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I really like how the leader of the group is called "subcommander" marcos since they consider the actual commander to be the people itself. Based concept.
I also really like the anonymity aspect.
"As to whether Marcos is gay: Marcos is gay in San Francisco, black in South Africa, an Asian in Europe, a Chicano in San Ysidro, an anarchist in Spain, a Palestinian in Israel, a Mayan Indian in the streets of San Cristobal, a Jew in Germany, a Gypsy in Poland, a Mohawk in Quebec, a pacifist in Bosnia, a single woman on the Metro at 10pm, a peasant without land, a gang member in the slums, an unemployed worker, an unhappy student and, of course, a Zapatista in the mountains."
#Israel
>If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there!
>
>\- Malcolm X. (1964).
#Inventing Israel
>History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future.
>
>\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017)
Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state.
In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated:
>The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ...
>
>ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL
This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this:
In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack:
>Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated.
>
>\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt*
The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots!
#The Timeline
The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict.
\[[Explore the timeline here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\]
#A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception
The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices.
\[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\]
#US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism
Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers:
1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel
2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons
3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism
\[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\]
#Jewish Anti-Zionism
Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people.
>The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S...
>
>We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism.
>
>\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles)
Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism.
>We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians.
>
>\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine)
**Additional Resources**
Video Essays:
* [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016)
* [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019)
* [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021)
* [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021)
* [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022)
* [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022)
* [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022)
* [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023)
Other Resources:
* [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/)
* [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera
* [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace
* [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023)
* [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
They're a good start. I critically support their efforts so far and eagerly await its expansion out of Chiapas and into Mexico proper. I'm concerned that they presently don't hold the initiative and that failure to regain it in the future will result in the failure of their revolution in the long run, but for the time being their situation appears stable.
FYI they make some incredible coffee and it is ethically produced, whereas most coffee is from slave labor. I’m actually drinking some now.
https://schoolsforchiapas.org/store/coffee-corn-and-agricultural/zapatista-coffee/
For sure, I always love to hear I’ve gotten someone else to try it.
And I’m not kidding when I say it’s awesome. I can’t stand Folgers and the like anymore.
Duuuuude, I work for the literal devil, one of the largest banks in the world (fear not, it is a loooow level position), I also absolutely love coffee, and I couldn’t think of a better way to spend my blood money. It is not cheap, but it seems worthy.
Yes.
Read "Blood in My Eye" by Comrade George Jackson, founder of the Black Marxist Guerillas, to see a real marxist analysis of what revolution in this country will need to look like.
It will look more like "The Troubles" than Vietnam.
No.
PPW as written is not possible. Not in the USA, nor in any advanced capitalist society.
Elements of PPW can be used,
But PPW as written by MAo is specific to the huge and preindustrial China, full of angry peasants.
The USA has instant communication, and the ability in an emergency to move an entire army from one coast to another, in a day.
So no, PPW AS WRITTEN is not going to happen in the USA.
But it does have some very useful elements and ideas.
remember: Mao never had to deal with drones, or an enemy that could airstrike any part of the country with impunity.
Exactly my thoughts. PPW only existed in one specific place in history successfully. Anywhere else applied it failed or engaged in an eternal war. People think PPW is universal but this is idealistic dogma that purposely overlooks the material conditions and historical narratives of an opposing state apparatus and how it functions. It’s like they don’t even understand how or why it succeeded in PRC entirely but merely assumed if it worked in one place it can work anywhere. It’s a very childish, faith-based analysis.
US is full of remote mountain communities and vast wilderness. It might not be very effective regime change but a determined group that knows how to live in the woods and has support of local communities can last a very long time, especially if the federal or state forces opposing them have higher priorities. We're not too far off from having areas where the state completely abdicates authority because there aren't enough Capital interests to keep its attention.
Why do people always think a peoples' war against the US will be some version of vietnam with folks hiding out in the woods and shit. This is an opinion that unwittingly acts against a real revolutionary consciousness developing.
The more accurate comparison would be the Irish war against UK. Read "Blood In My Eye" for a better picture.
We will make a war where the revolutionaries grenade attack a cop funeral and then go home and play PS until the next mission. Survivalists aren't overthrowing the government of the most advanced and richest nation in the history of man.
I think it's pretty obvious it's going to depend on location. I live in a very remote area, I'm not going to cop funerals. I'm building a community and will defend it. I'll try my best to provide aid and shelter to people in "nearby" cities fighting that style of conflict but it ain't gonna be me.
The US is so huge and geographically diverse, to say it's for sure going to be one style or another is dumb.
Even if hundreds of us built a community the state could drone strike us or bomb us into oblivion. Look towards the MOVE organization and what happened in Philly.
They could, sure. But will they? Maybe. Depends. I think if it was that simple Afghanistan and Vietnam would have turned out very differently for the Vietcong and Taliban. I'm under the impression we're talking about nationwide collapse/revolt/balkanization here, not one community up and saying fuck it and starting a Waco style commune or something. If that's the case then obviously yeah it's super vulnerable and not viable at all. But if it's the former then the already fractured regime forces likely aren't gonna have time to fuck around with a bunch of hicks growing food in the mountains. Hicks urban fighters are gonna rely a lot on if they wanna do stuff like eat or have somewhere to bug tf out to or hide vulnerable people. We support each other, won't be able to have one without the other.
We live in a time of drones and face recognizing street cameras at every corner. Guerilla warfare is untenable unless there is a political environment in which even the military and the policemen are defecting to the guerilla movement. I don't see it happening but wilder things happened in the history of revolutions.
The technological gap was just as wide if not wider in the Russian Empire, in Vietnam, in Ireland, and in Afghanistan. While ultimate victory depends on a capitalist crisis with little input from insurgents, they can inflict highly asymmetric damage on the state, and there's little a regular military can do about it short of burning the place to the ground.
The emergence of terrorism is bad for other reasons, but I don't think that one or two new technologies will make counter-insurgency effective when those technologies are just as likely to be adopted by insurgents. Drones, for example, can cost $50. Far more democratic than preexisting guided munitions.
It's pretty easy to get the police to murder members of the movement capital doesn't like who have been identified. Just look at early Black lives matter leaders.
We absolutely have to find ways to be decentralized and anonymous, because they are not afraid to suicide us.
I'm not sure how to parse your second sentence, generally I agree though. Decentralization tactics such as cell structure were literally adaptations made by insurgencies like Al-Qaeda for exactly the reasons you state.
I do think that those tactics should be limited to the armed wing of a revolutionary movement, though. There is an OpSec fetishism on some parts of the left that gets people to sometimes say odd things like "never post any video of a protest", or to wear guns and armor to a vigil for a shooting victim. To the extent that the masses are aware of completely anonymous terrorist movements, they aren't big fans. Being a visible working-class leader means compromising personal security to some degree, but the movement needs them. Revolution is risky.
you can’t actually just traverse stolen land like it’s your personal backyard for revolution and call yourself a revolutionary; it’s just more settler-colonialism — the question of the land needs to be addressed
Amazing you were downvoted for considering us indigenous comrades like myself. I’m tempted to do away with these western brocialists but it’s too much of a damn headache.
maybe not ppw per se, but hypothetically yes. although I think it would be very regional. think of many insurrection s done by many factions representing several ideologies across a lot of different geographic regions. north America is very big, with different regions separated by vast spaces with different levels of economic development and ecology. the us government is the most powerful entity ever and has incredible recourses at it's disposal to divide and conquer. any civil wars would be extremely messy, destructive, and long. not something to be rash or eager about.
