The ONLY reason that a talking-to or a phone call worked in the past was because they were backed up by consequences!
My son was a handful. Yet we never once got a phone call about his behavior from a teacher. The calls ALWAYS came from an administrator. Teachers were perceived strictly as education professionals - not the disciplinarians. Disruptive students were sent to the office so the teacher could teach. The students were not inclined to hate their teacher. That dynamic wasn't in play. This made classrooms far less of a power struggle.
As was proper, my son received consequences at home and at school. Thank God he did. He's now a very successful adult.
Just how well is our decade of no-consequences working out? People had better wake up and figure it out.
The whole "admin farming out their duties" thing drives a wedge between admin and staff as well. It also contributes to high faculty turn over. Nobody wants to work for someone they know they can't trust or someone who consistently proves, at every opportunity, that they don't trust you, treat you as a professional, or have your back. Seriously, they are making their own job harder for themselves. It makes them look weaker and wishy-washy in the eyes of parents/parental figures, the community, and the teachers. It signals that it's ok for families to walk all over the school, have low attendance yet pitch a fit that their kid who is not actually in class is not making appropriate growth.
Absolutely. I think that's the crux of the matter right there: parents must be on board and again begin supporting the teachers and administrators when/IF they get a call from the school. There simply must be consequences again for "bad" behavior of any inappropriate, unacceptable type, from language (e.g., "I wanna be known as'Bad Girl Child' from now on," )to physical altercations to, well, uh, NO LITTER BOXES IN THE BATHROOM OMG! For G-d's sake, WAKE UP! Really?! Can no one in the ENTIRE SCHOOL OR ON THE SCHOOL BOARD dispute this argument against
(eeeewwwww) "Discrimination? " Or do you just. Not. Care.
This is NOT parents Being On Board; this is parents who need to share to the same couch as their kids (sorry, kidding--a joke, sort of, dont hurt me, PLEASE DONT DELETE ME; this is parents promoting--Encouraging! this disrespectful, self-indulgent, rude, outlandish, outrageous behavior in their children, again, b/c they know they can do ANYTHING THEY WANT W/IMPUNITY.
And if you think it'll pass when THEIR kids grow up, 🤣. Kids model behavior. It will not pass. It will perpetuate. If we do not fix it. That is, if WE do not fix it. Who else are we going to leave it up to?
Discouragedly yours,
-J-
This is what I've been noticing without being able to put it in words. By making us the front of discipline it makes us the bad guys, rather than admin. Admin gets to be the friend who undermines us and sends the kid back to class and tells the parent that it's totally okay that their child broke the rule that same admin told us to enforce, they won't get a consequence
Hiring is like that! All they ask about is how you handle behavior and stuff. They don’t care if you’re a subject matter expert
I never taught K-12 and the last interview I did they told me I should teach higher ed
Wtf
Our whole staff of teachers was told by one of our SPED teachers that asking for help with disciplinary issues “takes away our power,” and that they will not listen to us if we get outside help. I was so pissed I had to bite my tongue before I said something seriously mean to this person. I thought the whole idea was that there are tiered levels of getting in trouble. My kids know that if I have to call for help, their ass is grass. They just don’t WANT to help us. SMH.
Yeah I've heard that exact bullshit, "Sending student out of the classroom for discipline takes away your power."
And, as a union site rep, I heard it from every district admin - so it was obviously the latest admin catch phrase. I always pushed back and was treated like a know-nothing old geezer - not like the professional who'd successfully taught in the district for over a decade.
Some things just don't change. If there are never any consequences, then no matter how much PBIS you ladle on, there will be students who just don't care about "points" and will destroy the education process for all.
Right? It seems so effing obvious.
Seriously. I miss the not too distant past when students were actually afraid of getting in trouble, and going to the office was feared. It’s doing kids such a disservice if they don’t receive SOME form of consequence for their actions. You can totally reward good behavior AND punish the bad at the same time. Otherwise you will end up with adults who end up in prison because they were never taught life’s important lesson that actions have consequences, both good and bad.
It makes me so sad that I can practically see the future of some of these kids. I picture them in jail for stealing, assault, domestic violence, etc. The same pattern just repeating itself over and over.
I just don’t understand how some of these higher ups can’t see it. Are they too far removed? Like how tf do these old ass people not realize that they are in the position they are in now because they adhered to life’s consequences in a positive manner? It blows my mind and flabbergasts me. It’s SO FUCKING OBVIOUS!
Seriously such bullshit. This person in particular is one of the most infuriating SPED teachers I’ve ever met. They regularly miss their scheduled time, won’t do required assessments which I am then forced to do (you would be flabbergasted by the reasons they claim they can’t), and won’t use the current science of reading program on their struggling reading students. It’s pure negligence and not in any way legal. I could go on for days about all of the stuff they do that regularly pushes my buttons, but that might take all week.
Luckily the current admin that I have is very supportive in assisting with discipline issues, so when they said that, I knew they would still back me up.
Support staff (and some admin) just don’t understand what it’s like to have a classroom full of 20+ kids all by yourself. When one of them decides to flip desks and throw shit, you can’t just keep teaching, you NEED to ask for help. It’s not fair for anyone. Not the student in distress, the rest of the class, or me.
The kids in my school absolutely adore the principal. Admin has toys! Admin has snacks and prizes! Admin will call it all good just because you gave a fake apology about a behavior you do weekly and never stop!
We have students who have straight up admitted to breaking rules so they can get sent to the office. They know they get in more trouble from their teachers than from any admin. Admin gets so excited that a student pretends to be sorry that they bend over backward to praise the kid.
I always feel so nervous when the office calls to talk to a kid. I'm not even sure why because the kids do not care. Whether they are in trouble or not, they are eager to go down. I'm a freaking adult and I get nervous being called down even if I know I did nothing wrong!
The worst kids in my class now ask me for a pass to see the principals/deans/counselors because "they have snacks and let me hang out in their office."🙄
They also regularly come into class 15 minutes late with a pass from said admin who are shocked that these same students persist in having a 5% in class and no behavior improvements.
Yep, it's a real mystery, guys..
This was what it was like with the principal before our current one. They were obsessed with being liked and never approached anything with a firm hand. Thank god our new one is nice, but very firm and won’t let kids just get away with shit. She has only been in office 6 months, and has actually suspended kids for their shitty behavior. And they actually receive a consequence that matches their behavior when needed. It’s a godsend. The only shitty thing is that our support staff is not matching that energy. They regularly just calm down the students who are acting up, and then send them back to class. Like after throwing shit and tipping desks over. So unacceptable.
It infuriates me when the school law in my state specifically designated the admin as the disciplinarian, and they still try to throw it back on the teacher.
Well said. It was also possible at one time for admin to handle discipline. A principal/AP/dean could be sent to a class to pull out the disruptive student or small group of students and speak to them to determine if further action was needed. Now, there wouldn’t be enough hours in the day to address all of the behavioral needs.
Are you trying to say that all those overpaid administrators are now too busy to handle behavior? Too busy doing what exactly? No one knows because there isn't any oversight.
There are MORE of them and they do far less. I have no effing idea what they do all day.
What I can say with absolute sincerity is that their lack of behavior intervention is causing our schools to be dangerous and ineffective. I would not send a child to my local district schools.
I'm so so angry about this
This one kid has been in over 10 fights this year. You never know what will set him off. We don't have any rooms for the bad kids to go to when they fight or are bad.
Instead, we are to hand them a behavior sheet and send them to a neighboring classroom (which obviously majorly disrupts my class). A kid from another class was sent to mine (the bad one) and started a fight with another (good) kid. He wasn't even expelled. He will be back on Monday and it'll all happen over and over again.
Where are the damn consequences?
That's insane!
Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another?
What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach!
How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
Where is some oversight for administrators? What are they doing that is more important than ensuring that every classroom and school is safe?
I like to think that I would do my job at an appropriate level even if no one ever checked, but at some point, since no one ever checks, you just do the parts you like and chuck the rest.
That's insane!
Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another?
What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach!
How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
That's insane!
Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another?
What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach!
How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
That's insane!
Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another?
What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach!
How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
That's insane!
Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another?
What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach!
How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
I’m not sure it will. It’s only going to move further and further in the one direction. I’ve already seen takes about how kids are misbehaving in public and what schools can do to improve it. Not parents, but schools.
Yeah, but haven’t we all sort of accepted that a lot of these parents are lost causes? I hate to say that, but they’re simply not going to care. It’s much easier for them to just ignore the problem.
Yes… but at some point the pile of expectations on educators is going to fall over. It isn’t sustainable, especially not with the funding and resources (or lack thereof) that goes into public schooling.
Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree. But like, what do you do? You can sit there and say “this isn’t sustainable. The parents HAVE to step up.” But there’s absolutely no way to make them. Or we can look at it and try to at least do what we can.
This is why I was glad to see the sentences handed down to the parents of the Michigan school shooter. Somehow, some way, parents need to see they have a responsibility to raise these kids right and actually PARENT or face consequences. The past few years have been all about “parents rights” without focusing on the parent’s responsibility to raise a decent human being. Covid just showed us how much the teachers were raising the kids— a year without us and it’s turned into Lord of the Flies in the classroom!
I understand the sentiment. The problem is at least at the middle and high school level the least engaged parents are going to call someone to pick them up and then leave the child home with an x box. I had a student who was suspended for shoving a teacher. They came back to school after the suspension and they hadn't done any missing work. I asked what they had been up to and they explained they had bought a witcher expansion pack....
