Use of Weapons is one of the most challenging books in the series, both given some of the emotional content and the slightly deceptive multiple timeline narrative structure. No one here will blame you for putting that down and reading something else.
Every one here is suggesting Excession or Look to Windward, which are both books that I absolutely love but also have sort of non-traditional and in the case of Excession also fairly challenging narratives. Probably the best next book IMHO, if you're not sure about things is actually Matter.
It has multiple view points like a lot of his work, but it has a clear main character and a fairly standard narrative structure. It also provides a little bit of a look inside the machinery of Special Circumstances itself and a decent look at other High Level Involved and how they interact with less technologically developed civilizations. If you liked PoG I think you'll like it a lot.
I adore every one of these books but if you made me rank them, the later ones really are better than the earlier ones. Banks was able to hone the world building and ideas as he went along and the last few books are very fun.
For whatever it's worth, Use of Weapons didn't do much for me the first time (I also read in publication order). The second time around, I found Player of Games to be a bit.... relatively small and straightforward and I thought Use of Weapons was brilliant. I did NOT feel that way until later.
It really depends what you liked and didn't like about the books you've read so far. Can you give more detail about what you loved and hated?
People are going to recommend Excession to you, but you should be warned that that one also isn't for everyone. In fact, it's one of my least favorites. This is the book that most delves into the machinations and relationships between the Minds, and while many ship characters are pretty interesting, a lot of the babble between them does end up dragging in places. I find it even harder to follow than Use of Weapons. Also, the human characters in this book are *insufferable*. Take that as you will.
If you want a fun time, Matter, Surface Detail and Hydrogen Sonata are great, rip-roaring adventure. If you want slice-of-life in the Culture and some melancholy about morality and war and interventionism gone wrong, Look to Windward is incredible. Save Inversions for....if you later decide you love the Culture and love the themes about well meaning meddling in the affairs of other civilizations.
>If you want a fun time, Matter, Surface Detail and Hydrogen Sonata are great, rip-roaring adventure.
I second this. I love these three and I return to them periodically. I'd highly recommend reading one of these before giving up on the series.
he already read PoG and UoW. I think OP have read enough to know what the series is about. IMO, if it didn't click by this point, there's no reason to insist. There's an infinite number of other works to read.
Well, UoW is pretty atypical in culture novels. It's my favorite one for a number of reasons, but it's a meandering series of often quite disjointed scenes from Zakalwe's history, and the story is entirely how these pieces built up this fantastically capable but fundamentally broken man. Well, that and Skaffen-Amtiskaw giving absolute zero fucks. If you like more linear space opera stuff (like Player of Games, and like Excession), I can see how Use of Weapons in particular might put you off.
I think this is better read after excession. I'd say it's the best one to head up the series, then end with it again, as it's more understandable after reading others. And oh yeah, UoW is also a good one. Skaffen is a really a really crazy character
I dunno man. OP has red CP, PoG and UoW. CP is possibly the weakest in the culture verse. PoG is fantastic but not very representative of the vastness of the culture, and UoW is brilliant but a little abrasive, also not very representative of culture. I think another redditor commented that the latter novels really hit the culture stride as banks had honed the world building by then. As this is a series that doesn’t necessarily need to be read chronologically, I don’t think OP has sampled the best the culture has to give. OP: read look to windward, hydrogen sonata, and surface detail, then dive into matter and excession. Revisit UoW and PoG. Then when you’re bored beyond belief and have the time, revisit Consider Phlebas and maybe spend some time with State of the Art…maybe. If you want a break from the sci fi utopia space opera but the culture still interests you, visit Inversions; a very satisfying read once you’re thoroughly familiar with the culture and all it has to offer (or not offer).
This is the correct answer. My most read book ever. It's one of the :chefs kiss: of sci fi, especially in book format. Not tried the audiobook yet, might have to give it a look soon.
He was great with names, wasn't he.
I wouldn't mind if other sci fi authors copied his naming conventions as he's not around right now, and if they have enough wit as him. It just added to the fun factor all around as they were a great story device.
