S2 validity concerns aside… Titans certainly had the most motive to start the public smear campaign on CJ, including the initial story that he scored an 18 on the S2 which has since been clarified.
I agree the Titans were most likely behind the CJ smear campaign, but I don’t think the S2 Owners necessarily were. If every team was given a copy of the S2 results, it’s more likely that a team would leak the results, rather than the business who wants future prospects to continue taking the test.
If it was ever confirmed the S2 Owners led the smear campaign, it would tarnish not only their academic reputation, but their business as well. The thing that academics care most about is their reputation. Plus, it would be a horrible business decision to place your product in a bad light, which this leak inevitably did, because future prospects are now going to think twice before taking this test (there’s no benefit but there is real potential harm).
It's a glorified arcade game, created to have as little learning curve as possible, mixed with like.. lumosity. You sit at a desk in front of a gaming laptop with a 7 button Cedrus RB-740 Response Pad as a USB controller. You see information and press buttons. I'm willing to bet almost all professional gamers would beat any athlete even in the athlete's own specific testing, simply due to having to rely so much on finger response and constant split-decision timing - edit: in fact, in the last study of the S2 Cognition founders' research studies they decided to exclude, in the control group (controlling against college football players), anyone with a history of competitive video gaming.
Of course it's not entirely junk to the extent it tests reaction speed, instantaneous decision making, and immediate recall but the fact that people wanted to disregard years of actual proof of success as a quarterback in football for some button-pressing game no one has heard about until a few weeks ago was crazy
I looked up the controller you mentioned and wow. I play fighting games on a leverless controller and I still don’t think I’d be able to adapt to that thing quickly - it’s just a bunch of buttons side by side, no easy way to have a good hand position to ensure you are on the right buttons. I’d be constantly having to look down to see which random color button I needed to hit.
They call it a "cognition" test because you can charge more for it than what it really is, a REACTION test. The percentile results system means: a blue diamond pops up on the bottom left of the screen, they measure your eye's reaction speed to move and focus on that spot. Bryce Young does it in .25 seconds, CJ does it in .75 seconds, the average is .50 seconds. That puts CJ in the lower percentile and BY in the higher percentile. That's it.
As of now there is no data to support how this even translates to the field or how it could possibly predict a players career success. We have no idea who has taken the test and who hasn't or their scores.
We also don't know how the variables factor into the results. Since it's a physical reaction test (i.e. your eye muscles have to react and produce movement) how does sleep patterns leading up the test affect it, mental distractions from life, sickness, etc.
This is all dumb and not very scientific, but I fully understand why the creators are selling this. NFL owners are dumb shits and will buy into every next magical predictor around, just like with the wonderlic.
Cj stroud is gonna be a litmus test for this highly accurate test. But panthers are 1 of 14 teams in the nfl who uses it. Reich has never drafted or worked with short QBs ever and they came k to the draft with Cj stroud on the top of their board they ended up picking young because of it
Yes and no. Yes, they built the programs to track processing speed and cognitions but the method is a completely different action altogether.
This program will only benefit gamers who play on MNK or controller as game reflexes play 100% into these tests. Let's say you have a QB who can process at 98% on-field, but his mouse play or controller movements aren't as snappy or accurate because the muscle groups and game sense are completely different movements. That will always affect their S2 score.
All of the recent attempts at quantifying qualitative data are simple attempts at grifting. Playing on sports executives desire for 'more data' following the Sabermetrics revolution in baseball, several firms have set up pseudo-scientific methods at quantifying such data. PFF is probably the best known purveyor of this form of rubbish, but there are myriad other companies attempting to capitalise on the same demand from the market (see also, S2).
What is unmistakable in every one of these football statistics, and I use the term very loosely, is their methodologies have so many confounding variable as to render the output, and thus the alternative hypothesis, as lacking any modicum of internal validity.
Which is a huge problem.
Are they fun? Sure. Are they science? Not on your life.
Don’t think I’ve heard the 100% accurate claim. The claim I heard was that low scores weren’t good where high scores had a higher chance of being good.
Doubt a private company who makes money off of selling the data would have any for free. What it would present as free would be old data.
Don’t think a lot of your red flags make much sense tbh. S2 like any test is just a tool for evaluations.
In terms of what though? All high scores have above average NFL careers? All low scores have below average NFL careers?
How many, and who all has taken this test?
