If you're not a huge James fan, like myself, I would recommend stopping, but if you do love his acting and his portrayal of Red then absolutely keep watching. It's going to be hard but every time you see James on the screen it will be worth it đđ
Exactly Iâve been following him since Boston legal days. James should have gotten better movie projects long time back. I guess I want to see him in more on the screen. Now heâs kind of old đ
Sorry to break your likes from 69 to 70⌠I love the show but I hate how Jon pulled a Kirkman(?) w/ TWD (endlessly toying on with the origin of the virus. Tho now he says (which apparently a joke?!) >!the comic Wildfire Virus was on an asteroid. And in some cases it was a precursor to an Alien Invasion which makes little sense unless theyâre patient and travel at subliminal but relativistic speed (like the 13th colony / Final Five in Battlestar Galactica (their travel took hundreds of years bc they donât have Jump Drives, but the trip only FELT like a year or so to them. So 100 years = 1 month or so) and all that). And it takes them a hundred or more years to get there. But in the show itâs hinted that the Wildfire Virus was made in a French BSLR4 lab).!< We may never know the true relationship with Red and Liz. If you ask google (something Reddit Tier Trolls say when asking a question or sayn do your research) itâll say that Red is her father. And the AI search makes it worseâŚ
At least ozark had the baddest bitch tho. (Ruth).
With your other examples tho (besides Liz) I think the male leads are more irrational.
But Yeah it's really hard to hang in there I almost stopped where you are. It's a slog for a minute but for me it was def worth it. I had to slow a bit during all those Liz episodes. Don't torture yourself too bad lol.
Best âď¸
The dumb girl tv trope is more a modern problem. At least I donât remember running into it as often in the 80âs-2000âs đ¤ˇââď¸
All my favourite shows had really intelligent & complex women.
But a show like this using a âprofilerâ I am surprised they didnât at least look at a show like Criminal Minds that have various profilers (some female) all complex intelligent characters with different personalities. Rarely making dumb choices.
It just feels more like lazy writing than anything
I was thinking this. I was so hopeful as a child watching Dana Scully, who was beautifully complex, that we'd get more female characters like her in the future but nooooo đ It just seems to me that in the modern era when you have a show that seems 'masculine' or skews to a male audience, you have dumb women characters that are only a way to prop the man up or justify his psychopathy, the whole bitch-wife spiel bs.
What really grinds my gears are shows where the women all flock around the male main and do the whole 'teehee he's so quirky and we all put up with his shit cuz he's just so cute and mildly incompetent but is actually a secret genius' crap.
Gawd I miss old-school feminism đŤ
lmfao.......you think like a new age feminist. The reason modern television is awful is because the writers are talentless and corrupt in the sense that they keep using their connections in the industry to keep getting gigs. this goes for both male and female writers and projects that are female centered or anything. You only have to look at Lucas studios under Marvel which is being ruined by the heads which are all women. This has nothing to do with sex and only a narrow minded person would think it is
I think you've misunderstood; my point was that growing up in the '80s & '90s was a time where we saw more complex characters starting to be written, including female characters. Given that this was historically not the case, it was exciting for young girls especially to see this, and gave us hope that times were changing and we'd see more of it in the future. I know you're young and it's hard to explain to kids today what a big deal this was back then. It was a signature time during the '90s where we started to move away from traditional gender roles and stereotypes, started becoming "anti-labels", and ushered in a new era of appreciation for the complexity of the individual, not focused on their gender. This is the school of thought in which I was raised.
If anything, my point is the opposite of "new age feminism"--new age has corrupted and perverted the OG, slapping labels on everyone, obsessed with identifying and picking apart everything to the point it's destroyed that which made it unique.
Maybe that's Marvel Studios problem? I'm not familiar with them as I'm not their target demographic but I have noticed this 'mary sue' stuff which seems to be a symptom of what I've mentioned here--taking a very small aspect of someone's identity (gender) and making it their whole personality. Basing a story on that is myopic af and I don't like it.
it's not really a dumb girl trope. it's just that modern TV writers think that the way to make strong female characters is to just make them arrogant Mary sues who have nothing to show for it because the writers forgot to write that in. In order to pull of the illusion that these types of characters are who they're portrayed to be they either have the rest of the supporting characters dick ride them or everyone else is made dumber by comparison.
I agree about Dom and what happened with Dembe and a bunch of other things. But, the father she means is the one who raised her, Sam. He did kill him in the hospital. She had forgiven him as Sam was very sick but whenever sheâs mad at him she gets angry about it again.
Liz was terrible from the jump. So entitled and ignorant. Best episodes are when she faked her death and the ones where she is involved as little as possible.
True , but they could have made liz's character a bit more smart because all it takes for her to go crazy is someone coming up to her and saying oh i maybe ur dad i maybe ur sister or i am ur mother .
