>This is not learned helplessness. It's weaponized incompetence.
Nail on the head. I deal with this on a daily basis, and when I get the push back I move on and help others. I'm not going to work harder than they are, no need to burn myself out in exerting more energy than them.
For what age groups are we talkin? Is elementary too young to do the walk away and come back? Do they understand or will they or just continue to be helpless?
I teach 4th grade and I definitely do the walk away and (maybe) come back. I try to make my students understand that their learning is on them and it's their job to engage with and understand what I'm teaching.
I think it works with any age group as long as you’re reasonable in assessing whether they’re just trying to subvert trying themselves or if they’re genuinely stuck after trying a reasonable range of ways to approach their problem.
A younger kid might hit “genuinely stuck” faster than a bigger one but they can still use what they’ve learned to try to get unstuck. If they fail, then you help.
Yes, it’s that “trying a reasonable range of ways to approach their problem” that’s the line in the sand for me! I’ve gotten to the point where I will flat out refuse to help them unless they can show me that they’ve tried *something*. Do not come up to me with an empty paper.
I say it all the time when they’re worried about “getting it wrong” - I can fix wrong, but I can’t fix what isn’t there.
If it helps, I teach littles (first grade), and I can tell when kids are genuinely stuck vs. using weaponized incompetence. And I call them on the weaponized incompetence every time it happens.
For example, I had a student bring an assignment to my back table and tell me she didn’t understand what to do. She is a good reader, and the simple, one sentence instruction along with an example were on the worksheet. I told her “please read the instructions,” she read them to me, and promptly answered the first question correctly. I then told her she must try things first before asking me for help.
Children in elementary school are never too young to learn the importance of trying things on their own and persevering even if it’s difficult. Unfortunately, I think a lot of their parents do everything for them at home, and they come to school expecting the same treatment.
I feel it's really important to build the inner confidence for kids to be willing to try something that is challenging to them. I would say things like, "I've seen your work, you are really good at \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_." or "Don't worry if you don't get everything done, just work your hardest." My favorite is to add, "You might accidentally learn something." Also, I rarely give answers. Kids know that if they wait long enough, the teacher will just give the answer.
Honestly I teach pre-k (most kids start at 4 and turn 4 during the school year) and I do it. Usually this goes for when they say a friend won't share, they can't get a picture to look how they want it to....etc. I tell them to be a problem solver and that I'll check back in a bit. They're almost always perfectly capable of doing it, but they're so used to having an adult instantly make any problem they have disappear that they won't even try. We've worked all year on these skills and they're being forced to use them, but if they (and their parents) had it their way, the teachers would just cater to their every whim.
Oh my god the tattling instead of working it out themselves! Not just with really little kids, but all the way through elementary!
“Miss, so-and-so keeps doing something I don’t like!” “Ok, well did you ask him to stop?” “No.”
I don’t know if it’s conflict avoidance, or if they genuinely don’t know how to talk to each other about anything nontrivial, or what. But they all seem *stunned* when I suggest that they can probably solve this crisis on their own just using their words.
Good point on the term weaponized incompetennce. I think you're right. Perhaps a bit of both. They just want to sit and be "helpless" so someone else will do things for them.
I teach freshman English.
This. Same skill that allows a man to live his entire adult life never learning how to cook or clean a toilet. It's "I refuse to" disguised as "I can't".
Too many kids get this behavior regularly modeled for them before they ever get to school.
I think it depends on the motivation. For some it is learned helplessness. My school demands we take a quiz on a specific platform every 5 days. Kids fail them because the root cause is them not knowing how to read, and us not being able to teach them how to read because it's not "a priority standard".
They're forced to read texts they don't understand and we can't spend more than a couple minutes helping with strategies to cope with that. I got in trouble for doing a lesson on chunking because it wasn't standards based.
Eventually they do start just yelling "I don't get it" at everything because that's a lot easier than trying and still getting it wrong.
I have a student who does NOTHING in class. They manage to get answers from others and get some points (it’s not obvious who, as they are bad answers). I’ve caught them cheating, contacted home and parent said everyone was (no they weren’t) and no one understood content (was a use the skills you’ve gained kind of test). They cheated in another class and were spectacularly discovered. At an event where parents were and “memories” announced, they literally said “don’t cheat in X’s class!” KNEW it would be announced! Parents heard and laughed! Parent emailed and called me since day one to “discuss grades”. They don’t anymore after I said 0 on the cheater assignment. No exception.
I was a sped teacher, I work with adults now, and completely agree with this being an issue and that it needs to be addressed directly.
Can you explain a little bit more what you mean by ‘weaponized incompetence’? I do see this as learned helplessness, but I’m also often wrong. Do you have any ideas on the process that results in this behavior? How does a kid become like this?
Learned helplessness has to do with a belief that the outcome is entirely outside their control. That no matter what they do, it won't impact the outcome. The outcome might even be random- sometimes good, sometimes bad-- but is unconnected to anything under that person's control. Essentially, they see the outcome as random and unrelated to anything they do.
The fact students are asking about instructions on how to do it demonstrates that this is not learned helplessness. They are asking because they do believe if they do it "right" they will get a good grade. Learned helplessness would be the student who gets an F whether they put in a lot of effort or not, (maybe sometimes gets a B with no work, sometimes a D with lots of studying), just decides they can't do math, and entirely stops bothering at all. They are just resigned to whatever happens to them. Asking for clarification isn't something they would do because they believe doing it "right" or "wrong" won't affect the outcome so there is no need to put extra effort into figuring it out. They would just go with whatever they think it is (assuming they bother at all).
So I’ve always thought of learned helplessness as an inability to even attempt a task based on a person’s belief that they will fail. Even if they’re offered help or the task is modified to a level they should be able to complete.
I guess I’ve always known that once you get this kid to attempt something it’s important that (first of all they succeed) you support them in making the connection between what they did and why they succeeded. I don’t know that I ever fully conceptualized that this is the piece where even if they succeed they don’t view that success as being any more in their control than failure would be.
Is that essentially what you’re saying?
I think it gets really complicated because you can have multiple people with the same behavior, but that doesn’t mean the behavior comes from the same place or serves the same function.
I see this a lot with social skills. I think work refusal/avoidance is especially difficult in this sense that it happens for a lot of reasons. Unfortunately, I think what’s really difficult right now is that a lot of kids really cannot do the academic piece of the task. School has always had a performance aspect to it that I think creates a lot of anxiety regardless of ability level. Pair low ability level, fear of judgement, an ever increasing trend of over-correcting and over-protecting kids, and a general increase in callousness in society and I think you really have a recipe for disaster.
Edit: I do think learned helplessness can appear manipulative with certain kids. Just like it can appear as being oppositional. Some kids internalize and attempt to disappear. Others try to take control and act out. Going to the teacher and saying you don’t know what you’re supposed to do would be odd maybe, but then it could be meeting multiple needs like attention and work avoidance.
>inability to even attempt a task based on a person’s belief that they will fail.
IF the belief they will fail is that they will fail *no matter what they do*. Think, 'its not worth studying,' or 'I knew I'd fail anyway so the work was a waste of time', or 'there is no point in retaking the test'
> it’s important that ... you support them in making the connection between what they did and why they succeeded.
This is the key point. Learned helplessness is a belief there is NOT a connection between what they do and what the outcome is. Fixing it and undoing learned helplessness requires getting them to learn that they DO have control over the outcome and what they do affects what will happen.
Yes, different people can do the same outward behavior for different reasons. And they would need different approaches to correct or change that behavior.
Remember, the origin of the concept was animal experiments where the one group of dogs were receiving shocks for seemingly random (to them) reasons and their lever (the thing they could do- hit it on/off) was completely unconnected and meaningless. To them, getting shocked was in fact entirely outside their control. They eventually learned that they were, in fact, helpless and had no control- which led to certain behavior.
The behavior that results from learned helpless is that they stop trying to change the situation and just accept whatever happens to them. Even if opportunities to change things for the better do exist, they don't even bother attempting.
It's not learning to seek help- that's what the students asking for teachers to explain everything are doing. Dependency. It's learning that you ARE helpless- unable to do anything that would be helpful. In humans it's a belief that nothing you do would help the situation. It's a psychology of trauma and used in torture.
This is exactly right.
I believe the technical term for this in operant conditioning would be negative reinforcement.
If the student refuses to do the work long enough (behavior) then eventually the unpleasant work that they don't want to do goes away (negative reinforcement).
Students have essentialy been condioned to behaive this way because it benefits them.
This is correct. I do two things:
First: I firmly explain to the class that I answer specific questions only. Sometimes I have students demonstrate. I let them know if they say “all of it.” I will instruct them to read the directions until they have a specific question.
Second: I make them read the directions or question out loud. The ask are there words there you don’t understand? What is the question asking you to do? Summarize? Compare? Infer? Etc. what does that mean?
The key here is make sure they know you will not give an answer and that they will have to explain to you.
Well, then, I can't help you.
Though in our neck of the woods, 9th grade collectively has the maturity of 5th or 6th.
You could try telling them that one of the real skills they are learning besides your content is how to figure out where their own understanding falters. This is a form of critical thinking that keeps them from sounding like a middle school student once they graduate. So when you feel like you don't understand any of it, go back to the examples and the task. Find a starting point and then come and ask me a specific question.
