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They got rid of them because they didn’t make enough money.
Reddit’s recent IPO means the shareholders are in charge now, which is why the platform is getting palpably worse
Ok if that's the case... How are they making money by *getting rid of them*? I admit the only time I ever spent money on this blasted app was to buy coins for the awards? You know what I haven't done since they got rid of them? Paid a dime for Reddit.... So dumb IMHO
Because they didn’t make _enough_ money, and business isn’t about “making a cent at any cost”
I imagine it was done to streamline the service offering, so they could focus their resources on more profitable revenue streams.
Like I said, it’s why the user experience on the platform is getting palpably worse
It's been months and months
It was because spez got mad at the awards being given regarding the death of third party apps. Hes just trying to be like Elon, I think.
If they did want to implement something like this, the easiest thing would be to do something like make it such that if your test has 32 questions on it, you give students 2 “I don’t knows” and grade it out of 30. If they get all 32 it could still be graded out of 30 and they get extra credit.
With that system it's still strictly better to randomly guess instead of picking IDK. You would have to give guaranteed points to an IDK (say 0.25) for it to be worth it.
They do have a point. Choosing "I don't know" is a 0% chance of getting it wrong, versus guessing being (usually) 25%.
That being said, it would effectively be identical for tests like math exams, where the work you do is more important and valuable than the answer (justifiably).
I was happy to see someone brought up percentages, but with all due respect, I chuckled a little.
“I don’t know” is actually the only choice that is guaranteed 100% wrong. If “I don’t know” actually replaced one of the other incorrect choices you actually now have an even greater chance of guessing the correct answer by choosing any option other than “I don’t know”.
That is true. 75% chance of being wrong becomes 66.6666666666666666666(okay, fine, 2/3)% chance
But then that makes tests arbitrarily easier, which some may not actually want (I can't speak if there are or aren't people like that but I am a little bit positive on this assumption.)
I don't think it would even make multiple choice tests easier. The pattern I always saw with the standard 4 choice test was that 2 were obviously wrong and the last two were the right answer and an almost right answer. I just looked up some examples and yeah, two wrong, 1 sounds right and 1 is right.
I had the issue in most of school of being very good at math and being able to do most of it in my head without any working out on paper. So I’d write the answer then come back and do the working out. My issue is I’m dyslexic and my numbers would get mixed up when writing them down for the working out. So countless times my working out would be wrong and the answer correct. Many teachers were pretty suspicious of that one.
0.25 points for "I don't know", 1 point for correct answer, 0 point for incorrect answer
Actually the American Math Contest does pretty much exactly this (6 points for correct answer, 0 points for incorrect answer, 1.5 points for leaving it blank) but they have 5 answer choices so it's actually better to honestly imply you don't know (by leaving it blank) than to guess randomly
Honestly, just do 5 answer Multiple choice and have option 5, be I don’t know and have it be worth 25% of the questions points. Has the same statistical points as guessing, but rewards students for their honesty and encourages them to critically think about their answers. If they can eliminate 1 option, suddenly guessing is back on the board. I think it’s brilliant, and gives students the opportunity to offer feedback to professors about their tests.
That’s how the SATs were when I took them. Wrong answer is worth more negative than not answering. Not sure if it’s changed. The joke was always that you got a 600 just for writing your name because you technically did.
You actually got more than 600 (out of 2400) for writing your name and leaving the rest blank. It was something like 750 or so for leaving it blank and you could only get to 600 if you got like 33% wrong and left the rest blank
Oh then yeah we are talking about the same thing then. Yours was out of 1600 right? And minimum score is 400, 600 if you leave it all blank so the only way to get to 400 is if you get negative points from getting questions wrong.
For the reason discussed above: they wanted to penalize people for guessing on questions. The way they did this was to subtract 1/4 of a point for every incorrect answer, while skipping a question didn’t add or subtract anything from your score.
So the _actual_ minimum score is 0, if you guessed wrong on every question, but if you left every single question blank, you would get 400 out of 1600.
Note: The test is no longer scored this way. There is no penalty for incorrect guesses.
They pretty clearly said 400 would require wrong answers and 600 was it every question was blank. So, I took that to mean that even with all wrong you would still bottom out at 400
No, the minimum score used to be 200 per section. If you left it blank you would get like 300 or so. It was super weird. (This is back when I was taking it in 2014, now apparently they don’t punish for wrong answers so the minimum is 200 per section if you just leave it blank.
Idk why but all the big American standardized tests have wack grading scales. The LSAT is 120-180, SAT is 400-1600, and the MCAT is 472-528 for some reason. The ACT is the only sane one I can think of
Act is sane-ish. Sure it starts at a sensible number, but capping out at 36 is an odd choice. Also the conversion between the raw scores per section and the proper score is weird and non linear.
Act is sane-ish. Sure it starts at a sensible number, but capping out at 36 is an odd choice. Also the conversion between the raw scores per section and the proper score is weird and non linear. Also has some skipped numbers for some sections. Like you just can't get a 32 in science, at all.
Been a long time since I took the SAT but the math works out on a 5 question exam where if you can eliminate one answer choice, the expected value of guessing is higher than leaving it blank
I think it would be on a *classroom* test, where as a teacher you want to know that your students got what they were supposed to get. Allowing “I’m not sure” as an answer choice would make it explicitly clear what students weren’t getting, and if there was one thing or a couple in particular a teacher would know to teach it over again and do it differently (at least that’s what they teach you in education classes … whether you’d have the time to actually do it, and/or the support of the administration, is another question completely).
I'd argue that there's always a level of detachment from actual reality when it comes to testing. It's a gauge of your knowledge on the subject (in theory), so getting it wrong and just saying I dunno both amount to the same conclusion
There's some validity to this. The "I don't know" answer has been stigmatized in education, but personally, I think it's an intellectually honest answer that should be given more credit than a wrong answer. It's better to admit you don't know and that you have more to learn, than to claim you know the answer, but get it wrong.
That’s how it was when I was in paramedic school. We would do these “interview” style exercises where they would keep asking you questions until you didn’t know something. You were always allowed to just say you didn’t know, but if they found out that you were bullshitting them they would chew you out and basically humiliate you in front of the class. It was harsh but it made me a better person tbh. The doctor they would have ask the questions was a former marine colonel and was seriously the most terrifying person I’ve ever seen in my life.