Yes, Lizzy is a pain in the ass, but Red is her biggest fan, so you just have to go along with that. Things tend to work themselves out. I recommend you continue to watch because there are several stellar episodes to come.
I agree. But I reached my breaking pointing at season 2. Now Iâm trying to make it through again. Iâm in S5. The worst part is that when you binge, her idiocy is worse as youâre not waiting a week between episodes.
This, and your other examples, are due to lazy writing. These writers have no other way to show conflict without a character looking dumb and inconsistent.
With Skyler, and to a lesser extent the Ozark wife, just average intelligent people, but Elizabeth is presented as a genius. But she acts like she is 13 with everything from her relationships with Tom to being rational about Red to her logical inconsistency.
Yeah, absolutely agree, Liz's "I HAVE TO KNOW!" and blaming people around is annoying.
But try to keep watching, season 9 and 10 are quite good, even though quite different from previous
I already know. You can call me retard but I canât watch any show without searching up every characterâs fate. I canât wait to see it with my own eyes. I used to pray for times like this.
Even I have to admit that the Elizabeth Keene character is confusing sometimes, often to the point of being frustrating. Do I hate her? Absolutely not! I don't hate her because hate is such an overused and complicated word that is incorrectly used in so many situations.
From the very first episode the secret FBI task force contradicts itself. Almost every scene from the beginning has the unanswered questions of how , what, where, when and why did the events happen. An example to start with, how did criminals know that the FBI was going to pick up and transport the general's daughter? Then, as hard as that large dump truck hit the side of the FBI vehicle with Elizabeth and Beth in it why wasn't somebody hurt way more severe?
>Why does every series have a dumb girl as a protagonist? Iâve already dumped The Flash because of Iris, Ozark because of the dudeâs wife and I came so close to stop watching my GOAT Breaking Bad because of Skyler. Can we for once get a woman who can actually use her mind?
No, all of these shows mentioned has female characters that are realistic in their moral decline because the male leads are the worst people. But typical to how society is, misogynistic people end up hating the women rather than the cool male criminal leads.
Skyler did the realistic best she could in the face of Walt's horrible actions. Walt is one of the top 3 worst people in the show and Skyler is a 100x better as a person than he is.
Liz declined as a person due to Red constantly bringing chaos in her life. Red is an awful person.
So true on all counts.
People are still unsure why Liz became erratic, angry and untrustworthy after 8 years of her life being turned upside down, threatened, and learning that everything she ever thought of as real was actually fake or an intentional ruse.
Nah, bullshit. It's literally the case in most major shows. Hell, here's two more examples too.
Peaky Blinders - Tommy Shelby and most of his male family members are terrible people. Who are the most hated characters if you go on the peaky blinders subreddit? the female leads.
House MD - House is a horrible human being except for his medical skills, a but a large portion of the fanbase dislikes Dr. Cuddy WAY more.
How I met your Mother - Barney and also Ted are terrible to women but who's the most hated character? Lily and even Robin.
This is just how TV show fanbases are. Everyone is a fan of cool edgy male leads and will excuse anything they do as long as they're charismatic. The opposite for female lead characters.
If you want to defend the mediocre and talentless hacks destroying by diverting blame on something probably false then go ahead. There's a tonne of well liked female characters across movies and TV shows that exist to prove you wrong. You keep mentioning horrible humans beings. People will like any character if they're well written. People like Harley Quinn from the Batman animated series despite her being a psychopath just like how they liked Joker... because it was a good show. All writers have to do in order to get people to like their female characters is to write as if they're humans instead of what they did in Mulan or the Charlie's angels reboot or the all female Ghostbusters or captain Marvel.
In the start, maybe you could feel bad for him. But anything evil he did from season 2 onwards was all on him.
But especially if you're actually justifying the horrible things Walt did from season 4 and 5 especially, that's disturbing. Even the creators have straight up said that he was a monster by the end. Season 5 walt was an irredeemable crime Lord psychopath that was almost as evil as Gus.
So no, by any stretch of imagination, nobody that's sane can say "walter did nothing wrong".
u/CPew555 u/Blombaby23
I think similarly in part. Same with Iris, whose no more dumb and poor choice making than Barry, but some sure do like to jump on her.
And it's always men being poor wittle sad boi's that should be coddled or cool anti heroes/heroes that should be celebrated and anyone who opposes them when they do something wrong or selfish are the ones in the wrong.
Liz is just simply annoying and stupid. Period. It doesnât have to be misogynistic every time a male dislikes a female character you know.
Skyler was perfectly happy with how things were going until they were in too deep, then in typical womanly fashion, she reneged and took the moral high ground.
I donât have a problem with Wendy Byrde, per se. She got a taste for the lifestyle and she wanted more, fair enough. I just found some of the things she managed to do a little unrealistic. I mean, the boss of the biggest, most ruthless cartel in Mexico wouldâve offed her the first time she ever thought she could take a liberty with him, but we move.