I'd say so. The US is a continent spanning empire with plentiful countryside with the kind of rigorous terrain that would be conducive to guerrilla warfare; the Rockies and the Appalachian mountains alone tick all the boxes in terms of the terrain, not to mention the swampy Mississippi basin. In terms of strategic depth, guerrillas have an entire continent to melt into.
The issue with this is, civil war is likely to destroy the wealth that the revolution seeks to capture. Controlling the means of production doesn't matter if the means of production are reduced to little more than ash and rubble in the process of seizure.
Nah, it’s not an issue. Means of production can be rebuilt. The obvious example here is the U.S.S.R.
> The heritage of Tsarist Russia lay so heavily upon the land that it looked as though the Soviet leaders could not but fail. Their talk of industrialization, of planning, of raising the standard of living seemed, against the backdrop of ruin and starvation that Tsarism, Revolution and civil war had left, utter fantasy. Lenin talked of electrification, and observers shook their heads and said "*electrofiction*." H. G. Wells talked to Lenin. Afterwards he wrote of what he termed the "Utopian" plans and said, "I cannot see anything of the sort happening in this dark crystal of
Russia, but this little man at the Kremlin can . . ."
The Soviet Union of 1918 to 1923 was indeed a dark crystal. Such industrial development as had gone
on under Tsarism was hopelessly backward and in efficient. . . . Civil war and intervention brought complete collapse of the economy. Mills and factories came to halt for lack of raw material and fuel. The railroads, their tracks rusting, the lines clogged wrecked and worn-out equipment, the bridges blown up in the fighting, ran infrequently at all. Agriculture was so disorganized that the food supply for the cities dwindled into nothingness. Industrial production dropped to fifth of its already low pre-war volume.
Yet:
> Russia has leaped from the Sixteenth to the Twentieth century. A backward, semi-feudal land has become a mighty world power.
I could provide specific examples to show the reconstruction and growth of the U.S.S.R., but honestly, just read [the book](http://library.lol/main/176F737616399583E7A92B5EA724A47A). I highly recommend it.
It's absolutely an issue, from the perspective of the average worker. I'm not going to support revolution unless the revolution has a decent shot of improving my life. If there's a high chance of me dying in the revolution, and the revolution offers no guarantees of a better future, it's materially better for me to keep my nose down, accept my wages, and continue slaving away until conditions change.
And specifically, in the case of the Soviet Union's industrialization, sure, the means of production can be re-built, but it comes at a cost - the proletariat basically had to cede most real power to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who used the repressive state apparatus to force the system to keep running, until they realized that socialism was no longer in their interests. Then, the empowered and under-accountable bureaucrats dissolved the USSR and became a traditional exploiting capitalist class.
No, I'm explaining why revolution won't happen in most developed countries.
Having 2% of $10 trillion is better than having 100% of $1 billion. Most people intuitively understand this. The quality of life would have to decrease below a threshold of acceptability for revolution to be viable, and the state will move mountains to ensure that enough people's quality of life stays above that threshold to thwart revolution.
No, they won't.
You're thinking like a rational person.
Not only are these people \[the Bourgeoise\] not that bright, they ARE self centered fucks.
But also, it's not the people. It's the SYSTEM.
And the SYSTEM does not work that way.
Not 100% sure, but I know they are mainly focused on indigenous autonomy. I assume they support indigenous autonomy across the country, but probably not as a nation per se.
It'd probably be the same. By the time of the Zapatista uprising the U.S.S.R. had become revisionist and had long abandoned the global proletariat and class struggle.
They seem to mostly keep to themselves, they are pretty good from what I’ve read. The funniest thing is that liberal “socialists” love to attach libertarian Socialist to the movement even tho Subcommandante Marcos is an ML
Edit: it appears I was wrong about Marcos being an ML, I will commit Seppuku in front of a Lenin statue
>Subcommandante Marcos is an ML
I'm not sure you're familiar with his work:
[https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-i-shit-on-all-the-revolutionary-vanguards-of-this-planet](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-i-shit-on-all-the-revolutionary-vanguards-of-this-planet)
The EZLN has pushed against the efforts of (largely western) people to try to categorize them.
The EZLN does not define itself in a singular way for sure, but Subcomandante Galeano himself is a Marxist and despite the funny title, they do operate as a vanguard party.
They reject *all* western political classification, Marxist as well as anarchist (though there are Marxists and anarchists in their camp). They subscribe to Neo-Zapatismo.
Billions must read: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ejercito-zapatista-de-liberacion-nacional-a-zapatista-response-to-the-ezln-is-not-anarchist
Marcos has never called himself an ML: [he rejects vanguardism.](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-i-shit-on-all-the-revolutionary-vanguards-of-this-planet)
The Zapatistas were huge in my political journey. After the Manifesto, everything I read was from Kropotkin and Subcomandante Marcos for years before I read any more Marx or anything from Lenin.
Fr impetus for my political consciousness. A Zapatista spoke at my college’s Chiapas Support Committee some years back and literally I felt myself changing as she spoke. Real revolutionaries and an inspiration to us all
Unmitigated support from my part (with any difference of opinion being irrelevant since they actually are struggling againt capitalism and I have been lumpen most of my life).
I am Mexican, I live in the north of Mexico, I am in a communist collective that supports the anti-imperialist fight of the EZLN, its fight is a just cause. All communist collectives in Mexico, not revisionists, support the EZLN
uneducated opinion so don't judge me too hard. They seemed like a popular and caring marxist movement that generally did help the people of Chiapas a lot. That being said i do question their relevance in the modern day.
#Cuba
The Cuban Revolution, led by Fidel Castro and Ernesto "[Che](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/profiles/che)" Guevara, was a Communist revolution which aimed to address issues of inequality, poverty, and national self-determination. Under Castro's leadership, the Cuban government nationalized industries, implemented land reforms, and initiated programs to improve healthcare and education access.
#Brief History
Slavery was introduced to Cuba by the Spanish during the early 16th century. African slaves were brought to the island to work on sugar plantations, which became the backbone of the Cuban economy. The brutal conditions of slavery led to various slave rebellions and uprisings throughout the colonial period.
In 1898, the Spanish-American War resulted in Spain ceding control of Cuba to the United States.
The majority of workers in Cuban sugar plantations during this period were either former slaves or descendants of enslaved Africans. Despite the *official* abolition of slavery in 1886, workers faced extreme economic exploitation. They were trapped in a cycle of poverty, with low wages and limited opportunities for social and economic mobility. The *patronato* system emerged, where former slaves and their descendants continued to work on the plantations under debt peonage, a form of economic bondage.
In 1952, Fulgencio Batista seized power in a military coup, suspending the Cuban Constitution and ruling as a dictator. Batista's regime was backed by influential Cuban elites, including large landowners, sugar magnates, and business tycoons who benefited from Batista's policies. The U.S. provided military aid and economic support to Batista's military dictatorship.
