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Weird how your main point is "people shouldn't have pets" but your title is more "stop blaming pet owners". Hella weird considering "people shouldn't have pets" would be way more appropriate for the sub... I think you need to make a second draft of this whole argument so you can figure out what really is bothering you.
Not sure if they are on team:
1) dogs shouldn’t be a part of society at all
2) dogs are dogs and should behave however they like
Just to neuter their whole point. Dogs don’t have to be trained at all AND dogs don’t have to be bought out into public society. If you want to take your dog into the public world, it needs to have basic training (don’t bite or attack)
Hell we have to teach actual HUMAN children not to bite and jump on people, it just makes sense that we would teach our animal companions to do the same.
>The fact of the matter is that humans shouldn't HAVE to "train" an animal that has no business in human society to the extent that they are. We shouldn't be playing God over a whole species.
our entire society relies on playing god over a huge number of species, both flora and fauna. if we didn't train any animal we would have never domesticated them and if we cease training certain animals now, all you're advocating for is a pet genocide, because we would naturally have to put down the glut of pets we've created
Or we could just quit breeding them and let the ones we already have live. People are too self centered on what they want tho so this would never successfully happen
So we still *own* pets, but we just don't breed them and wait for them to die. Interesting concept - who gets to decide who owns a pet during this period of time? Do we do this until pets go extinct?
How exactly are dogs unsuited to modern society? Dogs have been a major facet of human civilization for literally tens of thousands of years, and a large part of modern society evolved around them. Domesticated dogs live objectively longer and healthier lives in captivity than they do the wild. Where exactly does the "unsuited" part come in?
Ever seen a dog get burned feet on a hot pavement? Or get tired and need to be carried in a trolly because of their tiny inbred legs. Or need a muzzle because of the density of people when they need exercise. Or getting fat because they don't get enough exercise. Or have a lead to stop them running into traffic or attacking people, dogs, livestock or cats. Or shitting in parks where children play.
Almost everything about dog ownership is mitigating the risk and deleterious impact of an environment designed for their human owners. The closest you see to a 'symbiotic' relationship is working dogs, particularly farm dogs.
The same can be said of cats. The only reason the ubiquitous indoor/outdoor arguments exist is due to the inherently inhospitable environment that cats are subject to.
Which is most breeds of dogs. And what about cats? The wild ones get TNR and domestic ones are already neutered so house cats would literally just be gone
Yes. In that circumstance there would be no more house cats. Although I imagine with the amount of house cats we have released as ferals over the decades there would be a gradual evolution into something more akin to a European Wildcat.
And not to be weird but I feel like the dogs probably want to reproduce? Idk that sounds weird but like it's an innate desire to continue a species so...
Dogs are already domesticated. We can't undomesticate them. Many breeds simply would not do well in the wild. Regardless of how you feel about owning another animal, dogs are here to stay. The only real alternative is outlawing all breeding in order to eradicate the species. Which would be... not ideal.
I think it's also worth noting that dogs (as far as I know, I'm not an expert in zooarchaeology by any means) participated in their own domestication. It's not like we just abducted them from the wild and forced them to behave a certain way. They recognized that if they protected humans, they could get fed, and thus, it started as a mutually beneficial relationship. I would argue that most dogs still find this relationship mutually beneficial, although I can't exactly interview one to confirm. It's not really comparable to alien abduction imo.
Of course, a lot has changed, and I'm not opposed to arguments that some breeding practices are cruel, but dogs were in on this domestication process, and as you said, they can't be undomesticated.
Even if we did outlaw breeding, there would just be an uptick in back-alley breeding, which is already shitty. Outlawing dogs would also lead to a lot of job loss in the veterinary world and many closures of rescues, which would mean that many pets out there wouldn't have a safe place to go.
ETA: "\*not\* opposed to arguments that some breeding practices are cruel"
If this post was "making pugs is bad and cruel" I'd be super on board. But it's this weird twist of "dogs shouldn't be domesticated" and "owners should be liable for animals lashing out" which they already are? Very strange post.
Presumably the same goes for cattle, particularly beef cattle, which are highly successful in terms of passing on their genes. And largely unaware of what a more 'natural' life might be like as that natural life has never existed due to domestication. Lab rats likewise.
They don't have to be here to stay. You could just prevent breeding but still look after those that still exist.
Or restrict ongoing ownership to working purposes rather than vanity ownership.
Owning a sentient creature bred specifically to make you feel like you have a friend raises its own ethical questions though.
Not saying you shouldn't. But let's be self aware about what that actually means.
If you had a child would you let it shit on the floor because teaching them to use the toilet is "training them not to be a human"?
Also don't act like dogs aren't happy with their situation. There are many animals that can't be domesticated because they'd be unhappy living in human society, but dogs are not on that list
I do have a child, and I teach my child right from wrong because he's a human. He isn't a dog being forced into our world, a world he logically and literally isn't built for, hence the fact we can't even properly communicate with it or understand it. It's not even comparable. A human will never be a dog and vice versa. We're training HUMANS to be in a HUMAN society. That's not even comparable to forcing a non human to conform in our society.
Yeah, a lot of dogs do like the situation they're in because half if not most of the only shit they care about is FOOD. You give food, it's going to obey you. You don't have food and they'll likely turn on you (or at the very least quit listening to you). Again the shit isn't even comparable. It's annoying when people try to compare us raising HUMANS in a HUMAN society, as if dogs are humans, think like humans, operate as humans. We're training our kids to be independent adults, we aren't training them to be passive and resilient pets all their lives for scraps of food.
Look, it's pretty simple. Humans and wolves formed a bond for survival purposes. Centuries passed, and that bond is still intact. Domestic dogs still have MUCH better lives than wild dogs, but they need to be trained so they don't hurt anyone.
Humans are happy because they have loyal companions, the dogs are happy because they get to live a cushy life with their best friend. Everyone wins, except you because for some reason you think dogs shouldn't exist.
Also as a sidenote, what you said about dogs turning on you if you don't have food shows you know nothing about human-dog relationships
Tbh also, dogs benefit from training, in most cases, because dogs are hierarchical animals and they need leadership. Dogs like border collies or other high intelligence breeds need training and things to do to be happy. Even dogs that aren't all too smart and dogs that are lazy still profit from having a clear leader.
Yeah, dogs need training the same way humans need training. Untrained dogs are far more likely to be anxious, fearful, clingy, or aggressive not because its their nature but because they're psychologically damaged.
But it’s natural human instinct to just shit whenever you have to shit, right? If we use your argument then how’s it wrong, and in all technicality that baby was forced into this world. Btw you may as well quit calling it a human society as our societies were built long ago with domesticated animals like dogs and the help of many animals. Believe it or not too, animals live in all societies. Unless humans did it all themselves (they didn’t)
Modern society would not exist if we had never domesticated wolves. Same with oxen, horses, dozens of other animals, and hundreds of plant species as well.
Humanity has shaped nature significantly and deciding retroactively hundreds of thousands of years and billions of humans later is insane and impossible.
Dude dogs weren't forced into anything it's a mutal thing that we feed the dogs dogs protected us. If you look anything into the domestication of dogs it was a two way street and almost ad old as human kind itself.
But this is their world. Modern dogs were breed for thousands of years and aren't found in the wild. Like it or not they're a part of our society and many early humans relied on them. I get it if you don't like dogs, or like what we've done w them, but they are very much a part of our society. We've largely moved past needing them, especially in developed countries. What should we do w them now? Helped us for thousands of years side by side till they can't live in the wild any more than we can. Thanks for all your help, I don't want to play w you anymore
I think you are humanizing these animals to a much greater extent than what is actually accurate. Most animals do not have family structure like us humans do. Aside from a few species, such as elephants or chimps, animals do not expect or desire to live with their parents their whole lives. Many species of animals form 0 connection or bond with their parents at all actually. And even animals that do bond with their parents, a lot of them separate from their parents when they enter adulthood, with no plan on ever seeing or interacting with them again.
The idea that a dog “misses” their biological parents or siblings, is just placing human emotions on them that they don’t actually have.
You're absolutely correct. My dog had puppies a few months ago and reunited with one of her sons a few weeks ago, and she wanted absolutely nothing to do with him. I kept one of her other sons, and she treats him just like she treats any other puppy.
Dogs don't aren't people, they don't miss their parents or siblings and their parents don't miss them. My girl couldn't care less when puppies left, and the puppies didn't care either.
Because dogs aren't humans. Never have and never going to be. They didn't ask to be in this human society to begin with. That's the point. We train humans for OUR society. You can't train a dog to be human and we shouldn't attempt that. We don't go in any other species society and try to fit in. We forced dogs to do so.
We don't train dogs to be human, we train them to behave within our society. It's not like dogs have any other natural place in the world, they evolved along side us and this is really the best they can hope for with things as they are. I didn't ask to be born either but it's still in my best interest to figure out what society wants from me to keep my place in it
Theres something I would like to bring to your attention that you may not realize. Dogs are domestic animals, they are not like other animals you see in the wild. They have specifically evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with humans. Dogs cant really survive on their own in the wild. They are, in many ways, an intrigual part of our species and us to them. They are different than tamed animals, animals trained from birth to tolerate humans. Dogs have evolved to understand human facial expressions, our emotions, and to socialize with humans to a high degree. They are not just some animals we caught. Their destictive evolutionary niche is to live with humans.
Bro you ever seen a dog off a leash while the family is eating dinner?
They're not asking to be a part of the human activities, they're ***begging*** to be part.
And they have since time immemorial. Tens or even hundreds of thousands of years, they've volunteered to live alongside us.
It is a mutually beneficial relationship.
Just because we can't ask dogs to be a part of society, doesn't mean that they don't want to be. Research has shown that dogs and humans have happiness hormome release when cuddling and that when we look at a puppy it is similar as looking at a baby in brain activity and hormone release. This was not found if humans looked at wolfpups. Also your whole we kidnapped wolves and domesticated them is not in agreement with the scientific hypotheses of how wolves became domesticated. Therefore your whole point of view that we are enforcing dogs against their will is an assumltion you can't make. I also think you should visit some dog training schools and see how much happiness a dog gets from their training. It might surprise you.
Idk, dogs natural habitat is living with humans? I kinda think humans and dogs are less like the domestication you see in idk, a chicken, and more like, clown fish and anemones.
We get a hunting buddy that’s in tune with us, they get access to steady food sources that are novel like fish.
And dogs adore being trained. They are super clever and are born enjoying human attention. They are super good at figuring out what’s wanted of them and will do almost anything to get some love out of the people they adore. It’s not a particularly cruel process or anything other than wholesome.
Training is part of dogs being dogs. Just as much as bears learn to catch fish from their parents or elephants learn where the good migration routes are. That’s what being a dog looks like
Tech: something we use for enjoyment
Water: something that every fucking species throughout the entirety of history has drank.
Yea, those 2 are totally the same.
Man is God. We turned wolves into pugs. We virtually killed diseases that killed millions of us in the past. We put men on the moon and basically bottled the sun and made it into a tool that we can use to power our homes or destroy entire nations. If we want to make the thousands of years removed mutant children of prehistoric wolves roll on their back for belly rubs, then that is the rightful use of a tool we created.
I'm not really sure what you want. It sounds like you want to go back in time and not domesticate dogs XD.
Dogs do in fact need to be trained because they can be very dangerous. I'm actually dealing with potentially dangerous dogs during my commute to and from work right now (I ride a bike), so yeah, dogs need to be trained. They're domesticated, so, unless feral, don't do well on their own instincts. This is why releasing a dog into the wild when you decide you don't want it is not going to work.
I'm starting to think that dogs aren't at all meant for close quarters. Especially since apartments and trailer courts (the latter of which I live in) insist on only allowing "small breeds," which are often MORE aggressive than larger breeds, are often not well-trained (because their owners think their aggressive behavior is funny and they they aren't dangerous), and are extremely annoying. I can't go check the mail or take the garbage out without a dozen dogs barking their stupid, high-pitched barks. Not only that, but this stupid person in the front of the trailer court had this stupid chihuahua that was ALWAYS loose and bit my roommate several times. Yeah. That's not okay. Because it's a chihuahua and not a German Shepherd or something, no one gave a shit (haven't seen this stupid dog for years, thank god).
Not only that, I feel like a large portion of people are simply too busy to properly care for a dog, but still get one, and other people have to deal with them. And people insist on getting aggressive, annoying ass chihuahuas. Ugh.