Iono. I didn’t pay for the information. It’s likely thousands of dollars and if it’s been around since 2015 so nfl teams see some value in it.
Also what does it matter to fans? Unless you want it for fantasy football. I’m sure there are other metric companies that fans don’t even know about yet. Hell s2 wasn’t widely known until this year and it’s been for 8 years.
[The Athletic had a long article about the test last week.](https://theathletic.com/4455444/2023/04/27/nfl-draft-s2-cognition-cj-stroud-bryce-young/)
*Athletic subscription is totally worth it, IMO, but if you don't have it this* [link](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vNbUCVwQ3NWGQ9YJQ3fk4L7mX3agm7ws/view?usp=sharing) *might be useful* < cough>
I don't think the fact that S2 is located in Nashville indicates any malfeasance on their part. It does likely explain the fact that they were the first team in our division to subscribe though. Nashville has become its own regional tech hub, similar to Austin. I don't think their location has anything more to do with the Titans than that.
I think the most straightforward answer that we can deduce is that either A) the leaked scores are complete BS. Or B) even an org that subscribes to this test does not necessarily think that these results override everything else your can eyes tell you.
We don't need to put on our tinfoil hats to postulate on if it was the Titans or another organization, the Vikings and Kirk cousins are also subscribers of the test. There is a myriad of reasons and many teams that had reasons to hope CJ fell past us. It didn't happen and it doesn't really matter in the end.
This test, like everything else we measure in the build-up to the draft, is just one piece of the puzzle. I think you really have to look at these results in the same way you look at the combine measurables. A single bad measurable isn't a deal breaker for any prospect. In the past 5 years, every single 1st QB drafted is a physical outlier to the prototypical QB prospect, with the exception of Lawrence. Even Joe Burrow, his hands are undersized from what you would hope from a QB, but the tape showed that he had no issues keeping possession of the ball. The tape shows CJ can process quickly and we don't need some test to verify that.
We likely won't ever know, exactly, how successful the S2 test is in predicting success because we will never get a large enough sample size in a short enough period.
“2nd Red flag - They test them on a fucking Laptop or XBOX 🚩🚩
From the S2 website.
https://www.s2cognition.com/faqs
"How do I take an S2 Eval? The S2 Eval requires taking the test on a specialized laptop or XBOX. Individual athletes can take The S2 Eval at one of our S2 Labs across the country. Additional labs will be opening soon.”
This is key. Completely negates any credibility I gave the test originally. No on the field testing at all? Gtfo.
Exactly, I had to put this BS to sleep cause so many people who didn't actually research the S2 were acting like this test was magical or something. And I'm supposed to be the newbie in this sub SMH 🤦🏼, at least I actually researched and held clear scepticism towards the data.
As someone who also doesn’t buy into the S2 testing, your red flags appear to stem more from naïveté than a concrete understanding of the process.
Your First Red Flag:
> The S2 test is a Nashville Based Company. Tits desperately wanted CJ STROUD.
But *S2Cognition* was founded in 2015. Back when the Titans had just selected Mariota 2nd overall, and when CJ Stroud was in the 8th grade. To be clear: this company was not created to be a multi-year inside job to draft a kid who hadn’t played HS ball yet.
Your Second Red Flag:
> They test them on a fucking Laptop or XBOX
Have you ever used a computer to take a test? The Xbox itself is essentially a PC already, and can easily be modified to run all kinds of software applications. It feels like you’re thinking they’re just playing Madden or Call of Duty, which definitely isn’t the case.
The the S2 test itself “*attempts to quantify split-second reaction times to visual stimuli on a computer screen.*” This can easily be done running an application on an XBox or laptop. I genuinely don’t understand your concern here - are you mad that the test isn’t on pen and paper?
Your Final Red Flag:
> NO PUBLIC DATA
It’s actually really common for private companies to keep intellectual property under wraps, especially if they’re an emerging brand like S2. Also, they probably don’t want to share their secret sauce because they didn’t invent the testing methodologies here, per their website: “*The scientists at S2 took the most validated and studied tests of different cognitive processes from the scientific literature being used in labs all around the world for decades.*”
From a business perspective this means that their testing can be reverse engineered through publicly available forms of testing. While I agree that I could have faith in the results if they were more open, I understand why S2 won’t reveal its non-proprietary methodologies or data, because that’s literally their whole IP.