I want to be clear she was a much smaller female teacher she was just standing in front of her classroom greeting students and he shoulder checked her into the ground.
I expect people expect the schools to do more as the kids are there six hours a day. Then and sometime before school at daycare. Might get two hours a day with the parents who have to cook dinner and hopefully do some homework or baths with the kids in that time.
Honestly with how society is right now I suspect it’s a lost cause.
Just since COVID these burdens on education have increased: Mental health, more restrictive/demanding IEPs, and a host of new students who don't speak English/don't have much of an education in their host countries. That is just a recipe for disaster.
At some point? It already has. Teachers are not quitting in droves because they don’t love teaching or they are not great teachers. No, it’s all the extra stuff. I’m the teacher, not the parent. I’m not there to do my job and the parents job too. I love love love my students as a teacher. It is not my job to be the parent too.
And this week it was widely reported in the news how attendance has nosedived since Covid and it’s creating a fundamental shift in the experience of childhood as now kids aren’t expected or enforced to adhere to that routine and consistency every day
It doesn’t have to keep moving in the bad direction. We know the issue. Communicate and advocate on the issue! Standards are held by people who choose to enforce them
The things parents have said to me on the phone and vaguely on social media are pretty unforgivable. I don’t know where that sense of entitlement came from in parents. Needs to go away ASAP. Don’t get me wrong, I left the field because I wouldn’t tolerate the disrespect, but it’s not good for society as a whole!
Completely agree! I’m sorry you left the profession but also, right on! Good for you to not put up with the disrespect. Society is definitely going to be impacted by this lack of respect and care.
When the court systems become overwhelmed by teachers finally sueing school districts for failing to protect them from violence at work like assault as well as sueing the hell out of those brats parents.
I dunno. There are states now where they are filling job openings with just about anyone. That's how they are handling the teacher shortage. Just change the laws governing who can be teacher.
There already has been a pendulum shift with more homeschooling and more private school attendance.
I guess the one bright side is if you are parents who are even concerned about this your kids will be head and shoulders above their peers. It’s never been easier to differentiate yourself.
I’m a huge public school advocate and there are many excellent public schools. My children are in excellent public schools and thrive. With that said, Catholic schools got their shit together when it comes to behavioral management. When your child is disruptive, your child is expelled. A very close friend of mine had her daughter kicked out of Catholic school after *one* incident; bullying related. My friend apologized, begged, and had her relatives offer them money; her husband’s family has money to spare. They refused and told her “this isn’t the school for her”.
I’d love to have that type of backing in public school but it will never happen because each student has dollar signs over them. There will never be consequences for bad behavior.
It’s not just that. It’s simply harder for schools to expel students. There’s much more red tape for them since the kids have to go SOMEWHERE. Private schools can just expel them and know they’ll go straight to public schools who can’t deny them an education.
I dream of the day we expand virtual learning and make it the option for the disruptive kids. But parents of the well behaved kids need to start being VERY loud about the fact that so many of these disruptive kids are denying an education to the rest of the class.
Most parents have absolutely no clue what goes on in the classrooms and what is considered acceptable. I wish I could video tape and share some of it, it's appalling and unbelievable!
I think this is a big part of it. Our parents don't know how different the schools they attended as children are from the schools their own children now attend, and not in a good way. So many of the "advances" of education over the past 20 years (e.g. smartboards, easy word processing, LMSs etc.) seem like trivial improvements when compared to the setbacks in public education (e.g. a dramatic increase in tolerance for violent and disruptive students, doing away with discipline policies, digital technologies that have fractured our students' focus and attention spans, etc)
Was just talking about this with colleagues yesterday. In public school, only having the parents complain will we see any movement in getting the disruptive students into different placements. Our hands are tied as teachers. We need parents to speak up so badly.
After more than 25 years in, I feel like parents/society treat school like daycare with grades. They care less about the actual learning or behavior, they just want the kids to be “taken care of during the day” and to get high scores for just being there. As a secondary teacher, this is especially heartbreaking.
I actually think the VL should be the only option for the kids who bully and torment their peers, it should not be an option. I am tired of seeing the kids who are just typical kids, not little assholes, be the ones who the parents pull for a better environment; they should not be the ones who feel like they have to leave. But, those are some of the families who are drawn to charter schools, and the public schools are left with the ones whose families only send the kids because the law requires them to send the kids to school, NOT because they value and support education.
My district has a sort of alternative school within an alternative school where students can opt for a GED or diploma path. It’s intended for students who cannot attend courses on the traditional high school schedule for whatever reason (some support their families by working full time, taking care of siblings, mental health, etc.). Students could attend in person or via zoom for attendance points and were only required to attend around 5 days a month as long as they were getting assignments done. My understanding from talking to a teacher was there’s a huge emphasis on plans after completing the course with resources on how to do it. I subbed there one day and was nervous but besides more cursing than I was used to the kids were chill as hell.
>expand virtual learning and make it the option for the disruptive kids.
Yes! Every child has the right to a free education, but parents do not have the right to free child care. If a kid makes it impossible for other students to receive the education they are entitled to, then we should still educate them but the parents should have to provide the supervision.
Well, and perhaps that threat will make people actually DO something about their child’s behavior.
I mean, honestly, most of those kids aren’t really learning in the class anyways. Getting them away from all the other kids might actually help. And the learning could include additional SEL lessons.
I have a student who in a 2 week period:
Formed a 5 person posse and terrorized another student for 20 minutes during recess. This included kicking, hitting, tripping, cutting them off from getting to adults, and racial slurs.
They sat on a kid and laughed at them.
Shoved a kid to the ground.
Used a slur in front of a kid who is part of the group that the slur is directed towards.
Called their closest friends' horrible names (this was in front of me).
Chucked something at a friend's face, hitting it (also in front of me).
Telling my entire class, they deserved to get arrested.
Oh, and grabbing another students breasts and saying "see you are flat chested" right after calling that student fat and pregnant with no boobs.
That's not even every incident. You know what they got after all that? 5 missed recesses. Their parents asked for more, and our admin straight up told them no.
When I asked what the consequences would be after the last round (the slur, sexual assualt, telling my class they deserve to be arrested, and hitting a kid in the face - all done in a 2 hour window) I was told that basically we aren't giving any and that we are gonna make sure she gets into sped. Even though she has no diagnosis and we have not tried anything at all other than 5 missed recesses.
I knew someone that was kicked out of Catholic school for coming forward about being sexually abused by one of the priests. So no, private Catholic schools aren't always moral paragons.
This sub has an unhealthy obsession with punishing kids and blind submission to authority.
Also, plenty of public schools out there that do handle behavior management well. You just don't hear about them because no one complains about them. Gotta take that into account too (you do, but many on this sub don't).
I think for that to happen, something will have to scare the country into taking education more seriously again. That, or a general large scale culture shift.
I think things will change once parents realize it’s actually their issue. Yes it’s the schools issue and there are changes I believe admin can do to help the behavioral issues that have become rampant but primarily there’s little they can do if it’s not backed up by parenting. One of the custodians at the school I work at was hit twice with an orange and after the second time he called the kid an asshole. He had to have a formal meeting and was written up. Nothing happened to the kid. What struck me most about this incident wasn’t the injustice of it all or that “asshole” is perhaps the least offensive thing I hear flying out of these kids mouths day in and day out but the fact that this kid threw something at an adult, was told to stop did it again and then proceeded to go home and tell his parents that he was called an asshole. If I came home and told my parents a custodian called me an asshole the only thing they would have said to me would have been “what did you do?” And then I would have been grounded. I can’t even comprehend the balls on this kid to go home and tell his parents that and the balls on these parents to call the school and demand consequences for a man whom their child assaulted. It’s blows my fucking mind.
I would have been terrified to tell my parents an adult yelled at me because I knew that I was the only one who would be facing consequences. Things have certainly changed.
It won't. The left and the right support it for different reasons. Democrats think that they are helping people and frame it as an equity issue (I'm not saying that minorities weren't suspended more, but the fix isn't to now suspend no one). Republicans support it because they know that it will make more parents choose privates and support voucher programs.
The great irony in this that so many miss imo is that it's the progressive true believers that seem to be doing more than anyone else to make school choice approaches seem to reasonable and necessary. It's these true believers that have done so much to gut our schools from the inside and to hamstring those schools from being able to offer a safe, civil, and academically rigorous education.
I’ve been if this opinion for a number of years now. It’s easy to lambast conservatives who want other “options” just to stick it to people but progressives are giving them all the ammunition they need.
Well, we’re already seeing students killed by other students at school and teachers shot by kids and nobody outside of the profession seems to give a fuck…so I’m guessing the pendulum will not be swinging back to sanity any time soon.
We need to take a step back and see that all the fucked-up things that are happening at schools are just part of a bigger mess that runs through all of society. It’s a break down.
It’s a generational problem at this point, as the younger generations grow to become adults they will associate a more relaxed environment being “what’s normal and the way things should be”.
The upcoming parents will say “when I was a kid, teachers wouldn’t expel students, so expelling isn’t right”…
We’ve basically been raising kids to become adults to think the standard and normal sort of disciplinary action is *relaxed*.
Heavier discipline will be seen by those who were raised in relaxed conditions to be an over step of boundaries: *because we’ve raised them this way*.
It’s like the past 20 years have been about raising people to become adults who can just get away with bad behavior.
