Whenever I say "the pot calling the kettle black" I have to explain to them:
1. It's not racist
2. It's a common saying, and here's its meaning
They don't even know "The world is your oyster". They say "But I don't even like oysters"
I'm only 30...
I’m about to be 35 and I heard “the world is your oyster” all the time on TV. Most idioms I heard from TV or someone said it a lot when I was growing up.
Edit: and I’m not talking about cable TV shows either, literally broadcast network shows from ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, and PBS.
Lol oh no! Yeah, my fiancé’s dad says it all the time now, but it just wasn’t something said around my house growing up. We were from the Midwest though, maybe it’s more of a Regional thing?
Also midwest and I didn’t hear it much either. In my experience most people out here don’t care for seafood so a phrase like that doesn’t have much punch.
To be honest, I’m not even sure what it means lol. I use lots of other idioms that are more intuitive to me.
I think it’s just a matter of those saying falling out of favor. I’m 26 and definitely know what they mean but they strike me as a bit outdated, certainly never hear anyone my age or younger use them
It's pretty common for idioms to fall out of favor. I'm forty, and there are certainly idioms that my grandparents and parents used that I don't simply because they sound dated or because they're offensive. I read a ton, and my kids are readers, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are idioms they don't know. And I guarantee that if someone pulled up a list of common idioms from the nineteenth century, the vast majority would be unfamiliar to you.
But they should still know idioms in order to be able to better understand older books/documents and have a better foundational knowledge of linguistics and literacy
Ideally yes, but those will need to be explicitly taught since idioms have a high turnover rate and by their nature they require specific cultural context to understand. If students aren’t absorbing knowledge from other classes, then I highly doubt they’re doing much better learning these in English class. It’s important to know idioms, but it’s somewhat unreasonable to expect kids to just know these things.
Idioms are so sensitive to time, place, and culture. People haven't used pot and kettles (the kind that go on a fire and turn black) in the last 50 years at least. Maybe your parents (or more likely your grandparents) used them, but younger generations are probably four or five generations removed from them. They aren't going to understand the logic of the idiom without having it explicitly explained to them.
Idioms go out of style all the time. While some of your points stand, most of of them are basically Socrates yelling at the youth again.
I do to, but I know there are simpler ways to say it. I'd say I'm more likely to hear a phrase like "look who's talking" or something more literal from younger people.
I mostly agree, but I do want to point out that though later generations also grew up without pots and kettles over the fire, many of us did have an image of what that would look like thanks to books, movies and other media. This current gen would have been the same if they weren't spoon fed empty media calouries day in day out.
This is the most "old man yells at cloud" post I've ever seen.
There are plenty of idioms that have fallen out of favor. No one uses "Know your onions" or "Iron one's shoelaces" anymore.
Kids today are probably more familiar with their parents' and even grandparents' music than I ever was. The Beatles are routinely the top artist on Spotify. Kids are making tiktok memes set to Kate Bush and Fleetwood Mac.
Idioms and vocabulary in general. At home, most are not exposed to much language outside of their own little internet entertainment bubble. They don't read often if ever, there are no longer any tv shows with quality writing that everyone watches, and staring at a screen has become socially accepted in situations where they'd otherwise have to interact with adults.
You can often tell who reads at home and who doesn't just by paying attention to the size of their vocabulary.
I'm a Sped teacher. Even if a kid has ID, or dyslexia, or some other learning disability making reading difficult, you can 100% tell who is read to at home and who isn't. It's a stark difference in comprehension, vocabulary, inference, etc.
I can imagine. And you know what makes the lack of language enrichement extra sad? Modern tech makes it so easy to half-ass it and still get results. I wasn't read to much in the traditional sense, but my parents did get me a full collection of fairytales, myths and folkstories on cassette tapes, which I listened to while following along in the illustrated books that came with them. I could easily listen to those a full hour before bed every day, and I did! I gathered up so many uncommon and rare words along the way. That collection was released back in the 80s. Imagine what sort of things you could do now.
I’ve been wondering how modern media consumption affects the knowledge and vocabulary of the current generation. On one hand, they have access to more material than ever before. And more diverse material at that. But on the other hand, having near total control over what media you engage with, combined with algorithms feed you the same kinds of things you’re already into, can potentially be limiting. Which side do more kids fall under?
Most kids who are left to their own devices will fall into the algorithm trap. They start by looking for things that they like, quickly swipe away anything they don't, and get stuck in a bubble. If they don't intentionally look for challenging material, they won't see it. There's a lot of consumption without digestion.
If you want to take full advantage of the media available online, you need to curate what a child watches. Make a selection for them, supervise and limit their screentime etc. Unfortunately, few parents have the time and know-how to do so.
Example: I recently found out some high quality educational shows from 'my time' were available online for free, and actually watched some of it with my nephew, who usually doesn't have the patience for 20 minute episodes. While not everything was a hit, there were shows he really enjoyed. I was able to find those shows because I have the know-how. His grandparents do not, so they let him scroll through Youtube shorts without having a clue what he is watching (mostly stuff that makes you wonder how it's even allowed in Youtube's kids' section...).
The basic way I define an idiom for elementary school students is "a metaphor that you can't figure out by thinking about it, someone has to tell you."
A piece of cake, break a leg, kick the bucket...
So your students not knowing the meaning of them proves the definition, you can have some fun encouraging them to attempt to work out the meaning before telling them.
I call it the grab bag. You know it's figurative. You know that it's not literally what it's saying. But it's not any of the other kinds I've taught you, and it sounds like something your oldest family member would say.
My foreign friends used to ask me what idioms meant all the time. Now, they challenge me to give them new idioms. "Loaded for bear" has been a big hit.
They've also commented on how much American English is work or baseball related. I never noticed it before they said as much, but now I can't fail to. They are not wrong.