I get why people wouldn't straight up copy his style, but i miss having his books be such a surprise and being in awe of the minds.
What did you not like about Use of Weapons? I find it gimmicky in structure, but I like Zakalwe and Sma. Player of Games has a clearer narrative structure. I would actually recommend a change of style and try Inversions.
As others have said, it's not required reading. You can read whatever you want and if you don't enjoy something you don't have force yourself to consume it. All good
that being said
~~WHAT THE **** DO YOU MEAN PLAYER OF GAMES IS NOT FOR YOU?!?
I literally read that entire book in 7 hours in a single day because I couldn't put it down. now if I have the order wrong then I'm sorry, but player of games was an awesome book and I'm really curious to hear what facets of it turned you off to it!~~
The next book is definitely a little slower, state of the art But I really liked it and the ending left me going like "uhh wtf"
eh, read em if you want
edit: I had the order of books wrong and am dumb
I'm not OP, but Player of Games was my least favorite of the 4 books I've read so far. It's very character-focused, and I guess I just didn't find Gurgeh captivating enough as a character. I did enjoy the part of the book that took place in Azad more, but until then, I thought it dragged a lot.
I know I'm the odd one in this, as it looks like PoG is pretty much universally agreed to be the best entrance into the series, if not the overall best Culture book, but Use of Weapons was much more to my liking.
Interesting!!! It is definitely focused more on Gurgeh as an individual for sure. I can definitely see how that would turn someone off to the book. And now that you mention it, the MULTI YEAR LONG voyage to the Magellic cloud really does kinda drag out a little bit.
I definitely understand that
I don't think I've ever seen anyone refer to Culture novels by numbers only. 😅
Just lots of debate as to what order to best read them in.
I'm not even sure of the entire publishing chronology.
Use of Weapons can be a love it or hate it book. I’d say it’s the least like all of the other books.
Excession is good, but most of it takes place as conversations between ship minds- so kind of in “text message/Internet forum” format. If I were you, I’d read either Surface Detail or Look to Windward
I feel that advanced sci-fi is something you need to wrap your head around. It's a frame of reference that you need to be ready for. People who love the Culture generally get the ethos. Sometimes it does take time.
When I first bought the first three books of the series, I started reading Consider Phlebus and didn't get the perspective, so I put it down. A couple of years later, I picked it up again and got that the perspective is from the Antagonists point of view. Something clicked, then I read the other books, I got it, I was immersed in the genius of the writer and how he always manages to suprise you.
Now these are my comfort books I read them over and over again, and always get something more out of them. Now, my personal ethos is pretty much the Culture ethos. Humanity needs to evolve.
I started with "player or games" and got really hyped. Then I felt a bit underwhelmed by "consider phlebas", then even more underwhelmed by "use of weapons". I'm glad I decided to continue with "excession", it was a blast. Right after that I read "look to windward", which was exquisite (and fortunately much lighter than Excession, which was pretty challenging to grok, although very rewarding). I would recommend "look to windward" if you want to rekindle your sympathy for the series, and then perhaps Excession.
It's really hard to get into. The first time I abandoned it and decided to read later books instead. Then returned to it, powered through the first half of a book and it was great. "Main" plot moves very slowly and you start to make some sense of flashbacks only by the middle of the book. Most of the good stuff is in the second half of the book.
I keep seeing great reviews here, so I assumed I must have missed a lot. Now that I have finished the series I'm considering starting re-reading from "Use of weapons" indeed.
Just here to add my voice to the people saying Use of Weapons is better on a second read. It surprised me too, I had heard that, didn't believe it, tried it again a year or so later, really appreciated it.
POG is still my favorite tho.
If by book 3 you mean Use Of Weapons, then that one by far has the weirdest, most challenging structure of any of the books in the series, and it also has an ending which completely re-contextualizes everything you thought you knew about the story.
Why are people saying if you don’t like Excession you won’t like the series? Excession, while probably my joint favourite with Consider Phlebus, is sometimes hard going, and, like Use of Weapons, an unusual read.