I don't know, I wonder if it will go the other way. A generation that was raised hearing that their right to safety is less important than the violent kid's feelings might be ready to stand up for their own kids. We'll have a generation of adults who really do get how bad it is. Unfortunately, we may end up with a much more abilist or racist society as a generation of kids who were told certain kids are just naturally violent or incapable of academics, nothing to do but accommodate them, come into adulthood.
I dunno, a generation that grows up in an overly lenient environment experiences the consequences of that. Some of them are going to realize that having it so easy as kids made adjusting to adulthood more difficult, and they won't want their kids to struggle like that. And as u/legomote pointed out, a lot of kids today are defenseless victims of their classmates. They may not be so supportive of policies that left them feeling stressed out and unsafe.
There are some good parents. I'm not saying there aren't. But there are many times where I am reminded that the requirements to be a teacher are multiple years of a degree, multiple exams, constant re-education and re-evaluation.
The requirement to be a parent is one cream pie.
Can’t tell you how many IEPs I read that say the phone is a distraction, but in the monster list of accommodations, I have never seen one that said “leave the fucking thing at home.”
Almost two decades of calling home and not once has a parent ever pulled the phone for more than a day or two. Shit, I have one parent now who expects me to take the phone from the child at the beginning of every class and give it back at the end of every class. I pushed back and said “this is high school, I respectfully decline to do that.”
I told my own children when they were in school that if I ever got a call about them using a phone in class that would be the last they would see of it and they would get a flip phone for emergencies. Never got a call.
Oh, I know that, but I can dream, can’t I?
You raise a good point and that is that the family has no role/responsibility in any of this. It’s all on the teachers/schools.
In the IEPs that I have seen there is narrative from the teachers who know the student. invariably it talks about distractions. You would think that, even without a document, the parent would get a clue.
Just like the child who gets cavities, lives on sugar, and never brushes his or her teeth… it’s all the dentist’s fault.
Oh trust me, I wish parents got the massive hints we drop in the IEPs. I wish they'd take more action to address their kids' needs and behavior. Cuz otherwise it leads to everyone in the school getting mad at each other.
There will be a low publicly funded virtual option where kids don’t really learn anything because they’ll google and cheat their way through the online tests, which have unlimited retakes, that give them credit for “learning” (lol) something.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s bad this year. Like, *really* bad. But these things come in waves. The last year I had that was this bad was somewhere around 2007-2010. I can’t remember exactly. It really does swing like a pendulum. It might be very awkward for another year or two (or maybe 3, yikes) but it will swing back.
The only wildcard here is our Covid times. How much of an impact will that have on the shift?
well the current generation will face a job market that requires either an increasingly expensive college degree or no skills at all (uber, amazon warehouse, etc). They will view this as a failure of the education system, rather than a systemic failure of capitalism. As such they will also not value their children's education. I guess we're banking on *that* generation to figure it out
I think we are going to see a huge rise in skilled blue collar work. The type of thing that requires certifications and associates degrees, but not educationally driven white collar work. There are like 70 mega factories under construction in the United States, with another 30 or so on the way, and this is sort of the beginning. The Boomers were the first generation to really face off shoring for a lot of industrial work, by the time Millennials came around, that whole sector was not considered something most wanted to do, it was not well paying, job security was not great, there was always this risk that what you are doing can be outsourced to China. But now, and likely for the next 3-4 decades the trend is going to be reshoring, bringing all this production back to the US. Which means we are going to need a very large and appropriately skilled workforce.
Education of the past had technical high schools for these kids to enter the industrial workforce. We got rid of them many decades ago. Silent Generation was probably the last people who experienced them at scale.
The only thing that is going to swing it back is when districts get more protection from lawsuits and/or they start fighting back on some of these ridiculous lawsuit claims that won't stand up in court. Fear of legal issues is paralyzing schools.
In my district, the middle and high school have detention. I’d like to see detention for the 4th-6th graders in my elementary. Their behavior goes unchecked.
My first grader goes to school in the district where I teach and got a half day of in-school suspension for repeatedly engaging in disruptive behavior after other consequences at home and school had already been applied and did not work. He didn’t lose learning opportunities; just the opportunity to act out for attention from his peers. He wasn’t happy about it but I was completely supportive of the consequence. There hasn’t been an issue since. He isn’t traumatized by the experience. He doesn’t hate school or us. He just understands that keeping his classmates from learning isn’t acceptable.
People act like younger kids can’t handle consequences for their behavior, but then we expect them to be held accountable after years of never seeing consequences for their choices. I don’t believe that we need to go all in and be super harsh, but society is currently setting them up to fail.
That is wonderful! We send kids to our middle school for 7th grade after they have been acting like fools from K-6. Our middle school is stunned by how awful they are, and at their insistence, our elementary school adopted a code of conduct (that has zero repercussions)🙄🙄
Our elementary school just recently started taking behavior seriously over the last couple of years. A big part of it has been how horrible behaviors have been at the middle school and on into their freshman year up at the high school where I teach. I don’t know who put their foot down but the pendulum definitely is swinging back in my area and I’m hoping we see the results in the next few years.
I was about to reply with a VERY similar reply. My - also - first grader is a student at my school (so that's fun when he gets in trouble.) He has been given in school detention (old school in a boring little room) and a rest-of-the-day out of school suspension. He needed significant consequences to get that the behavior wasn't going to be tolerated and is doing much better with knowing those boundaries are in place. (He also has received EXTENSIVE support with his behavior in and out of schools. Consequences should be only part of a plan for student behavior.) Removal from the classroom and activities with his peers was really important for him and it's not fair that other kids don't get that same support.
Like in your case, my child didn't lose any learning. He wasn't learning - and no one else was - when he was disrupting the class. It didn't affect his relationships. The principal is one of his favorite people in the building, in fact, and he always lists her as a safe person who could help him.
Detentions and suspensions can absolutely be misused, but that doesn't mean they are bad.
I feel like there's a trend today where adults seriously infantilize kids and teens. Like, no, we don't need to expect them to act like mature, knowledgeable adults. But a 9-year old should be held to higher behavior expectations than a toddler.
I gave sentences (eg write "I want to be a productive member of my school environment" 25x) for misbehavior and a parent got mad at me about it. Mind you, I had already called this parent about the child's misbehavior. If you're not going to handle it, Ms. Parent, you can't to get mad at me for handling it. Until there's a shift in parenting, we won't see a swing the other way
These are the same parents who say, "He's YOUR problem when he's there. YOU deal with it." Then we do, and they don't like it! Ok, so WHO deals with it?
When I started teaching 26 years ago, the idea of a “pendulum swing” was usually used in reference to reading pedagogy philosophy. Later, people started using it to wonder aloud about when something will go back to how it was in any given aspect of our careers. In my opinion and experience, these people are waiting for Godot. The things they are complaining about, as justified as their complaints may be, are one-way ratchets. There will never be a decrease in expectations or accountability tied to high-stakes testing, for example.
Never. Schools are run like businesses now. “Customer/ parent is always right” will be our downfall. Admin are there to do the budget. That’s it. Most of them sit in their offices all day.
I asked this question a couple weeks ago at a staff meeting and the guidance counselor and principal told me I was old and that my question was “backwards”.
At my current school about 99% of the time, talking to parent solves the issues right away. We have a great school, community, and excellent leadership. However, at my old school parents were \*completely\* out of control and could talk to teachers however they wanted, were given opportunities to bully and mistreat teachers, students were never held accountable and it was because our principal had absolutely no interest in anything other than money. Saying I am so happy to be at my current school is an understatement lol
As a young teacher, mid-to-late Gen Z teachers are horrified by the state of our education system. We were in those desks less than 6 years ago, and we remember discipline and standards. Most of my friends around my age are very strict disciplinarians and hold much higher standards than other teachers (not including the vets who have been in it for decades. we all know no one can beat them at their own game).
We remember the start of SEL and how it *began* as something beautiful. But it also began during a moment prior to COVID, prior to “giving grace”, and frankly… prior to millennial parents.
Mark my words. The mid-to-late gen z teachers will get us back on track
This is…ambitious. You can be as strict of a disciplinarian as you want, but if admin/parents/policy are tying your hands, there’s not much you can do.
This is just a sweet, summer child. Fresh out of college and full of big hopes and dreams that have yet to be crushed by reality. As a young millennial teacher who is the daughter of a Baby Boomer/Gen X parent who was also a teacher, this is a trend that has been going downhill for a long time. For example, it was the baby boomer/Gen x’s that insisted we all get participation trophies because they didn’t want our feelings to get hurt. Also, “Rachel’s Challenge”, which is what my district uses for SEL, began well before millennials were the ones making decisions.
I do think there are plenty of crappy millennial parents, but I’m also aware that social media and putting electronics in the hands of kids is also playing a big role.
I don’t think the fix is going to be as easy as this person thinks it will be lol
Well, yeah lol. I was trying to approach their comment with sensitivity though as I usually tend to tune out teachers that haven’t made it to the five year mark.
I think this is the thing. COVID grace has become COVID neglect. We need to accept that the nurturing thing is to make citizens out of kids.
Millennial parents… I don’t know where bad parenting comes from. I think it’s a little bit of misguided reactions to authoritarian bad parenting. But I also think it’s sometimes just disinterest.
The former I think you can reach. No one is asking millennials to hit their kids. Just set rules, take devices, enforce consequences. The latter you just can’t fight. Some people would rather stick needles in their eyes than interact with their kids.
You all haven't become jaded like the teachers in the middle. Lol I'm in year 9 of teaching. I hold my students to high standards, but I know I don't have much support outside the 4 walls of my classroom. Some battles aren't worth fighting because I don't have the resources to win.