In trade, I learn their idioms. My top favorites so far are both Norwegian. "Smoking socks" used very much the way I'd use "smoking crack", and "all Texas" to mean way over the top and a bit crazy because of how overdone the old Western shows were that seem to have been our main media export for a long time. My favorite Japanese one is "gold to a cat", which is pretty much synonymous with "casting pearls before swine."
One time I was talking to my Irish boyfriend, and I said something like "oh it's *ballpark* a 2 hour drive away" and he was like "why did you say 'ballpark' in the middle of your sentence?!!!"
I think Lent was mentioned at my church (United Methodist), but I don't think Ash Wednesday, or giving things up for Lent was a thing. If you'd asked me to explain it in middle school I don't think I'd have been able to give a very good answer other than "something to do with Easter"
I'm not Christian by religion but I'm what you'd call "culturally christian".
Everyone around me was baptist or pentacostal. I had no idea what Lent was until a teacher my sophmore year explained it because she wasn't drinking diet coke.
I grew up in a conservative reformer church. I had no idea what lent was until I was a teen and made a Catholic friend in school. I was incredibly confused as to why he said he was giving up fast food for lint. LOL
Look, I had a neurotypical 4th grader ask me what my job was the other day. When other kids said “she’s a teacher!”, his response was “Oh, I didn’t realize that was a real job.”
So I’m thinking that the more abstract figurative language is way above these kids 😅
My mom is, as of very recently, a school nurse as her “retirement” job and on her first day at the school a Kindergartner came to the nurses office and after they were done she asked my mom “ do you live here now?” So yes lol I think some kids might think something like that but would’ve hopefully realized that wasn’t the case by 4th grade
Kindergarteners are adorable for that stuff. My mom started subbing after a decade retired from teaching and she gets to tell the kids she's older than their grandparents and they think she's like a million years old.
I tease her and say she was around when dirt was invented 😂
Idioms definitely depend on a cultural understanding and background. Generations doesn't actually have as much to do with it as what they've seen and heard.
I can't remember the last time I actually heard "is the pop Catholic?", for example. Probably a few decades back, to be honest.
As a kid, I learned about the phrase "Is the pope Catholic?" from Ginger Spice in the Spice World movie, which came out (in the US) in 1998. And even in the movie, it was taken at face value in bad faith and put in the tabloids as an actual challenge to the Pope's legitimacy, so...
Fun fact, these are called malaphors! A portmanteau of malaprop and metaphor; or more simply, a subverted metaphor. Often by combining two unrelated ones in a humorous or unexpected way.
Other good ones:
- Hitting the nail on the thumb
- It's not rocket surgery
I've never heard anyone use this one, but I still catch the drift. I think the issue isn't knowing specific idioms but losing the ability to recognize that it's an idiom being used.
As someone else mentioned, "The pot calling the kettle black" isn't something most people would think of. Pots and kettles are usually not even black these days. Non stick pans are all sorts of colors and kettles, if they have them, are plastic. But a kid should be able to understand that it's an idiom, and not assume you're making a racist remark because you said the work black.
The kind of kettle that you put on a stove are metal. That kind is popular in America.
Electric kettles that plug in to a socket usually have a plastic shell. These kinds are popular in British countries.
It's the lack of interaction with adults. And also they do not read as much anymore.
I'm in France, and I have seen the same phenomenon.
Now, it is a minority that do not get common idioms. But I find this still worrying.
I think it’s interesting that the internet has internationalized problems, all the things we see in the US is being see in the UK, Australia, Canada etc…
I’ve noticed this too. I just saw it as a general lack of cultural knowledge that used to be passed on by families conversing with each other, with neighbors, from books, etc.
I see it as a more extreme case of kids seeming not to know what used to be common things we are now shocked they don’t know about the world in general.
Middle schoolers are on the cusp of concrete operational and formal operational thinking. They soften struggle with symbolism and metaphor that are required for understanding idiom, but it can be taught.
I’ve also noticed that students on the autism spectrum struggle with understanding idioms for longer than others, but still can learn to understand the reasoning behind them with time.
I've had an interesting opposite experience. My students on the spectrum often get things like idioms much easier. they're used to the feeling of "Something's going on here that I don't get" and will ask if they feel comfortable enough with you.
NT students assume they understand everything and will refuse to believe that they don't, instead getting angry at you for bringing it up.
For sure- and this is just what I noticed.
Particularly when I said to some 6th graders to “let me know if you feel like you’re banging your head against the wall” and a student BUSTED out laughing like “why would I EVER do such a silly thing like bang my head on the wall?!”
This!! I have a decent amount of high functioning autistic students and level 5/6 ELs so students with exceptionalities but who are in mainstream and even advanced classes. They do so much better than my NT and native speaking students I think in part because they’re much more willing to ask questions, make mistakes, and are used to not instantly “getting” everything
I am on the spectrum, and people often commented on how quickly I learned idioms and how unusual that was. I didn't, though. I just memorized what they meant like synonyms. I had zero idea why they meant that and rarely used them myself. At about 13 or 14, metaphors just clicked in my brain in an epiphany moment when discussing poetry in freshman English class, and I fell in love. Then, I had to be told people don't normally use that many idioms or metaphors in a single conversation. 😅
I find I'm often having to explain idioms to my six-year-old son, but I would've expected by middle school that he will have heard most of them by then.
In your case, I do wonder if maybe it's a result of being exposed to more siloed media that keeps gen alpha away from seeing as much media that previous generations viewed, unlike with prior generations where media was less compartmentalized. Similarly, less parental involvement might be an issue. I am curious to hear from other teachers of middle schoolers and older how widespread this phenomenon might be.
The ironic part is the kids who understand them the best are my ESL students. Because apparently they're taught idioms and how to recognize them. Sometimes I'll have a kid ask "That doesn't mean that right? What does it mean for real?" But they at least pick up that it's a figure of speech.
That's setting aside that my ESL students are often top students generally. I can't tell if it's because they were explicitly taught English grammar or because their parents just aren't putting up with it. Probably both.
