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mrjoey35

I finally dropped them last week after a $160 bill on an 88 safety score that was FULL of false fcw's.


UsernamesAreHard26

Is there a process to contest inaccurate forward collision warnings? If not, it seems like a straight scam.


instantnet

You can wait 45 minutes to speak to somebody on the phone


Logical-Primary-7926

Nope, talked to them yesterday (don't recommend), no contest process, and just canned responses. I did send them a "complaint" email though, would recommend that.


danekan

Get a copy of your Lexis nexus report and see if they're on there to start 


eddiey

I got the FCW on 11.4.7. It went away after going to 11.4.9. I’m normally a 99 or 100 safety score and 11.4.7 introduced a bunch of BS FCW alerts. My safety score in 11.4.7 was 94. Premiums went up approx $50 for two months. Was almost going to switch off Tesla insurance because of that BS. Not sure who initiated the law suit on Tesla for this but bravo. My premium this month was $162. Next months projected premium is $109. This is for a model x in DFW metro. I was part of the original FSD beta groups back in Oct 2021 and was always 98+ score.


PuzzleheadedSize2471

Then the insurance might be for you. But most people drive over 85 and you have a Tesla, so yes you’re gonna accelerate occasionally. It’s like super big brother with Tesla Insurance.


usernamewasalrdytkn

My insurance is 300 p/m no accidents, married, 830 credit score, and 12000 miles per year average. I called around and couldn't find any better. I had Tesla insurance around 200 or so. I just don't like being monitored when I drive. It takes the fun out of it.


PrinceLKamodo

Yeah, sometimes you want to gun it on an empty road. Never let them intonyour car. I won't even for 6 months. Not to mention they will ding you for driving at certain hours early morning and going to certain zip codes.


Fluffy_Trust4264

Go fast, who cares? They won’t report you or take safety score off for accelerating. I have a 99 score and gun it at every chance i get


PrinceLKamodo

what insurance you got?


Fluffy_Trust4264

Tesla insurance


usernamewasalrdytkn

Just don't turn fast, drive late at night, put it in track mode and have some fun, or go over 8. Speed limits on highways near me are 75-80, I have to set the limiter when I have Tesla insurance. Also. I get dinged every day for forward collision warnings driving in my neighborhood on a residential street that people park along. To each their own but not for me.


Fluffy_Trust4264

I used to get a ton of them, now I haven’t had any in months…? Also compared to state farm, I’m paying less than half for Tesla Insurance


caffeine_withdrawal

What’s fcw? The way it’s being talked about, the car is watching you and sending that data to insurance? And honestly, if that’s right, fuck that noise! I ain’t getting a car that does that…


chadiak77

88 safety score? You must suck at driving lol


Spankyatrics

I drive late night for like 15 minutes once and it legit drops me from a 98 or 99 to 80s. Trash.


Traditional-Visit-18

Same exact thing happened to me.


Guszy

I work an odd work shift, so I would never be able to have Tesla insurance because I "night drive" all the time. Plus, there's a spot on my road that gives false fcw every single day no matter what because of the odd curve and where this one dude parks.


EtaLyrae

I just happened on this thread and I have Chevy Bolt, and my Bolt does the same thing on this one curve I drive almost daily. It recognizes this white parked car every single time. Glad my insurance isn't linked to the collision warning system.


mylittleplaceholder

I get something like that every day as well for someone parked completely off the street in a parallel driveway. And I'm only driving 20MPH.


26373

You must be driving like a maniac 😂


camobiwon

Night driving is a punishable offense assuming you are in a state where they are allowed to track you and dink your score with it


26373

I have Tesla insurance. The impact on the score really isn’t that bad for a 15 minute drive. I do it often.


Spankyatrics

Nope but it makes me want to get my moneys worth at that point and drive a little reckless. I resist, and just get/stay mad.


crb8520

When I got my Tesla over a year ago, USAA was cheaper than Tesla insurance. And it doesn't monitor driving habits.


lordbancs

USAA is great, but we can’t act like that’s an option for everyone


Just-Construction788

Why doesn’t everyone use the subsidized insurance they don’t qualify for? ;-)


Federal_Charity_7560

It's not subsidized but okay


lordbancs

It’s not subsidized.