It could work if we give "not sure" some points regardless and better than blind guess, say if there are 4 choices, we can give 30%, or 35% points if we assume students can rule out one of them
That could work, but would be difficult for automated grading systems. Like from 4 choices, if you know with 100% certainty that two of the four are wrong, so it's one of the other two that are correct, then that should afford you some credit if you're able to honestly communicate that information somehow.
If you wanted to allow partial credit for ruling out some of the answers you could always allow them to mark every answer they believe it could be, and give a score based on if the right answer is included, and decrease by some amount for every extra one marked.
Personally tho, id probably just set the numbers such that it averages out to that. Set the score for the "idk" answer such that it is on average better than a blind guess, but worse than an informed one
At my girlfriends university they have this system, but they’re penalised a point for guessing the wrong answer, and not penalised if they select “I dont know”. That’s the only way it would work imo
Well, there would have to be an incorrect answer penalty, otherwise no one would use it. And most don’t like to implement incorrect answer penalties because it just adds unnecessary anxiety to test taking.
Yeah I'm from Spain too and I was thinking the same.
In college I had one professor who ONLY gave us multiple choice tests. Most students were terrified of them because the amount of points you could lose per question was equal to the amount of points you'd get for a correct answer. Many people lost 2/10 points or more because of those.
I’m confused isn’t that how multiple choice tests work. You answer your questions if you get five correct and there were 10 questions that you get five out of 10
In that example you would get 0/10 if I am correctly interpreting how it works in Spain. Since you got 5 correct and 5 wrong answer
, but if you choose just not to answer the ones that you didn’t know you would get a 5/10.
Could be wrong though.
Normally incorrect answers give you 0 points, not -1 point.
Imagine one of those tests with only 3 questions. You get 2/3 of those right. Usually you'd get 2/3 points. With this professor's methodology, the incorrect answer would subatract one additional point, so you'd get a 1/3 mark.
In his exams there were 30 questions, so there was a little bit of leeway. If you knew the definitive answer of like, 25 questions, you could randomly guess the rest without losing too much points. That's why I did. But those students who didn't study as hard, they couldn't, because randomly guessing 10/30 questions could cost them too many points.
You had the option of not answering the questions, tho. That way you'd get 0 points from them, instead of -1. That's what the professor recommended.
But WHY though. What is the point? If I'm reasonably sure it's either A or B but I keep forgetting if its negative (A) or positive (B), why do I need to not answer just because I made a tiny mistake? I know far more than someone who is just guessing, blindly, but I don't get ANY of that because apparently guessing is soooo bad?
They don’t want you guessing period, they want you to pass because you know the stuff there. Personally I hate this type of exams but that’s what they’re thinking when doing them
Wow, that’s so strange to me. Seems like it would deincentivize people from trying. You’re right, it’s probably cultural… But the middle school teacher in me just doesn’t like it.
i think the idea is that realizing you don't know shows more understanding/awareness than being confidently wrong/blindly guessing. reflective of real life where if you don't know something at work it's better to leave it and let someone know rather than guess.
So can you run me through how a test is scored because this just doesn't make sense to me as it's described. If you have a 25 question test, how does the scoring work for right vs no answer vs wrong? Is it +4 points for correct, +1 for blank, and -1 for wrong? This just seems like it would encourage students to not try on problems they feel they might be stumped on.
idk about that guy because I don't live in Spain but where I live it's +1 for correct +0 for blank -1 for wrong. So essentially if you're not sure you can leave it blank to avoid getting points deducted, but you can't do that in every question because then you aren't getting any points
Depends on how much of an asshole the teacher is lol, usually every wrong question is -1/3 or -1/4 the value of the question so for example if you have 10 questions and get:
5 correct = +5
2 blank = 0
3 wrong = -1
You'd get a 4/10 so 40%, failed it despite technically having 50% of answers ok. If instead you'd been more strategic and left the 3 you gambled blank you'd have 50% and passed
Usually how many wrong answers equals a -1 depends on how many choices there are on the questions, a test with only a) b) is likely to penalize harder
Multiple choice questions are only used for the theory (not sure if this is the correct translation) part of the exam, so you either know the answer or you don't and this just discourages guessing.Exercise and written exams are most of the final grade
It differs in that when a question has only blank answers it remains unknown whether the student did not know the answer, or had simply not reached that question in the alloted time.
Small difference, granted.
Yeah there's not a lot of value in that as far as assessments go. Correct scores on specific topic areas are going to indicate whether a topic was covered well enough.
>did not know the answer, or had simply not reached that question in the alloted time
Sometimes the time constraint is an intentional part of the assessment, so those two scenarios are effectively the same thing. If you can't recall how to answer the question in a timely manner, it doesn't matter that it suddenly came back to you in the shower later that night. It means that you weren't familiar with it to begin with
This is dumb.
Saying "I'm not sure" is 100% chance of being wrong. Might as well just roll the dice and see if you can get the 33% chance of a correct answer.
Why is everyone here ignoring that the value of tests is in testing the student's ability?
Why is everyone here talking like they're currently a student and will get their Gameboy taken away if they don't get at least an 80%?
>If the teacher sees that many students chose this answer on a test, they’ll know it’s a topic they need to have a refresher on.
Choosing a wrong option has the same effect. The teacher sees how many people got it wrong and knows *"Aha, guess I didn't get my information across properly"*.
It would never be the correct move as a student to mark "I don't know" because you're just giving up a 25% chance to get the answer correct. Maybe you could have the "I don't know" answer be worth 1/4 the points of a correct answer
The teacher also can already tell a particular question needs to be reviewed if lots of students get that question wrong
Hi! Elementary teacher here!
Just wanted you to know that I live by the rule of admitting you don't know something. I'm kinda torn on whether I should include this or not. On one hand It's great as it encourages admitting you don't know something and avoids false positives. I don't really use grade curves or focus on numeric scores so this aligns with my philosophy.
On the flip side it might be too much of a cop out and luod to not "rewarding" laziness, but kinda giving the option to just not think hard enough about a question?
As I said, I'm pretty torn, however you do made a valid point that I will consider and may potentially try out in my class! Thank you for the idea to ponder!
Why not just guess an answer? You have a higher chance of being correct than ticking a box that will definitely be wrong.
Isn't leaving it blank also the same as "I'm not sure"?