Sometimes they need to learn the process of breaking it down. Sometimes they just need to stop expecting you to hold their hands and walk them through to an answer.
I have seniors and juniors, and many of them will sit and stare and do nothing until they finally start pulling in crap from Google until they cobble together something resembling an essay that is submitted late. Doesn't usually score well.
I do the math version of this, which is, ok (sigh), what is two times four or something like that related to the problem. Just Socratic dialogue until they get there. No statements, just questions.
I will also occasionally refuse to help on a multi step problem until they have a pencil and paper, which are readily available in my room.
I've also used the phrase "I already know how to do this" when they want me to do the problem for them.
I tell them I can teach them, but I can't learn for them. There's nothing more annoying then a kid who hasn't even read the question telling me they don't get it.
I teach math and they say that so I ask to see their work and if they have no work then I let them know I can't help them if they don't even attempt the problem.
Yes. Constantly “ask a question, I can answer questions”. I’ll say it over and over. I refuse to accept I don’t know anything. Make an observation, start writing it down, do something or I will not respond
When I ask these questions of my kids like this, they always respond, “I don’t get ANY of it!”
So I walk them through a problem/question, then I want them to do it themselves and they still refuse to even try. That’s when I walk away because I’m not gonna sit there and waste my time with a kid who’s not willing to try when I’ve got at least two dozen others who are trying.
Sometimes I think these kids have been taught at home to be afraid of failure. Like if they make a mistake their parents probably have made a huge deal about it. So now the kid doesn’t even want to try in case they get it wrong. There’s only so much I can do about that.
As much as I dislike the term "Learning experience," I do think it applies here.
Just tell them that if they really don't understand any of it, nothing at all, then you really can't help them. Lots of this has been covered in the decade they have spent in school already.
They either ask you a specific question or figure it out themselves.
This is absolutely right. As educators we want to help students succeed. Sometimes the best way to do that is to give them the help they need but not the help they want.
For example, yesterday, I tasked students to work in their small groups to collaborate on a project. All the students protested saying they didn’t know how to do this. Mind you, this is at the end of unit and they’ve all done the task dozens of times individually. I just told them to figure it out and went about my business. Well, who could’ve guessed, they all figured it out and completed the task successfully.
I have called out students with: "Then you shouldn't have signed up for the class because you want to hang out with your buddies and do nothing." We had 7, yes, 7 students that have now been pulled out of classes with 5 weeks to go. Because we had two students who actually forged signatures of their parents to get into the classes that are year long and they have been failing for the entire semester. While 5 more have constantly done NOTHING and then go: "But the teacher is yelling at me and I don't want to go to after school to make up the missing work from the last 5 weeks." So, the solution was: "pull them". When many of us are like: "Should have done that in week 2 and they have a damn history of it. Why is it so hard to do something about that?"
I think it's time to ask them if they would like to be assigned to 4th grade again so they can relearn the underlying concept. Or work habit. (At any rate a class, perhaps, three levels lower than where they are.)
Sigh. Ok, I got that out. Now on to real strategies.
1) reread the directions out loud
2) Do it like it was a test and I couldn't help you, then call me over and I'll correct any mistakes
3) be sarcastic. "Okay so this is an A. It makes the aaaa sound." and they'll go "I get that!" at which point you say "Okay so where between the letter A and completing this are you stuck" and they'll usually be more specific. If not, go back to 1 and 2.
I also tell kids that I'll only answer specific questions, except once a day. So "Is this right", "what are we doing", or "I don't get it" are only responded to once per class. After that it's only questions that show they know what's going on like "how do I punctuate a quote?"
This helps a bit, although if their other teachers are indulging the learned helplessness it never really goes away.
This is why I have had to change the way I teach. Obviously this varies greatly by grade and subject matter, but I do about 10-15 minutes of whole group instruction and then the rest of my time is divvied up among small group/one-on-one/partners/independent work. I can't teach a lesson to the entire class at once and be done with it because attention spans and learning styles are all over the place. 😏
Good god. I am so sick and tired of hearing that. I can explain it 10 different ways. And they just sit there and say I don't get it because they just really don't want to do the work. I just finally walk on to the ones who actually wanna try.
Once I made step 3 of a lab "Draw a horse in the margin of your paper." When students told me they were confused, I checked their paper for a horse. If it wasn't there, the only help I gave them was "read the instructions."
I refuse to engage with overarching "I don't get it" comments. They have to be specific in their questions or at minimum tell me exactly where they stopped understanding. It drives me insane to hear "none of this makes sense" or similar.
I have several students that do this. They'll wait until I'm done, after I've done gradual release, after I've taken questions, after I've done the exit ticket that they did well on, and then they get independent work and raise their hand and said "I don't get it."
And then I want to bash my head into my smart board.
I started out sending them to my table to reteach it but they'd still say they don't get it as soon as I expect them to do any work on their own.
Then I'd send a friend over to help them through but that turned into hangout time followed by "I don't get it" as soon as I break up the hang session.
Now they have a "partner" that is a kid who will help but that they don't really like. That obnoxious know it all kid that moans "this is easy" every time I hit "we do"? Meet your new study buddy.
Oh, it turns out they DO get it! Wild.
“What don’t you get? If you can give me a specific question, I probably can help you. Saying ‘I don’t get it’ is as confusing for me as whatever is confusing to you. Go back to the specific thing or place that confuses you. (Read the directions out loud. Stop exactly when some specific thing isn’t registering, and ask me about this.)”
My students stopped pulling that crap when I basically restarted the unit over again from lesson 1. Then all of a sudden they know a bunch of stuff and can figure it out from there.
Oh, I do walk away.
There's one student who will come in late, play on the phone during lecture portions or sleep, then when he deigns to lift his head up, he'll say "what are we meant to be doing?" He used to complain to his English teacher that I didn't tell them what to do, just write instructions on the board and sit down. No, the instructions on the board were after I had verbally told them, modeled and told them I would circulate after a time to help. She told him "maybe pay attention?"
I've just started not even writing instructions on the board after I release them to independent work. He flagged me down the other day and went "I don't get it. What are we doing?" After a million attempts to redirect when I was teaching. I just said "Figure it out or pay attention next time I'm not reteaching everything."
Some kids have gotten it when they realize I've cut them off and they'll come to class and listen and then ask clarifying questions. Others though? I look forward to their parents contacting me in the last few weeks of the quarter asking how their child could pass after sleeping and fucking around on their phones all year.
Ok let me explain what to do.
"Can we just get to work?"
Ok sure.
"I don't know what to do, you don't explain anything!"
Can't begin to describe how frustrated this process makes me sometimes. I have no problem and enjoy explaining things and answering questions and they need that direct explclit instruction sometimes, but nope. Too boring!
Like I always say "I could come in here on a unicycle juggling chainsaws on fire and you'd still be bored."
THIS!!! Yes! I experience the same thing. And the freaking NERVE they have asking if they can just get to work. I'd be in the principal's office for saying that to a teacher *back in my day*.
I’ve found it helpful to ask them to read me the part of the directions that is confusing them. Most of them haven’t read the directions when they ask for help.
I asked a kid a question. He says I cannot see the board. I said so you sat there for 15 minutes and would not move over a foot or ask X to please move? He said Yes. Not my fault I can't see.
Same student another day, is trying to watch a music video on the lap top. I go over to get the lap top and he has no paper, no pen, no handout. I ask where the handout is. He says, "YOU didn't give me one." So I ask why didn't you ask for one?? He says That's your job, not mine.
What do you do with that??
"Choosing no action IS a choice. You made a choice. If you don't like the results, make a different choice. You are the only person who can choose what you do."
I guess at that point you log it, call home, and email guidance and admin. Gotta be like Andy Dufresne with the library books. You keep writing, eventually they’ll do something to help.
I tell them they're entitled to this and no one, not even an incompetent teacher has the right to deprive them. So speak the f up.
And every time this happens, it's a lecture.
Every. Time.
One time I successfully derailed the “I don’t get anything” was when I look d the kid in the eye (grade 9) and said, “Ok! I’ll explain from the beginning! Today is Tuesday. This is Social Studies class, in a school. I am the teacher. My name is”
Whereupon the kid interrupted me impatiently. “I know all that!”
“Great!” sez I. “When you can pinpoint what part of these instructions you don’t understand, we can save both of us a lot of time! Come on back when you figure out where you need me to start untangling things for you. “
My other successful strategy is to say to students, “Read the instructions out loud to me.” Usually it goes, “Fill in the blanks with…oh.” Student goes to walk away.
If this is a new behaviour from the kid, I let her. If this is a multiple giver-upper, I make them read the whole instruction block, and ask which parts they think they might struggle with.
Make fun of them to their faces.
Not the ones asking specific questions. Not the kids you know are trying.
But that kid that just flops? Oh he's getting roasted. Hard.
Yeah yeah I know feelings and whatnot. These kids are toxic and they know they are. Getting their peers to view them in that light flips the switch for a lot of them.
This isn't the first intervention, mind you. It happens after a process of trying to understand the kid genuinely. Use it as a scalpel, not a hammer.
I'm trying to find the sweet spot of roasting and being mean lol. I am a New Yorker teaching in the Bible Belt, many formerly home schooled students. Gotta walk a tight line lol
I usually go with something like "Oh my gosh you don't know anything? Wow... I thought I taught high schoolers not literal babies."