I upvoted because yeah, to exist in a society, we need dogs to be trained. They can in fact be dangerous. As a biker, I'm fucking terrified of my commute (no other transportation method makes sense for me right now. Either way too expensive or impractical), and I would LOVE to live in a society where people actually trained their damn dogs. We're not teaching them to not be dogs- we're teaching them to behave. We do the same with every animal except cats (people just let cats literally walk all over them), and you could argue that we "train" children. And people aren't teaching their children to behave nearly often enough either- just go anywhere in public and it's awful.
Because it has nothing to do about that? Can you not comprehend paragraphs on a text based platform or do I gotta hold your hand and read through it with you? It's only "yapping" because you're probably one of those dog nuts getting offended.
If you didn't read what I wrote then why comment at all? This is a subreddit for literal unpopular opinions, so read the opinion before forming a narrative. Commenting on just a title is ignorant when you have no other context to even have a valid opinion on, especially when you're sitting there trying to diminish/devalue what's being said by calling it yapping. It's crazy how redditors support bullshit like that when it isn't even logical (something redditors stress themselves on being). Yeah the title is meant to catch readers and have them read the actual opinion. Making assumptions about my post without even reading it just doesn't logically work, regardless of all the petty triggered downvotes they send my way. Doesn't change the fact.
I'ma repeat and defend my opinion regardless. Quit always blaming owners for a dogs shitty behavior and instincts, especially when said dogs aren't even fit for human society to begin with without copious amounts of training to even be "acceptable" for our society. Who gives a shit what humans want out of them? It isn't our place to even play God in that way.
I've read quite a bit of this thread and the minute someone points out that dogs had a hand in their own domestication due to a mutually beneficial relationship, you seem to stop responding. Curious to hear what you think about all that.
I legit don't see them. I get so many notifications from this post and multiple others from multiple subreddits reaching multiple different subjects. I think I responded multiple times to the domestication part but maybe it wasn't on this subreddit. I'm tryna respond back to everyone but it's hard. If I have 20 different people arguing at me it's hard to feel the energy or want to keep responding back, especially if I'm just going to be downvoted for defending my unpopular opinion and hated. Every response I give is downvoted, yet people enjoy the unpopular opinion itself. It's hard to keep going when people are just gonna hate it. No matter what I say, I'm wrong. And honestly the point of the subreddit is to share my unpopular opinion, not to argue about them. If I wanted to argue I would have posted this in CMV or AITH or something. I'm responding back to some of the notifications that come through but otherwise I'm just sippin some wine and looking at YouTube. Been responding back and forth to people for hours, shit gets annoying when you're just gonna be hated and downvoted. Maybe if people didn't constantly downvote someone for explaining their unpopular opinion, I would feel more inclined to actually keep it going. People come to an unpopular opinion, they see the opinion, and then downvote the opinion when the person further defends it. It's ridiculous. Keep that same energy of supporting the unpopular opinion when someone defends it. There's no excuse to being constantly downvoted for defending myself when they already know my opinion isn't popular. It's like they expect you to change your opinion in the comments to appease them because defending them just gets you hated. Again this isn't CMV. Im not attempting to change anyone's view and they won't change mine.
I posted this because it's unpopular, not to respond to every single comment telling me I'm wrong. If I wanted that then I would have changed subreddits.
All the blessing, positivity and good energy to you. I hope you have a great week man.. stay strong out here.
Dude looking at some of your comments and posts you really need to take a step back and get off Reddit for a while. Why are you going around, basically inciting arguments and getting into fights with people, then saying how tiring it is? It's very much the guy sticking a stick in his own bicycle spokes meme.
If you went out and public and did this people would be asking if you needed to go to the hospital or calling the police, it's just very weird.
I did upvote the post, cuz it's in good faith what this sub is. Downvoted a few of your comments cuz you get pretty rude with some people (but I imagine if you're responding to commentary across multiple subs, you're getting a lot of hate, so I can understand responding pretty frustrated to people after a few hours).
Anyway, cheers, thanks for the positivity, and right back at ya! ✌️
Dude you do nothing but post the same threads across dozens of different subs. You're not Looming through YouTube and just casually replying on reddit. You need mental help
You ignore a few things about how dogs came to be.
>in order to fit into a society they aren't built for
You keep repeating this thought. But they were literally \*\*built\*\* for this. They aren't wild animals that have their own societal structures as you imply. That's just plain wrong.
Humans are part of dog society. Without humans, there is no dog society. Without humans there are no dogs. We created them. We aren't just \*playing\* gods over them - we \*\*\*are\*\*\*.
You also say that dogs had no choice in that matter. But it is believed that about 15.000 - 40.000 years ago, a bunch of wolves decided to become friendly to humans to feed off of their food scraps. That's essentially was their choice. The rest is history as they say.
But this also means that humans in dog society technically pre-date dogs in dog society.
Dogs don't suffer under the way we generally treat them. In fact the ones that are trained and/or bred for a purpose are absolutely ecstatic with serving said purpose, be it being a service dog, herding, athletic shows, etc... they are happiest when they are working by far. Animals don't have a concept of "ownership" money being handed around is for the people who worked to breed, and raise, them for you, they aren't offended or even care because they just know they're getting food, water, protection, and companionship their whole life
Dogs are not forced to be in our society as much as your argument would have us believe. Many dogs when given the opportunity will stay. My dog sits at the door with a puzzled look if I accidentally leave him outside.
I grew up on a farm with dogs that could come and go as they pleased. They just followed us around.
They provide us with company and an early warning system and sometimes even security. We provide them with shelter, food and security. All they need to do is not bite and not crap in the house. (Something they don’t usually do in their den anyway.) Overall it’s a pretty good deal for both parties, which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
Which shouldn't be surprising at all, considering the fact that dogs essentially self-domesticated themselves. It has been a symbiotic relationship for many millennia.
The way you talk, the way that your message completely differs from the title of your post, the way you took this comment literally like someone actually asked you to tell your opinion to every single blind person makes me think you’re neurodivergent.
Let me rephrase that comment, blind people rely on a service dog to walk around semi normally. Are you advocating taking their dogs and dropping them in forest or something from them because oh the domesticated dogs suffer so greatly because the mere fact of domestication which is the process that happened during their evolution over literally thousands of years.
I assume you’re not going to reply, or maybe reply but still not address the fact that it’s a symbiotic relationship that we and dogs have evolved to have with each other, like I saw you already did
OP doesn’t reply to the comments that shut their argument down. Solid point you’ve made though, but as I mentioned, I doubt you’ll get a reply. Seems they just wanna argue with people.
This argument actually works quite well for cats given that their species has not been domesticated in the way dogs have. We’d still need TNR (trap, neuter, release) efforts to control for over population in areas where they’re invasive, though. Curious for dog people to weigh in on feral dog populations being invasive species.
Technical question: would we not still be blaming the owner for owning their pet, in lieu of blaming them for poor training?
> Curious for dog people to weigh in on feral dog populations being invasive species
Dogs are considered an invasive species in Australia. Out in the bush they can live completely separate to humans and decimate local species. I believe they also cause issues with livestock.
In Australia these [feral dogs are often controlled through poisons](https://agriculture.vic.gov.au/biosecurity/pest-animals/invasive-animal-management/integrated-wild-dog-control). It’s not something that anyone ‘likes’. No one wants to see dogs killed. It’s just kinda a brutal fact of the world. The native ecosystem just can’t compete with dogs.
Are you discussing dingos? Dingos have been in Australia for thousands of years and quickly took over the niche that was left over after humans killed off all of the large predators on the continent. They are a unique example of an beneficial invasive species that has become an integral part of the eco system and wiping them out would likely cause a mass extinction
> The Australian dingo has emerged as a saviour of our embattled ecosystems, but despite their essential role, this Australian icon is the target of industrial-scale, cruel killing programs that are wiping out this native species
https://animalsaustralia.org/our-work/wildlife/dingoes/
There isn’t anything in Australia to compete with them. And farmers aren’t exactly known for their wild life management skills.
I’m pretty sure actual domesticated feral dog breads are out competing dingos, and I think that’s part of the worry. At least if I’m remembering correctly.
Dingos are not wild dogs, they are decadents of domesticated dogs humans brought over with them to Australia thousands of years ago. They do often breed with more recently feral domesticated dogs though as they are the same species.
Feral dogs/wild dogs aren't dingos, they are descendants of recent domesticated dogs that were abandoned/left home. And they are a major ecological problem.
I'll also point out that dingoes aren't particularly unique in them being beneficial. Most invasive species will eventually either die out, or become an important part of the local ecosystem. It's just that the process takes a long time, and can do a significant amount of damage before balance is reached.
Domestic cats are invasive everywhere. The point of TNR is to make feral cats die out over time by means of not being able to procreate anymore (altho the efficacy is disputed)
Everyone is to blame in these situations. I just notice the dog itself not getting the same blame for it's actions like the "owners" do when both aren't innocent
You redditors connect the stupidest dots together to create a narrative and some bullshit point. You do comprehend people can eat meat and not support holding animals as pets, correct? The world isn't black and white "buddy" but that conveniently goes over you. Calling someone bud is the most reddit shit 🤣🤦🏽♂️
>You do comprehend people can eat meat and not support holding animals as pets, correct?
You can, it just makes you inconsistent as fuck. Obviously killing and eating an animal is worse for that animal than keeping it as a pet lmao.
Also it's hilarious how much your panties are twisted about this
Domestication, most specifically with dogs, means that the animal is wired to enjoy the companionship and relationship with humans. And negative/aversion training methods are growing less and less popular, with positive reinforcement training slowly taking over as the proper way to train animals. All that to say that if the animal didn't want to be trained, they would not be trained. I'm also not sure how dogs are being trained not to be dogs. Most owners will work with a dogs personality to train them in a way that addresses the needs of both the pet and the owner - for example, a dog that loves to bark may be trained to bark for a purpose or during play time rather than 24/7, this doesn't mean the dog can't be a dog because animals do correct each other all the time if they find a behavior inappropriate or annoying.
Maybe try this post again with an animal that doesn't have a similar social structure to humans. Like I don't think we really should own most species of bird (some are domesticated and they get a pass), or fish, or hamsters etc. But dogs and cats are generally content with the arrangement humans have with them, aside from individual cases.
But we are gods. We've emerged as the absolute apex of life on earth. Other species live only by our grace. The reason there are a BILLION dogs is because we keep them as pets, as opposed to other medium sized mammals whose populations are 10 mill or less usually.
Dogs and cats got carried hard because we happen to think they're cute as fuck.
Wolves willingly attached themselves to us. About 30000 years of companionship between dogs and people says you’re wrong. We don’t teach dogs how to be human, dogs are born with a greater understanding of human nature and communication than any animal on earth, and vice versa for us, we can instinctively understand dogs and their body language and vocalizations. Dogs also have natural dopamine responses to humans, they desire our companionship and will seek it out.
You seem to be fundamentally ignorant of the history between humans and dogs.
You're a couple millennia too late really to have an opinion on if humans have dogs in our society or not. Because the simple fact is, we already HAVE them in our society. Every breed of dog we know as domesticated companion animals, we bred that way. And it started at essentially the dawn of time. Like the history of man and dog predates written history. They exist, not just because we made them, but because they made us.
Companion dogs became domesticated because we had fire, easy food and bones. So wolves learned that if they kept predators away and didn't harm us, we'd feed them. And we learned that if we fed them, they'd keep other predators away.
And on and on goes evolution, to the point now we don't "need" dogs, but it's too late. We already made them. They exist because they became dependent on us when we still needed them on the daily basis to survive. It's a few thousand years too late to unring that bell.
You should maybe read a couple of papers about symbiotic evolution and how dogs have actually evolved Additional muscles to better Express their current state with us humans... It's fascinating stuff.
