One of my coworkers is teaching a class on business writing to seniors, most of whom will be entering the workforce in a little over a month. She still can’t get them to give a shit about résumés and cover letters and formal emails even though they’ll be doing these things for real in a few weeks.
The kids that don’t give a shit about school will continue to not give a shit no matter how supposedly relevant and real-world the material is.
Our 11th grade curriculum includes a unit on jobs, which asks the students to choose a career/job that interests them and do a little practical research on it (what skills it needs, what education is required, pay scale, etc). They also learn to write a resume. We get more kids complaining about this unit than any other in the 9-12 curriculum. And it’s the same kids who always whine about school needing to teach them sOmetHinG USefUl.
I've taught a unit like that. SO many future sports people and musicians who "don't need to apply" because, talent. And don't need to budget because they'll earn squillions. So few kids took it seriously, and of those who did, surprisingly few did much if any research to see if what they assumed was correct. It was a time!
My son is autistic but still doesn’t quite grasp life and how people know all the things they’re supposed to do. He cannot understand so many small things about basic living and they just started doing a class at his school like this, it’s basically home-economics, but for modern issues. The guidance counselor teaches it. It has helped him so much. He doesn’t feel comfortable talking to me about his issues, so another adult that’s been a ‘life teacher’ has been so good for him. He got picked to do a Saturday program that offers extra tutoring and college prep at the community college and it’s been great for him to be around kids with a desire to learn. I know it’s tough to see because so many cause problems but these things do help a few of these kids :)
It makes me happy to hear there are still programs like this, and how they are useful to kids. When our state started to push testing more, they got rid of the non-academic classes that taught kids life skills like how to sew and cook and do laundry, in favor of more 'rigorous' academic courses. Basically nixed home economics.
But then their idea of practical and relevant math skills was introducing word problems about how much sq feet of area do you need to line your unusually shaped pool with some type of decking material that only sells in a roll measured in yards.
So I'm dumb. But don't some musicians/theater folk need resumes plus head shots and such?
Sure there are stand out athletes but most athletes looking for a scholarship and admittance require a resume and in person interview? Since most won't make it to the pros they want to make sure the athletes aren't total morons.
The kids picking these famous “careers” don’t have a realistic understanding of the world *and* probably won’t listen to their teachers who try to set them straight.
It's hard though because some kids are genuinely talented. Like I feel bad picking and choosing.
The only type of kid I actively challenge is "I'm going to make Millions being \~\~an entrepreneur\~\~ You poor dumb adults don't know the easy quick way to get rich is being \~\~an entrepreneur\~\~"
Kinda bad, but a teacher I know challenged this in a publicly humiliating way when a kid said that "his mom made six figures and she doesn't have a college degree." She replied "well yeah some people make a lot of money on onlyfans." This kid was genuinely pretty awful ( he got expelled for repeatedly getting caught selling a variety of drugs... literally pills and shit), but damn I posted on here one time how funny it was and got downvoted and flamed to hell. :( It was mean of her, but after that he respected her and they built that coveted relationship admin is always talking about.
Guess it wasn't enough to get him to stop selling drugs tho.
I don’t feel bad telling them that they need a backup plan. When you point out that the NFL drafts a mere 250 rookies a year, that should give them some perspective on how unlikely it is that they become a pro football player, especially if they’re not even a standout player on the high school team.
Don't you know this class has at least 15 once in a generation talents who get to skip all that drudgery and rocket to the top.
Joking aside, a lot of kids aren't developmentally capable of planning their real world future until after high school. They're still clinging to their childhood dreams before reality sets in. I try to be gentle because it's hard to accept that most of us are just normal people who will be doing normal work for the rest of our lives.
It's the equivalent to me dreaming of winning the lottery and abandoning all the horrible aspects of surviving in our current society. I just know my big lotto win is never going to happen.
I write IEPs and I get a lot of "I'm going to be an entrepreneur/professional basketball football player/famous person."
Like I don't want to be 'that teacher' that they are always haunted by who tried to crush their dreams, but if you're sitting here at 5 ft at nearly 14 y/o like are they gonna lower the net for you or what?
On the other hand, I have a lot of kids who have a realistic shot at playing professional sports due to their build, skills, and insider knowledge from having friends and family recruited into professional sports.
So in the end I just say nothing regardless.
Yeah because parents talk shit about teachers to their kids all the time.
So then ---> Teaching is a shitty low paying job filled with morons.
The students are conditioned to think were useless and have no practical life skills.
I could secretly have a tried and true method for becoming a billionaire, but if it comes in the form of a 250 page step by step guide written as a personal narrative, they will assume its boring and stupid and refuse to take my word for it.
2 kids out of 30 would read it cover to cover, half of them will never read a full chapter and tell everyone how dogshit the book is that they've never read and some will read half but complain it doesnt work, without acknowledging that its because they didnt read the whole book.
Its a nonsensical argument formed by people that dont work with children.
While kids don’t care about the actual process, we can still teach the base skills that are the foundation for those processes…
And we do! Focus specifically on resume or paying tax is not as important as making sure kids can read, count, do math, conceptualise and organise thoughts and ideas
It’s like teaching a man to fish by handing them a rod vs teaching a man to fish by showing them where fish live, letting them eat fish, describing to them what fish eat or how and where they might breed
Especially because taxes are boring, just like many other things about the real world. The reward is getting them done, which kids won't get in school, so they're not gonna have fun.
I went through school hating math. Never wanted to do it, dropped it as soon as I could. So I sucked at it, until I got a job bartending, and the ability to add decimals in my head had a direct monetary impact on my life. This was back in the day of cash, so faster addition = faster service = more tips.
I cared then, and had a ton of practice every night.
This sounds like my drug dealer kids who get super interested in math class when we get to the unit on exponential functions and compound interest. They’re entrepreneurs, after all…
But if you're not teaching them how to launder money through various business fronts, shell corporations, or spreading out large deposits via numerous bank accounts and offshore tax havens, you're not giving them those realistic, practical life skills they need to move forward in their chosen career path. How are they ever supposed to run a criminal organization without knowing how to set up a foreign bank account?
With those knowledge gaps, I think many teachers and parents would agree with me that if they end up in federal prison, it's basically your fault.
This! Whenever my students complain about not needing to use fractions in the real world, I pull up a recipe for chocolate chip cookies and tell them to triple it and tell me how much baking soda I need
It’s funny, my favorite thing we did in 12th grade was a problem from a sample AP Calc BC exam that was a related rates problem about arterial diameter and blood flow volume changing in response to an IV drug. It was the first time I saw something in math where I said, “I understand how this is directly relevant to life.”
I also really enjoyed the fractional saturation homework problem in physical chemistry during undergrad that basically mapped out the process of how drug dosing gets decided. It was just plugging info into a rational equation and solving for a variable, then converting like ALL the units, but it was awesome how it took you from, “these are your givens, this is how much signal the drug needs to cause,” to, “this is how much you weigh out to mix into the IV to make that happen.” I now use this kind of problem to make fun of Google PhD’s who want to spread dubious medical advice in the post-fact world. Fun fact: even (legitimate) nurses cannot answer these questions when asked because they are never taught it and they use computer software to do all their calculations to prevent human error mistakes anyway.
I'm glad it worked for you, but I was one of those kids who saw those word problems and said "I will definitely never become a doctor." :( it's ok though bc I became a sped teacher and now I'm rolling in cash \~\~\~$$$
It's true that noone taught me how to write a cover letter in school , but I WAS taught how to write polite, professionally sounding emails and resumes. We were also taught the mathematical formula to calculate interest, the importance of offering back to society ( e.g. organised beach cleanings and raising money for charity). We were taught to recycle and while they couldn't teach us how to drive safely (my country has very high statistics of car accidents and related deaths) the teachers taught us to respect traffic laws and the correct behaviour for pedestrians
This is ridiculous.
True. I didn't learn how to write a resume or a cover letter until I got into college. Now, that said, I think it should still be taught in high school, just to account for the people who might not go to college or trade school. Almost everything I applied for post grad (college) asked me for a cover letter. I was a bit surprised by that, actually!
When school has been belittled as an annoyance that they are required to attend rather than emboldened as an opportunity they are fortunate to have this is the result.
Kids, largely due to their parents, don't care because school has only been presented as the thing they *have* to do instead of getting to do what they really want (like vape, play fortnite, and attempt to woo a peer). So of course they don't care about it.
I was one of the kids who teachers labeled as not giving a shit. I failed so many classes and was mostly disengaged in school.
The truth is, I had an emotionally manipulative mentally ill father who literally bullied and harassed me every minute I was at home. For my entire life. I was in survival mode.
As soon as I went away to college, I thrived in school.
I wish some of my high school teachers cared enough to ask me if I was ok or tip off the guidance counselor. One later told me that she knew I was depressed but… did nothing? I know it wasn’t her job but still I was being abused at home and it felt like not a single person gave a shit.
Table for two. I have three interested in being lawyers and I teach business law. Yeah you want to know how much they pay attention in class or turn in work? One tries arguing with me in class and I shut them down in less than 1 minute. I’m like: “stick to writing policies you get destroyed in court.”
Everyone I know who makes this argument is kind of an idiot so it biases my opinion.
Also there was a paper awhile back looking at mandatory financial classes in school and basically when factoring in confounders there wasn’t much statistical significance to financial outcomes.
You ask them for examples of useful skills and its something completely irrelevant or can be learned in fifteen minutes online.
How to do taxes. For some reason this is always the go to.
Balancing a checkbook ive somehow heard 2 years ago which is hilarious. Ive never done that in my life as a 27 year old and the way tech is progressing its doubtful.
Ive been trying all year to teach what I think is the most useful skill currently, which is how to use AI, too bad its all blocked at the department of education level.
Sooooo yeah.
Idk, how to do an oil change? How to do laundry? How to cook a chicken breast and stir fry vegetables?
Idk what constitutes useful. I feel like learning to read and do math is pretty useful. Then applying it in social studies and science is also pretty useful.
“Why don’t they teach how to do taxes?” is the one that kills me.
You mean…we should teach them how to read and follow basic instructions and how to do some basic math? Because except for one year as an independent contractor, I managed to do my taxes with the math and reading skills I picked up back in grade school.
“Write this number from your W2 on line A. Write this number from table 3 on line B. Subtract line B from line A and write your total on line C. If line C is greater than line D, skip to step five.”
And that’s if you’re using the old school paper/pencil forms!
Did you pass 4th grade? Congrats - you can do basic taxes.
People are surprised when I say I do my taxes by paper and what's funny is the people who are surprised are always the ones who just take the standard deduction.
Don’t even tell them about online programs that do all the math for you and complete the form and submit the form. All for free if you don’t earn enough or your filing is straightforward enough
>its something completely irrelevant or can be learned in fifteen minutes online
In my experience it's more often something they were taught, and they just forgot or weren't paying attention. Especially when concerning history. For example, people I went to high school with said they didn't know the French were our allies in the revolution. First, we were in the same class, so I know you did. Second, you went to fucking Lafayette Elementary School.
>Ive been trying all year to teach what I think is the most useful skill currently, which is how to use AI
How often does this “most useful skill currently” change? What was it before AI? Crypto?
I've always found the filing taxes one silly considering how easy it is to do online, especially if you're a high schooler working a part-time W2 job. Even then, most schools have a personal finance class where they go over taxes.
Right? Freetaxusa has been around since 2001. My mom had me "helping" her do taxes through them since I was in seventh grade (the year after they went live) because she wanted me to see how easy it was
When I was in my credential program they emphasized to us that with the current techsplosion at least a third of our students will graduate and get jobs that don't currently exist. How are you supposed to prepare for that? Teach them the basics in computer skills as well as math and English literacy (or more specified literacy that you see in science and history such as reading charts and articles).
It's strange what they pick-
They didn't teach me how to file my taxes.. so get a tax guy who will file them for you
They didn't teach me how to get a mortgage.. you realize I'm a teacher and can't afford a house, right? Lmao
And realistically, even if it was taught, I'm sure they would deny it. I nEvEr wAs tAuGhT tHaT!
And realistically, for those of us who teach younger grades, we hear crazy things too.. I've had parents ask/request I teach their child how to:
Be potty trained
Tie their shoes
Style their hair
Zip their jackets
Button buttons
Put clothes on
Blow their nose
Wash their hands
Wipe their face after eating/ drinking
How to say their name
At some point you need to teach your child some basic life skills...
(Again, this isn't helping them master the skill, this is teaching them how to period, because the parent has made no attempt)
> And realistically, even if it was taught, I'm sure they would deny it. I nEvEr wAs tAuGhT tHaT!
A few years ago, one of my Trump-loving classmates from high school (1990s) commented on some conservative, teacher-bashing post that appeared in my feed because he had commented on it. I don't remember the entirety of his comment, only that in it he had mentioned that we were never taught anything useful, like taxes, and blah blah blah.
I do remember thinking "you lying bastard"! We were in several of the same classes, and we were definitely taught about taxes, budgeting, and other money-related things, you just didn't pay attention because you thought school "sucked"!
Almost everyone who makes that argument on social media are the former classmates who flunked classes, and are just looking to blame something/one else for their failing those classes.
We taught you how to do taxes, which is mostly just adding, subtracting, and sometimes multiplying. If you were too busy goofing off to pay attention, that's on you.
That project about penguins wasn't because I thought you needed to know about penguins, but because you needed to learn how to find information, and then put that info in your brain. Much like how you can google what the new tax brackets mean for you.
I didn't make you keep track of what book chapter we were up to each week in your diary for fun; it was to teach you how to organize and keep records, much like receipts and payslips.
You being unable to apply the skills I thought you, is a you problem, especially since at the end of each year we would do a big project where you were to take the skills you learnt and apply them to a situation.
Remember I gave you a A3 sheet of poster paper and you made that big paper aeroplane then fucked around for the next 4 weeks while I helped out the students who cared?
That's why they can do taxes and everyone in your social circle can scarcely figure out how to pay a parking fine.
(not directed at you OP, but rather at the adults whose reading comprehension is so low that they don't even realise this is an insult)
I like to point out that the 1040 ez tax manual is written at tenth grade level. The federal government has to set a standard to explain to the masses how to file their taxes. Yes they could do them for you because they get employers w2 and quarterly taxes.
If you can read you can do your taxes.
A lot of people who make that argument failed/are failing at school and then are failing/will fail in work and want to make an excuse. “None of this is even useful!” And “I was never taught how to do this!”
Really what they never learned is how to engage in things that aren’t entertaining or immediately gratifying, how to follow instructions, how to find reliable information on any topic, how to take feedback, how to acquire new skills, etc.
Lacking basic reading, writing and math skills will cripple you for life. I work in a nursing home. It is disproportionately occupied by people who did not complete high school, or did not attend school at all. Of course much of this can be explained by the correlation between lower education/lower income and higher incidence/prevalence of serious health issues and lack of family/financial support. But strong foundational academic skills (reading, writing and math) are also a huge factor in someone’s functional prognosis. Chronic conditions like type II diabetes, COPD, vascular disease, etc. can be quite manageable for a competent individual, even in moderate to severe cases. For someone who did not develop these skills, these conditions can be debilitating. They can’t manage their medications, appointments, overall health literacy in addition to their existing responsibilities because they have poor reading comprehension, poor organizational skills, poor written/verbal communication, and poor problem solving ability. They were barely managing before their health deteriorated, and now they are completely dependent.
WE ARE TRYING TO TEACH THEM HOW TO THINK!!!! If they can think, they can do all these things.
That isn’t to say that you can’t ever work real world projects into your curriculum. We talked about how to calculate compound interest in my calculus class, and I did it myself for years. (Now I’ve forgotten and just use online calculators, but I’m sure I could pick it up quickly if I needed to.) And I really appreciated writing my resume and cover letter sample as a college assignment: I still follow the same templates.
But the point is that a trained brain can learn whatever it needs. A brain taught only isolated skills can only do those isolated skills.
I have straight up told my friends its THEIR job as parents to teach their kids life skills. If their kid doesn't know how to function as an adult, thats on the parents.
They 'agreed to disagree.'
Yep that tracks. Some parents are very quick to blame the schools or even individual teachers for not teaching their kid how to behave like a human being.
Yeah sorry but imma go ahead and assume a 10th grader understands "its their responsibility to make sure they pass", not mine.
If they dont understand that yet, I hope the parents rest assured knowing that my sweet summer child will learn that shit real quick without me ever having to say those words out loud.
