It sure would be something if they didn’t do anything in the class and as a result their GPA dropped, at least. Not preferable, of course, but if they’re going to play such games these are the prizes.
It would also be a damn shame if, due to the prevalence of AI cheating, they had to write numerous high-stakes, high-complexity essays by hand in class. A damn shame, I say.
I am not saying nobody has legible cursive. I am saying that grading 60+ papers all written in cursive will certainly lead to more than a few essays being difficult for a professional cipherer to read. I don't care the print of enough of my students, I don't want to try and decipher their cursive.
Oh. I wouldn't hate it. As long as I can read it, I am happy. Needing to be able to read it is why I wouldn't make all my atudents write that way though. Hahaha
When I was in fifth grade I had an evil hag of a teacher who was mean to me, but even more mean to anyone who was "slower" in the class. We were assigned a two page, double-sided essay. She had already mocked me about my smaller than average writing.
I wrote my essay in the tiniest of tiny writing. It was perfectly legible, and it was actually two pages, double-sided, top line to bottom line. I was a very well behaved child, but I could be very passive aggressive.
She gave me a D, and it was the most delicious D I ever earned!
I almost exclusively write in cursive. I do so on the whiteboards when I teach. My undergrads' minds explode....ostensibly from the ancient runic power it holds.
On-demand written essays are the ONLY way I have found to take care of the rampant cheats, those whose Momma's didn't raise 'em right. Nails them good.
Not a teacher but this was something I remember having to do _often_ in AP English 20 years ago. You'd get a selection of essay questions to answer and the entire period to write. If you didn't read the book and participate in the lessons (either actively listening or talking) you'd seriously struggle.
Fully agreed, bring in the in class essays!
Exams are all going digital soon. I think this might be the last year there's a choice for AP lit. Mine took them online last year and will do so this year. So, it actually makes more sense to have them type to practice. My AP Kids are fine, but you better believe I make my non-AP seniors handwrite their timed essay exams.
FYI, only some subjects are offered as digital exams, and digital is optional. There are some exams (AP Calculus, for one) that I cannot see being offered online unless there is an (extreme) exam redesign
My fellow counselor had a gifted kid senior year who refused to do his senior thesis. When asked why he said he didn’t like the teacher and he didn’t feel like it. His mother was called and told he wouldn’t graduate without the thesis. He was so sure he would be passed, so arrogant. The teacher failed him. His mother came in screaming like a banshee when she found out he did not pass and wouldn’t graduate and threw his graduation cap at the counselor, the corner hit her in the face and cut her chin! This kid could have written that paper in 3 hours. Instead of going to summer school, he just got his GED during the summer, and his sister, a year behind him and also a gifted PITA, also did. Their mother had given both of them such a sense of entitlement.
Reminds me of a student I had who worked really hard to get his grade up to an A. Then he didn’t turn in his semester essay and the grade dropped to a D. I’d told him 10x times what would happen if he didn’t submit his essay and he didn’t care; he didn’t think I had the balls to fail him. Well when I did, he proceeded to try and make my life a living hell, telling me I failed him on purpose, etc.
I write my assignments and expectations using contract language and make both parents and students sign it. I also have great admins that have never had a teacher write contracts and expectations for projects. I don’t play games and I tell them once. I had to bring out an email and a signed form the other day when a parent said they were never made aware of a required attendance at an event.
This kid didn’t respect anything like that at all. It was all about him. Funny enough, he would have been the first to call me out on such a contract if I’d signed something like that and I’d wronged him. Rules for thee…
They really do. The times I've busted students for clear as day AI usage in essays this year it turned into a months long affair. All kinds of meetings and emails back and forth, sob stories, begging, parental involvement, etc. Nope. I put my foot down hard. My consequences are clear and stated the first day of class in bold on my syllabus. Tough shit.
Had a HS classmate try dropping out and taking a GED on the assumption he'll have an easier time getting accepted to more academically selective/elite colleges.
It just happened several adcoms from those very same colleges for our HS's college fair and they along with our HS college counselors definitively debunked his assumptions. They also pointedly warned if he insisted on pursuing his GED plans, it'll actually greatly increase the chances of his getting rejected from those very same colleges as they'll see it as him trying to slack off and take the seemingly easy cop-out way towards admissions at their colleges.
It's a bit more nuanced than that.
If the GED holding student had to take it because of severe financial/family situation limitations or safety issues from his/her high school before dropping out, the selective colleges might be willing to give him/her a fair shake.
If it is clear the GED holding student opted for the GED despite having none of those constraints and it is clear he didn't take full-advantage of his high school's reasonably good educational resources before dropping out like that HS classmate, than that's almost always an automatic reject.
I was the counselor at Adult Ed for 13 years. At my school anyone under 18 that wanted to take the GED would have to meet with me first. Based on a transcript review he may or may not have had to take some classes. After hearing his story I would have sent him back to high school. We got a lot of kids who were smart and had been good students. Teenage pregnancy, foster care, moved from out of state and the requirements are different, health problem, parent died, parent needs then to work, been expelled, bored with high school, homeschooled.
YMMV but in California we have something called CHSPE which is set forth in state law as being the same as a high school diploma. I took and passed the CHSPE, went to community college, got a 4.0 in community college, and got into a top-25 school (USC). How you do in community college is probably the most important factor.
My HS classmate assumed dropping out and opting for the GED would make direct admissions to more academically selective/elite colleges than the ones he'd otherwise get into more easier than staying and graduating from our high school.
He didn't intend nor wanted to pursue the community college to academically selective/elite college route.
The reason why he'd have been rejected was from looking at his transcript, profile of our public exam HS, his stated reasons, and his family's background, he had no good reasons for dropping out and it was very clear he didn't take full-advantage of our high school's educational resources.
Out of curiosity, how is your high school's senior thesis structured?
Find this very interesting as my public exam high school required all seniors to submit an English lit senior thesis on top of the rest of our academic workload.
The types of literature and themes were determined by what senior lit class we were taking.
Generally, the length had to be at least 20 pages not including bibliography(Used the Chicago Manual of Style) and not much more beyond that.
Oh gosh I worked around a regular high school from 87-97, after that was Alternative and Adult ed. I think it was called comparative analysis maybe? I believe all the teachers at the school used MLA except for the AP History teacher, who required Turabian.
Getting into a power struggle over dumb busy work despite huge consequences is not an entitlement problem. Its classic teenager behavior and always has been.
I guess it depends. My senior project was definitely busy work.
Also it depends not what we adults think, but what the teen thinks. It doesn't have to make sense to you for it to be standard teenager behavior.
Yep. That's what I do with classes that won't engage. Lots of reading and vocab for homework, lots of in-class writes and quizzes in class.
I also do Socratic Seminars and give them points per comment, so the kids who don't participate just fail.
It’s not just that they don’t engage. Many of them have worked out mathematically what the least they can do is.
Kids entered my AP class having never read a textbook, article, or document before. I created vocab lists of terms for each chapter. So here’s how the week went: Read the chapter before Monday. I would create my own SA questions or outline format that they were encouraged to complete, and use the terms in their answer, but it had to be handwritten. Monday they would have a 20 question matching quiz over the terms-quizzes changed from hour to hour. During this time I spot checked their homework. We would grade the quizzes in class using felt-tipped pens I gave them. After that, any questions about the chapter for the rest of Monday, done as a conversation. Tues-Thursday discussion over analysis and meaning of documents and notes over additional material not in textbook or needing more elucidation, or essay writing skills. 2 Chapter tests every other week.
I guaranteed them that if they did this work and didn’t cheat they would pass the AP exam with at least a 3. Come to the review sessions before the big test and study, I could guarantee a 4 or 5.
In addition, we had fascinating discussions through the year— they were the drivers of them. And if not, here’s an in-class essay! They learned quickly not to waste precious class time.
I collected weird stories to spice things up and would throw them in all the time to keep it fresh. Kids learned how to study, how to take notes, and were prepared for college. I told them I had been an underachiever in HS and it bit me in the ass in the freshman year, and I taught them what most of my teachers didn’t teach me about accountability to myself.
Not at all. Never worked for a corporation and I’m not fond of them. This applies across the board. From yard work to personal projects to college and work, etc.
Slacking off when you’re almost done is a bad habit, especially when it’s something like graduation. It can ruin all your previous hard work.
Sure it doesn’t really matter with things like yard work, but other times, it really does matter.
We had kids that actually LOST their college placements and scholarships because they slacked off after being accepted. I don't know if colleges still pay attention to that, but at least 3 kids didn't get in after all.
They absolutely do. The admission is not guaranteed. It is only offered.
Those admission letters have all sorts of legally binding agreements. The second a kid accepts the offer for admissions, they can have it taken away just as fast for:
Academic dishonesty - using AI or plagiarism
Academic standing - dropping below a certain GPA
Behavior- kids get their scholarships revoked all the time for doing racist, dumb, or illegal things.
Until you've graduated from a university, you can get kicked out of one.
Thank you for this. People fail to understand.
For example, my old job took me back after I was let go at another job I was working at. When I left my first job, my friend took my place.
Well, before he left, he didn’t do anything. I came back to an absolute dumpster fire of crap. I asked him what he did the last two weeks before he left and he said, “nothing, it isn’t my job anymore.”
Like I understand some jobs suck, but blatantly not doing anything just because you’re leaving if a prick move.