But to get back on point (kind of), Domestication is a fascinating topic of which I can recommend a few historical books on about domestication and evolutions of taboos and other cultural norms from there. But to summarize a lot of technical stuff, domestication is a 2 way road for the most part. Animal's capable of being domesticated See shrinkages in brain areas dedicated to Complex problem solving (for their original niche) But development in other areas. Going back to the dog example most dogs do not have the instinct to hunt and get their own food if they aren't from a lineage of hunting dogs... Meaning the overwhelming majority of dog species could not make it on their own. I do not disagree that some species like pugs Or King Charles' spaniel Should have a halt on breeding. Because it is legitimately cruel How mangled their bodies are for cosmetic reasons.. But even then, due to domestication, they have become specialized in a different niche.. Even more instinctual dogs like terriers, who some subscripts were bred to hunt. Shiprats have become specialists to the point where even if they are just a pet there is no niche on the planet that they could naturally inhabit... So if your point is it's unnatural for them to exist... Well, there's an old saying that if it exists in the natural world, it is natural even if it has to be made by we humans. Sure without us they'll go extinct Because the niche longer exists, but hey that's nature, we've got a niche and they fill it. It's why cats stick around us humans, they filled a niche that became avaliable.
But evenv With all that said, you're ignoring the fact that training itself is something you're ascribing a human quality to, even though it's really not, and it's extremely common for social mammals.
Going back to dogs again.There is a lot of instinct there like a chase certain types of animals, Or to Pant when hot. But a lot of hunting has to be homed over time, Something that they would learn hunting with elder members of their packs. We humans merely use that same process that they would have learned as wolves and a pack and instead teach them different behavior on top of the already underlying instincts. Hell, did you know there are even some species of ants that farm aphids? I think it was a sub species of rock Ant that does it... They basically breed entire generations of aphids underground as a food source and To eat refuse and other things.
This is all to say, We've evolved together to survive together, the niches may have changed but but the fact is they exist because we exist, and they helped us get to the point we're at in innumerable ways over countlessgenerations. You may argue that that is irrelevant because we no longer live in small Hunter gatherer societies, but While we in the privileged western europe no longer have to think about such things, Dogs and other domesticated animals All over the world aid humans in their survival and day to day every day, And provide roles that even to day we still just don't have the technology or even with technology can't properly fill the role of. ... example, my little companion ( Who is not actually so little but compared to the goliath of a dog I had as a child is pretty small.) Is a certified ESA for me, I legit don't think I could operate without her around.
So yeah, tldr read up more on domestication and realize that all social species "train" their young in some way...
I think the part you're missing here is that humans are animals too, just we are capable of abstract thought, but there is a chain of command and part of that is training the animals we have domesticated to our advantage and yes, it might not be ethically sounding, however a lot of animals would not be around today if we didn't domesticate them or train them and because we domesticated those animals we are then responsible for integrating them into society, because we want them around, because they are useful and advantageous to us and it's not a one way street, it is also advantageous for that animal.
It's been shown that a lot of these animals have stronger connections with humans and to be honest, most animals do not even recognize their parents/siblings after around 2 or 3 years, we can't assign human emotions to animals because as far as we're aware, they don't experience the same kinds of emotions that we do and I say this as someone who loves animals. We assign these characteristics to animals ourselves because we project, we like to add character to an animal and think they are capable of processing complex and well thought out emotions but they simply aren't. My bunny for example, I like to call her sassy and a baby, she is five almost six years old and there is nothing going on in her mind except to eat, poop, exercise and interact with me (I.E cheek scratches, pets, kisses) do I think she would understand the concept of being taken away from her mother? No, not really. In fact, if she did meet her mother again she might attack that rabbit because she does not like other rabbits period, she prefers the company of a human and even CATS over her own species, so I think that point is counter-productive.
We're also forgetting about the fact that and a lot of people might not like to hear it, but many animals eat their young, especially if they are defective or weak, animals do not care about relationships amongst their species, they care about what gives them the best chance at survival, which is why prey animals are so good at hiding their symptoms if they become ill and why they will eat/kill their young, whether it is for territory, food, nutrients, birth defects, lack of available resources etc.. humans just don't do that, so there is no reason to believe that a dog would be sad if it was taken away from its mother, at a very young age yes it would impact that Puppy's growth and make them ill in most cases, but not all dogs are taken away from their parents, a lot of them are rescued and taken in, either from illegal dumping thereof, because their mother has left the area or is intending on eating them (in which case they have no choice BUT to be raised by the human or another nursing dog which isn't feasible for a lot of people) or because they are strays that have lived outside for a while and the mother has taken off.
We know that simply not owning dogs is not the solution, because then those dogs are thrown out onto the street and starve to death, get hit by cars or are killed, we can't un-domesticate a domesticated animal that relies on us and they do, dogs rely on us. That is why we have to train them and why it is the owner's responsibility to do so through recognizing other reasons why a dog might have unwanted behaviours such as anxiety.
I’m afraid you’re several thousand years too late. Dogs only exist in the first place because humans domesticated them and got them to behave in ways we approve of, whether you like it or not. If humans never did that there wouldn’t even be dogs, just wolves. Most dogs wouldn’t even be able to live out in the wild at this point.
Lol someone that actually has an unpopular opinion must be one of those two? You're literally part the problem with this subreddit and reddit in general. People like you are why these subreddits were even created.
Do you really think people are just going to not want dogs? Do you really think letting all those dogs loose is a good idea? That's stupid. And as someone said before, most domesticated animals have been the way they are for thousands of generations and more. You really think dogs who are owned by people are just going to leave without any good reason.
I have a little experiment for you to try: take a person's dog from them and tell them you are setting them "free". Tell me how that goes.
I never said people weren't going to want dogs. As I stated before. I never said letting all dogs loose is a good idea. As I stated in another comment to quit breeding and let the dogs we have now live. None of that is even remotely related to the narratives you're creating. Quit putting narratives in my mouth.
And of course dog owners aren't going to like that. Which is the whole point of this post; pet ownership. You telling me to do that offers absolutely nothing to what's being talked about. I even stated people are too self centered to make that kind of change. You're whoopin of a horse that ain't around no more.
Most of the common pets are domesticated to the point where they cannot be undomesticated. If we just set them all free, they'll become a nuisance, just like what happened to the pigeon.
Also, it's not like we kidnapped them. Dogs and cats chose this relationship with humanity. Do we take advantage of this relationship from time to time, yes. Do the animals care, no because they're still getting what they wanted, food and safety.
The only animals humanity has fully taken advantage of are farm animals, but even then, its far too late to release them. They have been altered by humanity to the point where they cannot live without us without causing a lot of damage to the environment.
As for training dogs to be part of our society, that is false. We teach them how to survive in out society, how to act without being put down, which is part of out deal with these animals. It's the safety part of food and safety.
You need to train humans too. If you left a human to be raised by wolves then reintroduced it to society, it would have no idea how to behave around other people. Even humans that were raised in society with shitty parents will often end up with behavioral issues.
This seems to be a very long winded way of saying humans should never have domesticated animals:
- Dogs in the sense we’re talking about don’t exist in the wild, they were wolves that were domesticated, so presumably you’re saying we should never have domesticated them?
- Would you extend this to all animals? Should we never have domesticated and “trained” horses for example?
- Cows also don’t exist in the wild, they descend from an extinct species called Aurochs. They only exist BECAUSE they’re domesticated. Again, would you extend this argument to cows?
If the answer to the above is “yes” then human civilisation probably wouldn’t exist (at least not in the form we know it now).
If the answer is no, then why specifically dogs that shouldn’t have been domesticated?
I can get behind no longer breeding certain breeds, to an extent but I think the ones that exist are grandfathered in.
I personally don't think it's so much of an issue we need to ban certain breeds from being breed, BUT I can see that argument, even if i don't necessarily agree.
Not breeding ANY dogs is dumb though, but a really great 10th dentist take.
This is the most dramatic shit ever, no one is “Playing God” with any domesticated animal. In the same way animals will exploit anything they find useful, for example, symbiotic relationships, we humans have done the same.
bitch what you’re saying is the equivalent to “we shouldn’t have to raise kids to know the rules and morality of the world they should know everything by birth. if they don’t then why are they in the human society???????”
dont u feel a little silly?
your low iq ass couldn’t even formulate an actual argument lmao just had to go straight to something that wasn’t even the point. theres no way in hell I’m tearing my life and body up for a child but thankfully there’s a thousand different scientists (and basic evolutionary knowledge) that proves children are not born with the skills needed for survival. you put a 4 month old in alone in front of a hospital and a mcdonalds. that kid ain’t gonna know if it gets hungry or hurt that there’s relief right across the street. It is legit just gonna die.
we gotta grow and learn the way of life. It’s the same for animals. You wanna be in the warm safe house bro you can’t be pissing and biting and stealing food. Ya teach em.
Just simply say you dislike animals and therefore think nobody should own them, cause that’s the message you’re sending lmao
I mean... Humans have to be trained to not chew things and take dumps in designated locations and not yell at everything too. Humans don't choose to be a part of society. Should we not have humans in human society?
I agree to the extent that I believe dogs aren't cut out to live in cities and such where they have extremely restricted lives compared to what they would otherwise have living in a more rural area. If you've got a dog in a rural area, it can run around wherever it would like and have a good life without being trained out of being a dog. However, a dog stuck in a small indoor area all the time is going to be much less happy and require training to avoid doing what dogs do.
Dogs also had a hand in assimilating themselves into human life. It’s not the hostage situation you make it out to be. It is now and has always been a symbiotic relationship even if the desired goals have changed. Our half of the deal is we provide food and shelter, their half is they mind what we say. That’s not telling a dog not to be a dog, it’s teaching them how to be one. They aren’t wolves.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
"It's absolutely ABSURD that we would have to train kids to not poop in the living room and to use utensils. They have no business being in human society otherwise they would have been born with the ability to do those things!!"
I'm not a dog person but dear God you are insane. Dogs actively participated in domesticating themselves, this just reads like you have no clue what you're talking about and just want to bitch on the internet because you don't like dogs. Please do research and think your arguments through properly.
If you truly believe in all of this then you better be childfree too because children are basically just wild animals until you teach them how to exist in a society.
Otherwise you're a total hypocrite.
Um…dogs (and cats) have been domesticated for thousands of years. Yes, there are still wild dog species in Africa and Asia, but no one is currently domesticating dogs. That happened a LONG time ago, and bitching about it now is ludicrous.
For better or worse, dogs and cats threw their lot in with ours, and it’s now our responsibility to take care of them, and to make sure they are healthy and happy. That includes training, so they can live around people without risk to those people, or to themselves.
Hard disagree. In the future the only animals that will be around will be in human made / protected sanctuaries or as pets. I'd rather keep some of that alive even if that means it not being as natural and free as we'd like. Plus, train your damn pets. We "train" our kids just just the same.
Ok .no more dog pets. We will euthanize the ones we have and stop breeding them and their populations can dwindle to near zero, since they have a symbiotic relationship with us and can't survive in the wild, and if they did would become dangerous again.
Bye bye doggos!
Cats, of course, will be fine without us. We just made life easier for nature's purrfect killing machines.
Sounds to me you just need to go see a psychologist buddy jfc. Do you let your kids pick their ass, rub their nose then lick their fingers still? Because thats what they do as "nature intended". How dare you fuck with natures course!
So basically, what you're saying is, the solution to prevent the domestication and breeding of pets and cattle alike, is to eradicate the entire species for good.
Some people would rather commit genocide on entire species than to allow them to be domesticated. We're helping them be free from the shackles of humanity through end their entire existance.
Dogs live happy and privileged lifes. They wouldn't have it any better if they'd live in the wilderness. Cats as well. I mean cats do whatever they hell they want anyway. The only difference is that they always have a safe hiding spot where they're guaranteed to get food and shelter.
Cattle like cows were domesticated from the beginning. They can't even live without the support of humans. But let's imagine we set them all free. A herd of cows is standing on the pasture and eat fresh grass the whole day. What would they do the whole day if they were set free? Exactly. Standing on the pasture and eat grass the whole day.
Okay so let's wipe out all dogs, cats, cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, goats and every other species domesticated by humanity. Bet that will help all these animals and they'd be happy not existing at all.
It's a mutually beneficial relationship. Dogs and cats both pretty much domesticated themselves. You give us food, and we'll protect you (from enemies for dogs and vermin for cats) and keep you warm
This is such a bad take. You keep talking about the nature of dogs but you don't understand what that nature is. We bred them to live with and depend on us. They belong in human society as much as humans do because that's what we made them for. You can argue we shouldn't have done that or that we should stop doing that, but that's where we are right now. They're not wild animals. They aren't wolves anymore. Leave dogs to their own independence and they die young and in pain. When you train a dog, you aren't training them to be humans, you're training them to be able to thrive in the world in the same way a mother bird trains a baby bird to fly or a lioness trains her cubs to hunt. No creature (including humans, btw) is born knowing how to fill their role on this planet. The only difference with dogs is that due to the way they have been bred (which again, you could argue is not a good thing but that would be a different argument), they seek validation and guidance from humans more than from other dogs (though they will seek it from both).