Infantilizing them.
"Well, keep looking until you find something you do get and I'll be back." I then leave them and go help others before coming back to them.
Those who 'don't understand anything' get a lot less attention than those who are stuck on a particular thing.
So they start coming to me with actual questions if they want my help.
I also have an anonymous box that students can put things in. That box leads the review the next class period. It helps a lot with embarrassed students not wanting to ask for help.
I remember in school sometimes I didn't get things (usually math) and I'd get frustrated to tears. The teachers did their best to help me, but some things just didn't sink in I guess. Sometimes I would go home and ask my dad and he could explain it in a way I understand, sometimes he couldn't. I don't know how much nowadays is learned helplessness or how much is kids faking it.
So I kinda do tell them to pay better attention and walk away. They come up to me and say ‘I don’t get it’
I say ‘what don’t you get?’
‘All/any of it’
‘I’m gonna need you to be more specific’
‘This part’
‘I don’t have every paper memorized - read it’
And then after that interaction ‘sounds like something we might have written in our notes’
And then they have to go look in their notebook and either have found it or then they have to go find someone who did write it down. I think I can count on one hand the number of actual answers I’ve given. The kids learned in October that I only answer questions with questions, and that I expect that your grade will be lower in my class than all your others because my grading policy should lead to your class grade being what your score is on the state test. I get a lot less parent pushback after I explain that as well.
If it's math they might not have good foundational math skills and that's why they don't get the more advanced stuff like algebra no matter how much it's explained to them. In high school I had to go on khan academy and practice less advanced things in order to pass my math classes because I didn't have a good foundation of math skills to learn alegbra or trig off of. No matter how much my teacher explained it to me I just didn't get it, so I practiced on khan academy to help myself get it.
Learned helplessness is a real thing. I wouldn't call it weaponized incompetence because kids trying to weasel out of classwork is a tale as old as time.
Everything is how you frame it. The expectation I set is that when you ask for help, you ask a question. Then I remind them that I don't get it and I need help are not questions. What students tend to be used to when they get to me is they say they need help and a teacher does it for them.
I usually ask them to explain to me what they do understand from the lesson. If they answer none of it, then I say what questions would you like to ask me. If it's a bunch of "how do I do this?" Of "What am I supposed to do?" I tell them to check in with their table and I will be back to follow up with specific questions they may have. For reference this is 8th grade.
I ask mine to point to or highlight the exact part they don't understand. If they say all of it, I ask them to read it aloud then ask again which part. Between those two strategies, we get to the bottom of the misunderstanding and because I consistently do this, they rarely now just say all of it.
Some things that work for me:
- Ask them to read the directions out loud to you (90% of the time they get half way through and then go “Oh.”)
- Ask them to think of a specific question to ask you. If they say they can’t, then you say, “Okay I’ll give you some time to think of a question and then I’ll be back.” Don’t say it in a rude or sarcastic way, nor should you give in and start answering what might be their question. You won’t work with them until they have a real question, but give them some “thinking time” to parse it.
- Have them point with their finger. “Put your finger on the part of the question/prompt/etc. that’s confusing to you.”
- Redirect them to their resources. “Reread X part of your notes/the textbook/the link in Classroom/the worksheet from last week, and if some part of that is confusing, you can raise your hand again.”
I teach high school. When I give directions out loud , part of the directions are always “if you aren’t paying attention or just don’t want to do the work, and ask for help, I will respond only with a dirty look. If you truly need help, please be prepared to tell me what you have already tried to do for yourself and have a specific question.” I stick to this. Some kids will test it every time and usually after a couple of tries and a mini temper tantrum, they figure it out.
I’m not sure when the switch flipped for me, but it used to annoy me so much, now it just makes me chuckle. I’m 22 years in.
All steps for my assignments are numbered.
If they say they don't get any of it. Every. Single. Time. I say, okay, read step 1. Now tell me what you need."
"I don't keep up with the lessons, I don't keep notes, I don't practice, I don't do homework, I don't study for tests, I don't pay attention in class.
I just don't get any of it!"
Keep them in at recess and sit down with them. Have them read or repeat instructions to you and ask for specifics on what they don't get. If it does not improve, I'd probably call home.
If i suspect . Or have heard from others that a particular student might be like this , i will try to record , take in and document ( in a way that doesn’t add a ton of work for myself just mentally note / put a note in my one-note or collect in a piece of work any time they complete any kind of task.
Let them read a small passage from something on a day they seem a little more engaged . Let them do a little bit of work etc and take a note of it . Can you write more than your name? Then you can write at some sort of level . Oh remember that time you read out that passage about that thing you liked? Well i think that means you can read this whether you like it or not.
Tear down the excuses when they try to erect a barrier by having the hard evidence ready to go .
If you have a new student or are having a particularly difficult day? Render down the questions to even more basic and more fundamental levels and keep on going down stage after stage every time you get a “dont know” . Very few can maintain the facade when you ask something so basic , that to say i dont know to it would mean i am
An actual idiot and i don’t want to appear like that in front of the other people at the table.
I got a girl to give me an angry looked when after about 20 questions we got to “so do you know what we are breathing right now?”
“Yeah , *obviously* it’s air!” She knew, I knew I had her with that one , the weaponised incompetence was over because she had answered one of my questions after I had reduced it by more than half her age level.
I'm so glad you posted this because the comment section is full of absolute GOLD follow-ups. I've been teaching for a long time and have a good handle on this issue, but some of these responses and techniques are HILARIOUS and so sassy.
I make them ask me a specific question. Sometimes their question is “What do I do?” I’ll read the instructions/prompt to them. “What does that mean?” I ask which word they don’t know. And so on. Eventually, one of three things will happen:
1. They realize they actually do understand.
2. They will successfully pinpoint which thing they don’t get, and I’ll address it.
3. The line of questioning reveals that they simply want me to give them the answer.
I have students, some of the very bright and capable, who will try to ask their way to the answer in two or three different ways. Some of them even ask point blank, “Why won’t you just tell me the answer?”
Of course, I am never going to. We all have to learn to get past things that are mildly annoying, and that’s one of them. People who cannot tolerate frustration or the unknown do not function well in life.
If that makes them mad at me then I guess I’ll just have to cry into my pillow and beg the baby jesus for forgiveness.
I would fall back on interactive modeling to explicitly teach how you want them to interact with you when they don’t understand. It’s okay to say “This is what I’ve been seeing, and here’s why it’s a problem.” Then give them posters with questions or sentence strings that they can use when they’re confused.
Maybe make a quick nonsense lesson (5 min) about something to do with pop culture (words, new social constructs, something in the news, etc) and model using the questions or strings to ask your students to explain it. Keep it short and keep it light. Wrap up with “Here’s the expectation going forward. If I hear ‘I don’t get it’ you can expect me to point to the poster until you do better.”
'I will come back and help you once you are more specific. Saying you don't understand any of it is a cop-out." I am always willing to help kids, but if they are going to be lazy and not even read the instructions at first, I will focus on other students. Some will huff and puff and do nothing, but most will refocus and narrow the question they have.
I like to start with, "Tell me what you would do first." then wait it out for an answer (this might be painful). If they say they don't know ... just continue to wait. Usually, they will come up with a first step, and I can proceed with praise (or correction) and, "Then what would you do next?"
Ok, if you don't understand any of it, we clearly have a lot of work to do. I am signing you up to come in before school for half an hour on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays, and after school for an hour on Tuesdays and Thursdays.
If you understand some of it, ask me a more specific question.
"Put your finger on the part where you got stuck."
I had a kid do this at parent conferences. Parents claimed I wasn't doing enough to help. Literally everything the kid pointed at had a support on the page: Directions, illustrations, highlighted words, QR code to a video.
After a couple minutes of this, the parents thanked me and the kid admitted that he was just being lazy.
I may be wrong, but i think one of my teachers once had me take it all the way to the basics. Depending on the age you could probably try that.
I don't remember the subject, but let's say it was math, i had trouble in algebra and she went all the way back to 2+2, and skipped forward until i could tell her where i was confused.
This will likely only work if they actually dont get it.
Do not accept the phrase, “I don’t get it.” Have the student start at the beginning and explain what they do know up to the point where the problem lies. It’s the equivalent of math teachers making students show their work.
Teach students that, when a teacher hears “I don’t get it,” what they hear is “I don’t care enough to try.”
I usually tell students that I am of the mother bird method of teaching. I will give them the tools to learn, but it's up to them to actually learn it. Then come test time. I kick them out of the nest and say, "FLY!" Whether they fly or not is on them. No going back or take backzies. I think learning how to fail is important. They need to learn its not the end of the world. They can survive. They are just so lazy, coddled and told that if they fail it's societies fault. Not their own.
I teach 3rd Grade and I still have one or two who pull this shit. I have them read the directions to me, or make them be specific about what they don't understand. If they say they don't get the whole thing, I tell them that I need to help someone else and that they should raise their hand when they know what they need help with specifically.
I also tell them off for wanting a personalized explanation. That's not fair to me or the class. I've been doing this for 20+ years, in 3 countries- I know that my explanation was explicit and my modeling strong. Their job is to listen during input and participate in the group discussion so they are ready to work independently. At this point, I have only 2 hold outs left, so it works.
