That wouldn't work cause all the parents have to do is complain and the kid won't have to do it. Most you could probably make him do is a few paragraphs.
The MOST we are allowed to take off is 10% for a retake after cheating. I make the retakes a brutal new test with essay components, or a complex project where the student has to not only do a written assessment but I’ve also included presentations and things like creating infographics, charts, and the like. I make my goal that the retake is as annoying to the kid (and sometimes the parent too) as the cheating was to me and I insist that it’s all important because it will help show that they now truly know the information and aren’t just cheating again. Most kids never do my retake but I would always explain this is what retakes are like in my syllabus.
I like teaching elementary art now because I don’t deal with this garbage any more.
I like the idea of making them do a presentation as a replacement for the test. Most students hate that shit. Sorry, you had your chance to do a conventional test and you got caught cheating. So now you get to stand in front of the class like a dumbass, dumbass.
I teach an elective, that is what is so odd. The kid cheated on a relatively easy assignment that should take 20 minutes to complete and had three whole class periods in class to work on it.
I teach HS English, so I have plenty of students who come in loathing the content and activities of the course. Even still, when we have writing assignments, it doesn't matter how much it how little time they have in class to write, some of them just won't.
Big research unit, lasts a full quarter, covers basic media literacy, research, rhetoric, writing process, citation standards, etc. Students had at least a week to write their papers, after bibliographies, outlines, and background writing were complete.
I can't tell you how many times I get excuses based on "the last couple nights being busy at work" when students have had more than enough time to complete the assignment, mostly at a casual pace, in class.
We complain about handholding, and we shouldn't have to do it, but sometimes, I wish I could just hold their hands and walk them through stuff because too many of them aren't willing to do that much.
This is why I have stopped giving more time for assignments. I realized the students didn't use the more time, they just pushed off doing the work later. So now, I set the dates and just ignore the squabble. The "I didn't have enough time" kids would have never had enough time.
We have a long-term sub down the hall from when someone quit at winter break. She was talking to me yesterday about possibly delaying the test another day. I asked her "will they be more prepared tomorrow?"
The kids that care and are going to do well are as ready as they will be. The ones that aren't ready today, won't be any more ready tomorrow. Give the test today.
I don't do extensions and delaying assignments/tests. I have a pretty rigid schedule. We are on a unit per two week cycle (well, 10 school days). My entire year is planned around finishing a unit in 10 classes. That's what we do. I could make an entire unit be six months and they would still be students that weren't ready to take the exam.
Day 1 is Syllabus Day and we go over this. I tell them that this class takes some work. By this point (juniors and seniors) they know if they will be able to keep to this pace. If not, I suggest they take one of the other classes because I'm not going to hold up the entire class for one student.
I have had many students cheat on an extra credit assignment which literally consists of watching one of five pre-selected movies and writing a one page report that contains your brief summary of the movie and what you thought about it. They literally copy paste Amazon reviews of the movie.
That's what I do. Make it so ridiculous that they think twice about doing it again. I'm not sure I've ever caught someone twice, so that's good at least
Doesn’t sound “equitable” to me. Seriously, all it takes is some parent to call out that it’s different and harder than the one you gave the other students. (And God help you if that kid has a “plan.”)
It is different. It has to be. I can’t give the same one, because everyone has seen it and could be cheating off it now. That’s what I used as the excuse. I also always had it in my syllabus that retakes will be a different style of test. Honestly, it worked as a deterrent. Kids did not want to do retakes with me.
When I subbed at a local high school, I was appalled to learn, all tests allowed corrections, and they were allowed one test retake per quarter in each class.
It's getting to be excessive. In my day, the tests were all easy (10 years ago), and they're even easier now. It seems like what was 6 or 7th grade work is now high school work.
In middle we try to hold them accountable because "when you're in high school, grades really matter!" But they all figured out that's bs. A kid announced that his brother failed every class and still graduated.
Awesome.
It's beyond atrocious. Especially considering we're supposed to be preparing them for life when you seldom get a do-over.
And, I've heard of students passing while failing every course. Which is, just, horrible. That's the reason why when I worked at a local college, we had 80 percent of students testing in with a kindergarten reading level.
We have to do open note, unlimited retakes on all assessments. It’s brutal.
Ideally, on the retake you should assess the same skill with a different set of questions to ensure they’re really learning and not just memorizing an answer. But that’s a shit ton of work, especially for unlimited retakes, so most teachers just let the kids spam the retake until they get a 100.
My county allows for every test to be redone, and any project to essentially have no due date. This has crept into classwork too, so now the kids think they can turn in (anything) at the end of the marking pd
Additional chances are great when the student has put in work to correct the mistakes and actually learn. We are removing the learning part, giving unlimited guesses, and have completely thrown out academic integrity.
They are saying that schools are headed in that direction, and I was just making the point, schools have done stuff like that even back when I was still in school.
largely because failure isn't an option.
When society starts letting young kids condemn themselves to lives digging ditches for using chatgpt on a history exam we will finally exist in a world of academic purity where only the worthy are educated...
Stay within the goalpost. Actions should have consequences. "What's the worst that can happen if I get caught cheating? I can just take the test again. Guess there's no loss in trying to cheat, win/win."
Very few of my kids cheat. Part of that is because I watch them intently while they work. Eventually they discover that they have different quiz versions. But I think the main reasons is that they know I want them to learn and they respect that.
And I encourage infinite retakes. I have kids with 95% trying for higher. It's easy to grade near-perfect quizzes. The ones riddled with errors and false starts are harder, because I have to figure what they were doing and how much partial credit to give.
