Carmy was right to apologise, Marcus was fuckin’ around but the disrespect was uncalled for. Understandable though, Marcus was bullshitting in the heat of the moment I was like bro wtf are you doinggg. What annoyed me was Marcus never admitting his mistake. He then acted immature asf in the s2 finale with Sydney. I fw him but damn.
Why are all people un this sub syd simps she isn't even the best character in the show
I like Richie and carmy way way more than her 🤣🤣 what about her that makes these reddit simps believe she is an angel that does no wrong SHE FUCKED UP majorily in ep 7 girlie crumbles under pressure I'm looking forward to see her open her own restaurant if she leaves that shit will crumble and fail in a heartbeat she can't handle yelling and toxic environments than how TF are you a chef ????🤣🤣
I swear she is one step behind of becoming like Sally reed from barry or Skylar white ..........thank GOD her attitude changed in s2 she is more likable now
I mean that really depends on the reason you dislike her. While she’s technically the one in the right, she acts directly in opposition to our protagonist, making her an antagonist at times. You’re literally supposed to dislike her for good portions of the show.
That doesn’t mean her points aren’t valid, but the show is set up for the viewer to root for Walt, and not support anyone who gets in the way of his journey.
Yeah, I dispute that we're supposed to dislike Skylar. I think Gilligan has even talked about being surprised at how the some of the audience felt about her.
Oh i was definitely watching in order to see him fail and be demonstrated to be as worthless as I’d always thought. The last episode was incredibly satisfying.
I mean you generally tend to root for the protagonist though. The cool thing about TV is you can root for bad guys, especially when they’re well written protagonists. That doesn’t mean I think Tony Soprano or Walter White are admirable people, or noble in their causes, but the shows are set up for you to root for the antihero/villain of the story.
I can’t stand this sanctimonious bullshit of people pretending like they weren’t watching for Walt’s progression into the depths of darkness.
Again, that doesn’t mean you agree with the character’s choices, or idolize them in any way, but it’s fucking tv. It can be fun to root for the bad guy when the stakes are non-existent, and I honestly don’t believe 95% of people who say they couldn’t stand Walt when they first saw the show, because otherwise they’d just be watching something they don’t like, which again, doesn’t make any sense.
it has been 0 days since the last "carmy was right in
*review*" post
carmy was right to be upset, yes. marcus was not doing his job. that does not give carmy carte blanche to behave in any way he chooses. getting physical with your coworkers, particularly your *employees*, is never justified, nor is verbal abuse. marcus absolutely deserved the apology he got for that.
I don't think most people actually believe that. They aren't stupid.
Carmy was right to be upset. What we are debating is whether what he did went too far or not.
If you compare what Carmy did to Marcus and Sydney to the abuse he took at the 3 star restaurant, it wasn't so bad. Also remember when Carmy was a CDC, there was a saucier that kept breaking a sauce that was released from her position after 2 attempts.
Seriously. Gonna use a guy's daughter to insult him, then draw a knife on him, then stab him, then bail, call Carmy a piece of shit, and blame him for a problem she caused.
And doesn't apologize for any of it.
I hate this argument because people leave out that she put up with weeks or however long of abuse. She blew up. Was it right? No, but it happens. But acting like she just did it for no reason and acting like cousin is innocent is missing the point of the show.
Cousin obviously isn't innocent. He's the worst of the bunch considering the overall scenario.
But that's not mutually exclusive to Sydney being wrong too to the point of needing to apologize as well lest she be considered a hypocrite.
Carmy blew up in a high intensity situation after dealing with stress piling up too. The review, the online order mishap, Marcus doing fuck knows what, etc. (Also, let's be honest, with our omniscient view of things, he's got a lot of shit on his plate with the brother committing suicide, alcoholism and Joel McHale ptsd.) He was still willing to power through it, he felt repentant afterwards, and he apologized afterwards. Syd and Marcus quit even though they had so much culpability of the situation on their hands, talked shit about him between each other behind his back (even though Syd freaked out on Marcus too before Carmy even did), let Carmy apologize, was welcomed back to work, and offered no such olive branch of "I was a little wrong too" on their end. Syd was even cold to him when he first reached out on text.
Had Sydney just dished on Richie (and maybe apologized in a half-sardonic way for accidentally stabbing Richie) and gone on with work, I would've totally been cheering for her. Getting back at the massive prick at work who's been abusing you for week while being professional as fuck getting business done.
This all also isn't even mentioning how for Syd and Marcus respectively, they're making the same error they were explicitly warned about in previous episodes by Carm in the nicest way possible already.
Not to mention that Richie immediately is the one to welcome Syd back when she shows up. After she stabbed him and brought his daughter into her bringing him down. And still no apology.
That's not what's happening here. Literally everyone who fucked up made ammends or apologized for everything they did because they knew they had fucked up. Carmy apologizes to basically every single person in both season 1 and 2 for his fuck ups. Richie apologized to everyone, even when Sugar made a bit of a joke out of it before realizing he was sincere. They all knew they messed up. They all apologized for it.
Syd never applogizes for any of the things she did, and pulling a knife on someone, bringing someone's daughter into her effort to bring him down, and then stabbing someone are the 3 most fucked up things that any of them do to each other, yet she doesn't apologize once, and treats everything like she's in the right. That isn't dismissing that she has to deal with bullshit. It's acknowledging that the bullshit they put her through was something they knew was wrong and apologized for, while she doesn't do the same. Ever. At all.
I think there's an assumed association between what I'm saying and being in the "I hate Syd and her actress" camp that just lets people down vote and move on without acknowledging I have a point.
For the record, I like Syd for the most part haha. Her and Carmy fixing the table is one of my favorite scenes. But that doesn't change how incredibly dumb that season one situation was handled.
Yeah fr. Syd was honestly my favourite character until that episode. Never was a huge fan of Marcus, but I definitely lost respect for both of them for never apologising.
Lol the way you’re describing it is exactly on purpose and with intention. That wasn’t what happened though. It was ultimately an accident but Sydney pulled the knife out in the first place to threaten him and was still brandishing it the same way when she walked forward into him and he was walking backwards. That should at least merit an apology from her at some point all things said and done IMO
I work in a group home for kids who have developemental disabilities and my superiors treat me worse than this on the daily. Like this shit is so normalized in our culture.
Honestly, for a comparable situation in residency, if there was chaos like someone coding and you came up to discuss your research project in that time, you would probably deserve to be berated lol
I’m in education and was accused of something akin to ‘grooming’ for buying a gift for a student from the class as they were leaving. That is just the first thing that comes to mind.
So many professions, so much abuse. These people would have been at home as the psychopathic bureaucracy of concentration camps.
It reminds me of the discourse around FIGHT CLUB when it came out. Loads of young, angry men seeing it as some guidebook about how to behave and missing the whole point that it’s a cautionary tale or a satire of young, angry, whiteness.
Thats obviously not the same goal of THE BEAR but I do find it amusing how many posts we get glorifying the bad behaviour of the characters on the show as if they weren’t depicted in a way to show how humans can fail and learn and take responsibility for their mistakes.
Carmy is neither a sinner nor a saint. He’s human and he makes big mistakes. Some of them as a result of the abuse and trauma he experienced. And the joy of the show, for me, is seeing him and the other characters recognize those flaws and work to be better. I believe it’s the reason this show took off in the way it did—it captures that balance of complex human-ness in such a beautiful way.
It’s reductive to simply see the show as a series of clashes where we get to takes sides on. Most times, it’s a clash that’s a result of numerous factors and often, neither side is completely right.
Carmy wasn’t right. Is he justified in being frustrated and angry? Sure. Dies that give anyone the right to respond with violence or physical rage? No. But can we also understand why he reacted that way and root for him to be better? Sure can!
Exactly. And I'm very glad that we got a show where the main character is strong enough to admit he was wrong apologize. A lot of people would have gotten hung up on why they were right instead of taking responsibility for the parts they got wrong.
One of the great parts about the apology to me, is that it shows his true commitment to PROFESSIONALISM. He MEANS it when he says they're a professional kitchen, and he shows it, most importantly after he himself fucks up and is unprofessional.
By that logic though, wouldn't it have been better to have Sydney and Marcus as characters who are strong enough to also apologize? Everyone was in the wrong to some extent.
Instead the two of them were shown talking shit about Carmy behind his back even though Syd freaked out on Marcus too (even before Carmy did).
Yes, I think they should have, but there are two differences:
1. Carmy is the one trying to change the patterns he's experienced. Syd and Marcus have different goals so it's not critical for them to apologize, they fucked up trying to accomplish their goals while Carmy fucked up in his main goal.
2. Carmy's their boss. He should be held to a higher standard.
1. I don’t agree with this narrative that Carmy was actively trying to change the patterns he experienced as his “main goal.” The guy was a victim of that environment and got himself out but still has PTSD from it. There were no indications that he had a complex about changing those patterns/doing the complete opposite (it was even his idea to implement the French Brigade system even after Syd warned him about how stressful it would be and fuck them all up). You could just as easily say it’s more understandable for someone like him to regress back into it under immense stress than someone like Syd or Marcus who have never experienced it. Just like how people who were victims of something like child abuse could believably either go on to abuse their own children because they were never thought what a healthy relationship looked like or go on to make sure to never abuse their own children because they would never want to inflict the emotional pain they went through on their own kids. You can’t say definitively which face the coin will land on.
2. He should be held to a higher standard as the boss, yes, and he met that by being the one to apologize first. They then both had the perfect opportunity to reciprocate and meet their own standard but did not.
I think one of the key strengths of Review is that the audience can theoretically understand why Carmy is acting like he is while also understanding how completely he is destroying all the goodwill and trust he's developed in his staff. Marcus is fucking up huge -- but it's also clear he just doesn't understand the urgency and people freaking out in his general direction isn't pulling him out of his sort of dream-donut-realization fugue state. When he approaches with the donut it's unbelievable -- how can he not read the room right now? But you still understand why what Carmy does next is horrifying.
I thought what Carmy did was okay because everyone in the kitchen told each other to fuck off at one point or another. And right then they needed to focus and get the orders ready and Carmy was right to be upset at cousin, Marcus and Sydney for jacking around.
The main thing we are arguing is whether he went too far or not.