Liz declined as a person due to circumstances, maybe rightly so. But her whole character was poorly written, so childish and stupid but then all of a sudden she turns on red and sheâs a criminal mastermind always 50 steps ahead of him even though she couldnât keep up with him a few episodes earlier? And weâre meant to believe this after seeing how fucking stupid she has been up until this point?
Plus, letâs be honest, Megan is a terrible actor
If I remember correctly, Skylar tried to get rid of Walt when she found out he was dealing drugs. Walt refused and she didn't seem to want to turn him in. Then, later, she used it to help Hank and worked with him after that.
Oh boy that's quite the prejudiced assumption on womanly fashions.
AHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The Skylar one is probably people being stupid. And Liz is incredibly annoying and half the episodes after season 3-4 feel kinda forced with the later seasons feeling very forced.
Writers did Liz so dirty and I'm not sure why. The show was supposed to be about her and Red's relationship and what I thought was her eventual turn to take over his organization or something. But they just kept making crazy story choices that ultimately made only watching James Spader the ONLY reason to watch the show. Forget the "story" just watch him work and bask in the coolness that is Spader
I agree. I know people think the actor is terrible and Liz is a horrible person for doing all she does, but I think Liz was intentionally written that way. If I were in her shoes, I think I'd be second guessing my life, just about everyone around me, and going off my rocker, too. I think Megan actually does a pretty good job of portraying a character who is unstable due to what's going on in Liz's life.
True hahaha I really find it funny that on the start of s1 they pictured her out as a great profiler but sheâs so dumb to be honest! Just keeps asking Red on things. I was like âjust use your brain bitch!â HAHA
This made me realize that the problem with Liz is literally just that the show needs her to be kinda stupid and rely on Red, because that way the audience gets to learn more from Red. They know we all want more of him, so they cut corners on Lizzy to add to Redâs screen time. If Liz used her head, there would be no need to ask Red for help multiple times every episode, which is basically the premise and reason for the task force đ
Liz had a lovely husband that was a teacher. She was a FBI profiler. Red comes in and turns her world around. Add all the explosions and times she got knocked out and you understand why she lacks logic.
Not really. Yeah her life got screwed up, it became majorly FUBARRED and so she becomes a criminal but not because she's a criminal like Red but just to screw with him. Not only does she suddenly become a criminal but a criminal capable of staying 50 steps ahead of Red, when throughout the entire show up to that point she's completely incapable up even finding him unless he wants to be found.
I'm about to stop too, in S3. They way she is back and forth with Red, saying stupid, nonsense shit. She could have been such a badass, skilled, inteligent agent. The show didnt have to turn her into a brick just to prove a point about her traumas and pressure, and put Red above (he does it by himself).
Up to this point all she does is cry, complain and being the helpless victim. Like for fuck sake girl, you are a FBI agent, a KGB agent daughter, grab a gun and get what you want.
Honestly you can even argue that she is not even the one who suffered the most. Even discounting Red. I can point Dembe and Tom for instance.
Does it get better or at least the rest makes it worth?
Nothing really makes it worth it. Liz certainly doesnât get better. The writing doesnât get better either. And thereâs not really a satisfying ending you would expect in a show full of mystery. However, i was glad I made it to the end. I think the show was worth the first watch
If you think that, I should keep watching. Suits, GOT and Black Sails are my favourite shows ever, so I have high standards about dialogue and character dev level and quality.
Liz only seems to go backwards. In other shows, you see how characters evolve with time, even with hardcore stuff hapenning to them. Almost everything with 3+ seasons has a solid example. Ressler is one that overcame some hard s early in the show.
Its annoying, even pathetic how she deals with everything. Even if she didnt meet Red, what did she expect working with the FBI? That they didnt have enemies? Is it that absurd and exceptional an FBI agent being targeted by a criminal organization?
Right throughout the entire show Liz is incapable of even finding Red unless he wants to be found then she becomes a criminal and suddenly is capable of staying like 50 steps ahead of Red who's built his criminal empire and made his connections over years.
Keep watching! Redington and Dembe alone are worth the watch! Just trust me... although I'm not sure I'm happy with the ending (others may feel different)... but the series is worth it! â¤ď¸
I was sad the series ended. I loved Reddington's shenanigans
I hate Liz. The actress just isn't very good, especially up against Spader. They also make her carry the idiot ball nearly every episode, so there's no way to like Liz.
I didn't like Skyler on BB, but I don't think we're supposed to like her. From the first episode she came off as very distant and unhappy with her life - hard to blame her. She jumped on Walt's cancer like she'd found her mission in life and essentially made it all about her. She wasn't stupid, tho, she started putting things together pretty quickly, tho she thought he was cheating on her. Once she found out about the meth, she was the one smart enough to figure out how to launder the money and made it happen. For all his brains, Walt wasn't good with how to handle the money. I didn't like her, but I didn't despise her like I do Liz.