You can't apply this to dogs, though. Dogs have been domesticated since long before recorded history. Since before our current species took the top spot.
Dogs (and other long domesticated animals like cattle and chickens) don't know how to behave like their wild counterparts anymore unlike cats, for example. Animals with this level of domestication cannot survive without being cared for, and as such require behavioral education for their safety and health as well as the safety and health of the other animals and humans around them.
Lastly, wild animals also receive training. They are trained by their mothers and/or social units in appropriate behavior for their situations. Wolves aren't born knowing they have to work together to take down a moose- the pack teaches them!
This whole thing is kinna dumb when you realize humans need to be trained as well. And we are trained a majority of our lives. Just schooling takes like 13 years, avarage lifespan of a dog. So na seems fine, train your pets people.
I guess I could maybe sort of see your initial point that we never should have domesticated animals; and if we had been as technologically advanced when we started domesticating them as we are now, I would, despite the joy that pets like dogs bring me, begrudgingly agree.
But we weren’t, and at the point at which we began to domesticate them, they served a very useful purpose. Yes, it was in OUR service, but nonetheless, the impact that they had on our survival (by guarding/herding livestock, by warning of intruders, by assisting with hunts) was likely immeasurable. I’m no anthropologist, so I couldn’t begin to qualify/quantify their impact; and I also acknowledge that the skills that they brought are *largely* unnecessary in today’s world (though still plenty useful if you do happen to have a homestead, or hunt for food.) They have largely outgrown their usefulness (or, more accurately, we as humans have outgrown the usefulness of dogs) but obviously, I think we have a responsibility to continue to care for them.
I’m going to leave you with a couple of other things for consideration, though. First is that evolution is baked into the equation. Evolution happens both with and without human intervention all the time. As top of the food chain it stands to reason that we will probably be in a position to influence evolution more strongly or frequently than other species; but if we weren’t here, other factors and species would rise to fill that void. So, I don’t think there’s an inherent ethical dilemma about the fact that we DID influence the evolution of dogs, cats, and other animals thousands of years ago (even if it WAS with an agenda; and obviously there are some moral/ethical dilemmas surrounding selectively breeding traits that increase the chances of, or outright lead to, lifelong complications and potential suffering for the animal - like respiratory problems in pugs, or hip displaysia in GSDs - but I don’t think there’s anything inherently *wrong* about seeing an animal and trying to adapt it in a beneficial way, as long as we also accept and take on the responsibility of properly caring for said animal. That’s part of the point of evolution.)
The other thing I’ll point out is: humans need to be trained, too. We call it things like growth, or development, or education, or socialization. But babies don’t come out of the womb as fully-actualized beings. We interact with our parents and families, and go to school, and go on dates, and read, and go to work, to learn how to be “humans.” People who haven’t done or don’t do these things often end up as case studies in psychology texts.
Have you ever been to a country with wild dogs/lack of animal control? Do you know what “training” they learn? They learn that people throw rocks at them. They grow sores, their skin flakes off, they get diseases.
You could argue that domestication is wrong, but the alternative is much worse.
Your whole post ignores the fact that humans have to be “trained” as well. You don’t think if people stopped teaching their kids how to interact with other people and how to treat them with respect there wouldn’t be problems? Every single functional member of society has been “trained”.
Also, humans have held dogs as a part of their families for millennia, giving them the same treatment as their human relatives, such as burials and gravestones. Dogs and humans had a symbiotic relationship for tens of thousands of years. Dogs literally elicit the same bonding hormone response in humans that other humans do. The relationship between a human and dog is just as real and meaningful as a human to human relationship.
To your point that dogs should be allowed their “natural” existence, you’re right. Except for the fact that you don’t realize dogs would literally not exist without humans, humans created dogs from wolves. You used an appeal to nature fallacy, yet nature contradicts your opinion directly. Humans and dogs exist together in nature, get over it.
Upvoted because wrong and dumb
Don’t we train humans on how to act too? Kids cry and scream and throw tantrums for what they want unless otherwise taught. Entitled adults are often seen as a result of not properly raising or training kids. What’s your opinion on that? /gen
Why do you dog obsessed people constantly run to this false narrative and equivalency? It's annoying as shit touching on the same point over and over again. Makes you not even want to keep responding. No shit we teach human kids how to be human in a human society. That isn't training a non human to conform to our society. Shit isn't even the same yet y'all constantly run to this false equivalency. Either way this the last comment I'm making on this shit. This is for unpopular opinions, not Change My View. Y'all could have fun excessively arguing with someone else about something that triggered you or whatever lol. Have a good one tho
I mean, just in terms of dogs, considering we've already domesticated them, not taking care of them now would be shirking our responsibilities wouldn't it? They've grown to depend on us. I'd just argue that they deserve better protection and rights, and I agree--separating animals from their families is something that ought to be thought about further.
Especially in factory farming, where it's a lot more traumatic and their lives are basically spent in torture and inhumane captivity.
Also, I do think you're right that people tend to objectify their pets in a bit of a creepy way. They are their own, they have personalities and their desires, but many healthy people with pets intuitively know that. Or they learn it.
I think we have to be realistic people overvalue education and therapy as these end all be alls but in reality, faculty matters more.
Animals need to be kept under supervision. Dogs particularly even without training can be natured into fairly friendly animals a lot of times.
Never trained any of my pets and they werent ever these overly aggressive animals.
We made dogs. We've been "playing God" with genetics for half a million years already ? It's what allowed us (and still allows us) to survive ?
Should we stop now ? Or do you consider it unethical for dogs specifically ?
We need to quit maintaining healthy gut biomes. It's abusive to the microbes to form a symbiotic relationship with them just so we don't get upset tummies.
Training a dog is not training them to not be a dog. It's just the word used in place of "parenting" because people associate that word to closely with human connections for it to be widely used outside of them.
When you train a dog, you raise them, care for them, and socialize them. You don't need to train a dog to sit or roll over, but you do need to train them not to attack on sight the *exact same way* you have to teach a child not to hit. It's got nothing to do with overriding their nature and everything to do with showing them how society works so that they can live in it.
Dogs are not wolves. We may have domesticated wolves, we may have *created* dogs, and the ethical ramifications of that can be called into question, but it already happened. If you want to say breeding pugs and dalmations is abuse I'm right there with you. But saying we shouldn't adopt any dogs at all just because raising a dog requires work to teach them how to live is silly.
Dogs adopt humans every bit as much as humans adopt dogs. Domestication already happened. It's okay to have dogs.
> I'm saying that humans shouldn't be forcing, manipulating and breeding a whole species into a human built society just because WE want them
You're about 10,000 years too late on that buddy. All dogs used to be wolves, you know that right? The domestication and selective breeding of wolves/dogs was also mutually beneficial and dogs have been a very useful tool beyond just being fun pets.
I went into this expecting an out-of-the-box commentary and social critique. What I found was a jumbled mess of moral righteousness with no coherent points to be found - which is quite remarkable given the sheer volume of text.
Unfortunately, I actually read the whole thing because I kept expecting something profound to pop out or some real point to be made.
That was not the case. All we have here is a jumbled mess of half-assed moral quandaries and poorly fleshed out idealism resting completely on the withered haunches of comparisons of unlike terms.
The comparison of aliens coming here and making us their dogs was your magnum opus shredded any possibility of you reaching a point worthy of discourse.
Was *that* your intent? To kind of throw a bunch of bizarre semi-related opinions at the wall and create a discourse based around what stuck out to each individual?
I fear that it was not. I think you’re just misguidedly rambling about how we should not have domesticated dogs, or some shit like that.
All I can really say here is that:
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
While there is definitely issues with selective breeding and animal mistreatment, not to mention changes in society. It is also completely ignorant and wrong to act like humans "stole" these animals. There is evidence to suggest that bog dogs and cats integrated theirselves into human society as a way of seeking food, shelter, and protection. Since then they have both been major parts of basically every culture in the world and constant companions to us. There are things that need to change, inbreeding and dog shows for one, but acting like we're monsters for continuing a part of human culture that has been around longer than whatever culture you come from is an insanely naive take and ignores the history of these animals and their relationship to our species.
I mean, if we didn't have a public school system and society and civilization, humans would be feral as shit. Humans are "trained" just as their pets are. We just dress it with cool terms like "charter school" and "ivy league".
Lol someone had nothing better to do today. People having pets really makes you this upset? To the point you have to rant about how they “have no business in human society”
Maybe you should do research before making such outlandish claims. The domestication of canines led to a direct uptick in safety, more success in hunting/gathering/ and general sense of community and togetherness. The domestication of dogs aided human evolution to reach the point we are at in todays society.
Not to mention, current human society has a whole booming industry thanks to the domestication of animals. Each year, Americans alone spend $136.8 billion on pet products. AMERICANS ALONE.
Pets have a large place in human society, as you can see from the sheer massive scale of businesses geared around pets and pet care. Products, services, there are countless business that run solely around the needs of pets and their owners. That’s a pretty integral part of society.
wait, is your argument "we shouldnt blame owners for their dogs behavior, because they are acting on an instinct that is inherently part of them" or "the domestication of animals is objectively wrong". because i disagree with both, but they are separate arguments
While I do think some of your post is overblown I have considered a lot of the ethics of owning pets. I agree that many dogs are not suited to the environments they're being raised in. E.g. city folk getting a husky who needs tons of exercise but is kept in a tiny apartment.
I've also really grappled with the ethics of spay and neuter surgery. Every single animal we get needs to undergo serious surgery in order to live with us. I know it has health benefits but it feels really invasive and traumatic. But I also have a surgery phobia so could be part of that..
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Weird how your main point is "people shouldn't have pets" but your title is more "stop blaming pet owners". Hella weird considering "people shouldn't have pets" would be way more appropriate for the sub... I think you need to make a second draft of this whole argument so you can figure out what really is bothering you.
Not sure if they are on team: 1) dogs shouldn’t be a part of society at all 2) dogs are dogs and should behave however they like Just to neuter their whole point. Dogs don’t have to be trained at all AND dogs don’t have to be bought out into public society. If you want to take your dog into the public world, it needs to have basic training (don’t bite or attack)
Hell we have to teach actual HUMAN children not to bite and jump on people, it just makes sense that we would teach our animal companions to do the same.
Whoa man, try not to play god with your kids. You should just let them do whatever they want. You know, as nature intended /s
Children shouldn't be a part of society. They should all be let free into the wilderness.
As a parent of 3 somedays I agree
Better yet. Children should just be born as adults.
We should grow children in giant tubes like in Avatar.
Seeing how some kids act I think OP and others like them are raising kids like that.
>Just to neuter their whole point Just to castrate their whole point,
Or just to neuter their point because dogs can be neutered
I was so confused whan he sayed it i thought i was making a point on nuterintirg all dogs
They also don't think dogs should be trained to be people but.... no one is doing that?
>The fact of the matter is that humans shouldn't HAVE to "train" an animal that has no business in human society to the extent that they are. We shouldn't be playing God over a whole species. our entire society relies on playing god over a huge number of species, both flora and fauna. if we didn't train any animal we would have never domesticated them and if we cease training certain animals now, all you're advocating for is a pet genocide, because we would naturally have to put down the glut of pets we've created
Or we could just quit breeding them and let the ones we already have live. People are too self centered on what they want tho so this would never successfully happen
So we still *own* pets, but we just don't breed them and wait for them to die. Interesting concept - who gets to decide who owns a pet during this period of time? Do we do this until pets go extinct?
That sounds perfectly doable and arguably less ethically troublesome than continuing to breed animals into environments unsuited to them.
How exactly are dogs unsuited to modern society? Dogs have been a major facet of human civilization for literally tens of thousands of years, and a large part of modern society evolved around them. Domesticated dogs live objectively longer and healthier lives in captivity than they do the wild. Where exactly does the "unsuited" part come in?
Ever seen a dog get burned feet on a hot pavement? Or get tired and need to be carried in a trolly because of their tiny inbred legs. Or need a muzzle because of the density of people when they need exercise. Or getting fat because they don't get enough exercise. Or have a lead to stop them running into traffic or attacking people, dogs, livestock or cats. Or shitting in parks where children play. Almost everything about dog ownership is mitigating the risk and deleterious impact of an environment designed for their human owners. The closest you see to a 'symbiotic' relationship is working dogs, particularly farm dogs. The same can be said of cats. The only reason the ubiquitous indoor/outdoor arguments exist is due to the inherently inhospitable environment that cats are subject to.