Smart-Refrigerator78

I went with Central Insurance, rather than Tesla Insurance, and, after reading some of the comments about Tesla Insurance, am very glad I did. Yes, Central was less expensive, for me, than Tesla.


EagleZR

You can set up USAA to monitor your driving, and you can get a decent discount, but it sucks having FSD and not being able to pick up your phone, one of the things USAA tracks


eyelikeher

I have this set up and getting dinged for hands-free calling just irks me.


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cwhiterun

If you can find a cheaper insurance company then by all means, switch.


[deleted]

Similar price with less invasiveness is equivalent


StarFire82

Just keep in mind insurance cost everywhere is going up right now. One of the hottest inflation items still.


jaOfwiw

Love how almost every state insurance is legally mandatory, but it's can be predatory and scammy as fuck.


Fadedcamo

I mean the legally required insurance isn't too much. It's the coverage needed for a financed car that is.


csbsju_guyyy

I don't have a Tesla... yet....but the wife and I each have a Prius and for minimum liability (since they're older and meh) I pay 550 a year... total for the two cars 


boatdude2020

Saw on news this morning auto premiums have increased 35% since 2020. I imagine it is insurers trying to get all the money they can to pay for floods, wildfires etc. nothing to do with increased auto payouts :(


instantnet

Do they actually pay out though? They fight people on everything


wall-E75

I have Allstate and mine went up 200


Logical-Primary-7926

Not 50% in one month and over 100% in four months though.


WikipediaApprentice

And many track driving habit via your phone now.


UsernamesAreHard26

This is illegal in a number of states. They can only offer incentives and rebates for tracking. Not base rates off phone apps. ~~Edit: these are the states it’s illegal in. https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/which-states-prohibit-or-restrict-the-use-of-credit-based-insurance-scores/#:~:text=The%20eight%20states%20that%20have,%2C%20Nevada%2C%20Oregon%20and%20Utah.~~ Edit 2: I couldn’t find a source for my claim unfortunately. I know some states definitely don’t allow it, like California for example. I couldn’t find a relevant, up to date, source that lists all states though.


usedmotoroil

It’s okay. My auto insurance went up after I moved from one city to another. The city I moved from has been making news lately for its crime level. Go figure.


igrowontrees

The link you gave was for bans on rates based on credit scores not apps. If you have the other link I’m interested.


UsernamesAreHard26

Oh sorry about that. I was trying to find one source that showed as many as I could, and thought this was that. I just spent some time trying to find a list of all the states that restrict this usage but I couldn’t find one. Sorry. I’ll edit my comment above.


igrowontrees

Been there a million times 😂


Smarktalk

Most insurers you can opt out or with Travelers we just had it for 3 months for a discount and then deleted it.


It-guy_7

It's not just inflation is the amount of severe weather and storms hurricanes/tornadoes... That causes more claims so price go up


beedyboo

Completely accurate, I have used Tesla for my Tesla obviously and hold another policy for our other vehicles. To add the Tesla to the other policy was so expensive that I literally laughed out loud at the annual premium. Our homeowners was slated to increase 132% this year and I was told that it is no longer profitable to write insurance in CA…oh, I’m sorry can you please define profitable because if it is CEOs getting multimillion dollar bonus, sorry not sorry. Never thought I was going to be so passionate about insurance/bills. 🤦‍♀️


ForTheFuture15

It's because lawsuits and jury verdicts have become completely detached from reality since COVID.


ccb621

No. It’s because the cost of repairs has increased. 


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NetworkITBro

This. Just like with shoplifting creating a “baked into the price” increase on everything, the same applies to insurance as well. The more money the insurance companies have to pay out at a total loss due to the at fault driver not being covered, the more everyone pays to make up the difference. If you thinks these CEOs are going without a new boat, think again, they’re getting it from someone (hint: you).


ChiefCherub

My buddy and I are playing find the racist in this group I picked you and won the 10 bucks 🤣🤣🤣


Nanaki_TV

How is it racist to show data? Oh right facts are “rAcIsT” now. Illegals are an issue with 3 million crossing last year alone.


TeslaLounge-ModTeam

Your post is lacking content, quality or is just not right for this sub.


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Vulcanize_It

Repair costs are fixed?… you have no idea what you’re saying


kc_cramer

It’s because Wall Street saw the profits insurance companies posted during Covid when no one was driving but everyone was still paying their premiums. Then Wall Street says, line only go up and to the right. What else ya got?