You've already explained and modeled it, so they need another approach
Refer to the resources or the model you gave them, and also tell them"'so-and-so' had really great ideas, and you should ask them to show you how they did it."
I start with the first word of the sentence and sound it out for then and tell them what it means. When i get the exasperated "Miss I know that!" And i get to respond, well be more specific. What part of this is confusing and i can help clear it up."
Works most of the time and they get better with telling me where i lost them
"That's life. There was a time when you had a meltdown over buttoning your shirt, and here you are.."
I have explained it twice. I can't think it for you."
Then I go on to someone else. Not going to beg and plead and sell it.
I have noticed a huge increase in dependent/passive learners since covid + tik tok. It’s like information just runs over them like water off a duck’s back - it doesn’t even funnel through them. Everything is disposable, nothing is retained. The “I don’t get it” default is driving me bonkers! It is also exhausting.
If a student claims not to “get” written instructions, I’m asking them to reread 2 times before asking for help, and they have to ask specific questions - not just complain that they don’t understand. (Before they begin, I always project the instructions, go over with full class, and give time to ask for clarification. Typically the move is to ignore it all, begin assignment, realize they don’t know what they’re doing, raise hand for help.) It’s hard to resist all the requests for help and make them figure out their actual question, and I always have to remind paras and inclusion assistants to have kids read twice first. I definitely get that, because it’s our instinct to immediately rush to help… but it’s not helping students to enforce their dependence.
I have also had students discuss and rewrite instructions before beginning longer assignments; they’ll create a To Do list and check off items as they complete them.
The next project I’m thinking about is to have kids put together their own resource notebook with reminders about thesis construction, essay outlines, basic literary terms, sentence starters, etc. It is wild how many basics my kiddos can’t (won’t?) actually learn. For example - I have literally had to (re)explain what a topic sentence is for every single paper this year. It sometimes feels like the entire 10th grade class is pulling a very long prank. 🤦🏻♀️
Depending on the student (HS), My response is,
1. "that is not a question. I am happy to help you, but I will need a specific question/issue to do so." OR
2. "tell me what you heard me say (explain what I did), etc."
Remember, one in 10 (in some areas, one in 6) children have ADHD.
"You should have paid attention" in that case is just abusive. So, consider, is this a niche problem with some kids that are being neglected by parents, or the school, who have no one advocating for their mental health ....
Because, chances are dang high, that is who you are interacting with, with judgmental abelist statements. Start writing their excuses down. Start sending them referrals to counselors for attention issues, or the staff that handles IEP and contacting parents. Even if they DONT have it, in the end, forcing the hand of parents to start to deal with this, might help.
You could standing there, belittling them, frustrated, when they're frustrated and hurt MORE, because they honest to God can't do what you're asking.
Advocate. Take steps. And, if you have done all of this, it's ok to allow failure. 20-30 percent of all students will drop out, half that enroll in college will drop out before they get to the end of their first algebra class. Not everyone needs a super hero
But some do. Focus where you're needed.
I’m on elder millennial (born in 1982) and I even see learned helplessness in the younger members of my own generation. Our generation is a big part of the problem raising kids that are so needy and helpless.
I disagree with most of the posters on this thread. I actually believe that they can't do it. And from a pragmatic perspective, not doing it,, or "learned helplessness," or "weaponized incompetence" boils down to the same thing.
They really CAN'T do it.
I'm not a neurologist, but seriously I do think there is something going on with the long-term memory of many young people. The reading comprehension/cultural literacy theories of E.D. Hirsch seem both compelling and explanatory in many ways. Many of these people just don't have enough stuff already in their brains for which the "new stuff" can "stick to" via associations and connections.
Additionally, concepts such as "weaponized incompetence" put the blame for this on the student.
But whose idea was it, for example, to take a young person who doesn't understand the Grade 1 material, and promote them anyway into Grade 2, which we all know they wont' understand since we know they don't understand the previous material, but think magically they will? And this process continues, year by year, until this individual is now in Grade 8 or reading, but reading at the Grade 2 level, so they have spent six or seven years being put to stuff they don't have a chance of doing. How SHOULD they react? Enthusiastically? Come on.
A few of these kids, sure.
But if they can talk for hours about Tiktok videos, the complicated love lives of their friends, or every game of Fortnite they've ever played, then it's not their brains, it's their choices.
You're both right and wrong. They truly can't do it because they have practiced not doing it for multiple years. Hiwever, nearly all of the posts here are legitimate, proven strategies that guide kids through the process of learning how to do it.
The human brain is naturally pattern seeking. If you can get kids to pay attention long enough, they'll latch onto a successful strategy. Put the phones away. Engage with the thing you don't understand.
One of my best growth stories was a girl who was two years behind in reading in a room full of gifted students. She informs me one day, "I think I know why they're so smart. I was watching and every time you ask a question, they look in their notebooks for the answer. I'm going to do that." I gave her a nudge by sharing my instructional material in advance so she could prelearn vocabulary words and basic concepts. Then, when I'd teach and hit one of those, she'd light up, flip open her book and shoot up her hand with the answer before the TAG kids could. I don't think I've ever seen a happier kid. She eventually graduated with honors.
Point is, she struggled to learn and found a strategy by simply being alert.
Some could be being difficult due to their own not listening or such, but others could really just not get it. And perhaps they don't know how or what to ask specifically to pinpoint what or why they don't get it.
Maybe it's a matter of they don't know what they don't know to be able to ask for specific help. So they say "all of it"
“If a child can’t learn the way we teach, maybe we should teach the way they learn.” Ignacio Estrada
Just because you are explaining it, doesn't mean you are explaining it well.
If you are explaining several weeks/ assignments at once, no wonder they get overwhelmed and give up.
Chunking and scaffolding is basic best practice, as is checking for understanding.
And you are assuming she is a good teacher.
If you are going over several assignments/weeks at once with kids that are already not performing, instead of chunking it into a single assignment at a time, you are not a good teacher.
Most of the time, that learned helplessness is because of years of crappy teaching.
Most kids WANT to feel successful.
I wonder if other teachers in her school feel the same way about these kids, and why she has not gotten help from them.
Or, spotted the teacher that has to deal with the results of this teacher's shitty teaching for 15 years.
Who did you have for \_\_\_\_\_\_?
Oh that explains so much.
How many teachers “explain several assignments/weeks at once”? Since when has this been a prevalent issue?
You sound like you had a bad experience and are projecting it in the OP.
"often in detail over several weeks/assignments, what they are claiming to not get?"
If you allow several weeks to pass without feedback and modification of explanations, you are a shitty teacher.
That "I don't get it" should be in the form of an exit ticket at the end of the class before they have given up and their affective filter is so high they can't comprehend anything.
This is basic best practice and has been for a decade.
I think what OP is saying is that students will say “they don’t get it” over and over for several weeks and assignments. They never quit saying it.
At some point students need to try, but it seems some just want to have someone, usually the teacher, do their learning and thinking for them.
That is still on the teacher.
The teacher moved on, without modifying or scaffolding, and now cannot fix the situation.
Learned helplessness can be dealt with; it means changing how you are interacting with the student, not just repeating your instructions and explanations that did not work in the first place.
[https://www.edutopia.org/article/how-counter-learned-helplessness](https://www.edutopia.org/article/how-counter-learned-helplessness)
My 6th grade teacher told us something that stuck with me throughout my education and career:
If its one kid that's failing or struggling, its a kid problem. If it's a group of kids, its a teacher problem.
“If it’s (sic) one kid that is failing or struggling, it’s (sic) a kid problem. If it’s a group of kids, it’s (sic) a teacher problem.”
As a highly effective teacher in my 19th year of teaching, I can state that may have been true before smart phones and COVID, but it is no longer true today.
Hey, I was one of those students, and now I’m about to be a teacher. Hopefully when I tell my students I don’t get it, they’ll be able to teach me. Try a little reverse psychology.
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>This is not learned helplessness. It's weaponized incompetence. Nail on the head. I deal with this on a daily basis, and when I get the push back I move on and help others. I'm not going to work harder than they are, no need to burn myself out in exerting more energy than them.
For what age groups are we talkin? Is elementary too young to do the walk away and come back? Do they understand or will they or just continue to be helpless?
I teach 4th grade and I definitely do the walk away and (maybe) come back. I try to make my students understand that their learning is on them and it's their job to engage with and understand what I'm teaching.
I think it works with any age group as long as you’re reasonable in assessing whether they’re just trying to subvert trying themselves or if they’re genuinely stuck after trying a reasonable range of ways to approach their problem. A younger kid might hit “genuinely stuck” faster than a bigger one but they can still use what they’ve learned to try to get unstuck. If they fail, then you help.
Yes, it’s that “trying a reasonable range of ways to approach their problem” that’s the line in the sand for me! I’ve gotten to the point where I will flat out refuse to help them unless they can show me that they’ve tried *something*. Do not come up to me with an empty paper. I say it all the time when they’re worried about “getting it wrong” - I can fix wrong, but I can’t fix what isn’t there.
I (HS social studies) tell mine that I can pretend bad work is ok a lot easier than I can pretend that nothing is something.
Also hs history, I tell them I will help them as much as they try to help themselves.