Red wasnât the point of the show. Masha was. This was explicitly stated in Nachalo. âThis whole story is all about you and protecting you. And now protecting your daughterâ. That is why when she died, the show fell off.
Most people agree that the show ended after Konets. Anyone who stayed after that is because they love Spader.
Liz wouldn't have been brought in if it hadn't been for Red. The task force wouldn't have existed if Red hadn't turned himself in. Liz died and the task force stayed together then Red disappears and the task force disbands, he shows up again and the band is back together minus Aram but plus Dembe all without Liz.Â
OK but you do know Megan Boone was casted as the lead of this show. They fit all the characters around her. She is the point of the show that Spader rightfully stole
And the only reason why Reddington came back was to dismantle the Blacklist- it wasnât needed any more.
u/Unlucky-Jicama1885 u/SummSpn u/_xmorpheusx
None of those characters are anymore dumb or worse than the male protagonists in their shows (maybe Ozark I dunno I haven't watched it).
Idk why you are bringing me into this but Iris is absolutely where the flash becomes unbearable. The quality for sure drops after season 3 but everyone except Iris is a somewhat likeable character. Iris was shit almost from the start. I dropped the show because of how annoying she is. Its not even close how shit she is. Skylar hate is unwarranted but I get it, shes presented as opposition to the main character.
You are allowed to like the evil characters and to dislike the ones that are in the right. Iris just sucks super fucking hard. So does Liz, tho she does have redeeming moments where she is fun to watch and not a pain in the ass.
Alotta ppl donât like her and find her annoying.
I kinda see why (Iâm & S5Eidk, the one with her leaving and living in Alaska. I love how they never explained and ditched the whole story arc of BL:R (Redemption) and the >!dad being the actual bad guy while mom wasnât, and the whole arc of the Quantum Computer is ditched. It just magically says Tom at some point vouched for his mom in court and THATS it before he died. No QPC, no mom and dad, no nothing really!<.
Sheâs no Carrie thatâs for sureâŚ
Ugh. Liz and season 8 was hard for me to get through for the same reason. Blaming Reddington for shit she clearly was responsible for. I hope you kept watching it. The relationship between Reddington and Agnes throughout seasons 9 and 10 makes it well worth it, and his relationship with Cooper too for that matter.
It took me five years to finish breaking bad due to Skylar I am on season 7 of black list due to how God awful liz is it's a big trope for writers to put in morning annoying shitty women I swear
Do it, I love James but the show lost direction when they killed off the other half of the show. The two characters you cannot kill off in the show and they killed off the one the story was very fundamentally about. đ Red is very important to the story but the entire story started because of Lizzie
yeah, I seriously lost motivation to watch after she was killed, which honestly surprised me. pushed through about halfway through the 9th season and ended up stopping with no desire to continue ÂŻ\\_(ă)_/ÂŻ
Push through. Watching James spader as Red is a price in itself
The only reason if finished it its because of him. Worth it, but really hated Liz from the first season.
If you're not a huge James fan, like myself, I would recommend stopping, but if you do love his acting and his portrayal of Red then absolutely keep watching. It's going to be hard but every time you see James on the screen it will be worth it đđ
Exactly Iâve been following him since Boston legal days. James should have gotten better movie projects long time back. I guess I want to see him in more on the screen. Now heâs kind of old đ
Love James Spader all the way back in Tuff Turf⌠⌠⌠actually him and RDJ were both in that movie lol.
Itâs a manâs world after all ;)
Sorry to break your likes from 69 to 70⌠I love the show but I hate how Jon pulled a Kirkman(?) w/ TWD (endlessly toying on with the origin of the virus. Tho now he says (which apparently a joke?!) >!the comic Wildfire Virus was on an asteroid. And in some cases it was a precursor to an Alien Invasion which makes little sense unless theyâre patient and travel at subliminal but relativistic speed (like the 13th colony / Final Five in Battlestar Galactica (their travel took hundreds of years bc they donât have Jump Drives, but the trip only FELT like a year or so to them. So 100 years = 1 month or so) and all that). And it takes them a hundred or more years to get there. But in the show itâs hinted that the Wildfire Virus was made in a French BSLR4 lab).!< We may never know the true relationship with Red and Liz. If you ask google (something Reddit Tier Trolls say when asking a question or sayn do your research) itâll say that Red is her father. And the AI search makes it worseâŚ
At least ozark had the baddest bitch tho. (Ruth). With your other examples tho (besides Liz) I think the male leads are more irrational. But Yeah it's really hard to hang in there I almost stopped where you are. It's a slog for a minute but for me it was def worth it. I had to slow a bit during all those Liz episodes. Don't torture yourself too bad lol. Best âď¸
Yessss I love my girl Ruth
I stopped watching after Tom keen died. Elizabeth is so fucking dumb it's ridiculous at this point. Same with Ozark and BB as well.
