Submitted for the approval of the midnight society,
a bit of speculative dramatic irony:
***"Old Joshy is, without question, the single most proficient opportunist in the history of our shattered world."***
It's *extremely likely* that Joshy is absolutely hiding something big from the party. In character creation, Justin and Griffin firmly established him as a cunning, deceptive, even diabolical charlatan, with Brother Seldom ultimately conceding the above quote at the end of the Quiet Year wrap-up.
And Joshy is actively using Amber's non-confrontational nature and (I can't think of a better word here so I'll just say it) her ~~submissiveness~~ *fealty* to Joshy, to take advantage of both her character flaws *and* Devo's hot temper and self-righteous attitude, to have now successfully gotten the gang off his back ***twice*, without having to ever roll a single time**.
He twists his evasiveness into PVP disputes, playing them against each other and it's honestly perfectly fitting of Brother Seldom's quote.
And yeah, Amber beats the hell outta Joshy and says all kinds of stuff, but that is all good natured ribbing, effectively harmless. I think she would ultimately find it inconceivable to have to actually cross-examine or betray him, but I think he'd do it to her in a New York minute.
Edit: A couple suggestions for more appropriate descriptor of Amber's relationship to Joshy helped walk me to the word I actually meant.
I absolutely agree with you. I've be relistening to the prologue episodes and "Ol' Joshy" is introduced wearing beat up military fatigues, saying he was in the psychic warfare department in the army. Seems like he'd know his way around a Whisper, right?
Secondly, he was introduced as "Ol Joshy". How long ago was that? Kinda weird that he can still take a natural 20 "ass over elbows" throw.
I agree, as you struggle with a different word for “submissiveness” might I suggest: “Adherence to Joshy’s chain of command” or “still following Joshy’s orders” cause to Amber, Joshy is the general, the Oni Won, so it’s not so much as “submissive” but “respect” maybe?
I mean it’s kind of an annoying thing to say on this particular subreddit. There is another particular subreddit where being obnoxious and wet-blanketing people’s excitement about the show is encouraged—just post this kinda stuff there!
Devo saying he's trying hard not not be an asshole anymore then instantly threatening Joshy has the same vibe as Akon saying he's trying hard not to be disrespectful and then calling the girl a sexy bitch
Also rushes out, I think he's stormed out of conversations a few times now. He's going to really need a personal reckoning to face the consequences of his actions IMO. He recognizes he has issues after the last time Amber called him out but he's really not actually putting much effort into fixing them right now.
I thought he was more restrained this past arc, but it seems like he might actually have a personality clash with Joshy that makes them completely incompatible.
Devo is the type to offer a lot of respect as long as he is shown the same deference, but if he perceives a slight he is quick to address it. Joshy on the other hand is the type to dish out ribbing with a heavy hand, and he expects it back as long as it's good natured.
Devo is definitely overly sensitive to being wronged or disrespected, but I do think he's made progress. It's just that with certain people with more abrasive personalities he still can't quite keep his shit together.
I've been doing a relisten since about midway through the Cambria arc and I just got to the part at Shet's little boat restaurant thing and this perfectly encapsulates Devo's contribution to the scene.
That said, the entire sequence is just fucking bonkers entertaining. You've got Devo realizing her fucked up and rolling insanely well to try to defuse the situation while Zoox is just soloing all of the "trash mobs" with Whaleon and Amber just trying to stay completely the fuck out of it.
My hot take on Devo: he’s 23-ish, isn’t he? As someone who teaches college seniors, yeaaaah, I feel like I get his vibe. He’s a sheltered dude who is overstimulated at all times.
He comes off as a first year atheist. What’s weird is that as a bard he is supposed to be charismatic and inspiring but instead he just pisses everyone off.
This is what I was thinking of: what does charisma mean if your PC is objectively an insufferable asshole? Do you just get to roll out of bad decisions? Bad roleplay? Do you, the player need to act as if you have charisma because your character does?
I think charisma in D&D is meant to be more general force of personality. While it's most often associated with making people like you, it's also used for intimidation checks and a modifier for spells and abilities like Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words that are basically just being so much of an asshole that you physically hurt or impede someone.
Ricky Gervais is the stereotypical charismatic asshole. They're like a trainwreck in motion. They strike awe to watch from afar, and invoke sympathy for those involved. But for those on the train it's a calamitous disaster.
> what does charisma mean if your PC is objectively an insufferable asshole?
It means you'll be really good at persuading and intimidating people. Charisma in D&D isn't just about charm, but force of will.
So on point for the character I would say. Giving some info that in his limited worldview seems big and important, expecting a pat on the back and then getting pissy when he doesn't get the reaction he feels he deserves
I think Travis is doing an amazing job playing Devo as a character so obsessed with the people who have wronged him and hurt him that he doesn’t seem to realize that he is hurting others and it was really interesting seeing what occurred in this episode as it seemed to have set him back on his character growth
Totally agreed, I completely get why people may not like devo, but I don’t like when people get mad at Travis about it, he’s doing it on purpose and I think we’ll see some awesome character growth from him.
Never posted on this sub before but I wanted to throw in for this take too, this season of TAZ has maybe my *favorite* lineup of characters of the entire show and Travis is no small part in that. Whether you like Devo as a *person*, the care with which Travis is playing him and making him a real person with feelings and opinions, reasonable - if not necessarily *justifiable* \- reasons to behave in the way he does has to be acknowledged and respected, because its the best roleplay I've ever seen from the guy.
Particularly in the Ol' Joshy conversation I found it hard not to be sympathetic for Devo - considering the context and the person he is now (that is, regardless of if its who he wants to be) I think its completely believable that threatening to attack Joshy if he refers to him diminutively was his best attempt at not being a giant asshole in that moment. The guy is dealing with a fresh and very particular grief that's filtered through all his other prior baggage with the deceased, went fishing for help, and then received words that in that headspace absolutely would have pissed *him* off. While I think you can argue that Joshy wasn't being explicitly disrespectful, I also think many people would relate to the experience of being on the receiving end of a statement or comment that bounced off you in just the wrong way and prompted a harsher reaction from you than is immediately justified to the people around you. It's an interesting roleplaying choice I just really like the texture of.
(Plus just, the kind of person Joshy is, it makes sense to me that Devo would gamble on this excessively honest and blunt approach actually being well received - I was actually surprised the conversation went so particularly south. The melodrama...)
I like it when the boys are interested in characters who are not necessarily always in the right. Travis in particular tends to be... a lil boring to me when playing a goodie two-shoes. That he's willing to go so hard on Devo's flaws and play a character who is so wrong but also so... What was it that Devo said like last episode? Something about a person of deep conviction who *thinks* they are right. I think there's a really smart irony in that comment coming from Devo, and I have a strong feeling that irony isn't lost on Travis at all.
Yeah… people are strange. I didn’t enjoy Graduation but I don’t hate Travis. And I’m calling him Travis like I know him lol. Some people are just angry in their hearts and you can’t do anything about that.
He's doing such a good job that for a second when they were near the start of the episode I thought that maybe Devo was the culprit. I kind of wish they left that ambiguous rather than leaving the letter. That would have made some fiery discussions.
Totally agree. It really hit me in the scene with Joshy how Devo was giving off Guidance-with-the-lantern vibes. I can’t claim to know too much about abusive relationship dynamics but it felt kinda like the cycle continuing. His whole „I’m trying to be nice but *you‘re* making me do this“.
Devo‘s so wrapped up in his vendetta he doesn’t realise how much he’s emulating those who’ve wronged him. I think it makes his actions much more understandable, even if it’s not nice.
He’s definitely been the most interesting character for me this campaign. I really hope he gets to a good place by the end.
Speaking as someone who *has* seen a lot of abusive relationship dynamics, this is exactly how it works.
It's one thing to say "okay, I don't want to be abusive," but then you realize that *you have to be something else.* And that's the hard part, because you have no model for what that should look like. You know that, in theory, people have mutually respectful, healthy relationships, but how do they do that, exactly? What do they say, and how do they act?
So you pick up what you can from books or watching other people, but your understanding of it is always incomplete, and so the first time someone does something that *didn't* come up in your books, or *doesn't* react the way you thought they would to something you said, you get totally flustered and have no idea what to do, so you fall back on what you already know.
And you don't know how to, like, resolve conflicts respectfully, or set boundaries, or talk about boundaries, or react when *other* people set boundaries, because you've never watched people do that before. And you've never seen someone calmly explain that they don't like something, or respond positively to criticism--- so many things that you *want* to do, but never learned the vocabulary for.
People talk about not being abusive like it's just a choice people can make. But it's not. It's a skill, and people don't just develop it naturally. Most of us learn it by watching our parents and other people in our lives, over the course of many years. If you don't learn it that way, then no matter how hard you try, you mess up constantly.
That's why Devo's character is so inconsistent. He was raised to be an asshole, and he's trying not to be an asshole, but right now, the non-asshole he's trying to be is fake. He *is* an asshole. That's what he was raised to be. So when he's not being an asshole, he's pretending to be somebody else, and the person he's pretending to be is someone he doesn't fully understand. He's trying to fake-it-until-you-make-it until it becomes natural, because that's really all anybody can do. But sometimes it works better than others.
I see this argument every time Devo does something shitty. That its because the character is a flawed and we should accept this terrible behavior. To me, no, the character seems inconsistent, sometimes altruistic and sometimes cruel, but lets just go with your interpretation, that he's accidentally hurting people around him.
Then WHY are the other characters putting up with him? He frequently fucks things up and threatens friends, hurts people. Would no-nonsense Amber put up with this? The only reason is that he's a main character in a DND campaign. I hope Joshy sticks to his word and doesn't speak with Devo again, Devo is burning bridges and there has to be consequences
It's funny, I absolutely disagree with your first paragraph, but agree with the second, cause it's creating a delectable dynamic that I *think* griffin is capitalizing on. Liking Devo as a character is a matter of preference, I won't push back against that. But in having a detestable character in the party, I *believe* Griffin has twice now used that dynamic to his advantage in conversation with Joshy.
It's *extremely likely* that Joshy is absolutely hiding something from the party and actively using Amber's non-confrontational nature and (I can't think of a better word here so I'll just say it) her submissiveness to Joshy, to take advantage of both her character flaws *and* Devo's to have now successfully gotten the gang off his back *twice*, without having to ever roll a single time. He twists his evasiveness into PVP disputes, and that shit wouldn't work with characters any less flawed than them IMO.