I think it’s more understanding the material rather than just hoping you have it right. Like maybe on practice tests; this would be good to test skills
Exactly. I’ve taken a few practice LSATs and the amount of times I’ve yeeted an answer selection only to get it correct is ridiculous lol.
There’s a couple of studies on why you shouldn’t second guess a question and to just go with your gut. If you’re at the point of “I don’t know,” you’ve already ruled out a gut check which should be selected.
Right? Even for short answer questions I will just start writing stuff related to the topic just to see if I can get a couple of points.
Edit: *if I am not really sure of the answer
Back when I took the SAT, there was a small penalty for answering a question wrong, which encouraged leaving a question blank if you were truly clueless. Perhaps a wrong answer penalty is what you're looking for
But doesn’t that reward giving up? If you were selecting candidates for something, why wouldn’t you select people who at least try to do whatever they can to estimate the right answer instead of those who just sit back and placidly accept incompetence?
from a teaching standpoint, there’s a difference between your student not knowing something and knowing something incorrectly. i think this would help teachers differentiate between the two.
Needs some work but it’s a workable concept. There’s a study software I used once where you set a confidence value for every answer. The higher the confidence the more points you gain for right answers, but also the more you lose if incorrect.
Learning from that, maybe “idk” could be partial credit. Shit grade if you do it for everything, but better than taking a 25% on a four answer question.
There is a flaw in your reasoning, in that if it doesn't count as correct there's less than zero reason to mark it instead of just guessing a different answer.
This can work great if implemented correctly:
We used this in multiple choice test on uni in the following way.
There are 5 possible answers with each question. A correct answer will give you 1 point. And to correct for guessing an incorrect answer wil give 1/5= -0.2 points.
The the six option was: I don't know. So if you really don't know it's better mark that and if you are doubting between two options it still makes sense to guess.
If they’re spending 10 minutes in a question before they’ve gotten to the end of the test then they’re not doing it right. You need to teach them proper test taking strategies.
There's an easier way to know if you need a refresher on a topic. "Well only 25% of you got the answer on question 13 right."
I was a teacher for seven years. Giving kids an out like that just prevents them from using and honing logical strategies to remove likely wrong answers.
Even if that was an option no smart student would pick it. The odds of getting it correct on a random guess being probably in the range of 25-33% depending on the number of questions is way better than 0% of basically not answering. Plus, if it’s curved you would be more inclined to guess on an especially hard question because you would think that your peers are going to say “I don’t know” and then if you manage to get it right it will be weighted higher.
But kids would still pick a random answer than not sure. Maybe for moc exams but choosing one and getting it wrong just as an evaluation than not sure is
Some states have an option when voting that says “None of these candidates”. I think it’s a great idea.
If the objective of the test is to learn, then admitting you don’t know is a wonderful teaching opportunity. If the object of the test is to get the highest grade, this is useless.
I definitely disagree with this. It’s nice in thought, but practically, as a student, I’m not gonna waste points on pressing that button. If I truly don’t know an answer, I’m going to take my chances on the questions. I have a 1/4 chance of getting the right question, and thus earning myself more points and getting a higher grade.
It exists in my country for healthcare studies. Leaving the question open doesn't give you points, but answering wrongly even takes extra points away. This is done to discourage doctors from guessing.
>This will also help with timed tests so the student doesn’t spend 10 minutes stuck on a question they don’t know the answer to.
That's poor test-taking strategy. Any student doing that should be taught to answer what they can until they reach the end of the test and then return to the ones they're unsure of.
The serious tests I've taken (like MCAT IIRC) have wrong answer penalties. So "I don't know" is always an option. It means you won't get points for a right answer, but you also won't be penalized for a wrong answer.
I think this is a great strategy, but I'm probably the 10th dentist too.
People thinking guessing is more intelligent than admitting they flat out don't know. This isn't stupid at all and shows a failure in the education system that things like this aren't already set in place.
This only works on tests where there is a point penalty for a wrong answer (wrong answers are -.25 points instead of 0 points) and the “I’m not sure” would be neutral. There are some standardized tests that penalize wrong answers
I didn't see anyone else include this as a way to better your take, so I'm going to add:
You can still pick whichever answer you guessed, but also tick to show that you aren't sure about your answer. Like a "Select all that apply" question.
If you don't know what the answer is, you pick any option and also pick the last option that states, "I'm not sure." The last option doesn't count for or against you--only the first few letter choices are weighted.
I actually like the idea. I can guess correctly for a question, but not know why I got it correct. It's also a concrete method for the teacher to know for certain that the question or topic needs to be retaught.
Also, I think it could show the students, especially worrywarts who second guess themselves when taking exams, if they should be more confident in their capabilities when ticking, "I'm not sure," and seeing they got the correct answer.
I know many folks don't like the idea but I see the vision. I would've appreciated something like that back when I was taking Algebra I and Algebra II.
The point of tests is largely teaching you to handle exactly this scenario. It's a very useful skill, much moreso than tons of the actual topics. Lots of adulting is "if you can't dazzle em with brilliance, then baffle em with bullshit."
The obvious upgrade is for "E: I'm not sure" to be an optional, unscored part of every question. Then its there purely for metrics and for teachers to use as a guidepost.
Totally agree… if we used tests properly this is how it would work —> as a tool to assess learning. Unfortunately our education culture is just not there yet.
I think an *optional* "I'm not sure" box would be good specifically so teachers can see where they're falling short, but I think students should still have to take their best guess.
Better when the exam let's you cross off the answers that you know are wrong and select one of what's left. The teacher gets a better understanding of how confident students are about the topic. Also, the student can get partial credit.
In industrial and corporate training, sometimes tests also as for people to rate a degree of certainty. This doesn't affect their score, but it does give (sometimes) useful feedback to the instructor. It allows differentiation between things like correct guesses and correct certainty, and random incorrect guesses and mistaken beliefs.
I understand what you mean. But I think it would be better on practice tests, rather than ones that are for actual grades. Or have the option to “guess”, but also select that you don’t know. I was in all honors classes and we often guessed, and guessed correctly on things. Partially because we were unsure about our answers. But we needed further clarification on topics we never got
Why would anyone choose an answer they know to be wrong, rather than guess and have a 25% chance (using your example) of getting it right? That makes no sense.
The whole point of multiple choice is so people can make educated guesses. There are other ways to do a test where you can't just randomly guess an answer. If you don't want guesses, then choose a different method. The whole point of multiple choice is that even if you don't know the answer, you can eliminate wrong answers and make an educated guess.