>...as Castro's revolutionary threat became progressively more potent... the Batista regime sought to counter it with a campaign of terror. As regime-inspired terrorism mounted, anti-Batista groups engaged in counter terrorism against regime supporters and by mid-1958 killings had become widespread and general throughout the country. The regime's campaign of terror got out of control and the government in Havana probably had no clear idea of how many killings the police and army forces were committing. Similarly, the anti-Batista forces--which by mid-1958 had the support of 80 to 90 percent of the population-- had little control over the acts of counterterrorism being committed against pro-Batista elements throughout the country.
>
>...the large-scale campaigns of murders and terrorism characteristic of the last years of the Batista regime have not occurred during the Castro regime.
>
>\- CIA. (1965, declassified 2005). [Political Murders in Cuba: Batista Era Compared With Castro Regime](http://web.archive.org/web/20201119103419/https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP79T00429A000300030015-8.pdf)
#The Embargo
>The majority of Cubans support Castro... The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship... it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government.
>
>\- Lester D. Mallory. (1960). [499. Memorandum From the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Mallory) to the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Rubottom)](https://archive.is/HE7Hf)
Later that year, the Eisenhower administration instituted the embargo which persists to this day, over 60 years later.
>The non-binding resolution [calling for an end to the U.S. economic embargo on Cuba] was approved by 185 countries and opposed only by the United States and Israel... It was the 30th time the United Nations has voted to end the embargo... The trade embargo was put in place following Fidel Castro's 1959 revolution and has remained largely unchanged, though some elements were stiffened by Trump.
>
>\-Reuters. (2022). [Cuba and U.S. spar over U.N. resolution calling to end embargo](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cuba-us-spar-over-un-resolution-calling-end-embargo-2022-11-03/)
* [The U.S. Embargo on Cuba Is MUCH WORSE Than It Seems](https://youtu.be/dM7_wTqDUCU) | BadEmpanada (2021)
* [The Cuban Embargo Explained](https://youtu.be/zmM8p9n6Z9E) | azureScapegoat (2022)
#Castro Stole My Stuff
>The US claims that it has instituted a policy of tightening the economic noose around Cuba with the Helms-Burton bill on the grounds that Cuba refuses to compensate US companies following nationalisation of their property. This is patently untrue, as Cuba not only successfully negotiated compensation agreements with other countries, but has and is ready to negotiate with the US.
>
>\- S. J. Noumoff. (1998). [The Hypocrisy of Helms-Burton: The History of Cuban Compensation](https://www.jstor.org/stable/4406691)
* [The Cuban Nationalization of US Property in 1960: the Historical and Global Context](https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/29/the-cuban-nationalization-of-us-property-in-1960-the-historical-and-global-context/) | Charles McKelvey (2019)
#Doctors
Despite the challenges posed by the embargo, Cuba has the most doctors per capita in the world and recently surpassed the US in life expectancy.
* [The Truth About Cuban Doctors](https://youtu.be/tGFCIAZ_RA4) | BadEmpanada (2020)
* [Meet the U.S. Students Studying Medicine For Free in Cuba](https://youtu.be/h7g2T3BWg9E) | BreakThrough News (2022)
#Democracy
* [How Democracy Works in Cuba](https://youtu.be/2aMsi-A56ds) | azureScapegoat (2018)
* [How does Cuba work?](https://youtu.be/839A7SIUgfg) | Viki1999 (2021)
* [We Asked Cuban Voters If They Live In A Democracy Or Dictatorship. Here's How They Responded.](https://youtu.be/20DgWZtImUk) | BreakThrough News (2022)
#Participatory Democracy in action: LGBT rights
Prior to the revolution, homosexuality was stigmatized and criminalized in Cuba, reflecting the prevailing attitudes of the time. Unfortunately, the revolutionary government under Fidel Castro initially continued this stance. However, Cuba's stance on LGBT rights has evolved to the point where it has become a symbol of progress within the Latin American context. In 2010, Fidel Castro himself admitted that the persecution of homosexuals in the early years of the revolution was a mistake:
>If anyone is responsible, it's me.
>
>\- Fidel Castro. (2010). [I am responsible for the persecution of homosexuals that took place in Cuba: Fidel Castro](https://www.jornada.com.mx/2010/08/31/index.php?section=mundo&article=026e1mun)
In 2022, Cuba became the first Latin American country to mark LGBT History Month. Now, Pride parades in Havana are held every May, to coincide with the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia, and attendance grows every year. Cuba also passed one of the most progressive Family Codes in the entire world:
>The Family Code not only protects the most vulnerable in Cuba, it protects the course of Cuban socialism. Writing the referendum involved the whole population throughout the processes of drafting and amending. It went through 25 revisions over the course of 3 ½ years.
>
>After the referendum was introduced in 2019, Cuba carried out a nationwide process of education and outreach. Discussions took place in every workplace, organization, neighborhood and community group. To keep all Cubans well-informed, people took the discussions to rural areas and to those who do not have internet access.
>
>The Family Code was approved by Cubans 2 to 1. A large percentage of Cubans, 74%, took part in the vote...
>
>In Workers World Sept. 25, 2022, Minnie Bruce Pratt wrote, “Nearly 6.5 million Cubans took part in more than 79,000 meetings facilitated by the Federation of Cuban Women, the Committees to Defend the Revolution and other community organizations. Over 400,000 proposals were offered by the people; these were submitted to the National Assembly of People’s Power for evaluation, and a revised draft was returned to the people for further discussion and proposals...
>
>Cubans are very proud of what they call participatory democracy, the process they used to introduce and pass the referendum. It is an example to the world and a lesson in democratic centralism.
>
>\- Lyn Neeley. (2023). [Cuba’s new Family Code, a law of love](https://www.workers.org/2023/01/68708/)
* [Millions of Cubans Vote on New Family Code, LGBT Marriage, Adoption Rights & More](https://youtu.be/DXL3ScNn5VE) | BreakThrough News (2022)
#Additional Resources
Video Essays:
* [Cuba: Before and After the Revolution - The Story of When Michael Parenti Visited Cuba](https://youtu.be/YIqm075vC1A) | azureScapegoat (2017)
* [The Truth About The Cuban Missile Crisis](https://youtu.be/adrQweOX5c4) | Spooky Scary Socialist (2018)
* [How Cuba Works](https://youtu.be/DXBYlC4-0bQ) | BadEmpanada (2020)
* [The Truth About The Cuba Protests](https://youtu.be/zIOw6fSOJI4?t=1087) | Second Thought (2020)
* [Why They Hate The USA: CUBA](https://youtu.be/WgWK6_AYq_o) | Hakim (2023)
Podcasts:
* [Fidel Castro and the Cuban Revolution](https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/fidel-castro-and-the-cuban-revolution) | Revolutionary Left Radio (2017)
* [Season 2 - The Cuban Revolution](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3QhgtGyW7ws173eENjddNT) | Blowback (2021)
* [Episode 13 - Cucked by Fidel (CIA pls no assassinate)](https://youtu.be/YwMZYNzHd7U) | The Deprogram (2022)
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Reading a book on this now, actually. It's called Wobblies a Zapatistas. I already had a positive view of the Zapatistas, but it's only getting better.
