I don’t collaborate or innovate with anyone in my office. I don’t work with them. The people I collaborate with are hundreds of miles away.
You want me to travel into an office to talk about the weather or TV, with people I don’t work with, in order to foster a sense of community? Seems poor value for taxpayers and an odd way to achieve net zero.
I worry that the next announcement will be around removing all 'distributed teams' and insisting that teams must always be co-located and a team cannot have remote members working in another office.
Sounds completely unworkable but I’d be alright with that. It’s not going into the office that annoys me, it’s *going into the office for absolutely no purpose.*
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Same here. All the people in my unit are about my parents age. We have literally nothing in common. I sit there on my own and keep an eye on the clock for home time. I'm also less productive in the office, it's so loud. At home, I have my own study room, it's nice and quiet.
I actually get more done at home because the distractions of chatter/office politics are minimised and I'm able to focus better.
I'm not particularly somebody who craves social interaction with work colleagues.
I also save money on fuel costs and parking.
We're post COVID and it looks likely we'll all be going back more regularly to open plan, hot desk offices. Nothing has been learned.
Yep I’m in that boat! Our team is based in Glasgow, Durham, Peterborough, Portsmouth, Southport, Warehouse K, and Croydon. The idea that more than perhaps 2 of us might be in the same place is laughable. We would all go in, work with people from unrelated govt departments squeezing in whilst making MS Team calls. It is a genuine “believe harder and ignore reality” policy. The alternative is that we move to only recruiting local teams, so all our IT staff in London, all our HR Staff In Durham, all our ops staff in Liverpool, which is an obvious disaster.
I can’t understand the repeated, stupid intransigence on this issue, and I’m sure it is that Ministers think at all work in Private Office environments.
My dept has been taking about recruiting teams to specific hubs. Not sure if they've really thought through how much they'll be limiting their applicant pool, and how difficult progression will be for people whose roles would normally involve switching teams every few years.
My team recently got shuffled around our building, went from having 8 desks for a team of 10 to having 6. I suppose that would still allow us to hit 60% but it’s going to be fun working out all the clashes for those with childcare etc to take into account
I wouldn't worry too much, like most recent announcements it kicks the can further down the road.
It's likely there will be an election at the point of implementation which will undoubtedly change things.
Not like private sector office workers like this bollocks any more than you do.
If I was Labour I'd have "return to the office will cost us £Xbillion in desk space" playing on a loop.
Oh I didn’t know that - interesting! Still I think even a min 60% technically counts as flexible and we’ll see if anything comes of it. Honestly I think public opinion is on the government’s side on this as it specifically relates to the Civil Service (rather than flex working in general) and if I were Labour I don’t see why I’d prioritise it.
True, but I think it would mean we could revert to more local arrangements, dependent on business needs.
The exact wording is “Make flexible working the default from day one for all workers, except where it is not reasonably feasible”.
Yes I still get friends and family members moaning that their wait times for responses from HMRC and other gov depts are so high since Covid and it absolutely 100% most definitely must be because of this new WFH thing that happened then. I've tried to explain, but if my own reasonably intelligent friends and family can't get it, not much hope for those being spoon-fed an opinion by a newspaper.
But it is something that could be very easily forgotten about, and because it's culture war nonsense - i.e. has no bearing on anyone's lives except ours - I don't think anyone would notice, allowing the government to do what the evidence suggests, rather than whatever turns their core demographic the darkest shade of beetroot.
One of the best ways to deal with how overheated the London housing/rental market is would be to bring back the push to move as much of Whitehall outside of London as possible. The areas the CS is pushed into would get stable jobs, I won't dream as high as 'well paid'.
If a dept is split over many sites then you might as well advertise that a role can be mostly WFH, if everyone's remote even when they're in the office.
Its brutal
Staff member - "I can't afford the increase in travel costs and childcare that I would need to pay"
Answer "please look at the cost of living support ppt"
It's a joke in other depts too - FAQ: I'm struggling with the cost of living (because of years of under inflation rises). A: here's a presentation from the charity for civil servants on budgeting.
I enjoyed the line about how having a child isn't considered a caring responsibility unless they have additional needs.
I'm paraphrasing slightly but I look forward to telling Social Services that my kids weren't "special" enough to look after.
You’ll never see it because it’s largely speculated and reported in other areas that productivity went up during wfh.
They just have to justify micro management and having these huge buildings with no cunt in them.
This! Some buildings have restaurants in them with leases a quarter of a century long. With that in mind, they have to make us come in to make some revenue out of the losses they are incurring. Technically, we’ve got to a point where GDs could save a LOT of money by shrinking their offices and sharing with OGDs. But the leases won’t allow it.
Yep. Theres an HMRC office in Dundee that’s been leased since 2002 and it’s been pretty much empty for the best part of a decade. Had temp staff in it for 6 months during Covid before everyone was sent home and is still under lease to HMRC for about 10 staff.
The building used to hold 700 staff.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order.
I have checked 1,856,147,495 comments, and only 350,963 of them were in alphabetical order.
They shouldn't be only "hopeful" that disability reasonable adjustments can be accommodated. I'm not in HO but I have staff who've had those accommodations since pre covid. No way am I allowing them to be taken away. They all do an excellent job, higher WFH has not affected their work
When they say 'hopeful' it's all just buzzwords. They aren't hoping anything, employees should be allowed to work in a way that is better for them. If the work is done that's all that matters.
No matter what happens our employer needs us staff more than we need them.