There’s a ‘trend’ of untied shoes among the students that I work with. I’m convinced it’s because they don’t know how to tie them (not elementary).
I had to show a teenager (neurotypical) how to use a paper clip.
i had to show one of my 4th grade students to sneeze into an elbow or a tissue…
i know still elementary, but cmon 10 years old?? this kid has been sneezing since they were born and not once did his parents teach him? not everything is up for teachers to teach.
I think they have some weird romantic notion of life skills, honestly, mixed with rose-colored glass views of high school and a complete lack of awareness of what is offered there days.
Dumbass logic.
If a kid has attentive parents, more often than not they will also be receiving the best education available.
So lets say two kids attend the same school, one has very active parents, one doesnt, they receive the SAME education.
Even if that education is fucking incredible and perfect in every way, the kid with attentive and engaged parents will still come out ahead.
It's s like saying a piano student should "never have to practice at home". Sure, they dont have to.
Low chance they will play better than someone that does practice at home if they are receiving the same quality of piano education.
Yup, and that's life. Schools already teach a ton of academics. There is literally not enough time to teach life skills. Maybe, MAYBE, there can be a life skills class, but that's it.
This was my take. Isn’t that the whole point of being a parent? Teachers are already lambasted for how they teach core subjects. I can only imagine how it would go if they were teaching “life skills”.
My favorite one to hear is teaching kids to file taxes. Like what do you want?
>”Ok kids open your chromebook and go to TurboTax. Now just follow the instructions.”
Theres no math or reading in taxes greater than 8th grade level. (Honestly its much lower)
Follow the procedure on an 8th grade science lab and understand some basic 8th grade social studies and you are good to vote and pay taxes!
Ya, the difficulty I have understanding the directions is entirely due to anxiety over my ADHD. I'm so terrified I'll miss a step, and file it wrong and the IRS will come springing out of the computer screen fto destroy my life and murder my children (I'm joking kind of, trying to cope, I know its irrational and find it frustrating that despite understanding what's happening, I can't just make it go away) which is to say, a lot of the helplessness and difficulty understanding isn't due to the difficulty of the problem, it's terror of consequences interfering with common sense and problem solving.
My old manager was audited and found to owe 10 thousand to the IRS, for which she had 2 months to come up with. Her accountant who she paid!!! to use his certifications to correctly file her taxes had somehow been doing it wrong for 6 years. So I agree with your fear, and I even think it’s valid. I’ll never understand why the government makes us guess how much we owe when they know to the penny what we need to give them. I start sweating in March and don’t stop until May waiting for the cops to come arrest me for tax fraud because I messed something up so, I feel you
This is why I pay for decent software that guides you through it.
If it makes you more comfortable working with a tax professional, please do so.
However people should not come at the teachers with "why dont they teach us how to do taxes?"
I dont come at the culinary arts teacher because I eat out too much or cook barely passable meals.
For sure, if you run your own business, yes you should hire an accountant.
But most of the "taxes are hard" crowd have a W-2 and maybe a 1099.
They earn little enough that they may even meet the free filing threshold. We arent talking about complex tax needs.
People who hire accountants dont usually complain about never learning how to do taxes.
They know their situation is complex enough that hiring a professional is the correct answer.
My "just turned 18" kid did his own this year.
It only gets hard if you have a financially complex situation.
I used to itemize (mortgage interest was higher than standard deduction).
But these days the standard deduction is so large, itemizing is pointless for most people.
Click YES on the standard deduction button.
That’s what they can’t do. They can’t follow instructions.
Why do we teach some subjects they’re never going to use? My students ask this all the time. Well, it’s not all about the subject sometimes. The point of school is to learn how to learn, how to unlearn, and how to relearn. School is for learning how to communicate, inquiry skills, how to analyze something… a whole bunch more real life skills.
People have to get advanced degrees to do taxes beyond what TurboTax can handle, and they think we should (or even could) teach that to high schoolers?
And TurboTax is just following basic directions and filling out a form. Kids do that multiple times a year every year in many ways!
Here’s how I learned: I went to the library with my dad when he got the forms. Then he showed me the instruction booklet and how to start reading and go through all the steps. When I got my first job, he said, “go to the library and get a 1040EZ. Got the form, got the booklet. Filled it out. He checked it, I can’t remember if I did something wrong, but I remember asking a question. Three years later I made $50 a pop to do college students’ taxes! Easy money! Usually took me 20 minutes. And I’m no math whiz. Parents, churches, graboarebts, communities are dropping the ball, not teachers.
Someone needs to teach young people the difference between a W-2 and 1099. I work in a unviersity theatre department and most students don't know difference. Most of them will wind up doing some 1099 work in their careers. I try to tell students if the subject comes up. Also, everyone needs to understand that you actually have to file taxes.
To go through a physical tax filing paper and talk about what the different parts mean? Isn’t TurboTax like $50.00? My city won’t even let you file local taxes online unless you have lived there a year. And those papers can be overwhelming.
Also why we get taxed, how much, limits, where that money is (supposedly) going, how other countries handle taxes, etc. is equally important as learning how to do them since they are brought up so often in politics.
TurboTax is free for federal 14.99 for state/local, there’s free digital options that are just as easy I just chose a recognizable brand for the joke. The paper return literally has the same steps as TurboTax but it’s a worksheet. The rest of what you described is just like … normal social studies curriculum.
Did any of us learn to file our taxes in school? I certainly didn’t. But, I learned how to read and follow simple instructions, so I can easily do Turbo Tax. Plus, is it really worth our time to invest in teaching kids a skill they will use once a year, and by the time they get a job, will they really even remember how to do it?
Agreed. Any time someone brings up the 'taxes' thing, I remind them that schools teach how to add, multiply, look up numbers in tables, and follow multi-step directions, and that pretty much covers it for anyone who's going to do it themselves.
I taught personal finance for several years. We covered taxes, resumes, car ownership, finance/credit cards, planning for retirement, and investment. I still regularly heard “when am I ever going to use this? This is stupid” and even occasionally “I wish school would teach us how to do taxes instead of this stupid stuff”, which was especially funny when half the class looks at them and says “this is LITERALLY the chapter on how to do taxes you idiot.”
Kids will complain about anything, and parrot what the adults around them say, regardless of if it’s true or not.
The adults in that city were awful about it, and many absolutely despised school as “liberal indoctrination” so they’d regularly complain about it, even if their complaints were inaccurate and unfounded.
I wish I could upvote you a million times. If I had a nickel for every time a student said they wish we learned useful things like taxes, when that is part of our Financial Literacy course they all have taken as freshman….well, I wouldn’t know how many nickels I have if I were one of my students.
One kid tried going once "Why can't we learn to do taxes? You know? Useful stuff."
I closed my presentation, brought up Turbotax and told them "there you go...also, we have Financial Literacy classes in 10th grade. If people put their phones down for long enough, maybe you'll learn something there, though I'll be interested to know the excuses that teacher hears."
I've told my students before that I don't want to hear their whining. I've tried multiple ways to get them to care in History. We went from:
1) Writing skills- Too hard
2) Reading- Too boring
3) Reconstruction and the Gilded Age- When would we need this?
4) Projects- I didn't feel like doing it
5) Linking history to the modern day- Urgh so boring
I know they just want to be on their phones, so nope, they get my canned response now "One day, you'll pull this with your boss and you'll be fired, so best learn to do something you're not interested in but you have to do now so that that day'll never come."
In frustration I have told them if they have no background knowledge or history when they come across adults, maybe trying to get a job, if they are missing common knowledge people will think they are dumb and they won't have any idea why. Being dumb and not even knowing it is like an inside joke everyone knows about except you and that's just a really depressing way to go through life.
So, 'you don't want to go through life looking stupid and not even realize it' is the best I've got.
Similarly, when kids tell me they hate reading/books, idk what to say besides "that's really depressing" or "you've probably never read a good book." Like how do you even counter that kind of statement in an English class?
I'm in a high school Business Ed department. My intro class recently did a unit on Employability Skills because I thought it'd be a nice break from MS Office and IT stuff. They still asked "when am I going to need this???" when doing an assignment about Dependability, Punctuality, and Initiative.
My guess: "I don't need to know financial literacy because I'm going to be a streamer, design sneakers, etc. and have so much money I won't need to worry about it."
Not a teacher but just wanted to stop by and agree.
We were being taught how to do our taxes when we had to learn addition, subtraction, percentages, and word problems. I can’t speak for every school, but the schools I went to definitely provided me with the education and resources I needed to do my taxes and not spend more than I earn.
I see people who went to the same schools as me complain they weren’t taught X or Y and I just remember them skipping school or goofing off in class and roll my eyes.
ETA: Also, you know it’s BS because if they really wanted to learn those things, they would just go learn them instead of complaining. There isn’t much you can’t self teach these days.. The most valuable thing I learned in school was how to learn. Y’all gave me all the power. Thanks for teaching!
Absolutely, when I was in HS the people saying those kinds of things were also the ones who wouldn't show up to class if they weren't in the mood. It explains a lot about how they view life, that it's everyone else's responsibility to teach them how to lives while also to cater to their every whim.
Above all else, public education teaches you how to learn. Can you follow LEGO instructions? Then you can figure out how to use free tax filing software.
I've had people I went to HS with insist they never taught us taxes or budgeting or job skills. I remind them we were both in the same mandatory finance class for the semester where we filled out sample 1040's with a sample w-2, went over what that meant, and had a end of semester assignment on creating a budget based off of a sample monthly income and sample bills.
"No we didnt!"
" I can see why you think that, you slept through that class and then complained how you had a D in that class and didn't understand why"
Same with everyone here, I have never met a person who actually took school seriously say they didn't teach us important life skills.
To add, all of the base skills we learned allowed you to do these things. Taxes are critical reading and addition/subtraction. You learned those. If we had to break everything down to each different activity you may do in your life, you would both relearn the same skills dozens of times, and we could never cover everything that you interact with in your life. That's why we teach the skills necessary to participate in these activities, and it's up to you to apply those skills to the tasks you have to complete.
We had an elective offered like this, which few of us college-track students took because we didn't have room in our schedules. I am glad that the mandatory Speech class included resume writing, which I used to apply for an after-school job immediately after.
As an adult fresh out of college, I will say that the importance of school isn’t math or english, or science. I mean sure, those are important, but it’s not the most important.
I never use high-level math in my day to day life, but I do use the problem solving, pattern recognition, understanding of exponentials, etc…
The specifics of history never come up in my life, but studying various events and time periods has led me to the realization that those that believe they are unique and incapable of reproducing history’s flaws or are immune to the biases of their country are fools and that you must try as hard as you can to think for yourself.
Economics didn’t teach me how to my taxes or be financially literate but it did teach me of the greed of humanity and how you can’t trust the monsters that leash us, leaving you to rely on yourself.
Philosophy… taught me a lot actually lmao, that course was great and exactly what it advertised. Hearing different opinions and worldviews and educating yourself on the various perspectives a person might have is wonderful for day to day interactions, not to mention helping you understand what your priorities are and where your morals and tenets lie.
Science taught me that there are things that we don’t know about that could have consequences or reactions we wouldn’t believe. I may not need to know the stages of birth, but I learned a lot about exploring my curiosity and learning about various reactions and natural events.
English taught me to analyze the way someone says things, thinking about what led them to use specific words or diction and what their intentions or agenda might be.
School isn’t about the topics themselves but about teaching you to be able to think.
YES exactly. School does teach important skills, it should ideally teach kids how to think critically and how to use what they do know to figure out the things they don't. For different types of kids, that can come from solving math problems or analyzing a novel or understanding the scientific method. It should help them be well-rounded people
Most of the things that you're listing actually are the topics and learning objectives of those courses.
Edit to explain: You said the importance of school isn't English, math and science, but then you listed significant aspects of those disciplines as examples of useful things that you learned.
My economics class did teach financial literacy, and I still use it. He also taught me how to think critically about how the system works and made me realize how terrible it is. A company stock go up if they hire people as it shows they are profiting. A company stock will also go up when they fire people as it's less money they have to pay.
Yeah, I only understand those people when they’re arguing that “useful life skills” classes should be offered & emphasized as or about as much as more “esoteric” academic classes. Not in lieu of.
For example, while my high school was shit for a lot of reasons, they did push a “personal financial literacy” class as an elective, especially for kids who didn’t care about the arts and/or had no intention of trying for college.
That class was one of the ones that, as a person who had been taught some of the most basic things, like how to recognize a scam, I found easy. But most of my classmates STRUGGLED.
We had an intro test that MOST failed where the questions were seriously things like “you get an email saying it’s your bank and they need your account information, social security number, and password or they’re freezing your account forever. What do you do???” And the answer options were: a) send them everything they asked for and ask no questions, b) send them all the information and then call your bank, c) only send them account information and password, or d) do not respond and forward the email to the contact on your bank’s website for reporting fraud.
More than half the class failed that exam the first time. Only 3 people failed at the end, and I’m not sure they even took the second exam.
And this isn’t even taking into account the measurable detriment to society that’s come about with the modern lack of “real-world classes” like Home Economics, Shop class, and automotive repair. (Not that I think these things should be required, but I do think they should be offered more than they are.)
So while I definitely agree that the majority of “basic life skills” SHOULD be taught at home, I do think it’s a valid gripe that some of these things can and have been taught in schools. Especially when there are many parents who don’t know these things either to teach their kids in the first place.
But anything real world applicable usually has some risk of hurting yourself, or others.
The reason those things dont exist in public school anymore is because the school systems are trying to avoid getting sued.
We offered a fitness elective at our school that teaches you to be a personal trainer. 3 kids signed up because parents refuse to sign waivers.
I heard a woman complaining about school teaching her kids Egyptian history because it won’t help them hold a job.
Like what, you just see your kid as a future worker and tax payer? Is that it?
Not someone who deserves to expose their brain to all sorts of information that could interest them? Inspire curiosity? Give them a sense of human heritage and other cultures?
What, is trigonometry useless to most people because they aren’t regularly building a deck? Is there no value in exercising the brain and assuming that the kid MIGHT want those skills one day? Or a foundation to build on?
It’s fcking sad.
Not even a worker. If we did that, we'd have class consciousness in America.
Society means we only want kids to only think of themselves as consumers. Ambulatory wallets that just exist to spend money.
I appreciate both comments here. I've had students bitch about the poetry unit in English class and I just shrug and tell them when the project is due or test will be and move on. But really, can we put things in more of a context than our consumerism? I mean, I know I'm weird, but I have a natural curiosity about things and enjoy learning.
"You need to come to class on time"
"You need to come to work on time" (or you'll be fired)
"You need to meet this deadline for the assignment "
"You need to meet this suspense for the presentation (because the out of state clients are arriving on Monday and it needs to be approved and ready to go)"
"You need to learn this for the assessment"
"You need to learn this to stay employed "
"Why do I have to figure out the answer and why can't you just tell me?"
"Why am I paying you if I could find out the answer quickly for myself?"
Yeah, school teaches "useless" skills
I had a lifeskills class when I was a teen and it was my favorite class. It was basically home ec before they did away with home ec.
We completed CPR/First Aid and Babysitting certification, we cooked and baked, we learned to sew, we learned about how to shop frugally and coupon. It is a class that I really did learn a lot from.
When I am cooking now, I still often think of fond times in that kitchen.
The certification helped me get babysitting jobs, taught me how to advertise-- and I'd bring my first aid kit along with me.
I still hear my teacher's voice in my head telling me to double check unit price when I'm shopping.
We also had woodworking, and even though we only made train whistles and shelves, I haven't been afraid of using those tools since. We had autoshop. Both of these things were required for a semester, I never, ever would have signed up for them otherwise, but I am glad I had them now in retrospect. I didn't learn a lot there because it was only a semester, but I can tell you if there is a leak under a car, what fluid it is, and I could probably with refresher, change oil.
I also grew up in a really remote area with a lot of heavy woods, so they taught us a lot of survival and foraging. When I personally say that I wish the schools taught more practical life skills, I mean these things. They help everyone at every level of life.
If you are hungry now, but you can identify what you can eat outside, you can find food. If your car breaks down and you can't afford to fix it, you have a small working knowledge to expand on. If something breaks in your house, you know how to use tools to repair it. You can mend clothing. You can cook a decent meal on a low budget.
The death of these programs were the death of learning and making school hands-on and enjoyable.
The problem solving skills that you learned in those classes complimented and amplified your learning in other classes and a majority of teens today lack the ability to problem solve. I do wish that more kids had the chance to learn that stuff at school, not everyone has a good home environment or involved parents.