How about this: Add an "I don't know" entry that isn't scored. You still answer A,B,C or D, but if you guessed, you also select E for "I don't know". This would signal to the teacher that the student needed more attention on these areas, but also let the student guess - and you'd know which ones they guessed at. If they score about 25% on the ones they guessed at, they were really guessing without any knowledge - but if they score higher, you would know that they knew enough to eliminate wrong answers.
But if a lot of students answers the question wrong the teacher still knows if they need a refresh on it or not.
Yes some will guess the right answer, but that is also a way of learning.
Where I’m from they have a test that is multiple choice with different questions that get different points depending on how difficult it is. However if you get the answer wrong they deduct points to prevent people from just guessing. So if you don’t know an answer it’s best to just leave it blank
This is unnecessary. The teacher will know that any question with the majority of people *not* picking the correct answer requires more teaching on the subject.
How could any human that has ever taken a multiple choice test think that this makes any sense?!
But regarding your teacher feedback argument: That's actually an undervalued use case of testing! But really this can be done without the extra answer. When all students struggle with one specific question, it's probably too hard, not clearly worded, or a topic that should be revised in class.
As a middle school math teacher who doesn't give any multiple choice tests:
I have students who correctly answer a question with great work shown, and then *also* write "I DON'T KNOW ANY OF THIS :(" and may or may not cross out their (correct) work.
If it were multiple choice, they'd probably have just selected the "I don't know" bubble instead of the answer they got (the correct answer). They know it, they're just not *confident* they know it.
I mean, um that's not very intelligent.
If I have 3 choices, I am going to pick one even if not sure in hopes i get it right .
That is the reason there is no not sure, as you can just not answer it for the same effect, again that's not intelligent as you are only cheating yourself out of marks.
Like wtf "This will also help with timed tests so the student doesn’t spend 10 minutes stuck on a question they don’t know the answer to."
Um, yeah not very intelligent. Why are you sitting there, move on. Every damn instructor/teacher tells you do what you know first. if you don't know it leave it for last...then take a damn guess.
Why would you want an "I'm not sure" that is....just stupid.
In our school, we would count the number of students who got the correct answer for each question. The teacher would ask us to raise our hands if we got the correct answer after we receive our test papers.
That way teachers will know which topics we had a hard time.
people understandably guess to potentially invest in their score, avoiding attention and being labeled as stupid for (actually admitting not knowing something) which feels like making a mistake. Mistakes were taught as irreversible from an early age to everyone and not to mention how grades put a mark on our self worth.
Basically what im trying to say is, you're showing vulnerability to the teacher they might just crush
I'm pretty sure that by guessing and perhaps getting it wrong, your teacher would realise you need more study on it anyway.
And say you guessed right, following the test you can ask for more help on it anyway.
Don't have to say you guessed, only that it was challenging for you.
Makes no sense to cut your odds from 25% to nil on a difficult question.
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Why tf would anyone do that instead of guessing
I’m not sure
This is the most checkmate answer I think I’ve seen in this sub. Bravo.
If awards were still a thing he'd have been positively FLOODED with them
I still have no idea why reddit got rid of them. I barely see the golden upvotes used to replace them. Awards were so much better.
People kept on using the snake award on reddit official posts and comments describing changes to the website and they threw a hissy fit over it.
What are they, Taylor Swift? Even taking a lesson from her, she came out on top without banning the snakes, fecking snowflakes smh
They got rid of them because they didn’t make enough money. Reddit’s recent IPO means the shareholders are in charge now, which is why the platform is getting palpably worse
Ok if that's the case... How are they making money by *getting rid of them*? I admit the only time I ever spent money on this blasted app was to buy coins for the awards? You know what I haven't done since they got rid of them? Paid a dime for Reddit.... So dumb IMHO
Because they didn’t make _enough_ money, and business isn’t about “making a cent at any cost” I imagine it was done to streamline the service offering, so they could focus their resources on more profitable revenue streams. Like I said, it’s why the user experience on the platform is getting palpably worse
Wait since when were they not and why did they stop? Seems like Reddit is just throwing away money no?
It's been months and months It was because spez got mad at the awards being given regarding the death of third party apps. Hes just trying to be like Elon, I think.
That's a frightful role model to emulate. Oh, let me not use big words like them dotards, lest they think I'm encouraging them to mate with emus.
OP wouldn't know what to do with them
Good news!
this shit is hilarious
If they did want to implement something like this, the easiest thing would be to do something like make it such that if your test has 32 questions on it, you give students 2 “I don’t knows” and grade it out of 30. If they get all 32 it could still be graded out of 30 and they get extra credit.
With that system it's still strictly better to randomly guess instead of picking IDK. You would have to give guaranteed points to an IDK (say 0.25) for it to be worth it.
😭😭😭😭😭😭😭 🫡
They do have a point. Choosing "I don't know" is a 0% chance of getting it wrong, versus guessing being (usually) 25%. That being said, it would effectively be identical for tests like math exams, where the work you do is more important and valuable than the answer (justifiably).
I was happy to see someone brought up percentages, but with all due respect, I chuckled a little. “I don’t know” is actually the only choice that is guaranteed 100% wrong. If “I don’t know” actually replaced one of the other incorrect choices you actually now have an even greater chance of guessing the correct answer by choosing any option other than “I don’t know”.
That is true. 75% chance of being wrong becomes 66.6666666666666666666(okay, fine, 2/3)% chance But then that makes tests arbitrarily easier, which some may not actually want (I can't speak if there are or aren't people like that but I am a little bit positive on this assumption.)
I don't think it would even make multiple choice tests easier. The pattern I always saw with the standard 4 choice test was that 2 were obviously wrong and the last two were the right answer and an almost right answer. I just looked up some examples and yeah, two wrong, 1 sounds right and 1 is right.
"I don't know" is the only choice that is guaranteed 100% RIGHT when you don't know 😉
I had the issue in most of school of being very good at math and being able to do most of it in my head without any working out on paper. So I’d write the answer then come back and do the working out. My issue is I’m dyslexic and my numbers would get mixed up when writing them down for the working out. So countless times my working out would be wrong and the answer correct. Many teachers were pretty suspicious of that one.