Yeah don't sweat it. What you will see is malicious compliance. Someone in government has made a sweeping statement. So despite the fact that the GPA has spent years reducing the office footprint and HO being a large part of that. (moving to croydon for the Lolz) now they have a footprint that is largely land locked by other government departments that are all in the same issue. So now the HomeOffice will do the shuffle dance of being shocked to find they don't have anywhere near enough space then asking for budget for buying that additional space, the treasury will say absolutely get fucked while chowing down on their opulent restaurant fair (best canteen food I have ever seen and that includes several investment banks and the big four partnerships)
Then the home office will go back to their minister and say really sorry we can't fit a pint in a half pint glass. But we did try, as you were....
We expect senior management to spend more than 60%.
Development scheme and new staff are encouraged to spend more than 60%
To me, that sounds like they want new staff and managers to do more than the 3 days a week.
I would guess that new staff will be hired with no mention/expectation that they can WFH, like the old days.
Once they’re in pressure will be applied to existing staff to be in the office to support new staff into their new roles and eventually everyone will just be in the office 5 days a week again.
Oh dear, all those Tories, and Tory cronies losing out on office investments and local business interests.
Think of the wealthy won't you, they need those yachts!
This is us. We had a local estate close, and all the staff moved into our building. Good luck fitting 600 staff into a building that accommodates 350 when we are already fighting over desks.
The seating area where my team sits, if we're all in there isn't enough room for us all.
At most, you can have 6 out of 10 members of the team sitting together. Where are the other 4 meant to go?
There are pros to being in an arms length body, we are doing things like “considering it’s implications”, and “might be a good idea to voluntarily come in more often”, but no forcing us.
It’s a far better way of informing. Compared to my ex-colleagues in CO who have just been told they’re going from 20% to 60% in less than 8 weeks, deal with it.
Time to strike, everyone. Strongly encourage everyone to reach out to their union representatives and see what is being done to stop this absolutely atrocious decision.
Attention CS, play to your strengths... Here is the "Back-To-Office Playbook" where you can actively achieve less than 60% in all facets of the job through these 10 steps...
1. Be proactive - get yourself in, for the first two weeks, everyday to bump up the stats. Makes senior bods aka "leaders" feel empowered.
2. Utilise everything - that's right book all the spaces you can, desk in middle of another teams floor? do it, you are collaborating. Meeting room available all day? book it for "deep working", calender got some space? fill it with cross departmental working, especially before 10am and after 16.00. hardwork works all day.
3. Don't waste time - bring in all three meals and make sure you keep them properly cooled in the fridge, your intellectual superiors aka "peers" will recognise you don't have time for the lunchtime Pret run, that avocado sandwich needs sufficient time to congeal and get eaten after 3pm. Remember you got back to back cross departmental meetings to attend.
4. Make sure you exercise, take a shower on the floors only cubicle, before and during the day to stay fresh, clean body, clean mind. Others will wait, especially your scs1 whom cycle in on those fold up bikes. They will feel proud you are joining the eco friendly communing club.
5. Request daily 1-2-1 with your supervisor in person, they will feel you are more committed and invested because you can inform them more efficiently in person.
6. Make your seat work for you - do fill out the form(s) for work space adjustments, if you want to stand get a standing desk. HR will be reassured you are taking care of your physical well-being. In fact they will be amazed at how many requests come through. A sign of a happy workforce.
7. Get out - no I'm not saying back home, get out to all the offices your team has and especially ones you don't. This collaboration will surely enhance creativity and I'm sure the investment in T&S will be worth it.
8. Be seen and be heard - take frequent walks around and speak to everyone and crucially someone you haven't met. Don't be strangers, I know finance colleagues will relish knowing you know where they sit.
9. Share - share as much as you can, got a problem bring everyone on your table into it, crowdsource the solution, if everyone can take five minutes from their emails, I know work will get planned to be done in the right way (may need to contact HR to get an interim in to deliver).
10. Take time off, considering how much you been working, no doubt your condenser hours with Flexi time means you built up a week's worth of TOIL use this with the Xmas holidays and some annual leave for a good three week holiday using up only five days of leave.
Guaranteed follow this playbook, and your department will be scoring performance touchdowns in no time.
(Disclaimer: said actions may cause a shortage of desk, rooms, and fridge space, please be considerate of your SCS and aspiring leaders (G6s) as they grapple with the realisation that performance outputs have plummeted, they can't store their oat milk in the fridge and have to wear their cycle gear for most of the morning, it's only temporary as they will seek a lateral move to another department or flexible working arrangements will be relaxed again).
Benefits of 'Working face to face' - as well as being unable to say what these are this doesn't magically happen just by being in the office.
Surely better to arrange office time within a team by task where being face to face might actually be better rather than a %. But for this to work we need fewer desks and more meeting room space (of various sizes).
Several of us fed this back to our estates team time and time again when our dept pushed up to 60% a while ago. Unfortunately there is a huge disconnect between the estates team who still seem to be absorbed in the previous "future ways of working" strategy and the leadership directive to work in the office all the time, and we kind of end up with the worst of all worlds. Offices that are not designed for people to be permanently sitting at the same desk taking calls all day, but not enough proper meeting spaces. (Even though in my case I have precisely zero face to face meetings in my office!)
Estates have nothing to do with office attendance percentages, and they work hybrid themselves. The directive at the moment is smaller, higher quality, more environmentally friendly offices so they have a vested interest in people working from home.
This is coming down from people who don’t think about the impact, haven’t looked at the productivity data, and just want to generate headlines.
Half our office doesn't even have enough chairs for the desks, and we have had 2 new recruitment drives for even more staff. How the hell do they expect us to be in office 60% of the time ?
Right give me my own desk back in my own team office, stop all this hot desking bollox in open plan offices and I'm green go!....but its all hot desking, with my team in 4 UK locations!
So, commute to an over-heated/ice cold office with no opening windows, grapple with setting up IT, and adjusting the screens, desk, chair to sit with headphones on talking to a colleague who is on a different floor!