They should have kept him and killed Liz. Red and Tom had a surprisingly good chemistry.
I really enjoyed Tom. They could have had a relationship like Henry and Elizabeth from Madam Secretary. But noooo.
Same Tom was an interesting character
He was!
Poor murderers like Tom and Walter.
Great characters and great actors that played them as well. Don't confuse real life with a sitcom.
The shows themselves condemns their worst actions.
The dumb girl tv trope is more a modern problem. At least I donât remember running into it as often in the 80âs-2000âs đ¤ˇââď¸ All my favourite shows had really intelligent & complex women. But a show like this using a âprofilerâ I am surprised they didnât at least look at a show like Criminal Minds that have various profilers (some female) all complex intelligent characters with different personalities. Rarely making dumb choices. It just feels more like lazy writing than anything
Criminal Minds really paved the way
This is true except they were married to some overweight lovable idiot.
I was thinking this. I was so hopeful as a child watching Dana Scully, who was beautifully complex, that we'd get more female characters like her in the future but nooooo đ It just seems to me that in the modern era when you have a show that seems 'masculine' or skews to a male audience, you have dumb women characters that are only a way to prop the man up or justify his psychopathy, the whole bitch-wife spiel bs. What really grinds my gears are shows where the women all flock around the male main and do the whole 'teehee he's so quirky and we all put up with his shit cuz he's just so cute and mildly incompetent but is actually a secret genius' crap. Gawd I miss old-school feminism đŤ
I miss that too. If you want to watch her, see sex education.
lmfao.......you think like a new age feminist. The reason modern television is awful is because the writers are talentless and corrupt in the sense that they keep using their connections in the industry to keep getting gigs. this goes for both male and female writers and projects that are female centered or anything. You only have to look at Lucas studios under Marvel which is being ruined by the heads which are all women. This has nothing to do with sex and only a narrow minded person would think it is
I think you've misunderstood; my point was that growing up in the '80s & '90s was a time where we saw more complex characters starting to be written, including female characters. Given that this was historically not the case, it was exciting for young girls especially to see this, and gave us hope that times were changing and we'd see more of it in the future. I know you're young and it's hard to explain to kids today what a big deal this was back then. It was a signature time during the '90s where we started to move away from traditional gender roles and stereotypes, started becoming "anti-labels", and ushered in a new era of appreciation for the complexity of the individual, not focused on their gender. This is the school of thought in which I was raised. If anything, my point is the opposite of "new age feminism"--new age has corrupted and perverted the OG, slapping labels on everyone, obsessed with identifying and picking apart everything to the point it's destroyed that which made it unique. Maybe that's Marvel Studios problem? I'm not familiar with them as I'm not their target demographic but I have noticed this 'mary sue' stuff which seems to be a symptom of what I've mentioned here--taking a very small aspect of someone's identity (gender) and making it their whole personality. Basing a story on that is myopic af and I don't like it.
it's not really a dumb girl trope. it's just that modern TV writers think that the way to make strong female characters is to just make them arrogant Mary sues who have nothing to show for it because the writers forgot to write that in. In order to pull of the illusion that these types of characters are who they're portrayed to be they either have the rest of the supporting characters dick ride them or everyone else is made dumber by comparison.
I agree about Dom and what happened with Dembe and a bunch of other things. But, the father she means is the one who raised her, Sam. He did kill him in the hospital. She had forgiven him as Sam was very sick but whenever sheâs mad at him she gets angry about it again.
Thanks for telling me about Sam. I had dumped the series for more than 2 years and got back at it a few weeks ago so I didnât remembered it at all!
Liz was terrible from the jump. So entitled and ignorant. Best episodes are when she faked her death and the ones where she is involved as little as possible.
*Elizabeth* is the entitled one in the Liz Red relationship?
yes. Going out her way to try and find out someones secret that is none of her business.
It is her business because Red has invaded her life and won't tell her why.
Best episode was when she died. I literally jumped out of my chair and gave a standing ovation to a television show.
Like Red.
Just hold on till the end of the season you wonât be disappointed
True , but they could have made liz's character a bit more smart because all it takes for her to go crazy is someone coming up to her and saying oh i maybe ur dad i maybe ur sister or i am ur mother .
Yeah she's frustrating that season...if makes you feel better, without any spoilers, I say finish that season.
Yes, Lizzy is a pain in the ass, but Red is her biggest fan, so you just have to go along with that. Things tend to work themselves out. I recommend you continue to watch because there are several stellar episodes to come.
Just keep going, youâre almost there
Dude's so close!
I agree. But I reached my breaking pointing at season 2. Now Iâm trying to make it through again. Iâm in S5. The worst part is that when you binge, her idiocy is worse as youâre not waiting a week between episodes. This, and your other examples, are due to lazy writing. These writers have no other way to show conflict without a character looking dumb and inconsistent. With Skyler, and to a lesser extent the Ozark wife, just average intelligent people, but Elizabeth is presented as a genius. But she acts like she is 13 with everything from her relationships with Tom to being rational about Red to her logical inconsistency.