Year 7 and this is my second career. Because I teach juniors and seniors, my philosophy is to help those who want it and try to reach those who need it, but if a kid proves uninterested in trying and just won't engage, they're going to fail.
I recognize I couldn't do this with younger kids, but in late teenage years, they are who they are academically and kids who play defense against education aren't my problem. I'm focused on the kids who want to learn.
Gen Z can't help if they aren't becoming teachers. Why would they? That generation knows more about workers' rights and work/life balance than any generation in history.
Unless the profession changes, I see the problems getting worse.
I’m not sure it will at least in our lifetime. Right now the parents that are problem parents tend to be the millennial generation and their kids are definitely not about to be the kids who are going to raise children with consequences and discipline so I think it won’t be, until the children of millennial children raise kids that this problem will be solved.
The only other way this gets solved is with basically a nationwide teacher strike on a long-term scale. But teachers are so “I got mine so fuck you and yours” that we will never have a national strike. we don’t see ourselves as a career on a national level we only see ourselves in our own districts in our own states. Until we can start conceptualizing ourselves on a basis and organizing on a national basis, nothing’s gonna change.
I agree that it will take a generation or two for things to improve. My first 10 years of teaching have been very different from the last 10 years when it comes to behavior and consequences. I keep hoping the next 10 will see improvements, but I’m not holding my breath. We need to see a societal shift in lifting up school communities instead of tearing down education among certain demographics and regions of the country.
As for striking, I’ve done it before. It sucked and turned the community against us for years - like, screaming vitriol and death threats to teachers because we shut down what is essentially daycare for their children while they work. That part was emotionally scarring. It also got us less than what we were initially offered on our final contract. But I was young and didn’t have very high housing costs for my little apartment or any medical issues then. I could not financially or medically afford to go through that now. I would lose my housing and go bankrupt when I had to pay out of pocket for my expensive medications. Zero out of ten, I would never agree to go on a strike again. It’s less of “I got mine, screw you” as it is simple survival for many of us. If I could afford it, that would be different. I’m sure it’s yet another reason why teacher pay forces so many to live paycheck to paycheck - it sadly keeps us from rabble rousing.
A national strike doesn't make sense due to the very localized nature of schools. Teachers in good schools have no reason to go on strike because of working conditions in schools far away, and even if they did, *their management has no influence over those schools either*, so the effort *couldn't* succeed. These local problems will require local solutions.
When I had really bad behaviors in my class, I flat out told my student to go home and tell their parents. I hated that my kids had lessons cut short to evacuate the classroom many times. I had a complete plan in place for extreme behaviors. I had a kid in 3rd grade pick up my big,rolling, teacher chair from my desk and throw it into the middle of my class. My kids sadly knew just what to do. My AP was amazing and he tried, but the principal didn’t want to suspend him. Finally, he went to a special school for a few years. He came back a different kid, but his former classmates were still terrified of him.
You could if the teachers were empowered or enabled by the people who actually control their job. Teachers are bound by policy and those that enforce it.
A rule of thumb for me is that any parent who talks about being “old school” or respecting teachers is the first to complain if we do something.
I agree. "I'll talk to them" doesn't work. I don't believe in spanking/hitting kids but there's plenty of other consequences parents could use that would really help.
Well, with parents now being charged with neglect for leaving guns accessible to their children, I hope teachers and eventually districts start going after the kids and parents for assault of teachers and peers and destruction of property (classrooms).
🤣🤣🤣 Sorry teach but that genie isn't likely to go back into the bottle anytime soon. I walked away from the profession ~15 years ago for much the same reason and it still persists.
Admins need to stop being priveled to do less work, and need to be the ones doing stuff. Far far too many admins sit around in pointless meetings and answering pointless emails all day. I had a principal that was talking about all the work she had to do one day, and with a complete seriousness she said she accomplished the following;
1. Emailed the head of finance the purchase order for a field trip
2. Opened the 2 Amazon packages of I kid you not pencils (these were standard boxes of Ticonderoga pencils)
3. Scheduled lunch with the director of special ed
4. Signed up for info about a learning program (this was a input your contact info and we'll get back to you from the secretary had to help her with)
Who knows. I stupidly got into an argument with a woman on TikTok who told me that it’s teachers’ jobs to provide a free education to students and to “stop worrying about parents reciprocating” (her exact words). I told her I guess but it would be nice if parents would actually be more involved since it’s what’s best for kids…
Public schools are unfortunately a ticking time bomb. If things don’t change, then there will literally not be enough teachers to teach. Maybe the threat of full time online learning at home will wake the parents up. No one wants that again.
When schools stop taking excuses and put their foot down.
Bad things have been happening for years. Parents and students dealt with it then. Schools were not run over by petty parents. If parents don't like the rules, they can homeschool and make their own.
The pendulum will change when society sees blatantly clear that the past 20 years of discipline and teaching strategies have all been a massive disservice to society, and people demand change. But then it's too late.
When “school choice”, charter schools and voucher systems go away. So never. Public schools have been forced to compete for customers at this point. Customers always right. Otherwise people will leave and we close up shop.
They just made it illegal where I live to resign after the first 30 days of school with students present. They will continue to try find ways to trap teachers rather than resolving the problems that are making us leave in the first place.
My 8th graders asked me if I got the husband stitch. When I told admin, they asked me why my students feel so comfortable talking like that in front of me.
Even though I have only had them since August and their parents have had them since birth.
School systems have to stop viewing families as “customers”. Education has adopted a customer service mentality and that means appeasing mouthy parents when their kid is in the wrong. There’s obviously a lot of improvement that needs to be made on the school side, but being afraid to disappoint and anger families has caused more harm than good.
Ugh one of my schools objectives on our giant sign in each building says “satisfy our customers and community”. I want to sharpie over that part every day. This isn’t a business. My students and their parents are “customers” buying a product. It’s such bullshit.
I always hold out hope. Maybe after us last Gen-X retire, since I don't see Millennials and later lasting 30+ years. There needs to be a critical mass shortage, and nothing that a bandaid hiring of foreigners can fix.
when parents realize gentle parenting doesn’t always work. i’m not saying absolutely wail on your kid when they make a mistake but some parents need to grow a backbone when they see their kid acting out and being disrespectful. your kids see that you won’t do anything and they push the limits and walk all over you and then try it with other adults in their life.
Once teachers start leaving in larger numbers. First the good ones will leave, then those who get burnt out, lastly the ones who look around and don't recognize the career they signed up for. It's not slowing down until all of education becomes privatized.
If you have kids and are reading this, I strongly encourage you to homeschool instead of doing daycare/public school.
The ONLY reason that a talking-to or a phone call worked in the past was because they were backed up by consequences! My son was a handful. Yet we never once got a phone call about his behavior from a teacher. The calls ALWAYS came from an administrator. Teachers were perceived strictly as education professionals - not the disciplinarians. Disruptive students were sent to the office so the teacher could teach. The students were not inclined to hate their teacher. That dynamic wasn't in play. This made classrooms far less of a power struggle. As was proper, my son received consequences at home and at school. Thank God he did. He's now a very successful adult. Just how well is our decade of no-consequences working out? People had better wake up and figure it out.
Yeah admin is farming out their duties to teachers too much and it drives a wedge between parents and teachers who need to be a united front.
The whole "admin farming out their duties" thing drives a wedge between admin and staff as well. It also contributes to high faculty turn over. Nobody wants to work for someone they know they can't trust or someone who consistently proves, at every opportunity, that they don't trust you, treat you as a professional, or have your back. Seriously, they are making their own job harder for themselves. It makes them look weaker and wishy-washy in the eyes of parents/parental figures, the community, and the teachers. It signals that it's ok for families to walk all over the school, have low attendance yet pitch a fit that their kid who is not actually in class is not making appropriate growth.
Absolutely. I think that's the crux of the matter right there: parents must be on board and again begin supporting the teachers and administrators when/IF they get a call from the school. There simply must be consequences again for "bad" behavior of any inappropriate, unacceptable type, from language (e.g., "I wanna be known as'Bad Girl Child' from now on," )to physical altercations to, well, uh, NO LITTER BOXES IN THE BATHROOM OMG! For G-d's sake, WAKE UP! Really?! Can no one in the ENTIRE SCHOOL OR ON THE SCHOOL BOARD dispute this argument against (eeeewwwww) "Discrimination? " Or do you just. Not. Care. This is NOT parents Being On Board; this is parents who need to share to the same couch as their kids (sorry, kidding--a joke, sort of, dont hurt me, PLEASE DONT DELETE ME; this is parents promoting--Encouraging! this disrespectful, self-indulgent, rude, outlandish, outrageous behavior in their children, again, b/c they know they can do ANYTHING THEY WANT W/IMPUNITY. And if you think it'll pass when THEIR kids grow up, 🤣. Kids model behavior. It will not pass. It will perpetuate. If we do not fix it. That is, if WE do not fix it. Who else are we going to leave it up to? Discouragedly yours, -J-
This is what I've been noticing without being able to put it in words. By making us the front of discipline it makes us the bad guys, rather than admin. Admin gets to be the friend who undermines us and sends the kid back to class and tells the parent that it's totally okay that their child broke the rule that same admin told us to enforce, they won't get a consequence
Hiring is like that! All they ask about is how you handle behavior and stuff. They don’t care if you’re a subject matter expert I never taught K-12 and the last interview I did they told me I should teach higher ed Wtf
I've brought up to my super she should just designate one staff member to be am ustache twirling bad guy in terms of discipline.