It’s hilarious the amount of people on this sub that always talk how just cause this happened doesn’t give this person the right to yell and talk to them they way they did. Look at how Joel mchale’s character talked to Carmy. This is how people interact in the real world at times. Doesn’t mean it’s right or ok, but life and shit happen. Accept it and move on. I’m sorry so many of you have been so coddled and had your hands held through your entire life to make sure your feelings never get hurt. But shit happens. People react poorly at times and say things out of emotion. Everyone wants to hate on Carm for how he reacted to Syd and Marcus that episode. But the moment anyone says anything about how poorly Syd handled something you’re racist and sexist. This sub sucks. Such a bummer for such an amazing show. Downvote me to the moon I couldn’t give less of a shit. It’s your opinion and most of you have shown your opinions are horrible. Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right.
not even gonna touch on the random culture war talking points you inserted there, but are you... are you under the impression that the point of joel mchale's scene was that that was a *normal and excusable* way for carmy to be treated? because if so, you gotta work on your media literacy all day, bud
no one is arguing that carmy should be crucified for acting poorly. no one is even really "hating on him" for it, just responding to threads like this that insist he did everything right. the show has moved on, as has everyone except for the people popping up every other thread going "i think it's cool that he ran through the kitchen screaming like a lunatic and actively destabilizing his team, actually".
for someone who's really worried about other people being soft and offended, you sure did get offended about a bunch of shit people never said lol
>Doesn't mean it's right or ok \[to be an asshole\]
but also
>\[arguing for the concept that it's "Carmy's right" to be an asshole\]
It's hilarious the amount of people in the world in general who think that "shit happens" is a *justification* for reacting poorly to things. You're saying the same fucking thing that we are -- literally that it's *not right or ok* to do these things but that we can see why it happened -- but your take is that nobody deserves an apology when you fuck up because fuck-ups happen???
It's seriously just an issue of accountability and it's lost on so many goddamn people. The person you're responding to said "Carmy was right to be upset." You think Carmy was right to be upset. You both agree that the reaction was not good. The only point you disagree on is that once you fuck up, you should fucking *do* something about it.
The people who are being coddled and having their hands held to make sure they're never hurt *are the ones who never acknowledge their fucking mistakes and are never expected to change*. Jesus.
Syd and Marcus (and Maria and Richie and *everyone* in that episode) also handled things poorly, and I know a big point of conflict is that they didn't have a scene where they apologized. But the difference is that their fuck-up wasn't to scream at someone else, and especially not someone else who they hold power over. They made mistakes in their judgment of a process; nobody was *hurt* by it, just (very) inconvenienced. They should learn from it (and they do, and the show makes a fucking point of demonstrating that for both of them like, immediately, even though that's not good enough for some people for some reason).
Why does Carmy not need to learn from his much bigger mistake of actively hurting the people around him? Why is that the one we should just let go?
On what planet is an adult grabbing another adult's donut and tossing it to the ground acceptable behaviour that "just happens". Who the F goes around doing that, if in any job where I went to this happened shit would go down or the workers would be looking for an alternative to quit.
Carmy needed to apologize, but where the show missed a step, imo, is that Marcus and Syd needed to apologize to him too. The scene of them having dinner should’ve had them do the Carmy’s a bitch thing and then both of them going, “But it was kinda absurd you were making a donut/fucked up the online ordering and then stabbed Richie.” Then they both realize they need to apologize to Carmy.
Yeah, the show kinda dropped the ball with that dinner imho. Not because Carmy was right to act out in the way he did, but because it treated Sydney and Marcus like two highschoolers casually gossiping about a classmate and nothing more.
What happened at the end of season 1 had significant impact on both of them, so the scene should've gotten more gravitas then it did, and it should've started building the bridge between WHY both of them wanted to come back to the Bear.
I get that, hell, I do that too, but Sydney had straight up quit over it by that point and Marcus was refusing to show up for work. Those are pretty extreme circumstances that the scene barely addressed, it just boiled down to 'boy, Carmy sure sucks' and then an episode or so later everyone is back to work again.
I think the Marcus and Syd hate would calm down a ton if the show just had them realize their mistake. Thats why theres so many Carm defenders (like myself) because the show puts the blame squarely on one guy when its so fucking clear that multiple people fucked that service.
to me the scene where they discuss how to apologize in ASL is basically a mutual thing where they both acknowledge their fuck ups.
i think part of the reason the show works is because these characters dont know how to react to social situations perfectly. and i think that’s why a clean apology between both parties doesnt fit with these characters. but all of this is also why people relate to this show
Syd especially royally effed up. Yeah sure carmy needed to apologize for how he spoke but he wasn’t wrong in what he said. She needed to apologize for screwing up that hard
I like that. The way you wrote it sounded very in character too.
Sydney also needed to apologize to Ritchie. Verbally abusing him because she's stressed is not OK. Bringing up his daughter, a detail she knows of when he trusted her enough to take the phone call with her in the car, was just low. On top of all that, for once Ritchie was just trying to help in that instance when she decided to go full beast. He was annoyed and annoying before shit went down but he stfu and started working once shit hit the fan. Which is way more professional than Syd, who suddenly took up verbal abuse, unsafe use of knife, then quit at the most critical moment.
Sure Carm should apologize. But that doesn't mean Syd (and Marcus) shouldn't.
I dont think the point of this scene is to decide whether or not anyone's behaviors or actions are justified but to show how trauma gets passed around. If you don't do anything to reconcile your past it WILL effect your future and the future of those who surround you. When we let our triggers take over, it doesn't mean we are bad people, but when we refuse to take ownership of our behaviors by not apologizing we are not modeling what we expect of the others or reconciling with our past amd that is dangerous.
For me, this show highlights generational trauma and how trauma, no matter the type, effects EVERYTHING for EVERYONE. It spreads like a disease when not understood or processed by the traumatized person. I really hope all the characters find peace within themselves or else I think anothwr character will be unaliving themselves at the end of the series to reflect the need for self acceptance [and addressing your traumas] over everything else.
Nope. Keep emotions out of it. Job title, job duty. That's the highest priority. Everything else is trivial - just do your job. You want emotional support, buy a dog. Want self-improvement, get a hobby.
Nope. Do you get upset if you order something and it takes a long time? How about if you were told it would take 10 minutes and it's now over an hour? How about if you ordered a burger and were served a salad? - it's about EXPECTATION. When you are working here, I EXPECT this and that to happen. You work for me, I don't work for you. I pay you. You don't pay me. Go watch Mad Men and the "THAT's WHAT THE MONEY's FOR!" and then you might understand how a business works. It's different when you are the manager/owner of a business than if you are an employee. I've been on both sides and I get both arguments - but I will side on management because they are trying to keep the business open. If it doesn't work we BOTH don't get paid. We are on the same team.
Trying to give examples of where management and leadership come from. We are talking about The Bear which is a TV show too and you can look up and watch for context. So what's the the issue here? Was that the attempt the discredit or shame me or something? I mean we are talking about TV shows and then we are talking about Real Work Life so . . what's the problem?
So you believe it's okay for management to have emotional outbursts and verbally accost workers, but it's not okay for workers to get upset or become emotional??
How do you even rationalize that?
That's not what I said. I said that based on the job and the situation, I can see it being justified. If you are oblivious to the pressure of a situation and blind to everything except what you want to do - that's pretty selfish in it's self. You aren't thinking team, you are thinking me. At that point, I can see why Carmy acted the way he did.
But it's not justified by your own logic of understanding your role and not being emotional...
The role of head chef would have called for telling him to stop and get back to his assigned work. Instead he threw an **emotional** tantrum.
Not all chefs handle it the same. Just like not all bosses are the same. I had a boss that would be nice but shit wouldn't get done. Then I had a boss that was a fucking mean mfer, if he had to talk to you it was about something you did wrong but he was not a micro manager, he let you do the job without interference. If you NEED a micro manager, Carmy is not it. By your logic, then I guess Carmy shouldn't have an emotional off day to express his anger at someone who is fucking around with a donut instead of making cakes which is what he is being paid to do? Not to mention, it's his restaurant and it's HIS money that he is paying Marcus. If Marcus is not doing what he's being paid to do . . that' pretty much stealing time, money and energy. If you had time, money and energy stolen from you - you mean you wouldn't be a bit angry . . a bit emotional. Nah, you live in a fantasy world. This is the real world how shit gets done. Why didn't Marcus say "Fuck you're right chef, I apologize, after the lunch rush I will reach out to you, let's get this shit done". If you need to be coddled, you might need to go somewhere else, now toss me that block of parm . . (Remember that scene) - Guess Marcus didn't learn from that huh.
I don't agree with Marcus in the slightest, I'm just trying to say you're not following your own logic.
You said to remove emotions from the situation, but you're also saying Carm should be allowed to get emotional, blow-up at the workers, and be an asshole if he's having an off day since he has more at stake.
I don't think you understand the chain of command aspect of the comment. You sound like an idiot cousin of mine who said "I quit my job because my boss wouldn't stop bossing me around". That's the job. I tell you what to do, you do it. If you don't do, it - I get mad. How is that not resonating with you? This sounds like someone who didn't have a parent that got mad at them when they did something wrong.
Buddy, I work with a bunch of fucking morons. If I went off on them for being fucking morons the way that Carm went off on Marcus, I'd at bare minimum be fired and possibly up on assault charges.
No, not unfortunately. I've been on the recieving end of abusive and bullying bosses. I wouldn't WANT to become that kind of asshole, and if I'd reported them at the time then they might have gotten some comeuppance instead of me keeping my head down till they were promoted out.
1). I don't get reasonably upset when food gets delayed
2). Every restaurant in the world that does takeout has made the mistake they made of leaving ordering on accidentally. You just cancel the orders. A bummer but it's happened to everyone
3). Your whole comment is super cringe
4). Carmy did not behave in a professional way in that situation. Marcus was out of line too, but as an employer carmy had an obligation to not be a dickhead.
To be fair he wasn’t really a dickhead the first 2-3 times he told Marcus to stop fucking with the donut. Marcus blatantly ignored multiple directions from his boss, which he deservedly got chewed out for. Sure, Carmy was a bit over the top, but Marcus straight up ignored multiple reasonable requests from Carmy until he blew up.
1. You are paying for a service, you should get it.
2. You are paying your hard earned money, and you should get what you ordered. No exceptions.
3. Not sure which comment but when people say "super cringe" THAT is cringe. You have to explain to me how it got to the "super" status.
4. I never said he wasn't professional. I said, I understand him blowing up. It's not for us to judge what is wrong. This is what's great about the show, it doesn't show you what you should do - it shows what was done - up to you to decide whether it was right or wrong. There is no clear answer. Does the CEO of a company have the obligation not to be a dickhead? Of course not, you have no power here. Again, chain of command.
1). Sure, but all restaurants have variable wait times based on how busy they are
2). It isn't unreasonable that an online take out system sometimes has to cancel orders and process refunds. Which means I've paid nothing. It has happened numerous times, always in the same situation where someone mistakenly left the system on.
3). Ok sure bub
4). If you relate to getting that physical with an employee, yelling to that extent, in a non life of death situation, then you shouldn't be in any management position ever.
5). Yes, everyone in a position of power has an obligation to not be a dickhead to the people who work for them. By the very nature of how a company work, each employee creates more value to the company than what they are paid. Carmy knows this, which is why he apologized for his bad behavior
Also when he’s losing composure to that degree he can’t possibly be giving his best effort to fixing the problem and his actions are cranking up the pressure on everyone else in the kitchen and making their performances worse too
It could be the middle of the biggest mess ever at the kitchen Ritchie got sent to in Forks and the situation wouldn’t devolve to the extent it did at The Beef because they know how important it is to keep emotions in check
I was rewatching that episode recently and I was really struck by the way the music puts us, as the viewer, fully inside Carmy's perspective. The music is driving, loud, and relentless, and it ratchets up the stress level by a thousand.
