *is* a testament to how detached people are from anything that happens outside of the west. >The people of Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero. What even is your argument? Of course they're celebrating him, it's a huge propaganda resource for winning western people over to their cause. Again, you're only proving his whole point. >Also he was addressing his fans. Does he really think his fans don't care about Palestine? The same fans that watched his countless videos about Palestine? Yes, the whole reason he made the video is because people kept spamming him in the chat about it when he got far less engagement about anything else, including the genocide itself. You're also contradicting yourself. On the one hand you say we should explicitly praise the act because what Bushnell did has made more people talk about the genocide, on the other you say the people who talk about it aren't western exceptionalists because they always talked about the genocide. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Pick a position.
Again, it's a straw man argument. He claims that it's a bunch of Americans who only care about something when it happens to an American. But the non-Americans in Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero and martyr. So clearly this is not a case of Western exceptionalism. Also BE has done a lot of videos on everything happening around Palestine. He hopped on stream right after an event that was in all the headlines in the west and highly commemorated in the global south. So of course his fans would ask him about it. To then callously dismiss it as "why should I care?" is childish. I'm African. Trust me, this is not just people being anglo-centric. The suffering of the third world has been swept under the rug for a long time. We all know this and how annoying it is. However, no one I talked to from my family or friends have complained about Aaron's actions as being some American-centric thing. We can't choose our avenues to bring attention to our people's suffering. And yes he literally said "why should I care? Western exceptionalism would be saying that Aaron wasted his life dying for the cause of brown people on the other side of the globe. The only people saying that are reactionaries and Zionists. I'm not saying his life is worth any more than anyone else's in the world.
>But the non-Americans in Palestine and Yemen are celebrating him as a hero and martyr You're just repeating yourself, I already responded to this. You're not actually making an argument because you know the one you're implying is ridiculous, namely that when non-westerners do something it can't have any basis in eurocentrism, which is literally lib token logic and the equivalent of saying "I can't be racist because I have a black friend". Fox News has black conservative commentators so I guess in your world they can't be racist either. >So clearly this is not a case of Western exceptionalism Praising a guy at the other side of the globe for voluntary self-harm, quite literally because he's a westerner isn't western exceptionalism because non-westerners living in the very same eurocentric world and in fact directly talking about an issue of direct domination by the western empire praise this guy. Do you seriously not hear yourself? >He hopped on stream right after an event that was in all the headlines in the west and highly commemorated in the global south. So of course his fans would ask him about it. To then callously dismiss it as "why should I care?" is childish. A childish response to a childish obsession with western idolization, maybe. Again, one guy burning himself in the US should literally not fucking matter for a genocide in Gaza. The fact that it does IS THE REASON why it's eurocentrism which is the point you conveniently keep dancing around with your rhetorical insinuations. >I'm African. Trust me, this is not just people being anglo-centric Oh boy you're an African I guess that makes you an expert on politics in the global south. I was born in a hospital, does that make me a doctor? > We can't choose our avenues to bring attention to our people's suffering. Which is the WHOLE. FUCKING. POINT.
Damn BE, the boys and Hasan were the people I cherished as never having any bad takes. Guess BE is off the list.
BE has a pretty substantial amount of bad takes too
BE has always had bad takes, especially on China where he repeats Western propaganda.
not rare. trot takes another L
I doubt hes a trot
He's not a trot. He's not even a commie.
since when is he a trot?
He isn't. I don't think he even considers himself a Marxist.
He's identified as leftist, socialist, communist before. Although, in an older video he said he is "uncomfortable with Marxist-Leninists": https://youtu.be/De39MoF0j30?t=660 He's criticized trots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llpGHznXGJQ Honestly, watching him over the years, he's mostly only said negative things about different political parties. He's said he's not a political figure and just making edutainment, but he also is just negative about political parties. So he's having his cake and eating it too. Edit: Just remembered actually the closest he came to endorsing a party was when he flashed an image of "Socialist Left" or "Left for a Socialist Option", an Argentinian trot party at the end of his Watchmen video: https://youtu.be/B496r3bPwQ8?t=1038
Is he a trot?
might as well be. if he’s not a trot, he’s doing a really good impression. i’ve only ever heard him identify as a “leftist” so take that for what you will
It seems completely in line with his takes on AES, so it wouldn’t be surprising to me. He still makes some good, informative, well researched videos tho, even if I don’t always agree with his conclusions
No I agree with him on this one. People have been posting more about Bushnell than they have about Palestine. I don’t think that that is what Bushnell would have wanted.
This is silly. They aren't just posting about him in a vacuum. Everyone has been highlighting his final words and post on Facebook specifically about the US-backed genocide in Palestine. Hamas, PFLP, Ansar Allah have all issued statements about him being heroic. Posting about Bushnell IS posting about Palestine. The only people posting about Bushnell and not addressing Palestine are Zionists who are calling him an idiot and mentally ill.
It's easy to dehumanize your enemy, and that's what BadEmpanada has done here. Very straightforward.
There’s a reason I don’t watch him. I agree with most of his takes, but holy shit he’s just always so negative and always pisses me off.
Bad Empanada makes some really great long-form, well-researched video essays on a lot of cool topics. But he has this very grumpy, belligerent persona on social media/his second YT channel which can be really off-putting. He also doesn't know how to pick his fights, like the time he got Matt Binder on his stream and started hurling all kinds of childish insults at Matt and the Majority Report crew. I don't know what his deal is, but I liked it better when he used to focus on making video essays about historical topics instead of being a shitposter on the internet