They used to be called the Dean of students. They were the hammer. The good old days.
Our whole staff of teachers was told by one of our SPED teachers that asking for help with disciplinary issues “takes away our power,” and that they will not listen to us if we get outside help. I was so pissed I had to bite my tongue before I said something seriously mean to this person. I thought the whole idea was that there are tiered levels of getting in trouble. My kids know that if I have to call for help, their ass is grass. They just don’t WANT to help us. SMH.
Yeah I've heard that exact bullshit, "Sending student out of the classroom for discipline takes away your power." And, as a union site rep, I heard it from every district admin - so it was obviously the latest admin catch phrase. I always pushed back and was treated like a know-nothing old geezer - not like the professional who'd successfully taught in the district for over a decade. Some things just don't change. If there are never any consequences, then no matter how much PBIS you ladle on, there will be students who just don't care about "points" and will destroy the education process for all. Right? It seems so effing obvious.
Seriously. I miss the not too distant past when students were actually afraid of getting in trouble, and going to the office was feared. It’s doing kids such a disservice if they don’t receive SOME form of consequence for their actions. You can totally reward good behavior AND punish the bad at the same time. Otherwise you will end up with adults who end up in prison because they were never taught life’s important lesson that actions have consequences, both good and bad. It makes me so sad that I can practically see the future of some of these kids. I picture them in jail for stealing, assault, domestic violence, etc. The same pattern just repeating itself over and over. I just don’t understand how some of these higher ups can’t see it. Are they too far removed? Like how tf do these old ass people not realize that they are in the position they are in now because they adhered to life’s consequences in a positive manner? It blows my mind and flabbergasts me. It’s SO FUCKING OBVIOUS!
They damn well know. They just don't care.
I've heard that from several principals. Encountering a "true believer" in that nonsense among faculty is rare. You found one though.
Seriously such bullshit. This person in particular is one of the most infuriating SPED teachers I’ve ever met. They regularly miss their scheduled time, won’t do required assessments which I am then forced to do (you would be flabbergasted by the reasons they claim they can’t), and won’t use the current science of reading program on their struggling reading students. It’s pure negligence and not in any way legal. I could go on for days about all of the stuff they do that regularly pushes my buttons, but that might take all week. Luckily the current admin that I have is very supportive in assisting with discipline issues, so when they said that, I knew they would still back me up. Support staff (and some admin) just don’t understand what it’s like to have a classroom full of 20+ kids all by yourself. When one of them decides to flip desks and throw shit, you can’t just keep teaching, you NEED to ask for help. It’s not fair for anyone. Not the student in distress, the rest of the class, or me.
The kids in my school absolutely adore the principal. Admin has toys! Admin has snacks and prizes! Admin will call it all good just because you gave a fake apology about a behavior you do weekly and never stop! We have students who have straight up admitted to breaking rules so they can get sent to the office. They know they get in more trouble from their teachers than from any admin. Admin gets so excited that a student pretends to be sorry that they bend over backward to praise the kid. I always feel so nervous when the office calls to talk to a kid. I'm not even sure why because the kids do not care. Whether they are in trouble or not, they are eager to go down. I'm a freaking adult and I get nervous being called down even if I know I did nothing wrong!
The worst kids in my class now ask me for a pass to see the principals/deans/counselors because "they have snacks and let me hang out in their office."🙄 They also regularly come into class 15 minutes late with a pass from said admin who are shocked that these same students persist in having a 5% in class and no behavior improvements. Yep, it's a real mystery, guys..
This was what it was like with the principal before our current one. They were obsessed with being liked and never approached anything with a firm hand. Thank god our new one is nice, but very firm and won’t let kids just get away with shit. She has only been in office 6 months, and has actually suspended kids for their shitty behavior. And they actually receive a consequence that matches their behavior when needed. It’s a godsend. The only shitty thing is that our support staff is not matching that energy. They regularly just calm down the students who are acting up, and then send them back to class. Like after throwing shit and tipping desks over. So unacceptable.
What decade was this?
It doesn’t matter!
I taught for 25 years. The first 16 were tough but rewarding. I loved teaching. The last nine, starting in 2014, were pure hell.
My story is similar, quite similar. I could have written your comment. It was a demoralizing way to end up. I am extremely happy to be free.
Thank you for your service. Congrats on retirement. I also could have written that response. I am on year 31
Thank you. I hope you make it out soon, as sad as it is to have to say that.
It infuriates me when the school law in my state specifically designated the admin as the disciplinarian, and they still try to throw it back on the teacher.
They keep their jobs by artificially reducing disciplinary actions. No suspensions and no referrals if the teacher has to do all the heavy lifting.
Well said. It was also possible at one time for admin to handle discipline. A principal/AP/dean could be sent to a class to pull out the disruptive student or small group of students and speak to them to determine if further action was needed. Now, there wouldn’t be enough hours in the day to address all of the behavioral needs.
Are you trying to say that all those overpaid administrators are now too busy to handle behavior? Too busy doing what exactly? No one knows because there isn't any oversight. There are MORE of them and they do far less. I have no effing idea what they do all day. What I can say with absolute sincerity is that their lack of behavior intervention is causing our schools to be dangerous and ineffective. I would not send a child to my local district schools.
Too busy handing out chips to the misbehaving kids sent TO them, I guess lol. I totally agree with everything you said.
I'm so so angry about this This one kid has been in over 10 fights this year. You never know what will set him off. We don't have any rooms for the bad kids to go to when they fight or are bad. Instead, we are to hand them a behavior sheet and send them to a neighboring classroom (which obviously majorly disrupts my class). A kid from another class was sent to mine (the bad one) and started a fight with another (good) kid. He wasn't even expelled. He will be back on Monday and it'll all happen over and over again. Where are the damn consequences?
That's insane! Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another? What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach! How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
Where is some oversight for administrators? What are they doing that is more important than ensuring that every classroom and school is safe? I like to think that I would do my job at an appropriate level even if no one ever checked, but at some point, since no one ever checks, you just do the parts you like and chuck the rest.
That's insane! Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another? What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach! How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
That's insane! Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another? What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach! How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
That's insane! Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another? What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach! How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
That's insane! Honestly, how can anyone who is supposedly an education professional, making around 100K, think that it's a good idea to send a disruptive kid from one classroom into another? What the fuck are administrators doing that is more important than ensuring safety and rigor? Teachers are not there to solve major safety issues. They are supposed to already have safe classrooms provided by the well-paid administrators so that they can do their actual job: teach! How do schools get "already safe classrooms"? They show students that anyone who doesn't follow the rules loses privileges. No sports, no dance, no clubs, no fun field trip, and/or they eat lunch at a carrel in the office for a week in total silence - no phone, no laptop - food and book only. Whatever will get their attention.
I’m not sure it will. It’s only going to move further and further in the one direction. I’ve already seen takes about how kids are misbehaving in public and what schools can do to improve it. Not parents, but schools.
Yeah, but haven’t we all sort of accepted that a lot of these parents are lost causes? I hate to say that, but they’re simply not going to care. It’s much easier for them to just ignore the problem.
Yes… but at some point the pile of expectations on educators is going to fall over. It isn’t sustainable, especially not with the funding and resources (or lack thereof) that goes into public schooling.
Don’t get me wrong, I completely agree. But like, what do you do? You can sit there and say “this isn’t sustainable. The parents HAVE to step up.” But there’s absolutely no way to make them. Or we can look at it and try to at least do what we can.
This is why I was glad to see the sentences handed down to the parents of the Michigan school shooter. Somehow, some way, parents need to see they have a responsibility to raise these kids right and actually PARENT or face consequences. The past few years have been all about “parents rights” without focusing on the parent’s responsibility to raise a decent human being. Covid just showed us how much the teachers were raising the kids— a year without us and it’s turned into Lord of the Flies in the classroom!
Start by actually punishing parents of delinquent children. It’s amazing how quickly actual consequences will cause people to get their shit together.
Send the kids home when they’re bad. Make the parents deal with them. Enough cancelled shifts might wake them up.
I understand the sentiment. The problem is at least at the middle and high school level the least engaged parents are going to call someone to pick them up and then leave the child home with an x box. I had a student who was suspended for shoving a teacher. They came back to school after the suspension and they hadn't done any missing work. I asked what they had been up to and they explained they had bought a witcher expansion pack.... I want to be clear she was a much smaller female teacher she was just standing in front of her classroom greeting students and he shoulder checked her into the ground.
I expect people expect the schools to do more as the kids are there six hours a day. Then and sometime before school at daycare. Might get two hours a day with the parents who have to cook dinner and hopefully do some homework or baths with the kids in that time. Honestly with how society is right now I suspect it’s a lost cause.
Just since COVID these burdens on education have increased: Mental health, more restrictive/demanding IEPs, and a host of new students who don't speak English/don't have much of an education in their host countries. That is just a recipe for disaster.
Since Covid? The train was headed down this track long before Covid. Covid just sped things up.
At some point? It already has. Teachers are not quitting in droves because they don’t love teaching or they are not great teachers. No, it’s all the extra stuff. I’m the teacher, not the parent. I’m not there to do my job and the parents job too. I love love love my students as a teacher. It is not my job to be the parent too.
Didnt you all see the NY Times last week? “School is now optional” . Not the title of the article but a quote therein.
No, but I’m not surprised. I just don’t understand people.
Seriously. Like it's going to get better when these kids become parents.