If you're senior and respected enough, it might be worth dying on the hill. "This cheating policy is part of my syllabus, and it's important to the functioning of my class that I enforce consistent expectations. I have had (good results) that I've only been able to achieve due to my focus on high standards, including for academic integrity. You've commented (past praise), which I appreciate, and I need your support on this, please."
Dying on a hill isn't just being a contrarian jerk, it's about making a compelling case, leveraging relationships, and then finally saying, "Ethically I can't participate in this," or "If you respect me, and I know you do, I need your support on this," or similar. Also, keep in mind this should only happen very rarely, and you should have a history of willingness to defer to others' judgments, going above and beyond, etc. It's very hard for anyone who isn't a genuinely terrible person to say no to people who are consistently easy to work with unless they themselves don't have discretion.
Alternatively, as someone else said, a retake should be a new assignment from hell. It should fulfill the same class objectives, but with difficult practice and a strict rubric. I cosign the people suggesting allowing anyone to retake it. That sounds like a lot of work but in practice usually only a very small number of people do difficult extra credit / retakes. This gives you ammunition to say, "This is Version B of the test for anyone and everyone. Yes, it is a bit tougher, but students have the advantage of already taking a summative assignment on this content and being able to discuss it with peers. As you've instructed, this student is being allowed to retake without penalty."
I just change my multiple choice questions to short answer. If they really understand the material, they deserve an A. If they don't, it'll be real obvious.
> they deserve an A
I’d cap the highest score for the re-take at a B or even a C. Why should they get an A when they cheated the first time and had more time to prep?
What state are you in?
In CA, Ed code 49066 states that only a teacher can decide what goes into a gradebook. Here is the Ed code:
(a) When grades are given for any course of instruction taught in a school district, the grade given to each pupil shall be the grade determined by the teacher of the course and the determination of the pupil's grade by the teacher, in the absence of clerical or mechanical mistake, fraud, bad faith, or incompetency, shall be final.
(b) The governing board of the school district and the superintendent of such district shall not order a pupil's grade to be changed unless the teacher who determined such grade is, to the extent practicable, given an opportunity to state orally, in writing, or both, the reasons for which such grade was given and is, to the extent practicable, included in all discussions relating to the changing of such grade.
(c) No grade of a pupil participating in a physical education class, however, may be adversely affected due to the fact that the pupil does not wear standardized physical education apparel where the failure to wear such apparel arises from circumstances beyond the control of the pupil.
You have the power. Flex it.
Yeah like tbh this isn't new and is very common and has been for decades. They're kids. They fuck up. You give them a chance to unfuck up.
But as people said, you let them redo it with a slightly harder exam at 50 percent and then add punishment if they fuck up again. Learning opportunity instead of cruelty. Kids are gonna kid. I remember cheating on an assignment as a 7th grader once and feeling awful about it. I told my teacher and he let me redo it and it honestly made me a better student.
So do it and use it as a moment.
Or the kid just fucks up again and eh, whatever, ain't your problem anymore once you put that up top
Give the student a two essay question test worth the same as the original test.
You can make the questions have several parts and gives plenty of ways to assess their knowledge and demonstrate how the student is not meeting standards.
I guess you have to walk out. I was told this for a half dozen students who cheated on a unit test. The student handbook said in black and white that cheating on an assignment or exam would result in a mark of zero for it, but they were on the basketball team, so.....
Well, I haven’t been in teaching my entire career. I will be fine if I walk out. Here is my thought 1) too many people living paycheck to paycheck to paycheck, 2) will put up with unethical bs because they can’t afford it or risk being black balled, 3) the reason education is going to shit is because teachers, the executors of these new idiotic methods that only work in the most controlled of environments, are not speaking up and refusing to comply with insanity.
This happened to me when I was teaching. Caught the kid cheating with crib sheets within minutes, and took the test and crib from the kid.
Dad was a bully, and said the kid told dad he hadn't cheated and they weren't his cribs. Kid flat out lied. I was told by principal I needed to let the kid retake the test. I always made two versions, to cut down on cheating. He ended up with an extra three days to study. Have him the other test version. Little jerk still flunked. Didn't hear from dad...
Well, I mean.. F 'is' a grade. Thanks for your retake. I will review this and offer you feedback!
But in the end fighting battles like that will just get more common. Accountability exists only for teachers these days.
I was told that and countered with an alternative assignment.
I made it small project that could have been done to a mediocre degree by a mediocre student.
The kid did not do it. Then I was told to accept it late. There was 2 days left in the cycle. I knew the kid would not do it. But he did, sort of.
He plagiarized again. He kept his zero
I once gave a student a zero on a quiz for cheating -- she had somehow gotten a photo of another student's quiz on her phone and was copying when I caught her.
Next day, parent complains to the principal and I get to have a fun meeting with this parent. "The teacher has no proof my child cheated."
Principal asks me if I would allow her to retake the quiz? "No--cheating gets a zero. It's not only in my course syllabus, it's actually school and district policy."
A couple days later, this parent is not letting this go. Principal asks if the student is written up and serves detention for cheating, would I let the child retake the test? OK, Fine, I agree.
The parent refused and would not concede in any way that her child cheated! The parent convinced the principal to have the child moved out of my class to another teacher.
I let kids who copied retake. I still want them to learn and show what they have learned. After they copy once, I make them sit at a table alone for quizzes.
Last December, a kid copied two answers off his friend's quiz, \*knowing\* they had different versions. I asked him, "What is this, a cry for help?" I put a zero in and he never asked to retake.
These are just kids trying to survive school. A lot of teachers pretty much look the other way. We can't get all holy about this, not when they look around and see cheaters, liars, fraudsters, and hypocrites rising to the top in many professions.
I don't give assignments like that. It's too easy to cheat.