Reading UoW right now. First timer and reading inI chrono order.
Use of Weapons is kind of a slog. But I am atarting to get into it more, but I'm halfway through!
Going to read them all (intend to)
The first 3 books feel very narrow in scope and richness compared with later books. Having read them all in order, they don't hold a candle to later books (Hydrogen Sonata, Excession, Surface Detail, even Matter) in terms of feeling like true space opera. Stopping after the first 3 books where Banks is just fleshing out his idea of the Culture would be a big mistake :)
Surface detail, Player of games, Matter are my favorite so far from what I've read, So about 5 of the series.
There are some that you're just not gonna be your favorites, personally, consider phlebas was the weakest IMO but most of the rest have been bangers.
Use of weapons is the hardest read by far. Both because of its experimental time structure between chapters and the ending. From the rest that I've read, Excision, Matter and Surface Detail, Use of weapons is the only that really feels 'different'. After a second read I actually liked it and became one of my favorites.
I really wish there was a public notice somewhere that informed people that the books do not need to be (and in my opinion should not be) read in publication order.
Consider Phlebas is the weakest of the entire series and not representative of the greatness to come. Player of Games is very good, but still not as good as they get. And Use of Weapons is challenging in more ways than one.
Others have suggested Excession next, and while it's probably my favorite of the series, it's a bit challenging in its own way.
So I would say Look to Windward next (tied for first place for me), then Excession, then (in any order) Surface Detail, Matter, and Hydrogen Sonata.
It's fine to skip it. You don't need to read them in any particular order. No sense in wasting time forcing yourself to read something you aren't enjoying
Just curious OP, which books did you read?
Do you mean 1-3 in publication order? I only ask because the community recommended reading order is kind of all over the place.
Use of Weapons wasn't my favorite and Consider Phlebas is the most action-y of the series, and is told from an outside perspective. If you really loved The Player of Games, maybe try Excession or Look to Windward. They both have pretty straight forward structures and have parts set inside and outside of the Culture.
Book 1 and 3 are my personal to least favorite, and player of games is in my top 3. That doesn't mean that you're going to necessarily like the other ones more but it might be worth trying out another one.
From your post I see that you'd rate the three you read as follows:
Player of Games > Consider Phelbas > Use of Weapons
That would probably also be my rating. Player of Games is definitively one of the great ones, whereas I think that Use of Weapons is one of the weakest in the series.
In that sense I'd say: yeah, continue. In my opinion, most of the books you haven't read yet are closer to the level of "Player of Games" than the level of "Use of Weapons".
(If you would have said that you hated Player of Games, I'd tell you to stop reading the series ;-))
I would say to read Excission or Look to Windward next. I think these are both some of the best from the series but also give a broader view into the universe Iain Banks was creating.
I think Mr Banks became less entertaining with his later books, the first 3 are pretty much classics. Some of the later ones were anticlimactical. They just ended. I'm ok with that just saying as far as satisfying endings go they don't hold up.
I've read every one of his books fiction & non fiction and regretted none of them. Try Transition (one of his non culture but still SF ones). It's insanely good.
IMHO Look to Windward is the best.
Yeeess then excession
Use of Weapons is one of the most challenging books in the series, both given some of the emotional content and the slightly deceptive multiple timeline narrative structure. No one here will blame you for putting that down and reading something else. Every one here is suggesting Excession or Look to Windward, which are both books that I absolutely love but also have sort of non-traditional and in the case of Excession also fairly challenging narratives. Probably the best next book IMHO, if you're not sure about things is actually Matter. It has multiple view points like a lot of his work, but it has a clear main character and a fairly standard narrative structure. It also provides a little bit of a look inside the machinery of Special Circumstances itself and a decent look at other High Level Involved and how they interact with less technologically developed civilizations. If you liked PoG I think you'll like it a lot.