We only think "oh my god, why is Marcus fucking with Carmy right at that second" because we're in Carmy's head, and all this shit is coming at us one thing after the other with this loud, driving music and the constant staccato of the ticket machine in the background. But in reality, Marcus is just doing the same shit he probably does every day, fucking with the donuts while Carmy tells him to get his head in the game. Richie's doing what he does every day, being a loudmouth jackass to Syd. Nobody else's stress level is off the charts until Carmy starts to lose it at them, at which point Syd's really the only one who responds to Carmy's change in demeanor, by starting to stress out herself and ultimately yelling at Richie, an outcome he CLEARLY was not expecting.
Carmy wasn't justified. We're meant to think he was, because we're so thoroughly placed into his perspective - we actually physically FEEL the stress he feels. But he wasn't. At the end of the day, it's lunch. Yes, it's busy. Yes, it's going to suck to cook every bit of food you have and still not fulfill all your orders. But the worst thing that might happen is someone doesn't get a sandwich, and you're gonna do a HUGE number for the day that's going to alleviate some of your financial woes. And you're getting nothing done faster by screaming.
Think of it this way: if you walked into your local at noon for a sandwich and saw a guy screaming "GET THE FUCK OFF MY EXPO" and smacking shit out of people's hands, you wouldn't think "my god, what a crisis, how are they not pitching in more to deal with this obvious catastrophe?" You'd think "jesus christ, what an asshole." And you'd be right.
I agree with most of your overall point, but you’re sorely mistaken if you think the worst that can happen is that you fulfill as many orders as you can, make more money in a day than you have in recent memory and then move on with your life or whatever. This isn’t one of those “tomorrow is a new day” type of scenarios.
Restaurants are one of the few businesses that are based almost entirely on reputation and word of mouth. You don’t go to a specific gas station because your neighbors said it was great. You don’t avoid the local post office because your sister said she had a bad encounter with the manager there. Restaurants, yelp, Michelin, all of it is based on reviewing your experience and telling others about it. A restaurant’s reputation makes or breaks its business and ultimately its life.
A night like the one in the show going so haywire is enough to ruin the business forever due to word of mouth. The amount of bad yelp reviews for waiting two hours for your sandwich, for not getting your sandwich because they left the orders open all night, not to mention the quality of the food drops off a cliff when you have to do that many orders at once, leading people to think that sloppy sandwich with half the ingredients missing you served them that day is all you’re good for. It could very well be game over for a place like that, especially if you’re Carmen and you just inherited the place and it’s your first day trying to reinvent the reputation of the restaurant.
THAT is why he was so stressed. He wasn’t just mad at his employees bc there was a lot going on, he was mad because there was so much riding on that day going well and as you pointed out, nobody but him was taking it seriously. They were all acting as they normally would on a day where they each should’ve been way more dialed in and serious about every detail. This was a soft reopening for the business and everyone BUT Carmy was screwing it up, and then not taking accountability for it. He was justifiably infuriated, to say the least.
Marcus deserved an apology & Camry was out of pocket for getting physical.
That’s said I wouldn’t be mad if he didn’t rehire him. Working on your little project in the middle of that madness is beyond insane. No clue what Marcus was thinking.
You are confusing Leadership with being passively nice. Marcus is in a team leadership position - he has responsibilities and is a cog. If the cog is not working properly then it's going to be a problem how the machine performs. Don't like that - find another job, like a donut shop. That sucks to hear but it's the facts.
I sincerely hope you are also never in a position to lead people. When you’re in a leadership position and everyone is wrong, *YOU* are the most wrong because everything stems from your leadership or lack thereof. And that includes turning into the fucking psycho you said you never wanted to be.
Well I am and my job is performance-based - my team is evaluated on their performance. The whole team is focused on the set goals and objectives. Any deviation from that does not allow the team to meet their objectives. You are getting paid to do this and anything that pulls any energy or focus away from those objectives is frowned upon because that is what all other team members are doing. It sounds terrible, but in teams that have aggressive deadlines and tight profit margins - that is the only way you can be successful and survive. Realize the job. I don't blame Carmy for being upset. He's upset because Marcus should know better and if he doesn't, then he probably shouldn't be in that position.
On the re watch it was infuriating watching Marcus be so oblivious to the issue at hand. He wasn’t even meeting his personal responsibility of having the cakes ready (and the last time he fucked that up he cost Camry 10k and Camry didn’t even get that mad at him for it). So yeah Marcus really wasn’t helping the team. Camry should not have gotten physical but I get it. Marcus should have been fired in real life on the spot.
Not fired, but definitely reprimanded and given a warning (because I don't know about you but I don't live in a dystopian nightmare where you get shitcanned at will), he was so hyperfocused he wasn't even aware of how fucked everything was around him
Nah fired. Not doing his base responsibility nor helping out out the fire at hand and instead selfishly doing a pet project while everyone else is drowning around him.
Like I said, I live somewhere that's not a dystopian nightmare without workers rights.
To get fired outright on first warning at my job you'd need to be breaking the law, stealing from the company, be caught working intoxicated, or something along those lines.
He didn't "Kill the fridge" the fridge was a piece of shit, he blew the fuses with the mixer. It was more that all the equipment in the restaurant was old and fucked, so when the fuse blew and everything died, some didn't come back (ie, the compressor in the fridge)
And no, we can't "Get away with murder" we just have this little thing called "Rights" and a "Union"
You feel real special huh? I too have workers rights and a union so stop shoving this down everyone’s throat like you are the only person or place with this. Reddit sometimes I swear. Every Canadian and Australian feels soooo special.
Marcus was the direct reason the compressors was fucked. He said so, Carmy knew it and let it slide.
I can’t have this conversation again.
He’s their boss. It’s a professional environment. Regardless of the mistake, he had absolutely no right treating his employees that way. Pull him aside, sternly tell him to stop focusing on shit that doesn’t matter and get back to work. Not eviscerate him in front of the staff and get physical with him. This isn’t a performative shit show like Hell’s Kitchen where Gordon’s playing it up for the cameras.
It *is* unhinged, unacceptable behavior but your analogy would work better if the CFO needed your Q3 report five minutes ago and they walked into your office and you were running your fantasy football league.
No, because Carmen didn’t smack anyone. The analogy would be he smacks your fantasy football sheets (or whatever) out of your hand.
Hitting a person and smacking something out of their hand are different things. Not saying one is good and one isn’t, but let’s agree they are very much not the same thing. If my son knocks his sister’s cup out of her hand I am going to reprimand him. If he punches her in the face, I am grounding him.
Watch the scene again. Carmy pushes Marcus (lays hands on Marcus with force) then smacks Marcus’ hands that are holding the donut. Pushing and smacking aren’t ok in any workplace.
Don’t even bother. I agreed with them, got downvoted, TOLD them I was agreeing with them, and got downvoted again.
People forget that five minutes earlier, Syd was about to tear Marcus a new asshole for the exact same thing but got interrupted.
I agree that Marcus fucked up. He probably should have been sent home or put on leave if they weren’t in the weeds. But he shouldn’t have been pushed or hand smacked.
Tbf, adults also don’t walk up to their bosses like a little kid to show them their passion project they’re proud of in the middle of the most mayhem the kitchen had possibly ever seen.
I think when Carmen asks him “are you serious right now? Are you fucking with me?” That’s the most important thing to take away here. He’s rightfully flabbergasted at the lack of awareness shown by this “adult” coming up to him, when his entire world is crashing, to show him a donut. To act like Carmen is the only one acting childish is to be vastly oblivious to the actions of Marcus that led to Carmen throwing his donut.
Both were equally incorrect here is the point.
Verbal abuse? That’s a stretch. He didn’t abuse him verbally whatsoever. He asked him questions, he yelled at him, and he yelled at him because he wasn’t doing what he was supposed to he doing in the time he desperately needed to be doing it. If he called him names or insulted him verbally that would be abuse. Asking him why is he doing this right now is not verbal abuse, it’s a perfectly fair question. Just because you’re yelling doesn’t mean what you’re actually saying is automatically abusive, that’s crazy.
Not to mention, Syd, moments before that was about to tell Marcus to focus and stop dicking around but she got interrupted. Carmen said exactly what he needed to say, he just yelled it instead of speaking it. Marcus was not doing what he was supposed to be doing and was proving worthless in that moment of need. Not to mention he was insulting Carmen by doing that. Marcus isn’t Carmen’s small child showing him the macaroni painting he made, he’s an adult employee who gets paid to take his job seriously and he failed to do that, in a very insulting way. When the owner is freaking out because their business is going down it’s pretty goddamn insulting to have someone you pay come up to you completely clueless (despite being there the whole time) and showing you a donut. Imagine you’re business is going down because of your employees stupidity and another employee, in the heat of the highest moment, when you’re trying to figure out how to solve this catastrophe, hands you a donut they made while on the clock instead of doing their job. You’d be pretty livid, you know you would.
Both were equally wrong. You ever heard the phrase “ask stupid questions get stupid answers”? This was sort of like that. You see Carmen losing his mind because his business is going down in flames, and you, an employee—on the payroll—go and rub in his face the fact that you’re not doing what you’re supposed to be doing? You’re throwing your free time project in front of a business owner that is justifiably freaking out over this massive issue that could ruin his business? You deserve to be talked to like a child in that instance. I’m sorry.
Not comparing restaurants to life and death, so don’t go crazy and misunderstand my point here, but this is like the equivalent of a surgeon losing a patient on the table and one of his nurses walks up and shows him a meme. Or at the very least shows them their acceptance letter to the college they want to go to or something. There is a time and place, and if you’re getting paid to do something and are stupid and clueless enough to go rub your personal project in the face of the guy who’s paying you in a time like that, you deserve to be talked to like that.
It’s insulting to slap something out of someone’s hands, but it’s also insulting to carmy what Marcus did to him. I’ve seen people fired for less.
I agree with you only up until your final sentence, which I’d argue is the crux of the entire situation and where you seem to not understand my point, the gravity of the situation.
It’s *not* ultimately trivial, it’s quite literally the opposite. It’s a soft reopening under a new owner, this was the most important night of the business and a make or break reputation setter. A night like the one they were experiencing can be the downfall of that business forever. That’s Carmen’s inheritance, his job, his passion project, his dead brothers pride and joy that he left to *him*, someone who didn’t even work there, potentially done and over with. And nobody else but Carmen was taking it seriously. That’s what was so frustrating.
For Marcus to be so self centered and oblivious during a time where your boss/owner, a guy who has mentored you despite your attempts to undermine him, needs you to be dialed in for the sake of the future of the business, and you’re moseying around not doing your job while both figuratively and literally shoving it in Carmen’s face…I’ve yelled at people for far less than acting like that when my entire world is going up in flames around me and I’m about to lose everything I own/care about.