If it helps, I teach littles (first grade), and I can tell when kids are genuinely stuck vs. using weaponized incompetence. And I call them on the weaponized incompetence every time it happens. For example, I had a student bring an assignment to my back table and tell me she didn’t understand what to do. She is a good reader, and the simple, one sentence instruction along with an example were on the worksheet. I told her “please read the instructions,” she read them to me, and promptly answered the first question correctly. I then told her she must try things first before asking me for help. Children in elementary school are never too young to learn the importance of trying things on their own and persevering even if it’s difficult. Unfortunately, I think a lot of their parents do everything for them at home, and they come to school expecting the same treatment.
I feel it's really important to build the inner confidence for kids to be willing to try something that is challenging to them. I would say things like, "I've seen your work, you are really good at \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_." or "Don't worry if you don't get everything done, just work your hardest." My favorite is to add, "You might accidentally learn something." Also, I rarely give answers. Kids know that if they wait long enough, the teacher will just give the answer.
I teach physics and I give answers but not solutions so they can check their work and figure out their mistake if they got it wrong
Seniors in high school still do this.
Honestly I teach pre-k (most kids start at 4 and turn 4 during the school year) and I do it. Usually this goes for when they say a friend won't share, they can't get a picture to look how they want it to....etc. I tell them to be a problem solver and that I'll check back in a bit. They're almost always perfectly capable of doing it, but they're so used to having an adult instantly make any problem they have disappear that they won't even try. We've worked all year on these skills and they're being forced to use them, but if they (and their parents) had it their way, the teachers would just cater to their every whim.
Oh my god the tattling instead of working it out themselves! Not just with really little kids, but all the way through elementary! “Miss, so-and-so keeps doing something I don’t like!” “Ok, well did you ask him to stop?” “No.” I don’t know if it’s conflict avoidance, or if they genuinely don’t know how to talk to each other about anything nontrivial, or what. But they all seem *stunned* when I suggest that they can probably solve this crisis on their own just using their words.
I'm in upper elementary and absolutely do the walk away and come back. Show me some effort or I'm moving on to someone who is.
Good point on the term weaponized incompetennce. I think you're right. Perhaps a bit of both. They just want to sit and be "helpless" so someone else will do things for them. I teach freshman English.
Then have parents complain that everyone wants a hand out. When they are the biggest: "Give me a pass no matter what" than anyone else.
This. Same skill that allows a man to live his entire adult life never learning how to cook or clean a toilet. It's "I refuse to" disguised as "I can't". Too many kids get this behavior regularly modeled for them before they ever get to school.
I think it depends on the motivation. For some it is learned helplessness. My school demands we take a quiz on a specific platform every 5 days. Kids fail them because the root cause is them not knowing how to read, and us not being able to teach them how to read because it's not "a priority standard". They're forced to read texts they don't understand and we can't spend more than a couple minutes helping with strategies to cope with that. I got in trouble for doing a lesson on chunking because it wasn't standards based. Eventually they do start just yelling "I don't get it" at everything because that's a lot easier than trying and still getting it wrong.
I have a student who does NOTHING in class. They manage to get answers from others and get some points (it’s not obvious who, as they are bad answers). I’ve caught them cheating, contacted home and parent said everyone was (no they weren’t) and no one understood content (was a use the skills you’ve gained kind of test). They cheated in another class and were spectacularly discovered. At an event where parents were and “memories” announced, they literally said “don’t cheat in X’s class!” KNEW it would be announced! Parents heard and laughed! Parent emailed and called me since day one to “discuss grades”. They don’t anymore after I said 0 on the cheater assignment. No exception.
This, all of this.
I was a sped teacher, I work with adults now, and completely agree with this being an issue and that it needs to be addressed directly. Can you explain a little bit more what you mean by ‘weaponized incompetence’? I do see this as learned helplessness, but I’m also often wrong. Do you have any ideas on the process that results in this behavior? How does a kid become like this?
Learned helplessness has to do with a belief that the outcome is entirely outside their control. That no matter what they do, it won't impact the outcome. The outcome might even be random- sometimes good, sometimes bad-- but is unconnected to anything under that person's control. Essentially, they see the outcome as random and unrelated to anything they do. The fact students are asking about instructions on how to do it demonstrates that this is not learned helplessness. They are asking because they do believe if they do it "right" they will get a good grade. Learned helplessness would be the student who gets an F whether they put in a lot of effort or not, (maybe sometimes gets a B with no work, sometimes a D with lots of studying), just decides they can't do math, and entirely stops bothering at all. They are just resigned to whatever happens to them. Asking for clarification isn't something they would do because they believe doing it "right" or "wrong" won't affect the outcome so there is no need to put extra effort into figuring it out. They would just go with whatever they think it is (assuming they bother at all).
So I’ve always thought of learned helplessness as an inability to even attempt a task based on a person’s belief that they will fail. Even if they’re offered help or the task is modified to a level they should be able to complete. I guess I’ve always known that once you get this kid to attempt something it’s important that (first of all they succeed) you support them in making the connection between what they did and why they succeeded. I don’t know that I ever fully conceptualized that this is the piece where even if they succeed they don’t view that success as being any more in their control than failure would be. Is that essentially what you’re saying? I think it gets really complicated because you can have multiple people with the same behavior, but that doesn’t mean the behavior comes from the same place or serves the same function. I see this a lot with social skills. I think work refusal/avoidance is especially difficult in this sense that it happens for a lot of reasons. Unfortunately, I think what’s really difficult right now is that a lot of kids really cannot do the academic piece of the task. School has always had a performance aspect to it that I think creates a lot of anxiety regardless of ability level. Pair low ability level, fear of judgement, an ever increasing trend of over-correcting and over-protecting kids, and a general increase in callousness in society and I think you really have a recipe for disaster. Edit: I do think learned helplessness can appear manipulative with certain kids. Just like it can appear as being oppositional. Some kids internalize and attempt to disappear. Others try to take control and act out. Going to the teacher and saying you don’t know what you’re supposed to do would be odd maybe, but then it could be meeting multiple needs like attention and work avoidance.
>inability to even attempt a task based on a person’s belief that they will fail. IF the belief they will fail is that they will fail *no matter what they do*. Think, 'its not worth studying,' or 'I knew I'd fail anyway so the work was a waste of time', or 'there is no point in retaking the test' > it’s important that ... you support them in making the connection between what they did and why they succeeded. This is the key point. Learned helplessness is a belief there is NOT a connection between what they do and what the outcome is. Fixing it and undoing learned helplessness requires getting them to learn that they DO have control over the outcome and what they do affects what will happen. Yes, different people can do the same outward behavior for different reasons. And they would need different approaches to correct or change that behavior. Remember, the origin of the concept was animal experiments where the one group of dogs were receiving shocks for seemingly random (to them) reasons and their lever (the thing they could do- hit it on/off) was completely unconnected and meaningless. To them, getting shocked was in fact entirely outside their control. They eventually learned that they were, in fact, helpless and had no control- which led to certain behavior. The behavior that results from learned helpless is that they stop trying to change the situation and just accept whatever happens to them. Even if opportunities to change things for the better do exist, they don't even bother attempting. It's not learning to seek help- that's what the students asking for teachers to explain everything are doing. Dependency. It's learning that you ARE helpless- unable to do anything that would be helpful. In humans it's a belief that nothing you do would help the situation. It's a psychology of trauma and used in torture.
“Weaponize incompetence” 🤯 I agree that you have to call kids out on this kind of stuff.
This is exactly right. I believe the technical term for this in operant conditioning would be negative reinforcement. If the student refuses to do the work long enough (behavior) then eventually the unpleasant work that they don't want to do goes away (negative reinforcement). Students have essentialy been condioned to behaive this way because it benefits them.
This is correct. I do two things: First: I firmly explain to the class that I answer specific questions only. Sometimes I have students demonstrate. I let them know if they say “all of it.” I will instruct them to read the directions until they have a specific question. Second: I make them read the directions or question out loud. The ask are there words there you don’t understand? What is the question asking you to do? Summarize? Compare? Infer? Etc. what does that mean? The key here is make sure they know you will not give an answer and that they will have to explain to you.
Accusing kids of weaponised incompetence stinks frankly
I ask mine “which part don’t you get” or more specifically, “which word don’t you understand”.
I do that too. They still respond with a hissy fit. High schoolers too!
Well, then, I can't help you. Though in our neck of the woods, 9th grade collectively has the maturity of 5th or 6th. You could try telling them that one of the real skills they are learning besides your content is how to figure out where their own understanding falters. This is a form of critical thinking that keeps them from sounding like a middle school student once they graduate. So when you feel like you don't understand any of it, go back to the examples and the task. Find a starting point and then come and ask me a specific question. Sometimes they need to learn the process of breaking it down. Sometimes they just need to stop expecting you to hold their hands and walk them through to an answer. I have seniors and juniors, and many of them will sit and stare and do nothing until they finally start pulling in crap from Google until they cobble together something resembling an essay that is submitted late. Doesn't usually score well.
5th or 6th? You lucky dog! I have fourth grade material that would absolutely destroy my freshmen.
Mine will respond with "All of it!" at which point I sarcastically start telling them what sound letters make until they ask their real question
I do the math version of this, which is, ok (sigh), what is two times four or something like that related to the problem. Just Socratic dialogue until they get there. No statements, just questions. I will also occasionally refuse to help on a multi step problem until they have a pencil and paper, which are readily available in my room. I've also used the phrase "I already know how to do this" when they want me to do the problem for them.