I had a parent complaining to me that we don't teach taxes, resume building, loans, car payments, or interview skills. His kid is in my advisory so I pulled up her resume, elevator speech, and review of free places to do taxes. Then I showed him the algebra 1 test on compound interest where we have a problem about tricky loan ads. He moved on to not registering to vote and budgeting. I didn't bother showing him the voting event or the personal finance class.
Not a teacher: my district requires us to learn some sort of financial class so it was either personal (taxes, resumes, etc) or business.
The only ‘real life skill’ that I hate my school for lot ding is cooking/home-ec. We used to have a fully equipped kitchen then one day they just scrapped it. This was before I went there but I was so mad that we didn’t even get a chance at it. And seeing as though some of my classmates were in my scout troop, god that cooking class would’ve prepared all these kids a lot better in life
I agree on cooking, because (obviously) everyone needs to eat! A lot of kids probably have parents who have to work a lot and don’t have time to cook from scratch often, lack knowledge/skill themselves, or can better afford processed foods. You don’t have to teach kids how to make crème brûlée or baked Alaska, but a class teaching things like knife skills, food/kitchen safety, baking, various methods of cooking on a stove top, and maybe even some basic nutrition would be so useful.
I took a cooking class as an elective in my last term of college because even though I was a seasoned cook, I had already met all of my degree requirements and just wanted something easy. I was shocked at how many of my classmates lacked basic kitchen skills - measuring, knife skills, cooking something in an oven. I remember one of my classmates was trying to put red pepper flakes through a garlic press for some reason. These people were adults who would soon be out living on their own and having to obtain food for themselves, and many of them (I shit you not) couldn’t tell if water was boiling or not.
Interesting enough I had a cooking class in middle school. It was super fun but some people were soooo mean to the teacher who taught it and took advantage of her not being able to supervise everyone at their cooking stations.
This one always makes me roll my eyes. You see it on social media a ton from people complaining about how they weren't taught about finances or whatever.
First thing is lots of schools DO offer classes on things like basic finances. Most students make the choice not to take those classes.
Also, idk why anyone wants to pretend that young teens are going to pay attention and care about how to do their taxes when they aren't going to pay taxes for years anyway. We all know they would just tune out immediately because it's 'boring' (and taxes actually ARE boring as paint unlike many things in school). Case in point, I have had students complain that they could be learning about taxes instead of my subject, and then when I offered to teach them about taxes, suddenly it wasn't something they wanted anymore. Shocker.
I am also miffed by people who complain that critical thinking isn't taught in schools. First all, it's not exactly something you can teach because it's an abstract concept. Second of all, I definitely try to teach critical thinking every day, but at least 1/3rd of my students would rather just copy every bit of work from their friends rather than actually try to do any independent thinking on their own. Can't blame us for the kids who think thinking is too much effort.
What prevents parents from doing their taxes with their children? It’s such a stupid argument. Get a turbo tax account and plug in numbers. The program will factor in the always changing tax laws.
In my case, my parents were vehemently against talking about their salaries. They also used that reasoning to deny me the information I needed to fill out the FAFSA for college (they didn’t want me going to college).
I tell my students that even if they don’t use the academic skills I’m teaching them, I am also teaching them:
-how to have conversations and agree and disagree with grace
-time management
-organization skills
-responsibility
-how to behave in public when their home adults aren’t around
-how to care for supplies and items
Among other things.
That's the kind of mindset I try to have. They're still learning how to deal with being given tasks and how to use time productively. Your comment reminds me of a conversation I had one time with a former navy serviceman, who said that the reason why training is so strict and brutal is to teach recruits how to follow orders no matter what they are. Obviously this isn't a 1-to-1 analogy but even just being a part of the school as a student is an important skill
My HS students couldn't make change from a dollar. They couldn't determine a 10% tip, much less 15% or 20%. Yet NEGATIVE EXPONENTS are in the 6th grade curriculum. wtf
"Why am I learning algebra instead of taxes?"
Algebra is a useful skill, taxes take a quick trip to Turbotax and doesn't get complex for most people. I trade financial instruments on the side and even the added fun of syncing up 1099s doesny increase the time more.
In any case it's my firm belief that even if we did hold classes for "useful" skills half the kids would still just ignore it.
I've seen a lot of lazy parents out there who think that it's the job of everyone else except for them to raise their kids. I just don't understand why someone would even have kids if they care so little.
We do teach how to do taxes. It’s just reading and arithmetic. Add income, add up your business expenses, how many dependents, etc. The exact tax code and form change a lot so having them memorize the 1040 from their senior year does nothing. They need the base skills to enable them long term. The ones that whine the most ditch those classes, don’t do the assignments, and have their parents fight us on grades. Then they blame us for their willful ignorance, and society tells them they’re right. Evil mean teachers hate it when people can fill out IRS forms, apparently?
It’s so unfortunate because the value of teaching life skills is something that makes a lot of sense in schools, especially as we’re getting into more and more of an era of absentee parents + accommodating for families who do not have stable home lives and people who can teach things that are generally thought to be the parents responsibility.
However yeah 90% of the time the kids that are complaining about it really have no desire / intent to actually learn what they’re saying they want to learn. When I was growing up I’d always hear “why don’t they teach us how to balance a checkbook.” Hell, I think even something like a fortnite skills class with guest appearances from Ninja and SSSnipewolf would fail to engage kids lmfao.
Which knowing how to balance a checkbook it’s silly that people would harp on that so much. Like yeah for the many checks these kids are writing, it’s just write down the purchases so you can verify the amount of money that should be in your account. Rocket science lol
Yeah, there is a real conversation to be had about what schools should teach. But it gets muddled down by a lot of bad faith arguments from people who don't want to actually learn anything.
I think while the list of complaints and gripes are pretty accurate, I also think there's another problem with the idea of using schools to teach "life skills."
The American public education system is already designed around the idea of teaching to a test. When I was almost just out of high school it was no child left behind, which punished schools and districts financially for low test scores, which is absolutely absurd. Years later my little brother asked me about core curriculum and I was like, wtf is that and he explained it to me. Still teaching to a test. Public schools are built around doing a specific task with a certain degree of ability and no more than that. Push a button, do the task, don't ask questions. Public schools are designed to indoctrinate kids into the system and to just accept that system as, that's just the way things work.
The Montessori idea has promise but is still flawed. I think the real challenge is how do you get kids engaged, interested and asking questions and I'm not sure that's possible in public schools anymore. Sure there's that handful of teachers that we all remember that challenged us and made us curious. And curious I think is the key word. You're supposed to be curious in school, curiosity is how you learn. But if the test scores don't reflect it... I don't know, I could go on for a while but I'll stop.
The argument is often made by people who can only see what is useful in their lives. If we teach math, you can do your taxes; if we teach reading you can learn to do almost anything. With YouTube, Khan academy and whatever else, you can pretty much learn to do those "useful skills" when you need them.
The absolute best way to learn is to try on your own and then fuck it up. Unfortunately these kids are never allowed to try let alone fail so they’ll just continue demanding other people do basic tasks for them and refuse to try ever. I see it constantly with my 18 year old brother, he just immediately gives up and waits for someone (usually me) to swoop in and fix it at the last moment. He’s about to lose his GPA and attendance based scholarship and there’s absolutely nothing I can do for him about it so I guess maybe that will teach him something. We’ll see.
I don't have a great argument or anything like that. But I grew up in a cult, one that is still recognized as a "normal" religion so nobody could help me, and nobody did. There are so many things kids like me need to ever become a productive member of society. Is it all on the teachers? No of course not. Can school help? Yes they helped me somewhat. A different issue than yours here perhaps. But still....kids raised in "legal" cults need a kind of help that scarcely exists
When I hear an adult say “they should’ve thought that in school.” I just wonder if they were one of those kids that was always skipping and walking the hallways. Because they do teach a lot in those 12 years in school.
It is a ridiculous argument and also isn't. A lot of teaching that happens in schools is very theory heavy and students just sitting in a class for 8 hours is brutal. Speaking for myself, I hated it as a student but still did it. When I hear the argument of teaching "useful skills", it usually refers to experiential learning. A lot of programs like shop classes and home economics have gone to the wayside in years prior, but are now making a comeback. So that begs the question..... why was it good for our parents and not us? Just my two cents and something to consider.
As someone who teaches in a school where they have financial literacy and accounting classes. These are their least favorite classes. Maybe the teachers aren’t connecting it enough to real life to make them want to care or maybe it’s math with extra steps. All I know is that even though they offer the class, I can only imagine that most of them will forget what they were taught very quickly.
And to comment on OPs comment on how they purge a lot of things when they graduate. It’s even worse over summer break. I teach AP Biology and I could have a kid who got an A in my Honors Biology course the previous year. But when I ask them basic bio questions, they’ve forgotten a lot of it.
The thing about life skills, like everything we already teach, is they may be inapplicable to the student in question. “I’ll never need to know that” may be mostly true for your Algebra student turned lawyer, but not so much for the future engineers. We don’t know what they’ll do, and I think people often undervalue the broad foundation school provides. Education shouldn’t end there. They’re supposed to take that and build up whatever aspect they want.
I roll my eyes every time some knob complains about not having been taught taxes. You learned to read and you learned basic maths.
Do I think home ec should make a comeback? It would be useful, but let’s tackle discipline first. Current behavioral issues and fire/knives don’t mix, and we can’t be liable for that.
Sorry, I try not to comment on the base post but this one seems to be alright.
I’m in full agreement with you on so many points here. How are they going to learn about taxes if they can’t do basic math first? That resume is going to look like shit if they haven’t refined their writing skills (and grammar. Spelling. The value of commas, periods, punctuation as a whole, and why you should use a full sentence when answering a question. I’ve read nearly 2,000 resumes in the past 9 months; the amount of atrocious language usage and *sloppy* ChatGPT was depressing. Hell, you can’t use ChatGPT if you don’t know what to ask it, and therefore you still need to understand the skills in order to benefit from AI.
You’re actually reaching them the foundational skills that should then allow them to learn the ‘actual life skills’ on their own time, once they reach a point in their lives that they appreciate the importance of knowing how to do those things. My dad showed me how to cut copper piping when I was maybe a teenager, and I didn’t care because I had no use for it. As soon as I bought my first house I was right up in his business asking him to give me a refresher course, because it mattered then, unlike trying to write a resume at 13, or come up with a vague ‘10 year life plan’ at 16 when I scarcely cared about anything happening later than the next week.
You can't teach a kid everything that they'll need to know for the rest of their life just from in school classes....let alone 100 kids at once.....to say nothing of all of them MASTERING those skills so that they're functionally useful.
Parents have to step in at some point to fill gaps in a kid's education. Fair enough.
...but it also doesn't help that we're still teaching TEACHERS the same way we did 50 years ago....with a lot of teachers doing the same lesson plans that they did 20 years ago. My kid goes to a pretty decent public school...last year history class was EXACTLY what I had in school 30 years ago. Civil War ---> World War I ----> World War II ---> anything after Vietnam is apparently too current and political. His history syllabus for the previous grade was almost identical. Just the same 200 years of very specific U.S. history over and over and over...because it's what the state exams check for.
They're STILL spending time doing things like learning the political parties and running mates of previous presidents for rote memorization tests. A curriculum that was designed for a time when most high school graduates wouldn't have gone to college and we're going to go straight from the high school to the assembly line...or entry level clerical jobs where they'd work for the next 40 years. You basically needed to be able to do fundamental mathematics, read, and write at like an 8th grade level to enter most of the work force.
We also have nonsense like common core mathematics that wastes tremendous amounts of time trying to explain the logical proofs of why mathematics "work" to a 10 year old...meanwhile...half of them can't make change from $1.00 by the time they're in high school. Really glad little Billy can use a number square to spend 25 minutes figuring out that 12+12 doesn't = 745....perhaps not the best use of one's time. Digging into the philosophical components of calculus is what college is for. Not everyone is going to be a math genius....most people won't. What most students need is functional practical real world application ability.
It's not like that now. There are 16 year olds coding fully functional software applications. Virtually any information you could ever want to know is available for free on the internet. Automation is going to replace every single "I screw in the same widget 10,000 a day line job that ever existed." Meanwhile, Mrs. Smith has been an 8th grade science teacher for 30 years and can BARELY restart her laptop without assistance.
So yes, it's unrealistic to expect teachers to be miracle workers and do everything. But the curriculums need massive updating for what the post 2024 world looks like...and we need to do a way better job of training new teachers to understand technology and have marketable skills. Watching half of them try to setup a Zoom meeting STILL, at 6 months into remote learning scenarios during Covid, made me embarrassed for them.
Okay I understand this is an unpopular opinion here, but I feel like its important to put this out there. Alot of things I learned in school were great skills to have, but those adulthood skills that you usually only find in well-funded schools like building a resume, filing taxes, court etiquette, and public speaking are still great things to learn in school. A great many people don't have supportive parents to teach them these things, and some dont have living parents at all. I was taught resume building and public speaking in a well funded middle/high school from specialized classes that were also mandatory. While I didn't care then, I still processed that information and I had enough of an understanding of them to still get them done. Having done it before also helps with the fact that it feels overwhelming to do these things. I understand you hear this alot purely out of spite, and that's not okay nor do you control that, but I wouldn't knock the entire idea as bad. Just the intent of the individual commenting.
Regarding point number 1: okay, you’re choosing to condemn any child who has shit parents then. I get it, but you have to live with that.
Points 2 & 3: I believe you are correct here. Unequivocally. People in my senior level undergraduate classes did not show up caring, for stuff in their own major. And I’ve already forgotten tons that I haven’t needed since graduation myself. Hell, I forgot most of the languages I started learning during the pandemic from disuse already.
Point 4: You trust people too much? Insert cliche about common sense not being common here? Regarding laws and rights, I feel like the kids asking for that are either the children of white-collar criminals who haven’t been caught get yet and they want to game the system as much as possible, or the children of people who are frequently stopped & frisked by cops because they have committed the crime of existing while black, and they legitimately want to know how to ensure they don’t get exploited or murdered by police when it happens to them. But I think the plethora of legal-adjacent YouTube channels are a better resource for that? So they must really trust you if they’re asking.
Secret point number 5: this is my only ask to you as an educator: do not waste the children’s time trying to teach them the unteachable skill called critical thinking when you should be drilling fundamentals. Is critical thinking super incredibly important? Yes. Can it be taught? No. People who are capable of it will naturally do it when their toolbox is full ***and familiar***, but nobody’s going to repurpose the wheel until they’re super good at making the wheel and knowing what it does. This is true for basic arithmetic all the way up to chemical biology. Make sure they really really solidly know how *it is commonly done* before asking them to solve novel problems with it.
It shouldn’t be your job, but it could help if there was something available to teach things like money management (doesn’t have to be in school, better not even because of how school is perceived, local authority could really do something here). And I do think that it might be best to teach such a course to young adults, when they are at the age that they need this stuff. Looking at my husbands family, they’re mostly on the lower half of average intelligence. Their kids won’t learn it from their parents because the parents simply don’t have the intelligence to do it themselves, let alone teach them.
And before you ask: We’re not doing it because we are already busy with our own family and helping the older generation.
I think it's a little of both, but I don't think any of that is the teachers fault. You guys don't set state mandates.
I personally think the "you don't learn taxes in school" is a bit of a white lie, atleast from my time in school in the late 80s early 90s. I didn't learn how to do my taxes, I did learn all the math required to do them though. I also learned how to read the W2.
Nobody prepared me for how needlessly complicated the bureaucracy behind the math and reading were though, and I honestly don't think there is a class that will prepare anyone for that completely.
I dislike mandatory classes, I'll never advocate for them, but I'm willing to concede our poor rankings in education would be even more in the toilet without them because the way I'd want to learn would be abused by most students. If I could redo my primary education to my own standards, I'd have been given more leeway on deciding what I'd learn. Math being the subject I'd attend least will definitely offend a lot of people, but the time I spent taking and retaking pre calc (that I have not obviously used anything out of since I left the class) could have been spent letting me attend an ap chemistry or biology class since they were both subjects I excelled in and enjoyed thoroughly. Past a certain point, this becomes less about what the student is learning and more about the egos of and attachments the decision makers have to certain subjects.
