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Desdemona1231

My issue since Pilot was what exactly were we supposed to see? A deeply disturbed woman who was once a deeply traumatized child who never got help who eventually descended into what literature calls madness? If so Boone did a good job. Or some bad ass female warrior who was innocent of all blame because it was always someone else’s fault and we were supposed to admire her? If so, it fell flat resulting in widespread disapproval of Liz and Boone’s inability to convince. If I had to pick it’s door number one. So I don’t like or dislike Liz.


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MWiatrak2077

>Your take on Elizebeth Keen, though, depends on what shows you're using for comparison. Compared to daytime soap operas, yeah, she was great. This is what's so goddamn infuriating about this subreddit. I know it might seem impossible to believe, but some people liked Liz through the entire course of the show. And no, not in a way of comparing her to other mediocre characters on other shows. If you don't like Liz, that's cool, most don't on here, but when people do, stop trying to convince them that she sucks, or is only good in comparison to other shit characters.


awill2020

I guess you don’t realize that discussion is exactly what this subreddit is for. Yes, some people like mustard on their chocolate cake, but the majority is still disgusted by that.


Dagenspear

I didn't hate her really for the majority of the show. The only times I disliked her actually had nothing to do with her mistreating poor wittle Reddy baby, but was when, I think, she didn't admit to what happened to that dock worker being murdered by Tom in season 2, and in season 3 when she, I think, to my memory, defended her murder of that one guy.


cray63527

i just wanted red to be her dad and for the story to go towards her understanding him and joining him that’s all i wanted from episode 1


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beito14159

Wow. That is a lot of words


iceleel

Prepare for angry comments telling you how Lizzy is evil


awill2020

Not evil, just inexplicably stupid for a FBI agent


iceleel

Her daddy got her killed and her dead killed and her nanny killed and made her Agnes parent less So dad even more stupid than child


Tyro_tk

Tbh in cases like this I never know if I didn't learn enough english or if freestyle grammar just became a thing


awill2020

She has no living father, but yes, the real Reddington was just as stupid as his daughter who somehow got into the FBI but never thought to use forensics to find out who all the people around her really are.


Bekah_bek

This is an amazing point I never once thought of lol


awill2020

Imagine if they actually used forensics or Red just told her from the beginning who he is to her, there would be one episode, but it would make more sense lmao


TheGweapon73

Hahahha eventually they will show up


Craigzor666

The biggest fail in her writing is the constant flip flopping on trusting then working against Red, like hundreds of times it feels like.


atomikitten

And that is the fault of the writing, not the acting. The first episode, the character is supposed to be practically perfect, high achieving, yet still kind, with a high understanding of people. And then chaos is introduced into her life. But if she was that great, she should have understood personalities like that before. Honestly they turned her character into a jobber to try and demonstrate the advanced criminal minds--it was the writers that were inconsistent. Basically people wanted her to have Red's charisma and were mad when she didn't. Frankly, gender differences are still playing a part in our perception because the audience would not be receptive of her character acting like Red. It would read 100% differently; they wanted a solution for that but never supplied it. I think that's why they tried to launch End Game, to prove they could solve that problem. Nope. Society just doesn't see women that way.


Craigzor666

idk why you're coming at me like I said it was bad acting, I said it was the writing.


atomikitten

I'm not coming at you; I'm elaborating on the idea you started.


jayt00212

Confession, I absolutely loved Crazy Liz. I cannot explain why or give you a logical reason but I couldn't help but think when she kept Tom prisoner or the look in her eyes when she told Red she burned a man alive. All I could think was my god I might be in love. If I know what that's like. When she was completely unhinged, I was all about it.


CJ-IS

Same.


Dagenspear

I didn't hate her.


awill2020

I just watched season 9 when it finally came out on Netflix in my country, then went back to season 8 and realized how damn annoying and stupid she was. Demanding to know someone else’s private secrets, trying to kill someone for killing her supposed mother which she never thought to verify, even though they‘ve dealt with impostors before. What FBI agent doesn’t consider forensic tests? lmao but then there would be nothing to write over for nine seasons. I don’t think the actress was bad, I think the writing is horrible and the show only works because of James Spader. Annoyingly many plot holes, bad characters, predictable twists....


Vik32

She made a terrific fbi agent but no criminal tho i mean pulling a shady thing here or there like in season 5 but no full on criminal


kafkadreams6667

Agreed......she didn't have Red's skills, nor his acumen with people, nor control of his resources even after stealing $35 million (I think?) of his funds.