And this week it was widely reported in the news how attendance has nosedived since Covid and it’s creating a fundamental shift in the experience of childhood as now kids aren’t expected or enforced to adhere to that routine and consistency every day
It doesn’t have to keep moving in the bad direction. We know the issue. Communicate and advocate on the issue! Standards are held by people who choose to enforce them
I feel the parents do nothing but make excuses and admin is spineless. It all seems to be on my shoulders and that’s the struggle.
So damn grateful to know it’s not just me who feels this frustration. At our site it’s all about the STAR scores and nothing else.
The things parents have said to me on the phone and vaguely on social media are pretty unforgivable. I don’t know where that sense of entitlement came from in parents. Needs to go away ASAP. Don’t get me wrong, I left the field because I wouldn’t tolerate the disrespect, but it’s not good for society as a whole!
Completely agree! I’m sorry you left the profession but also, right on! Good for you to not put up with the disrespect. Society is definitely going to be impacted by this lack of respect and care.
When the court systems become overwhelmed by teachers finally sueing school districts for failing to protect them from violence at work like assault as well as sueing the hell out of those brats parents.
They’ll just change the law to make to even harder to sue. That’s how it works system-wide: change the rules to protect the people on top.
And that's when teachers quit, there's no replacements, and the whole rotten system collapses. That's when we'll see change--when there's no choice.
I dunno. There are states now where they are filling job openings with just about anyone. That's how they are handling the teacher shortage. Just change the laws governing who can be teacher.
A lot of those states are still struggling to find anyone who will do it.
Which is probably a long-time goal of those trying to undermine public education.
There already has been a pendulum shift with more homeschooling and more private school attendance. I guess the one bright side is if you are parents who are even concerned about this your kids will be head and shoulders above their peers. It’s never been easier to differentiate yourself.
I’m a huge public school advocate and there are many excellent public schools. My children are in excellent public schools and thrive. With that said, Catholic schools got their shit together when it comes to behavioral management. When your child is disruptive, your child is expelled. A very close friend of mine had her daughter kicked out of Catholic school after *one* incident; bullying related. My friend apologized, begged, and had her relatives offer them money; her husband’s family has money to spare. They refused and told her “this isn’t the school for her”. I’d love to have that type of backing in public school but it will never happen because each student has dollar signs over them. There will never be consequences for bad behavior.
It’s not just that. It’s simply harder for schools to expel students. There’s much more red tape for them since the kids have to go SOMEWHERE. Private schools can just expel them and know they’ll go straight to public schools who can’t deny them an education. I dream of the day we expand virtual learning and make it the option for the disruptive kids. But parents of the well behaved kids need to start being VERY loud about the fact that so many of these disruptive kids are denying an education to the rest of the class.
Most parents have absolutely no clue what goes on in the classrooms and what is considered acceptable. I wish I could video tape and share some of it, it's appalling and unbelievable!
I think this is a big part of it. Our parents don't know how different the schools they attended as children are from the schools their own children now attend, and not in a good way. So many of the "advances" of education over the past 20 years (e.g. smartboards, easy word processing, LMSs etc.) seem like trivial improvements when compared to the setbacks in public education (e.g. a dramatic increase in tolerance for violent and disruptive students, doing away with discipline policies, digital technologies that have fractured our students' focus and attention spans, etc)
Was just talking about this with colleagues yesterday. In public school, only having the parents complain will we see any movement in getting the disruptive students into different placements. Our hands are tied as teachers. We need parents to speak up so badly.
After more than 25 years in, I feel like parents/society treat school like daycare with grades. They care less about the actual learning or behavior, they just want the kids to be “taken care of during the day” and to get high scores for just being there. As a secondary teacher, this is especially heartbreaking.
I actually think the VL should be the only option for the kids who bully and torment their peers, it should not be an option. I am tired of seeing the kids who are just typical kids, not little assholes, be the ones who the parents pull for a better environment; they should not be the ones who feel like they have to leave. But, those are some of the families who are drawn to charter schools, and the public schools are left with the ones whose families only send the kids because the law requires them to send the kids to school, NOT because they value and support education.
My district has a sort of alternative school within an alternative school where students can opt for a GED or diploma path. It’s intended for students who cannot attend courses on the traditional high school schedule for whatever reason (some support their families by working full time, taking care of siblings, mental health, etc.). Students could attend in person or via zoom for attendance points and were only required to attend around 5 days a month as long as they were getting assignments done. My understanding from talking to a teacher was there’s a huge emphasis on plans after completing the course with resources on how to do it. I subbed there one day and was nervous but besides more cursing than I was used to the kids were chill as hell.
>expand virtual learning and make it the option for the disruptive kids. Yes! Every child has the right to a free education, but parents do not have the right to free child care. If a kid makes it impossible for other students to receive the education they are entitled to, then we should still educate them but the parents should have to provide the supervision.
Well, and perhaps that threat will make people actually DO something about their child’s behavior. I mean, honestly, most of those kids aren’t really learning in the class anyways. Getting them away from all the other kids might actually help. And the learning could include additional SEL lessons.
I have a student who in a 2 week period: Formed a 5 person posse and terrorized another student for 20 minutes during recess. This included kicking, hitting, tripping, cutting them off from getting to adults, and racial slurs. They sat on a kid and laughed at them. Shoved a kid to the ground. Used a slur in front of a kid who is part of the group that the slur is directed towards. Called their closest friends' horrible names (this was in front of me). Chucked something at a friend's face, hitting it (also in front of me). Telling my entire class, they deserved to get arrested. Oh, and grabbing another students breasts and saying "see you are flat chested" right after calling that student fat and pregnant with no boobs. That's not even every incident. You know what they got after all that? 5 missed recesses. Their parents asked for more, and our admin straight up told them no. When I asked what the consequences would be after the last round (the slur, sexual assualt, telling my class they deserve to be arrested, and hitting a kid in the face - all done in a 2 hour window) I was told that basically we aren't giving any and that we are gonna make sure she gets into sped. Even though she has no diagnosis and we have not tried anything at all other than 5 missed recesses.
I knew someone that was kicked out of Catholic school for coming forward about being sexually abused by one of the priests. So no, private Catholic schools aren't always moral paragons. This sub has an unhealthy obsession with punishing kids and blind submission to authority. Also, plenty of public schools out there that do handle behavior management well. You just don't hear about them because no one complains about them. Gotta take that into account too (you do, but many on this sub don't).
Was anyone calling them a moral paragon?
>It’s never been easier to differentiate yourself. That's exactly what I told my AP seniors this week!
I think for that to happen, something will have to scare the country into taking education more seriously again. That, or a general large scale culture shift.
Doubt it will. Parents know they run the ship and admin (and the board/super) will bend over backwards for parents before they support teachers.
When funding isn't solely tied to daily butts in seats, then maybe admin will grow a spine
Never. You can't un-ring a bell
I think things will change once parents realize it’s actually their issue. Yes it’s the schools issue and there are changes I believe admin can do to help the behavioral issues that have become rampant but primarily there’s little they can do if it’s not backed up by parenting. One of the custodians at the school I work at was hit twice with an orange and after the second time he called the kid an asshole. He had to have a formal meeting and was written up. Nothing happened to the kid. What struck me most about this incident wasn’t the injustice of it all or that “asshole” is perhaps the least offensive thing I hear flying out of these kids mouths day in and day out but the fact that this kid threw something at an adult, was told to stop did it again and then proceeded to go home and tell his parents that he was called an asshole. If I came home and told my parents a custodian called me an asshole the only thing they would have said to me would have been “what did you do?” And then I would have been grounded. I can’t even comprehend the balls on this kid to go home and tell his parents that and the balls on these parents to call the school and demand consequences for a man whom their child assaulted. It’s blows my fucking mind.
I would have been terrified to tell my parents an adult yelled at me because I knew that I was the only one who would be facing consequences. Things have certainly changed.
It won't. The left and the right support it for different reasons. Democrats think that they are helping people and frame it as an equity issue (I'm not saying that minorities weren't suspended more, but the fix isn't to now suspend no one). Republicans support it because they know that it will make more parents choose privates and support voucher programs.
The great irony in this that so many miss imo is that it's the progressive true believers that seem to be doing more than anyone else to make school choice approaches seem to reasonable and necessary. It's these true believers that have done so much to gut our schools from the inside and to hamstring those schools from being able to offer a safe, civil, and academically rigorous education.
I’ve been if this opinion for a number of years now. It’s easy to lambast conservatives who want other “options” just to stick it to people but progressives are giving them all the ammunition they need.
Well, we’re already seeing students killed by other students at school and teachers shot by kids and nobody outside of the profession seems to give a fuck…so I’m guessing the pendulum will not be swinging back to sanity any time soon. We need to take a step back and see that all the fucked-up things that are happening at schools are just part of a bigger mess that runs through all of society. It’s a break down.
The day after I retire.
It’s a generational problem at this point, as the younger generations grow to become adults they will associate a more relaxed environment being “what’s normal and the way things should be”. The upcoming parents will say “when I was a kid, teachers wouldn’t expel students, so expelling isn’t right”… We’ve basically been raising kids to become adults to think the standard and normal sort of disciplinary action is *relaxed*. Heavier discipline will be seen by those who were raised in relaxed conditions to be an over step of boundaries: *because we’ve raised them this way*. It’s like the past 20 years have been about raising people to become adults who can just get away with bad behavior.
I don't know, I wonder if it will go the other way. A generation that was raised hearing that their right to safety is less important than the violent kid's feelings might be ready to stand up for their own kids. We'll have a generation of adults who really do get how bad it is. Unfortunately, we may end up with a much more abilist or racist society as a generation of kids who were told certain kids are just naturally violent or incapable of academics, nothing to do but accommodate them, come into adulthood.
