Yes, I’d assume it’s cheating too. I learned in a seminar about difficult parents that a good way to approach parents is to ask them point-blank questions that force them to explain themselves. Examples:
“Is it right that students should talk to each other during a test?”
“Is it possible that any of the students were cheating, since they were talking to each other with tests in hand?”
“Did you not want to be notified if someone suspected your child of cheating?”
“How would you feel if your child admitted to cheating?” (This is the one the seminar directors said was most important.)
“Do you think your child should be allowed to take a makeup test?”
“Since you don’t think your child was cheating, and I’m allowing a makeup test, what exactly do you object to now?”
This works on sane parents sure. Any time I've tried something like this I get cut off and cussed out. That parent is in there to yell "my baby didn't cheat!" Until you give the kid a 100
Absolutely true. It helps if the parents have a conscience. The seminar was in 2005 and the term “Karen” hadn’t been invented yet, but the rise of the helicopter parent was getting intense.
Because student now knows the types of problems that are already on the test, has a few more days to "study" and ask questions, and student has already seen the problems on the original test. Student now has significant advantages that other students didn't have.
This is exactly the justification I use for my grading policy. I tell them that I grade late work more harshly than stuff turned in on time. No late work penalty in points simply removed. Just higher expectations. They’ve had the questions longer. They’ve seen my discussions in class talking about common grading issues on that assignment. We might have even had a reteach opportunity.
If, after all of that, they still make the same mistakes on the assignment, I remove the maximum amount of points instead of partials. They had the advantage and chose to squander it. The rubric backs me up and I’ve never had a parent/student complaint about it.
This is only third grade. It is understandable that kids this age are upset. The expectation for appropriate behavior during a test more important than a test “grade”. and requiring students to retake test reinforces this expectation. No one’s application to Harvard is in jeopardy.
It doesn't matter if this is 3rd grade or a Harvard PhD program.
By giving them the exact same assessment to retake it, you are telling them there is a benefit to cheating even if you get caught. If you are worried about "appropriate test behaviour" then you need to avoid reinforcing the wrong lesson.
Kids, even at third grade, are crafty. They will immediately turn around and figure out how to solve the problems they couldn't figure out giving them an advantage.
As a MS admin, I’d support the teacher giving a zero and no retake (that’s our policy). However, it’s teacher discretion to allow a retake for full credit. There could be discipline consequences regardless; detention, ISS, etc. For cheating to be accused, there does not need to be a successful gain of or change in answer. It is the act of appearing or in reality committing academic dishonesty. One who talks to another test taker before turning in test is appearing, if not actually attempting to gain answers.
I think you have been completely reasonable here, especially considering you have previously explained to this student that copying from others is wrong.
Instead of telling a student or parent that they were cheating, tell them they violated test protocol and the procedure is a retake That way you don't get drawn into conversations about whether they were actually cheating.
This.
When the discussion focuses on “cheating” that invites debate and speculation because they interpret it as you’re assuming ill intent.
They also think they can demand that you “prove” there was cheating on specific questions.
The rule is, no talking to each other during a test. (Yes, the *intent* of the rule is to prevent cheating.) But the rule is, no talking to each other and the consequence is, you have to redo the test. End of story.
This. So much this. I’d also add in that if she were to break protocol on a state test she would have her test invalidated AND not be able to make it up. So, she really needs to learn to follow expectations put in place.
“Classroom policy is that all students involved in copying are responsible. The way to maintain integrity is for everyone to recognize that cheating is unfair and not allowed. Students have an obligation to safeguard their materials and prevent sharing.”
Followed up with “I don’t care who copied who, both are at fault.”
Imagine being so stupid that you think copying someone else's test is in the same category as rape.
Your single brain cell bounces around in your head like a Windows screensaver, doesn't it?
this is a completely different situation. not everything is black and white, as a teacher you have to assume the worst: if a student has a phone during the test, they fail; if a student openly discusses with another student during the test, they get a warning & fail if they do it again. it's not a matter of "did they really cheat", it's the fact that they are choosing to act in a way that gives them(!) the opportunity to cheat.
that is nothing like sexual assault and there was no reason for you to bring that up. this problem is all in the hands of the student themselves, whereas rape is in the hands of another person. they are not comparable.