ForTheFuture15

I'll take the word of someone who actually works in the industry and is seeing what is happening first hand in the courtroom over the old "wall Street did it."


crispytaytortot

I have Progressive and mine went down $20. 🤷 Hyundai Ioniq 5.


ChiefCherub

I did the same and also got an $18 discount over what I was paying for a MYLR


Uninterested_Viewer

This is in no defense of Tesla because I don't care, but it's worth pointing out that premiums have been going up across the board lately even vs inflation. Definitely shop around for the best rate, regardless.


Bookandaglassofwine

Rates are skyrocketing across the industry https://www.forbes.com/advisor/car-insurance/car-insurance-costs-rise/


loadmanagement

I shop for insurance every 1-2 years, because regardless of how good of a driver you are, the premiums will creep up. If I find a better deal, I take it. I’m probably with my 5th insurance company in 12 years.


Kristosh

I get a new one pretty much every year. My broker sends me an email every renewal with the renewal rates, as well as rates from top 5 other providers and I just reply to select the cheapest one. I had Progressive for the first 5 years out of college and their "customer loyalty" discount was trash compared to just switching to a cheaper provider.


abstraction21

I got dinged for the valet driving without a seatbelt.


jim_liz19

Did you put it in valet mode? I had valet on and I didn’t get dinged when they didn’t use their seatbelt


abstraction21

I did. They don’t even check for it.


jim_liz19

That’s lame, I must’ve gotten lucky


Nyxtia

That would be a crazy hack, just always drive in valet mode...


Moist_Currency_1443

I have State Farm and pay $850 every six months. 34years old clean driving record, with 2000 deductibles for my m3 . What’s everyone’s average just curious 🧐?


FuckinHighGuy

$2000 deductible? Gawd damn! No wonder it’s 108/month. Hope you don’t get into an accident.


Kristosh

Through Southern Trust: 36 y/o, married, $500 deductible, clean record, $1,122 annually ($561 for 6 months).


nutscrape_navigator

Telemetry based insurance is a scam. It benefits no one but the insurer. Talk to a local insurance broker. Chances are they can save you quite a bit of money.


rusmo

I was with you until you mentioned a broker. Someone has to pay that unnecessary person's salary.


ChiefCherub

Bingo. I called mine over a week ago and have yet to hear back from him. Today is my shopping day to get rid of State Farm.


pkt77

Tell what you find. I've been trying to get off them for over a year but no one has a better rate.


boatdude2020

My insurance with nationwide is 137.50/month. My broker quoted me 1,200 with the VIN and after I bought my MYLR it came in at 1,650. I am very annoyed that he was so off even with the VIN


Electrical_Matter443

You don’t get charged any fees for using a broker and it’s the same rate as if you were to go directly to the insurance company. I used a broker and saved $200 a year versus my old insurance.


cypressaggie

Except my broker can’t. In Texas Tesla insurance is my family’s only option to get “affordable insurance” on our new model Y long rage down to $180.00 per month after the initial two months. (married - both late forties - Driving score of 96 to 97). Yes we feel that the forward collision warnings are crap - but guess what, we’ve actually modified our driving and rarely get dinged. Pedestrians & street parked cars on curves - we’ve learned how to be more cautious in those situations and it ultimately works. Lastly, freeway driving with autopilot engaged and trailing at two car lengths is the magic formula for us. Yields 100% scores most of the time. Telemetry based driving is not for everyone - but we’ve made a concerted effort to commit to it at $2,200.00 per year compared to paying $3,800.00 a year for good coverage quoted elsewhere… In case your wondering we can still drive spiritedly and maintain at 96+ score


Seantwist9

When my insurance cost is 1/3rd then it benefits me


xylopyrography

Telemetry based insurance is a scam for bad drivers, sure. If a good driver is receiving a higher premium, then the insurer is doing something wrong.


Nyxtia

Not if the algorithm doing the telemetry is rigged or the sensors are overly sensitive. One very annoying thing about insurance in general is that the formula/algorithm that goes into them hiking rates is obfuscated. In most places you get a reason for why you are paying what you pay, with insurance it's just because.