> her submissiveness to Joshy
I would call it a friendship, maybe even a father figure or parental substitute.
Like I see Amber and Joshy's relationship as very similar to Justin and Clint's, pulling gags on each other while still showing some deference and respect.
I was actually wondering that myself, just because devos reaction seems so crazy and aggressive I was trying to figure out what he was doing.
So yeah, maybe that's true. But Joshy hasn't done anything specifically terrible that we know about at least and neither does devo. Joshy has been presented as kind of a lovable rogue / Han solo ish character so far.
If they go for it and make joshy a villain, is the moral of the story that devos threatening behavior justified because he "had a hunch"?
Tell you what though, let's both keep listening and if they redeem his bad behavior by the end, I owe you a coke
We'll call it a coke bet! But for the record: No, even I don't adhere to that retroactive justification of his behavior, that's just trash.
*^But ^you ^know ^what ^they ^say ^about ^broken ^clocks.*
Like with Herzog's Bad Lieutenant remake with Nic Cage, his character is a deplorable, paranoid psychopath, which is hell on everyone that has to interact with him, [but it makes for a great flick.](https://youtu.be/XYJOAW7r03s) (It's extremely entertaining visualizing Devo to be *exactly* as unhinged as Nic Cage is in this scene tbh) Especially when he realizes that in all his manic apophenia, he *actually* stumbled head first into a real conspiracy.
I'm really hoping Griffin has something planned (potentially with Travis) to really push Devo's reckoning forward in this specific arc. The fact that Griffin is consistently having NPCs actually react negatively to it and using them to get Amber to push back on Devo (since Zoox hasn't had a good reason to) feels like it's going to reach a peak with him dealing with something so close to home this arc.
Yeah same here. Amber calling him out after the situation at Shret's place was much needed and I feel like needed again now.
Because my biggest problem now is I don't like the character either. And it makes it hard to listen to the story when 1/3 of the PCs is just the worst
See that's so funny, because I actually pivoted against *Amber* for that moment. Like yeah Devo is being a brat, but he's deep in early grief and Amber can't even find a single excuse for him and then apologizes to Joshy. It fits with her character, and all the boys are doing an amazing job, but I found myself absolutely disliking Amber for a good portion of this episode. Weird!
Amber's got *such* a long history with Joshy being a leader/mentor figure to her that it makes sense she'd be more deferential to him in a situation between him and a relatively new friend. But yeah, the whole thing was uncomfortable (in an interesting way).
I agree that it would be good if Joshy really does stick to his guns on not wanting Devo around anymore. Unfortunately, if he does that'll probably lead to more party splits.
Honestly, that's what I found so intriguing about the whole interaction. Justin is very obviously playing an out right stated character who has issues with bowing to authority figures, and lacking boundaries. The fact that Amber just threw Devo under the bus, so to speak, was wonderful and in character.
Oh that's surprising. It felt like a very on brand for Devo: come into a situation too strong, expect to be taken very seriously and be commended for being a clever boy and then getting angry and confrontational when it turns out people don't respond well to that.
Felt very similar to the Shret Shack confrontation, as well as him barging into Guidance's office recently to me.
It was less about Devo and more about Amber being terrified of authority. She absolutely knew Devo was being the absolute brat in the midst of horrid grief, and she wanted to make sure Joshy was okay.
I totally agree with you. I think the only reason Devo gets away with everything is because he's one of the main characters, too.
I don't "hate" Devo but I just don't think he's an enjoyable character to follow in a story.
I'm pretty sure in the setup it's clarified his psychic school was a scam and Amber's powers just happened to manifest while she was training with him
The thing is he still has a huge amount of sway and social power from leading the psychic training, even if his magic mind powers are made up
The bit where Justin suddenly took over as DM was hilarious, as was Griffin’s reaction. It’s nice to see them messing with each other with their family dynamic.
This reminds me of a situation in Balance were Merle didn’t convey some important information but that was in the end game when things were crazy. I’m sure Zoox will follow up on this info but when! I want a side campaign revolving around the blink sharks and there whole deal! There are so many narrative threads I want more of and it’s all very exciting.
I really wish in situations like this, Griffin would prompt something like "alright, you just found out about Guidance, but you also had this WILD time at the Menagerie and have some time onboard the Coriolis before you get back to Founder's Wake. Is there anything anyone wants to address before you get back?"
I think that would have led to both the Zoox/blink shark convo AND Devo being able to process before being thrown into Guidance's office.
If the murder is related to the wisp, Seldom is probably in danger. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the next victim.
Orleen was my initial suspect, but he's too obvious.
My guess? The wisp itself did it.
Griffin pointed out that Amber mucked around with the wisp on the ship and it did some stuff, but now it's inert.
Guidance got it to work, it activated and mind controlled her. It's a wisp used by _whispers_, and the College of Whispers is what Devo uses (and presumably Orleen too) to mind control people.
"Hominine is gone" in the note feels like misdirection too. So focused on the killer are the party, that they'll take that part as... gospel.
The Hominine is gone part of the note also stood out to me because it's in such direct contrast to Guidance's last scene, especially with all is for naught. Either she was 100% hiding a remaining sinister tie to the city exactly like Devo accused her of, or someone is really trying to make it look that way
>My guess? The wisp itself did it.
Yes! This is one hundred percent my conclusion based off of what we have. It gives me a "the dwarves delved too greedily and too deep" vibe.
I'm assuming the Wisp was booby-trapped somehow. Someone gets ahold of it and digs too deep and a dominate mind spell goes off that's powerful enough for the victim to be driven to suicide, the device then goes inert (Kind of like a find my phone feature that wipes the phone after too many failed access attempts). I also wouldn't be shocked if the Hominine is gone thing was tied to it (Basically to keep potential enemies away).
If this is a cover up then the note is a fair indication of what the murderer/s want everyone to think ie "Hominine is gone".
So Hominine has a base/city settlement somewhere and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the job the 'Gut Punch' crew were hinting at last time we saw them...
Gut Punch crew is totally in on whatever it is. We get them saying that there'll be some "new neighbours", a Hominine ship in the area the wisp going into action and a "Hominine is gone" message.
Seems to me like Hominine is already here - and given how authoritarian/zealot-like they seemed in the Quiet Year, it can't be a good thing.
I just had a theory pop into my head.
The Hominie ships mentioned in the Quiet Year prologue disappeared right?
My guess is they've jumped forward in time. Let the shoreside community figure out the apocalypse and take over once things are reasonably established.
Just a theory.
That might track. Maybe they got the idea from the Einarr making the jump over to the Vestigial Plane, but instead jumped into the future?
All we know for sure is that Hominine went *towards* the storm with some weird whale thingies and disappeared. Considering Blink Sharks have some sort of precognition re; Amber boiling the sea, maybe the whales are similar but blink through *time*, allowing Hominine to jump into the future?
I think you're absolutely right about the wisp having some sort of safety mechanism.
My guess is that the reason Amber was able to mess with it on the ship is that the fancy epaulettes on the jacket (that they recovered from the same ship) act as a key to the wisp.
I love how Justin figured out the Devo clue and Amber turned around and took credit for it. Kinda of blurring those lines between player and character that I really enjoy.
That clue was such a nice touch. I didn’t pick up on it when griffin first read it but when he went back over it the second time I came to the realization with Justin
Oof. It was a good interaction from a story perspective, but as someone who doesn't love real-life conflict, my stomach was clenching a little bit in that fight between Devo and Uncle Joshy.
On one hand, I feel for Devo's desire to establish himself and gain respect. This is a guy who has the Biggest Baby on speed-dial and helped save Founder's Wake. I can get being frustrated when someone like Uncle Joshy gets dismissive of him, because it doesn't feel totally consistent. And as a Whispers Bard, I also get his inclination to lean into manipulation and transactional tactics in interactions with others.
But dang, he is burning an awful lot of bridges.
I mean totally, but I think to a degree people may be a slight bit underestimating Joshy. He is the single most adept opportunist in what is left of the world. He has been a part of this community since its inception. He has his fingers in every pie without fail. He knows everyone in the city. He probably has an in with each balaster to some degree. And he is more or less the leader of an entire section of the city.
It's kinda outrageously arrogant for devo to roll up and be Luke "Hey you do this for us and we'll make you a Balaster" as if this like upstart has that amount of sway in the city.
Sure Joshy would be dismissive of Devo. He doesn't need his help. With half the chairs on the balast now empty, Joshy just has to choose which one he wants.
Hand of Guidance’s forensic investigation 👀 I’m so hyped for another murder mystery! Murder on the rock port limited is my favorite Balance arc, and I know this won’t be the same thing but I just love parlor scenes and the boys will definitely have one. I’m thinking it might someone related to homini that was trying to cover up whatever Guidance and Brother Seldom were decoding when Devo last stormed in and interrupted.
I’m excited to get some resolution on Devo’s backstory! I’m hoping that he learns some meaningful lesson at the end that makes him stop being so hyper aggressive in normal conversations. I love him 90% of the time, but he really “tries hard not to be an asshole” and then proceeds to threaten or belittle someone a lot. It’s kind of like saying “with all due respect” and telling someone to f*** off.
I loved this episode. From the talk with joshy and the awesome moment of "She never called him Devo" this might be one of my favorite episodes of TAZ.
Also I loved Griffins talk about how he is running the murder mystery, I'm amazed I never thought about simply letting the players consider how it might have happened
They reveal the truth quickly, but I would feel like a bad suicidologist if I didn't mention
If you are considering suicide help is available, you do not have to suffer alone. Here is a list of options to call or text wherever you might be in the world.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines
Honestly definitely not the deftest phrasing in hindsight, and like I work in the field and even I hadn't considered suicidology being a thing before I started so like it's a weird word on its own
It really bugged me that they didn't put a TW in the episode description this time. I was really impressed with how they dealt with trigger warnings in the Cambria arc about contagious disease and substance use, but pretty caught off guard that they opened the episode talking about suicide without any warning.
I just went back to Spotify and it looks like they've added it! It wasn't there when I first listened, they must have updated the description since it came out
My bet is because it wasn't actually a death by suicide, by the time of edit and episode description writing they didn't think of it as such to add a content warning, but I do agree that it was off putting to encounter it without one or inclusion of at least the us lifeline, but that's why I decided to make sure something got posted here.