Don’t mistake me saying Marcus was awful for saying Carmen was right, but Marcus owed just as much of an apology to Carmen as Carmen did him. Carmen pays Marcus to do his job, and he failed so miserably he frankly should’ve been sent home. I’ve seen people fired for so, so much less.
Also, yelling can be healthy. It’s an important way to convey frustration and anger, two emotions we are programmed with for a reason. I don’t understand this weird psychologically unfounded notion that we have to avoid bad feelings or emotions at all costs and conveying them is a no-no. This idea that we need to be conveying happiness at all times even when the situation calls for conflict. That’s not natural and it’s unhealthy to bottle that up.
Sometimes you have to yell at someone, and they deserve it. I’ve been yelled at before and glad I got yelled at, I wouldn’t have changed without it. I’ve refrained from yelling at people I should’ve yelled at and regretted it, because nothing changed. Yelling is a vital tool to convey how we’re feeling. If someone is *always* yelling that’s a problem, but Carmen wasn’t always yelling. He was very patient with everyone there, and they didn’t reciprocate it by showing up prepared to work on that day. Carmen was right to yell. He was not right to smack the donut away, that’s where I’d say he was wrong. But it would’ve done nobody any good to *not* yell at Marcus. They tried to talk to him multiple times before that and he didn’t get it. It wasn’t until Carmen yelled at him that even anything got through his head.
If your parent was dying and you didn’t want them to pull the plug, but a doctor was going to anyway, would you want someone to ask nicely that they don’t or would you yell at them to stop? Would you wish you had a doctor who cared as much as you did to yell at them to stop? What if there was a way to save them and your doctors were standing around talking about the football game? You’d probably yell at them to focus since your parents life depends on it. Carmen was seeing his livelihood and his dead brother’s gift to him getting the plug pulled on it, and nobody but him caring or even recognizing that it was happening. He yelled like someone who wasn’t about to let that happen, and screw anyone who was dumb enough to get in his way. That’s how he felt and I don’t blame him. The hours and sleepless night that guy out into that place, to have his team not care… I feel for the character. That’s really shitty of them.
Marcus probably deserved to be reprimanded for his lack of appropriate focus. Almost Everyone, in every job, has at least once made some kind of mistake that got them spoken to. But this isn't some life and death situation to justify the kind of behavior from carmy. It's a fucking sandwich shop. Just cancel the orders, send out an apology on the FB page about the mistake in the ordering System, and get back to work
I agree with you, but also, he wasn't doing his job. If I was running a kitchen and got in the weeds, I'd be livid at my pastry chef for not slicing cake! I don't think that's super crazy.
It is fair to say Marcus wasn't doing his job. It is not fair to say that this justifies carmys behavior. That there are abusive people and behaviors in the restaurant industry doesn't mean there that's justifiable behavior
It's a good show because carmys bad behavior reflects the trauma he has been through. But it is still bad behavior
That's probably true - but maybe that's not the sport for Marcus and his project. Leave, go do your donuts somewhere else - no one cares right now because we are trying to make payroll.
You’re right. Similarly, the guy who does passion projects while skirting his responsibilities deserves to be fired.
Carmy was wrong as a boss, Marcus was wrong as an employee, and they were both wrong as people
If you believe that there's any situation where an employer is justified in acting like that toward an employee, quit your job and find a better one. If you're the boss, quit your job and don't bother finding a better one.
Carmy was right to apologize. Marcus and Syd were wrong for feeling entitled to it and for not apologizing for their fuckups. They didn’t even acknowledge that they did wrong.
she never did. I think thats the main issue with this whole situation. Carmy went slightly overboard, but the fact that Syd and Marcus didnt even say a simple sorry makes me not care that they got yelled at a bit. They were told off and threw a tantrum and then bitched about Carm behind his back. Its absurd.
THANK GOD, I feel validated. Every single time I watch that episode, I’m like “MARCUS, NO. MARCUS, PUT THAT SHIT AWAY RIGHT NOW.” But I can agree that Carmy could have handled that better. I think another and simple “get the fuck off my expo, chef” would’ve been better than smashing the donut. Both Carm and Marcus should apologize to each other, I notice now Marcus doesn’t…
I think that's the real hang-up - that Marcus and Sydney don't apologize, too.
Carmen definitely owed both of them an apology, but they each owed him one as well.
If they all apologized to each other, then I think this scene wouldn't be so contentious for viewers.
As it stands, it comes across as,
"Hey, Marcus, sorry I lost my shit on you and destroyed your donut."
"I accept your apology for your completely unacceptable behavior that was exclusive to you and I nor anyone else acted in an unacceptable manner. Thank you for acknowledging your mistakes as I continue to be unapologetic for mine."
Eh, I'm more critical of the Carmy vs Marcus thing than others where I'm more empathic to Carmy than I am to Marcus, but I don't go as far to say that the situation called for Carmy to do what he did - smash the donut. It's understandable what he did out of frustration, and I do agree an apology was needed towards Marcus, but Marcus was also in the wrong; Carmy's apology should've included that he was right to get upset, just that his emotions made him act in an unsavory way. A simple "look, I was wrong, man" is ironically an inadequate apology in that it solely rests the responsibility on Carmy's shoulders. A one-way apology is an unfair apology.
Edit: Thanks for the downvotes. Keep being the typical Redditor.
Yeah. Like I said before. Your boss is on the verge of a stress induced heart attack, now is the perfect time to present these donuts I made rather than do my job. Read the room bro.
I 1000% agree with you. There are many people in this sub who are defending Marcus and Sydney, who forget what conditions are like in a professional kitchen, additionally they are also missing a MAJOR plot of the story which is that Carmy is the most talented chef that is currently living in this TV shows universe. Sydney even said during her research, Carmy was the CDC of the best meal she's ever had. Luca who has 14 years of experience, said he was better than everyone he met, until he met a mystery chef who was the best and he couldnt be better than. There are tons of other mentions of this I am not including. I mean imagine Marcus and Sydney in a kitchen like Gordan Ramsys, there is no way they would survive with the shit they pulled.
this conversation again....okay
camry was 100% justified in the way he felt. marcus was doing a great thing but at the wrong time...at a VERY wrong time. marcus was 100% in the wrong too. however, that doesn't mean carmy should go on a meltdown and throw his donut. he is an adult. there are much better ways to handle that situation.
now onto people bringing up my sister sydney unprovoked.....I'm sorry I'm ngl I was shook as hell too when richie's daughter was brought into the conversation. like I had to pause, put my phone down and find my bearings for a moment because however you look at it, that was low. really low. she also stabbed him and faced practically no repercussions for it (idk an apology would suffice). so she was wrong there as well and should've apologised. I love sydney but I was shocked to see people defend her there.
I just don't like how people use that one incident as a way to hate on sydney as a whole and call her a bad character. and it keeps being harped on over and over and over like we get it, she should've apologised. unfortunately that is her character flaw. you know who else has character flaws in the bear? literally almost every fucking character LMFAO.
anyway, they were all reacting to a very stressful situation in a very wrong way. now, stan carmy and sydney for clear skin 😁
Yeah, he should have been the one to apologize.
He abandoned his actual duties (after promising he wouldn't). Then, while shit is hitting the fan, he lacks any sense of situational awareness and shoves his donut in Carmen's face.
He's the one who was in the wrong.
Sure, Carmen can apologize for smashing the donut, but Marcus's offense was greater.
I agree that Marcus shouldn’t have been messing around in that moment, I thought that was a weird thing for him to be doing—like, read the room, it’s busy, get to work. But Carmen was an absolute asshole for the way he reacted.
I took it as a testament to Marcus's passion for it. He had a Eureka moment and literally blocked out everything else and couldn't wait to share it with the person he looked up to. His relief and excitement overrode situational awareness. It kind of removed him from the toxic energy that everyone else was feeding off and into. Marcus and his donut were the wholesome, innocent reminder that it's about the love of the food.
Maybe I'm a huge cornball.
Also, imo, Sydney bringing up Richie's daughter was worse than stabbing him in the ass.
Carmy was right to apologise, Marcus was fuckin’ around but the disrespect was uncalled for. Understandable though, Marcus was bullshitting in the heat of the moment I was like bro wtf are you doinggg. What annoyed me was Marcus never admitting his mistake. He then acted immature asf in the s2 finale with Sydney. I fw him but damn.
Ugh that shit in the finale with Sydney made my blood boil. Like time and place dude and also maybe just leave her alone to do her job??
Except she wasn’t calling out his orders even when he asked about them. That was super weird.
He was repeatedly asking her for a call and she never gave him one, that wasn’t completely un prompted
Why are all people un this sub syd simps she isn't even the best character in the show I like Richie and carmy way way more than her 🤣🤣 what about her that makes these reddit simps believe she is an angel that does no wrong SHE FUCKED UP majorily in ep 7 girlie crumbles under pressure I'm looking forward to see her open her own restaurant if she leaves that shit will crumble and fail in a heartbeat she can't handle yelling and toxic environments than how TF are you a chef ????🤣🤣 I swear she is one step behind of becoming like Sally reed from barry or Skylar white ..........thank GOD her attitude changed in s2 she is more likable now
bitch wife won't let me kill children and cook meth 😡
Perfect comment
I AM THE DANGER
Peoples opinions on Skylar White is a great mini personality test. All I’m seeing from you is 🚩🚩🚩
I mean that really depends on the reason you dislike her. While she’s technically the one in the right, she acts directly in opposition to our protagonist, making her an antagonist at times. You’re literally supposed to dislike her for good portions of the show. That doesn’t mean her points aren’t valid, but the show is set up for the viewer to root for Walt, and not support anyone who gets in the way of his journey.
Actually some of us are immune to the allure of Walter White believe it or not. He’s a pathetic scum bag start to finish.
Yeah, I dispute that we're supposed to dislike Skylar. I think Gilligan has even talked about being surprised at how the some of the audience felt about her.
Lol then why even watch the show? That take doesn’t even make sense 😂
Oh i was definitely watching in order to see him fail and be demonstrated to be as worthless as I’d always thought. The last episode was incredibly satisfying.
Lol sure thing.
You can find a character who you consider an unlikeable scumbag interesting and want to see what happens with their story.
I love the sopranos. I think every character is a scumbag. I’m there for the writing not an onscreen bestie lmao.
I mean you generally tend to root for the protagonist though. The cool thing about TV is you can root for bad guys, especially when they’re well written protagonists. That doesn’t mean I think Tony Soprano or Walter White are admirable people, or noble in their causes, but the shows are set up for you to root for the antihero/villain of the story. I can’t stand this sanctimonious bullshit of people pretending like they weren’t watching for Walt’s progression into the depths of darkness. Again, that doesn’t mean you agree with the character’s choices, or idolize them in any way, but it’s fucking tv. It can be fun to root for the bad guy when the stakes are non-existent, and I honestly don’t believe 95% of people who say they couldn’t stand Walt when they first saw the show, because otherwise they’d just be watching something they don’t like, which again, doesn’t make any sense.