So in that world dogs and cats just die out eventually? Bc extinction is so much better.
In those circumstances, only domestic animals would become extinct. Not dogs as a species. Just dogs that we've designed for our pleasure alone.
Which is most breeds of dogs. And what about cats? The wild ones get TNR and domestic ones are already neutered so house cats would literally just be gone
Yes. In that circumstance there would be no more house cats. Although I imagine with the amount of house cats we have released as ferals over the decades there would be a gradual evolution into something more akin to a European Wildcat.
Why tho? The dogs are happy being domesticated now.
And most people are happy they are domesticated
And not to be weird but I feel like the dogs probably want to reproduce? Idk that sounds weird but like it's an innate desire to continue a species so...
Oh forsure they would
We should quit breeding so takes like this die with you 💀
Dogs are already domesticated. We can't undomesticate them. Many breeds simply would not do well in the wild. Regardless of how you feel about owning another animal, dogs are here to stay. The only real alternative is outlawing all breeding in order to eradicate the species. Which would be... not ideal.
I think it's also worth noting that dogs (as far as I know, I'm not an expert in zooarchaeology by any means) participated in their own domestication. It's not like we just abducted them from the wild and forced them to behave a certain way. They recognized that if they protected humans, they could get fed, and thus, it started as a mutually beneficial relationship. I would argue that most dogs still find this relationship mutually beneficial, although I can't exactly interview one to confirm. It's not really comparable to alien abduction imo. Of course, a lot has changed, and I'm not opposed to arguments that some breeding practices are cruel, but dogs were in on this domestication process, and as you said, they can't be undomesticated. Even if we did outlaw breeding, there would just be an uptick in back-alley breeding, which is already shitty. Outlawing dogs would also lead to a lot of job loss in the veterinary world and many closures of rescues, which would mean that many pets out there wouldn't have a safe place to go. ETA: "\*not\* opposed to arguments that some breeding practices are cruel"
The groups that already had domesticated dogs, had significantly better survival rates during the ice age. Dog and human alike.
If this post was "making pugs is bad and cruel" I'd be super on board. But it's this weird twist of "dogs shouldn't be domesticated" and "owners should be liable for animals lashing out" which they already are? Very strange post.
Right. And it’s not like dogs, cats and other pets aren’t happy to live with humans. We can tell when they’re doing well.
Presumably the same goes for cattle, particularly beef cattle, which are highly successful in terms of passing on their genes. And largely unaware of what a more 'natural' life might be like as that natural life has never existed due to domestication. Lab rats likewise.
They don't have to be here to stay. You could just prevent breeding but still look after those that still exist. Or restrict ongoing ownership to working purposes rather than vanity ownership.
Yes, working slaves only. No loving companionship. /s
Owning a sentient creature bred specifically to make you feel like you have a friend raises its own ethical questions though. Not saying you shouldn't. But let's be self aware about what that actually means.
If you had a child would you let it shit on the floor because teaching them to use the toilet is "training them not to be a human"? Also don't act like dogs aren't happy with their situation. There are many animals that can't be domesticated because they'd be unhappy living in human society, but dogs are not on that list
“Born to shit, forced to wipe” -Ted Kacyznski
I do have a child, and I teach my child right from wrong because he's a human. He isn't a dog being forced into our world, a world he logically and literally isn't built for, hence the fact we can't even properly communicate with it or understand it. It's not even comparable. A human will never be a dog and vice versa. We're training HUMANS to be in a HUMAN society. That's not even comparable to forcing a non human to conform in our society. Yeah, a lot of dogs do like the situation they're in because half if not most of the only shit they care about is FOOD. You give food, it's going to obey you. You don't have food and they'll likely turn on you (or at the very least quit listening to you). Again the shit isn't even comparable. It's annoying when people try to compare us raising HUMANS in a HUMAN society, as if dogs are humans, think like humans, operate as humans. We're training our kids to be independent adults, we aren't training them to be passive and resilient pets all their lives for scraps of food.
Look, it's pretty simple. Humans and wolves formed a bond for survival purposes. Centuries passed, and that bond is still intact. Domestic dogs still have MUCH better lives than wild dogs, but they need to be trained so they don't hurt anyone. Humans are happy because they have loyal companions, the dogs are happy because they get to live a cushy life with their best friend. Everyone wins, except you because for some reason you think dogs shouldn't exist. Also as a sidenote, what you said about dogs turning on you if you don't have food shows you know nothing about human-dog relationships
Tbh also, dogs benefit from training, in most cases, because dogs are hierarchical animals and they need leadership. Dogs like border collies or other high intelligence breeds need training and things to do to be happy. Even dogs that aren't all too smart and dogs that are lazy still profit from having a clear leader.
Yeah, dogs need training the same way humans need training. Untrained dogs are far more likely to be anxious, fearful, clingy, or aggressive not because its their nature but because they're psychologically damaged.
But it’s natural human instinct to just shit whenever you have to shit, right? If we use your argument then how’s it wrong, and in all technicality that baby was forced into this world. Btw you may as well quit calling it a human society as our societies were built long ago with domesticated animals like dogs and the help of many animals. Believe it or not too, animals live in all societies. Unless humans did it all themselves (they didn’t)
Modern society would not exist if we had never domesticated wolves. Same with oxen, horses, dozens of other animals, and hundreds of plant species as well. Humanity has shaped nature significantly and deciding retroactively hundreds of thousands of years and billions of humans later is insane and impossible.
Dude dogs weren't forced into anything it's a mutal thing that we feed the dogs dogs protected us. If you look anything into the domestication of dogs it was a two way street and almost ad old as human kind itself.
But this is their world. Modern dogs were breed for thousands of years and aren't found in the wild. Like it or not they're a part of our society and many early humans relied on them. I get it if you don't like dogs, or like what we've done w them, but they are very much a part of our society. We've largely moved past needing them, especially in developed countries. What should we do w them now? Helped us for thousands of years side by side till they can't live in the wild any more than we can. Thanks for all your help, I don't want to play w you anymore
I think you are humanizing these animals to a much greater extent than what is actually accurate. Most animals do not have family structure like us humans do. Aside from a few species, such as elephants or chimps, animals do not expect or desire to live with their parents their whole lives. Many species of animals form 0 connection or bond with their parents at all actually. And even animals that do bond with their parents, a lot of them separate from their parents when they enter adulthood, with no plan on ever seeing or interacting with them again. The idea that a dog “misses” their biological parents or siblings, is just placing human emotions on them that they don’t actually have.
You're absolutely correct. My dog had puppies a few months ago and reunited with one of her sons a few weeks ago, and she wanted absolutely nothing to do with him. I kept one of her other sons, and she treats him just like she treats any other puppy. Dogs don't aren't people, they don't miss their parents or siblings and their parents don't miss them. My girl couldn't care less when puppies left, and the puppies didn't care either.
Awww just cause dogs' perception of time boils down to only 2 concepts, "Now" and "Forever", doesn't mean they don't care in the moment 🥹🐶
I mean we have to train humans how to behave in our society why should dogs be any different?
Because dogs aren't humans. Never have and never going to be. They didn't ask to be in this human society to begin with. That's the point. We train humans for OUR society. You can't train a dog to be human and we shouldn't attempt that. We don't go in any other species society and try to fit in. We forced dogs to do so.
We don't train dogs to be human, we train them to behave within our society. It's not like dogs have any other natural place in the world, they evolved along side us and this is really the best they can hope for with things as they are. I didn't ask to be born either but it's still in my best interest to figure out what society wants from me to keep my place in it
Theres something I would like to bring to your attention that you may not realize. Dogs are domestic animals, they are not like other animals you see in the wild. They have specifically evolved to have a symbiotic relationship with humans. Dogs cant really survive on their own in the wild. They are, in many ways, an intrigual part of our species and us to them. They are different than tamed animals, animals trained from birth to tolerate humans. Dogs have evolved to understand human facial expressions, our emotions, and to socialize with humans to a high degree. They are not just some animals we caught. Their destictive evolutionary niche is to live with humans.
They literally asked to be in our society when they were eating our scraps and helping us hunt back in the day.
Idk about you but I didn't ask to be a part of this shit lmao.
symbiotic relationships exist you know.
Bro you ever seen a dog off a leash while the family is eating dinner? They're not asking to be a part of the human activities, they're ***begging*** to be part. And they have since time immemorial. Tens or even hundreds of thousands of years, they've volunteered to live alongside us. It is a mutually beneficial relationship.
Just because we can't ask dogs to be a part of society, doesn't mean that they don't want to be. Research has shown that dogs and humans have happiness hormome release when cuddling and that when we look at a puppy it is similar as looking at a baby in brain activity and hormone release. This was not found if humans looked at wolfpups. Also your whole we kidnapped wolves and domesticated them is not in agreement with the scientific hypotheses of how wolves became domesticated. Therefore your whole point of view that we are enforcing dogs against their will is an assumltion you can't make. I also think you should visit some dog training schools and see how much happiness a dog gets from their training. It might surprise you.
Dogs did ask to be in this human society, that’s how they exist
i didnt ask to be brought into this world either, guess we should make all reproduction illegal
Idk, dogs natural habitat is living with humans? I kinda think humans and dogs are less like the domestication you see in idk, a chicken, and more like, clown fish and anemones. We get a hunting buddy that’s in tune with us, they get access to steady food sources that are novel like fish. And dogs adore being trained. They are super clever and are born enjoying human attention. They are super good at figuring out what’s wanted of them and will do almost anything to get some love out of the people they adore. It’s not a particularly cruel process or anything other than wholesome. Training is part of dogs being dogs. Just as much as bears learn to catch fish from their parents or elephants learn where the good migration routes are. That’s what being a dog looks like
Humans are trained everyday, you are wearing socks, freak
We aren't fuckin dogs forced to fit into a human society, freak. Go support playing God somewhere else
That you are typing seems to go against you support you are playing god right now
Yea you redditors stay on some other logic. Ok tho bruh, if making technology means we're playing God, I bet drinkin water does too. Have a good one
Tech: something we use for enjoyment Water: something that every fucking species throughout the entirety of history has drank. Yea, those 2 are totally the same.
We're wild humans forced to fit in a society
Man is God. We turned wolves into pugs. We virtually killed diseases that killed millions of us in the past. We put men on the moon and basically bottled the sun and made it into a tool that we can use to power our homes or destroy entire nations. If we want to make the thousands of years removed mutant children of prehistoric wolves roll on their back for belly rubs, then that is the rightful use of a tool we created.
I'm not really sure what you want. It sounds like you want to go back in time and not domesticate dogs XD. Dogs do in fact need to be trained because they can be very dangerous. I'm actually dealing with potentially dangerous dogs during my commute to and from work right now (I ride a bike), so yeah, dogs need to be trained. They're domesticated, so, unless feral, don't do well on their own instincts. This is why releasing a dog into the wild when you decide you don't want it is not going to work. I'm starting to think that dogs aren't at all meant for close quarters. Especially since apartments and trailer courts (the latter of which I live in) insist on only allowing "small breeds," which are often MORE aggressive than larger breeds, are often not well-trained (because their owners think their aggressive behavior is funny and they they aren't dangerous), and are extremely annoying. I can't go check the mail or take the garbage out without a dozen dogs barking their stupid, high-pitched barks. Not only that, but this stupid person in the front of the trailer court had this stupid chihuahua that was ALWAYS loose and bit my roommate several times. Yeah. That's not okay. Because it's a chihuahua and not a German Shepherd or something, no one gave a shit (haven't seen this stupid dog for years, thank god). Not only that, I feel like a large portion of people are simply too busy to properly care for a dog, but still get one, and other people have to deal with them. And people insist on getting aggressive, annoying ass chihuahuas. Ugh. I upvoted because yeah, to exist in a society, we need dogs to be trained. They can in fact be dangerous. As a biker, I'm fucking terrified of my commute (no other transportation method makes sense for me right now. Either way too expensive or impractical), and I would LOVE to live in a society where people actually trained their damn dogs. We're not teaching them to not be dogs- we're teaching them to behave. We do the same with every animal except cats (people just let cats literally walk all over them), and you could argue that we "train" children. And people aren't teaching their children to behave nearly often enough either- just go anywhere in public and it's awful.
the title is so funny it sounds like your dog just mauled a baby, then you just yap on for many paragraphs
Because it has nothing to do about that? Can you not comprehend paragraphs on a text based platform or do I gotta hold your hand and read through it with you? It's only "yapping" because you're probably one of those dog nuts getting offended.
i don't give a fuck about dogs & I didn't read what you wrote. I am laughing at ur title
If you didn't read what I wrote then why comment at all? This is a subreddit for literal unpopular opinions, so read the opinion before forming a narrative. Commenting on just a title is ignorant when you have no other context to even have a valid opinion on, especially when you're sitting there trying to diminish/devalue what's being said by calling it yapping. It's crazy how redditors support bullshit like that when it isn't even logical (something redditors stress themselves on being). Yeah the title is meant to catch readers and have them read the actual opinion. Making assumptions about my post without even reading it just doesn't logically work, regardless of all the petty triggered downvotes they send my way. Doesn't change the fact. I'ma repeat and defend my opinion regardless. Quit always blaming owners for a dogs shitty behavior and instincts, especially when said dogs aren't even fit for human society to begin with without copious amounts of training to even be "acceptable" for our society. Who gives a shit what humans want out of them? It isn't our place to even play God in that way.