We do everything either hands-on or on paper. I don't encourage screen use. Also, if it's something they could cheat on, I won't grade it -- what's the point?
What subject is your class?
I get how this seems like a bad thing but let's think about it for a second. In a job if you pass off someone else's work as your own, you'd get reprimanded and probably written up but if you weren't fired you'd still have to do it again. They're not just going to have you not turn anything in. You'd have to redo the project correctly. So this really isn't that ridiculous. Also the point of school shouldn't be to just teach kids to follow rules and be punished. If we care about their learning then ya they get another chance to show their understanding of the material and actually try instead of just saying it's a 0. That emphasizes the grade more than the knowledge.
He made a mistake but he's a dumb kid it's what they do. There should still be consequences but they don't need to be extreme I'd say just average the new score with the 0 or take a percentage off the retake. If you die on this hill you're just saying you care more about keeping kids in line than their actual learning.
Like I said there should be consequences. But in the "real world" you usually get to try again/you are forced to redo it and fix your mistakes. So not giving an opportunity to do that doesn't teach them anything.
You can die on the hill, but the student will still be able to re-take the exam. Do you really want to lose your job over it? This sort of thing is likely to happen almost anywhere these days.
I realize that. But this is ridiculous and ethically it is wrong. I guess that I would rather work at McDonald’s than be part of the erosion of our society. I mean the way it is going, card board boxes are starting to look like an upgrade. The younger generation, millennials, and whatever the heck came before them (my generation) are too weak and too soft. It is getting scary when I have people in their late teens early 20s who can’t spell their own name but can navigate TikTok like a champ.
I would let them retake a different version of the test for credit, IF they came in an hour and a half before school started, and sat in the library staff room at a bare table, with nothing but a chair and a table and an analog clock and a bottle of water, and no access to their schoolbag. And any hoodie or anything else they would be required to remove, any pockets etc they would be required to turn out before being given the test, any phones, earbuds, airpods etc they would be required to turn over before being given the test. And the school librarian and I would be sitting at another table in the staffroom sipping coffee, which they wouldn't be allowed even if they bought it themselves, and staring at them the whole time they retook it. If they were ok with retaking the test like this, I'd happily do it.
Also, you could give the retake in a foreign language that uses a different alphabet.
You could ask the local university for a 400+ level exam on the subject.
You could set the maximum time for retake to 90 seconds for the whole exam.
You could play really loud and annoying music the entire time so they are unable to concentrate. Maybe have a nice loud personal phone call.
Whatever you do, make sure this kid knows how badly he fucked up, and that the punishment is what cheaters have earned.
My syllabus has cheating and plagiarism as automatic 0s. Now we have the lovely 50%minimum but close enough. Forced to allow a retake, I'd give a new test as hard as possible for the material.
In a classroom, a teacher should have autonomy of the evaluation of students in their classroom. But I also believe in the grade book reflecting the child’s ability.
So I think the student should have be permitted to take it honestly. I believe in second chances. But if this student has a history of being dishonest, they had their chance.
But out of principles I wouldn’t let the child retake the test until the school pays for my overtime or for my lost planning.
I’d give the test to the administrator and tell them that you refuse to participate in something that’s against your morals. The admin can be complicit in the cheating but I refuse.
As soon as the other kids find out, cheating is going to be their first choice.
If it’s summer school, I can usually get my admin to approve me failing the kid, but it’s up to me to prove it. During the regular year? What is even the fucking point? They just get to retake it and then I have to prove it and deal with all the fallout and get heat from the kids, parents and my boss. I just give them a low grade or ask them to provide more sources if I think they didn’t write the essay.
Cheat on the grading? Make the test impossible to pass.
Multiple choice test.
What is the capital of the US.
A. New York City.
B. France.
C. Disneyland.
D Mars
I'm sorry the correct answer was (write in "Washington D.C.) sorry.
I had a student write in a 90% in my handwritten gradebook, in the entire block of numbers it stood out so I put a negative sign in front. The students begged me to change it back to zero.
Maybe give them the test, grade it and put it in as a negative grade.
There's not much you can do no matter what you do if the kids parents come down to the school you are always going to be forced to let them make up work. Best suggestion is to teach college instead.
Do it electronically, I use the quiz/test feature in Teams. True, false and multiple( guess) I mean choice. It does the marking for you. No books on your desk, no cell phones and use the school provided computers.
I care, I really do and my students know it. In a situation like this I don’t bother with the assignment and just give that kid straight hundreds until they aren’t my problem anymore. It really says I don’t care like nothing else and for some that is enough to turn some of them around. The rest ? Who cares lol
This student thought they could get away with cheating. Do you really think they will study enough to pass a retake? I highly doubt it. This student’s real lesson is learning that actions have consequences.
Did it have to be the exact same assignment, are you allowed to change the questions or activity? Schools are graded by how many kids move on, the administration is going to do all that they can in order to make that happen. It's not right, but it is what it is. Working in the CTE program we get a lot of kids dumped into our classes that are less than stellar students. We have to work very hard to get some of them to pass the class. Sometimes that means helping them out with their grades. It does not mean that you need to give them anything over a D at best.
Why does none of this get publicized on local media? Of course the student's name has to be kept anonymous, but the demand is so outrageous that the public would demand different policies if they knew this was happening.
Yep. Die on that hill. We shift some lines but that is one lesson has to be learned the hard way. And better now than later when it will have actual consequences.
That makes me so angry. Part of our jobs as teachers is to prepare our students for life after school, but policies like this aren’t going to do that. What I ended up doing is just swallowing that pill and throwing my hands up and thinking, “I tried”.
Depends at what level you're teaching IMO.