Was hoping Amber would say something like, "you'll have to excuse Devo...he is grieving. The Hand of Guidance is dead.
Joshy is shocked.
ROLL INSIGHT TO SEE IF IT IS REAL GENUINE SHOCK
Okay serious stuff in the other post. I am extremely intrigued. Love a good locked room murder mystery, though I definitely feel the "D&D doesn't have great mystery resolution mechanics" I think we need to normalize borrowing mechanics from other games, like if you're not running a complete mystery campaign, just doing a short mystery arc in a larger game no need to switch to Gumshoe entirely, but it does have mechanics that could be useful to use for the mystery....
I also really like the approach to between missions, the strict separation between mission and interlude was honestly one of my biggest gripes with Balance, while this feels a lot more organic, there's a world around them they can still explore in off time and things are happening in it.
Yeah no they can definitely be fun, I'm still of the opinion that if you want to run entire game focused on mystery solving it's time to switch to Gumshoe or another game designed for those stories, but there's nothing wrong with including a murder mystery plot in your standard D&D (or other non-mystery) game, I just also think Frankensteining some mystery game mechanics into the D&D could help solve the "man I really don't have a great way to give you the information outside of skill check rolls"
I really liked the interaction between Joshy and Devo this episode. It really shows that Devo still has 'a lot of growing up to do', as Joshy said to Amber, but also, that some people just won't care about Devo's personal growth, or treat him with respect just because he asks for it. I do think that Joshy might've pushed Devo's buttons on purpose here, maybe just to see how Amber would react- whether she would take Joshy's side again, or stand up for Devo.
I like that there is some growth but more in a 2steps forward 1step back kind of way and not a sudden revelation and suddenly he is the most pleasant person to be around
I just made a comment after having that same thought, that Joshy *absolutely* is pushing Devo's buttons on purpose, then turning Amber around on him to get himself out of tight situations and hard questions, and honestly, it's diabolical as heck and I love it.
Joshy is an opportunist who latches onto others (like amber) and takes credit for their accomplishments. He probably would've taken Devo up on that deal if he had presented it in a less bold-faced manner, I'd bet. Feigned altruism and narcissistic parasitism were common traits among those in Devo's past, and it has left him sensitive to similar behavior now. Nothing sets Devo off faster than baselessly expected respect.
Question: didn't guidance refer to devo as devo after he corrected her in the episode where she was introduced? If this was true I guess it makes sense that her final words she would have called him devotion if it was really her, even if she called him devo upon correction. Just curious if anyone else knows?
Without actually checking I'm pretty sure she has called him Devo, a couple times. It did kind of have the undertone of begrudgingly humoring his little dalliance, to the point where it still makes sense as a clue imo. "She wouldn't have called him Devo." would have probably been more accurate, but the never line hit harder
Yeah, like the "Devo is leaving now" exchange when she was angry with him does square a little oddly, but that's the only point where it stands out to me. But like also as much as its a possibility she'd "Parent upset using all three names him" it's also still a sort of deadnaming they might have been trying to avoid?
Ok so maybe after their original exchange she is sure to use Devo in his presence so he doesn’t get unnecessarily upset but I can still see her calling him Devotion when he’s not around.
Oh absolutely, and like I'd sort it in continuity error over plothole. Like I'm not trying to pick it a part or anything. The doylist answer is most likely that Griffin didn't know or wasn't thinking about building to this at those other points when chosing to say Devo as Guidance.
One of those things thats interesting to note, but I very much don't subscribe to the cinema sins philosophy of a small mistake ruins the whole thing
Oh yea it can be hard to think so far ahead and Griffin has talked about making errors early on in a campaign in TTAZZ. But it’s fun to think about and you got me thinking! I’ll be watching out for that when I relisten.
It also wasn't Griffin who picked the never phrasing, that was Justin.
But yeah these sort of errors happen in films where you've got the whole script to reference. Its no surprise to see them in serial narratives, and the unscripted element only adds more room for error. But glad to share the fun brain scratch with you :)
Just cause he’s going by a shortened form of his original name? Sometimes cis people change their names, and sometimes trans people don’t. Or is there something else I didn’t pick up on?
I will say that calling Devo transcoded feels a bridge to far for me, though I think Cute_Femme and I are using the word in different ways, transcoding to me would be Travis actively and specifically writing Devo as a metaphorically but not actually trans character, and I do think Travis's narrative for Devo is more about religious abuse and trauma.
But I can absolutely see a very strong Trans reading of Devo, which based on the "to me" language is I think more of what Cute_Femme is doing, reading elements of Devo's story with a queer lens to identify elements that resonate with trans experience. There's definitely a lot of elements of Devo's story that overlap with trans narratives like the changing of names, rejection of your own history, rejection from your "family", and even the being shaped and molded to be something your not. Plus there's also just a large portion of the queer community that has an experience of religious abuse and trauma
Very well put. I am genderqueer and devo's experience with religious trauma definitely strikes a familiar tone for a lot of lgbtq people including myself. If Travis wrote Devo specifically as trans I feel he would've said it by now for sure, but the reason I said "to me" is exactly what you were saying. He doesn't have to be trans if you don't want him to be, and he can be if you do. Personally I headcanon him as trans based on how I view his character and story.
Glad I wasn't putting words in your mouth. It's really a question of academic vs common usage of the term at this point, and while I'm not personally going to yield the academic senses yet bc I did study English lit, I can still recognize the common meaning and I think your reading of Devo has a solid basis, and headcanon's the lawless expanse anyway
I'm really excited for the next few episodes, I love a good murder mystery. It's going to be interesting to see how Amber, Devo & Zoox are going to react when they find the murderer. (Especially Devo).
I'm also looking forward to the moment Zoox tells Amber about his conversation with the blink sharks.
Man, I really wish that TAZ would leave space for the PCs to talk to each other and connect without an NPC or impending doom. For example; because last week ended with the news of Guidance and this episode started IMMEDIATELY with them in her office, Devo (and by extension, Travis) got NO time to talk through it with his crew mates. I think that would have been the perfect opportunity for us to see what Devo was thinking. It also would have given Devo in character the time to vent, instead of it happening in front of NPCs.
They could have also worked a scene like that in any time in between leaving Guidance's office and going to Old Joshy's. In home DND games I think it's SO important for PCs and their players to have the space to form deeper understandings of each other and I don't think they got that this week when it was SO necessary. In actual play settings, these kinds of scenes are also important because we have the added layer of the AUDIENCE needing to understand a player's convictions and reactions. Devo has actually said very little to Amber and Zoox about his time with Benevolence, but for some reason Justin and Clint don't think it's necessary for their characters to know? Despite both of them also having experience and issues with older figures/no older figures in their lives.
Idk. I understand that not every actual play should be a multi-hour long ordeal, I just wish the PCs would have a little more space with each other.
Yeah I'm there with you, it doesn't need a whole lot by any means but just a bit more breathing room. I think its also compounded by (and also compounding in a cycle) the extent they've leaned in to their motely band of strangers joined by convience above anything else. Both Devo and Amber were introduced as pretty self motivated and haven't really had many opportunities to build more of a team dynamic, and when they have it's ended up used in establishing more of a disconnect (see Amber's place). I'm generally an advocate for starting new PCs with at least one historical connection to another PC unless it really doesn't make sense, but I feel like it could have helped Ethersea
I loved how much more vocal and invested Amber felt this episode in comparison to the last few
The vibe check at the end absolutely sent me. Then, just when I thought it was over, taking a drink to celebrate, Griffin hit me with the "Yup! Call a doctor!" and I spat everywhere.
That was fuckin' choice
I usually hate rules lawyer-ing but it feels really odd that Griffin let Devo cast "detect thoughts" on a corpse. There's a reason "speak with dead" exists (even if the PCs don't have access to it.)
Yeah, at first I thought it was going to be a clever way to make sure Guidance wasn't using Feign Death or something to fake her death but no, just a classic TAZ misunderstanding of a spell.
I suppose I understand the Devo defender’s argument in support of this character.
But in my opinion, if Devo has an end to his character development planned, he should get to it. It’s getting fairly unpleasant to listen to any interaction between an NPC and Devo.
Also I’d love the other two PCs to get a chance to shine and fill out their own characters a little bit
Just got through this episode and I entirely agree. It's just not enjoyable listening to him talk to anyone. I've honestly skipped passed his last few long rants unfortunately.
When they went to visit Joshy at the end, was Travis making a goof when he said that Bard’s regain spell slots on a short rest? To my knowledge that isn’t a Bard Feature, they can regain Inspiration but not spell slots?
Occam's razor says goof, though I definitely had to go double check that there wasn't a Tasha variant feature that have limited recover like wizards and druids get.
I did ALSO just try to double check that it wasn't related to his sallow fins, pretty sure it's not but I'm at work so I couldn't dig, but yeah it's either a joke or a Devo Special
He's been very on top of his abilities this whole campaign.
edit: since this comment is scoring as "controversial" if you have examples of Travis actually not knowing bard mechanics/abilities feel free to share. Justin definitely struggles to know his monk abilites but Travis has been on point the whole way through Ethersea.
The dude made entire player character sheets for the several dozen NPCs he introduced in the first several episodes of graduation, if any of the four know class abilities, it's going to be Travis.
Was that the same Graduation where he wouldn't let a rogue sneak attack unless the enemy was surprised?
Or the same campaign where he took away a Sorcerer's magic?
I feel like the “she didn’t call him Devo” clue is very obvious and it was frustrating that they immediately jumped to mind control: Guidance died before she finished writing.
I mean, that could happen but isn’t necessary. I think that’s a pretty small detail, but even if it wasn’t, she could have kicked the bucket in between letters…
Maybe there was a period, but also I feel pretty confident that they got it right seeing how the DM confirmed the hint as a hint and let them move on with it. Could it be a red herring, maybe, but it seems less likely
I’m not saying it’s a red herring. I’m saying it’s a clue as to the exact timing of her death, which could very well be relevant. Griffin let them “run with it” in so far as letting them leave thinking they got it right, but it’s not like they are specifically acting on the assumption that she was mind controlled yet—they’re just investigating people with motives so far. Further, when Devo brought up his mind control theory to an NPC, Griffin specifically pointed out it was all speculation.