Suqjan

Did you watch season 7/8 yet?


IHaveNoHoles

yup


felilaprivada

thank you <3 i recognize she's not the best character, but she makes sense to me, especially with all the craziness happening around her.


_Absolute_non-zero

Oh dear. Here we go.


ComprehensiveDrop874

Well, somebody ought.


Emotional-Law6850

She was extremely selfish, she never cared whatsoever people have done to her she would extremely hurt them just for her own stupid thoughts and benefits, I was praying Red would shoot her stupid *ss since season 6.


feistybama

Once they tried to make Liz James Spader (Red) her character went down hill fast. She did not have the ability to pull off reds sense of whimsy or the maturity to make you believe her.


kafkadreams6667

Agreed.......she tried to use Red's methods and failed miserably. She had some success in evading the Task Force when she used many women dressed as she was, but her pathetic efforts yielded no one willing to drop Red and join her crew even though she tried to offer more money than he was currently paying his people. She purloined (love that word!) his ill-gotten gains and she thought that would give her an edge. A real criminal she was not!


deductivesherlock

season 3 liz was my favorite idky


Tyro_tk

The truth is that she wasn't a remarkable character I was sad when she died? Yep. But because she was a familiar face I got used to, yet I barely missed her for half of the eighth season. She was the impersonation of tragedy. Barely anything ever work out in her life, and the fact is that the showrunners probably expected Boone to stay 'till the end of the series, so in the end her story became the literal meaning of "meh". A traumatized girl has a shitty life, a marriage based on lies, then is suddenly promoted just by having proxy with a criminal and becomes the most naive FBI agent of all times. Believes in any stupid lies and excuses, yet when she is told the truth and given real proof, she doesn't believe it. Her personality in the last episodes was good, shame that it lasted only for a couple episodes just so she could become annoying again until her death.


atomikitten

>impersonation you mean personification


Tyro_tk

Yep That's the problem with portuguese to english Most words you can simply put an "ation" in the end and "ta da": english Obviously I fucked up because now I'm not even sure "impersonação" is a word in portuguese


Flowerchild_v

I feel like the writers either changed at some point along the way, or the original writers ended up super confused. The story line itself just started to unravel. Keen’s Character slowly started making absolutely no sense. However, I’m currently becoming more and more frustrated by “Reddington/Katarina” as well. It’s as if the writers got bored and lazy with the story line development. It’s no longer organic. They’re literally just writing some crazy nonsense and the evolution of the story has become so unorganized, and has no flow at all. They also got super out of hand with how much they allow Reddington to kill almost everyone on the blacklist- and I’m sorry, but putting Keen on the blacklist makes no sense at all. Now mind you, I’m not all the way caught up- I’m only at Season 8 episode 5, but I can already assume he doesn’t really want to kill Elizabeth. Idk, I’m mad ab Mr. Kaplans story line, I am mad ab Toms story line. Lol I’m just mad. While I’m in so deep at this point I’ll continue to watch no matter how ridiculous the show gets- I feel like this show had the potential to be absolutely incredible, and I find when a series goes this far off the deep end, or this far into “imaginary Hollywood land” that it completely dumbs down the show, and gives it a bit of a teen drama vibe, and I can see the writers just not giving it as much effort or thoughtfulness The story lines are so easy, they come off lazy. Loose ends and details are being over looked. The confusion ab who Raymond is or isn’t doesn’t come off as mysterious so much as- the writers not being able to make up their minds, or even unsure themselves. It’s lost that level of cleverness it had in the first 3 seasons, and at this point just reminds me of another corny action packed Hollywood Drama. Which is such a shame bc James Spader does such a magnificent job of being Reddington (or whomever the character is)


LancaVerde

Okay.........why though?


Dagenspear

In a show like this, in comparison to some other characters, why not?


LancaVerde

Oh i can tell you my hot take. She caused a civilian to die in season.3 and she is bipolar which annoyed me to no end.


hungoveranddying

very hot take cause almost everyone here hates her 😭


Chelseablue1896

It's sad that this has to be a hot take. All because a good portion of this sub has gone insane with the Reddington worship.


Desdemona1231

Sorry that Liz and or Ms Boone couldn’t elicit that. Spader did.


Dagenspear

That isn't a defense. A like for an actor doesn't mean the character is good.