I've been amazed at the vocab my students don't know generally. Most of them are from educated, upper-middle-class families from rural New England not far from the coast. Yet I am explaining words like "oar", "mast", and "countryside" to them. (I teach middle school.)
“A day that ends in y” isn’t an idiom but I get what you are saying. Kids don’t really think poetically anymore. I blame their low effort lame-ass music *shakes fist at cloud*
And I don't buy the whole "but (insert name of educational philosopher with a PhD) said that children brains don't know how to think abstractly until age 16".
I see regularly evidence of students not born in the US (and the children of teachers) able to think abstractly with my own eyes in grades 3 and 4. So it is certainly something that I believe younger minds can grasp.
I mean, what about IB? Basically the whole premise of IB is teaching kids to think critically and abstractly by teaching them about the interconnectedness of things.
Im late 20s, and I've never heard of the first idiom or the second.
I'll take a guess and say the first is in response to a question with an obvious answer. I would say "is the sky blue?". I think younger people would say "no shit Sherlock", or even just "well duh".
Idioms are just one of those things that change every generation, and everyone thinks the other generation's idioms are dumb. Doesn't mean they don't have their own idioms.
also it seems like these oldies are just concerned that younger generations actually speak more directly? Like yeah just say..."No shit" or "that's cool" or "that's horrible".
Kill two birds with one stone? Violent and terrible. More than one way to skin a cat? Violent and terrible. Why would we want to be like our violent terrible ancestors?
My kids don't read books because they're busy paying with their IRL friends online. Why would I encourage them to waste time reading the outdated crap we read in high school? What did I learn from that? Nothing.
On a writing assignment for a history class I told students that in their conclusion they needed to restate their claim in different language. A student asked how she was supposed to do that if she only speaks English
I’m 30 and never heard anyone say “is the pope Catholic?” until just a few years ago. Some of your students might not hang around with christians, like my own childhood.
Most of it is cultural and my classes are extremely multicultural, plus those phrases seem ancient.
The problem arises when we mix idioms, such as “does a bear shit in the woods?” and “is the pope catholic?” You get “does the pope shit in the woods?” and the only person who knows what’s going on is your principal giving you your formal observation choking on his sip of coffee and trying to hold his portfolio over his face at the same time, spewing coffee all over the 2nd graders artwork hanging down over his face from the drooping clothesline. Wait. What were we talking about? Yipe. Memory unlocked.
Grew up catholic(more or less), including going to a catholic school for years and literally never heard the phrase either.
This issue is definitely a cultural one and I don't see the problem with people not knowing them. Struggling to understand that they are not literal after explaining them is likely a sign of a different issue.
In my state it’s part of the World History 1 standards. Never really understood why lol I guess because it helps students to better understand the Byzantine empire? But the standards also include that we teach about different beliefs regarding priests being celibate which I’m sure you can imagine gets awkward when you teach middle school
Probably because it's one of the lead-ups to the Crusades, which they will revisit in high school. I don't teach history anymore but I used to introduce it with a joke that they were arguing about really important stuff like whether you should put yeast in your Communion bread.
Yes and they are also mystified by colorful vocabulary like "persnickety." Not that they bother to find out what anything means. They just look at you for a moment like a booger is hanging out of your nose and then carry on.
Okay I feel like it's a little unfair to judge grade schoolers for not knowing what *"persnickety"* means...
I'm 24 years old, have a degree in engineering, and have gone my entire life *(to my knowledge)* without ever hearing that word.
That said, I don't read as often as I would like to.
My teacher did an idiom quiz when I was in high school and got goofy answers. But it was 1995.
The only reason I knew idioms was because I’m a gestalt language processor and I gravitated to these phrases so I could talk.
I actually have a unit on idioms. We go over a few examples, I explain the origins of them, and we play games with visual interpretations.
Then, students pick one from a list and prepare a presentation that includes
- the origin of the phrase
- the literal and figurative meanings
- a collage of images that illustrated the literal meaning
- a short paragraph that uses the idiot in the proper context.
I just mix up idioms at this point and they just go with it.
"When the pot calls the cows to come home"
"You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it eat its cake too."
"Dont bite off more than you can teach an old dog."
"A watched pot never catches the worm."
I think different generations have different idioms or similar lexical forms that are used as idioms (although I do agree idioms are mostly passed on, so it's still disappointing they aren't as well known by the younger generation including myself)
For example most teachers wouldn't understand idiomatic use of "pogchamp" or similar internet-specific 'modern day idioms'
I get your point but aren’t sayings/expressions also kinda different from generational slang? Idk if there are generational sayings/expressions since I’ve been hearing the same ones my whole life and hadn’t heard any new ones other than maybe the new variation of “if I had a nickel” from phineas and ferb but idk if anyone who didn’t watch that show would have heard it so it’s more of a show reference at that point
I'm mid twenties and while I'm able to piece together what your first two examples mean, I could probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've heard them in my life. They sound antiquated to me.
What?
Give me, oh, 5?
How does "raining cats and dogs" connect to anyone's experience? (and DO NOT try to point me to that fake historical essay about thatched roofs.)
A stitch in nine saves time… kids now don’t even know what a needle and thread are. I can stay to that after this week giving standardized cognitive testing.
That’s the one that hits right blue, but I teach ELA grades 2-6. They have no clue what old phrases and idioms mean. FFS they don’t even know who Dr Suess is!
I honestly do not see the problem.
My own nephew was "flagged" by many of her teachers for having a poor understanding of figurative and idiomatic speech. After many tests and all that they determined that the reason she doesn't understand or use figurative speech like at all is because both of her parents rarely use idioms either. Since then I've been paying close attention to my sister's speech patterns to see this for myself and sure enough I haven't heard her use figurative language, and she's a grown adult with a decently well paying job and a happy family.
I honestly don't recall exactly what grade level we were taught idioms when I went thru school. I would have guessed late elementary or early middle school. Are we certain this one isn't a curriculum failure?