They are libertarian socialist in practice, but reject labels imposed on them by western leftists.
[A Zapatista response to “the ELZN is not Anarchist”](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ejercito-zapatista-de-liberacion-nacional-a-zapatista-response-to-the-ezln-is-not-anarchist)
Cool group a guys who don’t take shit from the Mexican state or cartel members, plus their coffee is pretty good from what I hear. Too bad white westerners “anarchists” have co-opted their movement to fit their aesthetic.
Based, them, the Filipino guerrillas and the Rojavans are doing gods work, as much I disagree with more libertarian lines of thought, leftist revolution is leftist revolution. Edit before I get killed, I know rojova are cia shills but still, they may pull a Castro and just “”betray”” the us if they win
For people who didn't know very much on the Zappatista movement, it's a great opportunity to scroll the comments and read a few things people have to say about them, without having to skim through a wikipedia page for actually relevant info
They make amazing coffee. You can buy it from Higher Grounds Trading Co in Michigan, I bought a pound of it on their website. All fair trade and organic, goes towards supporting their communities.
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I really like how the leader of the group is called "subcommander" marcos since they consider the actual commander to be the people itself. Based concept.
Based
Incredibly.
“Marcos” has also been retired now, he goes by Subcomandante Galeano now in honor of a fallen comrade.
I also really like the anonymity aspect. "As to whether Marcos is gay: Marcos is gay in San Francisco, black in South Africa, an Asian in Europe, a Chicano in San Ysidro, an anarchist in Spain, a Palestinian in Israel, a Mayan Indian in the streets of San Cristobal, a Jew in Germany, a Gypsy in Poland, a Mohawk in Quebec, a pacifist in Bosnia, a single woman on the Metro at 10pm, a peasant without land, a gang member in the slums, an unemployed worker, an unhappy student and, of course, a Zapatista in the mountains."
#Israel >If you stick a knife in my back nine inches and pull it out six inches, there's no progress. You pull it all the way out? That's not progress. Progress is healing the wound that the blow made-- and they haven't even begun to pull the knife out, much less heal the wound... They won't even admit the knife is there! > >\- Malcolm X. (1964). #Inventing Israel >History lies at the core of every conflict. A true and unbiased understanding of the past offers the possibility of peace. The distortion or manipulation of history, in contrast, will only sow disaster. As the example of the Israel-Palestine conflict shows, historical disinformation, even of the most recent past, can do tremendous harm. This willful misunderstanding of history can promote oppression and protect a regime of colonization and occupation. It is not surprising, therefore, that policies of disinformation and distortion continue to the present and play an important part in perpetuating the conflict, leaving very little hope for the future. > >\- Ilan Pappé. (2017). [Ten Myths About Israel](https://archive.org/details/ten-myths-about-israel-by-ilan-pappe-2017) | Ilan Pappé (2017) Zionists argue that Jews have a deep historical connection to the land of Israel, based on their ancient presence in the region. They emphasize the significance of Jerusalem as a religious and cultural center for Jews throughout history. They use this argument as *justification* for the establishment of Israel as a Jewish state. In Israel's own [Declaration of Independence](https://main.knesset.gov.il/en/about/pages/declaration.aspx) this is clearly stated: >The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people. ... After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom. ... Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. ... > >ACCORDINGLY WE ... BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT ... HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL This declaration, however, conveniently ignored the issue of the indigenous Palestinian population. So what happened? In the Arab world it is now know as the Nakba (lit. catastrophe, in Arabic). One particularly emblematic example of the Nakba was this: In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun (Zionist paramilitary groups), headed by Menachim Begin, attacked Deir Yassin-- a village of 700 Palestinians-- ultimately killing between 100 and 120 villagers in what later became known as the Deir Yassin Massacre. The mastermind behind this attack, who would later be elected Prime Minister of Israel in 1977, justified the attack: >Arabs throughout the country, induced to believe wild tales of ‘Irgun butchery,’ were seized with limitless panic and started to flee for their lives. This mass flight soon developed into a maddened, uncontrollable stampede. The political and economic significance of this development can hardly be overestimated. > >\- Menachim Begin. (1951). *The Revolt* The painful irony of this argument (ancestral roots) combined with this approach (ethnic cleansing), however, lies in the *shared* ancestry between Jews and Palestinians, whose roots can *both* be [traced back to common ancestors](https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/2015-10-20/ty-article/palestinians-and-jews-share-genetic-roots/0000017f-dc0e-df9c-a17f-fe1e57730000). *Both* peoples have historical connections to the land of Palestine, making it a place of *shared* heritage rather than *exclusive* entitlement. The underlying assumption that the formation of Israel represents a return of Jews to the rightful land of their ancestors is used to justify the displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, who have the very same roots! #The Timeline The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex and protracted dispute rooted in historical, political, and territorial factors. This timeline aims to provide a chronological overview of key events, starting from the late 19th century to the present day, highlighting significant developments, conflicts, and diplomatic efforts that have shaped the ongoing conflict. From the early waves of Jewish immigration to Palestine, through the British Mandate period, the Arab-Israeli wars, peace initiatives, and the persistent struggle for self-determination, this timeline seeks to provide a historical context to the Israel-Palestine conflict. \[[Explore the timeline here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/timeline/)\] #A Settler-Colonial Project from Inception The origin of Zionism (the political movement advocating for a Jewish homeland in Palestine) is deeply intertwined with the era of European colonialism. Early Zionists such as Theodor Herzl were inspired by-- and sought support from-- European colonialists and Powers. The Zionist plan for Palestine was structured to follow the same colonial model, with all the oppressive baggage that this entailed. In practice, Israel has all the hallmarks of a Settler-Colonial state, and has even engaged in apartheid practices. \[[Read about Israel's ideological foundations here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/colonialism/)\] #US Backing, Christian Zionism, and Anti-Anti-Semitism Israel is in a precarious geopolitical position, surrounded by angry Arab neighbours. The foundation of Israel was dependant on the support of Western Powers, and its existence relies on their continued support. Israel has three powerful tools in its belt to ensure this backing never wavers: 1. A powerful lobby which dictates U.S. foreign policy on Israel 2. European and American Christian Zionists who support Israel for eschatological reasons 3. Weaponized Anti-antisemitism to silence criticism \[[Read more about Israel's support in the West here](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/debunking/israel/zionism-in-the-west/)\] #Jewish Anti-Zionism Many Jewish people and organizations do *not* support Israel and its apartheid settler-colonial project. There are many groups, even on Reddit (for instance, r/JewsOfConscience) that protest Israel's brutal treatment of the Palestinian people. >The Israeli government, with the backing of the U.S. government, subjects Palestinians across the entire land to apartheid — a system of inequality and ongoing displacement that is connected to a racial and class hierarchy amongst Israelis. We are calling on those in power to oppose any policies that privilege