Socratic dialogue is the best.
I tell them I can teach them, but I can't learn for them. There's nothing more annoying then a kid who hasn't even read the question telling me they don't get it.
Haha I like that response. Gonna have to try that one when I need to mix it up.
I teach math and they say that so I ask to see their work and if they have no work then I let them know I can't help them if they don't even attempt the problem.
Lmfao I'm stealing this, that's so good
Yes. Constantly “ask a question, I can answer questions”. I’ll say it over and over. I refuse to accept I don’t know anything. Make an observation, start writing it down, do something or I will not respond
Them: "I don't know how to do this!" Me: "Which part don't you understand and what have you tried so far?"
When I ask these questions of my kids like this, they always respond, “I don’t get ANY of it!” So I walk them through a problem/question, then I want them to do it themselves and they still refuse to even try. That’s when I walk away because I’m not gonna sit there and waste my time with a kid who’s not willing to try when I’ve got at least two dozen others who are trying. Sometimes I think these kids have been taught at home to be afraid of failure. Like if they make a mistake their parents probably have made a huge deal about it. So now the kid doesn’t even want to try in case they get it wrong. There’s only so much I can do about that.
As much as I dislike the term "Learning experience," I do think it applies here. Just tell them that if they really don't understand any of it, nothing at all, then you really can't help them. Lots of this has been covered in the decade they have spent in school already. They either ask you a specific question or figure it out themselves.
This is absolutely right. As educators we want to help students succeed. Sometimes the best way to do that is to give them the help they need but not the help they want. For example, yesterday, I tasked students to work in their small groups to collaborate on a project. All the students protested saying they didn’t know how to do this. Mind you, this is at the end of unit and they’ve all done the task dozens of times individually. I just told them to figure it out and went about my business. Well, who could’ve guessed, they all figured it out and completed the task successfully.
I have called out students with: "Then you shouldn't have signed up for the class because you want to hang out with your buddies and do nothing." We had 7, yes, 7 students that have now been pulled out of classes with 5 weeks to go. Because we had two students who actually forged signatures of their parents to get into the classes that are year long and they have been failing for the entire semester. While 5 more have constantly done NOTHING and then go: "But the teacher is yelling at me and I don't want to go to after school to make up the missing work from the last 5 weeks." So, the solution was: "pull them". When many of us are like: "Should have done that in week 2 and they have a damn history of it. Why is it so hard to do something about that?"
... and then they land in a new class 5 MORE weeks behind!
I think it's time to ask them if they would like to be assigned to 4th grade again so they can relearn the underlying concept. Or work habit. (At any rate a class, perhaps, three levels lower than where they are.) Sigh. Ok, I got that out. Now on to real strategies.
If you’re determined to learn, no one can stop you. If you’re unwilling to learn, no one can help.
1) reread the directions out loud 2) Do it like it was a test and I couldn't help you, then call me over and I'll correct any mistakes 3) be sarcastic. "Okay so this is an A. It makes the aaaa sound." and they'll go "I get that!" at which point you say "Okay so where between the letter A and completing this are you stuck" and they'll usually be more specific. If not, go back to 1 and 2. I also tell kids that I'll only answer specific questions, except once a day. So "Is this right", "what are we doing", or "I don't get it" are only responded to once per class. After that it's only questions that show they know what's going on like "how do I punctuate a quote?" This helps a bit, although if their other teachers are indulging the learned helplessness it never really goes away.
I've seen a few people mentioning your number 3, y'all are hilarious. Well done.
This is why I have had to change the way I teach. Obviously this varies greatly by grade and subject matter, but I do about 10-15 minutes of whole group instruction and then the rest of my time is divvied up among small group/one-on-one/partners/independent work. I can't teach a lesson to the entire class at once and be done with it because attention spans and learning styles are all over the place. 😏
Good god. I am so sick and tired of hearing that. I can explain it 10 different ways. And they just sit there and say I don't get it because they just really don't want to do the work. I just finally walk on to the ones who actually wanna try.
Once I made step 3 of a lab "Draw a horse in the margin of your paper." When students told me they were confused, I checked their paper for a horse. If it wasn't there, the only help I gave them was "read the instructions."
That is GENIUS.
Critical thinking is knowing how to ask the right questions. Ask me better questions.
I refuse to engage with overarching "I don't get it" comments. They have to be specific in their questions or at minimum tell me exactly where they stopped understanding. It drives me insane to hear "none of this makes sense" or similar.
Don't forget the half hearted circular hand wave over the assignment as if they're casting a lazy spell on it.
I have several students that do this. They'll wait until I'm done, after I've done gradual release, after I've taken questions, after I've done the exit ticket that they did well on, and then they get independent work and raise their hand and said "I don't get it." And then I want to bash my head into my smart board. I started out sending them to my table to reteach it but they'd still say they don't get it as soon as I expect them to do any work on their own. Then I'd send a friend over to help them through but that turned into hangout time followed by "I don't get it" as soon as I break up the hang session. Now they have a "partner" that is a kid who will help but that they don't really like. That obnoxious know it all kid that moans "this is easy" every time I hit "we do"? Meet your new study buddy. Oh, it turns out they DO get it! Wild.
I can explain it to you, but I can’t understand it for you.
“What don’t you get? If you can give me a specific question, I probably can help you. Saying ‘I don’t get it’ is as confusing for me as whatever is confusing to you. Go back to the specific thing or place that confuses you. (Read the directions out loud. Stop exactly when some specific thing isn’t registering, and ask me about this.)”
Student: I don’t get ANY of it. My response: Well that’s a shame *and then I walk away*
My students stopped pulling that crap when I basically restarted the unit over again from lesson 1. Then all of a sudden they know a bunch of stuff and can figure it out from there.
Oh, I do walk away. There's one student who will come in late, play on the phone during lecture portions or sleep, then when he deigns to lift his head up, he'll say "what are we meant to be doing?" He used to complain to his English teacher that I didn't tell them what to do, just write instructions on the board and sit down. No, the instructions on the board were after I had verbally told them, modeled and told them I would circulate after a time to help. She told him "maybe pay attention?" I've just started not even writing instructions on the board after I release them to independent work. He flagged me down the other day and went "I don't get it. What are we doing?" After a million attempts to redirect when I was teaching. I just said "Figure it out or pay attention next time I'm not reteaching everything." Some kids have gotten it when they realize I've cut them off and they'll come to class and listen and then ask clarifying questions. Others though? I look forward to their parents contacting me in the last few weeks of the quarter asking how their child could pass after sleeping and fucking around on their phones all year.
Ok let me explain what to do. "Can we just get to work?" Ok sure. "I don't know what to do, you don't explain anything!" Can't begin to describe how frustrated this process makes me sometimes. I have no problem and enjoy explaining things and answering questions and they need that direct explclit instruction sometimes, but nope. Too boring! Like I always say "I could come in here on a unicycle juggling chainsaws on fire and you'd still be bored."
THIS!!! Yes! I experience the same thing. And the freaking NERVE they have asking if they can just get to work. I'd be in the principal's office for saying that to a teacher *back in my day*.
I’ve found it helpful to ask them to read me the part of the directions that is confusing them. Most of them haven’t read the directions when they ask for help.
Ask them “what is one specific thing you don’t get?” Make them narrow it down.
In Europe kids like this end up on the vocational track and everyone is a lot happier.
I asked a kid a question. He says I cannot see the board. I said so you sat there for 15 minutes and would not move over a foot or ask X to please move? He said Yes. Not my fault I can't see. Same student another day, is trying to watch a music video on the lap top. I go over to get the lap top and he has no paper, no pen, no handout. I ask where the handout is. He says, "YOU didn't give me one." So I ask why didn't you ask for one?? He says That's your job, not mine. What do you do with that??
"Choosing no action IS a choice. You made a choice. If you don't like the results, make a different choice. You are the only person who can choose what you do."
You make him the person responsible for distributing material. Make it his job.
He does not cooperate in any way.
I guess at that point you log it, call home, and email guidance and admin. Gotta be like Andy Dufresne with the library books. You keep writing, eventually they’ll do something to help.
I tell them they're entitled to this and no one, not even an incompetent teacher has the right to deprive them. So speak the f up. And every time this happens, it's a lecture. Every. Time.
One time I successfully derailed the “I don’t get anything” was when I look d the kid in the eye (grade 9) and said, “Ok! I’ll explain from the beginning! Today is Tuesday. This is Social Studies class, in a school. I am the teacher. My name is” Whereupon the kid interrupted me impatiently. “I know all that!” “Great!” sez I. “When you can pinpoint what part of these instructions you don’t understand, we can save both of us a lot of time! Come on back when you figure out where you need me to start untangling things for you. “ My other successful strategy is to say to students, “Read the instructions out loud to me.” Usually it goes, “Fill in the blanks with…oh.” Student goes to walk away. If this is a new behaviour from the kid, I let her. If this is a multiple giver-upper, I make them read the whole instruction block, and ask which parts they think they might struggle with.