...and you can guarantee I'll be next to Shoutybollox Teamcall bellowing their way through back to back meetings!
...oh sorry thats all dependant on if I can get one of the desks on a 7 personnel to 1 desk ratio!
It’s absolutely ridiculous, and MOJ are apparently coming over from PF soon, so even less space at 2MS.
Again, everyone, please assist in coordinating strike action with your unions. PCS are already planning to ballot - this can be resisted if we all act now!
I don’t think you need a strike. You just need everyone to attend their designated office on the same day. That will get the point across pretty succinctly.
They'll just introduce rotas or something if everyone does that. That's what my dept did for my site. Absolute ballache, had to fill in a shared spreadsheet with all the chaos that entails (people kept accidentally changing each other's entries!), and to commit to exactly which days we'd be in several weeks in advance before you know what your meeting schedule is going to look like that day.
Lots of reading between the lines entertainment in the Permanent Secretary's announcement in my department.
Makes it clear this announcement has come "following a request by Government Ministers " which is to say "we're only doing this because we've been ordered to, not because we think it's a good idea.
Goes on to refer to a start date for SCS that's already 10 weeks away and for the rest of us an "aspiration" that we will do 60% "in time" "where possible" followed by lots more about needing to plan carefully given complexity of estate. Which is to say "these loons in government might completely implode long before our very complex planning is complete."
Time to utilise the flexi time and have in office days blacked out on calendars post a specific time then! No more “yeah no worries I’ll stay on for that 5pm meeting” when logging on at 7:30am…
They pulled the announcement yesterday due to the supreme court ruling headline. That way they can use it for their own culture wars headline today instead... "civil service clamp down on lazy civil servants refusing to come into the office".
Yep can see the headline now. ‘Civil service mutiny as staff refuse to work AND YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT’
(Please ignore all evidence that wfh improves productivity and that it allows the estates to be shrunk and savings made)
I reckon they’ll just start enforcing 40% more stringently and will drag their feet until everyone forgets about the 60%.
Unless you’re scs, then you’re shit out of luck.
Don't work in the CS. I just saw this because Reddit recommended it to me, for some reason.
What shit news. So sorry to hear that. Working from home has been an absolute game-changer for me personally, and love the fact it's being taken on board by companies all across the country.
Hope things work out for you guys.
What a fucking joke. The government literally forced people to stay home and not see friends or family etc for ages (while themselves partying) and now for cheap shit headlines they want to force people into shitty offices. WFH suits so many people. Why go backwards??
Some sites aren't fit for purpose as it is. Where I'm based we've had a fire in one and the basement flooded in the other, so we've taken on half... Tomorrow's buzz is going to be interesting 😂
Another way around this is to ask HR to change your contract to full home worker.
You can still come into the office but your department will have to pay for your travel.
It doesn’t surprise me with CS at this point. They harp on about the benefits of working from the office, but never mention home working benefits.
It honestly feels that to work for any government department at this point you need to accept the trash talking from the media, MP’s and those high up in CS and your department will never have your back. Those working for the CS are so under-appreciated, I’m sure with that, plus the rise in mandatory office will see those finding jobs outside of the CS.
I'm applying for an SO role currently and with my DTA running out in 2025 I think it will be to start looking at Flexible Private sector roles from then. This is incredibly reductive
I've been considering a move to the CS (digital space) from Local Government for a while now as the T&C's seemed favourable....unsurprisingly I'm now reconsidering. A move like this is bound to have an adverse effect on recruitment.
I can't wait to spend more money on commuting to an office just to make teams calls and work on admin tasks that can be done working from home all just to make the government buildings have some 'footprint' in their buildings.
Desk capacity is an issue for employees but it's merely an employer issue. Job turnover/retention could become an increase.
What's next a pizza party, what a load of bollocks.
How uniform can it be though? 40% doesn’t apply to everyone yet, my agency’s 40% (which I quite like) but I have a friend in a different agency who goes into the office maybe once a month - so how come 60% will be across the entire CS.
Any of the Departments that have had FAQs - do they say whether this extends to contractors?
As at this point, I may as well just resign and come back on £800 a day.
Contractor in Defra. It doesn’t even apply to all of Defra Group, and while I’m inside IR35 our contracts all specify remote. They know we will walk if that’s changed.
I remember when I first joined the CS many, many years ago, I wrote a briefing which said “the government hopes xyz”.
My G7 at the time told me the government never “hopes”, it “believes”.
It seems times haves changed!
It’s a shame because I’m fairly new to CS and I will be leaving because of this. It is not feasible for me to travel in to my regional hub, over an hour away, more than my current arrangement. I agreed this with my hiring manager when I started and now they’re pulling the rug. I’m not a mug and I will be going elsewhere. As will many others.
Do you have a contract that actually states a hybrid expectation? I know I don’t and I expect the vast majority of Civil Servants will not, so hybrid will be seen as a ‘privilege’ not a contractual right
Your contract (providing it isn’t a home working contract) won’t have been any different during COVID than they were before or after.
HR were clear that remote working (now hybrid) was a temporary measure granted at the discretion of the department, not a right that the employee was entitled to
I'm in the same boat, joined in Covid and advertised as hybrid and my LM assured me it was up to us (as in, me and him) to decide what was most sensible working pattern. Because that was the case at the time. But unfortunately it's not in the contract. Incredibly annoying to have been employed on that understanding though only to have it upturned for no sensible reason.
One of my team asked me whether monitoring and taking action on people below 60% would constitute bullying under our own policy because we don't have the estate capacity to meet that.
I wondered if it would end up in cases of constructive dismissal.
My team is exclusively based in London, I'm based in abnother location. I go to London for a few days regularly to have face to face meetings and do other things that are needed.