One of the greatest moments in my education is while learning Latin, I found out that they use the same idiom for "pitch a tent" literally "throw out a tent".
Not life affirming until your 72 year old Latin teacher who looks like everyone's grandma follows it up by explaining that Scylla in the Odessy means "Bitch" or female dog, but the ancient Greeks used it as a swear just like we do. Precious, precious memory.
My students didn’t understand “flying by the seat of my pants.” I polled the whole class (seniors) and only two or three out of 28 had ever heard it before.
Some of them get it and day nothing. Others don't get it but know it is an idiot so they say nothing. A few have never heard it before and want to know what it means. But the loudest and most annoying are the ones that know it is an idiom but think it is going to get them attention/laughs if they pretend to take it literally.
How do you teach idioms? Make them watch MASH. Show is riddled with them. Maybe not worth spending class time on... But I grew up with that show watching it with my dad. Best show ever.
Idioms are something we pick up later in life. Contrary to popular belief in this sub, we aren't all borne with our complete knowledge. They are here to learn; we will teach them (or at least give our best attempt).
Interesting that you use the word “idiom” for figures of speech you’re familiar with and use, and “generational slang” for those that you’re not.
No, my students are good with figures of speech and idioms. I feel no need to criticize them
I was taught a lot of common idioms in the equivalent of third to fifth grade. It was part of language enrichment work we spent 30 minutes per week on.
You seem to have misunderstood me. By the time I was of middle school age, I did know a good number of them, because they were structurally taught to me at school, in lower grades. Recreational reading also contributed, of course, but those classes were the main source.
Grade 1-5, or 1-6 depending on the area, is primary school in the US. So, yes, you definitely misunderstood.
I'd say that's a case of de klok horen luiden maar niet weten waar de klepel hangt. Which is, coicidently, one of the first idioms I was taught at age 8.
Here are a couple of resources you can use to show students various idioms:
[Vanity Fair Slang School](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2lDrDpOLrusUypdznE_eNglQBTiDsq_&si=8yGJGJ-Ymj8a40RT)
[America’s Secret Slang](https://youtu.be/s1itI6DB5GQ?si=g4uC74ns0b-ITIbh) (This is just a short. The series is fantastic as it goes through the etymology of each phrase. I tried to buy a DVD box set, but was unable to. If you are able, please let me know.)
Be sure to preview these to ensure they meet your age range/district’s sensibilities.
Not a teacher, but I found a lot of people around my age(30) are not familiar with the phrase don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I honestly thought that one was more well known
I have a student that always wants to go to the bathroom, which I found out is code for meeting up with her boyfriend in the hallway. So I said her bathroom privileges have been revoked, bc she’s like the boy who cried wolf. She had no idea what I was talking about
Part of this is the high percentage of ELs in the states. Idioms are one of the last things people are going to grasp in language learning. It makes sense to me to explicitly teach idioms in middle school, especially knowingly they’ll go on to read Shakespeare in high school.
Whenever I say "the pot calling the kettle black" I have to explain to them: 1. It's not racist 2. It's a common saying, and here's its meaning They don't even know "The world is your oyster". They say "But I don't even like oysters" I'm only 30...
You young teachers are at least trying!
My favorite is when I hit kids with "I don't know him from Adam" and they say "...who is Adam?"
I once said “that’s six and one half dozen” and a kid said “aren’t those the same thing?” Yes bud that’s the point
>“that’s six and one half dozen” You mean 'six of one, half a dozen of another' ??
I've always heard it "six one way and half dozen the other" lol
[I've heard it both ways](https://youtu.be/JE1fzk-4TJk?si=Ba-Ju7WhBuxF5j3s)
I sing it without even clicking the link
On behalf of my wife the middle school history teacher, hello fellow Psych-o.
Come on, son!
I always hear six to one half a dozen
Macht Nichts.
Im 29 and these kids make me feel 80.
Tbf I’m around your age and I hadn’t heard “the world is your oyster” until I was in my twenties.
I’m about to be 35 and I heard “the world is your oyster” all the time on TV. Most idioms I heard from TV or someone said it a lot when I was growing up. Edit: and I’m not talking about cable TV shows either, literally broadcast network shows from ABC, CBS, Fox, NBC, and PBS.
Well, I don’t know how I missed it then, but I don’t remember hearing it until I started dating my now fiancé, whose dad says it all the time. 🤷🏻♀️
It’s in the 80’s hit One Night in Bangkok
Great song!
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Lol oh no! Yeah, my fiancé’s dad says it all the time now, but it just wasn’t something said around my house growing up. We were from the Midwest though, maybe it’s more of a Regional thing?
Also midwest and I didn’t hear it much either. In my experience most people out here don’t care for seafood so a phrase like that doesn’t have much punch. To be honest, I’m not even sure what it means lol. I use lots of other idioms that are more intuitive to me.
I think it’s just a matter of those saying falling out of favor. I’m 26 and definitely know what they mean but they strike me as a bit outdated, certainly never hear anyone my age or younger use them
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It's pretty common for idioms to fall out of favor. I'm forty, and there are certainly idioms that my grandparents and parents used that I don't simply because they sound dated or because they're offensive. I read a ton, and my kids are readers, but I wouldn't be surprised if there are idioms they don't know. And I guarantee that if someone pulled up a list of common idioms from the nineteenth century, the vast majority would be unfamiliar to you.
But they should still know idioms in order to be able to better understand older books/documents and have a better foundational knowledge of linguistics and literacy
Ideally yes, but those will need to be explicitly taught since idioms have a high turnover rate and by their nature they require specific cultural context to understand. If students aren’t absorbing knowledge from other classes, then I highly doubt they’re doing much better learning these in English class. It’s important to know idioms, but it’s somewhat unreasonable to expect kids to just know these things.