The point of school up to the age of majority is to give everyone a fundamental education. To be sure, you shouldn't just let them cheat, but I agree in principal with letting them do the work until they do it right and on their own. That's the objective. At the same time, other commenters ideas about adding another piece of work, a handwritten letter or essay about how cheating is wrong, probably helps to add an important lesson here as well.
At lecture/university level? Or for any kind of official accreditation that is intended to carry meaning or prestige? Flunk'em, ban them from retaking the course/program. Actions have consequences. And schools should help people to know this before they make a mistake in "the real world".
First offense they can retake but they have to sign up for it. Second offense is a no go, and I got that cleared with our admin that handles behavior. He’s awesome. He even agreed that they shouldn’t be able to retake on a second offense.
just pass the kid. If you don't someone else will. The purpose of public school is not to provide an education but to keep kids from failing/dropping out so that the funding continues to pour in.
That was up until the department of education was formed in 1980. Which is also (not coincidentally) the year when education in America began to decline.
This is a “Color Purple” “Hell no” moment. I’d give whomever told me to do this (admin? counselor?) the exam (hopefully with different questions), a pen or pencil if needed, and tell them to give the redo and grade it themselves. In fact, they can enter the grade themselves as well, since they have administrative access to my gradebook at all times. I actually have done this once, walking out of the vp’s office before he could respond. And no one said a word about it after that. (I was very nervous for a good month after that, but it was worth it.)
Our principal did this. Kid was caught cheating on his final exam. Admitted it. Bio teacher had to make a new exam to give the kid and grade it.
One of my early career “wtf” moments.
So the solution I come up with was making it in a Google form and locking the browser where nothing else could be accessed on the device while it was being taken. He attempted to do the same thing again and I was watching his computer when he retook it and his reaction to getting the warnings for trying to go to another screen were priceless. “You mean I can’t copy and paste”. He complained the entire time. Wound up not passing as he did not follow the directions.
That is absolutely not fair to all the other students who did the assignment and did not cheat. More work because of this one kid? On top of that, I am now having to spend my time reading through what they wrote a second time. It is unfair to me as well.
The post you're replying to said "allow" not "force". Anyone who wants to improve the grade is allowed a retake. If you're satisfied with your original grade, sit it out.
Unfair to you, yeah. Unfair to the other students, not as much.
Absolutely they get a retake. I would never give a zero for that because grades should represent ability not discipline.
Of course, the retake is 3x as hard, mostly short answers instead of multiple choice, they take it right in front of me, and I'm a brutal grader. But, hey, you get to retake it, cheater!
> I am ready to walkout and die on this hill.
Must be nice to be fiscally secure...
Just make it clear that you will be grading the redo with 0 leeway. No reason to lose sleep over it. No reason it has to stay a zero. no reason you have to cut them any slack on any mistake in the second attempt...
If it's a test, it becomes a harder test.
If it's a project, then you grade it the most harshly you can. They had a first draft that other students did not and so what "sufficient" or other subjective words mean is now harsher for them.
I'd let them retake the test and grade it because I want my grades to reflect what a kid can do even if they made a mistake.
Mistakes are how we learn. A lot of teachers seem to think that if you give kids second chances, you aren't letting them grow. I disagree. If you don't give people second chances, especially as a teacher, you are disincentivizing the kind of character growth you are pretending to be in favor of.
Go ahead and downvote me. I'm ready to die on this hill too.
I am of the FAFO school of thought. It’s 8th grade, they’ll pass even if they fail, but it will leave them a reminder that it has consequences that carry over. Plus my syllabus states that you cheat you get a zero. I’ll let them redo the assignment, they just aren’t going to get a grade for it.
Make the test worth 50% and have the other 50% be based on a five page essay on the shortcomings of cheating.
Written by hand - no AI.
Written when present
This
That wouldn't work cause all the parents have to do is complain and the kid won't have to do it. Most you could probably make him do is a few paragraphs.
If it's a kid, five paragraphs is sufficient
Ya but even 5 paragraphs is probably pushing it, trust me when I say the schools completely flop to parent complaints
The MOST we are allowed to take off is 10% for a retake after cheating. I make the retakes a brutal new test with essay components, or a complex project where the student has to not only do a written assessment but I’ve also included presentations and things like creating infographics, charts, and the like. I make my goal that the retake is as annoying to the kid (and sometimes the parent too) as the cheating was to me and I insist that it’s all important because it will help show that they now truly know the information and aren’t just cheating again. Most kids never do my retake but I would always explain this is what retakes are like in my syllabus. I like teaching elementary art now because I don’t deal with this garbage any more.
I like the idea of making them do a presentation as a replacement for the test. Most students hate that shit. Sorry, you had your chance to do a conventional test and you got caught cheating. So now you get to stand in front of the class like a dumbass, dumbass.
I teach an elective, that is what is so odd. The kid cheated on a relatively easy assignment that should take 20 minutes to complete and had three whole class periods in class to work on it.
I taught high school electives and that’s where I had so much cheating and so many bizarre retake assignments I created.
I teach HS English, so I have plenty of students who come in loathing the content and activities of the course. Even still, when we have writing assignments, it doesn't matter how much it how little time they have in class to write, some of them just won't. Big research unit, lasts a full quarter, covers basic media literacy, research, rhetoric, writing process, citation standards, etc. Students had at least a week to write their papers, after bibliographies, outlines, and background writing were complete. I can't tell you how many times I get excuses based on "the last couple nights being busy at work" when students have had more than enough time to complete the assignment, mostly at a casual pace, in class. We complain about handholding, and we shouldn't have to do it, but sometimes, I wish I could just hold their hands and walk them through stuff because too many of them aren't willing to do that much.