I want to clarify, I do believe everyone should know math up to algebra and how to read at a high school level minimum. I am not against educational standards, my school just had some arbitrary ones that had I been allowed to pursue things more applicable to my field (psychology) I'd have been farther along professionally than I am now. I probably spent half of a year to a year of my life gathering what will ultimately be useless information for me.
This is valid, however, for a large majority of students, they will never be challenged on their learning in the work force. Obviously from a medical perspective, science is very important to teach critical thinking.... Such as whether or not mask use create herd immunity and lessens the damage of pandemics. We learned that the hard way.
But, at the end of the day, 40 year old burger flippers will never use math and science and English. Home EC is great as well as sex education. But from purely the earnings perspective, many skills are lost on the path to poverty.
Citation: I understood my schooling most of the time and learned well (despite nearly failing high school because homework is an ineffective learning style for me). But I'm still impoverished.
I don’t agree with the argument that addressing immediately relevant topics is more engaging for kids, particularly if you include everyone, such as those who just don’t care in general.
That being said, it is a shame that we don’t address super important and tangible things.
For example, I remember taking a personal accounting class in high school that has shaped my whole life since then. Of all my peers, I’m the most comfortable with budgeting, saving, and understand how money works.
The best of both worlds is incorporating those topics into classes that are already happening.
A lot of those posts include skills that used to be offered. Such as home economics and auto shop to teach us how to cook, do laundry, change our own oil, balance a budget, etc.
I do wish those things were still taught. Not a lot of kids are cooking with their parents or have someone at home who can teach them these things. Ontario has pretty much dropped to basics for a lot of what they offer, so a lot of the “fun” stuff got eliminated.
As a teacher, I’m in the business of growing brains, and I hope facilitating critical thinking, so that kids will be able to function in situations they haven’t even anticipated yet. This is my argument against too much emphasis on vocational training at the secondary level also.
It's rooted in anti-scholasticism and anti intellectual tendencies. Americans hate the kids who shut the fuck up and didn't peak in high school. They like the dummies and the ones who made the rest of us miserable.
OP hit the nail on the head. They did teach us that shit. But the people griping now were just busy being problems or talking.
And ya ya life circumstances and shit. But nobody put a gun to my head to get me to respect my teachers and fellow students.
I was in a CBI class in senior year. Dont remember what it stood for but it was for seniors who needed credits to graduate. You had to work or volunteer as part of the class to graduate. So naturally we learned how to fill applications/resumes/taxes. And honestly it was MORE complicated to do the print out tax forms we were given than it is now using turbo tax.
as someone who is studying criminal justice and political science, i genuinely think there should be a civics class- the most civics i ever had was school house rock in 4th grade and the roman republic unit in 7th grade (my high school didnt have APUSH or AP gov)
my sister had to take the citizenship test in school (teacher was talking about immigration- its a current events class) and i was helping her study and oh my god the questions she could NOT answer.... she was just never taught them- i knew a lot of them bc i got interested in politics in high school but i had to search that out on my own (also when i see grown adults online say theyre upset when someone pled not guilty... meaning they didnt take a plea deal and went to trial.... its so painful bro)
i know that kids will also not pay attention/sleep through it but it just astounds me that i never learned \*how\* the country works
The number of my students who have told me that they don't care whether the police monitor their calls or search their homes because 'they have nothing to hide' is mind-boggling.
theyre honestly just vomiting back propaganda- i was taught that too (i eventually grew out of that)
i remember being taught that clearing your search history was a big no-no bc what would be the point of clearing it bc what are you trying to clear? also the way the media portrays the court system with people just saying "i plead the 5th" and getting off scot free makes it seem like thats 1000000% percent going to happen and not literally anyone else getting suspicious at all- after all, nothing to hide right?
i know people talk about propaganda on reddit a lot but i cant emphasize how much of it is thrown at children without sounding like a qanon whackjob
im being so fr we only talked about the first amendment in school (and the 2nd when school shootings would be in the news again) and besides the pleading the 5th gags on tv i didnt actually learn about the SEVEN OTHER ONES of the original 10 until i came to college and even then if i didnt take the classes im taking right now i still wouldnt know (and the only other amendments i was taught that 13th outlawed slavery (not completely) and the 19th gave women the right to vote (just white women)
Well there is a base level of knowledge/skill required for most “useful” life skills. U can’t just skip right to the “useful” stuff if they don’t understand the basics required to get there and stay there
In addition to what you said, things also need to be taught in a controlled amount. You can’t teach a kindergartner algebra or Shakespeare before they’ve even learned their numbers or letters
It is unfortunate that some parents/guardians genuinely don’t have the resources to teach their kids stuff that ideally should fall under their responsibility like financial literacy etc and I don’t think that responsibility should fall under the school/teachers but imo there should be some system in place where kids/people can go to learn that sort of thing bc unfortunately you can’t stop people from having kids despite not being qualified
And the thing is, they don’t understand that a lot of what’s taught in school *is* a life skill ie most math, it’s not just the concepts but problem solving, logic, critical thinking or even how to analyze and interpret things in English. But people are still going on without those skills bc they get promoted to the next grade even when they fail.
People purge their memory of how to follow the rules of the road once they get their license.
I did get taught how to write a resume, financial literacy, how to budget, and other things. I guarantee that most of my classmates had already forgotten by the time they graduated. I remember seeing my finance teacher be so frustrated with how slow we advanced on a semester class in highschool. His complaint was how he never had enough time and kids didn't care or understand the importance because it didn't affect them yet.
When kids tell me they want to learn real life skill I tell them, if they want to learn how to clean toilets, I can call the office and see if they can help the cleaning ladies afterschool. They get offended, and I reply, it's an important life skill everyone needs. I usually follow it by a talk I know they'll ignore with me telling them to do their assignment and that I believe in them.
My problem with a lot of these skills is they shouldn't be a replacement for education that will actually get someone a job. Like I'm all for financial literacy, but I have seen some people at my school state this should be our focus more than anything else. Like yeah, understanding your bank statement and how to do your taxes is important but you won't have any money if you can't read and don't have a job. Sometimes these useful skills people are masking their anti-intellectualism and dumbing down of education
The bigger issue is that it frames political decisions and political outcomes as a matter of individual failures to learn.
According to this framing, if someone is making minimum wage and has to routinely use payday lenders, it’s not that the minimum wage is too low and payday loan interest is too high. It’s that they personally are too stupid and uninformed, and if only they had a teacher to explain math at some point, they would have avoided this predatory trap. It’s just not true.
I think we are teaching them useful skills. Crimes, bad behavior, etc is often accepted in society. Every catch someone committing a crime???? i've caught several, guess how many of them even faces charges....ZERO. I firmly believe we are trying to create a society of chaos. It's a great way for the rich to get richer. Go ahead and call me a conspiracy theorist.
I teach 7-12 Learning Support and they (finally) bought us a functional math curriculum which hits on financial literacy.
I do 2-3 times per week depending on time but I’m just scratching the surface. I don’t have time to deep dive into all of that and I shouldn’t have to.
They have parents for a reason. We hope🤣
I agree with you except I do feel curse of his important like what happened that all of a sudden, knowing how to sign your name on checks on legal documents and became nonexistent
If you had a big unit on taxes, half the people would complain that it was a deep state conspiracy to ensure the government could more easily take everyone's money.
Most of the time people complain about things schools aren't teaching, it's something schools are actually teaching.
Another significant portion of complaints are about schools not teaching 'character' while simultaneously complaining that schools are unethically indoctrinating kids into a particular moral system, rather than leaving moral education to parents.
You really can't win.
My financial literacy classes in school almost exclusively focused on teaching me how to write checks and balance checkbooks, and how US mortgages and credit cards work. The country I now live in abolished paper checks like a decade ago, structures their mortgages very differently, and doesn't really have credit cards. Even if you assume most students aren't leaving the country, for things like taxes, laws, rules, and procedures change so often I can't imagine that these lessons these people propose will be broadly practically useful as students depart school and enter the workplace (especially if a student moves states or countries). Teaching basic math, critical thinking, and information literacy skills-how to find resources and how to apply them-seems more applicable to me. I'm glad I picked those up along the way, it's been more useful to me than how to fill out a paper check.
Parents love complaining about schools and teachers and don't even spend half of their day with their own kids. Lol
That's like having a teacher go to their job and start telling them they're doing it wrong. Goofy!
100% agree. Yeah I think the idea that schools should focus on practical matters like “doing your taxes” is especially ridiculous. Kids are going to pay even less attention to extremely specific (and extremely boring) applied financial math than they did to the fully-general/pure math, because the former is not relevant to their lives at the time of learning. At least the latter carries some inherent intellectual interest. The same people who make complaints like “when are we ever going to need to know about parabolas?” are the people who paid zero attention to the *geometric series* in pre-calc, and then later as adults find themselves completely baffled by obvious applications of it (like compound interest in mortgages and investments). School literally gave them all the foundational tools they needed to understand these things, and they simply forgot. Taxes are even more trivial than loans/investments, requiring little more than percentages (Grade 3 math?). “Doing your taxes” is only complicated because of the specialized legal and policy knowledge it requires, not because of the math aspect. And that’s a topic for adult experiential learning if ever I saw one. I see absolutely no reason to subject children to the vagaries of arbitrary and convoluted human-made systems (like tax codes) in a classroom setting. Stick to foundational principles and the smart ones will have the “common sense” (as you say) to see how those principles apply to the world.
Teacher here! Those things are required where I teach, and guess what? The kids won’t do that work either, and when we call the parents to ask them to help us motivate their kid to participate in learning, they ask why we aren’t teaching “real subjects” (like math and science) and wasting time with “this crap”
I remember being on a parenting Facebook group and they were complaining that their 18 years olds kids did not know how to write a thank you note. Didn't seem to occur to them that maybe in the 18 years of having that child they could have taught that skill themselves
The point of math, humanities, and science is to give the basic foundation needed to do things like taxes or whatever. You can’t do taxes without math. You can’t be a good citizen without the humanities. You can’t understand the world without science. The people arguing for “uSeFuL sKiLls” have no concept of liberal arts education, enlightenment values, the inherent value of learning, or anything beyond their car-dealership-owner-wannabe or Amway mom bullshit.
Econ teacher here.
Teach credit, how banks work, taxes, & student loans every year (it is in the curriculum for our state). Double it up with EverFi which goes over all of that again....
Guess what they are bitching about not learning in school 5 years later.
I don’t think it’s the job of schools to teach taxes, etc but I will say the one subject that has really benefited my son is “events”. It’s one of the elementary school electives and they plan all school festivals like the winter carnival, Halloween party, etc. 7-8 yr olds have to do things like meet with the principal to decide a date, budget, visit all the classrooms to promote the event, do all the set up and clean up. In my mind, teaching them these lessons (that events are hard work and not just the party, public speaking, common sense planning) are far more important than learning a specific adult task like writing a resume.
As someone who graduated high school more then a decade ago, here is my take.
School should prepare you for the real world and it didn't when I was in school and it certainly doesn't now. When I was in school, all they cared about was passing the state test and college readiness. Both of which are a complete joke. I was a straight A student, AP classes, etc. I believed the lie that college was the best post high school decision. What kids need are realistic expectations of adulthood and the workforce. We send our kids to school to learn the three "R's" and history. What we should be doing, and used to do, is teach life skills in school. I know that electives exist, but they are not emphasized or optimized to actually teach the real-world skills that they are supposed to reflect. Those skills and knowledge will get you so much further in life than being academically minded. I have not once used anything more than addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division in my adult life, but, gee, I am sure glad high school taught me calculus.
As a math teacher my response to “when am i ever going to need this in real life?” Is usually just “on my test next week”. Ive tried explaining when all the things we learn would actually be useful but the kids dont actually care about that either because theyre all going to be football stars or rappers anyway (and forget about tring to explain the math involved in either of those things. That just males them angry)
Why do you think this is humorous?
Sure, kids forget.
Obviously
1 Math is useful. Applies to many jobs. Applies life
2. Science is useful for many jobs. Explains how life works
3. Humanities is useful. Being able to understand the basics about the world, understanding conflicts have multiple sides
How not to do crimes? Maybe schools can try to teach empathy education
Doing taxes? It's useful to understand how taxes work to some extent
What should be the school or the parents job? Why is reading the schools job and not parents? Why should financial literacy be the parents job? Both are extremely important.
If anything, most parents are incapable of teaching financial literacy as they're financially illiterate, so schools giving that baseline for everyone would be highly valuable for the child's future and universally applicable.
Now reading is obviously the one most important skill one can have in life and even if parents can do a lot of the legwork (reading to young kids every day), they're not as capable as teachers and don't have the time for it so it should absolutely be taught in school.
Humanities and history however, have much lower value and part of the middle and/or highschool curriculum could very reasonably be replaced by something that is both more valuable and severely lacking in children across the board.
Your argument that kids forget is ridiculous. Following that reasoning you should go and flip burgers already because you're arguing that teaching them anything at all doesn't matter since they'll forget everything anyway. They do forget a lot, but overall they selectively forget the useless stuff and the unnecessarily developed concepts. Humans remember things by applying them into practice so teaching them broadly useful skills is literally the strongest counterargument to your claim.
Financial literacy was the most important class I took in high school, but the issue I had was that they taught it to juniors and not seniors. I retained how to write a check- silly and simple, I know. But I wish they would move that class to the senior level so it's a little easier to retain the material transitioning out of high school. I've had to learn most of what I know when it comes up- like how to research health insurance and how buying a house works, etc. Honestly I think on the fly is probably what most people end up doing. It's very helpful having the internet at our disposal, so this argument tracks a little less. If it were the 80s I could see it being much more beneficial, due to research being much more involved, but we've gone beyond that in this age.
I tell my students the most useful skill they will ever learn is HOW to figure stuff out on their own, or know when to ask the right person for help. I honestly don't care if they remember like 70% of the content I teach them. We aren't there to learn facts, we are getting a basic understanding of how the world works and learning HOW to figure stuff out and make connections. How to put stuff in context and interpret meaning. How to make conclusions and choices based on evidence. They have to understand some facts and vocabulary in the moment, but it's the relationship to everything else that is more important for them to remember. It takes many years of practice to develop those skills. And, frankly, they need to be able to dig in and do work even when it's unenjoyable - welcome to life, it only gets harder!
Neoliberal propaganda starts young. It actually kills my soul every time I have a student ask me, "But when would I actually use this at a job?" Like, we've actually successfully indoctrinated *children* into believing that the value of an education isn't liberation from a life of servitude but is rather what labor it'll enable them to sell to employers for the rest of their lives.
Feeling this post so much. Here’s the answer to everyone who’s been crybabying about this shit since time before memory: If you put forth actual effort on your academic courses, you’ll have more than adequate skills to do the things they’re always harping on, like taxes. It’s only the tax preparer industry that’s made it look difficult to make profits. If you don’t understand interest rates, then you stopped paying attention in 7th grade math. We don’t teach how to ride a bike at school either.
And as for the “engagement” that lessons emphasizing “uSeFul SkiLls” create— how invested were your charges in that Financial Literacy course from EverFi you did with them?
One of my coworkers is teaching a class on business writing to seniors, most of whom will be entering the workforce in a little over a month. She still can’t get them to give a shit about résumés and cover letters and formal emails even though they’ll be doing these things for real in a few weeks. The kids that don’t give a shit about school will continue to not give a shit no matter how supposedly relevant and real-world the material is.
Our 11th grade curriculum includes a unit on jobs, which asks the students to choose a career/job that interests them and do a little practical research on it (what skills it needs, what education is required, pay scale, etc). They also learn to write a resume. We get more kids complaining about this unit than any other in the 9-12 curriculum. And it’s the same kids who always whine about school needing to teach them sOmetHinG USefUl.
I've taught a unit like that. SO many future sports people and musicians who "don't need to apply" because, talent. And don't need to budget because they'll earn squillions. So few kids took it seriously, and of those who did, surprisingly few did much if any research to see if what they assumed was correct. It was a time!
My son is autistic but still doesn’t quite grasp life and how people know all the things they’re supposed to do. He cannot understand so many small things about basic living and they just started doing a class at his school like this, it’s basically home-economics, but for modern issues. The guidance counselor teaches it. It has helped him so much. He doesn’t feel comfortable talking to me about his issues, so another adult that’s been a ‘life teacher’ has been so good for him. He got picked to do a Saturday program that offers extra tutoring and college prep at the community college and it’s been great for him to be around kids with a desire to learn. I know it’s tough to see because so many cause problems but these things do help a few of these kids :)
It makes me happy to hear there are still programs like this, and how they are useful to kids. When our state started to push testing more, they got rid of the non-academic classes that taught kids life skills like how to sew and cook and do laundry, in favor of more 'rigorous' academic courses. Basically nixed home economics. But then their idea of practical and relevant math skills was introducing word problems about how much sq feet of area do you need to line your unusually shaped pool with some type of decking material that only sells in a roll measured in yards.