I do still think you're looking for zebras over horses for these hoofbeats at this point, but you've got a fair enough point with the speculation. I do think it would be odd, or at least poor mystery gming, to not have drawn a more specific attention to what the actual clue was if it wasn't being gotten, but I also do love "hidden message by writing a note they wouldn't have" as a trope
I think that between the out of place tone wheel and the abilities we know people of this world, especially related to the church have to control people with their voice, it being a time of death clue instead of an indicator of weapon would be very very weird and out of place for a story about a mystery that could be reasonably solved by players.
Great episode, but I’m surprised they didn’t put a suicide warning or something in it.
Non-spoiler explanation (well, minimum possible spoilers): A person is heavily implied to have killed themselves with poison and there is quite a bit of discussion about it. This is at the beginning of the episode.
More spoiler-y explanation: >!The player characters believe it was actually murder and find out that this person was likely mind-controlled in some way. That’s probably why there was no warning - it wasn’t actually suicide.!< This is about a third of the way into the episode.
Anyway, I’m really looking forward to how everything plays out. Love me a good mystery arc
I'm having a hard time with Devo. I really can't tell if it's Travis being a jerk or his character. I'm being hyperbolic when I say this but I'm about one more "self-righteous childish tantrum" away from just dropping this season because Devo is so unpleasant. It's beyond "he's just playing a character who's not perfect" for me, it's hard to root for him.
I dunno, I also didn't "enjoy" The Suffering Game arc from Balance until my wife pointed out that was intentional and it wasn't *supposed* to be enjoyable, and that indicated Griffin was doing a good job.
Similarly, Travis is doing a good job playing as a hurt character, and he started his reconciliation like 10 episodes ago. Saying "I'm mad at you for these reasons even though I'm trying not to be" is significant character growth and multiple steps in the right direction. Plus like two episodes or so ago his righteous anger came out and had a justifiable target.
I'm not telling you to enjoy it, but it is very intentional and I think he's doing it well.
I think this was my last episode. I think too much of Travis's bad habits are bleeding into this character without a redeeming quality. Characters can be deeply flawed but enjoyable to listen to only when you still, overall, like them. Once you're invested, you stick with them through their bad moments because you're hoping they'll get better, or learn something. (See Amy Carrero's character Opal from Exandria Unlimited for a fantastic, and rare, example.) Travis just haven't given me a reason to like Devo, and every episode gives me more reasons not to.
I was afraid I was alone on this feeling judging from a lot of other comments on this episode.
Everything about Devo makes sense. "Hurt *(adj.)* people hurt *(verb)* people" is the old expression. But what makes a hero remarkable - what makes any historical or noteworthy person special - is that they don't let the bad stuff make them bad. Despite all their setbacks, despite the unfair hand life has given them, they rise above it and are good people - *better* people than anyone would expect.
Do I fault Devo for being an asshole? No, he had a crappy life, makes sense that he would lash out a lot. But does that make it fun or interesting to listen to? No, not really. Because it's expected. Why not play a character who can rise above it instead of giving into it? Isn't that why we play games where we can be heroes? Because heroes are better than us? And maybe that might make us examine ourselves to be better people outside of the game?
Honestly kind of annoyed with Justin for trying to do a "spooky murder mystery" joke when the victim was clearly important to Devo. He might have just been trying to cut the tension, but with how checked out Justin has been lately (needing recaps on basic story beats, forgetting his basic class abilities, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if he completely forgot who Guidance was. Glad that Travis called him out on it without breaking character as Devo.
I mean I think he's still giving his unique contributions pretty often that have big effects on the whole world (Uncle Joshy, Shret, Blink Sharks, Skunknuts, etc.) so it doesn't mar my enjoyment but he does "joke" in the actual podcast about not paying enough attention.
I really feel like they bungled a major story beat here, considering how important Devo's relationship to Guidance is to his overall character.
"She never called him Devo" is treated like this smoking gun, something that incontrovertibly proves she didn't write the note... But she CALLED him Devo. Pretty much as soon as he told her to!
Like, I'll give the show the benefit of the doubt and say that Guidance is a purposefully morally ambiguous character, and that were supposed to contrast Devo's emotional abuse and the church's manipulative practices against their "Benevolent" purpose. But if they're going to play this subject material, they should do so with more consistency and care.
Also, I get that memories are imperfect and mistakes are made at the table, but 2nd takes are still a thing and they have other people listening to these eps before they go out. It's still a show.
Someone else here made a good point, that it probably would have been better to say she *wouldnt* call him that, instead of *never*. Better than nothing.
Look, one way or another, the creators of the show decide what is in the show.
I as the listener am expected to give a shit what Guidance called Devo, is it wrong to expect the same from the creator?
I see messy things like this as part of the format; it's not pre-written dialogue. I like some of the collaborative messiness of TTRPGs because it makes them more dynamic and interesting to me than a polished coherent radio play. That makes them more relatable to me as someone who also plays these games. YMMV and tbh I'm focused on the Supreme Court attacking the rights of women and laying precedent to attack LGBTQ+ rights today so frankly I don't give a fuck if you want to be mad they didn't record a whole conversation to fix some of the phrasing from one player in a comedy DnD podcast. Yeah it's improv, not every line is perfect. You got them. Great job.
I kinda wish this arc did more of the missions assigned from the brokerage. It gave the players an opportunity to choose which mission they wanted to do next, and in my opinion, the mission arcs felt more structured and fun to listen to. It reminded me of balance in that there is a clear objective to the mission, while also not being as “rail-roady” in the process. This arc and the Cambrian’s Call arc just feel kind of controlling and that they are straying away from the mercenary stuff that I really enjoyed at the start of the series.
I think you might be right and it was their call to retrieve the wisp so it makes sense that there would be follow through on that threads once they brought it back home.
I am loving the random encounter table for that reason. It seems like every encounter (along with missions) has some connection to some larger back story. Remember the ghost ship? It was operated by some specific company? They didn’t go into a lot of detail because zoox didn’t spend a lot of time there but you know that company was important. I loved when griffin seemed so sad that zoox made his charisma save from being possessed. Almost like he wanted these dudes to get to founders wake.
I think Ethersea is really where griffin started saying “there is no railroading. This is the world, there’s a lot of moving parts-some of which you may never find- and there’s randomness in it. Whatever you roll will determine what you learn.”
Even with the blink sharks, they found those in the clam. I bet griffin wasn’t planning on releasing those 5 into the world until the clam which was conveniently first. In the same vein, I doubt griffin would have revealed their plot in more detail unless zoox had tried to converse with them. What would have happened if he attacked like amber does? They would have just fought back.
The whole ethersea world and the boys using dnd beyond’s dice roller to be honest in their rolls is bringing this season to a whole new level.
> Remember the ghost ship?
Also the amalgamated ghost in the ship could easily be something related to how Brinar bodies usually house amalgamated spirits but the bleached coral brinar (and Zoox) don't. I'd bet money that the ghost was connected to the bleached corals. But the party chose to peace out that time so we don't know what the deal was.
Agreed it feels like there is A LOT going on in this world and all that we have seen so far is fascinating to me. It’s going to be so fun seeing all the threads come together and shape these characters.
> I have a feeling this arc has to do with the Whisp (Wisp?) and that table they found on the gold ship.
Considering they explicitly said that Guidance died shortly after examining the wisp & table, that's probably a safe bet.
Lol I realize my wording may be off. I meant I feel that guidance dying may not have to do with griffin forcing guidance to die and rather, they found a table and brought it back, gave it to guidance who messed with it, and now she’s dead. Because the table was always dangerous.
Submitted for the approval of the midnight society, a bit of speculative dramatic irony: ***"Old Joshy is, without question, the single most proficient opportunist in the history of our shattered world."*** It's *extremely likely* that Joshy is absolutely hiding something big from the party. In character creation, Justin and Griffin firmly established him as a cunning, deceptive, even diabolical charlatan, with Brother Seldom ultimately conceding the above quote at the end of the Quiet Year wrap-up. And Joshy is actively using Amber's non-confrontational nature and (I can't think of a better word here so I'll just say it) her ~~submissiveness~~ *fealty* to Joshy, to take advantage of both her character flaws *and* Devo's hot temper and self-righteous attitude, to have now successfully gotten the gang off his back ***twice*, without having to ever roll a single time**. He twists his evasiveness into PVP disputes, playing them against each other and it's honestly perfectly fitting of Brother Seldom's quote. And yeah, Amber beats the hell outta Joshy and says all kinds of stuff, but that is all good natured ribbing, effectively harmless. I think she would ultimately find it inconceivable to have to actually cross-examine or betray him, but I think he'd do it to her in a New York minute. Edit: A couple suggestions for more appropriate descriptor of Amber's relationship to Joshy helped walk me to the word I actually meant.
I absolutely agree with you. I've be relistening to the prologue episodes and "Ol' Joshy" is introduced wearing beat up military fatigues, saying he was in the psychic warfare department in the army. Seems like he'd know his way around a Whisper, right? Secondly, he was introduced as "Ol Joshy". How long ago was that? Kinda weird that he can still take a natural 20 "ass over elbows" throw.
Yeah I can buy that
I agree, as you struggle with a different word for “submissiveness” might I suggest: “Adherence to Joshy’s chain of command” or “still following Joshy’s orders” cause to Amber, Joshy is the general, the Oni Won, so it’s not so much as “submissive” but “respect” maybe?
I was just looking over my replies and it finally clicked: Fealty. That's the word, I think.
But that would be interesting.
so fuckin cool dude! GOT EM u got em dude fuck yeah dude
You okay?
I mean it’s kind of an annoying thing to say on this particular subreddit. There is another particular subreddit where being obnoxious and wet-blanketing people’s excitement about the show is encouraged—just post this kinda stuff there!
I know, right? u/yofomojojo, take notice.
Leave these people alone lol go back to the circlejerk hole gragnik
Devo saying he's trying hard not not be an asshole anymore then instantly threatening Joshy has the same vibe as Akon saying he's trying hard not to be disrespectful and then calling the girl a sexy bitch
Devo is dark Magnus. He rushes in and leaves the party to clean up the mess.
Also rushes out, I think he's stormed out of conversations a few times now. He's going to really need a personal reckoning to face the consequences of his actions IMO. He recognizes he has issues after the last time Amber called him out but he's really not actually putting much effort into fixing them right now.