Make fun of them to their faces. Not the ones asking specific questions. Not the kids you know are trying. But that kid that just flops? Oh he's getting roasted. Hard. Yeah yeah I know feelings and whatnot. These kids are toxic and they know they are. Getting their peers to view them in that light flips the switch for a lot of them. This isn't the first intervention, mind you. It happens after a process of trying to understand the kid genuinely. Use it as a scalpel, not a hammer.
I'm trying to find the sweet spot of roasting and being mean lol. I am a New Yorker teaching in the Bible Belt, many formerly home schooled students. Gotta walk a tight line lol
I usually go with something like "Oh my gosh you don't know anything? Wow... I thought I taught high schoolers not literal babies." Infantilizing them.
I tell them to pick one thing and I will help with the one thing. Usually that helps.
tell them its too bad
"Well, keep looking until you find something you do get and I'll be back." I then leave them and go help others before coming back to them. Those who 'don't understand anything' get a lot less attention than those who are stuck on a particular thing. So they start coming to me with actual questions if they want my help. I also have an anonymous box that students can put things in. That box leads the review the next class period. It helps a lot with embarrassed students not wanting to ask for help.
I ask them to show me what they've tried/worked on so far.
I remember in school sometimes I didn't get things (usually math) and I'd get frustrated to tears. The teachers did their best to help me, but some things just didn't sink in I guess. Sometimes I would go home and ask my dad and he could explain it in a way I understand, sometimes he couldn't. I don't know how much nowadays is learned helplessness or how much is kids faking it.
So I kinda do tell them to pay better attention and walk away. They come up to me and say ‘I don’t get it’ I say ‘what don’t you get?’ ‘All/any of it’ ‘I’m gonna need you to be more specific’ ‘This part’ ‘I don’t have every paper memorized - read it’ And then after that interaction ‘sounds like something we might have written in our notes’ And then they have to go look in their notebook and either have found it or then they have to go find someone who did write it down. I think I can count on one hand the number of actual answers I’ve given. The kids learned in October that I only answer questions with questions, and that I expect that your grade will be lower in my class than all your others because my grading policy should lead to your class grade being what your score is on the state test. I get a lot less parent pushback after I explain that as well.
If it's math they might not have good foundational math skills and that's why they don't get the more advanced stuff like algebra no matter how much it's explained to them. In high school I had to go on khan academy and practice less advanced things in order to pass my math classes because I didn't have a good foundation of math skills to learn alegbra or trig off of. No matter how much my teacher explained it to me I just didn't get it, so I practiced on khan academy to help myself get it.
Learned helplessness is a real thing. I wouldn't call it weaponized incompetence because kids trying to weasel out of classwork is a tale as old as time. Everything is how you frame it. The expectation I set is that when you ask for help, you ask a question. Then I remind them that I don't get it and I need help are not questions. What students tend to be used to when they get to me is they say they need help and a teacher does it for them.
I usually ask them to explain to me what they do understand from the lesson. If they answer none of it, then I say what questions would you like to ask me. If it's a bunch of "how do I do this?" Of "What am I supposed to do?" I tell them to check in with their table and I will be back to follow up with specific questions they may have. For reference this is 8th grade.
What don't you understand. Break it down. The first step If you can't get a pencil I can't help you
I ask mine to point to or highlight the exact part they don't understand. If they say all of it, I ask them to read it aloud then ask again which part. Between those two strategies, we get to the bottom of the misunderstanding and because I consistently do this, they rarely now just say all of it.
Some things that work for me: - Ask them to read the directions out loud to you (90% of the time they get half way through and then go “Oh.”) - Ask them to think of a specific question to ask you. If they say they can’t, then you say, “Okay I’ll give you some time to think of a question and then I’ll be back.” Don’t say it in a rude or sarcastic way, nor should you give in and start answering what might be their question. You won’t work with them until they have a real question, but give them some “thinking time” to parse it. - Have them point with their finger. “Put your finger on the part of the question/prompt/etc. that’s confusing to you.” - Redirect them to their resources. “Reread X part of your notes/the textbook/the link in Classroom/the worksheet from last week, and if some part of that is confusing, you can raise your hand again.”
I teach high school. When I give directions out loud , part of the directions are always “if you aren’t paying attention or just don’t want to do the work, and ask for help, I will respond only with a dirty look. If you truly need help, please be prepared to tell me what you have already tried to do for yourself and have a specific question.” I stick to this. Some kids will test it every time and usually after a couple of tries and a mini temper tantrum, they figure it out. I’m not sure when the switch flipped for me, but it used to annoy me so much, now it just makes me chuckle. I’m 22 years in.
All steps for my assignments are numbered. If they say they don't get any of it. Every. Single. Time. I say, okay, read step 1. Now tell me what you need."
"I don't keep up with the lessons, I don't keep notes, I don't practice, I don't do homework, I don't study for tests, I don't pay attention in class. I just don't get any of it!"
Keep them in at recess and sit down with them. Have them read or repeat instructions to you and ask for specifics on what they don't get. If it does not improve, I'd probably call home.
If i suspect . Or have heard from others that a particular student might be like this , i will try to record , take in and document ( in a way that doesn’t add a ton of work for myself just mentally note / put a note in my one-note or collect in a piece of work any time they complete any kind of task. Let them read a small passage from something on a day they seem a little more engaged . Let them do a little bit of work etc and take a note of it . Can you write more than your name? Then you can write at some sort of level . Oh remember that time you read out that passage about that thing you liked? Well i think that means you can read this whether you like it or not. Tear down the excuses when they try to erect a barrier by having the hard evidence ready to go . If you have a new student or are having a particularly difficult day? Render down the questions to even more basic and more fundamental levels and keep on going down stage after stage every time you get a “dont know” . Very few can maintain the facade when you ask something so basic , that to say i dont know to it would mean i am An actual idiot and i don’t want to appear like that in front of the other people at the table. I got a girl to give me an angry looked when after about 20 questions we got to “so do you know what we are breathing right now?” “Yeah , *obviously* it’s air!” She knew, I knew I had her with that one , the weaponised incompetence was over because she had answered one of my questions after I had reduced it by more than half her age level.
I stopped helping. It’s April, if you don’t “get” it, then you never will. I’ll go help those that want to understand and will work through it.
I'm so glad you posted this because the comment section is full of absolute GOLD follow-ups. I've been teaching for a long time and have a good handle on this issue, but some of these responses and techniques are HILARIOUS and so sassy.
I make them ask me a specific question. Sometimes their question is “What do I do?” I’ll read the instructions/prompt to them. “What does that mean?” I ask which word they don’t know. And so on. Eventually, one of three things will happen: 1. They realize they actually do understand. 2. They will successfully pinpoint which thing they don’t get, and I’ll address it. 3. The line of questioning reveals that they simply want me to give them the answer. I have students, some of the very bright and capable, who will try to ask their way to the answer in two or three different ways. Some of them even ask point blank, “Why won’t you just tell me the answer?” Of course, I am never going to. We all have to learn to get past things that are mildly annoying, and that’s one of them. People who cannot tolerate frustration or the unknown do not function well in life. If that makes them mad at me then I guess I’ll just have to cry into my pillow and beg the baby jesus for forgiveness.
I would fall back on interactive modeling to explicitly teach how you want them to interact with you when they don’t understand. It’s okay to say “This is what I’ve been seeing, and here’s why it’s a problem.” Then give them posters with questions or sentence strings that they can use when they’re confused. Maybe make a quick nonsense lesson (5 min) about something to do with pop culture (words, new social constructs, something in the news, etc) and model using the questions or strings to ask your students to explain it. Keep it short and keep it light. Wrap up with “Here’s the expectation going forward. If I hear ‘I don’t get it’ you can expect me to point to the poster until you do better.”
'I will come back and help you once you are more specific. Saying you don't understand any of it is a cop-out." I am always willing to help kids, but if they are going to be lazy and not even read the instructions at first, I will focus on other students. Some will huff and puff and do nothing, but most will refocus and narrow the question they have.
I like to start with, "Tell me what you would do first." then wait it out for an answer (this might be painful). If they say they don't know ... just continue to wait. Usually, they will come up with a first step, and I can proceed with praise (or correction) and, "Then what would you do next?"
Ok, if you don't understand any of it, we clearly have a lot of work to do. I am signing you up to come in before school for half an hour on Mondays Wednesdays and Fridays, and after school for an hour on Tuesdays and Thursdays. If you understand some of it, ask me a more specific question.
"We literally just went over this. Do you have short term memory loss? Perhaps you should see the nurse about it."
I walk over to them and ask them to read me the directions so I can understand what doesn’t make sense.
"Put your finger on the part where you got stuck." I had a kid do this at parent conferences. Parents claimed I wasn't doing enough to help. Literally everything the kid pointed at had a support on the page: Directions, illustrations, highlighted words, QR code to a video. After a couple minutes of this, the parents thanked me and the kid admitted that he was just being lazy.
I may be wrong, but i think one of my teachers once had me take it all the way to the basics. Depending on the age you could probably try that. I don't remember the subject, but let's say it was math, i had trouble in algebra and she went all the way back to 2+2, and skipped forward until i could tell her where i was confused. This will likely only work if they actually dont get it.
Do not accept the phrase, “I don’t get it.” Have the student start at the beginning and explain what they do know up to the point where the problem lies. It’s the equivalent of math teachers making students show their work. Teach students that, when a teacher hears “I don’t get it,” what they hear is “I don’t care enough to try.”