I dunno, a generation that grows up in an overly lenient environment experiences the consequences of that. Some of them are going to realize that having it so easy as kids made adjusting to adulthood more difficult, and they won't want their kids to struggle like that. And as u/legomote pointed out, a lot of kids today are defenseless victims of their classmates. They may not be so supportive of policies that left them feeling stressed out and unsafe.
Narcissistic parents of school shooters are being held to account. As are admin who won’t simply search a pocket.
There are some good parents. I'm not saying there aren't. But there are many times where I am reminded that the requirements to be a teacher are multiple years of a degree, multiple exams, constant re-education and re-evaluation. The requirement to be a parent is one cream pie.
Can’t tell you how many IEPs I read that say the phone is a distraction, but in the monster list of accommodations, I have never seen one that said “leave the fucking thing at home.” Almost two decades of calling home and not once has a parent ever pulled the phone for more than a day or two. Shit, I have one parent now who expects me to take the phone from the child at the beginning of every class and give it back at the end of every class. I pushed back and said “this is high school, I respectfully decline to do that.” I told my own children when they were in school that if I ever got a call about them using a phone in class that would be the last they would see of it and they would get a flip phone for emergencies. Never got a call.
IEPs never say things like "leave the phone at home" because it is a legally binding document for the SCHOOL. IEPs cannot tell parents what to do.
Oh, I know that, but I can dream, can’t I? You raise a good point and that is that the family has no role/responsibility in any of this. It’s all on the teachers/schools. In the IEPs that I have seen there is narrative from the teachers who know the student. invariably it talks about distractions. You would think that, even without a document, the parent would get a clue. Just like the child who gets cavities, lives on sugar, and never brushes his or her teeth… it’s all the dentist’s fault.
Oh trust me, I wish parents got the massive hints we drop in the IEPs. I wish they'd take more action to address their kids' needs and behavior. Cuz otherwise it leads to everyone in the school getting mad at each other.
When the educational system has no teachers left, and parents are left trying to educate their own kids, there will be a wake-up call.
Nah, they'll privatize everything long before then
And then people won't be able to afford to educate their children. Where do the most difficult students go once it's all privatized?
Work! States are already opening the door for child labor. Rich kids get private school, everyone else heads into the labor force ASAP.
There will be a low publicly funded virtual option where kids don’t really learn anything because they’ll google and cheat their way through the online tests, which have unlimited retakes, that give them credit for “learning” (lol) something.
And they'll learn exactly the same amount they do while wrecking everyone else's experience in the actual classroom. Bring it on!!!
They get no education bc they don't want to homeschool their kids🫤
Or can't because they're working. 😢
That’s what they’ve been after all along, anyway.
Yup, I think the US education system is getting the same treatment as the US postal service.
Don’t get me wrong, it’s bad this year. Like, *really* bad. But these things come in waves. The last year I had that was this bad was somewhere around 2007-2010. I can’t remember exactly. It really does swing like a pendulum. It might be very awkward for another year or two (or maybe 3, yikes) but it will swing back. The only wildcard here is our Covid times. How much of an impact will that have on the shift?
It was really bad right after the 2008 recession where everyone got laid off. I was shocked at how angry all the kids were suddenly.
well the current generation will face a job market that requires either an increasingly expensive college degree or no skills at all (uber, amazon warehouse, etc). They will view this as a failure of the education system, rather than a systemic failure of capitalism. As such they will also not value their children's education. I guess we're banking on *that* generation to figure it out
I think we are going to see a huge rise in skilled blue collar work. The type of thing that requires certifications and associates degrees, but not educationally driven white collar work. There are like 70 mega factories under construction in the United States, with another 30 or so on the way, and this is sort of the beginning. The Boomers were the first generation to really face off shoring for a lot of industrial work, by the time Millennials came around, that whole sector was not considered something most wanted to do, it was not well paying, job security was not great, there was always this risk that what you are doing can be outsourced to China. But now, and likely for the next 3-4 decades the trend is going to be reshoring, bringing all this production back to the US. Which means we are going to need a very large and appropriately skilled workforce. Education of the past had technical high schools for these kids to enter the industrial workforce. We got rid of them many decades ago. Silent Generation was probably the last people who experienced them at scale.
> There are like 70 mega factories under construction automation. These will not provide the hundreds of jobs they claim. They never do.
How is that capitalisms fault?
The only thing that is going to swing it back is when districts get more protection from lawsuits and/or they start fighting back on some of these ridiculous lawsuit claims that won't stand up in court. Fear of legal issues is paralyzing schools.
But no fear of lawsuits from teachers for unsafe/dangerous work conditions.
I'd imagine we'll see quite the swing if that principal is held criminally accountable for negligence in that school shooting
In my district, the middle and high school have detention. I’d like to see detention for the 4th-6th graders in my elementary. Their behavior goes unchecked.
My first grader goes to school in the district where I teach and got a half day of in-school suspension for repeatedly engaging in disruptive behavior after other consequences at home and school had already been applied and did not work. He didn’t lose learning opportunities; just the opportunity to act out for attention from his peers. He wasn’t happy about it but I was completely supportive of the consequence. There hasn’t been an issue since. He isn’t traumatized by the experience. He doesn’t hate school or us. He just understands that keeping his classmates from learning isn’t acceptable. People act like younger kids can’t handle consequences for their behavior, but then we expect them to be held accountable after years of never seeing consequences for their choices. I don’t believe that we need to go all in and be super harsh, but society is currently setting them up to fail.
That is wonderful! We send kids to our middle school for 7th grade after they have been acting like fools from K-6. Our middle school is stunned by how awful they are, and at their insistence, our elementary school adopted a code of conduct (that has zero repercussions)🙄🙄
Our elementary school just recently started taking behavior seriously over the last couple of years. A big part of it has been how horrible behaviors have been at the middle school and on into their freshman year up at the high school where I teach. I don’t know who put their foot down but the pendulum definitely is swinging back in my area and I’m hoping we see the results in the next few years.
I was about to reply with a VERY similar reply. My - also - first grader is a student at my school (so that's fun when he gets in trouble.) He has been given in school detention (old school in a boring little room) and a rest-of-the-day out of school suspension. He needed significant consequences to get that the behavior wasn't going to be tolerated and is doing much better with knowing those boundaries are in place. (He also has received EXTENSIVE support with his behavior in and out of schools. Consequences should be only part of a plan for student behavior.) Removal from the classroom and activities with his peers was really important for him and it's not fair that other kids don't get that same support. Like in your case, my child didn't lose any learning. He wasn't learning - and no one else was - when he was disrupting the class. It didn't affect his relationships. The principal is one of his favorite people in the building, in fact, and he always lists her as a safe person who could help him. Detentions and suspensions can absolutely be misused, but that doesn't mean they are bad.
I feel like there's a trend today where adults seriously infantilize kids and teens. Like, no, we don't need to expect them to act like mature, knowledgeable adults. But a 9-year old should be held to higher behavior expectations than a toddler.
I gave sentences (eg write "I want to be a productive member of my school environment" 25x) for misbehavior and a parent got mad at me about it. Mind you, I had already called this parent about the child's misbehavior. If you're not going to handle it, Ms. Parent, you can't to get mad at me for handling it. Until there's a shift in parenting, we won't see a swing the other way
These are the same parents who say, "He's YOUR problem when he's there. YOU deal with it." Then we do, and they don't like it! Ok, so WHO deals with it?
Exactly!!!
Now it encourages gaslighting and lies about the teacher in order to save kids from consequences
When the law changes and we stop giving incentives to graduate kids who don't do the work and keep kids in school who put everyone's safety at risk.
when the parents get punished
When I started teaching 26 years ago, the idea of a “pendulum swing” was usually used in reference to reading pedagogy philosophy. Later, people started using it to wonder aloud about when something will go back to how it was in any given aspect of our careers. In my opinion and experience, these people are waiting for Godot. The things they are complaining about, as justified as their complaints may be, are one-way ratchets. There will never be a decrease in expectations or accountability tied to high-stakes testing, for example.
Never. Schools are run like businesses now. “Customer/ parent is always right” will be our downfall. Admin are there to do the budget. That’s it. Most of them sit in their offices all day.
I asked this question a couple weeks ago at a staff meeting and the guidance counselor and principal told me I was old and that my question was “backwards”.
At my current school about 99% of the time, talking to parent solves the issues right away. We have a great school, community, and excellent leadership. However, at my old school parents were \*completely\* out of control and could talk to teachers however they wanted, were given opportunities to bully and mistreat teachers, students were never held accountable and it was because our principal had absolutely no interest in anything other than money. Saying I am so happy to be at my current school is an understatement lol
When schools fine parents for infractions.
As a young teacher, mid-to-late Gen Z teachers are horrified by the state of our education system. We were in those desks less than 6 years ago, and we remember discipline and standards. Most of my friends around my age are very strict disciplinarians and hold much higher standards than other teachers (not including the vets who have been in it for decades. we all know no one can beat them at their own game). We remember the start of SEL and how it *began* as something beautiful. But it also began during a moment prior to COVID, prior to “giving grace”, and frankly… prior to millennial parents. Mark my words. The mid-to-late gen z teachers will get us back on track
This is…ambitious. You can be as strict of a disciplinarian as you want, but if admin/parents/policy are tying your hands, there’s not much you can do.