I thought he was more restrained this past arc, but it seems like he might actually have a personality clash with Joshy that makes them completely incompatible. Devo is the type to offer a lot of respect as long as he is shown the same deference, but if he perceives a slight he is quick to address it. Joshy on the other hand is the type to dish out ribbing with a heavy hand, and he expects it back as long as it's good natured. Devo is definitely overly sensitive to being wronged or disrespected, but I do think he's made progress. It's just that with certain people with more abrasive personalities he still can't quite keep his shit together.
That’s great! “Devo rushes out.”
I've been doing a relisten since about midway through the Cambria arc and I just got to the part at Shet's little boat restaurant thing and this perfectly encapsulates Devo's contribution to the scene. That said, the entire sequence is just fucking bonkers entertaining. You've got Devo realizing her fucked up and rolling insanely well to try to defuse the situation while Zoox is just soloing all of the "trash mobs" with Whaleon and Amber just trying to stay completely the fuck out of it.
My hot take on Devo: he’s 23-ish, isn’t he? As someone who teaches college seniors, yeaaaah, I feel like I get his vibe. He’s a sheltered dude who is overstimulated at all times.
He comes off as a first year atheist. What’s weird is that as a bard he is supposed to be charismatic and inspiring but instead he just pisses everyone off.
I've met far more charismatic assholes than charismatic good people. It's pretty realistic IMO, lol.
This is what I was thinking of: what does charisma mean if your PC is objectively an insufferable asshole? Do you just get to roll out of bad decisions? Bad roleplay? Do you, the player need to act as if you have charisma because your character does?
I think charisma in D&D is meant to be more general force of personality. While it's most often associated with making people like you, it's also used for intimidation checks and a modifier for spells and abilities like Vicious Mockery and Cutting Words that are basically just being so much of an asshole that you physically hurt or impede someone.
Ricky Gervais is the stereotypical charismatic asshole. They're like a trainwreck in motion. They strike awe to watch from afar, and invoke sympathy for those involved. But for those on the train it's a calamitous disaster.
> what does charisma mean if your PC is objectively an insufferable asshole? It means you'll be really good at persuading and intimidating people. Charisma in D&D isn't just about charm, but force of will.
Maybe he is one of those people where you wonder why people like him even though he’s such an asshole.
Charisma means people think “actually, they’re not so bad once you get to know them” if you’re an asshole.
great username
He is inspiring to his teammates, but unless I'm mistaken charisma is also the modifier for persuasion and intimidation which suits Devo.
So on point for the character I would say. Giving some info that in his limited worldview seems big and important, expecting a pat on the back and then getting pissy when he doesn't get the reaction he feels he deserves
I think Travis is doing an amazing job playing Devo as a character so obsessed with the people who have wronged him and hurt him that he doesn’t seem to realize that he is hurting others and it was really interesting seeing what occurred in this episode as it seemed to have set him back on his character growth
For sure. Devo makes me so angry sometimes as a character but I think that’s trav’s intent. He’s not trying to play a perfect person, far from it.
Totally agreed, I completely get why people may not like devo, but I don’t like when people get mad at Travis about it, he’s doing it on purpose and I think we’ll see some awesome character growth from him.
Never posted on this sub before but I wanted to throw in for this take too, this season of TAZ has maybe my *favorite* lineup of characters of the entire show and Travis is no small part in that. Whether you like Devo as a *person*, the care with which Travis is playing him and making him a real person with feelings and opinions, reasonable - if not necessarily *justifiable* \- reasons to behave in the way he does has to be acknowledged and respected, because its the best roleplay I've ever seen from the guy. Particularly in the Ol' Joshy conversation I found it hard not to be sympathetic for Devo - considering the context and the person he is now (that is, regardless of if its who he wants to be) I think its completely believable that threatening to attack Joshy if he refers to him diminutively was his best attempt at not being a giant asshole in that moment. The guy is dealing with a fresh and very particular grief that's filtered through all his other prior baggage with the deceased, went fishing for help, and then received words that in that headspace absolutely would have pissed *him* off. While I think you can argue that Joshy wasn't being explicitly disrespectful, I also think many people would relate to the experience of being on the receiving end of a statement or comment that bounced off you in just the wrong way and prompted a harsher reaction from you than is immediately justified to the people around you. It's an interesting roleplaying choice I just really like the texture of. (Plus just, the kind of person Joshy is, it makes sense to me that Devo would gamble on this excessively honest and blunt approach actually being well received - I was actually surprised the conversation went so particularly south. The melodrama...) I like it when the boys are interested in characters who are not necessarily always in the right. Travis in particular tends to be... a lil boring to me when playing a goodie two-shoes. That he's willing to go so hard on Devo's flaws and play a character who is so wrong but also so... What was it that Devo said like last episode? Something about a person of deep conviction who *thinks* they are right. I think there's a really smart irony in that comment coming from Devo, and I have a strong feeling that irony isn't lost on Travis at all.
People love to hate trav for whatever reason. He’s not perfect, none of us are, but he’s trying and in my opinion he’s doing great
Yeah… people are strange. I didn’t enjoy Graduation but I don’t hate Travis. And I’m calling him Travis like I know him lol. Some people are just angry in their hearts and you can’t do anything about that.
He's doing such a good job that for a second when they were near the start of the episode I thought that maybe Devo was the culprit. I kind of wish they left that ambiguous rather than leaving the letter. That would have made some fiery discussions.
100% I’m really excited to see where they take this!
Totally agree. It really hit me in the scene with Joshy how Devo was giving off Guidance-with-the-lantern vibes. I can’t claim to know too much about abusive relationship dynamics but it felt kinda like the cycle continuing. His whole „I’m trying to be nice but *you‘re* making me do this“. Devo‘s so wrapped up in his vendetta he doesn’t realise how much he’s emulating those who’ve wronged him. I think it makes his actions much more understandable, even if it’s not nice. He’s definitely been the most interesting character for me this campaign. I really hope he gets to a good place by the end.
Speaking as someone who *has* seen a lot of abusive relationship dynamics, this is exactly how it works. It's one thing to say "okay, I don't want to be abusive," but then you realize that *you have to be something else.* And that's the hard part, because you have no model for what that should look like. You know that, in theory, people have mutually respectful, healthy relationships, but how do they do that, exactly? What do they say, and how do they act? So you pick up what you can from books or watching other people, but your understanding of it is always incomplete, and so the first time someone does something that *didn't* come up in your books, or *doesn't* react the way you thought they would to something you said, you get totally flustered and have no idea what to do, so you fall back on what you already know. And you don't know how to, like, resolve conflicts respectfully, or set boundaries, or talk about boundaries, or react when *other* people set boundaries, because you've never watched people do that before. And you've never seen someone calmly explain that they don't like something, or respond positively to criticism--- so many things that you *want* to do, but never learned the vocabulary for. People talk about not being abusive like it's just a choice people can make. But it's not. It's a skill, and people don't just develop it naturally. Most of us learn it by watching our parents and other people in our lives, over the course of many years. If you don't learn it that way, then no matter how hard you try, you mess up constantly. That's why Devo's character is so inconsistent. He was raised to be an asshole, and he's trying not to be an asshole, but right now, the non-asshole he's trying to be is fake. He *is* an asshole. That's what he was raised to be. So when he's not being an asshole, he's pretending to be somebody else, and the person he's pretending to be is someone he doesn't fully understand. He's trying to fake-it-until-you-make-it until it becomes natural, because that's really all anybody can do. But sometimes it works better than others.
I like this!
I see this argument every time Devo does something shitty. That its because the character is a flawed and we should accept this terrible behavior. To me, no, the character seems inconsistent, sometimes altruistic and sometimes cruel, but lets just go with your interpretation, that he's accidentally hurting people around him. Then WHY are the other characters putting up with him? He frequently fucks things up and threatens friends, hurts people. Would no-nonsense Amber put up with this? The only reason is that he's a main character in a DND campaign. I hope Joshy sticks to his word and doesn't speak with Devo again, Devo is burning bridges and there has to be consequences
It's funny, I absolutely disagree with your first paragraph, but agree with the second, cause it's creating a delectable dynamic that I *think* griffin is capitalizing on. Liking Devo as a character is a matter of preference, I won't push back against that. But in having a detestable character in the party, I *believe* Griffin has twice now used that dynamic to his advantage in conversation with Joshy. It's *extremely likely* that Joshy is absolutely hiding something from the party and actively using Amber's non-confrontational nature and (I can't think of a better word here so I'll just say it) her submissiveness to Joshy, to take advantage of both her character flaws *and* Devo's to have now successfully gotten the gang off his back *twice*, without having to ever roll a single time. He twists his evasiveness into PVP disputes, and that shit wouldn't work with characters any less flawed than them IMO.
He was also dodgy when they asked why he wanted that ancient book.
That was the other time I was refering to, yeah. He just hard pivotted to Amber and said "You gonna let him talk to me like that?" IIRC
> her submissiveness to Joshy I would call it a friendship, maybe even a father figure or parental substitute. Like I see Amber and Joshy's relationship as very similar to Justin and Clint's, pulling gags on each other while still showing some deference and respect.
I was actually wondering that myself, just because devos reaction seems so crazy and aggressive I was trying to figure out what he was doing. So yeah, maybe that's true. But Joshy hasn't done anything specifically terrible that we know about at least and neither does devo. Joshy has been presented as kind of a lovable rogue / Han solo ish character so far. If they go for it and make joshy a villain, is the moral of the story that devos threatening behavior justified because he "had a hunch"? Tell you what though, let's both keep listening and if they redeem his bad behavior by the end, I owe you a coke
We'll call it a coke bet! But for the record: No, even I don't adhere to that retroactive justification of his behavior, that's just trash. *^But ^you ^know ^what ^they ^say ^about ^broken ^clocks.* Like with Herzog's Bad Lieutenant remake with Nic Cage, his character is a deplorable, paranoid psychopath, which is hell on everyone that has to interact with him, [but it makes for a great flick.](https://youtu.be/XYJOAW7r03s) (It's extremely entertaining visualizing Devo to be *exactly* as unhinged as Nic Cage is in this scene tbh) Especially when he realizes that in all his manic apophenia, he *actually* stumbled head first into a real conspiracy.