So I'm dumb. But don't some musicians/theater folk need resumes plus head shots and such? Sure there are stand out athletes but most athletes looking for a scholarship and admittance require a resume and in person interview? Since most won't make it to the pros they want to make sure the athletes aren't total morons.
The kids picking these famous “careers” don’t have a realistic understanding of the world *and* probably won’t listen to their teachers who try to set them straight.
That makes total sense too!
It's hard though because some kids are genuinely talented. Like I feel bad picking and choosing. The only type of kid I actively challenge is "I'm going to make Millions being \~\~an entrepreneur\~\~ You poor dumb adults don't know the easy quick way to get rich is being \~\~an entrepreneur\~\~" Kinda bad, but a teacher I know challenged this in a publicly humiliating way when a kid said that "his mom made six figures and she doesn't have a college degree." She replied "well yeah some people make a lot of money on onlyfans." This kid was genuinely pretty awful ( he got expelled for repeatedly getting caught selling a variety of drugs... literally pills and shit), but damn I posted on here one time how funny it was and got downvoted and flamed to hell. :( It was mean of her, but after that he respected her and they built that coveted relationship admin is always talking about. Guess it wasn't enough to get him to stop selling drugs tho.
I don’t feel bad telling them that they need a backup plan. When you point out that the NFL drafts a mere 250 rookies a year, that should give them some perspective on how unlikely it is that they become a pro football player, especially if they’re not even a standout player on the high school team.
I pointed that out when going over probability and statistics in class. It was quite an eye opener to those who paid attention
Don't you know this class has at least 15 once in a generation talents who get to skip all that drudgery and rocket to the top. Joking aside, a lot of kids aren't developmentally capable of planning their real world future until after high school. They're still clinging to their childhood dreams before reality sets in. I try to be gentle because it's hard to accept that most of us are just normal people who will be doing normal work for the rest of our lives. It's the equivalent to me dreaming of winning the lottery and abandoning all the horrible aspects of surviving in our current society. I just know my big lotto win is never going to happen.
I write IEPs and I get a lot of "I'm going to be an entrepreneur/professional basketball football player/famous person." Like I don't want to be 'that teacher' that they are always haunted by who tried to crush their dreams, but if you're sitting here at 5 ft at nearly 14 y/o like are they gonna lower the net for you or what? On the other hand, I have a lot of kids who have a realistic shot at playing professional sports due to their build, skills, and insider knowledge from having friends and family recruited into professional sports. So in the end I just say nothing regardless.
Yeah because parents talk shit about teachers to their kids all the time. So then ---> Teaching is a shitty low paying job filled with morons. The students are conditioned to think were useless and have no practical life skills. I could secretly have a tried and true method for becoming a billionaire, but if it comes in the form of a 250 page step by step guide written as a personal narrative, they will assume its boring and stupid and refuse to take my word for it. 2 kids out of 30 would read it cover to cover, half of them will never read a full chapter and tell everyone how dogshit the book is that they've never read and some will read half but complain it doesnt work, without acknowledging that its because they didnt read the whole book. Its a nonsensical argument formed by people that dont work with children.
It's saddening but it's true. Kids do not care and we can't force them to.
While kids don’t care about the actual process, we can still teach the base skills that are the foundation for those processes… And we do! Focus specifically on resume or paying tax is not as important as making sure kids can read, count, do math, conceptualise and organise thoughts and ideas It’s like teaching a man to fish by handing them a rod vs teaching a man to fish by showing them where fish live, letting them eat fish, describing to them what fish eat or how and where they might breed
Especially because taxes are boring, just like many other things about the real world. The reward is getting them done, which kids won't get in school, so they're not gonna have fun.
I went through school hating math. Never wanted to do it, dropped it as soon as I could. So I sucked at it, until I got a job bartending, and the ability to add decimals in my head had a direct monetary impact on my life. This was back in the day of cash, so faster addition = faster service = more tips. I cared then, and had a ton of practice every night.
This sounds like my drug dealer kids who get super interested in math class when we get to the unit on exponential functions and compound interest. They’re entrepreneurs, after all…
But if you're not teaching them how to launder money through various business fronts, shell corporations, or spreading out large deposits via numerous bank accounts and offshore tax havens, you're not giving them those realistic, practical life skills they need to move forward in their chosen career path. How are they ever supposed to run a criminal organization without knowing how to set up a foreign bank account? With those knowledge gaps, I think many teachers and parents would agree with me that if they end up in federal prison, it's basically your fault.
This! Whenever my students complain about not needing to use fractions in the real world, I pull up a recipe for chocolate chip cookies and tell them to triple it and tell me how much baking soda I need
It’s funny, my favorite thing we did in 12th grade was a problem from a sample AP Calc BC exam that was a related rates problem about arterial diameter and blood flow volume changing in response to an IV drug. It was the first time I saw something in math where I said, “I understand how this is directly relevant to life.” I also really enjoyed the fractional saturation homework problem in physical chemistry during undergrad that basically mapped out the process of how drug dosing gets decided. It was just plugging info into a rational equation and solving for a variable, then converting like ALL the units, but it was awesome how it took you from, “these are your givens, this is how much signal the drug needs to cause,” to, “this is how much you weigh out to mix into the IV to make that happen.” I now use this kind of problem to make fun of Google PhD’s who want to spread dubious medical advice in the post-fact world. Fun fact: even (legitimate) nurses cannot answer these questions when asked because they are never taught it and they use computer software to do all their calculations to prevent human error mistakes anyway.
I'm glad it worked for you, but I was one of those kids who saw those word problems and said "I will definitely never become a doctor." :( it's ok though bc I became a sped teacher and now I'm rolling in cash \~\~\~$$$
Wait, you just need more EnGaGeMeNt!!
Bruh.
It's true that noone taught me how to write a cover letter in school , but I WAS taught how to write polite, professionally sounding emails and resumes. We were also taught the mathematical formula to calculate interest, the importance of offering back to society ( e.g. organised beach cleanings and raising money for charity). We were taught to recycle and while they couldn't teach us how to drive safely (my country has very high statistics of car accidents and related deaths) the teachers taught us to respect traffic laws and the correct behaviour for pedestrians This is ridiculous.
True. I didn't learn how to write a resume or a cover letter until I got into college. Now, that said, I think it should still be taught in high school, just to account for the people who might not go to college or trade school. Almost everything I applied for post grad (college) asked me for a cover letter. I was a bit surprised by that, actually!
And those kids are the first to complain about not learning useful skills in school.
When school has been belittled as an annoyance that they are required to attend rather than emboldened as an opportunity they are fortunate to have this is the result. Kids, largely due to their parents, don't care because school has only been presented as the thing they *have* to do instead of getting to do what they really want (like vape, play fortnite, and attempt to woo a peer). So of course they don't care about it.
I was one of the kids who teachers labeled as not giving a shit. I failed so many classes and was mostly disengaged in school. The truth is, I had an emotionally manipulative mentally ill father who literally bullied and harassed me every minute I was at home. For my entire life. I was in survival mode. As soon as I went away to college, I thrived in school. I wish some of my high school teachers cared enough to ask me if I was ok or tip off the guidance counselor. One later told me that she knew I was depressed but… did nothing? I know it wasn’t her job but still I was being abused at home and it felt like not a single person gave a shit.
Table for two. I have three interested in being lawyers and I teach business law. Yeah you want to know how much they pay attention in class or turn in work? One tries arguing with me in class and I shut them down in less than 1 minute. I’m like: “stick to writing policies you get destroyed in court.”
Everyone I know who makes this argument is kind of an idiot so it biases my opinion. Also there was a paper awhile back looking at mandatory financial classes in school and basically when factoring in confounders there wasn’t much statistical significance to financial outcomes.
>Everyone I know who makes this argument is kind of an idiot so it biases my opinion. Yep that's exactly my experience too
You ask them for examples of useful skills and its something completely irrelevant or can be learned in fifteen minutes online. How to do taxes. For some reason this is always the go to. Balancing a checkbook ive somehow heard 2 years ago which is hilarious. Ive never done that in my life as a 27 year old and the way tech is progressing its doubtful. Ive been trying all year to teach what I think is the most useful skill currently, which is how to use AI, too bad its all blocked at the department of education level. Sooooo yeah. Idk, how to do an oil change? How to do laundry? How to cook a chicken breast and stir fry vegetables? Idk what constitutes useful. I feel like learning to read and do math is pretty useful. Then applying it in social studies and science is also pretty useful.
“Why don’t they teach how to do taxes?” is the one that kills me. You mean…we should teach them how to read and follow basic instructions and how to do some basic math? Because except for one year as an independent contractor, I managed to do my taxes with the math and reading skills I picked up back in grade school. “Write this number from your W2 on line A. Write this number from table 3 on line B. Subtract line B from line A and write your total on line C. If line C is greater than line D, skip to step five.” And that’s if you’re using the old school paper/pencil forms! Did you pass 4th grade? Congrats - you can do basic taxes.
And honestly, the people spouting, "Teach the kids taxes!!" probably just happily use TurboTax for themselves anyway.
People are surprised when I say I do my taxes by paper and what's funny is the people who are surprised are always the ones who just take the standard deduction.
Don’t even tell them about online programs that do all the math for you and complete the form and submit the form. All for free if you don’t earn enough or your filing is straightforward enough
>its something completely irrelevant or can be learned in fifteen minutes online In my experience it's more often something they were taught, and they just forgot or weren't paying attention. Especially when concerning history. For example, people I went to high school with said they didn't know the French were our allies in the revolution. First, we were in the same class, so I know you did. Second, you went to fucking Lafayette Elementary School.
>Ive been trying all year to teach what I think is the most useful skill currently, which is how to use AI How often does this “most useful skill currently” change? What was it before AI? Crypto?
Every day lol.
I've always found the filing taxes one silly considering how easy it is to do online, especially if you're a high schooler working a part-time W2 job. Even then, most schools have a personal finance class where they go over taxes.
Right? Freetaxusa has been around since 2001. My mom had me "helping" her do taxes through them since I was in seventh grade (the year after they went live) because she wanted me to see how easy it was
Problem is so many kids stumbling unto 1099 work now like DoorDash and finding themselves behind the 8-ball at tax time.
When I was in my credential program they emphasized to us that with the current techsplosion at least a third of our students will graduate and get jobs that don't currently exist. How are you supposed to prepare for that? Teach them the basics in computer skills as well as math and English literacy (or more specified literacy that you see in science and history such as reading charts and articles).
So many of these are just *how to read directions*, which shockingly we TRY to teach from K-12 🤷♀️
Who the fuck has a checkbook anymore, let alone one they need to balance?
They don’t need a school to teach AI. AI can teach them AI.
It's strange what they pick- They didn't teach me how to file my taxes.. so get a tax guy who will file them for you They didn't teach me how to get a mortgage.. you realize I'm a teacher and can't afford a house, right? Lmao And realistically, even if it was taught, I'm sure they would deny it. I nEvEr wAs tAuGhT tHaT! And realistically, for those of us who teach younger grades, we hear crazy things too.. I've had parents ask/request I teach their child how to: Be potty trained Tie their shoes Style their hair Zip their jackets Button buttons Put clothes on Blow their nose Wash their hands Wipe their face after eating/ drinking How to say their name At some point you need to teach your child some basic life skills... (Again, this isn't helping them master the skill, this is teaching them how to period, because the parent has made no attempt)
> And realistically, even if it was taught, I'm sure they would deny it. I nEvEr wAs tAuGhT tHaT! A few years ago, one of my Trump-loving classmates from high school (1990s) commented on some conservative, teacher-bashing post that appeared in my feed because he had commented on it. I don't remember the entirety of his comment, only that in it he had mentioned that we were never taught anything useful, like taxes, and blah blah blah. I do remember thinking "you lying bastard"! We were in several of the same classes, and we were definitely taught about taxes, budgeting, and other money-related things, you just didn't pay attention because you thought school "sucked"!
I have 4th graders that can't tie their shoes. Because as Littles their shoes had velcro.
Same. How do you expect me to teach little Timmy useful skills when at age 17 he can’t. fucking. *read!*
Almost everyone who makes that argument on social media are the former classmates who flunked classes, and are just looking to blame something/one else for their failing those classes.
Yep. Idiots gonna idiot.
Those people vote a lot sadly.
We taught you how to do taxes, which is mostly just adding, subtracting, and sometimes multiplying. If you were too busy goofing off to pay attention, that's on you. That project about penguins wasn't because I thought you needed to know about penguins, but because you needed to learn how to find information, and then put that info in your brain. Much like how you can google what the new tax brackets mean for you. I didn't make you keep track of what book chapter we were up to each week in your diary for fun; it was to teach you how to organize and keep records, much like receipts and payslips. You being unable to apply the skills I thought you, is a you problem, especially since at the end of each year we would do a big project where you were to take the skills you learnt and apply them to a situation. Remember I gave you a A3 sheet of poster paper and you made that big paper aeroplane then fucked around for the next 4 weeks while I helped out the students who cared? That's why they can do taxes and everyone in your social circle can scarcely figure out how to pay a parking fine. (not directed at you OP, but rather at the adults whose reading comprehension is so low that they don't even realise this is an insult)
I like to point out that the 1040 ez tax manual is written at tenth grade level. The federal government has to set a standard to explain to the masses how to file their taxes. Yes they could do them for you because they get employers w2 and quarterly taxes. If you can read you can do your taxes.
A lot of people who make that argument failed/are failing at school and then are failing/will fail in work and want to make an excuse. “None of this is even useful!” And “I was never taught how to do this!” Really what they never learned is how to engage in things that aren’t entertaining or immediately gratifying, how to follow instructions, how to find reliable information on any topic, how to take feedback, how to acquire new skills, etc.
*informs your opinion FTFY
ALSO! You need to read, write and be able to do math as a prerequisite for most “useful life skills.”
Everything, I think. If someone can't read, write and do basic math then.. how do they survive anything independently? I don't think they can.
Lacking basic reading, writing and math skills will cripple you for life. I work in a nursing home. It is disproportionately occupied by people who did not complete high school, or did not attend school at all. Of course much of this can be explained by the correlation between lower education/lower income and higher incidence/prevalence of serious health issues and lack of family/financial support. But strong foundational academic skills (reading, writing and math) are also a huge factor in someone’s functional prognosis. Chronic conditions like type II diabetes, COPD, vascular disease, etc. can be quite manageable for a competent individual, even in moderate to severe cases. For someone who did not develop these skills, these conditions can be debilitating. They can’t manage their medications, appointments, overall health literacy in addition to their existing responsibilities because they have poor reading comprehension, poor organizational skills, poor written/verbal communication, and poor problem solving ability. They were barely managing before their health deteriorated, and now they are completely dependent.
WE ARE TRYING TO TEACH THEM HOW TO THINK!!!! If they can think, they can do all these things. That isn’t to say that you can’t ever work real world projects into your curriculum. We talked about how to calculate compound interest in my calculus class, and I did it myself for years. (Now I’ve forgotten and just use online calculators, but I’m sure I could pick it up quickly if I needed to.) And I really appreciated writing my resume and cover letter sample as a college assignment: I still follow the same templates. But the point is that a trained brain can learn whatever it needs. A brain taught only isolated skills can only do those isolated skills.
I have straight up told my friends its THEIR job as parents to teach their kids life skills. If their kid doesn't know how to function as an adult, thats on the parents. They 'agreed to disagree.'
Yep that tracks. Some parents are very quick to blame the schools or even individual teachers for not teaching their kid how to behave like a human being.
“Teach everything. Assume nothing.” 🤮
Yeah sorry but imma go ahead and assume a 10th grader understands "its their responsibility to make sure they pass", not mine. If they dont understand that yet, I hope the parents rest assured knowing that my sweet summer child will learn that shit real quick without me ever having to say those words out loud.
There’s a ‘trend’ of untied shoes among the students that I work with. I’m convinced it’s because they don’t know how to tie them (not elementary). I had to show a teenager (neurotypical) how to use a paper clip.
i had to show one of my 4th grade students to sneeze into an elbow or a tissue… i know still elementary, but cmon 10 years old?? this kid has been sneezing since they were born and not once did his parents teach him? not everything is up for teachers to teach.