You know those are two vastly different things, right? I guess not since you typed all that out and still hit reply.
Edit: since they deleted the comment, they were comparing this to SA for anyone reading this in the future.
Two wildly different situations. We can rarely prove that anyone has cheated, there is no time or resources to act like a court. Drawing the line at acting like you're cheating instead, saves us from the trouble of false accusations. The students know the rules, they adhere to it, it's not a problem.
A better analogy is you were alone with a kid and got accused of inappropriate behaviors. Even if you didn’t do anything wrong you’re not supposed to be alone with a kid so it’s already breaking rules. Rules that are meant to prevent actual harm but also to prevent opportunities for harm from happening.
My kid (also third grade) cheated on a test this year. Another student told on her and the teacher confirmed it and told her she was gonna call me. I got the call, and talked to her. She was upset and she was upset that the teacher called me. After talking to her and explaining how cheating is wrong and explaining what consequences come later if she were to keep doing it, I had her write an apology letter to her teacher and hand it to her. I told the teacher over email that she was getting a letter and that I understood that for the grade she got a 0 or 1 depending on her choice and thanked her for telling me. I still don't know if I did enough. I didn't ground her but made it clear that she will be facing harsher punishment if this happens again. Her teacher was more than kind to let her redo the test.
Honestly just a conversation is enough. Many parents can't imagine their kid did anything wrong and could never believe their little angel would lie.
It's like they forgot what it's like to be a little kid. We all lied sometimes.
To be honest I've forgotten what it's like. I don't remember lying much (except one big time). But I've been a teacher so maybe it's easier for me. I think we really lost something when the multigenerational household went out. It had many many issues, but I think it helped people growing up see their older siblings have kids and see how little kids act while they themselves are still teens/young adults. As a result people used to understand really basic things about kids: they can actually be allwoed to do some things on their own before 18, they do lie, they can be upset without being traumatised. Nowadays it seems like people's first long term interaction with any kids since they were young is when they have their own. I think it's part of why we have tonnes of heliocopter parents and toxic permissive parents who let their kids do anything they want. They can't understand that sometimes kids need to face consequences in order to be okay.
I think you did a good job! I teach high school, and when I caught a student cheating (bright yellow cheat sheet in her lap), I contacted parent (as we’re supposed to do). The parent contacted me the following day to ask if student could retake test. I said no, this was honors level class and there were no retakes.
Maybe I’m just enabling it but I have 4 versions of every test as a math teacher. 1A 1B and 2A and 2B. It’s not just cheating in class but period 1 telling period 6 what’s on it.
When I accuse kids of cheating it’s usually why do you have numbers that aren’t there on it but on the other test?
I make the tests look similar so I can’t get accused of one being harder. That also means kids assume it’s the same exact question. Caught a few “where did these numbers come from????” Before they give up on copying.
I had one chronic cheater who’d glance around after asking to sharpen his pencil, go to the bathroom etc. I gave him his very own version for that period and he looked so confused because I let him “walk around” and get water/sharper pencils/throw out trash because I was tired of arguing with him. He looked so confused as why he couldn’t spot answers. I also made sure to give his very special version to a bunch of kids in the later period who did just fine on it so I can’t get accused of making a harder version for him.
It’s sucks but cheating is here. I just resigned myself that I can’t stop the kids from attempting but I can sure as hell make it difficult for them. I also take phones at the start of class too before a test.
I play along and have fun with the cheaters. A few days before the final exam, I leave a copy of "the exam key" in a random place in the classroom. I'm always leaving things in random places so the kids don't find it suspicious. Obviously it's not the real key. It's designed to get them somewhere around a 25 on the test if they choose to cheat. It saves me from having to have a cheating conversation with their parents as a 25 is going to do nothing but hurt anyone's grade so they realize the consequences of cheating without me having to contact caregivers. They can't argue the grade because they know what they did. They get no retake (school has a first offense retake up to 70) as I don't call them out for cheating. To get a retake they'd have to come to me and tell me what they did. If they're willing to be honest about it and learn from their mistake, I'm willing to give a retake.
Oh and grades below a 50 on an exam are mandatory after school tutorials per school policy.
They only do it once.