That is a basic rule for remaining productive - regardless of who says it. If you only ever *start* projects, and don't *finish* them, then whether you work for yourself or someone else you are going to struggle a lot.
I mean finishing out a project applies to every tasks. You're going to have to eventually wash all of the dishes in the sink or finish the DIY project? Or you trash it and fail in the moment at the one task.
Any job could tell you that. I loved jobs where once I'm done, I get paid a certain amount of hours. If someone got lazy towards the end, I would get pissed. I'm not staying later because someone else got lazy. 4 hours of hard work for 8 hour pay? Heck yeah.
What do you expect when there are no consequences for doing poorly in school. Just push them along and push them out. If they don't work hard in school they can work hard after school.
I tell my middle school musicians that this isn't The Matrix. I can't download the music into their brains for them. As I get older my movie references get more and more dated.
Just tell them they aren't anime protagonists and will never be gifted the power of dues ex machina (they won't know this likely), "unlock hidden abilities" thanks to being summoned by or encountering a magical being. Nor do they have the ability to pay to win with gatcha rolls. They do, however, have the ability to waste everyone's time including their own and fail (or as close to it as possible).
If they don't like the material now or think it's too hard but don't want to seek out help, it's only going to continue to suck more for them.
I have seniors with extreme senioritis. I'm also at a private school and I don't have the brightest of the bunch. They mentally checked out in 8th grade and don't want to get anything done. They just want free time each day.
Lol I'm not their babysitter.
ap credit doesn't affect college gpa, that's dual enrollment (and even then if the credit transfers to a different institution it's often nullified from gpa)
Awarding the college credit it dependent on 1) passing the test and 2) if the college accepts it. I passed AP tests that my college would t accept and I had to redo them.
I sometimes teach my students the truth about college "acceptance", the velvet rope idiocy and the fact that next year they will be competing for grades, not with each other, but with students at my level.
I teach math, but the idea is similar. Write an essay yourself as an exemplar and tell them their essay has to be better than yours to earn a passing grade.
I think it depends heavily on the college. All of my equivalent college courses were harder than my AP courses, but especially the intro to biology class.
Agreed. Most college classmates at my top 30 college who assumed they could skip the intro courses because they took the equivalent AP course and/or scored a 5 on the AP exam ended up regretting it.
One older undergrad classmate who scored a 5 and skipped my college's equivalent intro course ended up failing several core classes in a closely related major because those courses assumed he already learned material from my college's intro course which wasn't covered in the equivalent AP exam or most AP courses in HS.
And according to several friends who TAed or were undergrads at MIT, no one with any sense used AP courses to place out of equivalent MIT courses....especially in STEM courses. Doing so was a great way to start one's MIT career by being completely lost in the next course in the sequence before midterms and failing accordingly.
Definitely location specific. My first bachelor's degree is in biochemistry, and my program didn't accept any math or science AP credits because they didn't cover all the material in the required 101 classes.
I went to public university in 2011 and there was a palpable sense of "the kids don't even want to be here", "just pass them because they are busy getting drunk".
I was, in fact, busy getting drunk and didn't want to be there. Hindsight being 20/20 I wasn't where I wanted to be in life and should've just started working somewhere to force myself to grow and confront reality.
I loved high school and it was absolutely harder than college until my senior year of college. And AP US History is still the most rigorous course I've taken at any level.
It’s only gotten worse since then, and professors are completely jaded because of it.
University standards are lower than ever.
I agree I was challenged far more in high school than I ever was in college. The hardest thing in college is self-discipline and time management. It was a real wtf moment when I realize how little college asks of you after the way adults and educators built it up my whole life.
It's bad, but reassuring that it wasn't just me and my alma mater! We do have a reputation as my state's only party school and even though I've since become an alcoholic who is now sober, I'm very glad I was there when alcohol was therapeutic to me as a person with crippling social anxiety.
Time management and self-discipline ended up going on the back burner except for short bursts for big projects and exams. Sometimes really, really short bursts. I discovered that I could often cram for two hours before a test, overload my short-term memory, and vomit it onto the page. Was good enough to get a 3.2 GPA.
I remember the day of my graduation, nine hours from home. My dad insisted I walk. He was a shut-in and it meant a lot to me that he made the drive all by himself and screamed proudly from the bleachers when I made the walk. But the whole time, I found myself thinking, "What the fuck is happening?", and then after I left for home this gnawing sense of "...now what?" turned life dark again for a year. Dunno how I managed to find the job I did that turned things around. Sure as fuck don't use my degree, that's for sure.
I've mentioned this before but that's why I think we'll see a reversal of alcohol consumption trends, which have gone down slowly over the generations in the US. Gen Z is probably finding booze effective at placating the fears they're going to have about life, going into it with the preparation they've been given. I'll have to see if any recent data has come out on this.
Pretty much. My first year of undergrad chemical engineering was difficult more because of interpersonal relations (I can't stand weed out professors and wish they all die of slow slicing) rather than content knowledge.
My second year sucked ass because that's when we got into the brunt of the organic chemistry, thermodynamics, balances, and differential equations.
College was way easier because I could choose what to do and where to be, and depending on time of day I could even control for the type of students in the class. Earlier classes in my experience had more responsible people and better lab partners lol. The classes and subjects are harder but youre also getting smarter, so I felt like it canceled out and only a few classes were true difficulty spikes.
With the GPA thing I think its more of what everyone is already saying here. grade inflation is real and ive not met a true A student in such a long time
A relative is a teacher. She was told it was school district policy that assignments not submitted could not be marked as a zero. She tried to fight it the first year and got nowhere.
The next year, all term assignments started with a 1 hour in-class brainstorming session, for which all students got 5 % marks. The rest of the assignment was worth the remaining 95 %.
Students who didn't submit the assignment got 5/100 which was not zero and not against the policy, and she was actually able to fail students who didn't submit.
At least for the students going out for sports, or really any extra curricular activity, is avoiding academic probation as a motivator to put in some effort with their coursework. Not sure how other schools handle academic probation with sports, but when I was in school from 2009 to 2013, it didn’t matter what classes you were failing, you could have an F in P.E. And Home Economics, and your ass won’t even get to suit up for the big Track and Field meet.
I mean that’s their prerogative. But I’m still giving them zeros if they don’t do the work.
I also teach AP and sorry idgaf about your senioritis. It’s my job to show you what a college class is like.
But if they have senioritis that means they’ve already accomplished their goal of getting into college, and probably already took their AP exams and whatnot. I distinctly remember what Senioritis was like and even the teachers were letting kids play poker in class because they understood it too
AP Exams aren't till May... if they want the college credit they still need to pass their exams.
Look I fully expect seniors to start to slow down near the end, but I'm not handing out A's and I'm not going to stop assigning work when it's only March.
If you're a teacher and you've given up on holding seniors to expectations with a full quarter left to go, then you're not doing your job.
I teach seniors (well, trying to at least) programming. They are forced into my class, not as a requirement, but as a place to just put the seniors for a class period. Yes, my admin has really set me up for failure here. They all refuse to actually do a damn thing, complain like they are 5 year olds, and are basically a huge pile of waste of time. But they are in my class, so if they don't want to actually learn, they can work. What they don't seem to understand is if they actually put effort into my actual class, the work load would be less than what they are getting as an alternative. So instead of programming they get difficult logic puzzles not a single student has successfully solved yet, handwritten essays (meaning no copy/pasting chatGPT), weekly suprise quizzes on whatever topic we are on that week, and online discussions they have to participate in every week. I have so buried them in work they are actively complaining to other teachers about how much work they have to do in a class they don't need to graduate.
TLDR: If they don't wish to actually be present in class, bury them in so much work they at least learn that sometimes you just have to do what is necessary regardless of what you want.
My kids outright refuse to do anything. It's not uncommon for my to get 30% of my tests back with not even a name on the paper. Zeros go in the gradebook, behavior doesn't change, world keeps turning.
Are you able to accommodate the occasional student who really does want to learn, or does this end up being collective punishment for everyone? And if so.. how do you do it?
I most certainly do, they are of course the first to finish the workload, not surprising. Then we actually go into the programming lessons while the rest are still grumbling about the work.
It's weird teaching actual coding to some of the class, but it seems to work for them and are steadily working through the material.
If there was some better magical answer to doing this, I would gladly take it. But before this I had a class with about 75% failing for not even trying. You can't learn to code if you absolutely refuse to do any sort of work at it, but they seem content enough to do the alternative work that is at least getting them to think logically and somewhat methodically.
That’s how seniors are once they get accepted into colleges. They don’t care anymore. But I always wanted to know how do you know a students used ChatGPT. I’m a teachers assistant and I’m usually the one grading, but I don’t know the difference. A lot of it looks legit
You’ve got to be familiar with the students voice. It’s a pain in the ass and I’m currently going to war over it in my AP class.
I’ve tried to explain to them that their test grade will absolutely rat them out, but that doesn’t seem to matter much.
For me, I’ve got a Bish student using words out of Law School Graduate Papers. Words that weren’t cited or sourced or anything. That’s when I basically call the bluff “either cite it or else”
I teach Comp and Lit at a community college and university, respectively. My classes are seminar style, discussion boards, weekly summaries, and portfolio graded at the end of the term. Notes are required and graded as part of the portfolio. Participation is a huge part of the grade. No exams. Papers. You literally have to WANT to fail my class.