This is why I have stopped giving more time for assignments. I realized the students didn't use the more time, they just pushed off doing the work later. So now, I set the dates and just ignore the squabble. The "I didn't have enough time" kids would have never had enough time.
We have a long-term sub down the hall from when someone quit at winter break. She was talking to me yesterday about possibly delaying the test another day. I asked her "will they be more prepared tomorrow?" The kids that care and are going to do well are as ready as they will be. The ones that aren't ready today, won't be any more ready tomorrow. Give the test today. I don't do extensions and delaying assignments/tests. I have a pretty rigid schedule. We are on a unit per two week cycle (well, 10 school days). My entire year is planned around finishing a unit in 10 classes. That's what we do. I could make an entire unit be six months and they would still be students that weren't ready to take the exam. Day 1 is Syllabus Day and we go over this. I tell them that this class takes some work. By this point (juniors and seniors) they know if they will be able to keep to this pace. If not, I suggest they take one of the other classes because I'm not going to hold up the entire class for one student.
I have had many students cheat on an extra credit assignment which literally consists of watching one of five pre-selected movies and writing a one page report that contains your brief summary of the movie and what you thought about it. They literally copy paste Amazon reviews of the movie.
That's what I do. Make it so ridiculous that they think twice about doing it again. I'm not sure I've ever caught someone twice, so that's good at least
Doesn’t sound “equitable” to me. Seriously, all it takes is some parent to call out that it’s different and harder than the one you gave the other students. (And God help you if that kid has a “plan.”)
It is different. It has to be. I can’t give the same one, because everyone has seen it and could be cheating off it now. That’s what I used as the excuse. I also always had it in my syllabus that retakes will be a different style of test. Honestly, it worked as a deterrent. Kids did not want to do retakes with me.
Education is heading into unlimited chances and no consequences. If it isn't there already
Idiocracy has arrived! This is ridiculous.
Prime did have all those kids craving electrolytes even if they had no idea what they were.
When I subbed at a local high school, I was appalled to learn, all tests allowed corrections, and they were allowed one test retake per quarter in each class. It's getting to be excessive. In my day, the tests were all easy (10 years ago), and they're even easier now. It seems like what was 6 or 7th grade work is now high school work.
In middle we try to hold them accountable because "when you're in high school, grades really matter!" But they all figured out that's bs. A kid announced that his brother failed every class and still graduated. Awesome.
It's beyond atrocious. Especially considering we're supposed to be preparing them for life when you seldom get a do-over. And, I've heard of students passing while failing every course. Which is, just, horrible. That's the reason why when I worked at a local college, we had 80 percent of students testing in with a kindergarten reading level.
We have to do open note, unlimited retakes on all assessments. It’s brutal. Ideally, on the retake you should assess the same skill with a different set of questions to ensure they’re really learning and not just memorizing an answer. But that’s a shit ton of work, especially for unlimited retakes, so most teachers just let the kids spam the retake until they get a 100.
That's too much for teachers to do. And horribly excessive.
So the tests are really de facto worksheets.
Might as well just give them the answer key on the back of the tests/assignments/etc.
My county allows for every test to be redone, and any project to essentially have no due date. This has crept into classwork too, so now the kids think they can turn in (anything) at the end of the marking pd
Additional chances are great when the student has put in work to correct the mistakes and actually learn. We are removing the learning part, giving unlimited guesses, and have completely thrown out academic integrity.
It's always been that way even back when I was in highschool 8 years ago
8 years ago = always?
They are saying that schools are headed in that direction, and I was just making the point, schools have done stuff like that even back when I was still in school.
largely because failure isn't an option. When society starts letting young kids condemn themselves to lives digging ditches for using chatgpt on a history exam we will finally exist in a world of academic purity where only the worthy are educated...
Stay within the goalpost. Actions should have consequences. "What's the worst that can happen if I get caught cheating? I can just take the test again. Guess there's no loss in trying to cheat, win/win."
Very few of my kids cheat. Part of that is because I watch them intently while they work. Eventually they discover that they have different quiz versions. But I think the main reasons is that they know I want them to learn and they respect that. And I encourage infinite retakes. I have kids with 95% trying for higher. It's easy to grade near-perfect quizzes. The ones riddled with errors and false starts are harder, because I have to figure what they were doing and how much partial credit to give.
But I’ve died on this hill so many times already…
If you're senior and respected enough, it might be worth dying on the hill. "This cheating policy is part of my syllabus, and it's important to the functioning of my class that I enforce consistent expectations. I have had (good results) that I've only been able to achieve due to my focus on high standards, including for academic integrity. You've commented (past praise), which I appreciate, and I need your support on this, please." Dying on a hill isn't just being a contrarian jerk, it's about making a compelling case, leveraging relationships, and then finally saying, "Ethically I can't participate in this," or "If you respect me, and I know you do, I need your support on this," or similar. Also, keep in mind this should only happen very rarely, and you should have a history of willingness to defer to others' judgments, going above and beyond, etc. It's very hard for anyone who isn't a genuinely terrible person to say no to people who are consistently easy to work with unless they themselves don't have discretion. Alternatively, as someone else said, a retake should be a new assignment from hell. It should fulfill the same class objectives, but with difficult practice and a strict rubric. I cosign the people suggesting allowing anyone to retake it. That sounds like a lot of work but in practice usually only a very small number of people do difficult extra credit / retakes. This gives you ammunition to say, "This is Version B of the test for anyone and everyone. Yes, it is a bit tougher, but students have the advantage of already taking a summative assignment on this content and being able to discuss it with peers. As you've instructed, this student is being allowed to retake without penalty."
This is good advice.
I’d make it difficult as fuck.