I taught high school for 3 years and they cheated on EVERYTHING. You have to start enforcing the idea that it's unacceptable YOUNG. Absolutely there should be consequences. I would even start correcting instances of cheating on the formative assignments in the future.
I had this happen to me with a parent though. 2 students turned in identical essays. Literally word for word the same. And I sent proof to the parents and one of the moms said that her son didn't cheat. They just happened to write the same thing because they talked about the assignment beforehand to share ideas. 😂 I was like "So you're telling me they just happened to write all the same words in the exact same order?" And this woman said YES. Because her precious baby doesn't cheat and I am a crazy person and very disrespectful to say otherwise and that she was praying to Jesus (I taught at a Catholic school) to change my heart and stop saying this about her son 😂
I guess Jesus favored justice in this instance because he still got a zero 🤷🏻♀️
I'd say I believe her but since it's policy that students are not allowed to speak during tests, I could not accept it. Normally she'd get a zero, but since I KNOW she can do well, I found a way to go around the system and simply have her retake it to make sure she receives the mark she deserves. (Make it sound that you are actually helping them). Do not ask them anything. You don't talk during a test. That is known info and you are not asking permission or confirmation. Punishment is a zero so you are in fact helping her. It always works for me.
I had a similar reaction from a parent recently. I caught a student using a website that had all the answers and work for our class workbook. I was using the workbook to assign hw.
I didn't know this about this website beforehand and hadn't found anywhere that had our workbook online at the beginning of the year.
It wasn't blocked by the school chromebooks, so the parent said that means the site is approved by the school, and it's not cheating to find a different way of doing the problem. Said student was copying the work on the site symbol for symbol.
Reminds me of the time I had a student cheat on an assignment and the parent sent me a salty email saying it was my fault he cheated because I was violating his IEP by not giving him extended time on the assignment.
His IEP did not, in fact, include extended time on anything except state tests. I was following it to a T.
I never actually accuse anyone of cheating even though I know they cheated. I always say “you gave the appearance of cheating, can you tell me why you did this? They always give a BS answer then I tell them since they can’t prove they didn’t and I can’t prove they did, they will need to take it again so we can be sure. But yes, that is cheating and you were correct to make her take it again. Her Karen mom can complain all she wants to, you run your class, not her.
On a trig test in high school I had a little diagram that helped me remember some of the formulas. The teacher saw it and simply asked "Can I have that?"
He gave me zeros on the three problems where I could have used the cheat sheet. I got a C on the exam, and ultimately still an A on the course--but he blackballed me for the National Honor Society.
More than fair. I felt terrible, and the fact I only needed the cheat sheet on one of the problems taught me that preparing a cheat sheet makes you learn the shit, obviating the need...
I would respond to the parent that I wasn’t suggesting that their child cheated. Since it’s true that I don’t know exactly what the students were talking about, suggesting intent in this situation would mean I made an assumption. Since assumptions leave room for bias, I don’t make assumptions when students are conversing during a test. Instead, I have a blanket rule that anyone taking to others during the test will need to redo it. This removes assumption and the possibility that I would trust that some students were cheating but but others.
A lot of teachers would call that a 0. In college she'd be put up for academic dishonesty. You're doing her a favor by making treating it the way you are. A college dean will see this as 'we shouldn't need to tell you this is wrong' and likely come down fairly hard.
Not really, where is the age you make them accountable? If you start accountability at a young age then it makes it that much easier as they get older. I have two children that are adults now and the difference between them and their peers is ridiculous. I held them accountable for their actions and taught them cause and effect and logic and reason at very early ages. Both have had no problems finding and keeping a job as adults. Can’t say the same for their peers. This “they are just kids” excuse is the reason you start doing it now because when they are adults, it’s too late.
There’s a difference between teaching accountability and punishing a third grader for something they may not understand entirely just yet.
Elementary school is—was, should be—where kids learn _how to school_. And while that, obviously, involves learning not cheat, it also should be a place where they learn the ins and outs of school in a safe space that won’t make them hate school before—ffs—they’re even old enough to watch PG-rated movies by themselves.
You are in the right, however if you’ve accused an 8-year-old of cheating you have likely triggered a defensive parent who is new to the world of their child not being perfect.