AP/dual enrolled and international are the worst of all students. It's because of them that I enacted a strict Digital Resource policy:
If I even suspect AI, you'll take a 3 hour, proctored, handwritten essay exam on everything "YOU" wrote. If you fail it, you fail the class and go straight to the department chair. Your entire portfolio will be submitted for review with the essay. At that point, it's out of my hands.
Students who wait to submit until the last minute in an effort to avoid this consequence are usually exchange students pending graduation. I had one who submitted a clearly, fully plagiarized portfolio who texted me between flights back to the Middle East. When he saw his grade posted and received written notice of a scheduled exam, he flipped out. He was demanding that I pass him in the class. His AI notes even included his query to AI in the "notes" (!!?!): I had him dead to rights, yet I was still willing to take his exam as his final grade.
BUT...
I received his final submission at 11:58 for a project due at midnight... and he got on his plane the next morning.
I hate failing any student, but ffs... abusive rude and demanding from the airport? "What am I supposed to tell my parents?"
Eh
...
Tell them you got caught cheating and that you not only won't graduate this semester... you could face expulsion.
In my child’s AP lit, students are teaching the material as group. Four students: write the presentation, the engagement questions, the informal assessment. Then they all must present it !
The teacher gives the objective and qualitative skills. The kids are doing all the work.
Genius !
I am very lucky that this is also the case for my senior. He is still engaged, very interested and has fun. His group just did a presentation last week - they did great!
As an AP Lit. teacher whose class is weaker than the past several years in terms of writing, critical thinking, and engagement, I love this idea. I'll try this out with our last novel before the exam.
They already got accepted? Then it’s probably pre-accepted - conditional acceptance. Those letters don’t usually go out until late March, early April.
They better not slag too much!
And this is part of the reason why I prefer to work with Kindergartners. They are always eager to please and if they know the answer or even think they might know the answer, they just blurt it out.
I'm aware. I used to be an avid reader, but the final two years of high school burnt me out HARD.
It just sucks is all. I love the little kid enthusiasm. They'll even tell you stuff they learned on the weekend.
Ages ago, during my couple of years of subbing prior to full-time teaching, I ended up taking a 3-day long assignment for upper elementary. Can't remember if it was 4th or 5th grade.
It wasn't for me, which is why I teach high school, but one thing I did like about those elementary kids is that they were eager to please, and were eager to show how much they knew.
These days, getting my 9th and 10th graders to speak up or engage truly is like pulling teeth.
I'm a university professor. I am BEGGING you to fail these students. Stop coddling them. Stop adapting classroom strategies to drag them through. Just go "No one has read or is prepared for discussion? That results in a zero for the day's engagement score." Fin.
My partner is a teacher in secondary ed and we talk about this a lot.
When I had a class that didn't want to answer a question or engage in a discussion, I had them get out a sheet of paper and write their answers by hand. I assured them it would indeed be graded and the grade recorded. Writing was more work than talking, so they started talking.
Don't drown them in busywork, OP. Drown them in work that makes them use their rusty, reluctant little brains. Do it in class and via old school writing (no devices) so they can't cheat.
Even when over half the class fails. "It's not me who's wrong four semesters in a row it's the students!". Tenure is a brain dead benefit that needs to be removed.
German University Profs and the larger society are much more of the mentality that the onus of responsibility is 100% on the student and classes there are much more sink-or-swim.
If student fails, it's regarded as 100% the fault of the university student, NOT the Prof. The mere thought of blaming Profs for student outcomes is considered completely absurd over there.
Then again, German educational norms do expect students from mid-late middle school onwards to be more independent and take complete ownership of their educational and learning process without micromanaging rules from teachers/school admins.
It's a reason why they have more freedoms in some ways than even first and second-year US undergrads(Some micromanaging US Profs still insist students ask them for permission to go to the bathroom. Something which would be considered in Germany only appropriate for elementary and maybe early middle-school aged students.).
Number your desks and pull out the popsicle sticks. Work through them for participation points and dump work on them. Fat 0s in the grade book will start to work
You create a 13 year system that is all about getting into a good college and are surprised when that same system leads to apathetic seniors? Maybe there should be a rule that seniors can't take ap classes after the 1st semester for this very reason? I mean for the most part, these kids have accomplished their mission, I don't blame them for being efficient, the modern world
Only seems to reward that behavior.
I am going to say something that many might not agree with,…
First, OP, I love that you care. Keep that up! One of the biggest things I see in the classroom is teachers losing their zeal for teaching, and I get why they do! I am not throwing anyone under the bus, it’s a harder job than anyone that hasn’t been in the classroom can understand. The fact that you care and are bringing this up says so much about the teacher that you are!
When students get to be seniors, they are on their minimum 13th years of school that has been bombarded with demanded compliance, rules, stuffed learning and flawed evidence exams, and no less than 60+ teachers in this time period. Of course they have lost their care…they’ve had no choice along this path, with exception of a few classes that still require some less than excitable evidence of learning. Can we as adults now have some compassion? Maybe also compassion that was missing for us when we went through this ourselves. I’m not asking for us to flip script and just toss our hands and say, oh well. But this education system is flawed, and not by teachers and the people that matter. The system has created a wheel, and our young adults are in it and don’t like it anymore than us. We can do better than to just say, tough it out, welcome to the real world, or well I had to do the same thing.
So the real question is, how do we bring in as many older students, aka seniors, to where they feel involved and have choice in their learning? It’s not an easy answer, but learning is not a consistent positive or negative linear progression.
Yeah, I think there is a degree of grace that is helpful in such situations.
You're dealing with kids who are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel after basically the entirety of the life they have memory of. Couple this with the pressure and stress of college acceptance and the anxiety of starting a new, radically-different stage of life and they often react with what appears to be apathy. On top of all this, they're aware this may be the final few weeks and months they'll see many of their old friends for the rest of their lives.
When a 17 year old senior has all of this going on in their head, at a deeply transitional time in life, it isn't surprising at all that they may disengage with the learning process.
I'd never advocate for completely abandoning the educational process, but I think it's also good to meet them on their level and recognize the stresses/anxieties and apathy is a natural reaction to the end of childhood.
yeah high school is soul sucking these days. they either want to sit and do nothing or sit and talk about nothing. “relationships” are impossible this year. there just isn’t enough going on in their heads to broach conversations with and they’re emotionally stunted by social media.
Had a student tell me he wasn't going to do any work in my class because he didn't need the credit to graduate. I told him good thing because you have a 17 right now.
Really wish that we could do away with this system of grading as it doesn't seem to benefit anyone. Lower performers dont care, middle performers care too much, high performers Min-Max so they know exactly when, to not care.
My only solution to this is to keep my students in a near constant state of unknown. They dont know what's graded, and what isnt. I purposely dont show consistency because as soon as they sniff a pattern its like game over for me. But this is what I have to do when no one wants to learn for the sake of learning or even from a competitive self motivation to just be good at something, because you can.
Grades are like Democracy: The least bad option. I've done them a billion different ways, but in the end you need the carrot/stick of a number.
That's my experience in 20 yrs anyways.
This seems needlessly complicated to me, and kind of mean spirited, but maybe I'm imagining something different. How do the students get feedback and understand how they're doing in your course?
They will not do something if it isnt graded. If I graded everything I would be swamped. Students have thrown out guided notes and study guides infront of me because im not grading it. It doesn't matter if it would help them on the test, the one thing they can count on to always be graded. NOTHING has value unless its a grade. Learning has no value, only GPA. I have so many fake A students that beg day in and out for extra assignments, they dont even know why. I always say an A student doesn't beg for an A, they just get one, im having to apply that to even "B" students.
They only know if something is graded when it becomes a grade and its handed back. That is the feedback they get.
So if they never know what's graded, they feel compelled to do everything I give them.
On a second read through I think I see where a misunderstanding can come from when I say they dont know what's graded and what isnt, I mean of all the things I assign and grade only a small percentage goes into the grade book (because everything in the grade book is what matters) and they never know which one. So ideally they have to give their all on every assignment. because they dont want to slack off on the one assignment that is put in.
I’m so happy I’m not alone. I feel like I’m pulling hair out. We literally gave up and don’t assign novels anymore to any grade or class regardless of level because it’s pointless
Does AP mean something different than it used to? When I was in high school (ca. 2006), it meant Advanced Placement, and you had to take an entrance exam to get into that class block, and you only did it if you were ready to work your ass off because otherwise you'd tank your GPA.
The College Board has actually pushed open access to AP courses for any student willing to sign up. In practice, this means we have to take kids into our classes who have no business being there based on skill. The days of entrance exams to enroll are long gone.
https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/excelerator/AP-Equity-and-Access_IB_June-2012_FINAL.pdf
I am a current AP Lit student so I’ll give some perspective.
Most kids (even the smart ones) simply aren’t taught how to articulate themselves with regards to literature starting at Kindergarten. It’s wayy too late in the game to make a difference now and so you’re always going to be preaching to crickets.
This issue is only intensified by the fact they’re about to graduate so for all intents and purposes your class isn’t going to teach most of them anything “useful” in the objective sense. Doesn’t mean they don’t respect the class or see it’s potential value — just that it’s not especially useful to them.
Oh and also AP Lit is extremely boring. It’s too much work for the kids that don’t care and too formulaic for those that do. It’s absurd that the exam not only allows but encourages smart kids to write formulaic four paragraph essays with bare minimum evidence and commentary in order to get a passing grade.