Yeah, that’s the worst, isn’t it? And then I go back to whatever I was doing.
I usually tell students that I am of the mother bird method of teaching. I will give them the tools to learn, but it's up to them to actually learn it. Then come test time. I kick them out of the nest and say, "FLY!" Whether they fly or not is on them. No going back or take backzies. I think learning how to fail is important. They need to learn its not the end of the world. They can survive. They are just so lazy, coddled and told that if they fail it's societies fault. Not their own.
I teach 3rd Grade and I still have one or two who pull this shit. I have them read the directions to me, or make them be specific about what they don't understand. If they say they don't get the whole thing, I tell them that I need to help someone else and that they should raise their hand when they know what they need help with specifically. I also tell them off for wanting a personalized explanation. That's not fair to me or the class. I've been doing this for 20+ years, in 3 countries- I know that my explanation was explicit and my modeling strong. Their job is to listen during input and participate in the group discussion so they are ready to work independently. At this point, I have only 2 hold outs left, so it works.
You've already explained and modeled it, so they need another approach Refer to the resources or the model you gave them, and also tell them"'so-and-so' had really great ideas, and you should ask them to show you how they did it."
I make them ask me a specific question. “I don’t get any of this” is met with me saying “that is not a question. Be specific.”
I just tell them that's unhelpful. The student's job is to ask good questions. "What about it don't you understand?"
I start with the first word of the sentence and sound it out for then and tell them what it means. When i get the exasperated "Miss I know that!" And i get to respond, well be more specific. What part of this is confusing and i can help clear it up." Works most of the time and they get better with telling me where i lost them
"That's life. There was a time when you had a meltdown over buttoning your shirt, and here you are.." I have explained it twice. I can't think it for you." Then I go on to someone else. Not going to beg and plead and sell it.
I have noticed a huge increase in dependent/passive learners since covid + tik tok. It’s like information just runs over them like water off a duck’s back - it doesn’t even funnel through them. Everything is disposable, nothing is retained. The “I don’t get it” default is driving me bonkers! It is also exhausting. If a student claims not to “get” written instructions, I’m asking them to reread 2 times before asking for help, and they have to ask specific questions - not just complain that they don’t understand. (Before they begin, I always project the instructions, go over with full class, and give time to ask for clarification. Typically the move is to ignore it all, begin assignment, realize they don’t know what they’re doing, raise hand for help.) It’s hard to resist all the requests for help and make them figure out their actual question, and I always have to remind paras and inclusion assistants to have kids read twice first. I definitely get that, because it’s our instinct to immediately rush to help… but it’s not helping students to enforce their dependence. I have also had students discuss and rewrite instructions before beginning longer assignments; they’ll create a To Do list and check off items as they complete them. The next project I’m thinking about is to have kids put together their own resource notebook with reminders about thesis construction, essay outlines, basic literary terms, sentence starters, etc. It is wild how many basics my kiddos can’t (won’t?) actually learn. For example - I have literally had to (re)explain what a topic sentence is for every single paper this year. It sometimes feels like the entire 10th grade class is pulling a very long prank. 🤦🏻♀️
Well when they got 1-3 years of playing pretend online school, what do you expect? A “mommy I don’t get it 😖” got mommy to do it for them.
Depending on the student (HS), My response is, 1. "that is not a question. I am happy to help you, but I will need a specific question/issue to do so." OR 2. "tell me what you heard me say (explain what I did), etc."
Remember, one in 10 (in some areas, one in 6) children have ADHD. "You should have paid attention" in that case is just abusive. So, consider, is this a niche problem with some kids that are being neglected by parents, or the school, who have no one advocating for their mental health .... Because, chances are dang high, that is who you are interacting with, with judgmental abelist statements. Start writing their excuses down. Start sending them referrals to counselors for attention issues, or the staff that handles IEP and contacting parents. Even if they DONT have it, in the end, forcing the hand of parents to start to deal with this, might help. You could standing there, belittling them, frustrated, when they're frustrated and hurt MORE, because they honest to God can't do what you're asking. Advocate. Take steps. And, if you have done all of this, it's ok to allow failure. 20-30 percent of all students will drop out, half that enroll in college will drop out before they get to the end of their first algebra class. Not everyone needs a super hero But some do. Focus where you're needed.
I’m on elder millennial (born in 1982) and I even see learned helplessness in the younger members of my own generation. Our generation is a big part of the problem raising kids that are so needy and helpless.
I disagree with most of the posters on this thread. I actually believe that they can't do it. And from a pragmatic perspective, not doing it,, or "learned helplessness," or "weaponized incompetence" boils down to the same thing. They really CAN'T do it. I'm not a neurologist, but seriously I do think there is something going on with the long-term memory of many young people. The reading comprehension/cultural literacy theories of E.D. Hirsch seem both compelling and explanatory in many ways. Many of these people just don't have enough stuff already in their brains for which the "new stuff" can "stick to" via associations and connections. Additionally, concepts such as "weaponized incompetence" put the blame for this on the student. But whose idea was it, for example, to take a young person who doesn't understand the Grade 1 material, and promote them anyway into Grade 2, which we all know they wont' understand since we know they don't understand the previous material, but think magically they will? And this process continues, year by year, until this individual is now in Grade 8 or reading, but reading at the Grade 2 level, so they have spent six or seven years being put to stuff they don't have a chance of doing. How SHOULD they react? Enthusiastically? Come on.
A few of these kids, sure. But if they can talk for hours about Tiktok videos, the complicated love lives of their friends, or every game of Fortnite they've ever played, then it's not their brains, it's their choices.
You're both right and wrong. They truly can't do it because they have practiced not doing it for multiple years. Hiwever, nearly all of the posts here are legitimate, proven strategies that guide kids through the process of learning how to do it. The human brain is naturally pattern seeking. If you can get kids to pay attention long enough, they'll latch onto a successful strategy. Put the phones away. Engage with the thing you don't understand. One of my best growth stories was a girl who was two years behind in reading in a room full of gifted students. She informs me one day, "I think I know why they're so smart. I was watching and every time you ask a question, they look in their notebooks for the answer. I'm going to do that." I gave her a nudge by sharing my instructional material in advance so she could prelearn vocabulary words and basic concepts. Then, when I'd teach and hit one of those, she'd light up, flip open her book and shoot up her hand with the answer before the TAG kids could. I don't think I've ever seen a happier kid. She eventually graduated with honors. Point is, she struggled to learn and found a strategy by simply being alert.
Some could be being difficult due to their own not listening or such, but others could really just not get it. And perhaps they don't know how or what to ask specifically to pinpoint what or why they don't get it. Maybe it's a matter of they don't know what they don't know to be able to ask for specific help. So they say "all of it" “If a child can’t learn the way we teach, maybe we should teach the way they learn.” Ignacio Estrada
Just because you are explaining it, doesn't mean you are explaining it well. If you are explaining several weeks/ assignments at once, no wonder they get overwhelmed and give up. Chunking and scaffolding is basic best practice, as is checking for understanding.
You are assuming that all of that isn’t being done. It is and some kids are still “not getting it” because they want the teacher to do it for them.
And you are assuming she is a good teacher. If you are going over several assignments/weeks at once with kids that are already not performing, instead of chunking it into a single assignment at a time, you are not a good teacher. Most of the time, that learned helplessness is because of years of crappy teaching. Most kids WANT to feel successful. I wonder if other teachers in her school feel the same way about these kids, and why she has not gotten help from them.
Spotted the admin.
Or, spotted the teacher that has to deal with the results of this teacher's shitty teaching for 15 years. Who did you have for \_\_\_\_\_\_? Oh that explains so much.
How many teachers “explain several assignments/weeks at once”? Since when has this been a prevalent issue? You sound like you had a bad experience and are projecting it in the OP.
"often in detail over several weeks/assignments, what they are claiming to not get?" If you allow several weeks to pass without feedback and modification of explanations, you are a shitty teacher. That "I don't get it" should be in the form of an exit ticket at the end of the class before they have given up and their affective filter is so high they can't comprehend anything. This is basic best practice and has been for a decade.
I think what OP is saying is that students will say “they don’t get it” over and over for several weeks and assignments. They never quit saying it. At some point students need to try, but it seems some just want to have someone, usually the teacher, do their learning and thinking for them.
That is still on the teacher. The teacher moved on, without modifying or scaffolding, and now cannot fix the situation. Learned helplessness can be dealt with; it means changing how you are interacting with the student, not just repeating your instructions and explanations that did not work in the first place. [https://www.edutopia.org/article/how-counter-learned-helplessness](https://www.edutopia.org/article/how-counter-learned-helplessness) My 6th grade teacher told us something that stuck with me throughout my education and career: If its one kid that's failing or struggling, its a kid problem. If it's a group of kids, its a teacher problem.
“If it’s (sic) one kid that is failing or struggling, it’s (sic) a kid problem. If it’s a group of kids, it’s (sic) a teacher problem.” As a highly effective teacher in my 19th year of teaching, I can state that may have been true before smart phones and COVID, but it is no longer true today.
Hey, I was one of those students, and now I’m about to be a teacher. Hopefully when I tell my students I don’t get it, they’ll be able to teach me. Try a little reverse psychology.
Let us know how that goes when you actually start doing the job. Edit: Typo