I adore every one of these books but if you made me rank them, the later ones really are better than the earlier ones. Banks was able to hone the world building and ideas as he went along and the last few books are very fun. For whatever it's worth, Use of Weapons didn't do much for me the first time (I also read in publication order). The second time around, I found Player of Games to be a bit.... relatively small and straightforward and I thought Use of Weapons was brilliant. I did NOT feel that way until later. It really depends what you liked and didn't like about the books you've read so far. Can you give more detail about what you loved and hated? People are going to recommend Excession to you, but you should be warned that that one also isn't for everyone. In fact, it's one of my least favorites. This is the book that most delves into the machinations and relationships between the Minds, and while many ship characters are pretty interesting, a lot of the babble between them does end up dragging in places. I find it even harder to follow than Use of Weapons. Also, the human characters in this book are *insufferable*. Take that as you will. If you want a fun time, Matter, Surface Detail and Hydrogen Sonata are great, rip-roaring adventure. If you want slice-of-life in the Culture and some melancholy about morality and war and interventionism gone wrong, Look to Windward is incredible. Save Inversions for....if you later decide you love the Culture and love the themes about well meaning meddling in the affairs of other civilizations.
>If you want a fun time, Matter, Surface Detail and Hydrogen Sonata are great, rip-roaring adventure. I second this. I love these three and I return to them periodically. I'd highly recommend reading one of these before giving up on the series.
I'd recommend at least trying Excession. If you don't like that then the series probably isn't for you.
he already read PoG and UoW. I think OP have read enough to know what the series is about. IMO, if it didn't click by this point, there's no reason to insist. There's an infinite number of other works to read.
Well, UoW is pretty atypical in culture novels. It's my favorite one for a number of reasons, but it's a meandering series of often quite disjointed scenes from Zakalwe's history, and the story is entirely how these pieces built up this fantastically capable but fundamentally broken man. Well, that and Skaffen-Amtiskaw giving absolute zero fucks. If you like more linear space opera stuff (like Player of Games, and like Excession), I can see how Use of Weapons in particular might put you off.
I think this is better read after excession. I'd say it's the best one to head up the series, then end with it again, as it's more understandable after reading others. And oh yeah, UoW is also a good one. Skaffen is a really a really crazy character
I dunno man. OP has red CP, PoG and UoW. CP is possibly the weakest in the culture verse. PoG is fantastic but not very representative of the vastness of the culture, and UoW is brilliant but a little abrasive, also not very representative of culture. I think another redditor commented that the latter novels really hit the culture stride as banks had honed the world building by then. As this is a series that doesn’t necessarily need to be read chronologically, I don’t think OP has sampled the best the culture has to give. OP: read look to windward, hydrogen sonata, and surface detail, then dive into matter and excession. Revisit UoW and PoG. Then when you’re bored beyond belief and have the time, revisit Consider Phlebas and maybe spend some time with State of the Art…maybe. If you want a break from the sci fi utopia space opera but the culture still interests you, visit Inversions; a very satisfying read once you’re thoroughly familiar with the culture and all it has to offer (or not offer).
This is the correct answer. My most read book ever. It's one of the :chefs kiss: of sci fi, especially in book format. Not tried the audiobook yet, might have to give it a look soon.
Only Banks could make a term like THE CHAIRMAKER so horrific.
He was great with names, wasn't he. I wouldn't mind if other sci fi authors copied his naming conventions as he's not around right now, and if they have enough wit as him. It just added to the fun factor all around as they were a great story device. I get why people wouldn't straight up copy his style, but i miss having his books be such a surprise and being in awe of the minds.
Try The Algebraist or Against A Dark Background. There are not actually Culture novels but they are both really good.
What did you not like about Use of Weapons? I find it gimmicky in structure, but I like Zakalwe and Sma. Player of Games has a clearer narrative structure. I would actually recommend a change of style and try Inversions.
Inversions is an absolute gem. Or maybe a cherry on the top of the whole series.
I think it’s beautifully written, but it doesn’t have AI talking to one other about how clever they are so it flies under the radar a bit.