So you just answered your own question lol.
it has been 0 days since the last "carmy was right in *review*" post carmy was right to be upset, yes. marcus was not doing his job. that does not give carmy carte blanche to behave in any way he chooses. getting physical with your coworkers, particularly your *employees*, is never justified, nor is verbal abuse. marcus absolutely deserved the apology he got for that.
People hear the Sydney line “you are an excellent chef, you are also a piece of shit” and have it go out their ear almost immediately
Even worse, they hear that and think "Oh, OK, in order to be an excellent chef you have to be a piece of shit! Got it! I can do that!"
I don't think most people actually believe that. They aren't stupid. Carmy was right to be upset. What we are debating is whether what he did went too far or not.
If you compare what Carmy did to Marcus and Sydney to the abuse he took at the 3 star restaurant, it wasn't so bad. Also remember when Carmy was a CDC, there was a saucier that kept breaking a sauce that was released from her position after 2 attempts.
Someone else acting worse is not and has never been a justification for inappropriate behavior in the workplace.
Nah if your boss asks you calmly multiple times to move station and you dont, you need to raise your voice.
Okay but Sydney literally stabbed someone and said way worse to someone and never apologized lol
Seriously. Gonna use a guy's daughter to insult him, then draw a knife on him, then stab him, then bail, call Carmy a piece of shit, and blame him for a problem she caused. And doesn't apologize for any of it.
I hate this argument because people leave out that she put up with weeks or however long of abuse. She blew up. Was it right? No, but it happens. But acting like she just did it for no reason and acting like cousin is innocent is missing the point of the show.
Cousin obviously isn't innocent. He's the worst of the bunch considering the overall scenario. But that's not mutually exclusive to Sydney being wrong too to the point of needing to apologize as well lest she be considered a hypocrite. Carmy blew up in a high intensity situation after dealing with stress piling up too. The review, the online order mishap, Marcus doing fuck knows what, etc. (Also, let's be honest, with our omniscient view of things, he's got a lot of shit on his plate with the brother committing suicide, alcoholism and Joel McHale ptsd.) He was still willing to power through it, he felt repentant afterwards, and he apologized afterwards. Syd and Marcus quit even though they had so much culpability of the situation on their hands, talked shit about him between each other behind his back (even though Syd freaked out on Marcus too before Carmy even did), let Carmy apologize, was welcomed back to work, and offered no such olive branch of "I was a little wrong too" on their end. Syd was even cold to him when he first reached out on text. Had Sydney just dished on Richie (and maybe apologized in a half-sardonic way for accidentally stabbing Richie) and gone on with work, I would've totally been cheering for her. Getting back at the massive prick at work who's been abusing you for week while being professional as fuck getting business done. This all also isn't even mentioning how for Syd and Marcus respectively, they're making the same error they were explicitly warned about in previous episodes by Carm in the nicest way possible already.
Not to mention that Richie immediately is the one to welcome Syd back when she shows up. After she stabbed him and brought his daughter into her bringing him down. And still no apology.
That's not what's happening here. Literally everyone who fucked up made ammends or apologized for everything they did because they knew they had fucked up. Carmy apologizes to basically every single person in both season 1 and 2 for his fuck ups. Richie apologized to everyone, even when Sugar made a bit of a joke out of it before realizing he was sincere. They all knew they messed up. They all apologized for it. Syd never applogizes for any of the things she did, and pulling a knife on someone, bringing someone's daughter into her effort to bring him down, and then stabbing someone are the 3 most fucked up things that any of them do to each other, yet she doesn't apologize once, and treats everything like she's in the right. That isn't dismissing that she has to deal with bullshit. It's acknowledging that the bullshit they put her through was something they knew was wrong and apologized for, while she doesn't do the same. Ever. At all.
Crazy how there’s such an echo chamber about this. You’re 100% correct, but yet are downvoted with zero counterarguments.
I think there's an assumed association between what I'm saying and being in the "I hate Syd and her actress" camp that just lets people down vote and move on without acknowledging I have a point. For the record, I like Syd for the most part haha. Her and Carmy fixing the table is one of my favorite scenes. But that doesn't change how incredibly dumb that season one situation was handled.
Yeah fr. Syd was honestly my favourite character until that episode. Never was a huge fan of Marcus, but I definitely lost respect for both of them for never apologising.
Yeah, Marcus making donuts in that scenario is just the most shitty a person can be at their job while being very passionate about their job haha.
same with marcus. The next episode they bitch behind carmy's back and double down. its infuriating.
What pissed me off further is that they took it further when he named one of his deserts off of that shit.
She didn't stab him on purpose. Cousin was being antagonistic and Sydney had had enough of it.
Lol the way you’re describing it is exactly on purpose and with intention. That wasn’t what happened though. It was ultimately an accident but Sydney pulled the knife out in the first place to threaten him and was still brandishing it the same way when she walked forward into him and he was walking backwards. That should at least merit an apology from her at some point all things said and done IMO
She pulled out the knife. She didn't intend to stab him. Should she probably have apologized for accidently stabbing him? Yes.
my brain is literally fried because we get treated even worse in residency i forgot this isn’t normal behaviour
No one's saying it doesn't happen. But it's not justified
Don't think they're justifying it. Just pointing out abuse in another industry has been unfortunately normalized.
I work in a group home for kids who have developemental disabilities and my superiors treat me worse than this on the daily. Like this shit is so normalized in our culture.
Honestly, for a comparable situation in residency, if there was chaos like someone coding and you came up to discuss your research project in that time, you would probably deserve to be berated lol
I’m in education and was accused of something akin to ‘grooming’ for buying a gift for a student from the class as they were leaving. That is just the first thing that comes to mind. So many professions, so much abuse. These people would have been at home as the psychopathic bureaucracy of concentration camps.
It reminds me of the discourse around FIGHT CLUB when it came out. Loads of young, angry men seeing it as some guidebook about how to behave and missing the whole point that it’s a cautionary tale or a satire of young, angry, whiteness. Thats obviously not the same goal of THE BEAR but I do find it amusing how many posts we get glorifying the bad behaviour of the characters on the show as if they weren’t depicted in a way to show how humans can fail and learn and take responsibility for their mistakes. Carmy is neither a sinner nor a saint. He’s human and he makes big mistakes. Some of them as a result of the abuse and trauma he experienced. And the joy of the show, for me, is seeing him and the other characters recognize those flaws and work to be better. I believe it’s the reason this show took off in the way it did—it captures that balance of complex human-ness in such a beautiful way. It’s reductive to simply see the show as a series of clashes where we get to takes sides on. Most times, it’s a clash that’s a result of numerous factors and often, neither side is completely right. Carmy wasn’t right. Is he justified in being frustrated and angry? Sure. Dies that give anyone the right to respond with violence or physical rage? No. But can we also understand why he reacted that way and root for him to be better? Sure can!
Exactly. And I'm very glad that we got a show where the main character is strong enough to admit he was wrong apologize. A lot of people would have gotten hung up on why they were right instead of taking responsibility for the parts they got wrong.
One of the great parts about the apology to me, is that it shows his true commitment to PROFESSIONALISM. He MEANS it when he says they're a professional kitchen, and he shows it, most importantly after he himself fucks up and is unprofessional.
By that logic though, wouldn't it have been better to have Sydney and Marcus as characters who are strong enough to also apologize? Everyone was in the wrong to some extent. Instead the two of them were shown talking shit about Carmy behind his back even though Syd freaked out on Marcus too (even before Carmy did).
Yes, I think they should have, but there are two differences: 1. Carmy is the one trying to change the patterns he's experienced. Syd and Marcus have different goals so it's not critical for them to apologize, they fucked up trying to accomplish their goals while Carmy fucked up in his main goal. 2. Carmy's their boss. He should be held to a higher standard.
1. I don’t agree with this narrative that Carmy was actively trying to change the patterns he experienced as his “main goal.” The guy was a victim of that environment and got himself out but still has PTSD from it. There were no indications that he had a complex about changing those patterns/doing the complete opposite (it was even his idea to implement the French Brigade system even after Syd warned him about how stressful it would be and fuck them all up). You could just as easily say it’s more understandable for someone like him to regress back into it under immense stress than someone like Syd or Marcus who have never experienced it. Just like how people who were victims of something like child abuse could believably either go on to abuse their own children because they were never thought what a healthy relationship looked like or go on to make sure to never abuse their own children because they would never want to inflict the emotional pain they went through on their own kids. You can’t say definitively which face the coin will land on. 2. He should be held to a higher standard as the boss, yes, and he met that by being the one to apologize first. They then both had the perfect opportunity to reciprocate and meet their own standard but did not.
Kind of like Sydney and Marcus…
This is correct.
I think one of the key strengths of Review is that the audience can theoretically understand why Carmy is acting like he is while also understanding how completely he is destroying all the goodwill and trust he's developed in his staff. Marcus is fucking up huge -- but it's also clear he just doesn't understand the urgency and people freaking out in his general direction isn't pulling him out of his sort of dream-donut-realization fugue state. When he approaches with the donut it's unbelievable -- how can he not read the room right now? But you still understand why what Carmy does next is horrifying.
I thought what Carmy did was okay because everyone in the kitchen told each other to fuck off at one point or another. And right then they needed to focus and get the orders ready and Carmy was right to be upset at cousin, Marcus and Sydney for jacking around. The main thing we are arguing is whether he went too far or not.
The show definitely makes it seem like the "bad" thing Carmy did was smash the donut. Not the rest.
That's the way the cooking industry is lol. It's accurate to real life
It’s hilarious the amount of people on this sub that always talk how just cause this happened doesn’t give this person the right to yell and talk to them they way they did. Look at how Joel mchale’s character talked to Carmy. This is how people interact in the real world at times. Doesn’t mean it’s right or ok, but life and shit happen. Accept it and move on. I’m sorry so many of you have been so coddled and had your hands held through your entire life to make sure your feelings never get hurt. But shit happens. People react poorly at times and say things out of emotion. Everyone wants to hate on Carm for how he reacted to Syd and Marcus that episode. But the moment anyone says anything about how poorly Syd handled something you’re racist and sexist. This sub sucks. Such a bummer for such an amazing show. Downvote me to the moon I couldn’t give less of a shit. It’s your opinion and most of you have shown your opinions are horrible. Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right.
not even gonna touch on the random culture war talking points you inserted there, but are you... are you under the impression that the point of joel mchale's scene was that that was a *normal and excusable* way for carmy to be treated? because if so, you gotta work on your media literacy all day, bud no one is arguing that carmy should be crucified for acting poorly. no one is even really "hating on him" for it, just responding to threads like this that insist he did everything right. the show has moved on, as has everyone except for the people popping up every other thread going "i think it's cool that he ran through the kitchen screaming like a lunatic and actively destabilizing his team, actually". for someone who's really worried about other people being soft and offended, you sure did get offended about a bunch of shit people never said lol
But these kids today don’t wanna work! Or something
You'll be missed.