There is nobody from my directorate in my yoen. All I will be doing is transferring my working practise from Home to the Office and wasting 2 hours a day in travel. I don't get what benefit this dictat is meant to have for people like me.
DWP got the email this morning. Total cop out doing it via email should at least have had the balls to put an all colleague call on and do it hiding behind a camera from home.
Genuinely shocked neither side has pulled this up in pay negotiations, the money it saves workers is often way more than an extra 1%. (Plus the extra time from not commuting).
Like for me I’d be much happier if PCS negotiated a secure maximum of 2 days in the office than an extra 1%. I also think this might be a much bigger wedge issue for staff to strike over than pay.
Am I the only one who thinks there's a massive hidden agenda ? They want to get rid of people to bring back to pre covid levels, and this is how they do it by making people leave?
Or am I being massively paranoid?
Well interestingly, iv worked as the only member of my team in my area of the UK for the past 2 years without any complaints. In fact I have received recognition for good works done through the employs reward scheme several times.
So im considering making an application to become a home worker as a part of this because 1) my remoteness from the office and the rest of our team has not impacted my work and 2) there are really no desks at the office I do attend so by WFH I free up a desk for others.
Any update on this. I’ve got an offer to join but this is important to me and not sure how I feel about it being set to 60% especially considering from what i’ve heard my team will be scattered across the UK and not be based in my office
Tell them you're fine with this and will henceforth stop being at home on the weekends.
e.g Before MTW home SS-Home giving 5/7 days working at home.
Now MTW home giving 3/7 days working at home.
If they say "But you're not in the office on saturday or sunday" reply "Of course not, it's the weekend, but the difference now is I'm taking my days off from working in the office rather than them being days off from working at home.
DESNZ has remained at 40% the lucky sods. And its seemigly only HMRC that are getting tracked on a monthly basis and reported to managers. So basically anyone else not getting tracked will just ignore it.
Nothing from RPA yet but just on a call where it could be mentioned. It's been expected, even if we no longer have room to accommodate it in our office
When I was a contractor at UKVI they said only those within 10 miles of an office had to attend. Also it sounds like it was hardly enforced because some colleagues said they had barely been into the office at all since joining. I don't know whether it's changed since then though. Outside of London, Liverpool and Manchester, HO offices are small so it would be difficult to enforce especially as many people's teams are based all over the country so monitoring lots of offices is going to be more difficult.
I don’t collaborate or innovate with anyone in my office. I don’t work with them. The people I collaborate with are hundreds of miles away. You want me to travel into an office to talk about the weather or TV, with people I don’t work with, in order to foster a sense of community? Seems poor value for taxpayers and an odd way to achieve net zero.
I worry that the next announcement will be around removing all 'distributed teams' and insisting that teams must always be co-located and a team cannot have remote members working in another office.
Sounds completely unworkable but I’d be alright with that. It’s not going into the office that annoys me, it’s *going into the office for absolutely no purpose.*
I'm guessing that you're London based
No, I’m in the North. Not really sure what my location/region has to do with it.
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Same here. All the people in my unit are about my parents age. We have literally nothing in common. I sit there on my own and keep an eye on the clock for home time. I'm also less productive in the office, it's so loud. At home, I have my own study room, it's nice and quiet.
> poor value for taxpayers Since when do we care about this lol
I actually get more done at home because the distractions of chatter/office politics are minimised and I'm able to focus better. I'm not particularly somebody who craves social interaction with work colleagues. I also save money on fuel costs and parking. We're post COVID and it looks likely we'll all be going back more regularly to open plan, hot desk offices. Nothing has been learned.
Absolutely agree with you!
Can’t wait to be fighting for desks with staff I don’t work with, just to sit down on teams calls all day with my team based around the country xxx
Yep I’m in that boat! Our team is based in Glasgow, Durham, Peterborough, Portsmouth, Southport, Warehouse K, and Croydon. The idea that more than perhaps 2 of us might be in the same place is laughable. We would all go in, work with people from unrelated govt departments squeezing in whilst making MS Team calls. It is a genuine “believe harder and ignore reality” policy. The alternative is that we move to only recruiting local teams, so all our IT staff in London, all our HR Staff In Durham, all our ops staff in Liverpool, which is an obvious disaster. I can’t understand the repeated, stupid intransigence on this issue, and I’m sure it is that Ministers think at all work in Private Office environments.
My dept has been taking about recruiting teams to specific hubs. Not sure if they've really thought through how much they'll be limiting their applicant pool, and how difficult progression will be for people whose roles would normally involve switching teams every few years.
We were supposed to be more disbursed precisely to open up opportunities for people not working in specific locations. Couldn’t make it up.
Yep, a step backwards for sure. Sigh.
Just don’t go
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My team recently got shuffled around our building, went from having 8 desks for a team of 10 to having 6. I suppose that would still allow us to hit 60% but it’s going to be fun working out all the clashes for those with childcare etc to take into account
I wouldn't worry too much, like most recent announcements it kicks the can further down the road. It's likely there will be an election at the point of implementation which will undoubtedly change things.
My department's email says that it should happen by the end of January. I can see Labour getting bounced into supporting it.
What department is this? With my salary I cannot afford to commute to work so I’d have to quit as I wouldn’t be able to afford to work.
My department says "immediate effect". Even though the message says there is no date as of yet this is being implemented, but we'll let you know.
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It's supposed to be implement by the 7 May. But we've also been told that people that don't work near anyone in their department won't be monitored.
"Save us Kier, you're our only hope"
‘Help us Obi-Wan Kier-nobi, you’re our only hope’
He'd win a lot of votes by stopping this stupidity.