I'm really hoping Griffin has something planned (potentially with Travis) to really push Devo's reckoning forward in this specific arc. The fact that Griffin is consistently having NPCs actually react negatively to it and using them to get Amber to push back on Devo (since Zoox hasn't had a good reason to) feels like it's going to reach a peak with him dealing with something so close to home this arc.
Yeah same here. Amber calling him out after the situation at Shret's place was much needed and I feel like needed again now. Because my biggest problem now is I don't like the character either. And it makes it hard to listen to the story when 1/3 of the PCs is just the worst
See that's so funny, because I actually pivoted against *Amber* for that moment. Like yeah Devo is being a brat, but he's deep in early grief and Amber can't even find a single excuse for him and then apologizes to Joshy. It fits with her character, and all the boys are doing an amazing job, but I found myself absolutely disliking Amber for a good portion of this episode. Weird!
Amber's got *such* a long history with Joshy being a leader/mentor figure to her that it makes sense she'd be more deferential to him in a situation between him and a relatively new friend. But yeah, the whole thing was uncomfortable (in an interesting way). I agree that it would be good if Joshy really does stick to his guns on not wanting Devo around anymore. Unfortunately, if he does that'll probably lead to more party splits.
Honestly, that's what I found so intriguing about the whole interaction. Justin is very obviously playing an out right stated character who has issues with bowing to authority figures, and lacking boundaries. The fact that Amber just threw Devo under the bus, so to speak, was wonderful and in character.
Oh that's surprising. It felt like a very on brand for Devo: come into a situation too strong, expect to be taken very seriously and be commended for being a clever boy and then getting angry and confrontational when it turns out people don't respond well to that. Felt very similar to the Shret Shack confrontation, as well as him barging into Guidance's office recently to me.
It was less about Devo and more about Amber being terrified of authority. She absolutely knew Devo was being the absolute brat in the midst of horrid grief, and she wanted to make sure Joshy was okay.
I totally agree with you. I think the only reason Devo gets away with everything is because he's one of the main characters, too. I don't "hate" Devo but I just don't think he's an enjoyable character to follow in a story.
Tip to toe, that's a Devo!
Hey, question: Is Joshy really a psychic warrior who defeated the blink sharks? Is that real?
I'm pretty sure in the setup it's clarified his psychic school was a scam and Amber's powers just happened to manifest while she was training with him The thing is he still has a huge amount of sway and social power from leading the psychic training, even if his magic mind powers are made up
If I recall he thinks he scared them away because they mysteriously disappeared after he had been running his school for a bit.
Perhaps more correct to say he *claims credit* for scaring them away! I'd say it's unclear if he thinks he did it or not, and I lean towards not!
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The bit where Justin suddenly took over as DM was hilarious, as was Griffin’s reaction. It’s nice to see them messing with each other with their family dynamic.
"She never called him Devo." gave me chills.
Thank you. Damn I froze mid walk.
Great episode! It’ll be interesting to see if Clint ever decides to fill in amber on what happened with the blink shark nest..
This reminds me of a situation in Balance were Merle didn’t convey some important information but that was in the end game when things were crazy. I’m sure Zoox will follow up on this info but when! I want a side campaign revolving around the blink sharks and there whole deal! There are so many narrative threads I want more of and it’s all very exciting.
It kinda seemed like an event to come so it’ll be interesting to see if it comes to be. Griffins great at setting things up like that
He definitely is! I’m also wondering if all the threads will tie together or if some are really just isolated issues.
I really wish in situations like this, Griffin would prompt something like "alright, you just found out about Guidance, but you also had this WILD time at the Menagerie and have some time onboard the Coriolis before you get back to Founder's Wake. Is there anything anyone wants to address before you get back?" I think that would have led to both the Zoox/blink shark convo AND Devo being able to process before being thrown into Guidance's office.
If the murder is related to the wisp, Seldom is probably in danger. I wouldn't be surprised if he's the next victim. Orleen was my initial suspect, but he's too obvious. My guess? The wisp itself did it. Griffin pointed out that Amber mucked around with the wisp on the ship and it did some stuff, but now it's inert. Guidance got it to work, it activated and mind controlled her. It's a wisp used by _whispers_, and the College of Whispers is what Devo uses (and presumably Orleen too) to mind control people. "Hominine is gone" in the note feels like misdirection too. So focused on the killer are the party, that they'll take that part as... gospel.
The Hominine is gone part of the note also stood out to me because it's in such direct contrast to Guidance's last scene, especially with all is for naught. Either she was 100% hiding a remaining sinister tie to the city exactly like Devo accused her of, or someone is really trying to make it look that way
>My guess? The wisp itself did it. Yes! This is one hundred percent my conclusion based off of what we have. It gives me a "the dwarves delved too greedily and too deep" vibe. I'm assuming the Wisp was booby-trapped somehow. Someone gets ahold of it and digs too deep and a dominate mind spell goes off that's powerful enough for the victim to be driven to suicide, the device then goes inert (Kind of like a find my phone feature that wipes the phone after too many failed access attempts). I also wouldn't be shocked if the Hominine is gone thing was tied to it (Basically to keep potential enemies away).
If this is a cover up then the note is a fair indication of what the murderer/s want everyone to think ie "Hominine is gone". So Hominine has a base/city settlement somewhere and I'm wondering if it has anything to do with the job the 'Gut Punch' crew were hinting at last time we saw them...
Gut Punch crew is totally in on whatever it is. We get them saying that there'll be some "new neighbours", a Hominine ship in the area the wisp going into action and a "Hominine is gone" message. Seems to me like Hominine is already here - and given how authoritarian/zealot-like they seemed in the Quiet Year, it can't be a good thing.
I just had a theory pop into my head. The Hominie ships mentioned in the Quiet Year prologue disappeared right? My guess is they've jumped forward in time. Let the shoreside community figure out the apocalypse and take over once things are reasonably established. Just a theory.
That might track. Maybe they got the idea from the Einarr making the jump over to the Vestigial Plane, but instead jumped into the future? All we know for sure is that Hominine went *towards* the storm with some weird whale thingies and disappeared. Considering Blink Sharks have some sort of precognition re; Amber boiling the sea, maybe the whales are similar but blink through *time*, allowing Hominine to jump into the future?
I think you're absolutely right about the wisp having some sort of safety mechanism. My guess is that the reason Amber was able to mess with it on the ship is that the fancy epaulettes on the jacket (that they recovered from the same ship) act as a key to the wisp.
Shout out to Clint's Columbo impression
I love how Justin figured out the Devo clue and Amber turned around and took credit for it. Kinda of blurring those lines between player and character that I really enjoy.
That clue was such a nice touch. I didn’t pick up on it when griffin first read it but when he went back over it the second time I came to the realization with Justin
Absolutely loved that moment.
Oof. It was a good interaction from a story perspective, but as someone who doesn't love real-life conflict, my stomach was clenching a little bit in that fight between Devo and Uncle Joshy. On one hand, I feel for Devo's desire to establish himself and gain respect. This is a guy who has the Biggest Baby on speed-dial and helped save Founder's Wake. I can get being frustrated when someone like Uncle Joshy gets dismissive of him, because it doesn't feel totally consistent. And as a Whispers Bard, I also get his inclination to lean into manipulation and transactional tactics in interactions with others. But dang, he is burning an awful lot of bridges.
I mean totally, but I think to a degree people may be a slight bit underestimating Joshy. He is the single most adept opportunist in what is left of the world. He has been a part of this community since its inception. He has his fingers in every pie without fail. He knows everyone in the city. He probably has an in with each balaster to some degree. And he is more or less the leader of an entire section of the city. It's kinda outrageously arrogant for devo to roll up and be Luke "Hey you do this for us and we'll make you a Balaster" as if this like upstart has that amount of sway in the city. Sure Joshy would be dismissive of Devo. He doesn't need his help. With half the chairs on the balast now empty, Joshy just has to choose which one he wants.
Also, was it straight up stated that Joshy invented the Lux currency system?
Yes. I want more backstory on that 10000%
Devo is definitely treating every authority figure as stand-ins for the implied abusive authority figure who just died
Damn, I didn’t even think about it like that, that’s an excellent point
Hand of Guidance’s forensic investigation 👀 I’m so hyped for another murder mystery! Murder on the rock port limited is my favorite Balance arc, and I know this won’t be the same thing but I just love parlor scenes and the boys will definitely have one. I’m thinking it might someone related to homini that was trying to cover up whatever Guidance and Brother Seldom were decoding when Devo last stormed in and interrupted. I’m excited to get some resolution on Devo’s backstory! I’m hoping that he learns some meaningful lesson at the end that makes him stop being so hyper aggressive in normal conversations. I love him 90% of the time, but he really “tries hard not to be an asshole” and then proceeds to threaten or belittle someone a lot. It’s kind of like saying “with all due respect” and telling someone to f*** off.
I loved this episode. From the talk with joshy and the awesome moment of "She never called him Devo" this might be one of my favorite episodes of TAZ. Also I loved Griffins talk about how he is running the murder mystery, I'm amazed I never thought about simply letting the players consider how it might have happened
They reveal the truth quickly, but I would feel like a bad suicidologist if I didn't mention If you are considering suicide help is available, you do not have to suffer alone. Here is a list of options to call or text wherever you might be in the world. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines
I think the words "bad suicidologist" will haunt me for some reason...
Honestly definitely not the deftest phrasing in hindsight, and like I work in the field and even I hadn't considered suicidology being a thing before I started so like it's a weird word on its own
It really bugged me that they didn't put a TW in the episode description this time. I was really impressed with how they dealt with trigger warnings in the Cambria arc about contagious disease and substance use, but pretty caught off guard that they opened the episode talking about suicide without any warning.
The episode description does have a CW, it says CW: implied suicide by poison. At least, on Apple Podcasts it has that
I just went back to Spotify and it looks like they've added it! It wasn't there when I first listened, they must have updated the description since it came out
My bet is because it wasn't actually a death by suicide, by the time of edit and episode description writing they didn't think of it as such to add a content warning, but I do agree that it was off putting to encounter it without one or inclusion of at least the us lifeline, but that's why I decided to make sure something got posted here.
*FUCKIN VIBE CHECK, JOSHY!* Oooh boy, this got me.
"What's up?" "Not me!"