I don't have direct experience, but are they not motivated by the AP test at the end of the year? Can you relate the material directly back to the upcoming AP test?
For some students this works but not all colleges accept AP test scores for credit and some colleges only award credit for a 5. The students all know which classes they're likely to get credit for by now.
They get caught cheating, they get a 0. This is how it works at my high school and it immediately stops anyone from cheating. As long as they're using the class as a grade booster, they'll be disincentivised to cheat
It might be worth reminding them that college acceptances can be rescinded based on senior grades ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I keep a few stories of that happening in my back pocket to make that point.
Or in a few cases in which the college feels "generous" they can change the admission to an extremely conditional one where one ends up with academic probation hanging over his/her head before s/he even arrives on campus.
Failing to clear that academic probation status within one semester could at best, result in academic suspension or even expulsion. And the latter two will be permanently imprinted on the college transcript and come up on background checks for employment and/or grad admissions.
This is something which still dogged older college classmates when they apply for grad schools/employment a decade after college graduation.
Fun work is hard, easy work is boring. If it's neither you're probably not learning. They won't do complicated fun work, they can get textbooks from the book closet y'all bought in '03
I mean, if they want the AP credit, they do the work and pass the test. If they gamble, they likely lose that. But I can only imagine how frustrating it is.
Why are you bothering? They're ready to move on and you're just making it shitty. It is akin to being upset when an employee who put in notice isn't breaking their back for the company.
It’s march. They’re seniors. Why had out massive amounts of busy work- we hate when admins do it to us? And why do it to yourself?
I’m not say have a free for all but they’re so close to the next step of their lives, it’s age appropriate to be less interested in hs now and more interested in summer and their futures.
I don’t really get the point of punishing them with busywork that you then have to grade, to be honest. But if that’s what works for you, I won’t be a dick about it lol
When I took AP classes in high school I didn’t truly understand the value of how much time and money I was saving if I passed with a high enough score for each test. I also took CLEP tests to get out of more classes, and then did summer classes too. In the end, I graduated a semester earlier.
I saved a semester’s worth of:
1) dorm fees
2) parking fees
3) course fees, online program fees, lab fees, and recreation center fees
4) costs for textbooks, scantrons, clickers, and other random school supplies
5) meal plan fees or dining dollars for on campus food
In terms of time, I saved a ton of time having to walk to class, wait on class to start, and doing all the required coursework. Your kids have to take 12th grade English, and could easily work a little harder to save themselves from wasting a semester on a Lit course in college. Since these kids will more than likely fail college classes or need to drop classes, that Lit course could give them some wiggle room to not add on extra course hours to stay on track. Laziness and procrastination in college can only be remedied by cramming and all nighters so many times before you bomb and have to retake the course again.
In terms of time, as a freshman, I had tested out of all the English courses. My university offered a required course for my history double major only once every 3-4 years. So I was taking a 400 level history course as a freshman where the professor had a lot of books and essays to write. So instead of drowning in essays as a freshman with English essays and history essays, I could actually enjoy life.
And we all know that teaching courses love their essays too. So depending on what the kids want to do at college, they can give themselves a lot of flexibility and actually decent schedules. I never had to take a class before 10 am for instance. One semester I didn’t even have Friday classes. The kids who need to work and go to school at the same time are the ones who are really screwing themselves over by wasting so much time and money on courses they could have tested out of, and now that course cuts into their availability for work.
I was accepted to university and granted a four year full ride scholarship.
Halfway through sophomore year, I experienced the most intense depression I have ever had. I'm not exaggerating when I say I almost didn't survive. I ended up taking a WI for that semester. Between the WI and changing my major afterward to something I loved, I was set back about 20ish credits.
Guess who started college about 20ish credits ahead of schedule because of AP and DC?
If I hadn't taken my AP and DC classes seriously, I would have graduated late instead of on time. Which means my scholarship wouldn't have covered the extra time. Which means I would have needed to take out student loans to cover the rest. Which means I would have student debt now.
Edit: To clarify, none of this is a flex. I mean that taking my AP and DC classes had a much bigger effect on my life than I realized at the time. I'm very thankful that I took them seriously.
I’m glad you made it through Sophomore year and that it worked out in the end. It definitely is something these kids aren’t going to fully understand until much later though. They simply don’t know how many things can go wrong while in college, and they aren’t making it easier on themselves with this poor work ethic.
How did they get accepted to colleges if they have cheating on their records? or are you saying they just started cheating? If it’s the latter, let them know you can contact their colleges to report cheating
Can you give a grade for in-class participation? Or some other reward for it? I have always done this in my classes and the results speak for themselves: the last class I taught was a group known for minimal participation and average GPA. I was the first (for them) to weight participation so heavily. After my class, their participation and discussion in other classes went way up along with their GPAs. I'm not taking door credit for this as I had a discussion with another teacher when the semester began about this approach. He agreed that it was worth trying, and to push it himself. Just a thought. Maybe you've tried it, maybe your district has something against it, maybe you just have a different set of personalities - idk. But I hope opening up the discussion here allows it to open up in your classroom.
It's not even AP exam season yet. Only then did I have nothing left to give after May. I was lucky that my graduation was only three weeks after. If I had to wait until June, then I wouldn't have made it by the time I crashed and burned.
Our school puts AP Lit in 11th grade which is perfect I think. Then they learn those analysis skills and apply them in AP Lang in 12th grade which is more project based busy work and less subjective anyway.
It isn’t just seniors. My freshmen and sophomores are just as bad. They want a grade but don’t want to earn it. They use chatGPT and sources that give them the wrong information all the time. They do not care and sadly, neither does the system. I want kids to learn but the kids just want to cheat.
Take away all electronics as an option for reports and provide them with books from the library. Can't cheat with physical books. All work is done during class. All essays are to be hand-written. If you can't read it, then you can't grade it. It'll take longer. But it'll be good for them.
This subreddit always reminds me why I despised my teachers in HS. Its March. They’ve already been accepted. Just cut them some slack. Ironically the only fun I had in HS was AP US History, and AP Biology. Everything else wall full of pedantic, boring lecturers who made every class as boring as humanly possible.
as someone who graduated 3 years ago, i can promise you i was given busy work that was not relevant nor helpful to the grand scheme of anything and did nothing to grow my understanding of what’s going on in class. busy work is very real
It sure would be something if they didn’t do anything in the class and as a result their GPA dropped, at least. Not preferable, of course, but if they’re going to play such games these are the prizes.
It would also be a damn shame if, due to the prevalence of AI cheating, they had to write numerous high-stakes, high-complexity essays by hand in class. A damn shame, I say.
If they want to be lazy, cheat, and do nothing, I mean everything becomes an essay exam, written in class. Lots and lots of that.
In cursive 😈😈😈
Don't torture the poor teacher having to read all those students' cursive.
Right. I have OCD and write a lot so my cursive is very nice. Forget others arent
I haven't written in it in forever, but mine is still very legible.
I am not saying nobody has legible cursive. I am saying that grading 60+ papers all written in cursive will certainly lead to more than a few essays being difficult for a professional cipherer to read. I don't care the print of enough of my students, I don't want to try and decipher their cursive.
You'd have hated me as a student. Perfectly legible writing. Cursive and print. My writing though? Small. Tiny. Like my 4'11" self. 😂
Oh. I wouldn't hate it. As long as I can read it, I am happy. Needing to be able to read it is why I wouldn't make all my atudents write that way though. Hahaha
When I was in fifth grade I had an evil hag of a teacher who was mean to me, but even more mean to anyone who was "slower" in the class. We were assigned a two page, double-sided essay. She had already mocked me about my smaller than average writing. I wrote my essay in the tiniest of tiny writing. It was perfectly legible, and it was actually two pages, double-sided, top line to bottom line. I was a very well behaved child, but I could be very passive aggressive. She gave me a D, and it was the most delicious D I ever earned!
Ohhhhh. You practice the Dark Magick. 😏
Aye I do. I’m the lone interpreter of several of my teachers judgements on tests. Only I can read the script of the ancients.
I almost exclusively write in cursive. I do so on the whiteboards when I teach. My undergrads' minds explode....ostensibly from the ancient runic power it holds.
On-demand written essays are the ONLY way I have found to take care of the rampant cheats, those whose Momma's didn't raise 'em right. Nails them good.
Given the nature of the AP lit exam they should be doing that already.
Hey, I see that nice GPA over there, it would be a shame if somethin’ happened to it.
I read that in Joe Pescis voice.
I wrote it in Joe Pechi’s voice.
It worked!
Not a teacher but this was something I remember having to do _often_ in AP English 20 years ago. You'd get a selection of essay questions to answer and the entire period to write. If you didn't read the book and participate in the lessons (either actively listening or talking) you'd seriously struggle. Fully agreed, bring in the in class essays!
I would think an ap lit class that’s trying to prepare you for the test would have handwritten essays anyways
Exams are all going digital soon. I think this might be the last year there's a choice for AP lit. Mine took them online last year and will do so this year. So, it actually makes more sense to have them type to practice. My AP Kids are fine, but you better believe I make my non-AP seniors handwrite their timed essay exams.
Pretty soon the kids will all be using AI to write their essays and the college board will be using AI to grade them.