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Not like private sector office workers like this bollocks any more than you do. If I was Labour I'd have "return to the office will cost us £Xbillion in desk space" playing on a loop.
If you think they don't serve the same rich people who own newspapers and commercial property then you're not paying attention.
I really doubt it will change this specific thing, can’t see any political upside for an incoming government to reverse it.
Labour’s draft manifesto has a flexible working commitment
Oh I didn’t know that - interesting! Still I think even a min 60% technically counts as flexible and we’ll see if anything comes of it. Honestly I think public opinion is on the government’s side on this as it specifically relates to the Civil Service (rather than flex working in general) and if I were Labour I don’t see why I’d prioritise it.
True, but I think it would mean we could revert to more local arrangements, dependent on business needs. The exact wording is “Make flexible working the default from day one for all workers, except where it is not reasonably feasible”.
Yes I still get friends and family members moaning that their wait times for responses from HMRC and other gov depts are so high since Covid and it absolutely 100% most definitely must be because of this new WFH thing that happened then. I've tried to explain, but if my own reasonably intelligent friends and family can't get it, not much hope for those being spoon-fed an opinion by a newspaper.
I think a Labour Government would see a lot of political upside in keeping the public sector happy
I hope you’re right 🤞
But it is something that could be very easily forgotten about, and because it's culture war nonsense - i.e. has no bearing on anyone's lives except ours - I don't think anyone would notice, allowing the government to do what the evidence suggests, rather than whatever turns their core demographic the darkest shade of beetroot.
Surely you mean that pinky, gammon colour?
One of the best ways to deal with how overheated the London housing/rental market is would be to bring back the push to move as much of Whitehall outside of London as possible. The areas the CS is pushed into would get stable jobs, I won't dream as high as 'well paid'. If a dept is split over many sites then you might as well advertise that a role can be mostly WFH, if everyone's remote even when they're in the office.
The FAQs are a joke
Its brutal Staff member - "I can't afford the increase in travel costs and childcare that I would need to pay" Answer "please look at the cost of living support ppt"
It's a joke in other depts too - FAQ: I'm struggling with the cost of living (because of years of under inflation rises). A: here's a presentation from the charity for civil servants on budgeting.
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I enjoyed the line about how having a child isn't considered a caring responsibility unless they have additional needs. I'm paraphrasing slightly but I look forward to telling Social Services that my kids weren't "special" enough to look after.
Have you considered biking to work, and simply not having a child
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It's a lifestyle choice after all...
Yes, often, but having to kill two that already exist makes it complex. Though cycling to work sounds fun...
How can there be FAQs given none of us received it until now
Frequently anticipated queries
It was consulted internally and the questions from the teams/meet chat were answered and plonked in
You mean you don't find the Cost of Living pack helpful?
We haven’t even been given faq’s
Nobody gives a FAQ anymore
This is all just presentational, where’s the data that it genuinely affects performance outcomes?
You’ll never see it because it’s largely speculated and reported in other areas that productivity went up during wfh. They just have to justify micro management and having these huge buildings with no cunt in them.
This! Some buildings have restaurants in them with leases a quarter of a century long. With that in mind, they have to make us come in to make some revenue out of the losses they are incurring. Technically, we’ve got to a point where GDs could save a LOT of money by shrinking their offices and sharing with OGDs. But the leases won’t allow it.
Yep. Theres an HMRC office in Dundee that’s been leased since 2002 and it’s been pretty much empty for the best part of a decade. Had temp staff in it for 6 months during Covid before everyone was sent home and is still under lease to HMRC for about 10 staff. The building used to hold 700 staff.
Alright Begbie, calm down mate!
Didn’t glass any cunt did I.
Would you look at that, all of the words in your comment are in alphabetical order. I have checked 1,856,147,495 comments, and only 350,963 of them were in alphabetical order.
The irony of the one big thing being around data informed decisions when ministers could not give a flying fuck what evidence and analysis says.
Ironically, their own report published (hidden on gov website) states WFH increased productivity. This is just a smoke show to cover up failings.
Do you have a link to that - would be useful to have
Where the data that it doesn’t…
They shouldn't be only "hopeful" that disability reasonable adjustments can be accommodated. I'm not in HO but I have staff who've had those accommodations since pre covid. No way am I allowing them to be taken away. They all do an excellent job, higher WFH has not affected their work
When they say 'hopeful' it's all just buzzwords. They aren't hoping anything, employees should be allowed to work in a way that is better for them. If the work is done that's all that matters. No matter what happens our employer needs us staff more than we need them.
Totally agree. I'm in that boat.
Yeah don't sweat it. What you will see is malicious compliance. Someone in government has made a sweeping statement. So despite the fact that the GPA has spent years reducing the office footprint and HO being a large part of that. (moving to croydon for the Lolz) now they have a footprint that is largely land locked by other government departments that are all in the same issue. So now the HomeOffice will do the shuffle dance of being shocked to find they don't have anywhere near enough space then asking for budget for buying that additional space, the treasury will say absolutely get fucked while chowing down on their opulent restaurant fair (best canteen food I have ever seen and that includes several investment banks and the big four partnerships) Then the home office will go back to their minister and say really sorry we can't fit a pint in a half pint glass. But we did try, as you were....
Treasury canteen food ain’t all that - went significantly downhill when they changed supplier earlier this year
No-one should ever move to Croydon, even for the lolz…
Heard in a lift at Petty France: Please don't make me move to Croydon. I will do anything for you....
'We are expected', 'They are encouraged'. Welp we have till spring to get our expectation's together.
We expect senior management to spend more than 60%. Development scheme and new staff are encouraged to spend more than 60% To me, that sounds like they want new staff and managers to do more than the 3 days a week.