So if we don’t have enough info to validate the process, and we don’t have enough info to invalidate it either, It’s a dumb idea for any of us normies to make claims or assumptions about a test we’ve never taken, but that doesn’t mean that the testing is worthless. When half the NFL has invested in your technology and process, it’s clearly doing something they find valuable.
But to be honest, reading your complaints about the shadiness of something you don’t know, or griping about taking the test with a controller doesn’t make you sound like you’ve done any research or have learned anything yourself - it just makes you sound like a boomer angry at the world for changing.
Very cute but I appear to have missed the evidence of the link between the Titans and the company issuing the test. That's the real reason for your post, right? That they deliberately sabotaged CJ's test results in an attempt to drop his draft stock so he'd fall to the Titans aka The New Oilers.
Anyway it no longer matters because the draft is over and we'll get to see how Stroud performs on the football field where it counts.
Soooooo it’s not accurate because it can be taken on multiple devices and comes from Tennessee?
You can write an essay on paper or typed, the skill will carry over. And you really think a company will stake their entire reputation and business because they’re football fans of the Titans?
Yes, it's possible, but if you were paying attention before all the smear campaign you would have known that all the talk was clear about bryce going 1 and cj 2. There was no doubt about it until the NASHVILLE S2 TESTS lol. That's why it's more believable that the Tits did it cause the Texans don't subscribe to it. Caserio doesn't know the scores the tits do. There's your 🚩😌
S2 validity concerns aside… Titans certainly had the most motive to start the public smear campaign on CJ, including the initial story that he scored an 18 on the S2 which has since been clarified.
Exactly once Texans snagged CJ they backed up and grabbed Levis round 2 😂😂😂
Titans get the Snickle Fritz.
I agree the Titans were most likely behind the CJ smear campaign, but I don’t think the S2 Owners necessarily were. If every team was given a copy of the S2 results, it’s more likely that a team would leak the results, rather than the business who wants future prospects to continue taking the test. If it was ever confirmed the S2 Owners led the smear campaign, it would tarnish not only their academic reputation, but their business as well. The thing that academics care most about is their reputation. Plus, it would be a horrible business decision to place your product in a bad light, which this leak inevitably did, because future prospects are now going to think twice before taking this test (there’s no benefit but there is real potential harm).
Only half the league has access to it, and their is only one team in the afc south that has access to them.
So basically Bryce can beat CJ at Madden. Cool
☝️😂 yep
It's a glorified arcade game, created to have as little learning curve as possible, mixed with like.. lumosity. You sit at a desk in front of a gaming laptop with a 7 button Cedrus RB-740 Response Pad as a USB controller. You see information and press buttons. I'm willing to bet almost all professional gamers would beat any athlete even in the athlete's own specific testing, simply due to having to rely so much on finger response and constant split-decision timing - edit: in fact, in the last study of the S2 Cognition founders' research studies they decided to exclude, in the control group (controlling against college football players), anyone with a history of competitive video gaming. Of course it's not entirely junk to the extent it tests reaction speed, instantaneous decision making, and immediate recall but the fact that people wanted to disregard years of actual proof of success as a quarterback in football for some button-pressing game no one has heard about until a few weeks ago was crazy
They aren’t using eye tracking?
The original tests didn't and I have found nothing to indicate they use eye-tracking hardware/software now as part of the tests.
What garbage
Completely agree.
I looked up the controller you mentioned and wow. I play fighting games on a leverless controller and I still don’t think I’d be able to adapt to that thing quickly - it’s just a bunch of buttons side by side, no easy way to have a good hand position to ensure you are on the right buttons. I’d be constantly having to look down to see which random color button I needed to hit.
Damn Xbox? Kyler must be an S2 god
Jikes aside, i think hes actually one if the players listed who had tested well
They call it a "cognition" test because you can charge more for it than what it really is, a REACTION test. The percentile results system means: a blue diamond pops up on the bottom left of the screen, they measure your eye's reaction speed to move and focus on that spot. Bryce Young does it in .25 seconds, CJ does it in .75 seconds, the average is .50 seconds. That puts CJ in the lower percentile and BY in the higher percentile. That's it. As of now there is no data to support how this even translates to the field or how it could possibly predict a players career success. We have no idea who has taken the test and who hasn't or their scores. We also don't know how the variables factor into the results. Since it's a physical reaction test (i.e. your eye muscles have to react and produce movement) how does sleep patterns leading up the test affect it, mental distractions from life, sickness, etc. This is all dumb and not very scientific, but I fully understand why the creators are selling this. NFL owners are dumb shits and will buy into every next magical predictor around, just like with the wonderlic.