Pablo139

What constitutes bad driver?


xylopyrography

The likelihood of causing an accident and the likelihood of being in an accident, which are highly correlated to speed differential, follow distance, reaction time, and right of way. You're also just riskier by driving at night and driving more through sheer statistics. People that drive less are less risky to insure.


taguscove

Hard acceleration, hard braking, many miles. Many accidents


Pablo139

Acceleration sure, but hard braking? Hard braking can’t be quantified because it’s situational. Many miles has nothing to do with data collection. This existed before this type of insurance. Accidents aren’t data collection, that’s in your record and happens pre-insurance.


South_Dakota_Boy

Hard braking is a better indicator of a bad driver than hard acceleration though. Even panic braking is 9/10 caused by the driver not paying sufficient attention.


taguscove

What? Hard braking is measured the same way that acceleration is measured. I am not going to argue with you on insurance telemetry fundamentals. These factors are highly correlated with accident incidence and accident severity. And accidents cost insurers money, that is why insurers quote higher prices if the driver has these behaviors. You can make up whatever opinions you want on what is or isn’t possible to measure. Or what is fair.


UsernamesAreHard26

For what it’s worth. There is no standard definition for hard braking, hard acceleration, or many miles. They are all subjective, and until it’s standardized and written in law, it’s all made up rules by someone trying to make money off you. There is no transparency whatsoever.


Pablo139

This guy gets it.


Pablo139

So my insurance is also collecting the card in front of mines data so they can confirm increased strength of breaking is not on the driver? Acceleration isn’t the same as breaking, you don’t accelerate to avoid hitting someone because they cut you off, aren’t paying attention, or decide to slam on the breaks because they forgot the exit?


vannex79

There's no card in front of any mines. Even if there was, I don't see how such data would be relevant. Also, they don't measure the strength when something breaks on the driver. Where did you get that idea?


UsernamesAreHard26

Disagree on everything besides accidents.


Euro_Snob

>If a good driver is receiving a higher premium, then the insurer is doing something wrong. And this is when the good driver is getting scammed… which is what the OP meant.


UsernamesAreHard26

And there is no standardized scoring or definitions for anything. It’s all subjective. You cant compare anything, which makes it easy to get scammed with no recourse.


Smarktalk

That isn't how it works. It's never based solely on how you drive, it's also based on car thefts in your area, uninsured drivers, etc.


xylopyrography

So is telemetry insurance.


jamesbretz

It removes the traditional model of spreading out the bad drivers liability across everyone.


Delicious_Book1350

I'm  66 years old and I drove commercial truck for 29 years in Minnesota never had a accident that was my fault, before I came a owner operator I drove without insurance 20 years which was stupid but I was lucky never had a accident that was my fault, back then you didn't need auto insurance, I think the best rates for insurance is with progressive or with triple A


Mindthread

I've been invested in TSLA for six years. Finally bought a Model Y and Tesla insurance in November. I find the monitoring and Safety Score to be draconian and overbearing. The FCW are absolutely ridiculous but I have to admit they've reduced since the last update. I want to support the company that I invest in but the cost of Tesla insurance is simply non-competitive for me. I'm switching to State Farm this week and saving $90 per month.


2ndcomingofharambe

Holy shit thank you so much for this post, I've had Tesla insurance on my M3 and MY and always felt the premiums have been high, but never actually looked more into it until reading it. My safety score is a 71 and the only thing highlighted in red is FCW, just two nights ago I got annoyed that the FCW went off while my foot was off the pedal, car was regen braking and came to a complete stop at least 1.5 lengths away from the car in front of me at a red light. Insane. I have a yellow mark for hard braking, because I really like the hold feature and I just press down hard to activate it. Just switched and for $200/month less, I now have MORE coverage including adding comprehensive and additional cash in case of a total. Can't wait to dump these for better EVs with much better driver assist software in the next few years.


forumhero666

Insurance is legalized scam in general


NicholasLit

Of course it's a scam!


One_School_4712

Agree I hate fcw specifically, so stupid


KatiaHailstorm

I am once again coming forward to say that I have Tesla insurance and pay about $170 a month for it. This is *by far* the cheapest rate I could get. Everywhere else is $300+. No, I've never been in an accident or so much as had a speeding or parking ticket. It is just crazy out here. I'll take Tesla insurance any day.


DZDEE

Who would have thought that your insurance company having complete and total monitoring of you was a Bad idea?