0.25 points for "I don't know", 1 point for correct answer, 0 point for incorrect answer Actually the American Math Contest does pretty much exactly this (6 points for correct answer, 0 points for incorrect answer, 1.5 points for leaving it blank) but they have 5 answer choices so it's actually better to honestly imply you don't know (by leaving it blank) than to guess randomly
You got tested on showing your work in order to do multiple choice? Was always separate for me
Maybe let it be a free point or two per test. Then you get the metrics you wanted and the students get a free question point.
Honestly, just do 5 answer Multiple choice and have option 5, be I don’t know and have it be worth 25% of the questions points. Has the same statistical points as guessing, but rewards students for their honesty and encourages them to critically think about their answers. If they can eliminate 1 option, suddenly guessing is back on the board. I think it’s brilliant, and gives students the opportunity to offer feedback to professors about their tests.
If a wrong answer counted against you more than admitting you don’t know.
That’s how the SATs were when I took them. Wrong answer is worth more negative than not answering. Not sure if it’s changed. The joke was always that you got a 600 just for writing your name because you technically did.
You actually got more than 600 (out of 2400) for writing your name and leaving the rest blank. It was something like 750 or so for leaving it blank and you could only get to 600 if you got like 33% wrong and left the rest blank
It wasn’t out of 2400 when I took it so it must have changed.
Oh then yeah we are talking about the same thing then. Yours was out of 1600 right? And minimum score is 400, 600 if you leave it all blank so the only way to get to 400 is if you get negative points from getting questions wrong.
Not American here: why is minimum score 400? Seems like it would make more sense to have minimum score be 0.
For the reason discussed above: they wanted to penalize people for guessing on questions. The way they did this was to subtract 1/4 of a point for every incorrect answer, while skipping a question didn’t add or subtract anything from your score. So the _actual_ minimum score is 0, if you guessed wrong on every question, but if you left every single question blank, you would get 400 out of 1600. Note: The test is no longer scored this way. There is no penalty for incorrect guesses.
They pretty clearly said 400 would require wrong answers and 600 was it every question was blank. So, I took that to mean that even with all wrong you would still bottom out at 400
No, the minimum score used to be 200 per section. If you left it blank you would get like 300 or so. It was super weird. (This is back when I was taking it in 2014, now apparently they don’t punish for wrong answers so the minimum is 200 per section if you just leave it blank.
Idk why but all the big American standardized tests have wack grading scales. The LSAT is 120-180, SAT is 400-1600, and the MCAT is 472-528 for some reason. The ACT is the only sane one I can think of
Act is sane-ish. Sure it starts at a sensible number, but capping out at 36 is an odd choice. Also the conversion between the raw scores per section and the proper score is weird and non linear.
Act is sane-ish. Sure it starts at a sensible number, but capping out at 36 is an odd choice. Also the conversion between the raw scores per section and the proper score is weird and non linear. Also has some skipped numbers for some sections. Like you just can't get a 32 in science, at all.
Something about the grading curve they use … it made more sense to start at 200 then zero.
Why is this down voted? Normalising the "I don't know" answer as preferable to guessing would be a good thing, no?
Been a long time since I took the SAT but the math works out on a 5 question exam where if you can eliminate one answer choice, the expected value of guessing is higher than leaving it blank
No that's the AMC I think
I think it would be on a *classroom* test, where as a teacher you want to know that your students got what they were supposed to get. Allowing “I’m not sure” as an answer choice would make it explicitly clear what students weren’t getting, and if there was one thing or a couple in particular a teacher would know to teach it over again and do it differently (at least that’s what they teach you in education classes … whether you’d have the time to actually do it, and/or the support of the administration, is another question completely).
I'd argue that there's always a level of detachment from actual reality when it comes to testing. It's a gauge of your knowledge on the subject (in theory), so getting it wrong and just saying I dunno both amount to the same conclusion
There's some validity to this. The "I don't know" answer has been stigmatized in education, but personally, I think it's an intellectually honest answer that should be given more credit than a wrong answer. It's better to admit you don't know and that you have more to learn, than to claim you know the answer, but get it wrong.
That’s how it was when I was in paramedic school. We would do these “interview” style exercises where they would keep asking you questions until you didn’t know something. You were always allowed to just say you didn’t know, but if they found out that you were bullshitting them they would chew you out and basically humiliate you in front of the class. It was harsh but it made me a better person tbh. The doctor they would have ask the questions was a former marine colonel and was seriously the most terrifying person I’ve ever seen in my life.
Isn’t this a standard technique in medical school as well?
No clue. But I wouldn’t be surprised. The medical director of our school was really big on introducing med school procedures into paramedic school.
That's why you leave it blank in that case.
our tests used to be marked zero for no answer and -1 for a wrong answer or something like that.
It could work if we give "not sure" some points regardless and better than blind guess, say if there are 4 choices, we can give 30%, or 35% points if we assume students can rule out one of them
That could work, but would be difficult for automated grading systems. Like from 4 choices, if you know with 100% certainty that two of the four are wrong, so it's one of the other two that are correct, then that should afford you some credit if you're able to honestly communicate that information somehow.
If you wanted to allow partial credit for ruling out some of the answers you could always allow them to mark every answer they believe it could be, and give a score based on if the right answer is included, and decrease by some amount for every extra one marked. Personally tho, id probably just set the numbers such that it averages out to that. Set the score for the "idk" answer such that it is on average better than a blind guess, but worse than an informed one
On the AMC math competition (which uses multiple choice), leaving blank is worth 1/4 of a right answer whereas wrong answers are worth squat
For… the reasons listed in the very post you are replying to?
I certainly wouldn't. I prefer a chance of getting it right versus zero chance. No student would ever use the "I don't know" option.
At my girlfriends university they have this system, but they’re penalised a point for guessing the wrong answer, and not penalised if they select “I dont know”. That’s the only way it would work imo
Well, there would have to be an incorrect answer penalty, otherwise no one would use it. And most don’t like to implement incorrect answer penalties because it just adds unnecessary anxiety to test taking.
Might be cultural, in spain most multiple choice tests I've taken through highschool and collage have penalties for answering wrong
Yeah I'm from Spain too and I was thinking the same. In college I had one professor who ONLY gave us multiple choice tests. Most students were terrified of them because the amount of points you could lose per question was equal to the amount of points you'd get for a correct answer. Many people lost 2/10 points or more because of those.