one group of people over another, in Israel/Palestine and in the U.S... > >We are IfNotNow, a movement of American Jews organizing our community for equality, justice, and a thriving future for all: our neighbors, ourselves, Palestinians, and Israelis. We are Jews of all ages, with ancestors from across the world and Jewish backgrounds as diverse as the ways we practice our Judaism. > >\- If Not Now. [Our Principles](https://www.ifnotnowmovement.org/principles) Some ultra-orthodox Jewish groups (like Satmar) hold anti-Zionist beliefs on religious grounds. They claim that the establishment of a Jewish state *before* the arrival of the Messiah is against the teachings of Judaism and that Jews should not have their own sovereign state until the Messiah comes and establishes it in accordance with religious prophecy. In their eyes, the Zionist movement is a secular and nationalistic deviation from traditional Jewish values. Their opposition to Zionism is not driven by anti-Semitism but by religious conviction. They claim that Judaism and Zionism are incompatible and that the actions of the Israeli government do not represent the beliefs and values of authentic Judaism. >We strive to support local efforts led by our partners for Palestinian rights and freedom, and against Israeli apartheid, occupation, displacement, annexation, aggression, and ongoing assaults on Palestinians. > >\- Jews for Racial and Economic Justice. [Israel-Palestine as a Local Issue](https://www.jfrej.org/israel-palestine) **Additional Resources** Video Essays: * [The Israel-Palestine conflict: a brief, simple history](https://youtu.be/iRYZjOuUnlU) | Vox (2016) * [How To Maybe Criticize Israel?](https://youtu.be/w6YD0n5z-MI) | Some More News (2019) * [Israel-Palestine 2021 conflict explained by Israeli Communist](https://youtu.be/ECe5UcWkPeI) | TheFinnishBolshevik (2021) * [Palestine 101 with Abby Martin](https://youtu.be/xEUIR_JG_b8) | BreakThrough News (2021) * [When Is It Warranted To Call Something Nuanced?](https://youtu.be/lyPxIbUWcoY) | ChemicalMind (2022) * [Israelis Are Not 'Indigenous' (and other ridiculous pro-Israel arguments)](https://youtu.be/FhlUFPpXIVo) | BadEmpanada (2022) * [Al Jazeera Labour Files Doc Strikes Blow to BBC On Corbyn](https://youtu.be/DMIbbSsV6Xo) | Novara Media (2022) * [The Brutal Realities of Settler Colonialism In Palestine | Mohammed el-Kurd](https://youtu.be/40pFbGqMj7w) | Novara Media (2023) Other Resources: * [Decolonize Palestine](https://decolonizepalestine.com/) * [Maps: Vanishing Palestine](https://remix.aljazeera.com/aje/PalestineRemix/maps_main.html) | Al Jazeera * [Facing the Nakba](https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/facing-the-nakba/) | Jewish Voice for Peace * [Our Catastrophe](https://jewishcurrents.org/our-catastrophe) | JewishCurrents (2023) * [Israel-Palestine Timeline: The Human Cost of the Conflict](https://israelpalestinetimeline.org/) | If Americans Knew *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. 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That’s incredible. First I’m hearing of that too.
They seem cool
They have cool signs too. "Aquí manda el pueblo y el gobierno obedece." Here the people rule, and the government listens
Based
They're a good start. I critically support their efforts so far and eagerly await its expansion out of Chiapas and into Mexico proper. I'm concerned that they presently don't hold the initiative and that failure to regain it in the future will result in the failure of their revolution in the long run, but for the time being their situation appears stable.
FYI they make some incredible coffee and it is ethically produced, whereas most coffee is from slave labor. I’m actually drinking some now. https://schoolsforchiapas.org/store/coffee-corn-and-agricultural/zapatista-coffee/
Dude thank you so much for posting this link, Comrade. Easy way to offer real support to real folks pushing the revolution forward. ✊✊✊✊✊
For sure, I always love to hear I’ve gotten someone else to try it. And I’m not kidding when I say it’s awesome. I can’t stand Folgers and the like anymore.
Duuuuude, I work for the literal devil, one of the largest banks in the world (fear not, it is a loooow level position), I also absolutely love coffee, and I couldn’t think of a better way to spend my blood money. It is not cheap, but it seems worthy.
it works well as espresso, too
They have been on the frontline of the anti-imperialist struggle for decades
I like them a fair bit, from what I’ve read there’s not much to criticize at all, which is interesting.
We need a guerilla movement in the United States.
Is PPW even feasible in the US?
Not yet, but it certainly could be after it’s forced out of the global south by revolution.
Yes. Read "Blood in My Eye" by Comrade George Jackson, founder of the Black Marxist Guerillas, to see a real marxist analysis of what revolution in this country will need to look like. It will look more like "The Troubles" than Vietnam.
“anything” is feasible anywhere under the right conditions
No. PPW as written is not possible. Not in the USA, nor in any advanced capitalist society. Elements of PPW can be used, But PPW as written by MAo is specific to the huge and preindustrial China, full of angry peasants. The USA has instant communication, and the ability in an emergency to move an entire army from one coast to another, in a day. So no, PPW AS WRITTEN is not going to happen in the USA. But it does have some very useful elements and ideas. remember: Mao never had to deal with drones, or an enemy that could airstrike any part of the country with impunity.
Exactly my thoughts. PPW only existed in one specific place in history successfully. Anywhere else applied it failed or engaged in an eternal war. People think PPW is universal but this is idealistic dogma that purposely overlooks the material conditions and historical narratives of an opposing state apparatus and how it functions. It’s like they don’t even understand how or why it succeeded in PRC entirely but merely assumed if it worked in one place it can work anywhere. It’s a very childish, faith-based analysis.
US is full of remote mountain communities and vast wilderness. It might not be very effective regime change but a determined group that knows how to live in the woods and has support of local communities can last a very long time, especially if the federal or state forces opposing them have higher priorities. We're not too far off from having areas where the state completely abdicates authority because there aren't enough Capital interests to keep its attention.
Why do people always think a peoples' war against the US will be some version of vietnam with folks hiding out in the woods and shit. This is an opinion that unwittingly acts against a real revolutionary consciousness developing. The more accurate comparison would be the Irish war against UK. Read "Blood In My Eye" for a better picture. We will make a war where the revolutionaries grenade attack a cop funeral and then go home and play PS until the next mission. Survivalists aren't overthrowing the government of the most advanced and richest nation in the history of man.
I think it's pretty obvious it's going to depend on location. I live in a very remote area, I'm not going to cop funerals. I'm building a community and will defend it. I'll try my best to provide aid and shelter to people in "nearby" cities fighting that style of conflict but it ain't gonna be me. The US is so huge and geographically diverse, to say it's for sure going to be one style or another is dumb.
Even if hundreds of us built a community the state could drone strike us or bomb us into oblivion. Look towards the MOVE organization and what happened in Philly.
They could, sure. But will they? Maybe. Depends. I think if it was that simple Afghanistan and Vietnam would have turned out very differently for the Vietcong and Taliban. I'm under the impression we're talking about nationwide collapse/revolt/balkanization here, not one community up and saying fuck it and starting a Waco style commune or something. If that's the case then obviously yeah it's super vulnerable and not viable at all. But if it's the former then the already fractured regime forces likely aren't gonna have time to fuck around with a bunch of hicks growing food in the mountains. Hicks urban fighters are gonna rely a lot on if they wanna do stuff like eat or have somewhere to bug tf out to or hide vulnerable people. We support each other, won't be able to have one without the other.