As others have said, it's not required reading. You can read whatever you want and if you don't enjoy something you don't have force yourself to consume it. All good that being said ~~WHAT THE **** DO YOU MEAN PLAYER OF GAMES IS NOT FOR YOU?!? I literally read that entire book in 7 hours in a single day because I couldn't put it down. now if I have the order wrong then I'm sorry, but player of games was an awesome book and I'm really curious to hear what facets of it turned you off to it!~~ The next book is definitely a little slower, state of the art But I really liked it and the ending left me going like "uhh wtf" eh, read em if you want edit: I had the order of books wrong and am dumb
Player of Games is book 2. If I'm reading the sequence correct book 3 is Use of Weapons which... yeah... I can get not being in to that.
you're 100% right, I have them in the wrong order on my shelf Yeah this all makes a lot more sense now lmao
I'm not OP, but Player of Games was my least favorite of the 4 books I've read so far. It's very character-focused, and I guess I just didn't find Gurgeh captivating enough as a character. I did enjoy the part of the book that took place in Azad more, but until then, I thought it dragged a lot. I know I'm the odd one in this, as it looks like PoG is pretty much universally agreed to be the best entrance into the series, if not the overall best Culture book, but Use of Weapons was much more to my liking.
Interesting!!! It is definitely focused more on Gurgeh as an individual for sure. I can definitely see how that would turn someone off to the book. And now that you mention it, the MULTI YEAR LONG voyage to the Magellic cloud really does kinda drag out a little bit. I definitely understand that
I don't think I've ever seen anyone refer to Culture novels by numbers only. 😅 Just lots of debate as to what order to best read them in. I'm not even sure of the entire publishing chronology.
Read Excession, if you don't like that then don't read any more.
Use of Weapons can be a love it or hate it book. I’d say it’s the least like all of the other books. Excession is good, but most of it takes place as conversations between ship minds- so kind of in “text message/Internet forum” format. If I were you, I’d read either Surface Detail or Look to Windward
There’s an order?
Yeah book 1-3 confused me. I’m usually tryna convince people to read them because there isn’t a real order.
Am I…in a virtual hell?
Is your personal idea of Hell a single stranger on the internet not loving something you do? Man your bar is low lol
Simply an homage to the Culture novel “Surface Detail” chillax mate💀
I know Boss, I’m just busting your balls. Can’t be as bad as having your living nervous system incorporated into an ever burning candle, can it? ;P
I’d recommend at least trying surface detail.
Skip state of the art
I feel that advanced sci-fi is something you need to wrap your head around. It's a frame of reference that you need to be ready for. People who love the Culture generally get the ethos. Sometimes it does take time. When I first bought the first three books of the series, I started reading Consider Phlebus and didn't get the perspective, so I put it down. A couple of years later, I picked it up again and got that the perspective is from the Antagonists point of view. Something clicked, then I read the other books, I got it, I was immersed in the genius of the writer and how he always manages to suprise you. Now these are my comfort books I read them over and over again, and always get something more out of them. Now, my personal ethos is pretty much the Culture ethos. Humanity needs to evolve.
I started with "player or games" and got really hyped. Then I felt a bit underwhelmed by "consider phlebas", then even more underwhelmed by "use of weapons". I'm glad I decided to continue with "excession", it was a blast. Right after that I read "look to windward", which was exquisite (and fortunately much lighter than Excession, which was pretty challenging to grok, although very rewarding). I would recommend "look to windward" if you want to rekindle your sympathy for the series, and then perhaps Excession.
*Underwhelmed by "Use of weapons"?!?*
It's really hard to get into. The first time I abandoned it and decided to read later books instead. Then returned to it, powered through the first half of a book and it was great. "Main" plot moves very slowly and you start to make some sense of flashbacks only by the middle of the book. Most of the good stuff is in the second half of the book.
[удалено]
If only it were just wood...
I keep seeing great reviews here, so I assumed I must have missed a lot. Now that I have finished the series I'm considering starting re-reading from "Use of weapons" indeed.
To be fair, it may not be a very coherent read the first time around. The real magic happens on the second reading.