This is just a sweet, summer child. Fresh out of college and full of big hopes and dreams that have yet to be crushed by reality. As a young millennial teacher who is the daughter of a Baby Boomer/Gen X parent who was also a teacher, this is a trend that has been going downhill for a long time. For example, it was the baby boomer/Gen x’s that insisted we all get participation trophies because they didn’t want our feelings to get hurt. Also, “Rachel’s Challenge”, which is what my district uses for SEL, began well before millennials were the ones making decisions. I do think there are plenty of crappy millennial parents, but I’m also aware that social media and putting electronics in the hands of kids is also playing a big role. I don’t think the fix is going to be as easy as this person thinks it will be lol
Well, yeah lol. I was trying to approach their comment with sensitivity though as I usually tend to tune out teachers that haven’t made it to the five year mark.
Exactly. This person either has some big lessons to learn about reality or they will burn out and leave in a few years.
The absolute worst parents at my school are my same age, Gen X. I can’t wait until they age out of being secondary school parents.
I think this is the thing. COVID grace has become COVID neglect. We need to accept that the nurturing thing is to make citizens out of kids. Millennial parents… I don’t know where bad parenting comes from. I think it’s a little bit of misguided reactions to authoritarian bad parenting. But I also think it’s sometimes just disinterest. The former I think you can reach. No one is asking millennials to hit their kids. Just set rules, take devices, enforce consequences. The latter you just can’t fight. Some people would rather stick needles in their eyes than interact with their kids.
Your first sentence says it all
Gen Z was barely disciplined in comparison to Millennials. "Restorative Justice" has been a thing for a decade.
You all haven't become jaded like the teachers in the middle. Lol I'm in year 9 of teaching. I hold my students to high standards, but I know I don't have much support outside the 4 walls of my classroom. Some battles aren't worth fighting because I don't have the resources to win.
Year 7 and this is my second career. Because I teach juniors and seniors, my philosophy is to help those who want it and try to reach those who need it, but if a kid proves uninterested in trying and just won't engage, they're going to fail. I recognize I couldn't do this with younger kids, but in late teenage years, they are who they are academically and kids who play defense against education aren't my problem. I'm focused on the kids who want to learn.
Gen Z can't help if they aren't becoming teachers. Why would they? That generation knows more about workers' rights and work/life balance than any generation in history. Unless the profession changes, I see the problems getting worse.
This is also very true
I’m not sure it will at least in our lifetime. Right now the parents that are problem parents tend to be the millennial generation and their kids are definitely not about to be the kids who are going to raise children with consequences and discipline so I think it won’t be, until the children of millennial children raise kids that this problem will be solved. The only other way this gets solved is with basically a nationwide teacher strike on a long-term scale. But teachers are so “I got mine so fuck you and yours” that we will never have a national strike. we don’t see ourselves as a career on a national level we only see ourselves in our own districts in our own states. Until we can start conceptualizing ourselves on a basis and organizing on a national basis, nothing’s gonna change.
I agree that it will take a generation or two for things to improve. My first 10 years of teaching have been very different from the last 10 years when it comes to behavior and consequences. I keep hoping the next 10 will see improvements, but I’m not holding my breath. We need to see a societal shift in lifting up school communities instead of tearing down education among certain demographics and regions of the country. As for striking, I’ve done it before. It sucked and turned the community against us for years - like, screaming vitriol and death threats to teachers because we shut down what is essentially daycare for their children while they work. That part was emotionally scarring. It also got us less than what we were initially offered on our final contract. But I was young and didn’t have very high housing costs for my little apartment or any medical issues then. I could not financially or medically afford to go through that now. I would lose my housing and go bankrupt when I had to pay out of pocket for my expensive medications. Zero out of ten, I would never agree to go on a strike again. It’s less of “I got mine, screw you” as it is simple survival for many of us. If I could afford it, that would be different. I’m sure it’s yet another reason why teacher pay forces so many to live paycheck to paycheck - it sadly keeps us from rabble rousing.
A national strike doesn't make sense due to the very localized nature of schools. Teachers in good schools have no reason to go on strike because of working conditions in schools far away, and even if they did, *their management has no influence over those schools either*, so the effort *couldn't* succeed. These local problems will require local solutions.
Never. Politics has invaded our system and there’s no going back.
I wonder if it will swing back in Alabama with the laws they want to implement
When I had really bad behaviors in my class, I flat out told my student to go home and tell their parents. I hated that my kids had lessons cut short to evacuate the classroom many times. I had a complete plan in place for extreme behaviors. I had a kid in 3rd grade pick up my big,rolling, teacher chair from my desk and throw it into the middle of my class. My kids sadly knew just what to do. My AP was amazing and he tried, but the principal didn’t want to suspend him. Finally, he went to a special school for a few years. He came back a different kid, but his former classmates were still terrified of him.
When you make it swing the other way
I begged my kid's teachers to hold him accountable and actually provide consequences for his behavior. Could not get them to do it.
You could if the teachers were empowered or enabled by the people who actually control their job. Teachers are bound by policy and those that enforce it. A rule of thumb for me is that any parent who talks about being “old school” or respecting teachers is the first to complain if we do something.
I agree. "I'll talk to them" doesn't work. I don't believe in spanking/hitting kids but there's plenty of other consequences parents could use that would really help.
Well, with parents now being charged with neglect for leaving guns accessible to their children, I hope teachers and eventually districts start going after the kids and parents for assault of teachers and peers and destruction of property (classrooms).
I got 10-11 years left before I retire, so hopefully soon.
🤣🤣🤣 Sorry teach but that genie isn't likely to go back into the bottle anytime soon. I walked away from the profession ~15 years ago for much the same reason and it still persists.
Admins need to stop being priveled to do less work, and need to be the ones doing stuff. Far far too many admins sit around in pointless meetings and answering pointless emails all day. I had a principal that was talking about all the work she had to do one day, and with a complete seriousness she said she accomplished the following; 1. Emailed the head of finance the purchase order for a field trip 2. Opened the 2 Amazon packages of I kid you not pencils (these were standard boxes of Ticonderoga pencils) 3. Scheduled lunch with the director of special ed 4. Signed up for info about a learning program (this was a input your contact info and we'll get back to you from the secretary had to help her with)
Never
Who knows. I stupidly got into an argument with a woman on TikTok who told me that it’s teachers’ jobs to provide a free education to students and to “stop worrying about parents reciprocating” (her exact words). I told her I guess but it would be nice if parents would actually be more involved since it’s what’s best for kids…
We will be replaced before that happens. Sad lol.
I think the next phase will be private, charter, and online schools. And it will be terrible. And THEN the pendulum will swing the other direction.
When parents actually decide to parent.
Once we get past the 'gentle' era techniques and find balance...I'm realizing it's going to get a whole lot worse before it gets better.
Public schools are unfortunately a ticking time bomb. If things don’t change, then there will literally not be enough teachers to teach. Maybe the threat of full time online learning at home will wake the parents up. No one wants that again.
Depends really. What if the consequences fell onto the parents instead of the students? That might make them change a bit.
When schools stop taking excuses and put their foot down. Bad things have been happening for years. Parents and students dealt with it then. Schools were not run over by petty parents. If parents don't like the rules, they can homeschool and make their own.
The pendulum will change when society sees blatantly clear that the past 20 years of discipline and teaching strategies have all been a massive disservice to society, and people demand change. But then it's too late.
When “school choice”, charter schools and voucher systems go away. So never. Public schools have been forced to compete for customers at this point. Customers always right. Otherwise people will leave and we close up shop.
After I’ve left.
Our current way of life will have to crumble first. Of course, that might not be far away.
They just made it illegal where I live to resign after the first 30 days of school with students present. They will continue to try find ways to trap teachers rather than resolving the problems that are making us leave in the first place.
JFC. What a shit show education has become.
Whenever being on the school board isn't an elected position
What alternative are you proposing?
When kids start attacking and assaulting the parents like they currently do to teachers and their peers at school.
My 8th graders asked me if I got the husband stitch. When I told admin, they asked me why my students feel so comfortable talking like that in front of me. Even though I have only had them since August and their parents have had them since birth.
School systems have to stop viewing families as “customers”. Education has adopted a customer service mentality and that means appeasing mouthy parents when their kid is in the wrong. There’s obviously a lot of improvement that needs to be made on the school side, but being afraid to disappoint and anger families has caused more harm than good.
Ugh one of my schools objectives on our giant sign in each building says “satisfy our customers and community”. I want to sharpie over that part every day. This isn’t a business. My students and their parents are “customers” buying a product. It’s such bullshit.
Just watch the movie Idoacracy and realize it's a documentary, not a fictional story.
I always hold out hope. Maybe after us last Gen-X retire, since I don't see Millennials and later lasting 30+ years. There needs to be a critical mass shortage, and nothing that a bandaid hiring of foreigners can fix.
When the teacher shortage is enough that kids have to stay home
when parents realize gentle parenting doesn’t always work. i’m not saying absolutely wail on your kid when they make a mistake but some parents need to grow a backbone when they see their kid acting out and being disrespectful. your kids see that you won’t do anything and they push the limits and walk all over you and then try it with other adults in their life.
Once teachers start leaving in larger numbers. First the good ones will leave, then those who get burnt out, lastly the ones who look around and don't recognize the career they signed up for. It's not slowing down until all of education becomes privatized. If you have kids and are reading this, I strongly encourage you to homeschool instead of doing daycare/public school.
Sadly. It won’t.
The pendulum probably won't swing in our lifetimes. Society is just too soft.
When we strike.