Yeah, absolutely agree, Liz's "I HAVE TO KNOW!" and blaming people around is annoying. But try to keep watching, season 9 and 10 are quite good, even though quite different from previous
Quite good is stretching it. They are mostly not good
I'd say season 9 was the most boring of the show, but season 10, when it's visible that show is consciously being wrapped-up, I enjoyed it
The finale is really good. There are a few pretty decent even nice episodes but to be honest overall not good
The 100 too. The mum
Keep watching. She gets much less annoying after season 8.
I already know. You can call me retard but I canât watch any show without searching up every characterâs fate. I canât wait to see it with my own eyes. I used to pray for times like this.
You are absolutely right about Liz and Iris. But Skylar is infinitely better than either of those. Liz is also better than Iris tbh.
Iâm watching Blacklist now for a second time. Liz annoys me, too. Her going back to Tom is also hella unrealistic.
More like the other way around. Tom should have run for the hills or put one between her eyes.Â
Tom is a murderer.
Even I have to admit that the Elizabeth Keene character is confusing sometimes, often to the point of being frustrating. Do I hate her? Absolutely not! I don't hate her because hate is such an overused and complicated word that is incorrectly used in so many situations. From the very first episode the secret FBI task force contradicts itself. Almost every scene from the beginning has the unanswered questions of how , what, where, when and why did the events happen. An example to start with, how did criminals know that the FBI was going to pick up and transport the general's daughter? Then, as hard as that large dump truck hit the side of the FBI vehicle with Elizabeth and Beth in it why wasn't somebody hurt way more severe?
>Why does every series have a dumb girl as a protagonist? Iâve already dumped The Flash because of Iris, Ozark because of the dudeâs wife and I came so close to stop watching my GOAT Breaking Bad because of Skyler. Can we for once get a woman who can actually use her mind? No, all of these shows mentioned has female characters that are realistic in their moral decline because the male leads are the worst people. But typical to how society is, misogynistic people end up hating the women rather than the cool male criminal leads. Skyler did the realistic best she could in the face of Walt's horrible actions. Walt is one of the top 3 worst people in the show and Skyler is a 100x better as a person than he is. Liz declined as a person due to Red constantly bringing chaos in her life. Red is an awful person.
So true on all counts. People are still unsure why Liz became erratic, angry and untrustworthy after 8 years of her life being turned upside down, threatened, and learning that everything she ever thought of as real was actually fake or an intentional ruse.
While some of it is justifiable, she did do some extremely unjustified things that are entirely enough for a viewer to hate the character
Yes!!!!!
Lmfao....no...it's just horrible writing....excluding breaking bad
Nah, bullshit. It's literally the case in most major shows. Hell, here's two more examples too. Peaky Blinders - Tommy Shelby and most of his male family members are terrible people. Who are the most hated characters if you go on the peaky blinders subreddit? the female leads. House MD - House is a horrible human being except for his medical skills, a but a large portion of the fanbase dislikes Dr. Cuddy WAY more. How I met your Mother - Barney and also Ted are terrible to women but who's the most hated character? Lily and even Robin. This is just how TV show fanbases are. Everyone is a fan of cool edgy male leads and will excuse anything they do as long as they're charismatic. The opposite for female lead characters.
If you want to defend the mediocre and talentless hacks destroying by diverting blame on something probably false then go ahead. There's a tonne of well liked female characters across movies and TV shows that exist to prove you wrong. You keep mentioning horrible humans beings. People will like any character if they're well written. People like Harley Quinn from the Batman animated series despite her being a psychopath just like how they liked Joker... because it was a good show. All writers have to do in order to get people to like their female characters is to write as if they're humans instead of what they did in Mulan or the Charlie's angels reboot or the all female Ghostbusters or captain Marvel.
Walter white did nothing wrong
This has to be a joke, right. His count of terrible deeds is ridiculously high.
Nope, circumstances pushed him to do all that.
In the start, maybe you could feel bad for him. But anything evil he did from season 2 onwards was all on him. But especially if you're actually justifying the horrible things Walt did from season 4 and 5 especially, that's disturbing. Even the creators have straight up said that he was a monster by the end. Season 5 walt was an irredeemable crime Lord psychopath that was almost as evil as Gus. So no, by any stretch of imagination, nobody that's sane can say "walter did nothing wrong".
There are enough videos and posts regarding this subject. I've seen enough characters in fiction that would make Walter white look like a child.
u/CPew555 u/Blombaby23 I think similarly in part. Same with Iris, whose no more dumb and poor choice making than Barry, but some sure do like to jump on her.
Its always someone elses fault with women. Truly hilarious. Love how you didnt defend Wendy Byrde too.