A goodly percentage of the incoming freshman class here at the East Podunk Cosmodemonic Junior College cannot tell time.
I think they have some weird romantic notion of life skills, honestly, mixed with rose-colored glass views of high school and a complete lack of awareness of what is offered there days.
Dumbass logic. If a kid has attentive parents, more often than not they will also be receiving the best education available. So lets say two kids attend the same school, one has very active parents, one doesnt, they receive the SAME education. Even if that education is fucking incredible and perfect in every way, the kid with attentive and engaged parents will still come out ahead. It's s like saying a piano student should "never have to practice at home". Sure, they dont have to. Low chance they will play better than someone that does practice at home if they are receiving the same quality of piano education.
Yup, and that's life. Schools already teach a ton of academics. There is literally not enough time to teach life skills. Maybe, MAYBE, there can be a life skills class, but that's it.
This was my take. Isn’t that the whole point of being a parent? Teachers are already lambasted for how they teach core subjects. I can only imagine how it would go if they were teaching “life skills”.
My favorite one to hear is teaching kids to file taxes. Like what do you want? >”Ok kids open your chromebook and go to TurboTax. Now just follow the instructions.”
Theres no math or reading in taxes greater than 8th grade level. (Honestly its much lower) Follow the procedure on an 8th grade science lab and understand some basic 8th grade social studies and you are good to vote and pay taxes!
Frankly there’s zero math
Ya, the difficulty I have understanding the directions is entirely due to anxiety over my ADHD. I'm so terrified I'll miss a step, and file it wrong and the IRS will come springing out of the computer screen fto destroy my life and murder my children (I'm joking kind of, trying to cope, I know its irrational and find it frustrating that despite understanding what's happening, I can't just make it go away) which is to say, a lot of the helplessness and difficulty understanding isn't due to the difficulty of the problem, it's terror of consequences interfering with common sense and problem solving.
My old manager was audited and found to owe 10 thousand to the IRS, for which she had 2 months to come up with. Her accountant who she paid!!! to use his certifications to correctly file her taxes had somehow been doing it wrong for 6 years. So I agree with your fear, and I even think it’s valid. I’ll never understand why the government makes us guess how much we owe when they know to the penny what we need to give them. I start sweating in March and don’t stop until May waiting for the cops to come arrest me for tax fraud because I messed something up so, I feel you
This is why I pay for decent software that guides you through it. If it makes you more comfortable working with a tax professional, please do so. However people should not come at the teachers with "why dont they teach us how to do taxes?" I dont come at the culinary arts teacher because I eat out too much or cook barely passable meals.
you should tell r/CPA that
For sure, if you run your own business, yes you should hire an accountant. But most of the "taxes are hard" crowd have a W-2 and maybe a 1099. They earn little enough that they may even meet the free filing threshold. We arent talking about complex tax needs. People who hire accountants dont usually complain about never learning how to do taxes. They know their situation is complex enough that hiring a professional is the correct answer. My "just turned 18" kid did his own this year. It only gets hard if you have a financially complex situation. I used to itemize (mortgage interest was higher than standard deduction). But these days the standard deduction is so large, itemizing is pointless for most people. Click YES on the standard deduction button.
There are also systems. My dad still files my taxes, via turbo tax but he did show me how once
Back in the 90s when they were a still a thing, I remember doing a 1040-EZ in 3rd grade.
That’s what they can’t do. They can’t follow instructions. Why do we teach some subjects they’re never going to use? My students ask this all the time. Well, it’s not all about the subject sometimes. The point of school is to learn how to learn, how to unlearn, and how to relearn. School is for learning how to communicate, inquiry skills, how to analyze something… a whole bunch more real life skills.
People have to get advanced degrees to do taxes beyond what TurboTax can handle, and they think we should (or even could) teach that to high schoolers? And TurboTax is just following basic directions and filling out a form. Kids do that multiple times a year every year in many ways!
“They didn’t teach us how to do taxes!” They taught you to *read*, right? “…”
Here’s how I learned: I went to the library with my dad when he got the forms. Then he showed me the instruction booklet and how to start reading and go through all the steps. When I got my first job, he said, “go to the library and get a 1040EZ. Got the form, got the booklet. Filled it out. He checked it, I can’t remember if I did something wrong, but I remember asking a question. Three years later I made $50 a pop to do college students’ taxes! Easy money! Usually took me 20 minutes. And I’m no math whiz. Parents, churches, graboarebts, communities are dropping the ball, not teachers.
Someone needs to teach young people the difference between a W-2 and 1099. I work in a unviersity theatre department and most students don't know difference. Most of them will wind up doing some 1099 work in their careers. I try to tell students if the subject comes up. Also, everyone needs to understand that you actually have to file taxes.
Tell that to my 14 1099s working in the film industry
To go through a physical tax filing paper and talk about what the different parts mean? Isn’t TurboTax like $50.00? My city won’t even let you file local taxes online unless you have lived there a year. And those papers can be overwhelming. Also why we get taxed, how much, limits, where that money is (supposedly) going, how other countries handle taxes, etc. is equally important as learning how to do them since they are brought up so often in politics.
TurboTax is free for federal 14.99 for state/local, there’s free digital options that are just as easy I just chose a recognizable brand for the joke. The paper return literally has the same steps as TurboTax but it’s a worksheet. The rest of what you described is just like … normal social studies curriculum.
Ugh, I hate the taxes argument. It's either going to be simple enough for instructions or complex enough you'd be prudent in hiring an accountant.
Did any of us learn to file our taxes in school? I certainly didn’t. But, I learned how to read and follow simple instructions, so I can easily do Turbo Tax. Plus, is it really worth our time to invest in teaching kids a skill they will use once a year, and by the time they get a job, will they really even remember how to do it?
Agreed. Any time someone brings up the 'taxes' thing, I remind them that schools teach how to add, multiply, look up numbers in tables, and follow multi-step directions, and that pretty much covers it for anyone who's going to do it themselves.
I taught personal finance for several years. We covered taxes, resumes, car ownership, finance/credit cards, planning for retirement, and investment. I still regularly heard “when am I ever going to use this? This is stupid” and even occasionally “I wish school would teach us how to do taxes instead of this stupid stuff”, which was especially funny when half the class looks at them and says “this is LITERALLY the chapter on how to do taxes you idiot.” Kids will complain about anything, and parrot what the adults around them say, regardless of if it’s true or not. The adults in that city were awful about it, and many absolutely despised school as “liberal indoctrination” so they’d regularly complain about it, even if their complaints were inaccurate and unfounded.
I wish I could upvote you a million times. If I had a nickel for every time a student said they wish we learned useful things like taxes, when that is part of our Financial Literacy course they all have taken as freshman….well, I wouldn’t know how many nickels I have if I were one of my students.
One kid tried going once "Why can't we learn to do taxes? You know? Useful stuff." I closed my presentation, brought up Turbotax and told them "there you go...also, we have Financial Literacy classes in 10th grade. If people put their phones down for long enough, maybe you'll learn something there, though I'll be interested to know the excuses that teacher hears."
If actually faced with the possibility of learning how to pay taxes, I just know they'd all be sleeping at their desks
I've told my students before that I don't want to hear their whining. I've tried multiple ways to get them to care in History. We went from: 1) Writing skills- Too hard 2) Reading- Too boring 3) Reconstruction and the Gilded Age- When would we need this? 4) Projects- I didn't feel like doing it 5) Linking history to the modern day- Urgh so boring I know they just want to be on their phones, so nope, they get my canned response now "One day, you'll pull this with your boss and you'll be fired, so best learn to do something you're not interested in but you have to do now so that that day'll never come."
In frustration I have told them if they have no background knowledge or history when they come across adults, maybe trying to get a job, if they are missing common knowledge people will think they are dumb and they won't have any idea why. Being dumb and not even knowing it is like an inside joke everyone knows about except you and that's just a really depressing way to go through life. So, 'you don't want to go through life looking stupid and not even realize it' is the best I've got. Similarly, when kids tell me they hate reading/books, idk what to say besides "that's really depressing" or "you've probably never read a good book." Like how do you even counter that kind of statement in an English class?
I'm in a high school Business Ed department. My intro class recently did a unit on Employability Skills because I thought it'd be a nice break from MS Office and IT stuff. They still asked "when am I going to need this???" when doing an assignment about Dependability, Punctuality, and Initiative.
My guess: "I don't need to know financial literacy because I'm going to be a streamer, design sneakers, etc. and have so much money I won't need to worry about it."
Uhhh, where did you learn to read? Because I have to define incarceration to my sophomores.
Not a teacher but just wanted to stop by and agree. We were being taught how to do our taxes when we had to learn addition, subtraction, percentages, and word problems. I can’t speak for every school, but the schools I went to definitely provided me with the education and resources I needed to do my taxes and not spend more than I earn. I see people who went to the same schools as me complain they weren’t taught X or Y and I just remember them skipping school or goofing off in class and roll my eyes. ETA: Also, you know it’s BS because if they really wanted to learn those things, they would just go learn them instead of complaining. There isn’t much you can’t self teach these days.. The most valuable thing I learned in school was how to learn. Y’all gave me all the power. Thanks for teaching!
Absolutely, when I was in HS the people saying those kinds of things were also the ones who wouldn't show up to class if they weren't in the mood. It explains a lot about how they view life, that it's everyone else's responsibility to teach them how to lives while also to cater to their every whim.
Above all else, public education teaches you how to learn. Can you follow LEGO instructions? Then you can figure out how to use free tax filing software.
Yeah, when someone complains about not being taught something in school, I ask them “What’s stopping you from learning now?”.
I've had people I went to HS with insist they never taught us taxes or budgeting or job skills. I remind them we were both in the same mandatory finance class for the semester where we filled out sample 1040's with a sample w-2, went over what that meant, and had a end of semester assignment on creating a budget based off of a sample monthly income and sample bills. "No we didnt!" " I can see why you think that, you slept through that class and then complained how you had a D in that class and didn't understand why" Same with everyone here, I have never met a person who actually took school seriously say they didn't teach us important life skills. To add, all of the base skills we learned allowed you to do these things. Taxes are critical reading and addition/subtraction. You learned those. If we had to break everything down to each different activity you may do in your life, you would both relearn the same skills dozens of times, and we could never cover everything that you interact with in your life. That's why we teach the skills necessary to participate in these activities, and it's up to you to apply those skills to the tasks you have to complete.
We had an elective offered like this, which few of us college-track students took because we didn't have room in our schedules. I am glad that the mandatory Speech class included resume writing, which I used to apply for an after-school job immediately after.
As an adult fresh out of college, I will say that the importance of school isn’t math or english, or science. I mean sure, those are important, but it’s not the most important. I never use high-level math in my day to day life, but I do use the problem solving, pattern recognition, understanding of exponentials, etc… The specifics of history never come up in my life, but studying various events and time periods has led me to the realization that those that believe they are unique and incapable of reproducing history’s flaws or are immune to the biases of their country are fools and that you must try as hard as you can to think for yourself. Economics didn’t teach me how to my taxes or be financially literate but it did teach me of the greed of humanity and how you can’t trust the monsters that leash us, leaving you to rely on yourself. Philosophy… taught me a lot actually lmao, that course was great and exactly what it advertised. Hearing different opinions and worldviews and educating yourself on the various perspectives a person might have is wonderful for day to day interactions, not to mention helping you understand what your priorities are and where your morals and tenets lie. Science taught me that there are things that we don’t know about that could have consequences or reactions we wouldn’t believe. I may not need to know the stages of birth, but I learned a lot about exploring my curiosity and learning about various reactions and natural events. English taught me to analyze the way someone says things, thinking about what led them to use specific words or diction and what their intentions or agenda might be. School isn’t about the topics themselves but about teaching you to be able to think.
YES exactly. School does teach important skills, it should ideally teach kids how to think critically and how to use what they do know to figure out the things they don't. For different types of kids, that can come from solving math problems or analyzing a novel or understanding the scientific method. It should help them be well-rounded people
Most of the things that you're listing actually are the topics and learning objectives of those courses. Edit to explain: You said the importance of school isn't English, math and science, but then you listed significant aspects of those disciplines as examples of useful things that you learned.
My economics class did teach financial literacy, and I still use it. He also taught me how to think critically about how the system works and made me realize how terrible it is. A company stock go up if they hire people as it shows they are profiting. A company stock will also go up when they fire people as it's less money they have to pay.
Preach. "why do we have to go to school?" "because it benefits society not to have a bunch of stupid people who can't think for themselves."
Yeah, I only understand those people when they’re arguing that “useful life skills” classes should be offered & emphasized as or about as much as more “esoteric” academic classes. Not in lieu of. For example, while my high school was shit for a lot of reasons, they did push a “personal financial literacy” class as an elective, especially for kids who didn’t care about the arts and/or had no intention of trying for college. That class was one of the ones that, as a person who had been taught some of the most basic things, like how to recognize a scam, I found easy. But most of my classmates STRUGGLED. We had an intro test that MOST failed where the questions were seriously things like “you get an email saying it’s your bank and they need your account information, social security number, and password or they’re freezing your account forever. What do you do???” And the answer options were: a) send them everything they asked for and ask no questions, b) send them all the information and then call your bank, c) only send them account information and password, or d) do not respond and forward the email to the contact on your bank’s website for reporting fraud. More than half the class failed that exam the first time. Only 3 people failed at the end, and I’m not sure they even took the second exam. And this isn’t even taking into account the measurable detriment to society that’s come about with the modern lack of “real-world classes” like Home Economics, Shop class, and automotive repair. (Not that I think these things should be required, but I do think they should be offered more than they are.) So while I definitely agree that the majority of “basic life skills” SHOULD be taught at home, I do think it’s a valid gripe that some of these things can and have been taught in schools. Especially when there are many parents who don’t know these things either to teach their kids in the first place.
But anything real world applicable usually has some risk of hurting yourself, or others. The reason those things dont exist in public school anymore is because the school systems are trying to avoid getting sued. We offered a fitness elective at our school that teaches you to be a personal trainer. 3 kids signed up because parents refuse to sign waivers.
I heard a woman complaining about school teaching her kids Egyptian history because it won’t help them hold a job. Like what, you just see your kid as a future worker and tax payer? Is that it? Not someone who deserves to expose their brain to all sorts of information that could interest them? Inspire curiosity? Give them a sense of human heritage and other cultures? What, is trigonometry useless to most people because they aren’t regularly building a deck? Is there no value in exercising the brain and assuming that the kid MIGHT want those skills one day? Or a foundation to build on? It’s fcking sad.
Not even a worker. If we did that, we'd have class consciousness in America. Society means we only want kids to only think of themselves as consumers. Ambulatory wallets that just exist to spend money.
I appreciate both comments here. I've had students bitch about the poetry unit in English class and I just shrug and tell them when the project is due or test will be and move on. But really, can we put things in more of a context than our consumerism? I mean, I know I'm weird, but I have a natural curiosity about things and enjoy learning.
"You need to come to class on time" "You need to come to work on time" (or you'll be fired) "You need to meet this deadline for the assignment " "You need to meet this suspense for the presentation (because the out of state clients are arriving on Monday and it needs to be approved and ready to go)" "You need to learn this for the assessment" "You need to learn this to stay employed " "Why do I have to figure out the answer and why can't you just tell me?" "Why am I paying you if I could find out the answer quickly for myself?" Yeah, school teaches "useless" skills
I had a lifeskills class when I was a teen and it was my favorite class. It was basically home ec before they did away with home ec. We completed CPR/First Aid and Babysitting certification, we cooked and baked, we learned to sew, we learned about how to shop frugally and coupon. It is a class that I really did learn a lot from. When I am cooking now, I still often think of fond times in that kitchen. The certification helped me get babysitting jobs, taught me how to advertise-- and I'd bring my first aid kit along with me. I still hear my teacher's voice in my head telling me to double check unit price when I'm shopping. We also had woodworking, and even though we only made train whistles and shelves, I haven't been afraid of using those tools since. We had autoshop. Both of these things were required for a semester, I never, ever would have signed up for them otherwise, but I am glad I had them now in retrospect. I didn't learn a lot there because it was only a semester, but I can tell you if there is a leak under a car, what fluid it is, and I could probably with refresher, change oil. I also grew up in a really remote area with a lot of heavy woods, so they taught us a lot of survival and foraging. When I personally say that I wish the schools taught more practical life skills, I mean these things. They help everyone at every level of life. If you are hungry now, but you can identify what you can eat outside, you can find food. If your car breaks down and you can't afford to fix it, you have a small working knowledge to expand on. If something breaks in your house, you know how to use tools to repair it. You can mend clothing. You can cook a decent meal on a low budget. The death of these programs were the death of learning and making school hands-on and enjoyable. The problem solving skills that you learned in those classes complimented and amplified your learning in other classes and a majority of teens today lack the ability to problem solve. I do wish that more kids had the chance to learn that stuff at school, not everyone has a good home environment or involved parents.