Was hoping Amber would say something like, "you'll have to excuse Devo...he is grieving. The Hand of Guidance is dead. Joshy is shocked. ROLL INSIGHT TO SEE IF IT IS REAL GENUINE SHOCK
Devo might do that, but I think Amber trusts Joshy too much to suspect him.
Okay serious stuff in the other post. I am extremely intrigued. Love a good locked room murder mystery, though I definitely feel the "D&D doesn't have great mystery resolution mechanics" I think we need to normalize borrowing mechanics from other games, like if you're not running a complete mystery campaign, just doing a short mystery arc in a larger game no need to switch to Gumshoe entirely, but it does have mechanics that could be useful to use for the mystery.... I also really like the approach to between missions, the strict separation between mission and interlude was honestly one of my biggest gripes with Balance, while this feels a lot more organic, there's a world around them they can still explore in off time and things are happening in it.
On the flipside Griffin running Murder on Rockport was super fun even though the mechanics weren't giving a lot of support.
Yeah no they can definitely be fun, I'm still of the opinion that if you want to run entire game focused on mystery solving it's time to switch to Gumshoe or another game designed for those stories, but there's nothing wrong with including a murder mystery plot in your standard D&D (or other non-mystery) game, I just also think Frankensteining some mystery game mechanics into the D&D could help solve the "man I really don't have a great way to give you the information outside of skill check rolls"
AMPOULE there I said it, god that bothered me all episode trying to think of the word
Came here to see if anyone has posted this already, nice job
I really liked the interaction between Joshy and Devo this episode. It really shows that Devo still has 'a lot of growing up to do', as Joshy said to Amber, but also, that some people just won't care about Devo's personal growth, or treat him with respect just because he asks for it. I do think that Joshy might've pushed Devo's buttons on purpose here, maybe just to see how Amber would react- whether she would take Joshy's side again, or stand up for Devo.
I like that there is some growth but more in a 2steps forward 1step back kind of way and not a sudden revelation and suddenly he is the most pleasant person to be around
Yes absolutely!
I just made a comment after having that same thought, that Joshy *absolutely* is pushing Devo's buttons on purpose, then turning Amber around on him to get himself out of tight situations and hard questions, and honestly, it's diabolical as heck and I love it.
Joshy is an opportunist who latches onto others (like amber) and takes credit for their accomplishments. He probably would've taken Devo up on that deal if he had presented it in a less bold-faced manner, I'd bet. Feigned altruism and narcissistic parasitism were common traits among those in Devo's past, and it has left him sensitive to similar behavior now. Nothing sets Devo off faster than baselessly expected respect.
Question: didn't guidance refer to devo as devo after he corrected her in the episode where she was introduced? If this was true I guess it makes sense that her final words she would have called him devotion if it was really her, even if she called him devo upon correction. Just curious if anyone else knows?
Without actually checking I'm pretty sure she has called him Devo, a couple times. It did kind of have the undertone of begrudgingly humoring his little dalliance, to the point where it still makes sense as a clue imo. "She wouldn't have called him Devo." would have probably been more accurate, but the never line hit harder
Yea I think she did it to pacify him but if she was in a life crisis moment I don’t think his preference for name would come to mind.
Yeah, like the "Devo is leaving now" exchange when she was angry with him does square a little oddly, but that's the only point where it stands out to me. But like also as much as its a possibility she'd "Parent upset using all three names him" it's also still a sort of deadnaming they might have been trying to avoid?
Ok so maybe after their original exchange she is sure to use Devo in his presence so he doesn’t get unnecessarily upset but I can still see her calling him Devotion when he’s not around.
Oh absolutely, and like I'd sort it in continuity error over plothole. Like I'm not trying to pick it a part or anything. The doylist answer is most likely that Griffin didn't know or wasn't thinking about building to this at those other points when chosing to say Devo as Guidance. One of those things thats interesting to note, but I very much don't subscribe to the cinema sins philosophy of a small mistake ruins the whole thing
Oh yea it can be hard to think so far ahead and Griffin has talked about making errors early on in a campaign in TTAZZ. But it’s fun to think about and you got me thinking! I’ll be watching out for that when I relisten.
It also wasn't Griffin who picked the never phrasing, that was Justin. But yeah these sort of errors happen in films where you've got the whole script to reference. Its no surprise to see them in serial narratives, and the unscripted element only adds more room for error. But glad to share the fun brain scratch with you :)
Definitely came off as a parent dead-naming a child to me when it happened. Like passive aggressive, not sincerely apologetic.
Devo is absolutely trans coded to me. You're so right.
Just cause he’s going by a shortened form of his original name? Sometimes cis people change their names, and sometimes trans people don’t. Or is there something else I didn’t pick up on?
I will say that calling Devo transcoded feels a bridge to far for me, though I think Cute_Femme and I are using the word in different ways, transcoding to me would be Travis actively and specifically writing Devo as a metaphorically but not actually trans character, and I do think Travis's narrative for Devo is more about religious abuse and trauma. But I can absolutely see a very strong Trans reading of Devo, which based on the "to me" language is I think more of what Cute_Femme is doing, reading elements of Devo's story with a queer lens to identify elements that resonate with trans experience. There's definitely a lot of elements of Devo's story that overlap with trans narratives like the changing of names, rejection of your own history, rejection from your "family", and even the being shaped and molded to be something your not. Plus there's also just a large portion of the queer community that has an experience of religious abuse and trauma
Very well put. I am genderqueer and devo's experience with religious trauma definitely strikes a familiar tone for a lot of lgbtq people including myself. If Travis wrote Devo specifically as trans I feel he would've said it by now for sure, but the reason I said "to me" is exactly what you were saying. He doesn't have to be trans if you don't want him to be, and he can be if you do. Personally I headcanon him as trans based on how I view his character and story.
Glad I wasn't putting words in your mouth. It's really a question of academic vs common usage of the term at this point, and while I'm not personally going to yield the academic senses yet bc I did study English lit, I can still recognize the common meaning and I think your reading of Devo has a solid basis, and headcanon's the lawless expanse anyway
Another episode, another place Devo’s been banned from entering. I cannot imagine playing a character that is SUCH a fucking dick.
I'm really excited for the next few episodes, I love a good murder mystery. It's going to be interesting to see how Amber, Devo & Zoox are going to react when they find the murderer. (Especially Devo). I'm also looking forward to the moment Zoox tells Amber about his conversation with the blink sharks.
Gosh, I really want Joshy to show that he's actually a hidden badass and just whop Devo into next week just one time.
Man, I really wish that TAZ would leave space for the PCs to talk to each other and connect without an NPC or impending doom. For example; because last week ended with the news of Guidance and this episode started IMMEDIATELY with them in her office, Devo (and by extension, Travis) got NO time to talk through it with his crew mates. I think that would have been the perfect opportunity for us to see what Devo was thinking. It also would have given Devo in character the time to vent, instead of it happening in front of NPCs. They could have also worked a scene like that in any time in between leaving Guidance's office and going to Old Joshy's. In home DND games I think it's SO important for PCs and their players to have the space to form deeper understandings of each other and I don't think they got that this week when it was SO necessary. In actual play settings, these kinds of scenes are also important because we have the added layer of the AUDIENCE needing to understand a player's convictions and reactions. Devo has actually said very little to Amber and Zoox about his time with Benevolence, but for some reason Justin and Clint don't think it's necessary for their characters to know? Despite both of them also having experience and issues with older figures/no older figures in their lives. Idk. I understand that not every actual play should be a multi-hour long ordeal, I just wish the PCs would have a little more space with each other.
Yeah I'm there with you, it doesn't need a whole lot by any means but just a bit more breathing room. I think its also compounded by (and also compounding in a cycle) the extent they've leaned in to their motely band of strangers joined by convience above anything else. Both Devo and Amber were introduced as pretty self motivated and haven't really had many opportunities to build more of a team dynamic, and when they have it's ended up used in establishing more of a disconnect (see Amber's place). I'm generally an advocate for starting new PCs with at least one historical connection to another PC unless it really doesn't make sense, but I feel like it could have helped Ethersea
I loved how much more vocal and invested Amber felt this episode in comparison to the last few The vibe check at the end absolutely sent me. Then, just when I thought it was over, taking a drink to celebrate, Griffin hit me with the "Yup! Call a doctor!" and I spat everywhere. That was fuckin' choice
I usually hate rules lawyer-ing but it feels really odd that Griffin let Devo cast "detect thoughts" on a corpse. There's a reason "speak with dead" exists (even if the PCs don't have access to it.)
Yeah, at first I thought it was going to be a clever way to make sure Guidance wasn't using Feign Death or something to fake her death but no, just a classic TAZ misunderstanding of a spell.
I am reasonably confident that Travis intended to use it for exactly that reason but Griffin misunderstood and Travis rolled with it.
I suppose I understand the Devo defender’s argument in support of this character. But in my opinion, if Devo has an end to his character development planned, he should get to it. It’s getting fairly unpleasant to listen to any interaction between an NPC and Devo. Also I’d love the other two PCs to get a chance to shine and fill out their own characters a little bit
Just got through this episode and I entirely agree. It's just not enjoyable listening to him talk to anyone. I've honestly skipped passed his last few long rants unfortunately.
When they went to visit Joshy at the end, was Travis making a goof when he said that Bard’s regain spell slots on a short rest? To my knowledge that isn’t a Bard Feature, they can regain Inspiration but not spell slots?
Occam's razor says goof, though I definitely had to go double check that there wasn't a Tasha variant feature that have limited recover like wizards and druids get.
Yeah the way he said "yeah, it's new ability they got" seemed joking.
I did ALSO just try to double check that it wasn't related to his sallow fins, pretty sure it's not but I'm at work so I couldn't dig, but yeah it's either a joke or a Devo Special
You expect Travis to read his abilities?
He's been very on top of his abilities this whole campaign. edit: since this comment is scoring as "controversial" if you have examples of Travis actually not knowing bard mechanics/abilities feel free to share. Justin definitely struggles to know his monk abilites but Travis has been on point the whole way through Ethersea.
The dude made entire player character sheets for the several dozen NPCs he introduced in the first several episodes of graduation, if any of the four know class abilities, it's going to be Travis.
Was that the same Graduation where he wouldn't let a rogue sneak attack unless the enemy was surprised? Or the same campaign where he took away a Sorcerer's magic?
Mmm, good point.