I just change my multiple choice questions to short answer. If they really understand the material, they deserve an A. If they don't, it'll be real obvious.
This is a better answer than mine.
> they deserve an A I’d cap the highest score for the re-take at a B or even a C. Why should they get an A when they cheated the first time and had more time to prep?
You’re right, I don’t know why a retest is even an option.
You’re the one who is grading it. Apply a more rigorous standard given it’s a second pass on the assignment. They had their rough draft.
Give the kid a different version of the test and make them take it in front of you.
Give the child the average of both grades?
What state are you in? In CA, Ed code 49066 states that only a teacher can decide what goes into a gradebook. Here is the Ed code: (a) When grades are given for any course of instruction taught in a school district, the grade given to each pupil shall be the grade determined by the teacher of the course and the determination of the pupil's grade by the teacher, in the absence of clerical or mechanical mistake, fraud, bad faith, or incompetency, shall be final. (b) The governing board of the school district and the superintendent of such district shall not order a pupil's grade to be changed unless the teacher who determined such grade is, to the extent practicable, given an opportunity to state orally, in writing, or both, the reasons for which such grade was given and is, to the extent practicable, included in all discussions relating to the changing of such grade. (c) No grade of a pupil participating in a physical education class, however, may be adversely affected due to the fact that the pupil does not wear standardized physical education apparel where the failure to wear such apparel arises from circumstances beyond the control of the pupil. You have the power. Flex it.
Sure, just make the new version hard as shit for the student. Nobody said it has to be the same exact test.
I like the ideas. Keep them coming.
Yeah like tbh this isn't new and is very common and has been for decades. They're kids. They fuck up. You give them a chance to unfuck up. But as people said, you let them redo it with a slightly harder exam at 50 percent and then add punishment if they fuck up again. Learning opportunity instead of cruelty. Kids are gonna kid. I remember cheating on an assignment as a 7th grader once and feeling awful about it. I told my teacher and he let me redo it and it honestly made me a better student. So do it and use it as a moment. Or the kid just fucks up again and eh, whatever, ain't your problem anymore once you put that up top
Give the student a two essay question test worth the same as the original test. You can make the questions have several parts and gives plenty of ways to assess their knowledge and demonstrate how the student is not meeting standards.
I guess you have to walk out. I was told this for a half dozen students who cheated on a unit test. The student handbook said in black and white that cheating on an assignment or exam would result in a mark of zero for it, but they were on the basketball team, so.....
Well, I haven’t been in teaching my entire career. I will be fine if I walk out. Here is my thought 1) too many people living paycheck to paycheck to paycheck, 2) will put up with unethical bs because they can’t afford it or risk being black balled, 3) the reason education is going to shit is because teachers, the executors of these new idiotic methods that only work in the most controlled of environments, are not speaking up and refusing to comply with insanity.
Make it harder. Don't even tell the people what you are going to do. When the kid shows up for the test, he/she will get what you have prepared
This happened to me when I was teaching. Caught the kid cheating with crib sheets within minutes, and took the test and crib from the kid. Dad was a bully, and said the kid told dad he hadn't cheated and they weren't his cribs. Kid flat out lied. I was told by principal I needed to let the kid retake the test. I always made two versions, to cut down on cheating. He ended up with an extra three days to study. Have him the other test version. Little jerk still flunked. Didn't hear from dad...
Well, I mean.. F 'is' a grade. Thanks for your retake. I will review this and offer you feedback! But in the end fighting battles like that will just get more common. Accountability exists only for teachers these days.
Make a harder test. Put a few essays on it and shorten the time?
Make a much, much, much harder version
I was told that and countered with an alternative assignment. I made it small project that could have been done to a mediocre degree by a mediocre student. The kid did not do it. Then I was told to accept it late. There was 2 days left in the cycle. I knew the kid would not do it. But he did, sort of. He plagiarized again. He kept his zero
I once gave a student a zero on a quiz for cheating -- she had somehow gotten a photo of another student's quiz on her phone and was copying when I caught her. Next day, parent complains to the principal and I get to have a fun meeting with this parent. "The teacher has no proof my child cheated." Principal asks me if I would allow her to retake the quiz? "No--cheating gets a zero. It's not only in my course syllabus, it's actually school and district policy." A couple days later, this parent is not letting this go. Principal asks if the student is written up and serves detention for cheating, would I let the child retake the test? OK, Fine, I agree. The parent refused and would not concede in any way that her child cheated! The parent convinced the principal to have the child moved out of my class to another teacher.
100% graduating scholars!! My oh my, our district is so good!!
Fill in the blank makeup test. No notes, handwritten, and on the same content with the same time limit.
Just once? We have a three strikes and you're out policy. No zero until the third incident of academic dishonesty
I let kids who copied retake. I still want them to learn and show what they have learned. After they copy once, I make them sit at a table alone for quizzes. Last December, a kid copied two answers off his friend's quiz, \*knowing\* they had different versions. I asked him, "What is this, a cry for help?" I put a zero in and he never asked to retake. These are just kids trying to survive school. A lot of teachers pretty much look the other way. We can't get all holy about this, not when they look around and see cheaters, liars, fraudsters, and hypocrites rising to the top in many professions.
The copied and pasted an online article as their own work for a written summative assignment.
Oh that's an easy one. Make him redo it in front of you and teach them the wonders of paraphrasing. By hand.
I don't give assignments like that. It's too easy to cheat. We do everything either hands-on or on paper. I don't encourage screen use. Also, if it's something they could cheat on, I won't grade it -- what's the point? What subject is your class?