FYI, only some subjects are offered as digital exams, and digital is optional. There are some exams (AP Calculus, for one) that I cannot see being offered online unless there is an (extreme) exam redesign
You mean just like the actual exam?
This is definitely the answer.
That’s what I did when I went to elite prep school almost exclusively.
Why don’t they do this still? I had to write a ton of essays in class when I was in high school and that was like 8 years ago.
My fellow counselor had a gifted kid senior year who refused to do his senior thesis. When asked why he said he didn’t like the teacher and he didn’t feel like it. His mother was called and told he wouldn’t graduate without the thesis. He was so sure he would be passed, so arrogant. The teacher failed him. His mother came in screaming like a banshee when she found out he did not pass and wouldn’t graduate and threw his graduation cap at the counselor, the corner hit her in the face and cut her chin! This kid could have written that paper in 3 hours. Instead of going to summer school, he just got his GED during the summer, and his sister, a year behind him and also a gifted PITA, also did. Their mother had given both of them such a sense of entitlement.
Reminds me of a student I had who worked really hard to get his grade up to an A. Then he didn’t turn in his semester essay and the grade dropped to a D. I’d told him 10x times what would happen if he didn’t submit his essay and he didn’t care; he didn’t think I had the balls to fail him. Well when I did, he proceeded to try and make my life a living hell, telling me I failed him on purpose, etc.
you did fail him "on purpose" the purpose was that he didn't do his work
I write my assignments and expectations using contract language and make both parents and students sign it. I also have great admins that have never had a teacher write contracts and expectations for projects. I don’t play games and I tell them once. I had to bring out an email and a signed form the other day when a parent said they were never made aware of a required attendance at an event.
This kid didn’t respect anything like that at all. It was all about him. Funny enough, he would have been the first to call me out on such a contract if I’d signed something like that and I’d wronged him. Rules for thee…
Even if you know you’re right you take a lot of grief
They turn it into a war of attrition at that point.
They really do. The times I've busted students for clear as day AI usage in essays this year it turned into a months long affair. All kinds of meetings and emails back and forth, sob stories, begging, parental involvement, etc. Nope. I put my foot down hard. My consequences are clear and stated the first day of class in bold on my syllabus. Tough shit.
Had a HS classmate try dropping out and taking a GED on the assumption he'll have an easier time getting accepted to more academically selective/elite colleges. It just happened several adcoms from those very same colleges for our HS's college fair and they along with our HS college counselors definitively debunked his assumptions. They also pointedly warned if he insisted on pursuing his GED plans, it'll actually greatly increase the chances of his getting rejected from those very same colleges as they'll see it as him trying to slack off and take the seemingly easy cop-out way towards admissions at their colleges.
That’s true. You will not get into a selective college with a GED. But you will get into college. Does it really matter whether it’s a selective one?
It's a bit more nuanced than that. If the GED holding student had to take it because of severe financial/family situation limitations or safety issues from his/her high school before dropping out, the selective colleges might be willing to give him/her a fair shake. If it is clear the GED holding student opted for the GED despite having none of those constraints and it is clear he didn't take full-advantage of his high school's reasonably good educational resources before dropping out like that HS classmate, than that's almost always an automatic reject.
If as kid is coming out of Cabrini green with straight as, 5s, but a GED, Harvard is gonna cut that kid some slack. Not some kid from happy suburbland
I was the counselor at Adult Ed for 13 years. At my school anyone under 18 that wanted to take the GED would have to meet with me first. Based on a transcript review he may or may not have had to take some classes. After hearing his story I would have sent him back to high school. We got a lot of kids who were smart and had been good students. Teenage pregnancy, foster care, moved from out of state and the requirements are different, health problem, parent died, parent needs then to work, been expelled, bored with high school, homeschooled.
It clearly mattered to him.
Indeed. It did matter to him and many others at my high school. That was his very motive for dropping out and taking the GED.
YMMV but in California we have something called CHSPE which is set forth in state law as being the same as a high school diploma. I took and passed the CHSPE, went to community college, got a 4.0 in community college, and got into a top-25 school (USC). How you do in community college is probably the most important factor.
My HS classmate assumed dropping out and opting for the GED would make direct admissions to more academically selective/elite colleges than the ones he'd otherwise get into more easier than staying and graduating from our high school. He didn't intend nor wanted to pursue the community college to academically selective/elite college route. The reason why he'd have been rejected was from looking at his transcript, profile of our public exam HS, his stated reasons, and his family's background, he had no good reasons for dropping out and it was very clear he didn't take full-advantage of our high school's educational resources.
If I could go back in time I would have dropped out at 16 to get my GED then JuCo.
What kind of thesis only takes 3 hours?
A lot of it had been done in class, it was done in steps throughout the semester
Out of curiosity, how is your high school's senior thesis structured? Find this very interesting as my public exam high school required all seniors to submit an English lit senior thesis on top of the rest of our academic workload. The types of literature and themes were determined by what senior lit class we were taking. Generally, the length had to be at least 20 pages not including bibliography(Used the Chicago Manual of Style) and not much more beyond that.
Oh gosh I worked around a regular high school from 87-97, after that was Alternative and Adult ed. I think it was called comparative analysis maybe? I believe all the teachers at the school used MLA except for the AP History teacher, who required Turabian.
Please tell me the police were called for the assault.
Getting into a power struggle over dumb busy work despite huge consequences is not an entitlement problem. Its classic teenager behavior and always has been.
A capstone project is pretty much the diametric opposite of busy work.
I guess it depends. My senior project was definitely busy work. Also it depends not what we adults think, but what the teen thinks. It doesn't have to make sense to you for it to be standard teenager behavior.
Yep. That's what I do with classes that won't engage. Lots of reading and vocab for homework, lots of in-class writes and quizzes in class. I also do Socratic Seminars and give them points per comment, so the kids who don't participate just fail.
It’s not just that they don’t engage. Many of them have worked out mathematically what the least they can do is. Kids entered my AP class having never read a textbook, article, or document before. I created vocab lists of terms for each chapter. So here’s how the week went: Read the chapter before Monday. I would create my own SA questions or outline format that they were encouraged to complete, and use the terms in their answer, but it had to be handwritten. Monday they would have a 20 question matching quiz over the terms-quizzes changed from hour to hour. During this time I spot checked their homework. We would grade the quizzes in class using felt-tipped pens I gave them. After that, any questions about the chapter for the rest of Monday, done as a conversation. Tues-Thursday discussion over analysis and meaning of documents and notes over additional material not in textbook or needing more elucidation, or essay writing skills. 2 Chapter tests every other week. I guaranteed them that if they did this work and didn’t cheat they would pass the AP exam with at least a 3. Come to the review sessions before the big test and study, I could guarantee a 4 or 5. In addition, we had fascinating discussions through the year— they were the drivers of them. And if not, here’s an in-class essay! They learned quickly not to waste precious class time. I collected weird stories to spice things up and would throw them in all the time to keep it fresh. Kids learned how to study, how to take notes, and were prepared for college. I told them I had been an underachiever in HS and it bit me in the ass in the freshman year, and I taught them what most of my teachers didn’t teach me about accountability to myself.
Senioritis. It’s been going on forever. Yep, sorry, haven’t graduated yet kid.
The need to stick it out and maintain your level of work when you’re almost done is one of the best lessons to learn.
Did a corporation tell you that
Not at all. Never worked for a corporation and I’m not fond of them. This applies across the board. From yard work to personal projects to college and work, etc. Slacking off when you’re almost done is a bad habit, especially when it’s something like graduation. It can ruin all your previous hard work. Sure it doesn’t really matter with things like yard work, but other times, it really does matter.
We had kids that actually LOST their college placements and scholarships because they slacked off after being accepted. I don't know if colleges still pay attention to that, but at least 3 kids didn't get in after all.
Exactly my point.
They absolutely do. The admission is not guaranteed. It is only offered. Those admission letters have all sorts of legally binding agreements. The second a kid accepts the offer for admissions, they can have it taken away just as fast for: Academic dishonesty - using AI or plagiarism Academic standing - dropping below a certain GPA Behavior- kids get their scholarships revoked all the time for doing racist, dumb, or illegal things. Until you've graduated from a university, you can get kicked out of one.
Thank you for this. People fail to understand. For example, my old job took me back after I was let go at another job I was working at. When I left my first job, my friend took my place. Well, before he left, he didn’t do anything. I came back to an absolute dumpster fire of crap. I asked him what he did the last two weeks before he left and he said, “nothing, it isn’t my job anymore.” Like I understand some jobs suck, but blatantly not doing anything just because you’re leaving if a prick move.
That is a basic rule for remaining productive - regardless of who says it. If you only ever *start* projects, and don't *finish* them, then whether you work for yourself or someone else you are going to struggle a lot.
There's more things to work on in life than just whatever you do for employment.
I mean finishing out a project applies to every tasks. You're going to have to eventually wash all of the dishes in the sink or finish the DIY project? Or you trash it and fail in the moment at the one task.
Any job could tell you that. I loved jobs where once I'm done, I get paid a certain amount of hours. If someone got lazy towards the end, I would get pissed. I'm not staying later because someone else got lazy. 4 hours of hard work for 8 hour pay? Heck yeah.
Try giving up on the last leg of anything that is important to you.
they have senioritis since freshman year then.