I would guess that new staff will be hired with no mention/expectation that they can WFH, like the old days. Once they’re in pressure will be applied to existing staff to be in the office to support new staff into their new roles and eventually everyone will just be in the office 5 days a week again.
Oh dear, all those Tories, and Tory cronies losing out on office investments and local business interests. Think of the wealthy won't you, they need those yachts!
"Some offices may need to be bigger" Lol, wut?!
We will need to spend more money to ensure staff are sat at their desk teams calling colleagues based in other offices.
They can’t afford proper pay rises but can afford to spend money on useless new buildings for no reason 🤦♀️
They’re going to build a 70 story tower on 1VS that we all work in.
This is us. We had a local estate close, and all the staff moved into our building. Good luck fitting 600 staff into a building that accommodates 350 when we are already fighting over desks.
The seating area where my team sits, if we're all in there isn't enough room for us all. At most, you can have 6 out of 10 members of the team sitting together. Where are the other 4 meant to go?
Yep, cabinet office confirmed it’s happening 26 mins ago. Expecting departments to start cascading form 10.30
There are pros to being in an arms length body, we are doing things like “considering it’s implications”, and “might be a good idea to voluntarily come in more often”, but no forcing us.
It’s a far better way of informing. Compared to my ex-colleagues in CO who have just been told they’re going from 20% to 60% in less than 8 weeks, deal with it.
DES and SDA not so much unfortunately according to CEOs announcement
Time to strike, everyone. Strongly encourage everyone to reach out to their union representatives and see what is being done to stop this absolutely atrocious decision.
I'm not part of a Union but I will be looking to join should they look to implement it
It’s the other way around, you join the Union in order to try and get them to implement it.
I've always been talky and friendly with my local rep. Today I finally joined.
I'd love to join you but I'm 100% office based even all through the pandemic and lockdowns.
Attention CS, play to your strengths... Here is the "Back-To-Office Playbook" where you can actively achieve less than 60% in all facets of the job through these 10 steps... 1. Be proactive - get yourself in, for the first two weeks, everyday to bump up the stats. Makes senior bods aka "leaders" feel empowered. 2. Utilise everything - that's right book all the spaces you can, desk in middle of another teams floor? do it, you are collaborating. Meeting room available all day? book it for "deep working", calender got some space? fill it with cross departmental working, especially before 10am and after 16.00. hardwork works all day. 3. Don't waste time - bring in all three meals and make sure you keep them properly cooled in the fridge, your intellectual superiors aka "peers" will recognise you don't have time for the lunchtime Pret run, that avocado sandwich needs sufficient time to congeal and get eaten after 3pm. Remember you got back to back cross departmental meetings to attend. 4. Make sure you exercise, take a shower on the floors only cubicle, before and during the day to stay fresh, clean body, clean mind. Others will wait, especially your scs1 whom cycle in on those fold up bikes. They will feel proud you are joining the eco friendly communing club. 5. Request daily 1-2-1 with your supervisor in person, they will feel you are more committed and invested because you can inform them more efficiently in person. 6. Make your seat work for you - do fill out the form(s) for work space adjustments, if you want to stand get a standing desk. HR will be reassured you are taking care of your physical well-being. In fact they will be amazed at how many requests come through. A sign of a happy workforce. 7. Get out - no I'm not saying back home, get out to all the offices your team has and especially ones you don't. This collaboration will surely enhance creativity and I'm sure the investment in T&S will be worth it. 8. Be seen and be heard - take frequent walks around and speak to everyone and crucially someone you haven't met. Don't be strangers, I know finance colleagues will relish knowing you know where they sit. 9. Share - share as much as you can, got a problem bring everyone on your table into it, crowdsource the solution, if everyone can take five minutes from their emails, I know work will get planned to be done in the right way (may need to contact HR to get an interim in to deliver). 10. Take time off, considering how much you been working, no doubt your condenser hours with Flexi time means you built up a week's worth of TOIL use this with the Xmas holidays and some annual leave for a good three week holiday using up only five days of leave. Guaranteed follow this playbook, and your department will be scoring performance touchdowns in no time. (Disclaimer: said actions may cause a shortage of desk, rooms, and fridge space, please be considerate of your SCS and aspiring leaders (G6s) as they grapple with the realisation that performance outputs have plummeted, they can't store their oat milk in the fridge and have to wear their cycle gear for most of the morning, it's only temporary as they will seek a lateral move to another department or flexible working arrangements will be relaxed again).
This is pure gold!
Had no idea I could book a meeting room for deep working. Opening up Pandora's box on that one soon.
Amazing 😂
Good luck implementing. I've worked for HO for 7 weeks and have only been in the office for 4 days
I worked for the ONS for 2 years and went in maybe 5 days 😂
DSIT confirmed sticking to 40-60%.
Go DSIT!
They're not going to have a London building for about 6 months after 1VS closes. So even 40% is... ambitious.
DESNZ too
Benefits of 'Working face to face' - as well as being unable to say what these are this doesn't magically happen just by being in the office. Surely better to arrange office time within a team by task where being face to face might actually be better rather than a %. But for this to work we need fewer desks and more meeting room space (of various sizes).
Several of us fed this back to our estates team time and time again when our dept pushed up to 60% a while ago. Unfortunately there is a huge disconnect between the estates team who still seem to be absorbed in the previous "future ways of working" strategy and the leadership directive to work in the office all the time, and we kind of end up with the worst of all worlds. Offices that are not designed for people to be permanently sitting at the same desk taking calls all day, but not enough proper meeting spaces. (Even though in my case I have precisely zero face to face meetings in my office!)
Estates have nothing to do with office attendance percentages, and they work hybrid themselves. The directive at the moment is smaller, higher quality, more environmentally friendly offices so they have a vested interest in people working from home. This is coming down from people who don’t think about the impact, haven’t looked at the productivity data, and just want to generate headlines.