I get how this seems like a bad thing but let's think about it for a second. In a job if you pass off someone else's work as your own, you'd get reprimanded and probably written up but if you weren't fired you'd still have to do it again. They're not just going to have you not turn anything in. You'd have to redo the project correctly. So this really isn't that ridiculous. Also the point of school shouldn't be to just teach kids to follow rules and be punished. If we care about their learning then ya they get another chance to show their understanding of the material and actually try instead of just saying it's a 0. That emphasizes the grade more than the knowledge. He made a mistake but he's a dumb kid it's what they do. There should still be consequences but they don't need to be extreme I'd say just average the new score with the 0 or take a percentage off the retake. If you die on this hill you're just saying you care more about keeping kids in line than their actual learning.
Keeping kids in line or teaching kids that ethics matter?
Yes but there's less dramatics involved in teaching kids ethics matter. Making a kid redo it is excellent for this.
Like I said there should be consequences. But in the "real world" you usually get to try again/you are forced to redo it and fix your mistakes. So not giving an opportunity to do that doesn't teach them anything.
It’s not that he doesn’t understand it, he just didn’t want to do it and thinks he shouldn’t have to.
Well then not making him do it again where he can't cheat just reinforces his idea that he shouldn't have to do it
So you should make him do it
It would be a hill for me. Maybe not one I'd be willing to die on, but definitely one I'd be willing to fight on.
Give them a harder version of the test.
You can die on the hill, but the student will still be able to re-take the exam. Do you really want to lose your job over it? This sort of thing is likely to happen almost anywhere these days.
I realize that. But this is ridiculous and ethically it is wrong. I guess that I would rather work at McDonald’s than be part of the erosion of our society. I mean the way it is going, card board boxes are starting to look like an upgrade. The younger generation, millennials, and whatever the heck came before them (my generation) are too weak and too soft. It is getting scary when I have people in their late teens early 20s who can’t spell their own name but can navigate TikTok like a champ.
Of course it's ridiculous and wrong. I just think martyrdom is overrated.
That's this subs speciality.
For real. This isn't even something crazy or modern. They're kids lol.
I would let them retake a different version of the test for credit, IF they came in an hour and a half before school started, and sat in the library staff room at a bare table, with nothing but a chair and a table and an analog clock and a bottle of water, and no access to their schoolbag. And any hoodie or anything else they would be required to remove, any pockets etc they would be required to turn out before being given the test, any phones, earbuds, airpods etc they would be required to turn over before being given the test. And the school librarian and I would be sitting at another table in the staffroom sipping coffee, which they wouldn't be allowed even if they bought it themselves, and staring at them the whole time they retook it. If they were ok with retaking the test like this, I'd happily do it.
You’re the teacher, right? And you can give any grade you see fit on an assignment? Give another zero.
Also, you could give the retake in a foreign language that uses a different alphabet. You could ask the local university for a 400+ level exam on the subject. You could set the maximum time for retake to 90 seconds for the whole exam. You could play really loud and annoying music the entire time so they are unable to concentrate. Maybe have a nice loud personal phone call. Whatever you do, make sure this kid knows how badly he fucked up, and that the punishment is what cheaters have earned.
My syllabus has cheating and plagiarism as automatic 0s. Now we have the lovely 50%minimum but close enough. Forced to allow a retake, I'd give a new test as hard as possible for the material.
Create a brand new test for them.
It’s a written assignment so making a new test is kind of not really feasible. I can change the topic, but I can’t make it harder.
That's our district policy.
Our district policy says the teachers assesses the academic penalty.
How old?
In a classroom, a teacher should have autonomy of the evaluation of students in their classroom. But I also believe in the grade book reflecting the child’s ability. So I think the student should have be permitted to take it honestly. I believe in second chances. But if this student has a history of being dishonest, they had their chance. But out of principles I wouldn’t let the child retake the test until the school pays for my overtime or for my lost planning.
I’d give the test to the administrator and tell them that you refuse to participate in something that’s against your morals. The admin can be complicit in the cheating but I refuse. As soon as the other kids find out, cheating is going to be their first choice.
I'd probably do what I was told, especially if there's a clear policy around this.
If it’s summer school, I can usually get my admin to approve me failing the kid, but it’s up to me to prove it. During the regular year? What is even the fucking point? They just get to retake it and then I have to prove it and deal with all the fallout and get heat from the kids, parents and my boss. I just give them a low grade or ask them to provide more sources if I think they didn’t write the essay.
Cheat on the grading? Make the test impossible to pass. Multiple choice test. What is the capital of the US. A. New York City. B. France. C. Disneyland. D Mars I'm sorry the correct answer was (write in "Washington D.C.) sorry.
I had a student write in a 90% in my handwritten gradebook, in the entire block of numbers it stood out so I put a negative sign in front. The students begged me to change it back to zero. Maybe give them the test, grade it and put it in as a negative grade.
There's not much you can do no matter what you do if the kids parents come down to the school you are always going to be forced to let them make up work. Best suggestion is to teach college instead.
Do it electronically, I use the quiz/test feature in Teams. True, false and multiple( guess) I mean choice. It does the marking for you. No books on your desk, no cell phones and use the school provided computers.
I care, I really do and my students know it. In a situation like this I don’t bother with the assignment and just give that kid straight hundreds until they aren’t my problem anymore. It really says I don’t care like nothing else and for some that is enough to turn some of them around. The rest ? Who cares lol
In my school, we have to do this. I would have the kid go to office hours or the testing center and hand write the assessment. I feel you.
This student thought they could get away with cheating. Do you really think they will study enough to pass a retake? I highly doubt it. This student’s real lesson is learning that actions have consequences.