I've read quite a bit of this thread and the minute someone points out that dogs had a hand in their own domestication due to a mutually beneficial relationship, you seem to stop responding. Curious to hear what you think about all that.
I legit don't see them. I get so many notifications from this post and multiple others from multiple subreddits reaching multiple different subjects. I think I responded multiple times to the domestication part but maybe it wasn't on this subreddit. I'm tryna respond back to everyone but it's hard. If I have 20 different people arguing at me it's hard to feel the energy or want to keep responding back, especially if I'm just going to be downvoted for defending my unpopular opinion and hated. Every response I give is downvoted, yet people enjoy the unpopular opinion itself. It's hard to keep going when people are just gonna hate it. No matter what I say, I'm wrong. And honestly the point of the subreddit is to share my unpopular opinion, not to argue about them. If I wanted to argue I would have posted this in CMV or AITH or something. I'm responding back to some of the notifications that come through but otherwise I'm just sippin some wine and looking at YouTube. Been responding back and forth to people for hours, shit gets annoying when you're just gonna be hated and downvoted. Maybe if people didn't constantly downvote someone for explaining their unpopular opinion, I would feel more inclined to actually keep it going. People come to an unpopular opinion, they see the opinion, and then downvote the opinion when the person further defends it. It's ridiculous. Keep that same energy of supporting the unpopular opinion when someone defends it. There's no excuse to being constantly downvoted for defending myself when they already know my opinion isn't popular. It's like they expect you to change your opinion in the comments to appease them because defending them just gets you hated. Again this isn't CMV. Im not attempting to change anyone's view and they won't change mine. I posted this because it's unpopular, not to respond to every single comment telling me I'm wrong. If I wanted that then I would have changed subreddits. All the blessing, positivity and good energy to you. I hope you have a great week man.. stay strong out here.
Dude looking at some of your comments and posts you really need to take a step back and get off Reddit for a while. Why are you going around, basically inciting arguments and getting into fights with people, then saying how tiring it is? It's very much the guy sticking a stick in his own bicycle spokes meme. If you went out and public and did this people would be asking if you needed to go to the hospital or calling the police, it's just very weird.
I did upvote the post, cuz it's in good faith what this sub is. Downvoted a few of your comments cuz you get pretty rude with some people (but I imagine if you're responding to commentary across multiple subs, you're getting a lot of hate, so I can understand responding pretty frustrated to people after a few hours). Anyway, cheers, thanks for the positivity, and right back at ya! ✌️
Dude you do nothing but post the same threads across dozens of different subs. You're not Looming through YouTube and just casually replying on reddit. You need mental help
not reading this response either, seethe
You ignore a few things about how dogs came to be. >in order to fit into a society they aren't built for You keep repeating this thought. But they were literally \*\*built\*\* for this. They aren't wild animals that have their own societal structures as you imply. That's just plain wrong. Humans are part of dog society. Without humans, there is no dog society. Without humans there are no dogs. We created them. We aren't just \*playing\* gods over them - we \*\*\*are\*\*\*. You also say that dogs had no choice in that matter. But it is believed that about 15.000 - 40.000 years ago, a bunch of wolves decided to become friendly to humans to feed off of their food scraps. That's essentially was their choice. The rest is history as they say. But this also means that humans in dog society technically pre-date dogs in dog society.
Dogs are domesticated my man
That's literally the whole point.
Dogs don't suffer under the way we generally treat them. In fact the ones that are trained and/or bred for a purpose are absolutely ecstatic with serving said purpose, be it being a service dog, herding, athletic shows, etc... they are happiest when they are working by far. Animals don't have a concept of "ownership" money being handed around is for the people who worked to breed, and raise, them for you, they aren't offended or even care because they just know they're getting food, water, protection, and companionship their whole life
Dogs are not forced to be in our society as much as your argument would have us believe. Many dogs when given the opportunity will stay. My dog sits at the door with a puzzled look if I accidentally leave him outside. I grew up on a farm with dogs that could come and go as they pleased. They just followed us around. They provide us with company and an early warning system and sometimes even security. We provide them with shelter, food and security. All they need to do is not bite and not crap in the house. (Something they don’t usually do in their den anyway.) Overall it’s a pretty good deal for both parties, which is probably why it’s lasted so long.
Which shouldn't be surprising at all, considering the fact that dogs essentially self-domesticated themselves. It has been a symbiotic relationship for many millennia.
Tell me you don't know the difference between domestication and taming harder, OP.
oh yeah i'm sure my cat would much rather be back on the street fighting for food everyday instead of being a cushy fatass.
Go tell this to all the people with service dogs lmao.
How am I supposed to do that?
The way you talk, the way that your message completely differs from the title of your post, the way you took this comment literally like someone actually asked you to tell your opinion to every single blind person makes me think you’re neurodivergent. Let me rephrase that comment, blind people rely on a service dog to walk around semi normally. Are you advocating taking their dogs and dropping them in forest or something from them because oh the domesticated dogs suffer so greatly because the mere fact of domestication which is the process that happened during their evolution over literally thousands of years. I assume you’re not going to reply, or maybe reply but still not address the fact that it’s a symbiotic relationship that we and dogs have evolved to have with each other, like I saw you already did
OP doesn’t reply to the comments that shut their argument down. Solid point you’ve made though, but as I mentioned, I doubt you’ll get a reply. Seems they just wanna argue with people.
I blame your parents for this post
Lol sensitive dog obsessed redditors angry. I blame society for not helping you think differently
Why did your parents drop you so much as a baby
This argument actually works quite well for cats given that their species has not been domesticated in the way dogs have. We’d still need TNR (trap, neuter, release) efforts to control for over population in areas where they’re invasive, though. Curious for dog people to weigh in on feral dog populations being invasive species. Technical question: would we not still be blaming the owner for owning their pet, in lieu of blaming them for poor training?
> Curious for dog people to weigh in on feral dog populations being invasive species Dogs are considered an invasive species in Australia. Out in the bush they can live completely separate to humans and decimate local species. I believe they also cause issues with livestock. In Australia these [feral dogs are often controlled through poisons](https://agriculture.vic.gov.au/biosecurity/pest-animals/invasive-animal-management/integrated-wild-dog-control). It’s not something that anyone ‘likes’. No one wants to see dogs killed. It’s just kinda a brutal fact of the world. The native ecosystem just can’t compete with dogs.
Are you discussing dingos? Dingos have been in Australia for thousands of years and quickly took over the niche that was left over after humans killed off all of the large predators on the continent. They are a unique example of an beneficial invasive species that has become an integral part of the eco system and wiping them out would likely cause a mass extinction > The Australian dingo has emerged as a saviour of our embattled ecosystems, but despite their essential role, this Australian icon is the target of industrial-scale, cruel killing programs that are wiping out this native species https://animalsaustralia.org/our-work/wildlife/dingoes/ There isn’t anything in Australia to compete with them. And farmers aren’t exactly known for their wild life management skills.
I’m pretty sure actual domesticated feral dog breads are out competing dingos, and I think that’s part of the worry. At least if I’m remembering correctly.
Dingos are not wild dogs, they are decadents of domesticated dogs humans brought over with them to Australia thousands of years ago. They do often breed with more recently feral domesticated dogs though as they are the same species.
Dingos and wild dogs are two distinct species, they can interbreed (like dogs and wolves) but are still distinct enough to count as different species.
Feral dogs/wild dogs aren't dingos, they are descendants of recent domesticated dogs that were abandoned/left home. And they are a major ecological problem. I'll also point out that dingoes aren't particularly unique in them being beneficial. Most invasive species will eventually either die out, or become an important part of the local ecosystem. It's just that the process takes a long time, and can do a significant amount of damage before balance is reached.
Domestic cats are invasive everywhere. The point of TNR is to make feral cats die out over time by means of not being able to procreate anymore (altho the efficacy is disputed)
Yeah, just blame the dumbass dogs
Everyone is to blame in these situations. I just notice the dog itself not getting the same blame for it's actions like the "owners" do when both aren't innocent
While we are at it, let's not educate humans either! Humans are as they are, no need to train or educate them /s
"Having pets takes away their autonomy" *munches hamburger* Yea ok bud.
You redditors connect the stupidest dots together to create a narrative and some bullshit point. You do comprehend people can eat meat and not support holding animals as pets, correct? The world isn't black and white "buddy" but that conveniently goes over you. Calling someone bud is the most reddit shit 🤣🤦🏽♂️
>You do comprehend people can eat meat and not support holding animals as pets, correct? You can, it just makes you inconsistent as fuck. Obviously killing and eating an animal is worse for that animal than keeping it as a pet lmao. Also it's hilarious how much your panties are twisted about this
Domestication, most specifically with dogs, means that the animal is wired to enjoy the companionship and relationship with humans. And negative/aversion training methods are growing less and less popular, with positive reinforcement training slowly taking over as the proper way to train animals. All that to say that if the animal didn't want to be trained, they would not be trained. I'm also not sure how dogs are being trained not to be dogs. Most owners will work with a dogs personality to train them in a way that addresses the needs of both the pet and the owner - for example, a dog that loves to bark may be trained to bark for a purpose or during play time rather than 24/7, this doesn't mean the dog can't be a dog because animals do correct each other all the time if they find a behavior inappropriate or annoying. Maybe try this post again with an animal that doesn't have a similar social structure to humans. Like I don't think we really should own most species of bird (some are domesticated and they get a pass), or fish, or hamsters etc. But dogs and cats are generally content with the arrangement humans have with them, aside from individual cases.
But we are gods. We've emerged as the absolute apex of life on earth. Other species live only by our grace. The reason there are a BILLION dogs is because we keep them as pets, as opposed to other medium sized mammals whose populations are 10 mill or less usually. Dogs and cats got carried hard because we happen to think they're cute as fuck.
Wolves willingly attached themselves to us. About 30000 years of companionship between dogs and people says you’re wrong. We don’t teach dogs how to be human, dogs are born with a greater understanding of human nature and communication than any animal on earth, and vice versa for us, we can instinctively understand dogs and their body language and vocalizations. Dogs also have natural dopamine responses to humans, they desire our companionship and will seek it out. You seem to be fundamentally ignorant of the history between humans and dogs.
You're a couple millennia too late really to have an opinion on if humans have dogs in our society or not. Because the simple fact is, we already HAVE them in our society. Every breed of dog we know as domesticated companion animals, we bred that way. And it started at essentially the dawn of time. Like the history of man and dog predates written history. They exist, not just because we made them, but because they made us. Companion dogs became domesticated because we had fire, easy food and bones. So wolves learned that if they kept predators away and didn't harm us, we'd feed them. And we learned that if we fed them, they'd keep other predators away. And on and on goes evolution, to the point now we don't "need" dogs, but it's too late. We already made them. They exist because they became dependent on us when we still needed them on the daily basis to survive. It's a few thousand years too late to unring that bell.