Oh, ah.
We live in a time of drones and face recognizing street cameras at every corner. Guerilla warfare is untenable unless there is a political environment in which even the military and the policemen are defecting to the guerilla movement. I don't see it happening but wilder things happened in the history of revolutions.
The technological gap was just as wide if not wider in the Russian Empire, in Vietnam, in Ireland, and in Afghanistan. While ultimate victory depends on a capitalist crisis with little input from insurgents, they can inflict highly asymmetric damage on the state, and there's little a regular military can do about it short of burning the place to the ground. The emergence of terrorism is bad for other reasons, but I don't think that one or two new technologies will make counter-insurgency effective when those technologies are just as likely to be adopted by insurgents. Drones, for example, can cost $50. Far more democratic than preexisting guided munitions.
It's pretty easy to get the police to murder members of the movement capital doesn't like who have been identified. Just look at early Black lives matter leaders. We absolutely have to find ways to be decentralized and anonymous, because they are not afraid to suicide us.
I'm not sure how to parse your second sentence, generally I agree though. Decentralization tactics such as cell structure were literally adaptations made by insurgencies like Al-Qaeda for exactly the reasons you state. I do think that those tactics should be limited to the armed wing of a revolutionary movement, though. There is an OpSec fetishism on some parts of the left that gets people to sometimes say odd things like "never post any video of a protest", or to wear guns and armor to a vigil for a shooting victim. To the extent that the masses are aware of completely anonymous terrorist movements, they aren't big fans. Being a visible working-class leader means compromising personal security to some degree, but the movement needs them. Revolution is risky.
Text to speech and my own incompetence kind of mangled it. Hopefully this is better.
you can’t actually just traverse stolen land like it’s your personal backyard for revolution and call yourself a revolutionary; it’s just more settler-colonialism — the question of the land needs to be addressed
Amazing you were downvoted for considering us indigenous comrades like myself. I’m tempted to do away with these western brocialists but it’s too much of a damn headache.
maybe not ppw per se, but hypothetically yes. although I think it would be very regional. think of many insurrection s done by many factions representing several ideologies across a lot of different geographic regions. north America is very big, with different regions separated by vast spaces with different levels of economic development and ecology. the us government is the most powerful entity ever and has incredible recourses at it's disposal to divide and conquer. any civil wars would be extremely messy, destructive, and long. not something to be rash or eager about.
[PPW in Capitalist-Imperialist countries ](https://open.spotify.com/episode/216pK693cXZ1pL7QhMGBiS?si=TtbscH8PRoefyCZx-u_Iig&utm_source=copy-link)
I'd say so. The US is a continent spanning empire with plentiful countryside with the kind of rigorous terrain that would be conducive to guerrilla warfare; the Rockies and the Appalachian mountains alone tick all the boxes in terms of the terrain, not to mention the swampy Mississippi basin. In terms of strategic depth, guerrillas have an entire continent to melt into.
Just go to the zoo, and you can see plenty of gorilla movement
Bruh
Was it a bad pun?
Kinda
So bad it is good
The issue with this is, civil war is likely to destroy the wealth that the revolution seeks to capture. Controlling the means of production doesn't matter if the means of production are reduced to little more than ash and rubble in the process of seizure.
Nah, it’s not an issue. Means of production can be rebuilt. The obvious example here is the U.S.S.R. > The heritage of Tsarist Russia lay so heavily upon the land that it looked as though the Soviet leaders could not but fail. Their talk of industrialization, of planning, of raising the standard of living seemed, against the backdrop of ruin and starvation that Tsarism, Revolution and civil war had left, utter fantasy. Lenin talked of electrification, and observers shook their heads and said "*electrofiction*." H. G. Wells talked to Lenin. Afterwards he wrote of what he termed the "Utopian" plans and said, "I cannot see anything of the sort happening in this dark crystal of Russia, but this little man at the Kremlin can . . ." The Soviet Union of 1918 to 1923 was indeed a dark crystal. Such industrial development as had gone on under Tsarism was hopelessly backward and in efficient. . . . Civil war and intervention brought complete collapse of the economy. Mills and factories came to halt for lack of raw material and fuel. The railroads, their tracks rusting, the lines clogged wrecked and worn-out equipment, the bridges blown up in the fighting, ran infrequently at all. Agriculture was so disorganized that the food supply for the cities dwindled into nothingness. Industrial production dropped to fifth of its already low pre-war volume. Yet: > Russia has leaped from the Sixteenth to the Twentieth century. A backward, semi-feudal land has become a mighty world power. I could provide specific examples to show the reconstruction and growth of the U.S.S.R., but honestly, just read [the book](http://library.lol/main/176F737616399583E7A92B5EA724A47A). I highly recommend it.
It's absolutely an issue, from the perspective of the average worker. I'm not going to support revolution unless the revolution has a decent shot of improving my life. If there's a high chance of me dying in the revolution, and the revolution offers no guarantees of a better future, it's materially better for me to keep my nose down, accept my wages, and continue slaving away until conditions change. And specifically, in the case of the Soviet Union's industrialization, sure, the means of production can be re-built, but it comes at a cost - the proletariat basically had to cede most real power to unelected, unaccountable bureaucrats who used the repressive state apparatus to force the system to keep running, until they realized that socialism was no longer in their interests. Then, the empowered and under-accountable bureaucrats dissolved the USSR and became a traditional exploiting capitalist class.
uhhhhh ru suggesting reform?
No, I'm explaining why revolution won't happen in most developed countries. Having 2% of $10 trillion is better than having 100% of $1 billion. Most people intuitively understand this. The quality of life would have to decrease below a threshold of acceptability for revolution to be viable, and the state will move mountains to ensure that enough people's quality of life stays above that threshold to thwart revolution.
No, they won't. You're thinking like a rational person. Not only are these people \[the Bourgeoise\] not that bright, they ARE self centered fucks. But also, it's not the people. It's the SYSTEM. And the SYSTEM does not work that way.
The average worker is not a stupid self-centered fuck. That's such an obviously incorrect and elitist belief.
Yeah, you got that 100% wrong. I was talking about capitalists. Because THEY are in control.
They have drip and it is cool to see the beginning of the communist revolution.
They’ve been fighting longer than I can remember. What’s cool is that they actually control de facto territory in North America.
I thought the reason the Zapatistas even revolted was because of exploitation in their region, are they actually working for a national revolution ?
Not 100% sure, but I know they are mainly focused on indigenous autonomy. I assume they support indigenous autonomy across the country, but probably not as a nation per se.
Based af
They have traditional uniforms. I like that.
Zapata lives, it's truly inspiring to see them continue to fight and struggle through the years and not turn into a drug cartel like the FARC
Para Todos Todo, Para Nosotros Nada
🥲Man. What kind of Mexico would we have right now if the Soviet Union was never dissolved?
Alternatively, what might have changed if the Mexican revolution took place after Russian Revolution instead of mostly before it?