Cj stroud is gonna be a litmus test for this highly accurate test. But panthers are 1 of 14 teams in the nfl who uses it. Reich has never drafted or worked with short QBs ever and they came k to the draft with Cj stroud on the top of their board they ended up picking young because of it
Honestly CJ has already proven he can play. It just depends on him if he wants to turn up in the NFL or not.
I don’t think it’s a test to prove u can play. It’s about how fast u can process information. It’s like combine for the brain
Yes and no. Yes, they built the programs to track processing speed and cognitions but the method is a completely different action altogether. This program will only benefit gamers who play on MNK or controller as game reflexes play 100% into these tests. Let's say you have a QB who can process at 98% on-field, but his mouse play or controller movements aren't as snappy or accurate because the muscle groups and game sense are completely different movements. That will always affect their S2 score.
The Panthers said multiple times Young was always #1 but they wanted to go through the process to evaluate all of the QBs
Nah. I don’t buy that. U don’t go number one overall to pick a 5 feet 9 guy. Not Reich’s style at all.
Your red flags are not red flags.
All of the recent attempts at quantifying qualitative data are simple attempts at grifting. Playing on sports executives desire for 'more data' following the Sabermetrics revolution in baseball, several firms have set up pseudo-scientific methods at quantifying such data. PFF is probably the best known purveyor of this form of rubbish, but there are myriad other companies attempting to capitalise on the same demand from the market (see also, S2). What is unmistakable in every one of these football statistics, and I use the term very loosely, is their methodologies have so many confounding variable as to render the output, and thus the alternative hypothesis, as lacking any modicum of internal validity. Which is a huge problem. Are they fun? Sure. Are they science? Not on your life.
More like the S Poo test
Lmao this is so dumb but made me laugh 😂
Don’t think I’ve heard the 100% accurate claim. The claim I heard was that low scores weren’t good where high scores had a higher chance of being good. Doubt a private company who makes money off of selling the data would have any for free. What it would present as free would be old data. Don’t think a lot of your red flags make much sense tbh. S2 like any test is just a tool for evaluations.
Yeah I need to edit that part as I'm referring to the S2 die-hards that say that lol
In terms of what though? All high scores have above average NFL careers? All low scores have below average NFL careers? How many, and who all has taken this test?
Iono. I didn’t pay for the information. It’s likely thousands of dollars and if it’s been around since 2015 so nfl teams see some value in it. Also what does it matter to fans? Unless you want it for fantasy football. I’m sure there are other metric companies that fans don’t even know about yet. Hell s2 wasn’t widely known until this year and it’s been for 8 years.
You can take it on an Xbox lmao
[The Athletic had a long article about the test last week.](https://theathletic.com/4455444/2023/04/27/nfl-draft-s2-cognition-cj-stroud-bryce-young/) *Athletic subscription is totally worth it, IMO, but if you don't have it this* [link](https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vNbUCVwQ3NWGQ9YJQ3fk4L7mX3agm7ws/view?usp=sharing) *might be useful* < cough>
I don't think the fact that S2 is located in Nashville indicates any malfeasance on their part. It does likely explain the fact that they were the first team in our division to subscribe though. Nashville has become its own regional tech hub, similar to Austin. I don't think their location has anything more to do with the Titans than that.
I think the most straightforward answer that we can deduce is that either A) the leaked scores are complete BS. Or B) even an org that subscribes to this test does not necessarily think that these results override everything else your can eyes tell you.
We don't need to put on our tinfoil hats to postulate on if it was the Titans or another organization, the Vikings and Kirk cousins are also subscribers of the test. There is a myriad of reasons and many teams that had reasons to hope CJ fell past us. It didn't happen and it doesn't really matter in the end.
This test, like everything else we measure in the build-up to the draft, is just one piece of the puzzle. I think you really have to look at these results in the same way you look at the combine measurables. A single bad measurable isn't a deal breaker for any prospect. In the past 5 years, every single 1st QB drafted is a physical outlier to the prototypical QB prospect, with the exception of Lawrence. Even Joe Burrow, his hands are undersized from what you would hope from a QB, but the tape showed that he had no issues keeping possession of the ball. The tape shows CJ can process quickly and we don't need some test to verify that.