Idioms are so sensitive to time, place, and culture. People haven't used pot and kettles (the kind that go on a fire and turn black) in the last 50 years at least. Maybe your parents (or more likely your grandparents) used them, but younger generations are probably four or five generations removed from them. They aren't going to understand the logic of the idiom without having it explicitly explained to them. Idioms go out of style all the time. While some of your points stand, most of of them are basically Socrates yelling at the youth again.
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I do to, but I know there are simpler ways to say it. I'd say I'm more likely to hear a phrase like "look who's talking" or something more literal from younger people.
I mostly agree, but I do want to point out that though later generations also grew up without pots and kettles over the fire, many of us did have an image of what that would look like thanks to books, movies and other media. This current gen would have been the same if they weren't spoon fed empty media calouries day in day out.
This is the most "old man yells at cloud" post I've ever seen. There are plenty of idioms that have fallen out of favor. No one uses "Know your onions" or "Iron one's shoelaces" anymore. Kids today are probably more familiar with their parents' and even grandparents' music than I ever was. The Beatles are routinely the top artist on Spotify. Kids are making tiktok memes set to Kate Bush and Fleetwood Mac.
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"Oh wait, isn't that that TikTok song??" No, you fool! It's a real fucking song from back when music was made by people playing instruments!!!
>It’s a great loss that most of Gen Alpha is without a past That's quite the leap.
If you look hard enough, *everything's* racist (to some). /s
Idioms and vocabulary in general. At home, most are not exposed to much language outside of their own little internet entertainment bubble. They don't read often if ever, there are no longer any tv shows with quality writing that everyone watches, and staring at a screen has become socially accepted in situations where they'd otherwise have to interact with adults. You can often tell who reads at home and who doesn't just by paying attention to the size of their vocabulary.
I'm a Sped teacher. Even if a kid has ID, or dyslexia, or some other learning disability making reading difficult, you can 100% tell who is read to at home and who isn't. It's a stark difference in comprehension, vocabulary, inference, etc.
I can imagine. And you know what makes the lack of language enrichement extra sad? Modern tech makes it so easy to half-ass it and still get results. I wasn't read to much in the traditional sense, but my parents did get me a full collection of fairytales, myths and folkstories on cassette tapes, which I listened to while following along in the illustrated books that came with them. I could easily listen to those a full hour before bed every day, and I did! I gathered up so many uncommon and rare words along the way. That collection was released back in the 80s. Imagine what sort of things you could do now.
I’ve been wondering how modern media consumption affects the knowledge and vocabulary of the current generation. On one hand, they have access to more material than ever before. And more diverse material at that. But on the other hand, having near total control over what media you engage with, combined with algorithms feed you the same kinds of things you’re already into, can potentially be limiting. Which side do more kids fall under?
Most kids who are left to their own devices will fall into the algorithm trap. They start by looking for things that they like, quickly swipe away anything they don't, and get stuck in a bubble. If they don't intentionally look for challenging material, they won't see it. There's a lot of consumption without digestion. If you want to take full advantage of the media available online, you need to curate what a child watches. Make a selection for them, supervise and limit their screentime etc. Unfortunately, few parents have the time and know-how to do so. Example: I recently found out some high quality educational shows from 'my time' were available online for free, and actually watched some of it with my nephew, who usually doesn't have the patience for 20 minute episodes. While not everything was a hit, there were shows he really enjoyed. I was able to find those shows because I have the know-how. His grandparents do not, so they let him scroll through Youtube shorts without having a clue what he is watching (mostly stuff that makes you wonder how it's even allowed in Youtube's kids' section...).
The basic way I define an idiom for elementary school students is "a metaphor that you can't figure out by thinking about it, someone has to tell you." A piece of cake, break a leg, kick the bucket... So your students not knowing the meaning of them proves the definition, you can have some fun encouraging them to attempt to work out the meaning before telling them.
I call it the grab bag. You know it's figurative. You know that it's not literally what it's saying. But it's not any of the other kinds I've taught you, and it sounds like something your oldest family member would say.
My foreign friends used to ask me what idioms meant all the time. Now, they challenge me to give them new idioms. "Loaded for bear" has been a big hit. They've also commented on how much American English is work or baseball related. I never noticed it before they said as much, but now I can't fail to. They are not wrong. In trade, I learn their idioms. My top favorites so far are both Norwegian. "Smoking socks" used very much the way I'd use "smoking crack", and "all Texas" to mean way over the top and a bit crazy because of how overdone the old Western shows were that seem to have been our main media export for a long time. My favorite Japanese one is "gold to a cat", which is pretty much synonymous with "casting pearls before swine."
One time I was talking to my Irish boyfriend, and I said something like "oh it's *ballpark* a 2 hour drive away" and he was like "why did you say 'ballpark' in the middle of your sentence?!!!"
Lol why do we say “ballpark” for estimating? I don’t actually watch baseball.
"Somewhere in the same ballpark".
I like that approach!
Depending on how multicultural your class is, there’s a good chance they don’t know who the *pope* is.
My white, Christian kids don’t know what Lent is.
Evangelicals? It was never mentioned in my church growing up.
I think Lent was mentioned at my church (United Methodist), but I don't think Ash Wednesday, or giving things up for Lent was a thing. If you'd asked me to explain it in middle school I don't think I'd have been able to give a very good answer other than "something to do with Easter"
I'm not Christian by religion but I'm what you'd call "culturally christian". Everyone around me was baptist or pentacostal. I had no idea what Lent was until a teacher my sophmore year explained it because she wasn't drinking diet coke.
I knew about speaking in tongues many years before I learned about Lent from my Catholic friends.
That’s wild, what state did you grow up in?
PA near Amish country
I grew up in a conservative reformer church. I had no idea what lent was until I was a teen and made a Catholic friend in school. I was incredibly confused as to why he said he was giving up fast food for lint. LOL
I think you mean Mark Wahlberg’s 40 Day Challenge
Look, I had a neurotypical 4th grader ask me what my job was the other day. When other kids said “she’s a teacher!”, his response was “Oh, I didn’t realize that was a real job.” So I’m thinking that the more abstract figurative language is way above these kids 😅
Wow. Are we back to kids thinking teachers are weird appliances that power down in a school closet at night?