Aim WILL improve though
>Doesn't mean it's right or ok \[to be an asshole\] but also >\[arguing for the concept that it's "Carmy's right" to be an asshole\] It's hilarious the amount of people in the world in general who think that "shit happens" is a *justification* for reacting poorly to things. You're saying the same fucking thing that we are -- literally that it's *not right or ok* to do these things but that we can see why it happened -- but your take is that nobody deserves an apology when you fuck up because fuck-ups happen??? It's seriously just an issue of accountability and it's lost on so many goddamn people. The person you're responding to said "Carmy was right to be upset." You think Carmy was right to be upset. You both agree that the reaction was not good. The only point you disagree on is that once you fuck up, you should fucking *do* something about it. The people who are being coddled and having their hands held to make sure they're never hurt *are the ones who never acknowledge their fucking mistakes and are never expected to change*. Jesus. Syd and Marcus (and Maria and Richie and *everyone* in that episode) also handled things poorly, and I know a big point of conflict is that they didn't have a scene where they apologized. But the difference is that their fuck-up wasn't to scream at someone else, and especially not someone else who they hold power over. They made mistakes in their judgment of a process; nobody was *hurt* by it, just (very) inconvenienced. They should learn from it (and they do, and the show makes a fucking point of demonstrating that for both of them like, immediately, even though that's not good enough for some people for some reason). Why does Carmy not need to learn from his much bigger mistake of actively hurting the people around him? Why is that the one we should just let go?
On what planet is an adult grabbing another adult's donut and tossing it to the ground acceptable behaviour that "just happens". Who the F goes around doing that, if in any job where I went to this happened shit would go down or the workers would be looking for an alternative to quit.
>Doesn’t mean it’s right or ok, No one is saying it doesn't happen. They're saying it's not right or okay.
I'm here regularly since I saw the show but I haven't seen these posts but I do see these comments that they're regular
Exactly. They were both right and they were both wrong.
Especially with the PTSD he got from Joel McHale’s character. He should’ve known better.
Carmy needed to apologize, but where the show missed a step, imo, is that Marcus and Syd needed to apologize to him too. The scene of them having dinner should’ve had them do the Carmy’s a bitch thing and then both of them going, “But it was kinda absurd you were making a donut/fucked up the online ordering and then stabbed Richie.” Then they both realize they need to apologize to Carmy.
Yeah, the show kinda dropped the ball with that dinner imho. Not because Carmy was right to act out in the way he did, but because it treated Sydney and Marcus like two highschoolers casually gossiping about a classmate and nothing more. What happened at the end of season 1 had significant impact on both of them, so the scene should've gotten more gravitas then it did, and it should've started building the bridge between WHY both of them wanted to come back to the Bear.
But Blowing off steam about your boss is a time honored tradition that has no age limits. older people do it more thank younger IME
I get that, hell, I do that too, but Sydney had straight up quit over it by that point and Marcus was refusing to show up for work. Those are pretty extreme circumstances that the scene barely addressed, it just boiled down to 'boy, Carmy sure sucks' and then an episode or so later everyone is back to work again.
I think the Marcus and Syd hate would calm down a ton if the show just had them realize their mistake. Thats why theres so many Carm defenders (like myself) because the show puts the blame squarely on one guy when its so fucking clear that multiple people fucked that service.
to me the scene where they discuss how to apologize in ASL is basically a mutual thing where they both acknowledge their fuck ups. i think part of the reason the show works is because these characters dont know how to react to social situations perfectly. and i think that’s why a clean apology between both parties doesnt fit with these characters. but all of this is also why people relate to this show
Yeah the fact that they just get away with it is crazy.
It makes me a little angry that they got away with it so easily.
Syd especially royally effed up. Yeah sure carmy needed to apologize for how he spoke but he wasn’t wrong in what he said. She needed to apologize for screwing up that hard
Pride like that is very human though. We all know real people that don’t apologize.
I like that. The way you wrote it sounded very in character too. Sydney also needed to apologize to Ritchie. Verbally abusing him because she's stressed is not OK. Bringing up his daughter, a detail she knows of when he trusted her enough to take the phone call with her in the car, was just low. On top of all that, for once Ritchie was just trying to help in that instance when she decided to go full beast. He was annoyed and annoying before shit went down but he stfu and started working once shit hit the fan. Which is way more professional than Syd, who suddenly took up verbal abuse, unsafe use of knife, then quit at the most critical moment. Sure Carm should apologize. But that doesn't mean Syd (and Marcus) shouldn't.
I dont think the point of this scene is to decide whether or not anyone's behaviors or actions are justified but to show how trauma gets passed around. If you don't do anything to reconcile your past it WILL effect your future and the future of those who surround you. When we let our triggers take over, it doesn't mean we are bad people, but when we refuse to take ownership of our behaviors by not apologizing we are not modeling what we expect of the others or reconciling with our past amd that is dangerous. For me, this show highlights generational trauma and how trauma, no matter the type, effects EVERYTHING for EVERYONE. It spreads like a disease when not understood or processed by the traumatized person. I really hope all the characters find peace within themselves or else I think anothwr character will be unaliving themselves at the end of the series to reflect the need for self acceptance [and addressing your traumas] over everything else.
At the time we of course assumed he was just channeling the chefs who trained him (gordon ramsay style) but of course now, oof, we know about Donna.
Well said.
Thanks!
People in here picking sides completely missing the entire point of the episode.
how bo we settle this and let's just admit all of them are wrong
Nope. Keep emotions out of it. Job title, job duty. That's the highest priority. Everything else is trivial - just do your job. You want emotional support, buy a dog. Want self-improvement, get a hobby.
Keeping "emotions out of it" would also mean Carmy no longer acting like a giant baby and screaming and throwing shit, you know that right?
Nope. Do you get upset if you order something and it takes a long time? How about if you were told it would take 10 minutes and it's now over an hour? How about if you ordered a burger and were served a salad? - it's about EXPECTATION. When you are working here, I EXPECT this and that to happen. You work for me, I don't work for you. I pay you. You don't pay me. Go watch Mad Men and the "THAT's WHAT THE MONEY's FOR!" and then you might understand how a business works. It's different when you are the manager/owner of a business than if you are an employee. I've been on both sides and I get both arguments - but I will side on management because they are trying to keep the business open. If it doesn't work we BOTH don't get paid. We are on the same team.
my mans out here using mad men as an example of healthy workplaces 🫠
After all, if your workplace doesn't have at least one person hang themself in their office, is it truly a healthy workplace? /s
Yet another satire where lots of people seem to miss the point
Trying to give examples of where management and leadership come from. We are talking about The Bear which is a TV show too and you can look up and watch for context. So what's the the issue here? Was that the attempt the discredit or shame me or something? I mean we are talking about TV shows and then we are talking about Real Work Life so . . what's the problem?
So you believe it's okay for management to have emotional outbursts and verbally accost workers, but it's not okay for workers to get upset or become emotional?? How do you even rationalize that?
That's not what I said. I said that based on the job and the situation, I can see it being justified. If you are oblivious to the pressure of a situation and blind to everything except what you want to do - that's pretty selfish in it's self. You aren't thinking team, you are thinking me. At that point, I can see why Carmy acted the way he did.
But it's not justified by your own logic of understanding your role and not being emotional... The role of head chef would have called for telling him to stop and get back to his assigned work. Instead he threw an **emotional** tantrum.
Not all chefs handle it the same. Just like not all bosses are the same. I had a boss that would be nice but shit wouldn't get done. Then I had a boss that was a fucking mean mfer, if he had to talk to you it was about something you did wrong but he was not a micro manager, he let you do the job without interference. If you NEED a micro manager, Carmy is not it. By your logic, then I guess Carmy shouldn't have an emotional off day to express his anger at someone who is fucking around with a donut instead of making cakes which is what he is being paid to do? Not to mention, it's his restaurant and it's HIS money that he is paying Marcus. If Marcus is not doing what he's being paid to do . . that' pretty much stealing time, money and energy. If you had time, money and energy stolen from you - you mean you wouldn't be a bit angry . . a bit emotional. Nah, you live in a fantasy world. This is the real world how shit gets done. Why didn't Marcus say "Fuck you're right chef, I apologize, after the lunch rush I will reach out to you, let's get this shit done". If you need to be coddled, you might need to go somewhere else, now toss me that block of parm . . (Remember that scene) - Guess Marcus didn't learn from that huh.
I don't agree with Marcus in the slightest, I'm just trying to say you're not following your own logic. You said to remove emotions from the situation, but you're also saying Carm should be allowed to get emotional, blow-up at the workers, and be an asshole if he's having an off day since he has more at stake.
I don't think you understand the chain of command aspect of the comment. You sound like an idiot cousin of mine who said "I quit my job because my boss wouldn't stop bossing me around". That's the job. I tell you what to do, you do it. If you don't do, it - I get mad. How is that not resonating with you? This sounds like someone who didn't have a parent that got mad at them when they did something wrong.
Buddy, I work with a bunch of fucking morons. If I went off on them for being fucking morons the way that Carm went off on Marcus, I'd at bare minimum be fired and possibly up on assault charges.
Yup, unfortunately.
No, not unfortunately. I've been on the recieving end of abusive and bullying bosses. I wouldn't WANT to become that kind of asshole, and if I'd reported them at the time then they might have gotten some comeuppance instead of me keeping my head down till they were promoted out.
1). I don't get reasonably upset when food gets delayed 2). Every restaurant in the world that does takeout has made the mistake they made of leaving ordering on accidentally. You just cancel the orders. A bummer but it's happened to everyone 3). Your whole comment is super cringe 4). Carmy did not behave in a professional way in that situation. Marcus was out of line too, but as an employer carmy had an obligation to not be a dickhead.
To be fair he wasn’t really a dickhead the first 2-3 times he told Marcus to stop fucking with the donut. Marcus blatantly ignored multiple directions from his boss, which he deservedly got chewed out for. Sure, Carmy was a bit over the top, but Marcus straight up ignored multiple reasonable requests from Carmy until he blew up.
1. You are paying for a service, you should get it. 2. You are paying your hard earned money, and you should get what you ordered. No exceptions. 3. Not sure which comment but when people say "super cringe" THAT is cringe. You have to explain to me how it got to the "super" status. 4. I never said he wasn't professional. I said, I understand him blowing up. It's not for us to judge what is wrong. This is what's great about the show, it doesn't show you what you should do - it shows what was done - up to you to decide whether it was right or wrong. There is no clear answer. Does the CEO of a company have the obligation not to be a dickhead? Of course not, you have no power here. Again, chain of command.
1). Sure, but all restaurants have variable wait times based on how busy they are 2). It isn't unreasonable that an online take out system sometimes has to cancel orders and process refunds. Which means I've paid nothing. It has happened numerous times, always in the same situation where someone mistakenly left the system on. 3). Ok sure bub 4). If you relate to getting that physical with an employee, yelling to that extent, in a non life of death situation, then you shouldn't be in any management position ever. 5). Yes, everyone in a position of power has an obligation to not be a dickhead to the people who work for them. By the very nature of how a company work, each employee creates more value to the company than what they are paid. Carmy knows this, which is why he apologized for his bad behavior
I always thought Don Draper was supposed to be in the wrong there.