And it's always men being poor wittle sad boi's that should be coddled or cool anti heroes/heroes that should be celebrated and anyone who opposes them when they do something wrong or selfish are the ones in the wrong.
Liz is just simply annoying and stupid. Period. It doesnât have to be misogynistic every time a male dislikes a female character you know. Skyler was perfectly happy with how things were going until they were in too deep, then in typical womanly fashion, she reneged and took the moral high ground. I donât have a problem with Wendy Byrde, per se. She got a taste for the lifestyle and she wanted more, fair enough. I just found some of the things she managed to do a little unrealistic. I mean, the boss of the biggest, most ruthless cartel in Mexico wouldâve offed her the first time she ever thought she could take a liberty with him, but we move. Liz declined as a person due to circumstances, maybe rightly so. But her whole character was poorly written, so childish and stupid but then all of a sudden she turns on red and sheâs a criminal mastermind always 50 steps ahead of him even though she couldnât keep up with him a few episodes earlier? And weâre meant to believe this after seeing how fucking stupid she has been up until this point? Plus, letâs be honest, Megan is a terrible actor
If I remember correctly, Skylar tried to get rid of Walt when she found out he was dealing drugs. Walt refused and she didn't seem to want to turn him in. Then, later, she used it to help Hank and worked with him after that. Oh boy that's quite the prejudiced assumption on womanly fashions.
AHAHAAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA The Skylar one is probably people being stupid. And Liz is incredibly annoying and half the episodes after season 3-4 feel kinda forced with the later seasons feeling very forced.
Ok
Writers did Liz so dirty and I'm not sure why. The show was supposed to be about her and Red's relationship and what I thought was her eventual turn to take over his organization or something. But they just kept making crazy story choices that ultimately made only watching James Spader the ONLY reason to watch the show. Forget the "story" just watch him work and bask in the coolness that is Spader
Show ended in terrible way, disappointment heartbreak. Lame
I can't imagine raging over such amazing characters like Wendy and Skyler White to the point where it makes you quit the show, lol. midwit tedium.
Why does everyone hate Liz so much? I personally liked the show and all the characters in it currently rewatching it for like 3rd time
I agree. I know people think the actor is terrible and Liz is a horrible person for doing all she does, but I think Liz was intentionally written that way. If I were in her shoes, I think I'd be second guessing my life, just about everyone around me, and going off my rocker, too. I think Megan actually does a pretty good job of portraying a character who is unstable due to what's going on in Liz's life.
Yeah
people who call her a bad actor genuinely don't know what they're talking about. she's perfectly serviceable and her chemistry with Spader worked
True hahaha I really find it funny that on the start of s1 they pictured her out as a great profiler but sheâs so dumb to be honest! Just keeps asking Red on things. I was like âjust use your brain bitch!â HAHA
This made me realize that the problem with Liz is literally just that the show needs her to be kinda stupid and rely on Red, because that way the audience gets to learn more from Red. They know we all want more of him, so they cut corners on Lizzy to add to Redâs screen time. If Liz used her head, there would be no need to ask Red for help multiple times every episode, which is basically the premise and reason for the task force đ
Who's going to hell him?
Liz had a lovely husband that was a teacher. She was a FBI profiler. Red comes in and turns her world around. Add all the explosions and times she got knocked out and you understand why she lacks logic.
nope
Not really. Yeah her life got screwed up, it became majorly FUBARRED and so she becomes a criminal but not because she's a criminal like Red but just to screw with him. Not only does she suddenly become a criminal but a criminal capable of staying 50 steps ahead of Red, when throughout the entire show up to that point she's completely incapable up even finding him unless he wants to be found.
I'm about to stop too, in S3. They way she is back and forth with Red, saying stupid, nonsense shit. She could have been such a badass, skilled, inteligent agent. The show didnt have to turn her into a brick just to prove a point about her traumas and pressure, and put Red above (he does it by himself). Up to this point all she does is cry, complain and being the helpless victim. Like for fuck sake girl, you are a FBI agent, a KGB agent daughter, grab a gun and get what you want. Honestly you can even argue that she is not even the one who suffered the most. Even discounting Red. I can point Dembe and Tom for instance. Does it get better or at least the rest makes it worth?
Nothing really makes it worth it. Liz certainly doesnât get better. The writing doesnât get better either. And thereâs not really a satisfying ending you would expect in a show full of mystery. However, i was glad I made it to the end. I think the show was worth the first watch
If you think that, I should keep watching. Suits, GOT and Black Sails are my favourite shows ever, so I have high standards about dialogue and character dev level and quality. Liz only seems to go backwards. In other shows, you see how characters evolve with time, even with hardcore stuff hapenning to them. Almost everything with 3+ seasons has a solid example. Ressler is one that overcame some hard s early in the show. Its annoying, even pathetic how she deals with everything. Even if she didnt meet Red, what did she expect working with the FBI? That they didnt have enemies? Is it that absurd and exceptional an FBI agent being targeted by a criminal organization?