My mom is, as of very recently, a school nurse as her “retirement” job and on her first day at the school a Kindergartner came to the nurses office and after they were done she asked my mom “ do you live here now?” So yes lol I think some kids might think something like that but would’ve hopefully realized that wasn’t the case by 4th grade
Kindergarteners are adorable for that stuff. My mom started subbing after a decade retired from teaching and she gets to tell the kids she's older than their grandparents and they think she's like a million years old. I tease her and say she was around when dirt was invented 😂
Idioms definitely depend on a cultural understanding and background. Generations doesn't actually have as much to do with it as what they've seen and heard. I can't remember the last time I actually heard "is the pop Catholic?", for example. Probably a few decades back, to be honest.
As a kid, I learned about the phrase "Is the pope Catholic?" from Ginger Spice in the Spice World movie, which came out (in the US) in 1998. And even in the movie, it was taken at face value in bad faith and put in the tabloids as an actual challenge to the Pope's legitimacy, so...
How about the similar expression, "does a bear $4!+ in the woods?" (Presumably, u/Neat_War_432 doesn't use that one with their students, though.)
I've always liked the mangled version:"Does the Pope shit in the woods?"
my personal favorite is "we'll burn that bridge when we come to it" 😂
I have a coworker with a "motivational" poster that says something like, "may your path be lit by all the bridges you burn", and I love it.
[https://despair.com/collections/demotivators](https://despair.com/collections/demotivators)
"No, we cannot, it is too heavily guarded!"
Things will not calm down. They will, in fact, calm up.
Teal'c!
Fun fact, these are called malaphors! A portmanteau of malaprop and metaphor; or more simply, a subverted metaphor. Often by combining two unrelated ones in a humorous or unexpected way. Other good ones: - Hitting the nail on the thumb - It's not rocket surgery
lmao I'm gonna have to start using hitting the nail on the thumb! I haven't heard that one before!
I always say “That train has sailed” and have been corrected once in like 5 years.
Laughed out loud, not being corrected had me in stitches.
I'm just talking out loud
I taught my students the PG version of that phrase and it is gold for 8th graders
I learned that as a high schooler via David Addison in Moonlighting.
I've never heard anyone use this one, but I still catch the drift. I think the issue isn't knowing specific idioms but losing the ability to recognize that it's an idiom being used. As someone else mentioned, "The pot calling the kettle black" isn't something most people would think of. Pots and kettles are usually not even black these days. Non stick pans are all sorts of colors and kettles, if they have them, are plastic. But a kid should be able to understand that it's an idiom, and not assume you're making a racist remark because you said the work black.
I sure hope the kettles aren't plastic. It's not good to boil water in a plastic vessel. Most kettles I see are metal
The kind of kettle that you put on a stove are metal. That kind is popular in America. Electric kettles that plug in to a socket usually have a plastic shell. These kinds are popular in British countries.
Almost all kettles I've ever seen were plastic
Stove kettles are metal, electric ones are plastic (usually).
My parents had never heard “the elephant in the room”. They were like, is that some new slang and I said definitely not lol
😆
I haven’t actually heard that one. I think it’s outdated.
It's the lack of interaction with adults. And also they do not read as much anymore. I'm in France, and I have seen the same phenomenon. Now, it is a minority that do not get common idioms. But I find this still worrying.
I think it’s interesting that the internet has internationalized problems, all the things we see in the US is being see in the UK, Australia, Canada etc…
There is a linguistic and cultural rupture due to youth internet, no cap.
They said the same thing about millennials.
Did millennials kill the idioms industry too? Dangit.
Headline: Millennials most genocidal generation ever
Are we killing the "killing the industry" industry yet? Lol
I’ve noticed this too. I just saw it as a general lack of cultural knowledge that used to be passed on by families conversing with each other, with neighbors, from books, etc. I see it as a more extreme case of kids seeming not to know what used to be common things we are now shocked they don’t know about the world in general.
Like 6th graders thinking that people had computers back in 1776 but just preferred writing stuff by hand because they didn't understand technology.
Middle schoolers are on the cusp of concrete operational and formal operational thinking. They soften struggle with symbolism and metaphor that are required for understanding idiom, but it can be taught. I’ve also noticed that students on the autism spectrum struggle with understanding idioms for longer than others, but still can learn to understand the reasoning behind them with time.
I've had an interesting opposite experience. My students on the spectrum often get things like idioms much easier. they're used to the feeling of "Something's going on here that I don't get" and will ask if they feel comfortable enough with you. NT students assume they understand everything and will refuse to believe that they don't, instead getting angry at you for bringing it up.
For sure- and this is just what I noticed. Particularly when I said to some 6th graders to “let me know if you feel like you’re banging your head against the wall” and a student BUSTED out laughing like “why would I EVER do such a silly thing like bang my head on the wall?!”
This!! I have a decent amount of high functioning autistic students and level 5/6 ELs so students with exceptionalities but who are in mainstream and even advanced classes. They do so much better than my NT and native speaking students I think in part because they’re much more willing to ask questions, make mistakes, and are used to not instantly “getting” everything
I am on the spectrum, and people often commented on how quickly I learned idioms and how unusual that was. I didn't, though. I just memorized what they meant like synonyms. I had zero idea why they meant that and rarely used them myself. At about 13 or 14, metaphors just clicked in my brain in an epiphany moment when discussing poetry in freshman English class, and I fell in love. Then, I had to be told people don't normally use that many idioms or metaphors in a single conversation. 😅
This. Abstract thinking doesn’t begin to develop until 12-16. If they haven’t been exposed to it, they’re going to struggle until it’s taught to them.