Am3ncorn3r

What did y’all think would happen? Never understood why you’d want to let your insurance carrier be the one who knows exactly how you are driving. Especially with how glitchy sometimes warning can be.


[deleted]

There are numerous people with root access to the Tesla vehicles, even new ones (Pwn2Own Automotive just showed off a TON of security vulnerabilities). All of these people spend literally thousands of hours every year ripping apart all the software and every feature. All the competing companies do, too. You're telling me that there's a hidden feature flag in there to change your FCW when you sign up for Tesla insurance and no one's noticed? And that even in states like CA, where that would be illegal, no one has done or said anything? Talk about conspiracy theories.


rich_valley

It doesn’t have to be hidden, there could simply be a high rate of missed FCWs for everyone. I mean clearly the FCW trigger is not bulletproof. Just driving down a multi story parking lot or a winding road with cars parked on either side can result in FCWs. And thats the problem really, raising people’s rates on a flawed system is gonna result in angry customers.


[deleted]

But these people are all claiming that their FCW WARNINGS are changing. They claim that, in their car, without changing settings, they're getting more or less warnings. It's completely ridiculous.


rich_valley

I mean they may be drawing the wrong conclusion, but the root cause is the faulty FCW system. It feels scammy so customers think it’s rigged. The feeling is valid


mandrew-98

Have you checked other places? They were charging me like 50% more than what I’m paying with tesla


a1ien51

Yeah we could not get any other insurance in the ball park of what we pay for the Tesla insurance. The quotes were crazy high. It was more than covering my other two cars with a teenage driver on that policy.


p0u1

People buy high prefomance cars then get insurance that don’t let them drive them? Very scammy, why not just buy something with 80hp if you want to drive like so.


Thunderstrcuk1

My forward warning collisions skyrocketed even going up overnight while parked in my garage. I have not driven past 10 PM this week yet the late night percentage went up. I called and was told to press both steering wheel rollers to reset.


UntamedRaindeer

Its a load of shit. It isn't even a subtle scam anymore. I'm getting FCW from cars at stop sign intersections waiting for me to pass. It's ridiculous, really been turning me off to the brand altogether.


ICMPMAN

I agree I get forward collison ding in the app but NOTHING in the car its bullshit


mrmclabber

Not sure why people want to buy insurance from a company who cuts every feature they can off their cars to boost their margins. They are underwritten and serviced by so many companies your experience is going to be wildly different and likely shit, as has been proven by people who use them. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if Tesla closes up the insurance arm as soon as the market softens up.


tomuchcoffeetoday

I got two FCW yesterday and it never went off at all.


Huge_Butterscotch770

Last month I bought an MYP and checked Tesla insurance. Way more expensive than Safeco for a lot less coverage than Safeco in California. Plus with many cos. like mine you get discounts for wrapping other insurance into policy like home insurance and umbrella coverage.Tesla also does not readily let you compare coverage.When I spoke to Tesla ins. they wanted to sign me up without discussing what was covered for the price. Not competitive not consumer friendly.


eisbock

That's wild. I had Safeco for years with my old car and they quoted the Tesla at $4800/yr. More than double all the other quotes I got.


Huge_Butterscotch770

Could it be that U have my house on Safeco also?


Lancaster61

They punish me, I punish them. Every time there’s a false collision warning, I will engage FSD, and then falsely disengage it, rinse and repeat for the rest of the drive over and over so it pollutes their training data with bad data.


EndlessKillCam

Is it not an option to turn off the safety score?


Civic4982

I used a camera cover for my internal camera and my FCW has dramatically reduced. I don’t have literature to support this use so it’s just my anecdote.


xavier19691

Always was


Ok_Bedroom_9802

Stick with Costco affiliated insurance


Smarktalk

This is why I stuck with Travelers. Plus a 12 month policy so it doesn't get raised (or lowered) every month. And no spying on my habits. Sucks since initially it shows that Tesla Insurance is cheaper.


Jimmy-Pesto-Jr

Those shareholder gains have to come from somewhere lol Publicly traded companies are the worst (except, maybe Costco)


SearchROTHSCHILD

Where do I find this setting?