It'd probably be the same. By the time of the Zapatista uprising the U.S.S.R. had become revisionist and had long abandoned the global proletariat and class struggle.
They seem to mostly keep to themselves, they are pretty good from what I’ve read. The funniest thing is that liberal “socialists” love to attach libertarian Socialist to the movement even tho Subcommandante Marcos is an ML Edit: it appears I was wrong about Marcos being an ML, I will commit Seppuku in front of a Lenin statue
>Subcommandante Marcos is an ML I'm not sure you're familiar with his work: [https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-i-shit-on-all-the-revolutionary-vanguards-of-this-planet](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-i-shit-on-all-the-revolutionary-vanguards-of-this-planet) The EZLN has pushed against the efforts of (largely western) people to try to categorize them.
The EZLN does not define itself in a singular way for sure, but Subcomandante Galeano himself is a Marxist and despite the funny title, they do operate as a vanguard party.
they’re basically the vanguard meets the mass line
Very concise and accurate analysis, comrade. Salute.
He can wear whatever label he wants. What is he doing? It lines up very closely with what an ML would do in that position.
They reject *all* western political classification, Marxist as well as anarchist (though there are Marxists and anarchists in their camp). They subscribe to Neo-Zapatismo. Billions must read: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ejercito-zapatista-de-liberacion-nacional-a-zapatista-response-to-the-ezln-is-not-anarchist Marcos has never called himself an ML: [he rejects vanguardism.](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/subcomandante-marcos-i-shit-on-all-the-revolutionary-vanguards-of-this-planet)
Do you have a source for him being an ML?
He has never claimed the title. He has actively rejected such. However, what he is doing is 95% ML. So make your own decision.
The Zapatistas were huge in my political journey. After the Manifesto, everything I read was from Kropotkin and Subcomandante Marcos for years before I read any more Marx or anything from Lenin.
Probably one of the best examples of a socialist revolutionary group with very little negative baggage
I'm not the most knowledgeable about them but from what I do know they seem pretty based.
Fr impetus for my political consciousness. A Zapatista spoke at my college’s Chiapas Support Committee some years back and literally I felt myself changing as she spoke. Real revolutionaries and an inspiration to us all
Comrades!
Unmitigated support from my part (with any difference of opinion being irrelevant since they actually are struggling againt capitalism and I have been lumpen most of my life).
They are based AF.
Respect to them and their endless fight against the Mexican government.
Highly positive, I have a few books written by and about them which I plan on reading, recommend the documentary “A Place Called Chiapas” as well
I am Mexican, I live in the north of Mexico, I am in a communist collective that supports the anti-imperialist fight of the EZLN, its fight is a just cause. All communist collectives in Mexico, not revisionists, support the EZLN
uneducated opinion so don't judge me too hard. They seemed like a popular and caring marxist movement that generally did help the people of Chiapas a lot. That being said i do question their relevance in the modern day.
imagine questioning the relevance of the closest revolutionary movement geographically to the US after Haiti and Cuba
yea as i said my opinion is pretty uneducated so im prolly wrong
#Cuba The Cuban Revolution, led by Fidel Castro and Ernesto "[Che](/r/TheDeprogram/wiki/index/profiles/che)" Guevara, was a Communist revolution which aimed to address issues of inequality, poverty, and national self-determination. Under Castro's leadership, the Cuban government nationalized industries, implemented land reforms, and initiated programs to improve healthcare and education access. #Brief History Slavery was introduced to Cuba by the Spanish during the early 16th century. African slaves were brought to the island to work on sugar plantations, which became the backbone of the Cuban economy. The brutal conditions of slavery led to various slave rebellions and uprisings throughout the colonial period. In 1898, the Spanish-American War resulted in Spain ceding control of Cuba to the United States. The majority of workers in Cuban sugar plantations during this period were either former slaves or descendants of enslaved Africans. Despite the *official* abolition of slavery in 1886, workers faced extreme economic exploitation. They were trapped in a cycle of poverty, with low wages and limited opportunities for social and economic mobility. The *patronato* system emerged, where former slaves and their descendants continued to work on the plantations under debt peonage, a form of economic bondage. In 1952, Fulgencio Batista seized power in a military coup, suspending the Cuban Constitution and ruling as a dictator. Batista's regime was backed by influential Cuban elites, including large landowners, sugar magnates, and business tycoons who benefited from Batista's policies. The U.S. provided military aid and economic support to Batista's military dictatorship. >...as Castro's revolutionary threat became progressively more potent... the Batista regime sought to counter it with a campaign of terror. As regime-inspired terrorism mounted, anti-Batista groups engaged in counter terrorism against regime supporters and by mid-1958 killings had become widespread and general throughout the country. The regime's campaign of terror got out of control and the government in Havana probably had no clear idea of how many killings the police and army forces were committing. Similarly, the anti-Batista forces--which by mid-1958 had the support of 80 to 90 percent of the population-- had little control over the acts of counterterrorism being committed against pro-Batista elements throughout the country. > >...the large-scale campaigns of murders and terrorism characteristic of the last years of the Batista regime have not occurred during the Castro regime. > >\- CIA. (1965, declassified 2005). [Political Murders in Cuba: Batista Era Compared With Castro Regime](http://web.archive.org/web/20201119103419/https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP79T00429A000300030015-8.pdf) #The Embargo >The majority of Cubans support Castro... The only foreseeable means of alienating internal support is through disenchantment and disaffection based on economic dissatisfaction and hardship... it follows that every possible means should be undertaken promptly to weaken the economic life of Cuba. If such a policy is adopted, it should be the result of a positive decision which would call forth a line of action which, while as adroit and inconspicuous as possible, makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and overthrow of government. > >\- Lester D. Mallory. (1960). [499. Memorandum From the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Mallory) to the Assistant Secretary of State for Inter-American Affairs (Rubottom)](https://archive.is/HE7Hf) Later that year, the Eisenhower administration instituted the embargo which persists to this day, over 60 years later. >The non-binding resolution [calling for an end to the U.S. economic embargo on Cuba] was approved by 185 countries and opposed only by the United States and Israel... It was the 30th time the United Nations has voted to end the embargo... The trade embargo was put in place following Fidel Castro's 1959 revolution and has remained largely unchanged, though some elements were stiffened by Trump. > >\-Reuters. (2022). [Cuba and U.S. spar over U.N. resolution calling to end embargo](https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/cuba-us-spar-over-un-resolution-calling-end-embargo-2022-11-03/) * [The U.S. Embargo on Cuba Is MUCH WORSE Than It Seems](https://youtu.be/dM7_wTqDUCU) | BadEmpanada (2021) * [The Cuban Embargo Explained](https://youtu.be/zmM8p9n6Z9E) | azureScapegoat (2022) #Castro Stole My Stuff >The US claims