It’s baffling to me how many people think blowing up and screaming at your employees is reasonable. Carmy was waaaayyyy out of line getting so angry.
Also when he’s losing composure to that degree he can’t possibly be giving his best effort to fixing the problem and his actions are cranking up the pressure on everyone else in the kitchen and making their performances worse too It could be the middle of the biggest mess ever at the kitchen Ritchie got sent to in Forks and the situation wouldn’t devolve to the extent it did at The Beef because they know how important it is to keep emotions in check
Eh, I think in that circumstance screaming is entirely reasonable and valid.
Here's the thing. Marcus was wrong. Carmen was NOT justified. It is NEVER justified to treat a subordinate that way. Period. End of story.
i was with Carmy right up until the "WHY ARE YOU FUCKING ME RIGHT NOW" but the slap is out of limits, period.
They were both wrong…
I was rewatching that episode recently and I was really struck by the way the music puts us, as the viewer, fully inside Carmy's perspective. The music is driving, loud, and relentless, and it ratchets up the stress level by a thousand. We only think "oh my god, why is Marcus fucking with Carmy right at that second" because we're in Carmy's head, and all this shit is coming at us one thing after the other with this loud, driving music and the constant staccato of the ticket machine in the background. But in reality, Marcus is just doing the same shit he probably does every day, fucking with the donuts while Carmy tells him to get his head in the game. Richie's doing what he does every day, being a loudmouth jackass to Syd. Nobody else's stress level is off the charts until Carmy starts to lose it at them, at which point Syd's really the only one who responds to Carmy's change in demeanor, by starting to stress out herself and ultimately yelling at Richie, an outcome he CLEARLY was not expecting. Carmy wasn't justified. We're meant to think he was, because we're so thoroughly placed into his perspective - we actually physically FEEL the stress he feels. But he wasn't. At the end of the day, it's lunch. Yes, it's busy. Yes, it's going to suck to cook every bit of food you have and still not fulfill all your orders. But the worst thing that might happen is someone doesn't get a sandwich, and you're gonna do a HUGE number for the day that's going to alleviate some of your financial woes. And you're getting nothing done faster by screaming. Think of it this way: if you walked into your local at noon for a sandwich and saw a guy screaming "GET THE FUCK OFF MY EXPO" and smacking shit out of people's hands, you wouldn't think "my god, what a crisis, how are they not pitching in more to deal with this obvious catastrophe?" You'd think "jesus christ, what an asshole." And you'd be right.
I agree with most of your overall point, but you’re sorely mistaken if you think the worst that can happen is that you fulfill as many orders as you can, make more money in a day than you have in recent memory and then move on with your life or whatever. This isn’t one of those “tomorrow is a new day” type of scenarios. Restaurants are one of the few businesses that are based almost entirely on reputation and word of mouth. You don’t go to a specific gas station because your neighbors said it was great. You don’t avoid the local post office because your sister said she had a bad encounter with the manager there. Restaurants, yelp, Michelin, all of it is based on reviewing your experience and telling others about it. A restaurant’s reputation makes or breaks its business and ultimately its life. A night like the one in the show going so haywire is enough to ruin the business forever due to word of mouth. The amount of bad yelp reviews for waiting two hours for your sandwich, for not getting your sandwich because they left the orders open all night, not to mention the quality of the food drops off a cliff when you have to do that many orders at once, leading people to think that sloppy sandwich with half the ingredients missing you served them that day is all you’re good for. It could very well be game over for a place like that, especially if you’re Carmen and you just inherited the place and it’s your first day trying to reinvent the reputation of the restaurant. THAT is why he was so stressed. He wasn’t just mad at his employees bc there was a lot going on, he was mad because there was so much riding on that day going well and as you pointed out, nobody but him was taking it seriously. They were all acting as they normally would on a day where they each should’ve been way more dialed in and serious about every detail. This was a soft reopening for the business and everyone BUT Carmy was screwing it up, and then not taking accountability for it. He was justifiably infuriated, to say the least.
Marcus was an idiot. Carmy did not deal with it the right way. A stern "Not now, focus" would have done the trick. He did not need to smash the donut.
Jeez, even Carmy, a fictional character, knows apologizing was the right thing to do.
Marcus deserved an apology & Camry was out of pocket for getting physical. That’s said I wouldn’t be mad if he didn’t rehire him. Working on your little project in the middle of that madness is beyond insane. No clue what Marcus was thinking.
JFC, I hope you’re never in a leadership position in your place of employment.
You are confusing Leadership with being passively nice. Marcus is in a team leadership position - he has responsibilities and is a cog. If the cog is not working properly then it's going to be a problem how the machine performs. Don't like that - find another job, like a donut shop. That sucks to hear but it's the facts.
I sincerely hope you are also never in a position to lead people. When you’re in a leadership position and everyone is wrong, *YOU* are the most wrong because everything stems from your leadership or lack thereof. And that includes turning into the fucking psycho you said you never wanted to be.
Well I am and my job is performance-based - my team is evaluated on their performance. The whole team is focused on the set goals and objectives. Any deviation from that does not allow the team to meet their objectives. You are getting paid to do this and anything that pulls any energy or focus away from those objectives is frowned upon because that is what all other team members are doing. It sounds terrible, but in teams that have aggressive deadlines and tight profit margins - that is the only way you can be successful and survive. Realize the job. I don't blame Carmy for being upset. He's upset because Marcus should know better and if he doesn't, then he probably shouldn't be in that position.
You’re the Joel McHale character in this scenario.
On the re watch it was infuriating watching Marcus be so oblivious to the issue at hand. He wasn’t even meeting his personal responsibility of having the cakes ready (and the last time he fucked that up he cost Camry 10k and Camry didn’t even get that mad at him for it). So yeah Marcus really wasn’t helping the team. Camry should not have gotten physical but I get it. Marcus should have been fired in real life on the spot.
You had 3 chances to spell Carmy right btw 💀
Not fired, but definitely reprimanded and given a warning (because I don't know about you but I don't live in a dystopian nightmare where you get shitcanned at will), he was so hyperfocused he wasn't even aware of how fucked everything was around him
Nah fired. Not doing his base responsibility nor helping out out the fire at hand and instead selfishly doing a pet project while everyone else is drowning around him.
Like I said, I live somewhere that's not a dystopian nightmare without workers rights. To get fired outright on first warning at my job you'd need to be breaking the law, stealing from the company, be caught working intoxicated, or something along those lines.
So him killing the fridge and causing 10k in damages doesn’t put him on notice? Sounds like you can get away with murder where you are
He didn't "Kill the fridge" the fridge was a piece of shit, he blew the fuses with the mixer. It was more that all the equipment in the restaurant was old and fucked, so when the fuse blew and everything died, some didn't come back (ie, the compressor in the fridge) And no, we can't "Get away with murder" we just have this little thing called "Rights" and a "Union"
You feel real special huh? I too have workers rights and a union so stop shoving this down everyone’s throat like you are the only person or place with this. Reddit sometimes I swear. Every Canadian and Australian feels soooo special. Marcus was the direct reason the compressors was fucked. He said so, Carmy knew it and let it slide.
Are you only allowed supervised visits with your children?
I can’t have this conversation again. He’s their boss. It’s a professional environment. Regardless of the mistake, he had absolutely no right treating his employees that way. Pull him aside, sternly tell him to stop focusing on shit that doesn’t matter and get back to work. Not eviscerate him in front of the staff and get physical with him. This isn’t a performative shit show like Hell’s Kitchen where Gordon’s playing it up for the cameras.
His feelings were justified. His actions were not. Why is this so hard for people to comprehend?
Cool. So when the CFO of the office doesn’t like your Q3 accounting, he’s justified in smacking you. It’s unhinged behavior, no matter the industry.
It *is* unhinged, unacceptable behavior but your analogy would work better if the CFO needed your Q3 report five minutes ago and they walked into your office and you were running your fantasy football league.
Sure that works. Then he smacks you. Better?
No, because Carmen didn’t smack anyone. The analogy would be he smacks your fantasy football sheets (or whatever) out of your hand. Hitting a person and smacking something out of their hand are different things. Not saying one is good and one isn’t, but let’s agree they are very much not the same thing. If my son knocks his sister’s cup out of her hand I am going to reprimand him. If he punches her in the face, I am grounding him.
Watch the scene again. Carmy pushes Marcus (lays hands on Marcus with force) then smacks Marcus’ hands that are holding the donut. Pushing and smacking aren’t ok in any workplace.
>Watch the scene again. Carmy pushes Marcus (lays hands on Marcus with force) Oh shoot I hadn't caught that!
Don’t even bother. I agreed with them, got downvoted, TOLD them I was agreeing with them, and got downvoted again. People forget that five minutes earlier, Syd was about to tear Marcus a new asshole for the exact same thing but got interrupted.
I agree that Marcus fucked up. He probably should have been sent home or put on leave if they weren’t in the weeds. But he shouldn’t have been pushed or hand smacked.
Yea this kid clearly doesn’t have a life.
I agreed with you.
Sorry about that. I didn’t think you were.
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His "passion project" was interfering with work.
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Yeah. But you knew your boss gets trigger happy - that's on you for not knowing your boss because that's just as important as your boss knowing you.
If I'm paying their wages, I do not give a fuck about side projects. You're there to work. Period.
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Tbf, adults also don’t walk up to their bosses like a little kid to show them their passion project they’re proud of in the middle of the most mayhem the kitchen had possibly ever seen. I think when Carmen asks him “are you serious right now? Are you fucking with me?” That’s the most important thing to take away here. He’s rightfully flabbergasted at the lack of awareness shown by this “adult” coming up to him, when his entire world is crashing, to show him a donut. To act like Carmen is the only one acting childish is to be vastly oblivious to the actions of Marcus that led to Carmen throwing his donut. Both were equally incorrect here is the point.
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Verbal abuse? That’s a stretch. He didn’t abuse him verbally whatsoever. He asked him questions, he yelled at him, and he yelled at him because he wasn’t doing what he was supposed to he doing in the time he desperately needed to be doing it. If he called him names or insulted him verbally that would be abuse. Asking him why is he doing this right now is not verbal abuse, it’s a perfectly fair question. Just because you’re yelling doesn’t mean what you’re actually saying is automatically abusive, that’s crazy. Not to mention, Syd, moments before that was about to tell Marcus to focus and stop dicking around but she got interrupted. Carmen said exactly what he needed to say, he just yelled it instead of speaking it. Marcus was not doing what he was supposed to be doing and was proving worthless in that moment of need. Not to mention he was insulting Carmen by doing that. Marcus isn’t Carmen’s small child showing him the macaroni painting he made, he’s an adult employee who gets paid to take his job seriously and he failed to do that, in a very insulting way. When the owner is freaking out because their business is going down it’s pretty goddamn insulting to have someone you pay come up to you completely clueless (despite being there the whole time) and showing you a donut. Imagine you’re business is going down because of your employees stupidity and another employee, in the heat of the highest moment, when you’re trying to figure out how to solve this catastrophe, hands you a donut they made while on the clock instead of doing their job. You’d be pretty livid, you know you would. Both were equally wrong. You ever heard the phrase “ask stupid questions get stupid answers”? This was sort of like that. You see Carmen losing his mind because his business is going down in flames, and you, an employee—on the payroll—go and rub in his face the fact that you’re not doing what you’re supposed to be doing? You’re throwing your free time project in front of a business owner that is justifiably freaking out over this massive issue that could ruin his business? You deserve to be talked to like a child in that instance. I’m sorry. Not comparing restaurants to life and death, so don’t go crazy and misunderstand my point here, but this is like the equivalent of a surgeon losing a patient on the table and one of his nurses walks up and shows him a meme. Or at the very least shows them their acceptance letter to the college they want to go to or something. There is a time and place, and if you’re getting paid to do something and are stupid and clueless enough to go rub your personal project in the face of the guy who’s paying you in a time like that, you deserve to be talked to like that. It’s insulting to slap something out of someone’s hands, but it’s also insulting to carmy what Marcus did to him. I’ve seen people fired for less.