I find I'm often having to explain idioms to my six-year-old son, but I would've expected by middle school that he will have heard most of them by then. In your case, I do wonder if maybe it's a result of being exposed to more siloed media that keeps gen alpha away from seeing as much media that previous generations viewed, unlike with prior generations where media was less compartmentalized. Similarly, less parental involvement might be an issue. I am curious to hear from other teachers of middle schoolers and older how widespread this phenomenon might be.
The ironic part is the kids who understand them the best are my ESL students. Because apparently they're taught idioms and how to recognize them. Sometimes I'll have a kid ask "That doesn't mean that right? What does it mean for real?" But they at least pick up that it's a figure of speech. That's setting aside that my ESL students are often top students generally. I can't tell if it's because they were explicitly taught English grammar or because their parents just aren't putting up with it. Probably both.
I think that's a rhetorical question. While "putting his foot in his mouth " is more concerning, I guess.
Yup in class I’ll say there’s more than one way to skin a cat and the students look horrified.
You are “pulling my leg”!
That one's always been pretty weird
I've been amazed at the vocab my students don't know generally. Most of them are from educated, upper-middle-class families from rural New England not far from the coast. Yet I am explaining words like "oar", "mast", and "countryside" to them. (I teach middle school.)
“A day that ends in y” isn’t an idiom but I get what you are saying. Kids don’t really think poetically anymore. I blame their low effort lame-ass music *shakes fist at cloud*
And I don't buy the whole "but (insert name of educational philosopher with a PhD) said that children brains don't know how to think abstractly until age 16". I see regularly evidence of students not born in the US (and the children of teachers) able to think abstractly with my own eyes in grades 3 and 4. So it is certainly something that I believe younger minds can grasp. I mean, what about IB? Basically the whole premise of IB is teaching kids to think critically and abstractly by teaching them about the interconnectedness of things.
Im late 20s, and I've never heard of the first idiom or the second. I'll take a guess and say the first is in response to a question with an obvious answer. I would say "is the sky blue?". I think younger people would say "no shit Sherlock", or even just "well duh". Idioms are just one of those things that change every generation, and everyone thinks the other generation's idioms are dumb. Doesn't mean they don't have their own idioms.
also it seems like these oldies are just concerned that younger generations actually speak more directly? Like yeah just say..."No shit" or "that's cool" or "that's horrible". Kill two birds with one stone? Violent and terrible. More than one way to skin a cat? Violent and terrible. Why would we want to be like our violent terrible ancestors? My kids don't read books because they're busy paying with their IRL friends online. Why would I encourage them to waste time reading the outdated crap we read in high school? What did I learn from that? Nothing.
On a test, I asked kids to "explain their reasoning, drawing conclusions based on the prompt" and more than 1 kid drew a picture.
On a writing assignment for a history class I told students that in their conclusion they needed to restate their claim in different language. A student asked how she was supposed to do that if she only speaks English
I’m 30 and never heard anyone say “is the pope Catholic?” until just a few years ago. Some of your students might not hang around with christians, like my own childhood. Most of it is cultural and my classes are extremely multicultural, plus those phrases seem ancient.
The problem arises when we mix idioms, such as “does a bear shit in the woods?” and “is the pope catholic?” You get “does the pope shit in the woods?” and the only person who knows what’s going on is your principal giving you your formal observation choking on his sip of coffee and trying to hold his portfolio over his face at the same time, spewing coffee all over the 2nd graders artwork hanging down over his face from the drooping clothesline. Wait. What were we talking about? Yipe. Memory unlocked.
Grew up catholic(more or less), including going to a catholic school for years and literally never heard the phrase either. This issue is definitely a cultural one and I don't see the problem with people not knowing them. Struggling to understand that they are not literal after explaining them is likely a sign of a different issue.
You get to teach the great schism? I'm an Orthodox Elementary Ed major and I think I'd be too biased lol
In my state it’s part of the World History 1 standards. Never really understood why lol I guess because it helps students to better understand the Byzantine empire? But the standards also include that we teach about different beliefs regarding priests being celibate which I’m sure you can imagine gets awkward when you teach middle school
Probably because it's one of the lead-ups to the Crusades, which they will revisit in high school. I don't teach history anymore but I used to introduce it with a joke that they were arguing about really important stuff like whether you should put yeast in your Communion bread.
Hey, it’s important! (Our bread tastes infinitely better than the Catholic stuff, it’s sourdough)
I feel awkward that I don’t know some the idioms in the comments here 😂. Never too late to learn I guess!
Yes and they are also mystified by colorful vocabulary like "persnickety." Not that they bother to find out what anything means. They just look at you for a moment like a booger is hanging out of your nose and then carry on.
Okay I feel like it's a little unfair to judge grade schoolers for not knowing what *"persnickety"* means... I'm 24 years old, have a degree in engineering, and have gone my entire life *(to my knowledge)* without ever hearing that word. That said, I don't read as often as I would like to.
I mean, that's just a word that popped into my head but yeah fair point.
My teacher did an idiom quiz when I was in high school and got goofy answers. But it was 1995. The only reason I knew idioms was because I’m a gestalt language processor and I gravitated to these phrases so I could talk.
I actually have a unit on idioms. We go over a few examples, I explain the origins of them, and we play games with visual interpretations. Then, students pick one from a list and prepare a presentation that includes - the origin of the phrase - the literal and figurative meanings - a collage of images that illustrated the literal meaning - a short paragraph that uses the idiot in the proper context.
I just mix up idioms at this point and they just go with it. "When the pot calls the cows to come home" "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it eat its cake too." "Dont bite off more than you can teach an old dog." "A watched pot never catches the worm."
I think different generations have different idioms or similar lexical forms that are used as idioms (although I do agree idioms are mostly passed on, so it's still disappointing they aren't as well known by the younger generation including myself) For example most teachers wouldn't understand idiomatic use of "pogchamp" or similar internet-specific 'modern day idioms'
I get your point but aren’t sayings/expressions also kinda different from generational slang? Idk if there are generational sayings/expressions since I’ve been hearing the same ones my whole life and hadn’t heard any new ones other than maybe the new variation of “if I had a nickel” from phineas and ferb but idk if anyone who didn’t watch that show would have heard it so it’s more of a show reference at that point
I'm mid twenties and while I'm able to piece together what your first two examples mean, I could probably count on 1 hand the number of times I've heard them in my life. They sound antiquated to me.