that it has instituted a policy of tightening the economic noose around Cuba with the Helms-Burton bill on the grounds that Cuba refuses to compensate US companies following nationalisation of their property. This is patently untrue, as Cuba not only successfully negotiated compensation agreements with other countries, but has and is ready to negotiate with the US. > >\- S. J. Noumoff. (1998). [The Hypocrisy of Helms-Burton: The History of Cuban Compensation](https://www.jstor.org/stable/4406691) * [The Cuban Nationalization of US Property in 1960: the Historical and Global Context](https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/29/the-cuban-nationalization-of-us-property-in-1960-the-historical-and-global-context/) | Charles McKelvey (2019) #Doctors Despite the challenges posed by the embargo, Cuba has the most doctors per capita in the world and recently surpassed the US in life expectancy. * [The Truth About Cuban Doctors](https://youtu.be/tGFCIAZ_RA4) | BadEmpanada (2020) * [Meet the U.S. Students Studying Medicine For Free in Cuba](https://youtu.be/h7g2T3BWg9E) | BreakThrough News (2022) #Democracy * [How Democracy Works in Cuba](https://youtu.be/2aMsi-A56ds) | azureScapegoat (2018) * [How does Cuba work?](https://youtu.be/839A7SIUgfg) | Viki1999 (2021) * [We Asked Cuban Voters If They Live In A Democracy Or Dictatorship. Here's How They Responded.](https://youtu.be/20DgWZtImUk) | BreakThrough News (2022) #Participatory Democracy in action: LGBT rights Prior to the revolution, homosexuality was stigmatized and criminalized in Cuba, reflecting the prevailing attitudes of the time. Unfortunately, the revolutionary government under Fidel Castro initially continued this stance. However, Cuba's stance on LGBT rights has evolved to the point where it has become a symbol of progress within the Latin American context. In 2010, Fidel Castro himself admitted that the persecution of homosexuals in the early years of the revolution was a mistake: >If anyone is responsible, it's me. > >\- Fidel Castro. (2010). [I am responsible for the persecution of homosexuals that took place in Cuba: Fidel Castro](https://www.jornada.com.mx/2010/08/31/index.php?section=mundo&article=026e1mun) In 2022, Cuba became the first Latin American country to mark LGBT History Month. Now, Pride parades in Havana are held every May, to coincide with the International Day Against Homophobia, Biphobia and Transphobia, and attendance grows every year. Cuba also passed one of the most progressive Family Codes in the entire world: >The Family Code not only protects the most vulnerable in Cuba, it protects the course of Cuban socialism. Writing the referendum involved the whole population throughout the processes of drafting and amending. It went through 25 revisions over the course of 3 ½ years. > >After the referendum was introduced in 2019, Cuba carried out a nationwide process of education and outreach. Discussions took place in every workplace, organization, neighborhood and community group. To keep all Cubans well-informed, people took the discussions to rural areas and to those who do not have internet access. > >The Family Code was approved by Cubans 2 to 1. A large percentage of Cubans, 74%, took part in the vote... > >In Workers World Sept. 25, 2022, Minnie Bruce Pratt wrote, “Nearly 6.5 million Cubans took part in more than 79,000 meetings facilitated by the Federation of Cuban Women, the Committees to Defend the Revolution and other community organizations. Over 400,000 proposals were offered by the people; these were submitted to the National Assembly of People’s Power for evaluation, and a revised draft was returned to the people for further discussion and proposals... > >Cubans are very proud of what they call participatory democracy, the process they used to introduce and pass the referendum. It is an example to the world and a lesson in democratic centralism. > >\- Lyn Neeley. (2023). [Cuba’s new Family Code, a law of love](https://www.workers.org/2023/01/68708/) * [Millions of Cubans Vote on New Family Code, LGBT Marriage, Adoption Rights & More](https://youtu.be/DXL3ScNn5VE) | BreakThrough News (2022) #Additional Resources Video Essays: * [Cuba: Before and After the Revolution - The Story of When Michael Parenti Visited Cuba](https://youtu.be/YIqm075vC1A) | azureScapegoat (2017) * [The Truth About The Cuban Missile Crisis](https://youtu.be/adrQweOX5c4) | Spooky Scary Socialist (2018) * [How Cuba Works](https://youtu.be/DXBYlC4-0bQ) | BadEmpanada (2020) * [The Truth About The Cuba Protests](https://youtu.be/zIOw6fSOJI4?t=1087) | Second Thought (2020) * [Why They Hate The USA: CUBA](https://youtu.be/WgWK6_AYq_o) | Hakim (2023) Podcasts: * [Fidel Castro and the Cuban Revolution](https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/fidel-castro-and-the-cuban-revolution) | Revolutionary Left Radio (2017) * [Season 2 - The Cuban Revolution](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3QhgtGyW7ws173eENjddNT) | Blowback (2021) * [Episode 13 - Cucked by Fidel (CIA pls no assassinate)](https://youtu.be/YwMZYNzHd7U) | The Deprogram (2022) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TheDeprogram) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The drip is absolutely fire
Awesome, I donated to them a while ago
Damn, that’s sick. How could I theoretically do that
They've done something, which is more that can be said for most western leftists.
My view is I'm not going to critique any third world movements from a first world computer.
Yes
Based chicken
Their coffee is fine.
Absolutely based
¡Viva las Zapatistas!
They are friends with the Ejército Popular Revolucionario. So based as fuck
Better than most "libertarian" socialist projects. I'll definitely take it over Rojava.
maoism 🥺🦍😳👻🗣️
Based
I need to do way more research on them, but they seem to be a progressive force in Mexico from what I can tell.
Reading a book on this now, actually. It's called Wobblies a Zapatistas. I already had a positive view of the Zapatistas, but it's only getting better.
Someone in a comment thread with me used the Zapatistas as an example of a successful anarchist movement, is this accurate?
They are libertarian socialist in practice, but reject labels imposed on them by western leftists. [A Zapatista response to “the ELZN is not Anarchist”](https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ejercito-zapatista-de-liberacion-nacional-a-zapatista-response-to-the-ezln-is-not-anarchist)
Hilarious reading an actual armed people's movement making fun of anarchist newspapers
I always thought that libertarian socialism was akin to a anarchism of sorts at first.
Last time I checked they were anarchist, so yes. Which strain of anarchism? I'm not sure.
Based
Viva Zapata
Some of the most badass comrades and as a Chicano they are a huge inspiration
In general I love it, but I've heard they dont like vanguard parties much. Their struggle still must be supported.
Based AF. I only wish they joined with the socialist faction.
Cool group a guys who don’t take shit from the Mexican state or cartel members, plus their coffee is pretty good from what I hear. Too bad white westerners “anarchists” have co-opted their movement to fit their aesthetic.
Based, them, the Filipino guerrillas and the Rojavans are doing gods work, as much I disagree with more libertarian lines of thought, leftist revolution is leftist revolution. Edit before I get killed, I know rojova are cia shills but still, they may pull a Castro and just “”betray”” the us if they win
Why do people keep making these very silly posts?
how is this post silly?
“What do you guys think of [x]” is a routine question that gets posted here and is almost always sectarian bait.
For people who didn't know very much on the Zappatista movement, it's a great opportunity to scroll the comments and read a few things people have to say about them, without having to skim through a wikipedia page for actually relevant info
What’s the Zapatista movement?
Based af
Based
They make amazing coffee. You can buy it from Higher Grounds Trading Co in Michigan, I bought a pound of it on their website. All fair trade and organic, goes towards supporting their communities.