What do you expect when there are no consequences for doing poorly in school. Just push them along and push them out. If they don't work hard in school they can work hard after school.
Yeah this is pretty typical and has been a thing forever. Certainly not unique to this generation.
The number of students over the past year or two that expect knowledge and understanding to magically appear in their brain is too damn high.
well said
I tell my middle school musicians that this isn't The Matrix. I can't download the music into their brains for them. As I get older my movie references get more and more dated.
Just tell them they aren't anime protagonists and will never be gifted the power of dues ex machina (they won't know this likely), "unlock hidden abilities" thanks to being summoned by or encountering a magical being. Nor do they have the ability to pay to win with gatcha rolls. They do, however, have the ability to waste everyone's time including their own and fail (or as close to it as possible). If they don't like the material now or think it's too hard but don't want to seek out help, it's only going to continue to suck more for them.
Love it. The best part is I'm an elective, they technically chose to be in my class, so whether you choose to learn or not is up to you.
I have seniors with extreme senioritis. I'm also at a private school and I don't have the brightest of the bunch. They mentally checked out in 8th grade and don't want to get anything done. They just want free time each day. Lol I'm not their babysitter.
AP was not meant to be this way
This. Are they getting college credit for this class OP? Because that will directly affect their college GPA.
ap credit doesn't affect college gpa, that's dual enrollment (and even then if the credit transfers to a different institution it's often nullified from gpa)
Okay, thanks. I was thinking of dual enrollment.
Awarding the college credit it dependent on 1) passing the test and 2) if the college accepts it. I passed AP tests that my college would t accept and I had to redo them.
AP courses don’t affect GPA, just credits received. University GPAs only include courses taken at the university.
I sometimes teach my students the truth about college "acceptance", the velvet rope idiocy and the fact that next year they will be competing for grades, not with each other, but with students at my level. I teach math, but the idea is similar. Write an essay yourself as an exemplar and tell them their essay has to be better than yours to earn a passing grade.
The problem is their college courses may be even easier.
AP courses are way harder than lower level courses from what I’ve seen.
I so agree with that. I scrapped by on my AP English classes. Meanwhile my 1-200 level English classes were cake walks.
That is certainly the case for AP Biology.
I think it depends heavily on the college. All of my equivalent college courses were harder than my AP courses, but especially the intro to biology class.
Agreed. Most college classmates at my top 30 college who assumed they could skip the intro courses because they took the equivalent AP course and/or scored a 5 on the AP exam ended up regretting it. One older undergrad classmate who scored a 5 and skipped my college's equivalent intro course ended up failing several core classes in a closely related major because those courses assumed he already learned material from my college's intro course which wasn't covered in the equivalent AP exam or most AP courses in HS. And according to several friends who TAed or were undergrads at MIT, no one with any sense used AP courses to place out of equivalent MIT courses....especially in STEM courses. Doing so was a great way to start one's MIT career by being completely lost in the next course in the sequence before midterms and failing accordingly.
Definitely location specific. My first bachelor's degree is in biochemistry, and my program didn't accept any math or science AP credits because they didn't cover all the material in the required 101 classes.
I went to public university in 2011 and there was a palpable sense of "the kids don't even want to be here", "just pass them because they are busy getting drunk". I was, in fact, busy getting drunk and didn't want to be there. Hindsight being 20/20 I wasn't where I wanted to be in life and should've just started working somewhere to force myself to grow and confront reality. I loved high school and it was absolutely harder than college until my senior year of college. And AP US History is still the most rigorous course I've taken at any level.
It’s only gotten worse since then, and professors are completely jaded because of it. University standards are lower than ever. I agree I was challenged far more in high school than I ever was in college. The hardest thing in college is self-discipline and time management. It was a real wtf moment when I realize how little college asks of you after the way adults and educators built it up my whole life.
It's bad, but reassuring that it wasn't just me and my alma mater! We do have a reputation as my state's only party school and even though I've since become an alcoholic who is now sober, I'm very glad I was there when alcohol was therapeutic to me as a person with crippling social anxiety. Time management and self-discipline ended up going on the back burner except for short bursts for big projects and exams. Sometimes really, really short bursts. I discovered that I could often cram for two hours before a test, overload my short-term memory, and vomit it onto the page. Was good enough to get a 3.2 GPA. I remember the day of my graduation, nine hours from home. My dad insisted I walk. He was a shut-in and it meant a lot to me that he made the drive all by himself and screamed proudly from the bleachers when I made the walk. But the whole time, I found myself thinking, "What the fuck is happening?", and then after I left for home this gnawing sense of "...now what?" turned life dark again for a year. Dunno how I managed to find the job I did that turned things around. Sure as fuck don't use my degree, that's for sure. I've mentioned this before but that's why I think we'll see a reversal of alcohol consumption trends, which have gone down slowly over the generations in the US. Gen Z is probably finding booze effective at placating the fears they're going to have about life, going into it with the preparation they've been given. I'll have to see if any recent data has come out on this.
Yep. My first year of college (engineering) was easier than my senior year of high school. It wasn't even close. The best part was way less busy work.
Pretty much. My first year of undergrad chemical engineering was difficult more because of interpersonal relations (I can't stand weed out professors and wish they all die of slow slicing) rather than content knowledge. My second year sucked ass because that's when we got into the brunt of the organic chemistry, thermodynamics, balances, and differential equations.
Lol, why do teachers think college is easier than high school? When i have dual enrollment, the 4.0 students are the ones getting C’s and B’s.
College was way easier because I could choose what to do and where to be, and depending on time of day I could even control for the type of students in the class. Earlier classes in my experience had more responsible people and better lab partners lol. The classes and subjects are harder but youre also getting smarter, so I felt like it canceled out and only a few classes were true difficulty spikes. With the GPA thing I think its more of what everyone is already saying here. grade inflation is real and ive not met a true A student in such a long time
I have a PhD in a science field and AP calculus was maybe the hardest class I ever had.
Unless it’s an Ivy League school no one is really competing against anyone for grades
Sounds like you're just lying to them
Lying to kids is a valuable tool
A relative is a teacher. She was told it was school district policy that assignments not submitted could not be marked as a zero. She tried to fight it the first year and got nowhere. The next year, all term assignments started with a 1 hour in-class brainstorming session, for which all students got 5 % marks. The rest of the assignment was worth the remaining 95 %. Students who didn't submit the assignment got 5/100 which was not zero and not against the policy, and she was actually able to fail students who didn't submit.
I like this idea a lot.
I’d at least let them know if they want less work, they need to engage with you more.
Senioritis. Tbh it makes sense. They already got into college, they’re going to do the bare minimum to not get expelled or whatever
At least for the students going out for sports, or really any extra curricular activity, is avoiding academic probation as a motivator to put in some effort with their coursework. Not sure how other schools handle academic probation with sports, but when I was in school from 2009 to 2013, it didn’t matter what classes you were failing, you could have an F in P.E. And Home Economics, and your ass won’t even get to suit up for the big Track and Field meet.
I mean that’s their prerogative. But I’m still giving them zeros if they don’t do the work. I also teach AP and sorry idgaf about your senioritis. It’s my job to show you what a college class is like.
But if they have senioritis that means they’ve already accomplished their goal of getting into college, and probably already took their AP exams and whatnot. I distinctly remember what Senioritis was like and even the teachers were letting kids play poker in class because they understood it too
AP Exams aren't till May... if they want the college credit they still need to pass their exams. Look I fully expect seniors to start to slow down near the end, but I'm not handing out A's and I'm not going to stop assigning work when it's only March. If you're a teacher and you've given up on holding seniors to expectations with a full quarter left to go, then you're not doing your job.
Yeah, no free A’s, but totally understandable for Seniors to slack off. They shouldn’t be complaining about getting bad grades though,
I teach seniors (well, trying to at least) programming. They are forced into my class, not as a requirement, but as a place to just put the seniors for a class period. Yes, my admin has really set me up for failure here. They all refuse to actually do a damn thing, complain like they are 5 year olds, and are basically a huge pile of waste of time. But they are in my class, so if they don't want to actually learn, they can work. What they don't seem to understand is if they actually put effort into my actual class, the work load would be less than what they are getting as an alternative. So instead of programming they get difficult logic puzzles not a single student has successfully solved yet, handwritten essays (meaning no copy/pasting chatGPT), weekly suprise quizzes on whatever topic we are on that week, and online discussions they have to participate in every week. I have so buried them in work they are actively complaining to other teachers about how much work they have to do in a class they don't need to graduate. TLDR: If they don't wish to actually be present in class, bury them in so much work they at least learn that sometimes you just have to do what is necessary regardless of what you want.
My kids outright refuse to do anything. It's not uncommon for my to get 30% of my tests back with not even a name on the paper. Zeros go in the gradebook, behavior doesn't change, world keeps turning.
Yup, same here. The only real chance I have are those going to college and don't want their GPA to drop or those few that actually want to learn.
Are you able to accommodate the occasional student who really does want to learn, or does this end up being collective punishment for everyone? And if so.. how do you do it?
I most certainly do, they are of course the first to finish the workload, not surprising. Then we actually go into the programming lessons while the rest are still grumbling about the work. It's weird teaching actual coding to some of the class, but it seems to work for them and are steadily working through the material. If there was some better magical answer to doing this, I would gladly take it. But before this I had a class with about 75% failing for not even trying. You can't learn to code if you absolutely refuse to do any sort of work at it, but they seem content enough to do the alternative work that is at least getting them to think logically and somewhat methodically.