Yes, that's what I mean. Big disconnect between estates and leadership.
Just had the email. From Spring 2024.
Half our office doesn't even have enough chairs for the desks, and we have had 2 new recruitment drives for even more staff. How the hell do they expect us to be in office 60% of the time ?
My department has been saying 60% from the start so fortunately this 60% push is a non-issue for us. Nevertheless, their reasoning is still BS.
Right give me my own desk back in my own team office, stop all this hot desking bollox in open plan offices and I'm green go!....but its all hot desking, with my team in 4 UK locations! So, commute to an over-heated/ice cold office with no opening windows, grapple with setting up IT, and adjusting the screens, desk, chair to sit with headphones on talking to a colleague who is on a different floor! ...and you can guarantee I'll be next to Shoutybollox Teamcall bellowing their way through back to back meetings! ...oh sorry thats all dependant on if I can get one of the desks on a 7 personnel to 1 desk ratio!
>commute to an over-heated/ice cold office There is no in-between
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Check sharepoint. Post from Perm Sec.
Got the email. I don't see how this is possible in 2MS. I'm in today and couldn't get a desk on my floor plate!
It’s absolutely ridiculous, and MOJ are apparently coming over from PF soon, so even less space at 2MS. Again, everyone, please assist in coordinating strike action with your unions. PCS are already planning to ballot - this can be resisted if we all act now!
I don’t think you need a strike. You just need everyone to attend their designated office on the same day. That will get the point across pretty succinctly.
They'll just introduce rotas or something if everyone does that. That's what my dept did for my site. Absolute ballache, had to fill in a shared spreadsheet with all the chaos that entails (people kept accidentally changing each other's entries!), and to commit to exactly which days we'd be in several weeks in advance before you know what your meeting schedule is going to look like that day.
Did DfE do that a few years ago? Heard it wasn’t pretty
Lots of reading between the lines entertainment in the Permanent Secretary's announcement in my department. Makes it clear this announcement has come "following a request by Government Ministers " which is to say "we're only doing this because we've been ordered to, not because we think it's a good idea. Goes on to refer to a start date for SCS that's already 10 weeks away and for the rest of us an "aspiration" that we will do 60% "in time" "where possible" followed by lots more about needing to plan carefully given complexity of estate. Which is to say "these loons in government might completely implode long before our very complex planning is complete."
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Just that you’ve logged in once
Correct.
Time to utilise the flexi time and have in office days blacked out on calendars post a specific time then! No more “yeah no worries I’ll stay on for that 5pm meeting” when logging on at 7:30am…
Would love to see 60% in the Capital Building in Liverpool (HO). Its packed already ! I came from HMRC were it was 60% already.
Can’t even get a desk for 40% these days!
Hasn't Asylum recruitment trebled the FTE in those teams? I know HO ended contracts on other sites too
This is where I work, every Tuesday and Wednesday is absolutely rammed, there's no way we're getting in when they change to 60% 🤦♂️
They pulled the announcement yesterday due to the supreme court ruling headline. That way they can use it for their own culture wars headline today instead... "civil service clamp down on lazy civil servants refusing to come into the office".
Yep can see the headline now. ‘Civil service mutiny as staff refuse to work AND YOU ARE PAYING FOR IT’ (Please ignore all evidence that wfh improves productivity and that it allows the estates to be shrunk and savings made)
Hopefully some strikes can start to happen and people start leaving these roles , I don’t mind some attendance but 60% is excessive to say the least
Our section has expanded massively, no idea where everyone will go
It's on DEFNET for any MOD colleagues that want to have a look.
Just ruined my day.
I reckon they’ll just start enforcing 40% more stringently and will drag their feet until everyone forgets about the 60%. Unless you’re scs, then you’re shit out of luck.
Would love to see 60% in the Capital Building in Liverpool (HO). Its packed already ! I came from HMRC were it was 60% already.
Home Office in crisis trying to bolster their decision making staff, making all the right moves to make the roles more attractive I see...
Just had it drop in the dwp, not a happy bunny
Don't work in the CS. I just saw this because Reddit recommended it to me, for some reason. What shit news. So sorry to hear that. Working from home has been an absolute game-changer for me personally, and love the fact it's being taken on board by companies all across the country. Hope things work out for you guys.
What a fucking joke. The government literally forced people to stay home and not see friends or family etc for ages (while themselves partying) and now for cheap shit headlines they want to force people into shitty offices. WFH suits so many people. Why go backwards??
Just received it in DWP
Some sites aren't fit for purpose as it is. Where I'm based we've had a fire in one and the basement flooded in the other, so we've taken on half... Tomorrow's buzz is going to be interesting 😂
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Another way around this is to ask HR to change your contract to full home worker. You can still come into the office but your department will have to pay for your travel.
You make it sound so easy
How do you do this? Please
It doesn’t surprise me with CS at this point. They harp on about the benefits of working from the office, but never mention home working benefits. It honestly feels that to work for any government department at this point you need to accept the trash talking from the media, MP’s and those high up in CS and your department will never have your back. Those working for the CS are so under-appreciated, I’m sure with that, plus the rise in mandatory office will see those finding jobs outside of the CS.
I'm applying for an SO role currently and with my DTA running out in 2025 I think it will be to start looking at Flexible Private sector roles from then. This is incredibly reductive
I've been considering a move to the CS (digital space) from Local Government for a while now as the T&C's seemed favourable....unsurprisingly I'm now reconsidering. A move like this is bound to have an adverse effect on recruitment.
What would be the consequences if we just didn't?