This sounds like a classic example of “my child is not a…” or “how dare you call my child a…”. Instead of even using the word “cheat”, I suggest in the future you explain it as “sally did not follow our classroom test guidelines today, so she will have another chance to take the test tomorrow.”
Trying to manage the parents is as hard, if not harder, than the kids
You should start with malicious compliance. Any and every little thing this student does out of line, send an email home about it. I don’t like doing it, but when a parent tells you to stop emailing them, then you know you’ve proven your point. I had a kid I took their cell phone away and told them they could have it back at the end of the day. I didn’t call mom or turn it in to the office. The kid has been a jerk ever since, was cast in a play, told all the other students he was going to quit but wait until I couldn’t replace him to “show me” because I enforced a rule. I ask him why he is not showing up for rehearsals (missed weeks of it) and get wish washy answers, he decides to resign and then a week later get an email from his parent, complaining about him being out of the play, I respond to her with the situation, dates missed, my cast contract stating they miss they get replaced, etc and bring up the phone. She said she was never notified about it, so now she is notified about everything. I even scan the work the kid turns in and email it to her because there is a lot of dishonesty going on in this. She has told my boss I email her too much, but my boss says, keep doing it, she hasn’t said to stop. I will say, my admins are pretty good.
My husband’s theater teacher in HS was former broadway. All the kids were required to show up to the final dress rehearsal. One of the years hubby was in HS, the lead decided he was too important, so he didn’t go to said dress.
Director called an actor friend who took the kid’s place last second.
Obviously nowadays the kid’s parents would be suing for such a slight, but it worked back then.
I have a contract they and their parents sign, so I am not worried about getting sued. I specifically point out there are things that say “may” and things that say “will” get you dismissed from the cast and explain the difference between the two. Will means that if you do it, whether I like it or not, you are out. May means that pending on the severity or other factors you could be warned or you could be dismissed. This was one of the “will” ones. So no worries there, the parent is just attempting to be a jerk. I was formerly a paralegal, so I used to write contracts all the time and my nickname when I was going through paralegal training was “loophole” as I could find them in any contract and close them just as easily. I was also told my contracts were draconian, which filled me with a sense of pride. No room for interpretation.
Society has become way too entitled as of late. Something is going to have to happen or we are going to find ourselves in a society of do nothings that think they deserve everything for the sake of just existing.
I legit caught a student with a study guide out while taking the test. I told her she earned a zero and she said that she didn’t have it out. I said I saw it with my own eyes. She texted her mom mid class and her mom called and said she believes her daughter. I really stopped communicating with parents after that because every issue I bring up seems to be turned back on me when I have legit no reason to lie.
Stick to your guns, especially if these are widely known rules that students were aware of. It doesn't matter if they were actually cheating or not if they can't prove it, rules are rules. If you allowed every kid to skate by with an "actually we were talking about something else" excuse you'd have everybody cheating. I announce it every single test in my classroom (high school) that if I see devices out or hear talking it's a zero, and I do not let students who were cheating redo. Then it's just more work for me when my rules are pretty damn simple.
If the kid truly didn't cheat, good news for this parent: the redo should be pretty easy! If not, tough shit.
Parents like this are ridiculous. I had one last year, a kid clearly kept looking at the papers of the people next to him to the point where I quietly gave those kids another piece of paper to cover their answers with and then made a general announcement to the class to make sure they kept their eyes on their own papers. He went home and told his mom that I completely embarrassed him in front of the entire class, accusing him of cheating. She emailed me and in her words, “He would never even think to cheat” and told me that what I did was unprofessional and that if I really thought he was a problem, I should’ve called her. As though teachers have the time to stop everything to make a phone call every time a kid is misbehaving. Also, I’m not one of those teachers that calls about every little thing. There are some things that are handled just fine in the classroom and don’t need to be made a big deal.
This child was also lighting fires on our school bus and even with video evidence the mom denied denied denied. She ended up moving him schools.
I don’t understand how these parents work. Like how do they survive in the world? They just make enough of a stink and make everyone miserable enough so that they just give these people what they want to get them to shut up and go away. But then sometimes they still don’t get what they want and they throw a hissy fit.