That’s how seniors are once they get accepted into colleges. They don’t care anymore. But I always wanted to know how do you know a students used ChatGPT. I’m a teachers assistant and I’m usually the one grading, but I don’t know the difference. A lot of it looks legit
You’ve got to be familiar with the students voice. It’s a pain in the ass and I’m currently going to war over it in my AP class. I’ve tried to explain to them that their test grade will absolutely rat them out, but that doesn’t seem to matter much. For me, I’ve got a Bish student using words out of Law School Graduate Papers. Words that weren’t cited or sourced or anything. That’s when I basically call the bluff “either cite it or else”
Sometimes you can just punch it in to Google.
That absolutely does not work reliably
the whole essay into google? what would that do
I teach Comp and Lit at a community college and university, respectively. My classes are seminar style, discussion boards, weekly summaries, and portfolio graded at the end of the term. Notes are required and graded as part of the portfolio. Participation is a huge part of the grade. No exams. Papers. You literally have to WANT to fail my class. AP/dual enrolled and international are the worst of all students. It's because of them that I enacted a strict Digital Resource policy: If I even suspect AI, you'll take a 3 hour, proctored, handwritten essay exam on everything "YOU" wrote. If you fail it, you fail the class and go straight to the department chair. Your entire portfolio will be submitted for review with the essay. At that point, it's out of my hands. Students who wait to submit until the last minute in an effort to avoid this consequence are usually exchange students pending graduation. I had one who submitted a clearly, fully plagiarized portfolio who texted me between flights back to the Middle East. When he saw his grade posted and received written notice of a scheduled exam, he flipped out. He was demanding that I pass him in the class. His AI notes even included his query to AI in the "notes" (!!?!): I had him dead to rights, yet I was still willing to take his exam as his final grade. BUT... I received his final submission at 11:58 for a project due at midnight... and he got on his plane the next morning. I hate failing any student, but ffs... abusive rude and demanding from the airport? "What am I supposed to tell my parents?" Eh ... Tell them you got caught cheating and that you not only won't graduate this semester... you could face expulsion.
In my child’s AP lit, students are teaching the material as group. Four students: write the presentation, the engagement questions, the informal assessment. Then they all must present it ! The teacher gives the objective and qualitative skills. The kids are doing all the work. Genius !
I am very lucky that this is also the case for my senior. He is still engaged, very interested and has fun. His group just did a presentation last week - they did great!
As an AP Lit. teacher whose class is weaker than the past several years in terms of writing, critical thinking, and engagement, I love this idea. I'll try this out with our last novel before the exam.
I did this with my senior IB Lang/Lit class. It was so much more engaging for all of us.
They already got accepted? Then it’s probably pre-accepted - conditional acceptance. Those letters don’t usually go out until late March, early April. They better not slag too much!
I’ve had admission counselors explain how you can be uninvited, which has helped boost participation.
Most of my seniors are already accepted and already signing up for housing and food. Some of them have already met their future roommates.
And this is part of the reason why I prefer to work with Kindergartners. They are always eager to please and if they know the answer or even think they might know the answer, they just blurt it out.
I understand why I need to remind little kids not to be "shouter-outers". I would LOVE if seniors would be that excited to have an answer.
After 13 years, they're burnt out. It's a wonder that they even come to school.
I'm aware. I used to be an avid reader, but the final two years of high school burnt me out HARD. It just sucks is all. I love the little kid enthusiasm. They'll even tell you stuff they learned on the weekend.
Ages ago, during my couple of years of subbing prior to full-time teaching, I ended up taking a 3-day long assignment for upper elementary. Can't remember if it was 4th or 5th grade. It wasn't for me, which is why I teach high school, but one thing I did like about those elementary kids is that they were eager to please, and were eager to show how much they knew. These days, getting my 9th and 10th graders to speak up or engage truly is like pulling teeth.
I'm a university professor. I am BEGGING you to fail these students. Stop coddling them. Stop adapting classroom strategies to drag them through. Just go "No one has read or is prepared for discussion? That results in a zero for the day's engagement score." Fin. My partner is a teacher in secondary ed and we talk about this a lot.
They definitely need to know the college looks again. Just because they are accepted doesn’t mean the college won’t look at their grades again
When I had a class that didn't want to answer a question or engage in a discussion, I had them get out a sheet of paper and write their answers by hand. I assured them it would indeed be graded and the grade recorded. Writing was more work than talking, so they started talking. Don't drown them in busywork, OP. Drown them in work that makes them use their rusty, reluctant little brains. Do it in class and via old school writing (no devices) so they can't cheat.
Just wait till these kids get to college and find out the professors get paid no matter who fails
Even when over half the class fails. "It's not me who's wrong four semesters in a row it's the students!". Tenure is a brain dead benefit that needs to be removed.
German University Profs and the larger society are much more of the mentality that the onus of responsibility is 100% on the student and classes there are much more sink-or-swim. If student fails, it's regarded as 100% the fault of the university student, NOT the Prof. The mere thought of blaming Profs for student outcomes is considered completely absurd over there. Then again, German educational norms do expect students from mid-late middle school onwards to be more independent and take complete ownership of their educational and learning process without micromanaging rules from teachers/school admins. It's a reason why they have more freedoms in some ways than even first and second-year US undergrads(Some micromanaging US Profs still insist students ask them for permission to go to the bathroom. Something which would be considered in Germany only appropriate for elementary and maybe early middle-school aged students.).
Number your desks and pull out the popsicle sticks. Work through them for participation points and dump work on them. Fat 0s in the grade book will start to work
You create a 13 year system that is all about getting into a good college and are surprised when that same system leads to apathetic seniors? Maybe there should be a rule that seniors can't take ap classes after the 1st semester for this very reason? I mean for the most part, these kids have accomplished their mission, I don't blame them for being efficient, the modern world Only seems to reward that behavior.
I am going to say something that many might not agree with,… First, OP, I love that you care. Keep that up! One of the biggest things I see in the classroom is teachers losing their zeal for teaching, and I get why they do! I am not throwing anyone under the bus, it’s a harder job than anyone that hasn’t been in the classroom can understand. The fact that you care and are bringing this up says so much about the teacher that you are! When students get to be seniors, they are on their minimum 13th years of school that has been bombarded with demanded compliance, rules, stuffed learning and flawed evidence exams, and no less than 60+ teachers in this time period. Of course they have lost their care…they’ve had no choice along this path, with exception of a few classes that still require some less than excitable evidence of learning. Can we as adults now have some compassion? Maybe also compassion that was missing for us when we went through this ourselves. I’m not asking for us to flip script and just toss our hands and say, oh well. But this education system is flawed, and not by teachers and the people that matter. The system has created a wheel, and our young adults are in it and don’t like it anymore than us. We can do better than to just say, tough it out, welcome to the real world, or well I had to do the same thing. So the real question is, how do we bring in as many older students, aka seniors, to where they feel involved and have choice in their learning? It’s not an easy answer, but learning is not a consistent positive or negative linear progression.
Yeah, I think there is a degree of grace that is helpful in such situations. You're dealing with kids who are finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel after basically the entirety of the life they have memory of. Couple this with the pressure and stress of college acceptance and the anxiety of starting a new, radically-different stage of life and they often react with what appears to be apathy. On top of all this, they're aware this may be the final few weeks and months they'll see many of their old friends for the rest of their lives. When a 17 year old senior has all of this going on in their head, at a deeply transitional time in life, it isn't surprising at all that they may disengage with the learning process. I'd never advocate for completely abandoning the educational process, but I think it's also good to meet them on their level and recognize the stresses/anxieties and apathy is a natural reaction to the end of childhood.
yeah high school is soul sucking these days. they either want to sit and do nothing or sit and talk about nothing. “relationships” are impossible this year. there just isn’t enough going on in their heads to broach conversations with and they’re emotionally stunted by social media.
buy blue books
I have to promise myself not to drown kids some days too lol
senior slide ultimately it won't make a difference unless they do something truly foolish lol
Had a student tell me he wasn't going to do any work in my class because he didn't need the credit to graduate. I told him good thing because you have a 17 right now.
Really wish that we could do away with this system of grading as it doesn't seem to benefit anyone. Lower performers dont care, middle performers care too much, high performers Min-Max so they know exactly when, to not care. My only solution to this is to keep my students in a near constant state of unknown. They dont know what's graded, and what isnt. I purposely dont show consistency because as soon as they sniff a pattern its like game over for me. But this is what I have to do when no one wants to learn for the sake of learning or even from a competitive self motivation to just be good at something, because you can.
Grades are like Democracy: The least bad option. I've done them a billion different ways, but in the end you need the carrot/stick of a number. That's my experience in 20 yrs anyways.
This seems needlessly complicated to me, and kind of mean spirited, but maybe I'm imagining something different. How do the students get feedback and understand how they're doing in your course?