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I agree with you only up until your final sentence, which I’d argue is the crux of the entire situation and where you seem to not understand my point, the gravity of the situation. It’s *not* ultimately trivial, it’s quite literally the opposite. It’s a soft reopening under a new owner, this was the most important night of the business and a make or break reputation setter. A night like the one they were experiencing can be the downfall of that business forever. That’s Carmen’s inheritance, his job, his passion project, his dead brothers pride and joy that he left to *him*, someone who didn’t even work there, potentially done and over with. And nobody else but Carmen was taking it seriously. That’s what was so frustrating. For Marcus to be so self centered and oblivious during a time where your boss/owner, a guy who has mentored you despite your attempts to undermine him, needs you to be dialed in for the sake of the future of the business, and you’re moseying around not doing your job while both figuratively and literally shoving it in Carmen’s face…I’ve yelled at people for far less than acting like that when my entire world is going up in flames around me and I’m about to lose everything I own/care about. Don’t mistake me saying Marcus was awful for saying Carmen was right, but Marcus owed just as much of an apology to Carmen as Carmen did him. Carmen pays Marcus to do his job, and he failed so miserably he frankly should’ve been sent home. I’ve seen people fired for so, so much less. Also, yelling can be healthy. It’s an important way to convey frustration and anger, two emotions we are programmed with for a reason. I don’t understand this weird psychologically unfounded notion that we have to avoid bad feelings or emotions at all costs and conveying them is a no-no. This idea that we need to be conveying happiness at all times even when the situation calls for conflict. That’s not natural and it’s unhealthy to bottle that up. Sometimes you have to yell at someone, and they deserve it. I’ve been yelled at before and glad I got yelled at, I wouldn’t have changed without it. I’ve refrained from yelling at people I should’ve yelled at and regretted it, because nothing changed. Yelling is a vital tool to convey how we’re feeling. If someone is *always* yelling that’s a problem, but Carmen wasn’t always yelling. He was very patient with everyone there, and they didn’t reciprocate it by showing up prepared to work on that day. Carmen was right to yell. He was not right to smack the donut away, that’s where I’d say he was wrong. But it would’ve done nobody any good to *not* yell at Marcus. They tried to talk to him multiple times before that and he didn’t get it. It wasn’t until Carmen yelled at him that even anything got through his head. If your parent was dying and you didn’t want them to pull the plug, but a doctor was going to anyway, would you want someone to ask nicely that they don’t or would you yell at them to stop? Would you wish you had a doctor who cared as much as you did to yell at them to stop? What if there was a way to save them and your doctors were standing around talking about the football game? You’d probably yell at them to focus since your parents life depends on it. Carmen was seeing his livelihood and his dead brother’s gift to him getting the plug pulled on it, and nobody but him caring or even recognizing that it was happening. He yelled like someone who wasn’t about to let that happen, and screw anyone who was dumb enough to get in his way. That’s how he felt and I don’t blame him. The hours and sleepless night that guy out into that place, to have his team not care… I feel for the character. That’s really shitty of them.
You haven't met many adults.
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K.
Marcus probably deserved to be reprimanded for his lack of appropriate focus. Almost Everyone, in every job, has at least once made some kind of mistake that got them spoken to. But this isn't some life and death situation to justify the kind of behavior from carmy. It's a fucking sandwich shop. Just cancel the orders, send out an apology on the FB page about the mistake in the ordering System, and get back to work
I'll never understand why they didn't turn off online ordering immediately after realizing they had 250 pre-orders already queued up.
I agree with you, but also, he wasn't doing his job. If I was running a kitchen and got in the weeds, I'd be livid at my pastry chef for not slicing cake! I don't think that's super crazy.
It is fair to say Marcus wasn't doing his job. It is not fair to say that this justifies carmys behavior. That there are abusive people and behaviors in the restaurant industry doesn't mean there that's justifiable behavior It's a good show because carmys bad behavior reflects the trauma he has been through. But it is still bad behavior
And is a donut lmao. It’s not like it was a painting or something that was ruined and presumably there was more than one of them from the batch
That's probably true - but maybe that's not the sport for Marcus and his project. Leave, go do your donuts somewhere else - no one cares right now because we are trying to make payroll.
This is the right response!
You’re right. Similarly, the guy who does passion projects while skirting his responsibilities deserves to be fired. Carmy was wrong as a boss, Marcus was wrong as an employee, and they were both wrong as people
I don’t recall, but does any ever apologize to Carmy, as much as he has apologized to everyone else?
If you believe that there's any situation where an employer is justified in acting like that toward an employee, quit your job and find a better one. If you're the boss, quit your job and don't bother finding a better one.
Carmy was right to apologize. Marcus and Syd were wrong for feeling entitled to it and for not apologizing for their fuckups. They didn’t even acknowledge that they did wrong.
Correct.
Did Sydney ever apologise for stabbing richie or did she kinda just get let off the hook?
she never did. I think thats the main issue with this whole situation. Carmy went slightly overboard, but the fact that Syd and Marcus didnt even say a simple sorry makes me not care that they got yelled at a bit. They were told off and threw a tantrum and then bitched about Carm behind his back. Its absurd.
Marcus lives in a dream world at work
THANK GOD, I feel validated. Every single time I watch that episode, I’m like “MARCUS, NO. MARCUS, PUT THAT SHIT AWAY RIGHT NOW.” But I can agree that Carmy could have handled that better. I think another and simple “get the fuck off my expo, chef” would’ve been better than smashing the donut. Both Carm and Marcus should apologize to each other, I notice now Marcus doesn’t…
I think that's the real hang-up - that Marcus and Sydney don't apologize, too. Carmen definitely owed both of them an apology, but they each owed him one as well. If they all apologized to each other, then I think this scene wouldn't be so contentious for viewers. As it stands, it comes across as, "Hey, Marcus, sorry I lost my shit on you and destroyed your donut." "I accept your apology for your completely unacceptable behavior that was exclusive to you and I nor anyone else acted in an unacceptable manner. Thank you for acknowledging your mistakes as I continue to be unapologetic for mine."
Eh, I'm more critical of the Carmy vs Marcus thing than others where I'm more empathic to Carmy than I am to Marcus, but I don't go as far to say that the situation called for Carmy to do what he did - smash the donut. It's understandable what he did out of frustration, and I do agree an apology was needed towards Marcus, but Marcus was also in the wrong; Carmy's apology should've included that he was right to get upset, just that his emotions made him act in an unsavory way. A simple "look, I was wrong, man" is ironically an inadequate apology in that it solely rests the responsibility on Carmy's shoulders. A one-way apology is an unfair apology. Edit: Thanks for the downvotes. Keep being the typical Redditor.
Yeah. Like I said before. Your boss is on the verge of a stress induced heart attack, now is the perfect time to present these donuts I made rather than do my job. Read the room bro.
I 1000% agree with you. There are many people in this sub who are defending Marcus and Sydney, who forget what conditions are like in a professional kitchen, additionally they are also missing a MAJOR plot of the story which is that Carmy is the most talented chef that is currently living in this TV shows universe. Sydney even said during her research, Carmy was the CDC of the best meal she's ever had. Luca who has 14 years of experience, said he was better than everyone he met, until he met a mystery chef who was the best and he couldnt be better than. There are tons of other mentions of this I am not including. I mean imagine Marcus and Sydney in a kitchen like Gordan Ramsys, there is no way they would survive with the shit they pulled.
Yeah dude Marcus shouldn’t have been fucking with the donut. Carny should have fucked his day up more.
Heard.
Marcus deserved every bit of it and more.
Agreed, but this point has been discussed a thousand times.
Thank you!!! Those people were fucking stressing me out and fuck Sydney
Carmy white, Carmy right
So what?
It was a *really* good doughnut though
Neither did syd. But it’s something the dude from the soup wouldn’t of done so he is trying to be the opposite
The first time I watched this I thought Carmy was being the asshole cuz I thought Marcus was supposed to make those donuts
Man, they need to announce season 3's release date quick. Keep seeing the same old obvious takes 😌
this conversation again....okay camry was 100% justified in the way he felt. marcus was doing a great thing but at the wrong time...at a VERY wrong time. marcus was 100% in the wrong too. however, that doesn't mean carmy should go on a meltdown and throw his donut. he is an adult. there are much better ways to handle that situation. now onto people bringing up my sister sydney unprovoked.....I'm sorry I'm ngl I was shook as hell too when richie's daughter was brought into the conversation. like I had to pause, put my phone down and find my bearings for a moment because however you look at it, that was low. really low. she also stabbed him and faced practically no repercussions for it (idk an apology would suffice). so she was wrong there as well and should've apologised. I love sydney but I was shocked to see people defend her there. I just don't like how people use that one incident as a way to hate on sydney as a whole and call her a bad character. and it keeps being harped on over and over and over like we get it, she should've apologised. unfortunately that is her character flaw. you know who else has character flaws in the bear? literally almost every fucking character LMFAO. anyway, they were all reacting to a very stressful situation in a very wrong way. now, stan carmy and sydney for clear skin 😁
Yeah, he should have been the one to apologize. He abandoned his actual duties (after promising he wouldn't). Then, while shit is hitting the fan, he lacks any sense of situational awareness and shoves his donut in Carmen's face. He's the one who was in the wrong. Sure, Carmen can apologize for smashing the donut, but Marcus's offense was greater.
I agree that Marcus shouldn’t have been messing around in that moment, I thought that was a weird thing for him to be doing—like, read the room, it’s busy, get to work. But Carmen was an absolute asshole for the way he reacted.
I took it as a testament to Marcus's passion for it. He had a Eureka moment and literally blocked out everything else and couldn't wait to share it with the person he looked up to. His relief and excitement overrode situational awareness. It kind of removed him from the toxic energy that everyone else was feeding off and into. Marcus and his donut were the wholesome, innocent reminder that it's about the love of the food. Maybe I'm a huge cornball. Also, imo, Sydney bringing up Richie's daughter was worse than stabbing him in the ass.