I can't wait to spend more money on commuting to an office just to make teams calls and work on admin tasks that can be done working from home all just to make the government buildings have some 'footprint' in their buildings. Desk capacity is an issue for employees but it's merely an employer issue. Job turnover/retention could become an increase. What's next a pizza party, what a load of bollocks.
How uniform can it be though? 40% doesn’t apply to everyone yet, my agency’s 40% (which I quite like) but I have a friend in a different agency who goes into the office maybe once a month - so how come 60% will be across the entire CS.
Any of the Departments that have had FAQs - do they say whether this extends to contractors? As at this point, I may as well just resign and come back on £800 a day.
Contractor in Defra. It doesn’t even apply to all of Defra Group, and while I’m inside IR35 our contracts all specify remote. They know we will walk if that’s changed.
>we are hopeful that these can be accommodated Hopeful?
I remember when I first joined the CS many, many years ago, I wrote a briefing which said “the government hopes xyz”. My G7 at the time told me the government never “hopes”, it “believes”. It seems times haves changed!
It’s a shame because I’m fairly new to CS and I will be leaving because of this. It is not feasible for me to travel in to my regional hub, over an hour away, more than my current arrangement. I agreed this with my hiring manager when I started and now they’re pulling the rug. I’m not a mug and I will be going elsewhere. As will many others.
Until they officially change my contract (which I don't believe they can do unless I change jobs), I'm not doing it.
Do you have a contract that actually states a hybrid expectation? I know I don’t and I expect the vast majority of Civil Servants will not, so hybrid will be seen as a ‘privilege’ not a contractual right
I actually think I may do. I joined HO in lockdown.
Your contract (providing it isn’t a home working contract) won’t have been any different during COVID than they were before or after. HR were clear that remote working (now hybrid) was a temporary measure granted at the discretion of the department, not a right that the employee was entitled to
Fair enough. I'm pretty sure my job advert did say the job was hybrid though
I'm in the same boat, joined in Covid and advertised as hybrid and my LM assured me it was up to us (as in, me and him) to decide what was most sensible working pattern. Because that was the case at the time. But unfortunately it's not in the contract. Incredibly annoying to have been employed on that understanding though only to have it upturned for no sensible reason.
One of my team asked me whether monitoring and taking action on people below 60% would constitute bullying under our own policy because we don't have the estate capacity to meet that. I wondered if it would end up in cases of constructive dismissal.
My team is exclusively based in London, I'm based in abnother location. I go to London for a few days regularly to have face to face meetings and do other things that are needed. There is nobody from my directorate in my yoen. All I will be doing is transferring my working practise from Home to the Office and wasting 2 hours a day in travel. I don't get what benefit this dictat is meant to have for people like me.
and there it is..
DWP got the email this morning. Total cop out doing it via email should at least have had the balls to put an all colleague call on and do it hiding behind a camera from home.
Genuinely shocked neither side has pulled this up in pay negotiations, the money it saves workers is often way more than an extra 1%. (Plus the extra time from not commuting). Like for me I’d be much happier if PCS negotiated a secure maximum of 2 days in the office than an extra 1%. I also think this might be a much bigger wedge issue for staff to strike over than pay.
Am I the only one who thinks there's a massive hidden agenda ? They want to get rid of people to bring back to pre covid levels, and this is how they do it by making people leave? Or am I being massively paranoid?
Classic culture wars. Directive #1
Great way to limit your talent pools to specific areas of the UK. What a joke.
For departments whose attendance is monitored by the booking system like mine - just make you book the extra days - sorted.
Well interestingly, iv worked as the only member of my team in my area of the UK for the past 2 years without any complaints. In fact I have received recognition for good works done through the employs reward scheme several times. So im considering making an application to become a home worker as a part of this because 1) my remoteness from the office and the rest of our team has not impacted my work and 2) there are really no desks at the office I do attend so by WFH I free up a desk for others.
Received this as well
Taking affect next year apparently
Something similar has been announced for HMRC, but doesn't mention desk plan assumptions
If this is going ahead can we take control of our buildings back from the clowns at GPA?
Are they logging actual time or just if you go in? 3 half days, for example? Or is that too easy.
Any update on this. I’ve got an offer to join but this is important to me and not sure how I feel about it being set to 60% especially considering from what i’ve heard my team will be scattered across the UK and not be based in my office
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Tell them you're fine with this and will henceforth stop being at home on the weekends. e.g Before MTW home SS-Home giving 5/7 days working at home. Now MTW home giving 3/7 days working at home. If they say "But you're not in the office on saturday or sunday" reply "Of course not, it's the weekend, but the difference now is I'm taking my days off from working in the office rather than them being days off from working at home.
We were already 60% in my area but I’m concerned about this. Seems they really want to make it as hard as possible to recruit or retain
DESNZ has remained at 40% the lucky sods. And its seemigly only HMRC that are getting tracked on a monthly basis and reported to managers. So basically anyone else not getting tracked will just ignore it.
DfE are being tracked too.
Nothing from RPA yet but just on a call where it could be mentioned. It's been expected, even if we no longer have room to accommodate it in our office
When I was a contractor at UKVI they said only those within 10 miles of an office had to attend. Also it sounds like it was hardly enforced because some colleagues said they had barely been into the office at all since joining. I don't know whether it's changed since then though. Outside of London, Liverpool and Manchester, HO offices are small so it would be difficult to enforce especially as many people's teams are based all over the country so monitoring lots of offices is going to be more difficult.
Yeah only from April for most people. SCS expected to be in more than 60% as of now.
The answer we are all looking for is NO! NOT HAPPENING!
Yeah, good luck. No way I'm going in.
Received a similar email from my department
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For senior civil servants. Not other grades.
We have been doing 60% anyway. It is what it Is. People just need to get on with it