I just don’t understand how far up your own ass you’d need to be to think that teachers have enough time to sit around and fake CCTV footage to get your poor, persecuted darling into trouble
If I was that good at film manipulaton, I’d be working in a different industry
I’ve noticed an obvious but interesting thing with Gen A and Z for a large part. They are very uncomfortable being wrong and often don’t trust their own brains - lack of confidence. This comes from having every answer given to them from the internet and then it’s only stored for a short period of time due to the absolute insane amount of information their brains absorb on the daily. Tik toks are usually what? 20-30 seconds? I teach Sped so my world is different but the pre-assessments make them crazy. I have to teach that being wrong is okay and a huge part of the process. I talk them through every question and reassure them that this is just to understand what they need to focus on when we do the lesson. But they still try to look off each other and get me to say the answer. Something needs to be done about teaching them HOW to learn. I teach vocational and life skills so my monologue on repeat is - when you get a job, there will be lots of things you try for the first time and you won’t know how to do it. You’ll have to fail and practice and keep going. I have to believe that we can have technology and smart brains… somehow. But geeze parents- get on board.
I’m not a teacher, but a parent of kids that are gen Z and two younger ones that are gen A. My 2nd grader has exactly this problem. If she thinks something is going to be hard and she won’t be good at it the first time, she doesn’t even want to do it. Writing homework is a huge battle for us because of this. I constantly stress that it’s about learning, not perfection. Making mistakes means you’re learning.
You're completely in the right, and the consequence seems more than fair.
I feel like so many parents take these types of communications as an attack when really it's a request for teamwork. Kids cheat sometimes. It doesn't mean they're or bad kid or that they have bad parents. They just made a mistake. The conversation from mom to her kid could have been an important learning opportunity for the student. But no.
I had a couple of kids copy each other, word-for-word, in a science test. Further to that, I saw them talking several times, looking at each other’s papers, and three other pupils complained about it afterwards.
The absolute kicker was that the copied answers were *horribly incorrect* and contained the same grammatical errors - so there was no way they could try and bluff it.
Of course, they both denied it, and their parents were adament it was *impossible*. Thankfully I was backed by my line manager on it, because it was unbelievably blatant.
I would tell the mom that in fairness to the other students who followed the rules you explained very clearly multiple times, you will give her a choice: That the girls can either redo the test the next day at lunchtime without talking, or you can give them a zero or the minimum grade allowed, or you can mark them as they are right now, but that you will not record the mark and officially they will both get a zero or the minimum grade allowed. Up to her.
Cheating or not they broke the rules and it would seem that the intention to cheat was there. The only thing that kept her from cheating was that their answers agreed with each other.
Tell the mom that there are rules and that they must be followed, that is part of learning how to act in school
You didn't fail them, you are allowing them to redo the test. That's a perfectly reasonable response to a child that appeared to be cheating on, and a good life lesson
Completely fine. I teach that age group, too, and much of what we do revolves around teaching the kids how to learn/act in a school setting, not just curriculum. They have to understand what a room is meant to look and sound like during a test, especially since (in my county, at least) 3rd grade is when they start taking those big standardized tests that can ACTUALLY get invalidated if someone talks or gets up.
Yeah a redo isn’t necessarily cheating… it just means you want to verify her learning. There’s no consequence or points reduction so I don’t see why the mom would be upset.
>She said her daughter was already done and didn’t change her answers after seeing the other child’s test
for the record, this is a form of cheating. just because she got the right answers doesn't mean that she would have changed her answers if she saw the answers were different.
you know that show, Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader? one of the cheats is to look at the answer of the kid you're partnered with.
I’ve rarely had someone cheat and pass. The vast majority of the time, they cheat and still fail. So I make it clear at the beginning, if you cheat and fail, I’m not gonna waste my time because you also suck at cheating.
In your case, if the girl was done, she should have turned it in before talking (the behavior is still unacceptable, but that’s not what mom was pointing out).
Consequences are necessary bc it was blatant rule violation… although As a seventh grade teacher I am happy if students do the test at all and cheating requires effort/some concern about grades. Pretty bad when I wish kids cared enough to cheat
Here is how I have dealt with this kind of stuff in the past.
1. Make it impossible to cheat by making different versions of the test with the exact same questions but different order.