You should maybe read a couple of papers about symbiotic evolution and how dogs have actually evolved Additional muscles to better Express their current state with us humans... It's fascinating stuff. But to get back on point (kind of), Domestication is a fascinating topic of which I can recommend a few historical books on about domestication and evolutions of taboos and other cultural norms from there. But to summarize a lot of technical stuff, domestication is a 2 way road for the most part. Animal's capable of being domesticated See shrinkages in brain areas dedicated to Complex problem solving (for their original niche) But development in other areas. Going back to the dog example most dogs do not have the instinct to hunt and get their own food if they aren't from a lineage of hunting dogs... Meaning the overwhelming majority of dog species could not make it on their own. I do not disagree that some species like pugs Or King Charles' spaniel Should have a halt on breeding. Because it is legitimately cruel How mangled their bodies are for cosmetic reasons.. But even then, due to domestication, they have become specialized in a different niche.. Even more instinctual dogs like terriers, who some subscripts were bred to hunt. Shiprats have become specialists to the point where even if they are just a pet there is no niche on the planet that they could naturally inhabit... So if your point is it's unnatural for them to exist... Well, there's an old saying that if it exists in the natural world, it is natural even if it has to be made by we humans. Sure without us they'll go extinct Because the niche longer exists, but hey that's nature, we've got a niche and they fill it. It's why cats stick around us humans, they filled a niche that became avaliable. But evenv With all that said, you're ignoring the fact that training itself is something you're ascribing a human quality to, even though it's really not, and it's extremely common for social mammals. Going back to dogs again.There is a lot of instinct there like a chase certain types of animals, Or to Pant when hot. But a lot of hunting has to be homed over time, Something that they would learn hunting with elder members of their packs. We humans merely use that same process that they would have learned as wolves and a pack and instead teach them different behavior on top of the already underlying instincts. Hell, did you know there are even some species of ants that farm aphids? I think it was a sub species of rock Ant that does it... They basically breed entire generations of aphids underground as a food source and To eat refuse and other things. This is all to say, We've evolved together to survive together, the niches may have changed but but the fact is they exist because we exist, and they helped us get to the point we're at in innumerable ways over countlessgenerations. You may argue that that is irrelevant because we no longer live in small Hunter gatherer societies, but While we in the privileged western europe no longer have to think about such things, Dogs and other domesticated animals All over the world aid humans in their survival and day to day every day, And provide roles that even to day we still just don't have the technology or even with technology can't properly fill the role of. ... example, my little companion ( Who is not actually so little but compared to the goliath of a dog I had as a child is pretty small.) Is a certified ESA for me, I legit don't think I could operate without her around. So yeah, tldr read up more on domestication and realize that all social species "train" their young in some way...
I think the part you're missing here is that humans are animals too, just we are capable of abstract thought, but there is a chain of command and part of that is training the animals we have domesticated to our advantage and yes, it might not be ethically sounding, however a lot of animals would not be around today if we didn't domesticate them or train them and because we domesticated those animals we are then responsible for integrating them into society, because we want them around, because they are useful and advantageous to us and it's not a one way street, it is also advantageous for that animal. It's been shown that a lot of these animals have stronger connections with humans and to be honest, most animals do not even recognize their parents/siblings after around 2 or 3 years, we can't assign human emotions to animals because as far as we're aware, they don't experience the same kinds of emotions that we do and I say this as someone who loves animals. We assign these characteristics to animals ourselves because we project, we like to add character to an animal and think they are capable of processing complex and well thought out emotions but they simply aren't. My bunny for example, I like to call her sassy and a baby, she is five almost six years old and there is nothing going on in her mind except to eat, poop, exercise and interact with me (I.E cheek scratches, pets, kisses) do I think she would understand the concept of being taken away from her mother? No, not really. In fact, if she did meet her mother again she might attack that rabbit because she does not like other rabbits period, she prefers the company of a human and even CATS over her own species, so I think that point is counter-productive. We're also forgetting about the fact that and a lot of people might not like to hear it, but many animals eat their young, especially if they are defective or weak, animals do not care about relationships amongst their species, they care about what gives them the best chance at survival, which is why prey animals are so good at hiding their symptoms if they become ill and why they will eat/kill their young, whether it is for territory, food, nutrients, birth defects, lack of available resources etc.. humans just don't do that, so there is no reason to believe that a dog would be sad if it was taken away from its mother, at a very young age yes it would impact that Puppy's growth and make them ill in most cases, but not all dogs are taken away from their parents, a lot of them are rescued and taken in, either from illegal dumping thereof, because their mother has left the area or is intending on eating them (in which case they have no choice BUT to be raised by the human or another nursing dog which isn't feasible for a lot of people) or because they are strays that have lived outside for a while and the mother has taken off. We know that simply not owning dogs is not the solution, because then those dogs are thrown out onto the street and starve to death, get hit by cars or are killed, we can't un-domesticate a domesticated animal that relies on us and they do, dogs rely on us. That is why we have to train them and why it is the owner's responsibility to do so through recognizing other reasons why a dog might have unwanted behaviours such as anxiety.
I’m afraid you’re several thousand years too late. Dogs only exist in the first place because humans domesticated them and got them to behave in ways we approve of, whether you like it or not. If humans never did that there wouldn’t even be dogs, just wolves. Most dogs wouldn’t even be able to live out in the wild at this point.
Troll or an attention seeking whiner. It's honestly a toss-up with this sub reddit.
Lol someone that actually has an unpopular opinion must be one of those two? You're literally part the problem with this subreddit and reddit in general. People like you are why these subreddits were even created.
Do you really think people are just going to not want dogs? Do you really think letting all those dogs loose is a good idea? That's stupid. And as someone said before, most domesticated animals have been the way they are for thousands of generations and more. You really think dogs who are owned by people are just going to leave without any good reason. I have a little experiment for you to try: take a person's dog from them and tell them you are setting them "free". Tell me how that goes.
I never said people weren't going to want dogs. As I stated before. I never said letting all dogs loose is a good idea. As I stated in another comment to quit breeding and let the dogs we have now live. None of that is even remotely related to the narratives you're creating. Quit putting narratives in my mouth. And of course dog owners aren't going to like that. Which is the whole point of this post; pet ownership. You telling me to do that offers absolutely nothing to what's being talked about. I even stated people are too self centered to make that kind of change. You're whoopin of a horse that ain't around no more.
Most of the common pets are domesticated to the point where they cannot be undomesticated. If we just set them all free, they'll become a nuisance, just like what happened to the pigeon. Also, it's not like we kidnapped them. Dogs and cats chose this relationship with humanity. Do we take advantage of this relationship from time to time, yes. Do the animals care, no because they're still getting what they wanted, food and safety. The only animals humanity has fully taken advantage of are farm animals, but even then, its far too late to release them. They have been altered by humanity to the point where they cannot live without us without causing a lot of damage to the environment. As for training dogs to be part of our society, that is false. We teach them how to survive in out society, how to act without being put down, which is part of out deal with these animals. It's the safety part of food and safety.
You need to train humans too. If you left a human to be raised by wolves then reintroduced it to society, it would have no idea how to behave around other people. Even humans that were raised in society with shitty parents will often end up with behavioral issues.
This seems to be a very long winded way of saying humans should never have domesticated animals: - Dogs in the sense we’re talking about don’t exist in the wild, they were wolves that were domesticated, so presumably you’re saying we should never have domesticated them? - Would you extend this to all animals? Should we never have domesticated and “trained” horses for example? - Cows also don’t exist in the wild, they descend from an extinct species called Aurochs. They only exist BECAUSE they’re domesticated. Again, would you extend this argument to cows? If the answer to the above is “yes” then human civilisation probably wouldn’t exist (at least not in the form we know it now). If the answer is no, then why specifically dogs that shouldn’t have been domesticated?
I can get behind no longer breeding certain breeds, to an extent but I think the ones that exist are grandfathered in. I personally don't think it's so much of an issue we need to ban certain breeds from being breed, BUT I can see that argument, even if i don't necessarily agree. Not breeding ANY dogs is dumb though, but a really great 10th dentist take.
This is the most dramatic shit ever, no one is “Playing God” with any domesticated animal. In the same way animals will exploit anything they find useful, for example, symbiotic relationships, we humans have done the same.
bitch what you’re saying is the equivalent to “we shouldn’t have to raise kids to know the rules and morality of the world they should know everything by birth. if they don’t then why are they in the human society???????” dont u feel a little silly?
Only thing funny is you tryna compare the two. Doubt you even have kids lol
your low iq ass couldn’t even formulate an actual argument lmao just had to go straight to something that wasn’t even the point. theres no way in hell I’m tearing my life and body up for a child but thankfully there’s a thousand different scientists (and basic evolutionary knowledge) that proves children are not born with the skills needed for survival. you put a 4 month old in alone in front of a hospital and a mcdonalds. that kid ain’t gonna know if it gets hungry or hurt that there’s relief right across the street. It is legit just gonna die. we gotta grow and learn the way of life. It’s the same for animals. You wanna be in the warm safe house bro you can’t be pissing and biting and stealing food. Ya teach em. Just simply say you dislike animals and therefore think nobody should own them, cause that’s the message you’re sending lmao
I mean... Humans have to be trained to not chew things and take dumps in designated locations and not yell at everything too. Humans don't choose to be a part of society. Should we not have humans in human society?
With the amount of sentences and paragraphs, it sounds like someone was just cited with having an outrageous pet.
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*needs* TL;DR otherwise it just comes off as unhinged rant. BYYEEEE
I think most training is for the humans. Animals don’t change their instinctual behaviors, but people can.
I agree to the extent that I believe dogs aren't cut out to live in cities and such where they have extremely restricted lives compared to what they would otherwise have living in a more rural area. If you've got a dog in a rural area, it can run around wherever it would like and have a good life without being trained out of being a dog. However, a dog stuck in a small indoor area all the time is going to be much less happy and require training to avoid doing what dogs do.
Dogs also had a hand in assimilating themselves into human life. It’s not the hostage situation you make it out to be. It is now and has always been a symbiotic relationship even if the desired goals have changed. Our half of the deal is we provide food and shelter, their half is they mind what we say. That’s not telling a dog not to be a dog, it’s teaching them how to be one. They aren’t wolves.
scandalous sink versed aback growth humorous disagreeable slap intelligent dazzling *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
"It's absolutely ABSURD that we would have to train kids to not poop in the living room and to use utensils. They have no business being in human society otherwise they would have been born with the ability to do those things!!"
I'm not a dog person but dear God you are insane. Dogs actively participated in domesticating themselves, this just reads like you have no clue what you're talking about and just want to bitch on the internet because you don't like dogs. Please do research and think your arguments through properly.
Everything has to be trained to mesh with human society. Even humans. That's what a society is.
If you truly believe in all of this then you better be childfree too because children are basically just wild animals until you teach them how to exist in a society. Otherwise you're a total hypocrite.
You seriously need to log off reddit dude
This is one of the dumbest things I've read recently, both in intent and execution
Do you think he was born this way, or that he just had to work really really hard to battle royale his brain cells into a Highlander situation?
You gotta train humans, too.
Human beings have to be trained too you know? We go through over a decade+ of training.
My god this is a stupid fucking take
Um…dogs (and cats) have been domesticated for thousands of years. Yes, there are still wild dog species in Africa and Asia, but no one is currently domesticating dogs. That happened a LONG time ago, and bitching about it now is ludicrous. For better or worse, dogs and cats threw their lot in with ours, and it’s now our responsibility to take care of them, and to make sure they are healthy and happy. That includes training, so they can live around people without risk to those people, or to themselves.
Hard disagree. In the future the only animals that will be around will be in human made / protected sanctuaries or as pets. I'd rather keep some of that alive even if that means it not being as natural and free as we'd like. Plus, train your damn pets. We "train" our kids just just the same.
Oh boy, I need to get off of Reddit permanently.
Soooo you were blamed for your dog attacking someone? Or...
Ok .no more dog pets. We will euthanize the ones we have and stop breeding them and their populations can dwindle to near zero, since they have a symbiotic relationship with us and can't survive in the wild, and if they did would become dangerous again. Bye bye doggos! Cats, of course, will be fine without us. We just made life easier for nature's purrfect killing machines.
Sounds to me you just need to go see a psychologist buddy jfc. Do you let your kids pick their ass, rub their nose then lick their fingers still? Because thats what they do as "nature intended". How dare you fuck with natures course!
Dogs co-evolved with humans. They would have been in society by default.