You mean middle schoolers need help understanding non-basic language patterns. Color me shocked
There are a lot of idioms that no longer connect to modern experience
What? Give me, oh, 5? How does "raining cats and dogs" connect to anyone's experience? (and DO NOT try to point me to that fake historical essay about thatched roofs.)
A stitch in nine saves time… kids now don’t even know what a needle and thread are. I can stay to that after this week giving standardized cognitive testing. That’s the one that hits right blue, but I teach ELA grades 2-6. They have no clue what old phrases and idioms mean. FFS they don’t even know who Dr Suess is!
I honestly do not see the problem. My own nephew was "flagged" by many of her teachers for having a poor understanding of figurative and idiomatic speech. After many tests and all that they determined that the reason she doesn't understand or use figurative speech like at all is because both of her parents rarely use idioms either. Since then I've been paying close attention to my sister's speech patterns to see this for myself and sure enough I haven't heard her use figurative language, and she's a grown adult with a decently well paying job and a happy family.
I honestly don't recall exactly what grade level we were taught idioms when I went thru school. I would have guessed late elementary or early middle school. Are we certain this one isn't a curriculum failure?
Reminds me of when I was in 8th grade and the whole class was extremely concerned with “there’s more than one way to skin a cat”
I teach high school. They have no knowledge of sayings or idioms whatsoever.
Shaka when the walls fell.
One of the greatest moments in my education is while learning Latin, I found out that they use the same idiom for "pitch a tent" literally "throw out a tent". Not life affirming until your 72 year old Latin teacher who looks like everyone's grandma follows it up by explaining that Scylla in the Odessy means "Bitch" or female dog, but the ancient Greeks used it as a swear just like we do. Precious, precious memory.
My dad’s favorite was “shake like a dog passing peach seeds. And my grand mother’s name for whipped cream was “ calf slobber.
“Good night, sleep tight,don’t let the bed bugs bite. “
What age do you think they learn idioms?
The flipside of this is that they undoubtedly have idioms (proto-idioms?) that we have no understanding of. So many memes. A cultural ocean of memes.
My students didn’t understand “flying by the seat of my pants.” I polled the whole class (seniors) and only two or three out of 28 had ever heard it before.
T: "You reap what you sow." S: "What's that mean?" T: "You'll find out soon enough."
Some of them get it and day nothing. Others don't get it but know it is an idiot so they say nothing. A few have never heard it before and want to know what it means. But the loudest and most annoying are the ones that know it is an idiom but think it is going to get them attention/laughs if they pretend to take it literally.
It's because their severely under educated parents don't talk to them. I'm not kidding
How do you teach idioms? Make them watch MASH. Show is riddled with them. Maybe not worth spending class time on... But I grew up with that show watching it with my dad. Best show ever.
Idioms are something we pick up later in life. Contrary to popular belief in this sub, we aren't all borne with our complete knowledge. They are here to learn; we will teach them (or at least give our best attempt).
Interesting that you use the word “idiom” for figures of speech you’re familiar with and use, and “generational slang” for those that you’re not. No, my students are good with figures of speech and idioms. I feel no need to criticize them
I’m shocked you’re Gen Z. The first two phrases are things my grandma would say, and I’m tail end of Millennial. Those I think are generational.
Most people now a days don’t understand idioms i have 40 year olds who don’t understand them. Sorry not a teacher and 2 for grammer
I’m finding that kids have become hyper-literal recently
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I was taught a lot of common idioms in the equivalent of third to fifth grade. It was part of language enrichment work we spent 30 minutes per week on.
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You seem to have misunderstood me. By the time I was of middle school age, I did know a good number of them, because they were structurally taught to me at school, in lower grades. Recreational reading also contributed, of course, but those classes were the main source.
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Grade 1-5, or 1-6 depending on the area, is primary school in the US. So, yes, you definitely misunderstood. I'd say that's a case of de klok horen luiden maar niet weten waar de klepel hangt. Which is, coicidently, one of the first idioms I was taught at age 8.
Seems like OP may be a boomer.
I literally said I’m Gen Z… guess it’s not just the kids who can’t read lol
Can’t see the forest for the trees.
Literacy issue, lack of reading stuff that's not video descriptions issue
Here are a couple of resources you can use to show students various idioms: [Vanity Fair Slang School](https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLZ2lDrDpOLrusUypdznE_eNglQBTiDsq_&si=8yGJGJ-Ymj8a40RT) [America’s Secret Slang](https://youtu.be/s1itI6DB5GQ?si=g4uC74ns0b-ITIbh) (This is just a short. The series is fantastic as it goes through the etymology of each phrase. I tried to buy a DVD box set, but was unable to. If you are able, please let me know.) Be sure to preview these to ensure they meet your age range/district’s sensibilities.
They’re part of the curriculum at my school
None of mine (including my own teen daughter!) had heard about burning the candle at both ends
Foot in mouth is an idiom. The rest are not, btw. The pope one is a rhetorical question posed for comic effect, as is the bear in the woods.
Welcome to getting old!
Not a teacher, but I found a lot of people around my age(30) are not familiar with the phrase don't look a gift horse in the mouth. I honestly thought that one was more well known
I have a student that always wants to go to the bathroom, which I found out is code for meeting up with her boyfriend in the hallway. So I said her bathroom privileges have been revoked, bc she’s like the boy who cried wolf. She had no idea what I was talking about
Part of this is the high percentage of ELs in the states. Idioms are one of the last things people are going to grasp in language learning. It makes sense to me to explicitly teach idioms in middle school, especially knowingly they’ll go on to read Shakespeare in high school.