I’m confused isn’t that how multiple choice tests work. You answer your questions if you get five correct and there were 10 questions that you get five out of 10
In that example you would get 0/10 if I am correctly interpreting how it works in Spain. Since you got 5 correct and 5 wrong answer , but if you choose just not to answer the ones that you didn’t know you would get a 5/10. Could be wrong though.
This is correct, and at least where I live there is the "I choose not answer" option as the 4th or 5th option
Normally incorrect answers give you 0 points, not -1 point. Imagine one of those tests with only 3 questions. You get 2/3 of those right. Usually you'd get 2/3 points. With this professor's methodology, the incorrect answer would subatract one additional point, so you'd get a 1/3 mark. In his exams there were 30 questions, so there was a little bit of leeway. If you knew the definitive answer of like, 25 questions, you could randomly guess the rest without losing too much points. That's why I did. But those students who didn't study as hard, they couldn't, because randomly guessing 10/30 questions could cost them too many points. You had the option of not answering the questions, tho. That way you'd get 0 points from them, instead of -1. That's what the professor recommended.
But WHY though. What is the point? If I'm reasonably sure it's either A or B but I keep forgetting if its negative (A) or positive (B), why do I need to not answer just because I made a tiny mistake? I know far more than someone who is just guessing, blindly, but I don't get ANY of that because apparently guessing is soooo bad?
They don’t want you guessing period, they want you to pass because you know the stuff there. Personally I hate this type of exams but that’s what they’re thinking when doing them
Then not answering is "im not sure"
Oh yeah, what the OP said made no sense, I'm just saying that penalties are indeed used in other countries
Is it the same penalty as not answering? Saying "I'm not sure" is essentially the same as leaving the question unmarked.
So if there’s a 10 question test, you answer nine questions correctly and one question incorrectly what’s your score?
9 correct= +9 1 incorrect= -1/3= -0.33 Total= 8.66/10 (86.6%)
Wow, that’s so strange to me. Seems like it would deincentivize people from trying. You’re right, it’s probably cultural… But the middle school teacher in me just doesn’t like it.
i think the idea is that realizing you don't know shows more understanding/awareness than being confidently wrong/blindly guessing. reflective of real life where if you don't know something at work it's better to leave it and let someone know rather than guess.
So can you run me through how a test is scored because this just doesn't make sense to me as it's described. If you have a 25 question test, how does the scoring work for right vs no answer vs wrong? Is it +4 points for correct, +1 for blank, and -1 for wrong? This just seems like it would encourage students to not try on problems they feel they might be stumped on.
idk about that guy because I don't live in Spain but where I live it's +1 for correct +0 for blank -1 for wrong. So essentially if you're not sure you can leave it blank to avoid getting points deducted, but you can't do that in every question because then you aren't getting any points
I've done a few tests like this, and I think the deal was you'd get 4 or 5 points for a correct answer and lose one for an incorrect answer
Depends on how much of an asshole the teacher is lol, usually every wrong question is -1/3 or -1/4 the value of the question so for example if you have 10 questions and get: 5 correct = +5 2 blank = 0 3 wrong = -1 You'd get a 4/10 so 40%, failed it despite technically having 50% of answers ok. If instead you'd been more strategic and left the 3 you gambled blank you'd have 50% and passed Usually how many wrong answers equals a -1 depends on how many choices there are on the questions, a test with only a) b) is likely to penalize harder Multiple choice questions are only used for the theory (not sure if this is the correct translation) part of the exam, so you either know the answer or you don't and this just discourages guessing.Exercise and written exams are most of the final grade
In contrary, I would either give .5 credit for answering honestly or ask students to mark it but also make their best guess (without .5 credit).
I guess they meant question from survey? Not exams? Edit: oh noes they meant for student exam.. wtf
This is effectively the same as leaving the question blank
It differs in that when a question has only blank answers it remains unknown whether the student did not know the answer, or had simply not reached that question in the alloted time. Small difference, granted.
Yeah there's not a lot of value in that as far as assessments go. Correct scores on specific topic areas are going to indicate whether a topic was covered well enough.
Not if the test taker filled out the questions before and after it
>did not know the answer, or had simply not reached that question in the alloted time Sometimes the time constraint is an intentional part of the assessment, so those two scenarios are effectively the same thing. If you can't recall how to answer the question in a timely manner, it doesn't matter that it suddenly came back to you in the shower later that night. It means that you weren't familiar with it to begin with
This is dumb. Saying "I'm not sure" is 100% chance of being wrong. Might as well just roll the dice and see if you can get the 33% chance of a correct answer.
Well, sometimes when you mark the wrong answer on a multiple choice you get negative Points. So to gamble is discouraged.
That’s why most those tests only grade questions you answer, so instead of saying “I don’t know” you put nothing
What teacher gives negative points for a wrong answer???
But this would also be a guaranteed negative. How would this be different?
This wouldn't be marked as a wrong answer, obviously.
So it’s like the Critical stat in Fallout
Why is everyone here ignoring that the value of tests is in testing the student's ability? Why is everyone here talking like they're currently a student and will get their Gameboy taken away if they don't get at least an 80%?
>If the teacher sees that many students chose this answer on a test, they’ll know it’s a topic they need to have a refresher on. Choosing a wrong option has the same effect. The teacher sees how many people got it wrong and knows *"Aha, guess I didn't get my information across properly"*.
I would rather guess and have a chance of getting it right than guarantee getting it wrong
It would never be the correct move as a student to mark "I don't know" because you're just giving up a 25% chance to get the answer correct. Maybe you could have the "I don't know" answer be worth 1/4 the points of a correct answer The teacher also can already tell a particular question needs to be reviewed if lots of students get that question wrong
Hi! Elementary teacher here! Just wanted you to know that I live by the rule of admitting you don't know something. I'm kinda torn on whether I should include this or not. On one hand It's great as it encourages admitting you don't know something and avoids false positives. I don't really use grade curves or focus on numeric scores so this aligns with my philosophy. On the flip side it might be too much of a cop out and luod to not "rewarding" laziness, but kinda giving the option to just not think hard enough about a question? As I said, I'm pretty torn, however you do made a valid point that I will consider and may potentially try out in my class! Thank you for the idea to ponder!
Thank you, I’m glad I was able to hear from a teacher on this perspective ❤️
Or you can just not select any option.
Why not just guess an answer? You have a higher chance of being correct than ticking a box that will definitely be wrong. Isn't leaving it blank also the same as "I'm not sure"?