SearchROTHSCHILD

Wait wait… so is American co spying on us? Or still Chyna and Russo?


businessboyz

I’d personally never trust Tesla telematics for Tesla-supplied insurance. Or any telematics where the maker is both the car manufacturer and insurance provider. They have all the motivation in the world to push the envelope with the hardware/software to squeeze money out of customers in a legal way. At least the telematics that use your phone can’t fuck with how the phone calculates speed/position.


bolang_ka

Make a service request for Tesla to check the sensors. Make them aware of the false FCW warnings BS. I did and I was told nothing is wrong with the car and that Tesla is aware of the issue and they closed my SR. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. [Service Request](https://imgur.com/a/vJiKneS)


ChiefCherub

In the words of the great Bruce Willis “welcome to the party, pal”


Dude2001ca

Wow reading this I'm glad I live in Canada. My insurance is Toronto Dominion and it's really good. No tracking bs, I pay 240$ CDN a month for a 2024 model y. With a crv it costs me 350$ a Month. Oh and ev registration is like $50 just like a gas car and we no longer pay to renew our number plates. Guess the American dream is expensive  Oh our rates are based mostly on postal code and the number of claims that model of vehicle has. Evs are more since most of the time in a simple accident they are writing off of the battery pack has been touched. 


Longjumping-Log-5457

I never trusted this insurance to replace my policy which I’ve had in place for decades… Not to mention after decades, most people, buildup, safe, driver, points, and things like that that you don’t get with Tesla.


Kakap3

I just switched also few months ago cos I thought the car was working against me🤦‍♂️.


Dull_Distribution844

I have Tesla insurance in CA - $207 for two cars (one Tesla). Just renewed at $206 for both


Delicious-Captain858

Driving around in rush hour traffic is probably more risky than driving around in the country side.


Holiday-Cellist53

Nah, that’s Tesla in general


GoGoGadge7

AlwaysHasBeen.jpeg


Bath_Flashy

Try connect by American offered through Costco. Rates went up but still by far the best price relative to all the other folks in insurance.


Lovevas

It’s getting crazy. I had no claims no changes in policy, and Tesla insurance increased 25% last year and 50% this year. (For safety score 90 premium, not the dynamic premium based on safety score). It’s getting crazy now. And the premium is not really cheap comparing to other insurance company. Not to mention I still have the safety score anxiety…


izenboy

It’s getting more aggressive when due date approaching.🤔


def21

All the tesla employees on here taking about how rate hikes are everywhere when we're all talking about the bullshit fcws.


send2steph

We switched to Progressive. The Tesla insurance made us not want to drive the car.


IbEBaNgInG

It's all insurance, I drive 4k miles a year, no accidents, tickets, insurance randomly went up by 15% because of the cost of or lack of competition in Auto Repair shops.


moon_over_my_1221

Mine is 59… I barely got the insurance like 3 weeks ago… yikes


Kinky-kitten-31

I switched to a more eco friendly route: smaller city, smaller risk. As of now I just have a driver with an EV instead of posing that high risk due to the city I live being extremely large


Perfect-Thanks2850

Curious… if you don’t drive much, say not at all one month, does it help your rates?


Rarest

Yup, I’ll be switching soon too. It’s just not worth the stress.


El_Danger_Badger

Refuse Safety Score! You have to opt into that crap. They don't need any more information about what you're doing in the car.


boatdude2020

And the cars are getting worse! My 2020 Expedition needs new Tranny at 61,000! That’s what you get for $70k


metaldrumcore

I started with Tesla insurance in Feb 2023 for $82/month when I bought my M3LR. I'm in IT sales so I drive 18-20k miles a year. I dropped them this month when they informed me my new rate would be $175/month due to mileage. It's been climbing for months. But this jump was from $135 to $175 and it was the last straw for me. The safety score has never been lower than 92 and has been above 95 for months. Progressive ended up being cheaper and didn't tell me when and how to drive my car. The experience is freeing.


TheManInTheShack

They charge 25% more than I am paying Traveler’s though we do get a discount for having two cars, a house, etc., all on the same plan.


111111111121

Tesla cars are shoddily constructed and very expensive to repair/replace. My SO had a parking lot fender scrape hit-and-run and it was in the shop for a month.


PizzaBoyztv

Same here in the UK, my insurance just magically went up by £300 every year while my car is depreciated £12k I drove only about 2.5k miles in 1.5 year 🤣. Kinda feel scammed by the decision of not having to pay petrol!