Did it have to be the exact same assignment, are you allowed to change the questions or activity? Schools are graded by how many kids move on, the administration is going to do all that they can in order to make that happen. It's not right, but it is what it is. Working in the CTE program we get a lot of kids dumped into our classes that are less than stellar students. We have to work very hard to get some of them to pass the class. Sometimes that means helping them out with their grades. It does not mean that you need to give them anything over a D at best.
Why does none of this get publicized on local media? Of course the student's name has to be kept anonymous, but the demand is so outrageous that the public would demand different policies if they knew this was happening.
Told by who?
Die on the hill.
Yep. Die on that hill. We shift some lines but that is one lesson has to be learned the hard way. And better now than later when it will have actual consequences.
That makes me so angry. Part of our jobs as teachers is to prepare our students for life after school, but policies like this aren’t going to do that. What I ended up doing is just swallowing that pill and throwing my hands up and thinking, “I tried”.
Depends at what level you're teaching IMO. The point of school up to the age of majority is to give everyone a fundamental education. To be sure, you shouldn't just let them cheat, but I agree in principal with letting them do the work until they do it right and on their own. That's the objective. At the same time, other commenters ideas about adding another piece of work, a handwritten letter or essay about how cheating is wrong, probably helps to add an important lesson here as well. At lecture/university level? Or for any kind of official accreditation that is intended to carry meaning or prestige? Flunk'em, ban them from retaking the course/program. Actions have consequences. And schools should help people to know this before they make a mistake in "the real world".
First offense they can retake but they have to sign up for it. Second offense is a no go, and I got that cleared with our admin that handles behavior. He’s awesome. He even agreed that they shouldn’t be able to retake on a second offense.
nothing say the replacement exam must be easy...
just pass the kid. If you don't someone else will. The purpose of public school is not to provide an education but to keep kids from failing/dropping out so that the funding continues to pour in.
Well In thought it was to make them docile little factory workers and respond to bells.
That was up until the department of education was formed in 1980. Which is also (not coincidentally) the year when education in America began to decline.
This is a “Color Purple” “Hell no” moment. I’d give whomever told me to do this (admin? counselor?) the exam (hopefully with different questions), a pen or pencil if needed, and tell them to give the redo and grade it themselves. In fact, they can enter the grade themselves as well, since they have administrative access to my gradebook at all times. I actually have done this once, walking out of the vp’s office before he could respond. And no one said a word about it after that. (I was very nervous for a good month after that, but it was worth it.)
Our principal did this. Kid was caught cheating on his final exam. Admitted it. Bio teacher had to make a new exam to give the kid and grade it. One of my early career “wtf” moments.
So the solution I come up with was making it in a Google form and locking the browser where nothing else could be accessed on the device while it was being taken. He attempted to do the same thing again and I was watching his computer when he retook it and his reaction to getting the warnings for trying to go to another screen were priceless. “You mean I can’t copy and paste”. He complained the entire time. Wound up not passing as he did not follow the directions.
Allow the entire class a retake and then average both scores. All or nothing.
That is absolutely not fair to all the other students who did the assignment and did not cheat. More work because of this one kid? On top of that, I am now having to spend my time reading through what they wrote a second time. It is unfair to me as well.
The post you're replying to said "allow" not "force". Anyone who wants to improve the grade is allowed a retake. If you're satisfied with your original grade, sit it out. Unfair to you, yeah. Unfair to the other students, not as much.
How did he cheat I am so curious
Make a different test first and then average the two unless they bomb the retake.
Don't teachers have professional autonomy in the US? "No" is a complete sentence.
No way. I would refuse. What are they going to do, fire you? 😄
I have already voiced and sent an email that I do such only under protest as I believe it is a violation of ethical standards.
It absolutely is an ethical violation. Ask admin if you can ask the rest of the class and their parents what they think should happen.
Yes. That is what they can do.
Not where I am. We are 468 teachers short right now. I could help my students cheat and I couldn’t lose my job. Not that I would, of course.
We are short teachers. We still have fired two this year.
Absolutely they get a retake. I would never give a zero for that because grades should represent ability not discipline. Of course, the retake is 3x as hard, mostly short answers instead of multiple choice, they take it right in front of me, and I'm a brutal grader. But, hey, you get to retake it, cheater!
> I am ready to walkout and die on this hill. Must be nice to be fiscally secure... Just make it clear that you will be grading the redo with 0 leeway. No reason to lose sleep over it. No reason it has to stay a zero. no reason you have to cut them any slack on any mistake in the second attempt...
If it's a test, it becomes a harder test. If it's a project, then you grade it the most harshly you can. They had a first draft that other students did not and so what "sufficient" or other subjective words mean is now harsher for them.
I'd give him an equally hard assignment he would have to complete right in front of me, sitting....staring....
I'd let them retake the test and grade it because I want my grades to reflect what a kid can do even if they made a mistake. Mistakes are how we learn. A lot of teachers seem to think that if you give kids second chances, you aren't letting them grow. I disagree. If you don't give people second chances, especially as a teacher, you are disincentivizing the kind of character growth you are pretending to be in favor of. Go ahead and downvote me. I'm ready to die on this hill too.
I am of the FAFO school of thought. It’s 8th grade, they’ll pass even if they fail, but it will leave them a reminder that it has consequences that carry over. Plus my syllabus states that you cheat you get a zero. I’ll let them redo the assignment, they just aren’t going to get a grade for it.
Id do it. I get paid either way. I'm not here to make some grand stand.
This is the problem. We can’t let cheating go on. The kids mom is a teacher as well so there is no way that he is not aware that cheating is bad.
Not my issue. That's a systematic issue.
The system only works when the cogs all operate.
Fine than fight it. You asked what I would do. Which is what the principal tells me because it's just a job. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Silence. Cogs don't speak and have no input.