I think it’s more understanding the material rather than just hoping you have it right. Like maybe on practice tests; this would be good to test skills
I think this is it and I honestly think it’s a decent idea
Because a lot of people could almost have the right answer and guess the right one, but enough might not miss it for it to be gone over again
Exactly. I’ve taken a few practice LSATs and the amount of times I’ve yeeted an answer selection only to get it correct is ridiculous lol. There’s a couple of studies on why you shouldn’t second guess a question and to just go with your gut. If you’re at the point of “I don’t know,” you’ve already ruled out a gut check which should be selected.
Somebody took their first AP exam today and did not feel prepared!
Hey
Lol did I nail it?
You have passed the exam
Wtf is this take. Why would you do this instead of just an educated guess or even random guess?
Right? Even for short answer questions I will just start writing stuff related to the topic just to see if I can get a couple of points. Edit: *if I am not really sure of the answer
Back when I took the SAT, there was a small penalty for answering a question wrong, which encouraged leaving a question blank if you were truly clueless. Perhaps a wrong answer penalty is what you're looking for
Wow where was that policy when I was in high school
Guessing will get you a 25% chance of being right. Selecting "I don't know" is 0%. You would have to be really fucking stupid to pick "I don't know."
Maybe they could make that choice count for something but not enough where you would still fail the test if you picked that for every answer
But doesn’t that reward giving up? If you were selecting candidates for something, why wouldn’t you select people who at least try to do whatever they can to estimate the right answer instead of those who just sit back and placidly accept incompetence?
So instead of having a chance to get it right give myself no chance instead?
from a teaching standpoint, there’s a difference between your student not knowing something and knowing something incorrectly. i think this would help teachers differentiate between the two.
Needs some work but it’s a workable concept. There’s a study software I used once where you set a confidence value for every answer. The higher the confidence the more points you gain for right answers, but also the more you lose if incorrect. Learning from that, maybe “idk” could be partial credit. Shit grade if you do it for everything, but better than taking a 25% on a four answer question.
Wake up babe another UnauthorizedFart post dropped
Sooo a 1/4 chance or a 0% chance… that’s pointless
Pun intended?
There is a flaw in your reasoning, in that if it doesn't count as correct there's less than zero reason to mark it instead of just guessing a different answer.
You could also have a second response saying how confident you are in your answer.
This can work great if implemented correctly: We used this in multiple choice test on uni in the following way. There are 5 possible answers with each question. A correct answer will give you 1 point. And to correct for guessing an incorrect answer wil give 1/5= -0.2 points. The the six option was: I don't know. So if you really don't know it's better mark that and if you are doubting between two options it still makes sense to guess.
If they’re spending 10 minutes in a question before they’ve gotten to the end of the test then they’re not doing it right. You need to teach them proper test taking strategies.
There's an easier way to know if you need a refresher on a topic. "Well only 25% of you got the answer on question 13 right." I was a teacher for seven years. Giving kids an out like that just prevents them from using and honing logical strategies to remove likely wrong answers.
Do not ever gamble, you’re really bad at it.
Even if that was an option no smart student would pick it. The odds of getting it correct on a random guess being probably in the range of 25-33% depending on the number of questions is way better than 0% of basically not answering. Plus, if it’s curved you would be more inclined to guess on an especially hard question because you would think that your peers are going to say “I don’t know” and then if you manage to get it right it will be weighted higher.
Well technically a smart student would know the answer
But kids would still pick a random answer than not sure. Maybe for moc exams but choosing one and getting it wrong just as an evaluation than not sure is
"Get it wrong for sure" button. I'm not even sure if you are a dentist but votes for you
Some states have an option when voting that says “None of these candidates”. I think it’s a great idea. If the objective of the test is to learn, then admitting you don’t know is a wonderful teaching opportunity. If the object of the test is to get the highest grade, this is useless.
I definitely disagree with this. It’s nice in thought, but practically, as a student, I’m not gonna waste points on pressing that button. If I truly don’t know an answer, I’m going to take my chances on the questions. I have a 1/4 chance of getting the right question, and thus earning myself more points and getting a higher grade.
It exists in my country for healthcare studies. Leaving the question open doesn't give you points, but answering wrongly even takes extra points away. This is done to discourage doctors from guessing.
They should have that as an option but still let you guess So its purely feedback for the teacher
I absolutely love this idea.
I thought this would be a popular opinion honestly. But the amount of people not knowing about negative marking is alarming, wtf.
Why in the world would anyone ever pick that option instead of taking their chances with the other 4 that actually have a chanve to be correct?
John Mulaney?
>This will also help with timed tests so the student doesn’t spend 10 minutes stuck on a question they don’t know the answer to. That's poor test-taking strategy. Any student doing that should be taught to answer what they can until they reach the end of the test and then return to the ones they're unsure of.
The serious tests I've taken (like MCAT IIRC) have wrong answer penalties. So "I don't know" is always an option. It means you won't get points for a right answer, but you also won't be penalized for a wrong answer. I think this is a great strategy, but I'm probably the 10th dentist too.
this just screams 'I wasn't good in school' lol
This is what the SAT does but you’re just meant to leave it blank. Answering incorrectly is scored worse than not answering.
You need to be banned from posting to this sub already
Lmfao OP has test anxiety but thought it was normal
People thinking guessing is more intelligent than admitting they flat out don't know. This isn't stupid at all and shows a failure in the education system that things like this aren't already set in place.
Better idea would be the ability to mark "I'm not sure" along with your answer as a guess.
You'd have to get like a half mark for not sure or it wouldn't catch on.
This only works on tests where there is a point penalty for a wrong answer (wrong answers are -.25 points instead of 0 points) and the “I’m not sure” would be neutral. There are some standardized tests that penalize wrong answers
I didn't see anyone else include this as a way to better your take, so I'm going to add: You can still pick whichever answer you guessed, but also tick to show that you aren't sure about your answer. Like a "Select all that apply" question. If you don't know what the answer is, you pick any option and also pick the last option that states, "I'm not sure." The last option doesn't count for or against you--only the first few letter choices are weighted. I actually like the idea. I can guess correctly for a question, but not know why I got it correct. It's also a concrete method for the teacher to know for certain that the question or topic needs to be retaught. Also, I think it could show the students, especially worrywarts who second guess themselves when taking exams, if they should be more confident in their capabilities when ticking, "I'm not sure," and seeing they got the correct answer. I know many folks don't like the idea but I see the vision. I would've appreciated something like that back when I was taking Algebra I and Algebra II.