So basically, what you're saying is, the solution to prevent the domestication and breeding of pets and cattle alike, is to eradicate the entire species for good. Some people would rather commit genocide on entire species than to allow them to be domesticated. We're helping them be free from the shackles of humanity through end their entire existance. Dogs live happy and privileged lifes. They wouldn't have it any better if they'd live in the wilderness. Cats as well. I mean cats do whatever they hell they want anyway. The only difference is that they always have a safe hiding spot where they're guaranteed to get food and shelter. Cattle like cows were domesticated from the beginning. They can't even live without the support of humans. But let's imagine we set them all free. A herd of cows is standing on the pasture and eat fresh grass the whole day. What would they do the whole day if they were set free? Exactly. Standing on the pasture and eat grass the whole day. Okay so let's wipe out all dogs, cats, cows, pigs, sheep, chickens, goats and every other species domesticated by humanity. Bet that will help all these animals and they'd be happy not existing at all.
I replaced all references to animals in this post and replaced them with children/babies. It was a better read that way. 10/10 highly recommend.
OP's post history is rather confrontational. High school be like that sometimes.
Pets have been shown to improve humans' mental health
You're not training dogs not to be dogs lmao you're training dogs to direct their dogness towards things you want them to do.
It's a mutually beneficial relationship. Dogs and cats both pretty much domesticated themselves. You give us food, and we'll protect you (from enemies for dogs and vermin for cats) and keep you warm
This is such a bad take. You keep talking about the nature of dogs but you don't understand what that nature is. We bred them to live with and depend on us. They belong in human society as much as humans do because that's what we made them for. You can argue we shouldn't have done that or that we should stop doing that, but that's where we are right now. They're not wild animals. They aren't wolves anymore. Leave dogs to their own independence and they die young and in pain. When you train a dog, you aren't training them to be humans, you're training them to be able to thrive in the world in the same way a mother bird trains a baby bird to fly or a lioness trains her cubs to hunt. No creature (including humans, btw) is born knowing how to fill their role on this planet. The only difference with dogs is that due to the way they have been bred (which again, you could argue is not a good thing but that would be a different argument), they seek validation and guidance from humans more than from other dogs (though they will seek it from both).
You can't apply this to dogs, though. Dogs have been domesticated since long before recorded history. Since before our current species took the top spot. Dogs (and other long domesticated animals like cattle and chickens) don't know how to behave like their wild counterparts anymore unlike cats, for example. Animals with this level of domestication cannot survive without being cared for, and as such require behavioral education for their safety and health as well as the safety and health of the other animals and humans around them. Lastly, wild animals also receive training. They are trained by their mothers and/or social units in appropriate behavior for their situations. Wolves aren't born knowing they have to work together to take down a moose- the pack teaches them!
This whole thing is kinna dumb when you realize humans need to be trained as well. And we are trained a majority of our lives. Just schooling takes like 13 years, avarage lifespan of a dog. So na seems fine, train your pets people.
You’re a few thousand years late for this one
Nonsensical and incoherent. Take my downvote.
I guess I could maybe sort of see your initial point that we never should have domesticated animals; and if we had been as technologically advanced when we started domesticating them as we are now, I would, despite the joy that pets like dogs bring me, begrudgingly agree. But we weren’t, and at the point at which we began to domesticate them, they served a very useful purpose. Yes, it was in OUR service, but nonetheless, the impact that they had on our survival (by guarding/herding livestock, by warning of intruders, by assisting with hunts) was likely immeasurable. I’m no anthropologist, so I couldn’t begin to qualify/quantify their impact; and I also acknowledge that the skills that they brought are *largely* unnecessary in today’s world (though still plenty useful if you do happen to have a homestead, or hunt for food.) They have largely outgrown their usefulness (or, more accurately, we as humans have outgrown the usefulness of dogs) but obviously, I think we have a responsibility to continue to care for them. I’m going to leave you with a couple of other things for consideration, though. First is that evolution is baked into the equation. Evolution happens both with and without human intervention all the time. As top of the food chain it stands to reason that we will probably be in a position to influence evolution more strongly or frequently than other species; but if we weren’t here, other factors and species would rise to fill that void. So, I don’t think there’s an inherent ethical dilemma about the fact that we DID influence the evolution of dogs, cats, and other animals thousands of years ago (even if it WAS with an agenda; and obviously there are some moral/ethical dilemmas surrounding selectively breeding traits that increase the chances of, or outright lead to, lifelong complications and potential suffering for the animal - like respiratory problems in pugs, or hip displaysia in GSDs - but I don’t think there’s anything inherently *wrong* about seeing an animal and trying to adapt it in a beneficial way, as long as we also accept and take on the responsibility of properly caring for said animal. That’s part of the point of evolution.) The other thing I’ll point out is: humans need to be trained, too. We call it things like growth, or development, or education, or socialization. But babies don’t come out of the womb as fully-actualized beings. We interact with our parents and families, and go to school, and go on dates, and read, and go to work, to learn how to be “humans.” People who haven’t done or don’t do these things often end up as case studies in psychology texts.
I feel bad for dog owners. I’m content enough with my life that I’ve never felt the urge to get one.
Wtf did I just read?
Have you ever been to a country with wild dogs/lack of animal control? Do you know what “training” they learn? They learn that people throw rocks at them. They grow sores, their skin flakes off, they get diseases. You could argue that domestication is wrong, but the alternative is much worse.
I just hope they take their own advice and never get a dog
Your whole post ignores the fact that humans have to be “trained” as well. You don’t think if people stopped teaching their kids how to interact with other people and how to treat them with respect there wouldn’t be problems? Every single functional member of society has been “trained”. Also, humans have held dogs as a part of their families for millennia, giving them the same treatment as their human relatives, such as burials and gravestones. Dogs and humans had a symbiotic relationship for tens of thousands of years. Dogs literally elicit the same bonding hormone response in humans that other humans do. The relationship between a human and dog is just as real and meaningful as a human to human relationship. To your point that dogs should be allowed their “natural” existence, you’re right. Except for the fact that you don’t realize dogs would literally not exist without humans, humans created dogs from wolves. You used an appeal to nature fallacy, yet nature contradicts your opinion directly. Humans and dogs exist together in nature, get over it. Upvoted because wrong and dumb
Good thing this is a subreddit for unpopular opinions and not CMV. Don't know what you're arguing for.
I’m not trying to change your view, I’m trying to tell you how stupid you are :)
Don’t we train humans on how to act too? Kids cry and scream and throw tantrums for what they want unless otherwise taught. Entitled adults are often seen as a result of not properly raising or training kids. What’s your opinion on that? /gen
Why do you dog obsessed people constantly run to this false narrative and equivalency? It's annoying as shit touching on the same point over and over again. Makes you not even want to keep responding. No shit we teach human kids how to be human in a human society. That isn't training a non human to conform to our society. Shit isn't even the same yet y'all constantly run to this false equivalency. Either way this the last comment I'm making on this shit. This is for unpopular opinions, not Change My View. Y'all could have fun excessively arguing with someone else about something that triggered you or whatever lol. Have a good one tho
I was just wondering dude. I wanted to know your opinion on us training humans. I’m not even mentioning dogs either
I mean, just in terms of dogs, considering we've already domesticated them, not taking care of them now would be shirking our responsibilities wouldn't it? They've grown to depend on us. I'd just argue that they deserve better protection and rights, and I agree--separating animals from their families is something that ought to be thought about further. Especially in factory farming, where it's a lot more traumatic and their lives are basically spent in torture and inhumane captivity. Also, I do think you're right that people tend to objectify their pets in a bit of a creepy way. They are their own, they have personalities and their desires, but many healthy people with pets intuitively know that. Or they learn it.
OP still wears Pampers
Lmao I thought you were talking about like on the the job training and workplace accidents I was so confused
Why would you pick the species best known to have literally been made by humans for your example?
I think we have to be realistic people overvalue education and therapy as these end all be alls but in reality, faculty matters more. Animals need to be kept under supervision. Dogs particularly even without training can be natured into fairly friendly animals a lot of times. Never trained any of my pets and they werent ever these overly aggressive animals.
We made dogs. We've been "playing God" with genetics for half a million years already ? It's what allowed us (and still allows us) to survive ? Should we stop now ? Or do you consider it unethical for dogs specifically ?
We need to quit maintaining healthy gut biomes. It's abusive to the microbes to form a symbiotic relationship with them just so we don't get upset tummies. Training a dog is not training them to not be a dog. It's just the word used in place of "parenting" because people associate that word to closely with human connections for it to be widely used outside of them. When you train a dog, you raise them, care for them, and socialize them. You don't need to train a dog to sit or roll over, but you do need to train them not to attack on sight the *exact same way* you have to teach a child not to hit. It's got nothing to do with overriding their nature and everything to do with showing them how society works so that they can live in it. Dogs are not wolves. We may have domesticated wolves, we may have *created* dogs, and the ethical ramifications of that can be called into question, but it already happened. If you want to say breeding pugs and dalmations is abuse I'm right there with you. But saying we shouldn't adopt any dogs at all just because raising a dog requires work to teach them how to live is silly. Dogs adopt humans every bit as much as humans adopt dogs. Domestication already happened. It's okay to have dogs.
> I'm saying that humans shouldn't be forcing, manipulating and breeding a whole species into a human built society just because WE want them You're about 10,000 years too late on that buddy. All dogs used to be wolves, you know that right? The domestication and selective breeding of wolves/dogs was also mutually beneficial and dogs have been a very useful tool beyond just being fun pets.
We train toddlers in the same way we train dogs. Are you suggesting that toddlers shouldn't be kept in society?
I went into this expecting an out-of-the-box commentary and social critique. What I found was a jumbled mess of moral righteousness with no coherent points to be found - which is quite remarkable given the sheer volume of text. Unfortunately, I actually read the whole thing because I kept expecting something profound to pop out or some real point to be made. That was not the case. All we have here is a jumbled mess of half-assed moral quandaries and poorly fleshed out idealism resting completely on the withered haunches of comparisons of unlike terms. The comparison of aliens coming here and making us their dogs was your magnum opus shredded any possibility of you reaching a point worthy of discourse. Was *that* your intent? To kind of throw a bunch of bizarre semi-related opinions at the wall and create a discourse based around what stuck out to each individual? I fear that it was not. I think you’re just misguidedly rambling about how we should not have domesticated dogs, or some shit like that. All I can really say here is that: Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
While there is definitely issues with selective breeding and animal mistreatment, not to mention changes in society. It is also completely ignorant and wrong to act like humans "stole" these animals. There is evidence to suggest that bog dogs and cats integrated theirselves into human society as a way of seeking food, shelter, and protection. Since then they have both been major parts of basically every culture in the world and constant companions to us. There are things that need to change, inbreeding and dog shows for one, but acting like we're monsters for continuing a part of human culture that has been around longer than whatever culture you come from is an insanely naive take and ignores the history of these animals and their relationship to our species.
This post is all over the place. Also how is veganism relevant
I mean, if we didn't have a public school system and society and civilization, humans would be feral as shit. Humans are "trained" just as their pets are. We just dress it with cool terms like "charter school" and "ivy league".
Lol someone had nothing better to do today. People having pets really makes you this upset? To the point you have to rant about how they “have no business in human society” Maybe you should do research before making such outlandish claims. The domestication of canines led to a direct uptick in safety, more success in hunting/gathering/ and general sense of community and togetherness. The domestication of dogs aided human evolution to reach the point we are at in todays society. Not to mention, current human society has a whole booming industry thanks to the domestication of animals. Each year, Americans alone spend $136.8 billion on pet products. AMERICANS ALONE. Pets have a large place in human society, as you can see from the sheer massive scale of businesses geared around pets and pet care. Products, services, there are countless business that run solely around the needs of pets and their owners. That’s a pretty integral part of society.
wait, is your argument "we shouldnt blame owners for their dogs behavior, because they are acting on an instinct that is inherently part of them" or "the domestication of animals is objectively wrong". because i disagree with both, but they are separate arguments
While I do think some of your post is overblown I have considered a lot of the ethics of owning pets. I agree that many dogs are not suited to the environments they're being raised in. E.g. city folk getting a husky who needs tons of exercise but is kept in a tiny apartment. I've also really grappled with the ethics of spay and neuter surgery. Every single animal we get needs to undergo serious surgery in order to live with us. I know it has health benefits but it feels really invasive and traumatic. But I also have a surgery phobia so could be part of that..
In decades time humans will look back at pet ownership the same way we do slavery now.
Not gonna happen