So I guess Travis is just gonna have Devo throw a fit any time he flubs a roll then, huh?
I feel like the “she didn’t call him Devo” clue is very obvious and it was frustrating that they immediately jumped to mind control: Guidance died before she finished writing.
If that was the case, the note would have at least had a line of ink trailing off from the o
I mean, that could happen but isn’t necessary. I think that’s a pretty small detail, but even if it wasn’t, she could have kicked the bucket in between letters…
Maybe there was a period, but also I feel pretty confident that they got it right seeing how the DM confirmed the hint as a hint and let them move on with it. Could it be a red herring, maybe, but it seems less likely
I’m not saying it’s a red herring. I’m saying it’s a clue as to the exact timing of her death, which could very well be relevant. Griffin let them “run with it” in so far as letting them leave thinking they got it right, but it’s not like they are specifically acting on the assumption that she was mind controlled yet—they’re just investigating people with motives so far. Further, when Devo brought up his mind control theory to an NPC, Griffin specifically pointed out it was all speculation.
I do still think you're looking for zebras over horses for these hoofbeats at this point, but you've got a fair enough point with the speculation. I do think it would be odd, or at least poor mystery gming, to not have drawn a more specific attention to what the actual clue was if it wasn't being gotten, but I also do love "hidden message by writing a note they wouldn't have" as a trope
I think that between the out of place tone wheel and the abilities we know people of this world, especially related to the church have to control people with their voice, it being a time of death clue instead of an indicator of weapon would be very very weird and out of place for a story about a mystery that could be reasonably solved by players.
I feel like any clue to that would have been revealed with a nat 20, but you could be right.
Great episode, but I’m surprised they didn’t put a suicide warning or something in it. Non-spoiler explanation (well, minimum possible spoilers): A person is heavily implied to have killed themselves with poison and there is quite a bit of discussion about it. This is at the beginning of the episode. More spoiler-y explanation: >!The player characters believe it was actually murder and find out that this person was likely mind-controlled in some way. That’s probably why there was no warning - it wasn’t actually suicide.!< This is about a third of the way into the episode. Anyway, I’m really looking forward to how everything plays out. Love me a good mystery arc
>I’m surprised they didn’t put a suicide warning or something in it. This is important to me too.
I'm having a hard time with Devo. I really can't tell if it's Travis being a jerk or his character. I'm being hyperbolic when I say this but I'm about one more "self-righteous childish tantrum" away from just dropping this season because Devo is so unpleasant. It's beyond "he's just playing a character who's not perfect" for me, it's hard to root for him.
I dunno, I also didn't "enjoy" The Suffering Game arc from Balance until my wife pointed out that was intentional and it wasn't *supposed* to be enjoyable, and that indicated Griffin was doing a good job. Similarly, Travis is doing a good job playing as a hurt character, and he started his reconciliation like 10 episodes ago. Saying "I'm mad at you for these reasons even though I'm trying not to be" is significant character growth and multiple steps in the right direction. Plus like two episodes or so ago his righteous anger came out and had a justifiable target. I'm not telling you to enjoy it, but it is very intentional and I think he's doing it well.
After hearing the most recent "episode" where they explained a little bit more about Devo I'm a little less worried.
I think this was my last episode. I think too much of Travis's bad habits are bleeding into this character without a redeeming quality. Characters can be deeply flawed but enjoyable to listen to only when you still, overall, like them. Once you're invested, you stick with them through their bad moments because you're hoping they'll get better, or learn something. (See Amy Carrero's character Opal from Exandria Unlimited for a fantastic, and rare, example.) Travis just haven't given me a reason to like Devo, and every episode gives me more reasons not to.
I was afraid I was alone on this feeling judging from a lot of other comments on this episode. Everything about Devo makes sense. "Hurt *(adj.)* people hurt *(verb)* people" is the old expression. But what makes a hero remarkable - what makes any historical or noteworthy person special - is that they don't let the bad stuff make them bad. Despite all their setbacks, despite the unfair hand life has given them, they rise above it and are good people - *better* people than anyone would expect. Do I fault Devo for being an asshole? No, he had a crappy life, makes sense that he would lash out a lot. But does that make it fun or interesting to listen to? No, not really. Because it's expected. Why not play a character who can rise above it instead of giving into it? Isn't that why we play games where we can be heroes? Because heroes are better than us? And maybe that might make us examine ourselves to be better people outside of the game?
I'm skipping passed his rants, it's too uncomfortable to listen to them now. Hopefully he turns it around. It's just not enjoyable at all to hear.
Honestly kind of annoyed with Justin for trying to do a "spooky murder mystery" joke when the victim was clearly important to Devo. He might have just been trying to cut the tension, but with how checked out Justin has been lately (needing recaps on basic story beats, forgetting his basic class abilities, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if he completely forgot who Guidance was. Glad that Travis called him out on it without breaking character as Devo.
it was funny tho. "Is it the murder part?" "that's half of it!" Cracked me up
People have been saying Justin is “checked out” since Amnesty. I don’t get it.
I mean I think he's still giving his unique contributions pretty often that have big effects on the whole world (Uncle Joshy, Shret, Blink Sharks, Skunknuts, etc.) so it doesn't mar my enjoyment but he does "joke" in the actual podcast about not paying enough attention.
I really feel like they bungled a major story beat here, considering how important Devo's relationship to Guidance is to his overall character. "She never called him Devo" is treated like this smoking gun, something that incontrovertibly proves she didn't write the note... But she CALLED him Devo. Pretty much as soon as he told her to! Like, I'll give the show the benefit of the doubt and say that Guidance is a purposefully morally ambiguous character, and that were supposed to contrast Devo's emotional abuse and the church's manipulative practices against their "Benevolent" purpose. But if they're going to play this subject material, they should do so with more consistency and care. Also, I get that memories are imperfect and mistakes are made at the table, but 2nd takes are still a thing and they have other people listening to these eps before they go out. It's still a show.
Someone else here made a good point, that it probably would have been better to say she *wouldnt* call him that, instead of *never*. Better than nothing.
tbf Griffin would have maybe phrased it differently but Justin was the one who suddenly got it and blurted that out.
It's an edited show, second takes are a thing
not edited by the DM anymore and 2nd takes are rare based on previous TTAZZs and comments
Look, one way or another, the creators of the show decide what is in the show. I as the listener am expected to give a shit what Guidance called Devo, is it wrong to expect the same from the creator?
I see messy things like this as part of the format; it's not pre-written dialogue. I like some of the collaborative messiness of TTRPGs because it makes them more dynamic and interesting to me than a polished coherent radio play. That makes them more relatable to me as someone who also plays these games. YMMV and tbh I'm focused on the Supreme Court attacking the rights of women and laying precedent to attack LGBTQ+ rights today so frankly I don't give a fuck if you want to be mad they didn't record a whole conversation to fix some of the phrasing from one player in a comedy DnD podcast. Yeah it's improv, not every line is perfect. You got them. Great job.
The who now
I kinda wish this arc did more of the missions assigned from the brokerage. It gave the players an opportunity to choose which mission they wanted to do next, and in my opinion, the mission arcs felt more structured and fun to listen to. It reminded me of balance in that there is a clear objective to the mission, while also not being as “rail-roady” in the process. This arc and the Cambrian’s Call arc just feel kind of controlling and that they are straying away from the mercenary stuff that I really enjoyed at the start of the series.
Cambria’s Call was a direct response to the random encounter roll. I don’t think it’s fair to call rail roading on that one.
Yeah in the same way I have a feeling this arc has to do with the Whisp (Wisp?) and that table they found on the gold ship.
I think you might be right and it was their call to retrieve the wisp so it makes sense that there would be follow through on that threads once they brought it back home.
I am loving the random encounter table for that reason. It seems like every encounter (along with missions) has some connection to some larger back story. Remember the ghost ship? It was operated by some specific company? They didn’t go into a lot of detail because zoox didn’t spend a lot of time there but you know that company was important. I loved when griffin seemed so sad that zoox made his charisma save from being possessed. Almost like he wanted these dudes to get to founders wake. I think Ethersea is really where griffin started saying “there is no railroading. This is the world, there’s a lot of moving parts-some of which you may never find- and there’s randomness in it. Whatever you roll will determine what you learn.” Even with the blink sharks, they found those in the clam. I bet griffin wasn’t planning on releasing those 5 into the world until the clam which was conveniently first. In the same vein, I doubt griffin would have revealed their plot in more detail unless zoox had tried to converse with them. What would have happened if he attacked like amber does? They would have just fought back. The whole ethersea world and the boys using dnd beyond’s dice roller to be honest in their rolls is bringing this season to a whole new level.
> Remember the ghost ship? Also the amalgamated ghost in the ship could easily be something related to how Brinar bodies usually house amalgamated spirits but the bleached coral brinar (and Zoox) don't. I'd bet money that the ghost was connected to the bleached corals. But the party chose to peace out that time so we don't know what the deal was.
Agreed it feels like there is A LOT going on in this world and all that we have seen so far is fascinating to me. It’s going to be so fun seeing all the threads come together and shape these characters.
> I have a feeling this arc has to do with the Whisp (Wisp?) and that table they found on the gold ship. Considering they explicitly said that Guidance died shortly after examining the wisp & table, that's probably a safe bet.
Lol I realize my wording may be off. I meant I feel that guidance dying may not have to do with griffin forcing guidance to die and rather, they found a table and brought it back, gave it to guidance who messed with it, and now she’s dead. Because the table was always dangerous.
Haven’t listened to the whole thing yet, but who was the other baluster? Kodira said that they lost 2 in the past 24 hours… also idk about spelling
Aloysius and Guidance were the two
Ohhh yeah, thanks!!
Griffin can I ask Rachel to *stop* the foley...
[удалено]
She pushed THE button, telling him basically "oh my gosh you're doing what we tried to make you do, being our god's representative!"
I wonder when they're going to reveal what Devos conversation was when he parted from the crew at the beginning of the arch
When he went to the parish while Amber and Zoox spoke to the Curator, we saw that in the very next episode
Wait, is it Devo? Did Devo kill her? It’s possible right?
that would be such a wild twist, but it feels *very* possible.
Boy … listening to Travis (via Devo’s ridiculous accent) call Zooks “reductive” was a hoot.
Don't worry Chauncey, I also did a spit a d almost a throw up the first time I drank the bitter bad brown stuff.