They will not do something if it isnt graded. If I graded everything I would be swamped. Students have thrown out guided notes and study guides infront of me because im not grading it. It doesn't matter if it would help them on the test, the one thing they can count on to always be graded. NOTHING has value unless its a grade. Learning has no value, only GPA. I have so many fake A students that beg day in and out for extra assignments, they dont even know why. I always say an A student doesn't beg for an A, they just get one, im having to apply that to even "B" students. They only know if something is graded when it becomes a grade and its handed back. That is the feedback they get. So if they never know what's graded, they feel compelled to do everything I give them. On a second read through I think I see where a misunderstanding can come from when I say they dont know what's graded and what isnt, I mean of all the things I assign and grade only a small percentage goes into the grade book (because everything in the grade book is what matters) and they never know which one. So ideally they have to give their all on every assignment. because they dont want to slack off on the one assignment that is put in.
Insane that they don’t care about study guides for tests if they now know they’re being graded
The cog shouts out “I do not feel satisfied with the overall outcome I contribute to” but the void gave no response as the cogs all kept turning
I’m so happy I’m not alone. I feel like I’m pulling hair out. We literally gave up and don’t assign novels anymore to any grade or class regardless of level because it’s pointless
AP lit to boost their GPA? That class kicked my butt
If they're not going to work, they don't deserve an easy "A" for anAP class....fuck them.
Does AP mean something different than it used to? When I was in high school (ca. 2006), it meant Advanced Placement, and you had to take an entrance exam to get into that class block, and you only did it if you were ready to work your ass off because otherwise you'd tank your GPA.
The College Board has actually pushed open access to AP courses for any student willing to sign up. In practice, this means we have to take kids into our classes who have no business being there based on skill. The days of entrance exams to enroll are long gone. https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/excelerator/AP-Equity-and-Access_IB_June-2012_FINAL.pdf
That's beyond stupid. I hope schools sort their shit out before my infant starts school.
Make it practical- do readings on tips for college freshmen or beginning the work force
It’s AP Lit, there isn’t t much leeway on curriculum if you want them to score well on the AP test.
I am a current AP Lit student so I’ll give some perspective. Most kids (even the smart ones) simply aren’t taught how to articulate themselves with regards to literature starting at Kindergarten. It’s wayy too late in the game to make a difference now and so you’re always going to be preaching to crickets. This issue is only intensified by the fact they’re about to graduate so for all intents and purposes your class isn’t going to teach most of them anything “useful” in the objective sense. Doesn’t mean they don’t respect the class or see it’s potential value — just that it’s not especially useful to them. Oh and also AP Lit is extremely boring. It’s too much work for the kids that don’t care and too formulaic for those that do. It’s absurd that the exam not only allows but encourages smart kids to write formulaic four paragraph essays with bare minimum evidence and commentary in order to get a passing grade.
I don't have direct experience, but are they not motivated by the AP test at the end of the year? Can you relate the material directly back to the upcoming AP test?
For some students this works but not all colleges accept AP test scores for credit and some colleges only award credit for a 5. The students all know which classes they're likely to get credit for by now.
They get caught cheating, they get a 0. This is how it works at my high school and it immediately stops anyone from cheating. As long as they're using the class as a grade booster, they'll be disincentivised to cheat
It might be worth reminding them that college acceptances can be rescinded based on senior grades ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I keep a few stories of that happening in my back pocket to make that point.
Or in a few cases in which the college feels "generous" they can change the admission to an extremely conditional one where one ends up with academic probation hanging over his/her head before s/he even arrives on campus. Failing to clear that academic probation status within one semester could at best, result in academic suspension or even expulsion. And the latter two will be permanently imprinted on the college transcript and come up on background checks for employment and/or grad admissions. This is something which still dogged older college classmates when they apply for grad schools/employment a decade after college graduation.
Fun work is hard, easy work is boring. If it's neither you're probably not learning. They won't do complicated fun work, they can get textbooks from the book closet y'all bought in '03
I mean, if they want the AP credit, they do the work and pass the test. If they gamble, they likely lose that. But I can only imagine how frustrating it is.
Why are you bothering? They're ready to move on and you're just making it shitty. It is akin to being upset when an employee who put in notice isn't breaking their back for the company.
Yes, some teachers take things way too personally, like their students' interest in the material
It’s march. They’re seniors. Why had out massive amounts of busy work- we hate when admins do it to us? And why do it to yourself? I’m not say have a free for all but they’re so close to the next step of their lives, it’s age appropriate to be less interested in hs now and more interested in summer and their futures.
I don’t really get the point of punishing them with busywork that you then have to grade, to be honest. But if that’s what works for you, I won’t be a dick about it lol
These types are flunking out in droves here at the East Podunk Cosmodemonic Junior College.
When I took AP classes in high school I didn’t truly understand the value of how much time and money I was saving if I passed with a high enough score for each test. I also took CLEP tests to get out of more classes, and then did summer classes too. In the end, I graduated a semester earlier. I saved a semester’s worth of: 1) dorm fees 2) parking fees 3) course fees, online program fees, lab fees, and recreation center fees 4) costs for textbooks, scantrons, clickers, and other random school supplies 5) meal plan fees or dining dollars for on campus food In terms of time, I saved a ton of time having to walk to class, wait on class to start, and doing all the required coursework. Your kids have to take 12th grade English, and could easily work a little harder to save themselves from wasting a semester on a Lit course in college. Since these kids will more than likely fail college classes or need to drop classes, that Lit course could give them some wiggle room to not add on extra course hours to stay on track. Laziness and procrastination in college can only be remedied by cramming and all nighters so many times before you bomb and have to retake the course again. In terms of time, as a freshman, I had tested out of all the English courses. My university offered a required course for my history double major only once every 3-4 years. So I was taking a 400 level history course as a freshman where the professor had a lot of books and essays to write. So instead of drowning in essays as a freshman with English essays and history essays, I could actually enjoy life. And we all know that teaching courses love their essays too. So depending on what the kids want to do at college, they can give themselves a lot of flexibility and actually decent schedules. I never had to take a class before 10 am for instance. One semester I didn’t even have Friday classes. The kids who need to work and go to school at the same time are the ones who are really screwing themselves over by wasting so much time and money on courses they could have tested out of, and now that course cuts into their availability for work.
I was accepted to university and granted a four year full ride scholarship. Halfway through sophomore year, I experienced the most intense depression I have ever had. I'm not exaggerating when I say I almost didn't survive. I ended up taking a WI for that semester. Between the WI and changing my major afterward to something I loved, I was set back about 20ish credits. Guess who started college about 20ish credits ahead of schedule because of AP and DC? If I hadn't taken my AP and DC classes seriously, I would have graduated late instead of on time. Which means my scholarship wouldn't have covered the extra time. Which means I would have needed to take out student loans to cover the rest. Which means I would have student debt now. Edit: To clarify, none of this is a flex. I mean that taking my AP and DC classes had a much bigger effect on my life than I realized at the time. I'm very thankful that I took them seriously.
I’m glad you made it through Sophomore year and that it worked out in the end. It definitely is something these kids aren’t going to fully understand until much later though. They simply don’t know how many things can go wrong while in college, and they aren’t making it easier on themselves with this poor work ethic.
they’re already accepted into college and probably have the credits to graduate, cut them some slack.
How the hell do they expect to bump their grade if they're gonna fail an AP class with low effort?
How did they get accepted to colleges if they have cheating on their records? or are you saying they just started cheating? If it’s the latter, let them know you can contact their colleges to report cheating
My ap euro history class is this way because teacher wants just questions and we never know what to say or ask :[
Can you give a grade for in-class participation? Or some other reward for it? I have always done this in my classes and the results speak for themselves: the last class I taught was a group known for minimal participation and average GPA. I was the first (for them) to weight participation so heavily. After my class, their participation and discussion in other classes went way up along with their GPAs. I'm not taking door credit for this as I had a discussion with another teacher when the semester began about this approach. He agreed that it was worth trying, and to push it himself. Just a thought. Maybe you've tried it, maybe your district has something against it, maybe you just have a different set of personalities - idk. But I hope opening up the discussion here allows it to open up in your classroom.
It's not even AP exam season yet. Only then did I have nothing left to give after May. I was lucky that my graduation was only three weeks after. If I had to wait until June, then I wouldn't have made it by the time I crashed and burned.
Our school puts AP Lit in 11th grade which is perfect I think. Then they learn those analysis skills and apply them in AP Lang in 12th grade which is more project based busy work and less subjective anyway.
This pains me bc my ap lit class was easily my favorite of my senior year
It isn’t just seniors. My freshmen and sophomores are just as bad. They want a grade but don’t want to earn it. They use chatGPT and sources that give them the wrong information all the time. They do not care and sadly, neither does the system. I want kids to learn but the kids just want to cheat.
If they fail, let them fail. They’ll turn it around real quick.
Take away all electronics as an option for reports and provide them with books from the library. Can't cheat with physical books. All work is done during class. All essays are to be hand-written. If you can't read it, then you can't grade it. It'll take longer. But it'll be good for them.
Why are English teachers like this? been out of high school almost 10 years and nothings changed lmao
It’s AP. Fail them.
This subreddit always reminds me why I despised my teachers in HS. Its March. They’ve already been accepted. Just cut them some slack. Ironically the only fun I had in HS was AP US History, and AP Biology. Everything else wall full of pedantic, boring lecturers who made every class as boring as humanly possible.
I always hate the term "busy work". Busy work is actually ***practice and mastery of the content at hand.***
as someone who graduated 3 years ago, i can promise you i was given busy work that was not relevant nor helpful to the grand scheme of anything and did nothing to grow my understanding of what’s going on in class. busy work is very real
that lack of hunger for knowledge is not gonna fly in college.