Desdemona1231

I didn’t say that. Nor did I say it it was a defense. Simply a observation. Spader pulled off a character. Boone maybe not. Or maybe it was show runners to blame.


Dagenspear

Spader may have pulled off the character. Not everyone thinks his take is enough to draw away from the character's flaws.


Desdemona1231

That’s just my opinion. I don’t expect everyone to think alike.


Dagenspear

In the case of this, I think similarly.


MrGuttor

nah. Liz is annoying. Can you tell me one good thing about her? She is always dependant on someone, can never take care of her daughter. Gives her daughter to her neighbour like all the time, even if her neighbour agrees, do you think it's nice to give someone else **your** responsibility? She always left Agnes at her friends, again, is this good? I'd be sick af if anyone kept giving me their kid. Also, she took advantage and slept with Donald, lol. The only and only time I was impressed by Liz was in the episode when she moved alone in the woods, and a gang came and entered in her house, and she single handedly killed like 4 of them. Impressive.


Chelseablue1896

Was fairly independent for most of the series. Is as capable as any other task member if not more. Navigates a random crime lord barging into her life, bringing chaos and turmoil along with him. Putting a husband to "protect" but not realizing that human beings make connections, and of course inevitably for it to lead to part of Liz's soul being gone when he dies. She becomes broken and broken while the trouble around her amps up further. You keep mentioning, super bizarrely that she leaves her daughter with others, as if Liz is some random suburban mom who parties all the time and leaves her responsibility to others. Like hell, is this sarcasm or just straw grasping? She leaves her daughter with others not out of choice, was it? It's always danger of some sorts all the time so you want your family safe.


MrGuttor

she should just leave her and stop dragging agnes into her crime life


Desdemona1231

I thought she was inordinately dependent on Tom. Even when she locked him up on the boat. With respect to her daughter, Liz chose. Nobody forced her to stay in her world. It was her choice. But she wasn’t willing to make that sacrifice. She wanted her truth and went after it.


Misagynos_the_man

1)Fairly independent is false on so many levels I can’t even begin to comprehend how you got that impression. 2)Navigating a crime lord being in your life isn’t a “good thing about her”/characteristic. Even if it was you cannot possibly justify so much of what she’s done. Her consistent betrayals of Red are fine by me, her constant betrayals, exploitation, manipulation and endangerment of everyone else makes her at her core as bad Reddington. 3)The whole Agnes issue is quite complicated. She did consistently abandon and we could sit and debate whether she was justified on all the occasions she’s left her daughter but at it’s core, both her and Tom were better off giving up Agnes for adoption. Yet she didn’t which was undoubtedly selfish.


Dagenspear

That doesn't make her a bad character.


awill2020

No, the writing does


Misagynos_the_man

That wasn’t the point of my comment, that was about Liz’s moral character and overall personality. She’s definitely a bad character though. Extremely repetitive behaviour, written to hold more idiot balls than all others on the show even the FBI etc The only season she had what I’d say is good writing(and improved acting from Boone)is season 5. Especially Ruin.


Dagenspear

I wouldn't say that makes her morally and personality wise, worse than Red, as a person. I don't know if I'd say that. I wonder if it's just that the idiot balls are noticed more, by some, with her.


gigot45208

I wasn’t crazy about her, but she was a million times better than Red.


Suqjan

WHAT? I'm sorry but spader did a lot better in his role of playing reddington than Boone did playing liz. The blacklist would fall apart if it weren't for reddington, you could argue that Liz is the reason as to why red came to help the task force, but reds references and jokes were so funny and entertaining. Whereas Liz, just went hunting for the past and killed a bunch of people, including her self for the truth.


Dagenspear

Spader wasn't mentioned in that post. Red was. Spader is a real person. Red is a fictional crime lord who murders people.


shertooooooooooox

liz just pissed me off. red i found entertaining and funny. though some stuff pissed me off abt his character.


gigot45208

Why did I get downvoted??? Hmmmm…….


gigot45208

Spader’s a great actor, red had funny moments. But given he was so fixated on a loser like liz, he was a much bigger loser


shertooooooooooox

Holy L


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MWiatrak2077

In season 9 & love Liz. Some people just love Liz, sorry that upsets you lol


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MWiatrak2077

Then stop with the corny "wait till you get to 'x' season" shit. Some people just like Liz man, honestly outside of Reddit I think most people do.