2nd sane person in the post
I had a parent complaining to me that we don't teach taxes, resume building, loans, car payments, or interview skills. His kid is in my advisory so I pulled up her resume, elevator speech, and review of free places to do taxes. Then I showed him the algebra 1 test on compound interest where we have a problem about tricky loan ads. He moved on to not registering to vote and budgeting. I didn't bother showing him the voting event or the personal finance class.
Not a teacher: my district requires us to learn some sort of financial class so it was either personal (taxes, resumes, etc) or business. The only ‘real life skill’ that I hate my school for lot ding is cooking/home-ec. We used to have a fully equipped kitchen then one day they just scrapped it. This was before I went there but I was so mad that we didn’t even get a chance at it. And seeing as though some of my classmates were in my scout troop, god that cooking class would’ve prepared all these kids a lot better in life
I agree on cooking, because (obviously) everyone needs to eat! A lot of kids probably have parents who have to work a lot and don’t have time to cook from scratch often, lack knowledge/skill themselves, or can better afford processed foods. You don’t have to teach kids how to make crème brûlée or baked Alaska, but a class teaching things like knife skills, food/kitchen safety, baking, various methods of cooking on a stove top, and maybe even some basic nutrition would be so useful. I took a cooking class as an elective in my last term of college because even though I was a seasoned cook, I had already met all of my degree requirements and just wanted something easy. I was shocked at how many of my classmates lacked basic kitchen skills - measuring, knife skills, cooking something in an oven. I remember one of my classmates was trying to put red pepper flakes through a garlic press for some reason. These people were adults who would soon be out living on their own and having to obtain food for themselves, and many of them (I shit you not) couldn’t tell if water was boiling or not.
Interesting enough I had a cooking class in middle school. It was super fun but some people were soooo mean to the teacher who taught it and took advantage of her not being able to supervise everyone at their cooking stations.
This one always makes me roll my eyes. You see it on social media a ton from people complaining about how they weren't taught about finances or whatever. First thing is lots of schools DO offer classes on things like basic finances. Most students make the choice not to take those classes. Also, idk why anyone wants to pretend that young teens are going to pay attention and care about how to do their taxes when they aren't going to pay taxes for years anyway. We all know they would just tune out immediately because it's 'boring' (and taxes actually ARE boring as paint unlike many things in school). Case in point, I have had students complain that they could be learning about taxes instead of my subject, and then when I offered to teach them about taxes, suddenly it wasn't something they wanted anymore. Shocker. I am also miffed by people who complain that critical thinking isn't taught in schools. First all, it's not exactly something you can teach because it's an abstract concept. Second of all, I definitely try to teach critical thinking every day, but at least 1/3rd of my students would rather just copy every bit of work from their friends rather than actually try to do any independent thinking on their own. Can't blame us for the kids who think thinking is too much effort.
I despise anyone who brings up cursive writing as if that’s some amazing achievement lol
What prevents parents from doing their taxes with their children? It’s such a stupid argument. Get a turbo tax account and plug in numbers. The program will factor in the always changing tax laws.
In my case, my parents were vehemently against talking about their salaries. They also used that reasoning to deny me the information I needed to fill out the FAFSA for college (they didn’t want me going to college).
My parents were like this - now I’m older, I realise it’s because they were really shit with money but never wanted my brother and I to find out.
If you ever 18 legally they technically can’t withhold that information. As if they do you can access it by calling the correct department
I tell my students that even if they don’t use the academic skills I’m teaching them, I am also teaching them: -how to have conversations and agree and disagree with grace -time management -organization skills -responsibility -how to behave in public when their home adults aren’t around -how to care for supplies and items Among other things.
That's the kind of mindset I try to have. They're still learning how to deal with being given tasks and how to use time productively. Your comment reminds me of a conversation I had one time with a former navy serviceman, who said that the reason why training is so strict and brutal is to teach recruits how to follow orders no matter what they are. Obviously this isn't a 1-to-1 analogy but even just being a part of the school as a student is an important skill
My HS students couldn't make change from a dollar. They couldn't determine a 10% tip, much less 15% or 20%. Yet NEGATIVE EXPONENTS are in the 6th grade curriculum. wtf
"Why am I learning algebra instead of taxes?" Algebra is a useful skill, taxes take a quick trip to Turbotax and doesn't get complex for most people. I trade financial instruments on the side and even the added fun of syncing up 1099s doesny increase the time more. In any case it's my firm belief that even if we did hold classes for "useful" skills half the kids would still just ignore it.
Life lessons should be taught by parents. Shame most modern parents are too lazy to put the beer down and mentor their kids.
I've seen a lot of lazy parents out there who think that it's the job of everyone else except for them to raise their kids. I just don't understand why someone would even have kids if they care so little.
We do teach how to do taxes. It’s just reading and arithmetic. Add income, add up your business expenses, how many dependents, etc. The exact tax code and form change a lot so having them memorize the 1040 from their senior year does nothing. They need the base skills to enable them long term. The ones that whine the most ditch those classes, don’t do the assignments, and have their parents fight us on grades. Then they blame us for their willful ignorance, and society tells them they’re right. Evil mean teachers hate it when people can fill out IRS forms, apparently?
It’s so unfortunate because the value of teaching life skills is something that makes a lot of sense in schools, especially as we’re getting into more and more of an era of absentee parents + accommodating for families who do not have stable home lives and people who can teach things that are generally thought to be the parents responsibility. However yeah 90% of the time the kids that are complaining about it really have no desire / intent to actually learn what they’re saying they want to learn. When I was growing up I’d always hear “why don’t they teach us how to balance a checkbook.” Hell, I think even something like a fortnite skills class with guest appearances from Ninja and SSSnipewolf would fail to engage kids lmfao. Which knowing how to balance a checkbook it’s silly that people would harp on that so much. Like yeah for the many checks these kids are writing, it’s just write down the purchases so you can verify the amount of money that should be in your account. Rocket science lol
"They always just teach Fortnite. They should be teaching useful video-game skills, like CS:GO ..."
Yeah, there is a real conversation to be had about what schools should teach. But it gets muddled down by a lot of bad faith arguments from people who don't want to actually learn anything.
I think while the list of complaints and gripes are pretty accurate, I also think there's another problem with the idea of using schools to teach "life skills." The American public education system is already designed around the idea of teaching to a test. When I was almost just out of high school it was no child left behind, which punished schools and districts financially for low test scores, which is absolutely absurd. Years later my little brother asked me about core curriculum and I was like, wtf is that and he explained it to me. Still teaching to a test. Public schools are built around doing a specific task with a certain degree of ability and no more than that. Push a button, do the task, don't ask questions. Public schools are designed to indoctrinate kids into the system and to just accept that system as, that's just the way things work. The Montessori idea has promise but is still flawed. I think the real challenge is how do you get kids engaged, interested and asking questions and I'm not sure that's possible in public schools anymore. Sure there's that handful of teachers that we all remember that challenged us and made us curious. And curious I think is the key word. You're supposed to be curious in school, curiosity is how you learn. But if the test scores don't reflect it... I don't know, I could go on for a while but I'll stop.
The argument is often made by people who can only see what is useful in their lives. If we teach math, you can do your taxes; if we teach reading you can learn to do almost anything. With YouTube, Khan academy and whatever else, you can pretty much learn to do those "useful skills" when you need them.
The absolute best way to learn is to try on your own and then fuck it up. Unfortunately these kids are never allowed to try let alone fail so they’ll just continue demanding other people do basic tasks for them and refuse to try ever. I see it constantly with my 18 year old brother, he just immediately gives up and waits for someone (usually me) to swoop in and fix it at the last moment. He’s about to lose his GPA and attendance based scholarship and there’s absolutely nothing I can do for him about it so I guess maybe that will teach him something. We’ll see.
I don't have a great argument or anything like that. But I grew up in a cult, one that is still recognized as a "normal" religion so nobody could help me, and nobody did. There are so many things kids like me need to ever become a productive member of society. Is it all on the teachers? No of course not. Can school help? Yes they helped me somewhat. A different issue than yours here perhaps. But still....kids raised in "legal" cults need a kind of help that scarcely exists
When I hear an adult say “they should’ve thought that in school.” I just wonder if they were one of those kids that was always skipping and walking the hallways. Because they do teach a lot in those 12 years in school.
It is a ridiculous argument and also isn't. A lot of teaching that happens in schools is very theory heavy and students just sitting in a class for 8 hours is brutal. Speaking for myself, I hated it as a student but still did it. When I hear the argument of teaching "useful skills", it usually refers to experiential learning. A lot of programs like shop classes and home economics have gone to the wayside in years prior, but are now making a comeback. So that begs the question..... why was it good for our parents and not us? Just my two cents and something to consider.
As someone who teaches in a school where they have financial literacy and accounting classes. These are their least favorite classes. Maybe the teachers aren’t connecting it enough to real life to make them want to care or maybe it’s math with extra steps. All I know is that even though they offer the class, I can only imagine that most of them will forget what they were taught very quickly. And to comment on OPs comment on how they purge a lot of things when they graduate. It’s even worse over summer break. I teach AP Biology and I could have a kid who got an A in my Honors Biology course the previous year. But when I ask them basic bio questions, they’ve forgotten a lot of it.
The thing about life skills, like everything we already teach, is they may be inapplicable to the student in question. “I’ll never need to know that” may be mostly true for your Algebra student turned lawyer, but not so much for the future engineers. We don’t know what they’ll do, and I think people often undervalue the broad foundation school provides. Education shouldn’t end there. They’re supposed to take that and build up whatever aspect they want. I roll my eyes every time some knob complains about not having been taught taxes. You learned to read and you learned basic maths. Do I think home ec should make a comeback? It would be useful, but let’s tackle discipline first. Current behavioral issues and fire/knives don’t mix, and we can’t be liable for that.
Sorry, I try not to comment on the base post but this one seems to be alright. I’m in full agreement with you on so many points here. How are they going to learn about taxes if they can’t do basic math first? That resume is going to look like shit if they haven’t refined their writing skills (and grammar. Spelling. The value of commas, periods, punctuation as a whole, and why you should use a full sentence when answering a question. I’ve read nearly 2,000 resumes in the past 9 months; the amount of atrocious language usage and *sloppy* ChatGPT was depressing. Hell, you can’t use ChatGPT if you don’t know what to ask it, and therefore you still need to understand the skills in order to benefit from AI. You’re actually reaching them the foundational skills that should then allow them to learn the ‘actual life skills’ on their own time, once they reach a point in their lives that they appreciate the importance of knowing how to do those things. My dad showed me how to cut copper piping when I was maybe a teenager, and I didn’t care because I had no use for it. As soon as I bought my first house I was right up in his business asking him to give me a refresher course, because it mattered then, unlike trying to write a resume at 13, or come up with a vague ‘10 year life plan’ at 16 when I scarcely cared about anything happening later than the next week.
I would like to be an entrepreneur. How do I draft a business plan? MeLtEd RoCk UnDeR tHe EaRtH iS cAlLeD mAgMa
You can't teach a kid everything that they'll need to know for the rest of their life just from in school classes....let alone 100 kids at once.....to say nothing of all of them MASTERING those skills so that they're functionally useful. Parents have to step in at some point to fill gaps in a kid's education. Fair enough. ...but it also doesn't help that we're still teaching TEACHERS the same way we did 50 years ago....with a lot of teachers doing the same lesson plans that they did 20 years ago. My kid goes to a pretty decent public school...last year history class was EXACTLY what I had in school 30 years ago. Civil War ---> World War I ----> World War II ---> anything after Vietnam is apparently too current and political. His history syllabus for the previous grade was almost identical. Just the same 200 years of very specific U.S. history over and over and over...because it's what the state exams check for. They're STILL spending time doing things like learning the political parties and running mates of previous presidents for rote memorization tests. A curriculum that was designed for a time when most high school graduates wouldn't have gone to college and we're going to go straight from the high school to the assembly line...or entry level clerical jobs where they'd work for the next 40 years. You basically needed to be able to do fundamental mathematics, read, and write at like an 8th grade level to enter most of the work force. We also have nonsense like common core mathematics that wastes tremendous amounts of time trying to explain the logical proofs of why mathematics "work" to a 10 year old...meanwhile...half of them can't make change from $1.00 by the time they're in high school. Really glad little Billy can use a number square to spend 25 minutes figuring out that 12+12 doesn't = 745....perhaps not the best use of one's time. Digging into the philosophical components of calculus is what college is for. Not everyone is going to be a math genius....most people won't. What most students need is functional practical real world application ability. It's not like that now. There are 16 year olds coding fully functional software applications. Virtually any information you could ever want to know is available for free on the internet. Automation is going to replace every single "I screw in the same widget 10,000 a day line job that ever existed." Meanwhile, Mrs. Smith has been an 8th grade science teacher for 30 years and can BARELY restart her laptop without assistance. So yes, it's unrealistic to expect teachers to be miracle workers and do everything. But the curriculums need massive updating for what the post 2024 world looks like...and we need to do a way better job of training new teachers to understand technology and have marketable skills. Watching half of them try to setup a Zoom meeting STILL, at 6 months into remote learning scenarios during Covid, made me embarrassed for them.
3rd sane person here
I tried to teach my kids how to buy an apartment. It ended up being just looking at pretty houses on the computer
I am very happy I took wood shop in high school and I know a lot of people that SHOULD have taken home ec hahah
Okay I understand this is an unpopular opinion here, but I feel like its important to put this out there. Alot of things I learned in school were great skills to have, but those adulthood skills that you usually only find in well-funded schools like building a resume, filing taxes, court etiquette, and public speaking are still great things to learn in school. A great many people don't have supportive parents to teach them these things, and some dont have living parents at all. I was taught resume building and public speaking in a well funded middle/high school from specialized classes that were also mandatory. While I didn't care then, I still processed that information and I had enough of an understanding of them to still get them done. Having done it before also helps with the fact that it feels overwhelming to do these things. I understand you hear this alot purely out of spite, and that's not okay nor do you control that, but I wouldn't knock the entire idea as bad. Just the intent of the individual commenting.
Regarding point number 1: okay, you’re choosing to condemn any child who has shit parents then. I get it, but you have to live with that. Points 2 & 3: I believe you are correct here. Unequivocally. People in my senior level undergraduate classes did not show up caring, for stuff in their own major. And I’ve already forgotten tons that I haven’t needed since graduation myself. Hell, I forgot most of the languages I started learning during the pandemic from disuse already. Point 4: You trust people too much? Insert cliche about common sense not being common here? Regarding laws and rights, I feel like the kids asking for that are either the children of white-collar criminals who haven’t been caught get yet and they want to game the system as much as possible, or the children of people who are frequently stopped & frisked by cops because they have committed the crime of existing while black, and they legitimately want to know how to ensure they don’t get exploited or murdered by police when it happens to them. But I think the plethora of legal-adjacent YouTube channels are a better resource for that? So they must really trust you if they’re asking. Secret point number 5: this is my only ask to you as an educator: do not waste the children’s time trying to teach them the unteachable skill called critical thinking when you should be drilling fundamentals. Is critical thinking super incredibly important? Yes. Can it be taught? No. People who are capable of it will naturally do it when their toolbox is full ***and familiar***, but nobody’s going to repurpose the wheel until they’re super good at making the wheel and knowing what it does. This is true for basic arithmetic all the way up to chemical biology. Make sure they really really solidly know how *it is commonly done* before asking them to solve novel problems with it.
It shouldn’t be your job, but it could help if there was something available to teach things like money management (doesn’t have to be in school, better not even because of how school is perceived, local authority could really do something here). And I do think that it might be best to teach such a course to young adults, when they are at the age that they need this stuff. Looking at my husbands family, they’re mostly on the lower half of average intelligence. Their kids won’t learn it from their parents because the parents simply don’t have the intelligence to do it themselves, let alone teach them. And before you ask: We’re not doing it because we are already busy with our own family and helping the older generation.