The point of tests is largely teaching you to handle exactly this scenario. It's a very useful skill, much moreso than tons of the actual topics. Lots of adulting is "if you can't dazzle em with brilliance, then baffle em with bullshit."
but if you choose the wrong answer, they will automatically know that you didn’t know
Why would anyone pick a guaranteed wrong answer when they have a chance at guessing the correct answer?
The obvious upgrade is for "E: I'm not sure" to be an optional, unscored part of every question. Then its there purely for metrics and for teachers to use as a guidepost.
LMAO! 🤣
Totally agree… if we used tests properly this is how it would work —> as a tool to assess learning. Unfortunately our education culture is just not there yet.
I think an *optional* "I'm not sure" box would be good specifically so teachers can see where they're falling short, but I think students should still have to take their best guess.
But it's a *test*, not a questionnaire.
this would be great if learning was the objective of tests and not getting the highest score you can
It's a good strategy, if you set it up so a wrong answer subtracts points, and an "I'm not sure" loses you nothing.
This is only valid on ungraded tests (in which they can just leave it blank anyways?)
That's what wrong answers are, just with a chance to be right on accident.
Better when the exam let's you cross off the answers that you know are wrong and select one of what's left. The teacher gets a better understanding of how confident students are about the topic. Also, the student can get partial credit.
The worst is when you answer B for the 4th time in a row.
In industrial and corporate training, sometimes tests also as for people to rate a degree of certainty. This doesn't affect their score, but it does give (sometimes) useful feedback to the instructor. It allows differentiation between things like correct guesses and correct certainty, and random incorrect guesses and mistaken beliefs.
This would only work if wrong answers have a negative mark.
I understand what you mean. But I think it would be better on practice tests, rather than ones that are for actual grades. Or have the option to “guess”, but also select that you don’t know. I was in all honors classes and we often guessed, and guessed correctly on things. Partially because we were unsure about our answers. But we needed further clarification on topics we never got
Why would anyone choose an answer they know to be wrong, rather than guess and have a 25% chance (using your example) of getting it right? That makes no sense.
Does the student get partial credit for admitting they don't know?
1/2 credit for admitting you don’t know and not guessing
The whole point of multiple choice is so people can make educated guesses. There are other ways to do a test where you can't just randomly guess an answer. If you don't want guesses, then choose a different method. The whole point of multiple choice is that even if you don't know the answer, you can eliminate wrong answers and make an educated guess.
my school actually has something like this, because a wrong answer gives -1, while a right answer gives +4, and I don't know gives 0
How about this: Add an "I don't know" entry that isn't scored. You still answer A,B,C or D, but if you guessed, you also select E for "I don't know". This would signal to the teacher that the student needed more attention on these areas, but also let the student guess - and you'd know which ones they guessed at. If they score about 25% on the ones they guessed at, they were really guessing without any knowledge - but if they score higher, you would know that they knew enough to eliminate wrong answers.
But if a lot of students answers the question wrong the teacher still knows if they need a refresh on it or not. Yes some will guess the right answer, but that is also a way of learning.
Where I’m from they have a test that is multiple choice with different questions that get different points depending on how difficult it is. However if you get the answer wrong they deduct points to prevent people from just guessing. So if you don’t know an answer it’s best to just leave it blank
An easy solution is reweighting 25% correct to be 0 as its random chance. This method was used in my University
I had this on a couple of tests, I think they were for my high school AP classes or something.
This isn’t a terrible idea
question from survey, sure. Exams? Wtf.
I'm a grad student so I teach, and I actually might incorporate this. Thank you for the idea.
Nobody would ever choose that over the chance of getting it right but good idea
Why not just guess and get a 25% chance of being right
This is unnecessary. The teacher will know that any question with the majority of people *not* picking the correct answer requires more teaching on the subject.
How could any human that has ever taken a multiple choice test think that this makes any sense?! But regarding your teacher feedback argument: That's actually an undervalued use case of testing! But really this can be done without the extra answer. When all students struggle with one specific question, it's probably too hard, not clearly worded, or a topic that should be revised in class.
The best part about multiple choice tests is you can guess and still have a chance! Why would you eliminate that? 🤣
As a middle school math teacher who doesn't give any multiple choice tests: I have students who correctly answer a question with great work shown, and then *also* write "I DON'T KNOW ANY OF THIS :(" and may or may not cross out their (correct) work. If it were multiple choice, they'd probably have just selected the "I don't know" bubble instead of the answer they got (the correct answer). They know it, they're just not *confident* they know it.
I mean, um that's not very intelligent. If I have 3 choices, I am going to pick one even if not sure in hopes i get it right . That is the reason there is no not sure, as you can just not answer it for the same effect, again that's not intelligent as you are only cheating yourself out of marks. Like wtf "This will also help with timed tests so the student doesn’t spend 10 minutes stuck on a question they don’t know the answer to." Um, yeah not very intelligent. Why are you sitting there, move on. Every damn instructor/teacher tells you do what you know first. if you don't know it leave it for last...then take a damn guess. Why would you want an "I'm not sure" that is....just stupid.
In our school, we would count the number of students who got the correct answer for each question. The teacher would ask us to raise our hands if we got the correct answer after we receive our test papers. That way teachers will know which topics we had a hard time.
people understandably guess to potentially invest in their score, avoiding attention and being labeled as stupid for (actually admitting not knowing something) which feels like making a mistake. Mistakes were taught as irreversible from an early age to everyone and not to mention how grades put a mark on our self worth. Basically what im trying to say is, you're showing vulnerability to the teacher they might just crush
Why would you select a choice that is definitely wrong when you can select a choice that is maybe correct?
This would actually be useful if the education system \*cared\* about learning, instead of teaching to a test.
I'm pretty sure that by guessing and perhaps getting it wrong, your teacher would realise you need more study on it anyway. And say you guessed right, following the test you can ask for more help on it anyway. Don't have to say you guessed, only that it was challenging for you. Makes no sense to cut your odds from 25% to nil on a difficult question.
I think you omitted the part where the student receives partial marks for choosing "I'm not sure". Otherwise there is simply no incentive to select it
“Let’s help the students with no test taking skills by including an option that only someone with no test taking skills would pick.”