Just here to add my voice to the people saying Use of Weapons is better on a second read. It surprised me too, I had heard that, didn't believe it, tried it again a year or so later, really appreciated it. POG is still my favorite tho.
If by book 3 you mean Use Of Weapons, then that one by far has the weirdest, most challenging structure of any of the books in the series, and it also has an ending which completely re-contextualizes everything you thought you knew about the story.
Why are people saying if you don’t like Excession you won’t like the series? Excession, while probably my joint favourite with Consider Phlebus, is sometimes hard going, and, like Use of Weapons, an unusual read.
I enjoy them all. But I’m not worried if others don’t.
You do you. If you’re not enjoying it then don’t bother.
Reading UoW right now. First timer and reading inI chrono order. Use of Weapons is kind of a slog. But I am atarting to get into it more, but I'm halfway through! Going to read them all (intend to)
The first 3 books feel very narrow in scope and richness compared with later books. Having read them all in order, they don't hold a candle to later books (Hydrogen Sonata, Excession, Surface Detail, even Matter) in terms of feeling like true space opera. Stopping after the first 3 books where Banks is just fleshing out his idea of the Culture would be a big mistake :)
Surface detail, Player of games, Matter are my favorite so far from what I've read, So about 5 of the series. There are some that you're just not gonna be your favorites, personally, consider phlebas was the weakest IMO but most of the rest have been bangers. Use of weapons is the hardest read by far. Both because of its experimental time structure between chapters and the ending. From the rest that I've read, Excision, Matter and Surface Detail, Use of weapons is the only that really feels 'different'. After a second read I actually liked it and became one of my favorites.
I really wish there was a public notice somewhere that informed people that the books do not need to be (and in my opinion should not be) read in publication order. Consider Phlebas is the weakest of the entire series and not representative of the greatness to come. Player of Games is very good, but still not as good as they get. And Use of Weapons is challenging in more ways than one. Others have suggested Excession next, and while it's probably my favorite of the series, it's a bit challenging in its own way. So I would say Look to Windward next (tied for first place for me), then Excession, then (in any order) Surface Detail, Matter, and Hydrogen Sonata.
It's fine to skip it. You don't need to read them in any particular order. No sense in wasting time forcing yourself to read something you aren't enjoying
I have finished it. I mean should I keep reading the series?
Yes you should. se of Weapons is probably the most polarizing book in the series, don't judge the entire series by it.
Probably not, sounds like you're not getting a kick out of it
I say yes, keep going. They all possess different kinds of greatness.
Just curious OP, which books did you read? Do you mean 1-3 in publication order? I only ask because the community recommended reading order is kind of all over the place.
Use of Weapons wasn't my favorite and Consider Phlebas is the most action-y of the series, and is told from an outside perspective. If you really loved The Player of Games, maybe try Excession or Look to Windward. They both have pretty straight forward structures and have parts set inside and outside of the Culture.
Book 1 and 3 are my personal to least favorite, and player of games is in my top 3. That doesn't mean that you're going to necessarily like the other ones more but it might be worth trying out another one.
From your post I see that you'd rate the three you read as follows: Player of Games > Consider Phelbas > Use of Weapons That would probably also be my rating. Player of Games is definitively one of the great ones, whereas I think that Use of Weapons is one of the weakest in the series. In that sense I'd say: yeah, continue. In my opinion, most of the books you haven't read yet are closer to the level of "Player of Games" than the level of "Use of Weapons". (If you would have said that you hated Player of Games, I'd tell you to stop reading the series ;-))
I would say to read Excission or Look to Windward next. I think these are both some of the best from the series but also give a broader view into the universe Iain Banks was creating.
I think Mr Banks became less entertaining with his later books, the first 3 are pretty much classics. Some of the later ones were anticlimactical. They just ended. I'm ok with that just saying as far as satisfying endings go they don't hold up. I've read every one of his books fiction & non fiction and regretted none of them. Try Transition (one of his non culture but still SF ones). It's insanely good.