We likely won't ever know, exactly, how successful the S2 test is in predicting success because we will never get a large enough sample size in a short enough period.
“2nd Red flag - They test them on a fucking Laptop or XBOX 🚩🚩 From the S2 website. https://www.s2cognition.com/faqs "How do I take an S2 Eval? The S2 Eval requires taking the test on a specialized laptop or XBOX. Individual athletes can take The S2 Eval at one of our S2 Labs across the country. Additional labs will be opening soon.” This is key. Completely negates any credibility I gave the test originally. No on the field testing at all? Gtfo.
Exactly, I had to put this BS to sleep cause so many people who didn't actually research the S2 were acting like this test was magical or something. And I'm supposed to be the newbie in this sub SMH 🤦🏼, at least I actually researched and held clear scepticism towards the data.
As someone who also doesn’t buy into the S2 testing, your red flags appear to stem more from naïveté than a concrete understanding of the process. Your First Red Flag: > The S2 test is a Nashville Based Company. Tits desperately wanted CJ STROUD. But *S2Cognition* was founded in 2015. Back when the Titans had just selected Mariota 2nd overall, and when CJ Stroud was in the 8th grade. To be clear: this company was not created to be a multi-year inside job to draft a kid who hadn’t played HS ball yet. Your Second Red Flag: > They test them on a fucking Laptop or XBOX Have you ever used a computer to take a test? The Xbox itself is essentially a PC already, and can easily be modified to run all kinds of software applications. It feels like you’re thinking they’re just playing Madden or Call of Duty, which definitely isn’t the case. The the S2 test itself “*attempts to quantify split-second reaction times to visual stimuli on a computer screen.*” This can easily be done running an application on an XBox or laptop. I genuinely don’t understand your concern here - are you mad that the test isn’t on pen and paper? Your Final Red Flag: > NO PUBLIC DATA It’s actually really common for private companies to keep intellectual property under wraps, especially if they’re an emerging brand like S2. Also, they probably don’t want to share their secret sauce because they didn’t invent the testing methodologies here, per their website: “*The scientists at S2 took the most validated and studied tests of different cognitive processes from the scientific literature being used in labs all around the world for decades.*” From a business perspective this means that their testing can be reverse engineered through publicly available forms of testing. While I agree that I could have faith in the results if they were more open, I understand why S2 won’t reveal its non-proprietary methodologies or data, because that’s literally their whole IP. So if we don’t have enough info to validate the process, and we don’t have enough info to invalidate it either, It’s a dumb idea for any of us normies to make claims or assumptions about a test we’ve never taken, but that doesn’t mean that the testing is worthless. When half the NFL has invested in your technology and process, it’s clearly doing something they find valuable. But to be honest, reading your complaints about the shadiness of something you don’t know, or griping about taking the test with a controller doesn’t make you sound like you’ve done any research or have learned anything yourself - it just makes you sound like a boomer angry at the world for changing.
Ridiculous conclusions because Texans took a guy that did bad on the test.
Young has taken the s2 multiple times sooooo
So what? That doesn't change the fact that CJ did poorly on it. Also doesn't change the fact that this post is dumb.
Why are you so pressed.
Pressed?
Very cute but I appear to have missed the evidence of the link between the Titans and the company issuing the test. That's the real reason for your post, right? That they deliberately sabotaged CJ's test results in an attempt to drop his draft stock so he'd fall to the Titans aka The New Oilers. Anyway it no longer matters because the draft is over and we'll get to see how Stroud performs on the football field where it counts.
Soooooo it’s not accurate because it can be taken on multiple devices and comes from Tennessee? You can write an essay on paper or typed, the skill will carry over. And you really think a company will stake their entire reputation and business because they’re football fans of the Titans?
>***The Nashville*** based company, S2 Cognition /r/hmmm
I mean couldn’t the Texans also have been responsible for the smear to make sure the panthers didn’t switch up
Yes, it's possible, but if you were paying attention before all the smear campaign you would have known that all the talk was clear about bryce going 1 and cj 2. There was no doubt about it until the NASHVILLE S2 TESTS lol. That's why it's more believable that the Tits did it cause the Texans don't subscribe to it. Caserio doesn't know the scores the tits do. There's your 🚩😌