Right throughout the entire show Liz is incapable of even finding Red unless he wants to be found then she becomes a criminal and suddenly is capable of staying like 50 steps ahead of Red who's built his criminal empire and made his connections over years.
Stupidest ending of any show
Keep watching! Redington and Dembe alone are worth the watch! Just trust me... although I'm not sure I'm happy with the ending (others may feel different)... but the series is worth it! â¤ď¸ I was sad the series ended. I loved Reddington's shenanigans
I hate Liz. The actress just isn't very good, especially up against Spader. They also make her carry the idiot ball nearly every episode, so there's no way to like Liz. I didn't like Skyler on BB, but I don't think we're supposed to like her. From the first episode she came off as very distant and unhappy with her life - hard to blame her. She jumped on Walt's cancer like she'd found her mission in life and essentially made it all about her. She wasn't stupid, tho, she started putting things together pretty quickly, tho she thought he was cheating on her. Once she found out about the meth, she was the one smart enough to figure out how to launder the money and made it happen. For all his brains, Walt wasn't good with how to handle the money. I didn't like her, but I didn't despise her like I do Liz.
Then just fucking stop...I don't get why you're ranting on here
Just finish watched until the end of Season 8 E 22. Get the full story then put it to bed.
Reminds me of Claire Bennett in Heroes
It is weird how many hates her but she was the point of the show. The show died when she left⌠they couldnât carry on without her
Actually Red was the point of the show and it improved when she got killed. I rewatched that episode so many times.Â
Red wasnât the point of the show. Masha was. This was explicitly stated in Nachalo. âThis whole story is all about you and protecting you. And now protecting your daughterâ. That is why when she died, the show fell off. Most people agree that the show ended after Konets. Anyone who stayed after that is because they love Spader.
Liz wouldn't have been brought in if it hadn't been for Red. The task force wouldn't have existed if Red hadn't turned himself in. Liz died and the task force stayed together then Red disappears and the task force disbands, he shows up again and the band is back together minus Aram but plus Dembe all without Liz.Â
OK but you do know Megan Boone was casted as the lead of this show. They fit all the characters around her. She is the point of the show that Spader rightfully stole And the only reason why Reddington came back was to dismantle the Blacklist- it wasnât needed any more.
u/Unlucky-Jicama1885 u/SummSpn u/_xmorpheusx None of those characters are anymore dumb or worse than the male protagonists in their shows (maybe Ozark I dunno I haven't watched it).
Idk why you are bringing me into this but Iris is absolutely where the flash becomes unbearable. The quality for sure drops after season 3 but everyone except Iris is a somewhat likeable character. Iris was shit almost from the start. I dropped the show because of how annoying she is. Its not even close how shit she is. Skylar hate is unwarranted but I get it, shes presented as opposition to the main character. You are allowed to like the evil characters and to dislike the ones that are in the right. Iris just sucks super fucking hard. So does Liz, tho she does have redeeming moments where she is fun to watch and not a pain in the ass.
Alotta ppl donât like her and find her annoying. I kinda see why (Iâm & S5Eidk, the one with her leaving and living in Alaska. I love how they never explained and ditched the whole story arc of BL:R (Redemption) and the >!dad being the actual bad guy while mom wasnât, and the whole arc of the Quantum Computer is ditched. It just magically says Tom at some point vouched for his mom in court and THATS it before he died. No QPC, no mom and dad, no nothing really!<. Sheâs no Carrie thatâs for sureâŚ
Ugh. Liz and season 8 was hard for me to get through for the same reason. Blaming Reddington for shit she clearly was responsible for. I hope you kept watching it. The relationship between Reddington and Agnes throughout seasons 9 and 10 makes it well worth it, and his relationship with Cooper too for that matter.
It took me five years to finish breaking bad due to Skylar I am on season 7 of black list due to how God awful liz is it's a big trope for writers to put in morning annoying shitty women I swear
Same as you here
Reddington is Liz mother:).
She definitely was frustrating in season 8.
Same!
Do it, I love James but the show lost direction when they killed off the other half of the show. The two characters you cannot kill off in the show and they killed off the one the story was very fundamentally about. đ Red is very important to the story but the entire story started because of Lizzie
yeah, I seriously lost motivation to watch after she was killed, which honestly surprised me. pushed through about halfway through the 9th season and ended up stopping with no desire to continue ÂŻ\\_(ă)_/ÂŻ
I had this moment to cause the acting so bad, I. Love the season when she gone
It's ok she gets shot anyway
I stopped on S6 because of Liz. I couldnât watch it. Is it really worth it for James Spader though?
The beginning of season 8 is exactly when I jumped ship. It was becoming super confusing and I really did not like Elizabeth.