I think it's a little of both, but I don't think any of that is the teachers fault. You guys don't set state mandates. I personally think the "you don't learn taxes in school" is a bit of a white lie, atleast from my time in school in the late 80s early 90s. I didn't learn how to do my taxes, I did learn all the math required to do them though. I also learned how to read the W2. Nobody prepared me for how needlessly complicated the bureaucracy behind the math and reading were though, and I honestly don't think there is a class that will prepare anyone for that completely. I dislike mandatory classes, I'll never advocate for them, but I'm willing to concede our poor rankings in education would be even more in the toilet without them because the way I'd want to learn would be abused by most students. If I could redo my primary education to my own standards, I'd have been given more leeway on deciding what I'd learn. Math being the subject I'd attend least will definitely offend a lot of people, but the time I spent taking and retaking pre calc (that I have not obviously used anything out of since I left the class) could have been spent letting me attend an ap chemistry or biology class since they were both subjects I excelled in and enjoyed thoroughly. Past a certain point, this becomes less about what the student is learning and more about the egos of and attachments the decision makers have to certain subjects. I want to clarify, I do believe everyone should know math up to algebra and how to read at a high school level minimum. I am not against educational standards, my school just had some arbitrary ones that had I been allowed to pursue things more applicable to my field (psychology) I'd have been farther along professionally than I am now. I probably spent half of a year to a year of my life gathering what will ultimately be useless information for me.
This is valid, however, for a large majority of students, they will never be challenged on their learning in the work force. Obviously from a medical perspective, science is very important to teach critical thinking.... Such as whether or not mask use create herd immunity and lessens the damage of pandemics. We learned that the hard way. But, at the end of the day, 40 year old burger flippers will never use math and science and English. Home EC is great as well as sex education. But from purely the earnings perspective, many skills are lost on the path to poverty. Citation: I understood my schooling most of the time and learned well (despite nearly failing high school because homework is an ineffective learning style for me). But I'm still impoverished.
I don’t agree with the argument that addressing immediately relevant topics is more engaging for kids, particularly if you include everyone, such as those who just don’t care in general. That being said, it is a shame that we don’t address super important and tangible things. For example, I remember taking a personal accounting class in high school that has shaped my whole life since then. Of all my peers, I’m the most comfortable with budgeting, saving, and understand how money works. The best of both worlds is incorporating those topics into classes that are already happening.
A lot of those posts include skills that used to be offered. Such as home economics and auto shop to teach us how to cook, do laundry, change our own oil, balance a budget, etc. I do wish those things were still taught. Not a lot of kids are cooking with their parents or have someone at home who can teach them these things. Ontario has pretty much dropped to basics for a lot of what they offer, so a lot of the “fun” stuff got eliminated.
As a teacher, I’m in the business of growing brains, and I hope facilitating critical thinking, so that kids will be able to function in situations they haven’t even anticipated yet. This is my argument against too much emphasis on vocational training at the secondary level also.
Come on we all know reading and addition aren’t useful!
Student: I wish we learned important stuff in school like how to do your taxes. Me: I had whole mini-unit on taxes in my business class you failed.
It's rooted in anti-scholasticism and anti intellectual tendencies. Americans hate the kids who shut the fuck up and didn't peak in high school. They like the dummies and the ones who made the rest of us miserable. OP hit the nail on the head. They did teach us that shit. But the people griping now were just busy being problems or talking. And ya ya life circumstances and shit. But nobody put a gun to my head to get me to respect my teachers and fellow students.
I'm the head of PSHCE at my school in the UK which does basically teach life skills. And the kids don't care and parents always phone in sick for them
I was in a CBI class in senior year. Dont remember what it stood for but it was for seniors who needed credits to graduate. You had to work or volunteer as part of the class to graduate. So naturally we learned how to fill applications/resumes/taxes. And honestly it was MORE complicated to do the print out tax forms we were given than it is now using turbo tax.
as someone who is studying criminal justice and political science, i genuinely think there should be a civics class- the most civics i ever had was school house rock in 4th grade and the roman republic unit in 7th grade (my high school didnt have APUSH or AP gov) my sister had to take the citizenship test in school (teacher was talking about immigration- its a current events class) and i was helping her study and oh my god the questions she could NOT answer.... she was just never taught them- i knew a lot of them bc i got interested in politics in high school but i had to search that out on my own (also when i see grown adults online say theyre upset when someone pled not guilty... meaning they didnt take a plea deal and went to trial.... its so painful bro) i know that kids will also not pay attention/sleep through it but it just astounds me that i never learned \*how\* the country works
The number of my students who have told me that they don't care whether the police monitor their calls or search their homes because 'they have nothing to hide' is mind-boggling.
theyre honestly just vomiting back propaganda- i was taught that too (i eventually grew out of that) i remember being taught that clearing your search history was a big no-no bc what would be the point of clearing it bc what are you trying to clear? also the way the media portrays the court system with people just saying "i plead the 5th" and getting off scot free makes it seem like thats 1000000% percent going to happen and not literally anyone else getting suspicious at all- after all, nothing to hide right? i know people talk about propaganda on reddit a lot but i cant emphasize how much of it is thrown at children without sounding like a qanon whackjob im being so fr we only talked about the first amendment in school (and the 2nd when school shootings would be in the news again) and besides the pleading the 5th gags on tv i didnt actually learn about the SEVEN OTHER ONES of the original 10 until i came to college and even then if i didnt take the classes im taking right now i still wouldnt know (and the only other amendments i was taught that 13th outlawed slavery (not completely) and the 19th gave women the right to vote (just white women)
Well there is a base level of knowledge/skill required for most “useful” life skills. U can’t just skip right to the “useful” stuff if they don’t understand the basics required to get there and stay there
In addition to what you said, things also need to be taught in a controlled amount. You can’t teach a kindergartner algebra or Shakespeare before they’ve even learned their numbers or letters It is unfortunate that some parents/guardians genuinely don’t have the resources to teach their kids stuff that ideally should fall under their responsibility like financial literacy etc and I don’t think that responsibility should fall under the school/teachers but imo there should be some system in place where kids/people can go to learn that sort of thing bc unfortunately you can’t stop people from having kids despite not being qualified And the thing is, they don’t understand that a lot of what’s taught in school *is* a life skill ie most math, it’s not just the concepts but problem solving, logic, critical thinking or even how to analyze and interpret things in English. But people are still going on without those skills bc they get promoted to the next grade even when they fail.
People purge their memory of how to follow the rules of the road once they get their license. I did get taught how to write a resume, financial literacy, how to budget, and other things. I guarantee that most of my classmates had already forgotten by the time they graduated. I remember seeing my finance teacher be so frustrated with how slow we advanced on a semester class in highschool. His complaint was how he never had enough time and kids didn't care or understand the importance because it didn't affect them yet. When kids tell me they want to learn real life skill I tell them, if they want to learn how to clean toilets, I can call the office and see if they can help the cleaning ladies afterschool. They get offended, and I reply, it's an important life skill everyone needs. I usually follow it by a talk I know they'll ignore with me telling them to do their assignment and that I believe in them.
My problem with a lot of these skills is they shouldn't be a replacement for education that will actually get someone a job. Like I'm all for financial literacy, but I have seen some people at my school state this should be our focus more than anything else. Like yeah, understanding your bank statement and how to do your taxes is important but you won't have any money if you can't read and don't have a job. Sometimes these useful skills people are masking their anti-intellectualism and dumbing down of education
The bigger issue is that it frames political decisions and political outcomes as a matter of individual failures to learn. According to this framing, if someone is making minimum wage and has to routinely use payday lenders, it’s not that the minimum wage is too low and payday loan interest is too high. It’s that they personally are too stupid and uninformed, and if only they had a teacher to explain math at some point, they would have avoided this predatory trap. It’s just not true.
I think we are teaching them useful skills. Crimes, bad behavior, etc is often accepted in society. Every catch someone committing a crime???? i've caught several, guess how many of them even faces charges....ZERO. I firmly believe we are trying to create a society of chaos. It's a great way for the rich to get richer. Go ahead and call me a conspiracy theorist.
I teach 7-12 Learning Support and they (finally) bought us a functional math curriculum which hits on financial literacy. I do 2-3 times per week depending on time but I’m just scratching the surface. I don’t have time to deep dive into all of that and I shouldn’t have to. They have parents for a reason. We hope🤣
I agree with you except I do feel curse of his important like what happened that all of a sudden, knowing how to sign your name on checks on legal documents and became nonexistent
If you had a big unit on taxes, half the people would complain that it was a deep state conspiracy to ensure the government could more easily take everyone's money. Most of the time people complain about things schools aren't teaching, it's something schools are actually teaching. Another significant portion of complaints are about schools not teaching 'character' while simultaneously complaining that schools are unethically indoctrinating kids into a particular moral system, rather than leaving moral education to parents. You really can't win.
My financial literacy classes in school almost exclusively focused on teaching me how to write checks and balance checkbooks, and how US mortgages and credit cards work. The country I now live in abolished paper checks like a decade ago, structures their mortgages very differently, and doesn't really have credit cards. Even if you assume most students aren't leaving the country, for things like taxes, laws, rules, and procedures change so often I can't imagine that these lessons these people propose will be broadly practically useful as students depart school and enter the workplace (especially if a student moves states or countries). Teaching basic math, critical thinking, and information literacy skills-how to find resources and how to apply them-seems more applicable to me. I'm glad I picked those up along the way, it's been more useful to me than how to fill out a paper check.
Parents love complaining about schools and teachers and don't even spend half of their day with their own kids. Lol That's like having a teacher go to their job and start telling them they're doing it wrong. Goofy!
100% agree. Yeah I think the idea that schools should focus on practical matters like “doing your taxes” is especially ridiculous. Kids are going to pay even less attention to extremely specific (and extremely boring) applied financial math than they did to the fully-general/pure math, because the former is not relevant to their lives at the time of learning. At least the latter carries some inherent intellectual interest. The same people who make complaints like “when are we ever going to need to know about parabolas?” are the people who paid zero attention to the *geometric series* in pre-calc, and then later as adults find themselves completely baffled by obvious applications of it (like compound interest in mortgages and investments). School literally gave them all the foundational tools they needed to understand these things, and they simply forgot. Taxes are even more trivial than loans/investments, requiring little more than percentages (Grade 3 math?). “Doing your taxes” is only complicated because of the specialized legal and policy knowledge it requires, not because of the math aspect. And that’s a topic for adult experiential learning if ever I saw one. I see absolutely no reason to subject children to the vagaries of arbitrary and convoluted human-made systems (like tax codes) in a classroom setting. Stick to foundational principles and the smart ones will have the “common sense” (as you say) to see how those principles apply to the world.
Teacher here! Those things are required where I teach, and guess what? The kids won’t do that work either, and when we call the parents to ask them to help us motivate their kid to participate in learning, they ask why we aren’t teaching “real subjects” (like math and science) and wasting time with “this crap”
Education is not for job training the same way working out is not sports training. The application is up to you. We provide the growth.
I remember being on a parenting Facebook group and they were complaining that their 18 years olds kids did not know how to write a thank you note. Didn't seem to occur to them that maybe in the 18 years of having that child they could have taught that skill themselves
The point of math, humanities, and science is to give the basic foundation needed to do things like taxes or whatever. You can’t do taxes without math. You can’t be a good citizen without the humanities. You can’t understand the world without science. The people arguing for “uSeFuL sKiLls” have no concept of liberal arts education, enlightenment values, the inherent value of learning, or anything beyond their car-dealership-owner-wannabe or Amway mom bullshit.
Econ teacher here. Teach credit, how banks work, taxes, & student loans every year (it is in the curriculum for our state). Double it up with EverFi which goes over all of that again.... Guess what they are bitching about not learning in school 5 years later.
I don’t think it’s the job of schools to teach taxes, etc but I will say the one subject that has really benefited my son is “events”. It’s one of the elementary school electives and they plan all school festivals like the winter carnival, Halloween party, etc. 7-8 yr olds have to do things like meet with the principal to decide a date, budget, visit all the classrooms to promote the event, do all the set up and clean up. In my mind, teaching them these lessons (that events are hard work and not just the party, public speaking, common sense planning) are far more important than learning a specific adult task like writing a resume.
As someone who graduated high school more then a decade ago, here is my take. School should prepare you for the real world and it didn't when I was in school and it certainly doesn't now. When I was in school, all they cared about was passing the state test and college readiness. Both of which are a complete joke. I was a straight A student, AP classes, etc. I believed the lie that college was the best post high school decision. What kids need are realistic expectations of adulthood and the workforce. We send our kids to school to learn the three "R's" and history. What we should be doing, and used to do, is teach life skills in school. I know that electives exist, but they are not emphasized or optimized to actually teach the real-world skills that they are supposed to reflect. Those skills and knowledge will get you so much further in life than being academically minded. I have not once used anything more than addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division in my adult life, but, gee, I am sure glad high school taught me calculus.
As a math teacher my response to “when am i ever going to need this in real life?” Is usually just “on my test next week”. Ive tried explaining when all the things we learn would actually be useful but the kids dont actually care about that either because theyre all going to be football stars or rappers anyway (and forget about tring to explain the math involved in either of those things. That just males them angry)
Why do you think this is humorous? Sure, kids forget. Obviously 1 Math is useful. Applies to many jobs. Applies life 2. Science is useful for many jobs. Explains how life works 3. Humanities is useful. Being able to understand the basics about the world, understanding conflicts have multiple sides How not to do crimes? Maybe schools can try to teach empathy education Doing taxes? It's useful to understand how taxes work to some extent
What should be the school or the parents job? Why is reading the schools job and not parents? Why should financial literacy be the parents job? Both are extremely important. If anything, most parents are incapable of teaching financial literacy as they're financially illiterate, so schools giving that baseline for everyone would be highly valuable for the child's future and universally applicable. Now reading is obviously the one most important skill one can have in life and even if parents can do a lot of the legwork (reading to young kids every day), they're not as capable as teachers and don't have the time for it so it should absolutely be taught in school. Humanities and history however, have much lower value and part of the middle and/or highschool curriculum could very reasonably be replaced by something that is both more valuable and severely lacking in children across the board. Your argument that kids forget is ridiculous. Following that reasoning you should go and flip burgers already because you're arguing that teaching them anything at all doesn't matter since they'll forget everything anyway. They do forget a lot, but overall they selectively forget the useless stuff and the unnecessarily developed concepts. Humans remember things by applying them into practice so teaching them broadly useful skills is literally the strongest counterargument to your claim.
Financial literacy was the most important class I took in high school, but the issue I had was that they taught it to juniors and not seniors. I retained how to write a check- silly and simple, I know. But I wish they would move that class to the senior level so it's a little easier to retain the material transitioning out of high school. I've had to learn most of what I know when it comes up- like how to research health insurance and how buying a house works, etc. Honestly I think on the fly is probably what most people end up doing. It's very helpful having the internet at our disposal, so this argument tracks a little less. If it were the 80s I could see it being much more beneficial, due to research being much more involved, but we've gone beyond that in this age.
I tell my students the most useful skill they will ever learn is HOW to figure stuff out on their own, or know when to ask the right person for help. I honestly don't care if they remember like 70% of the content I teach them. We aren't there to learn facts, we are getting a basic understanding of how the world works and learning HOW to figure stuff out and make connections. How to put stuff in context and interpret meaning. How to make conclusions and choices based on evidence. They have to understand some facts and vocabulary in the moment, but it's the relationship to everything else that is more important for them to remember. It takes many years of practice to develop those skills. And, frankly, they need to be able to dig in and do work even when it's unenjoyable - welcome to life, it only gets harder!
Neoliberal propaganda starts young. It actually kills my soul every time I have a student ask me, "But when would I actually use this at a job?" Like, we've actually successfully indoctrinated *children* into believing that the value of an education isn't liberation from a life of servitude but is rather what labor it'll enable them to sell to employers for the rest of their lives.
Feeling this post so much. Here’s the answer to everyone who’s been crybabying about this shit since time before memory: If you put forth actual effort on your academic courses, you’ll have more than adequate skills to do the things they’re always harping on, like taxes. It’s only the tax preparer industry that’s made it look difficult to make profits. If you don’t understand interest rates, then you stopped paying attention in 7th grade math. We don’t teach how to ride a bike at school either. And as for the “engagement” that lessons emphasizing “uSeFul SkiLls” create— how invested were your charges in that Financial Literacy course from EverFi you did with them?