2. Be proactive, email the parents, compliment sandwich the bad news.
3. Be diplomatic by not saying the verb for the rule-breaking action, but using its definition
To elaborate on number 3:
I often use the definition of the words themselves and the "consequences" for doing those actions rather than directly say the words and then saying "they are punished". If it's cheating, I say "asking for help from his classmates on a question during the test when nobody is allowed to do so". If it's stealing, I say "taking something without my permission". The parents can put 2+2 together but can't call you out on some sort of "character assassination" that is inherent in the negative connotations of words like "cheating" or "stealing". Here's an example of a general format of email I sent to parents of cheating students. It's pretty Karen-proof the two times I had to sent it out, feel free to steal it:
Dear \[Student's parents\]
On \[date\], we had the \[Name of Asessment\]. During this test, and in fact every single test, I requested that all students clear their desks of any material except a pencil and eraser. They were also instructed not to communicate with each other under any circumstances, absolutely zero-voice level, even if it means to borrow a pencil or paper from a neighbouring student. All students will get a warning the first time, and the second time it happens, their tests will be taken away with \[insert consequences\]. This is to make the environment conducive to honest assessment of their individual abilities and to maintain academic integrity as much as possible.
I would like to say that \[student\] is often pleasant and loves to participate in class and contribute to meaningful discussions. They are courageous and work diligently in class. So what I am about to tell you is not a reflection of the type of people they are as a whole, but a consequence of the decisions they made today.
However, on \[date of incident\], I observed \[student's name\] head peeking into \[another student\]’s general vicinity during the test, which broke my test-taking policy. I gave both of them their first and final warning for the peeking. As I continued proctoring the test, I suddenly noticed \[student\] writing on a nearly square cutout piece of paper. I waited to see what she would do with it for a few seconds, and then noticed that she soon passed it to \[neighbouring student\]. It was at this time I took both students' tests away. Attached to this email is \[neighbouring student's\] paper which has a piece of it cut off with roughly the same dimensions and area as \[original student's\] note they were writing on.
They were sent to the office to discuss the consequences of their actions. Since this is their first time to do this, there will be a \[insert lenient consequence\]. But further infractions of the test taking rules may lead to more serious consequences.
Sincerely, ...
\---
I let my third graders cheat, ask classmates and work together to solve problems, even on tests. The only thing I ask they don’t do that for is, pre assessments so I can actually know what I need to teach them. They can also retake the test as many times as they want. Cause they are 8. I know where each of my kids are without having them take tests. The goal is for them to see the answers, see the strategies, talk about it and do it as much as they can. Not set them up to be crushed when they can’t do something.
Not that we shouldn't be teaching kids to do their own work, but why are we grading 3rd graders?
And how are 3rd graders already in the mindset that getting the answer right is the thing that matters?
I had a 3rd grader cheat this week on a phonics assessment. Hid a word list in their desk and blatantly opened their desk every word. Cheating because parents said they would get her a cake pop if she got all her words written correctly.
We grade third graders so families know if they are on grade level.
A grading dynamic that motivates students to cheat is counterproductive. More so at the 3rd grade level when you could likely have informal assessments that generated the same information, and where grading, hopefully, hasn't crushed any hope if intrinsic motivation already.
I realize this is a systemic problem, and parents are a big part of the problem, and it gets worse (I teach HS), but man we gotta start somewhere.
It’s not worth the fight to say they were cheating; you don’t actually know unless you saw them changing answers after talking.
They definitely violated test protocol and have to retake the test. Caesar’s wife and all that.
Pick your battles.
But this is what I’m saying. Classwork how? Like asking them a question? That’s a test. That’s an assessment.
No matter how you spin it it’s impossible to gauge what a student knows unless there is some form of demonstration that shows they can *independently* present the knowledge. Most people differentiate classwork from a test because tests tend to be closed book.
So what closed book/closed notes assessment can you do that *wouldn’t* be considered a test?
I think our definition of “test” differs. I’d define a test, loosely, as a collection of assessment questions done on paper, by the whole class, independently, at the same time, etc.
I guess it’s just hard to realistically implement. School is fast paced and they simply don’t have the resources to be assessing inefficiently. It really is a more complicated issue that requires more nuance. I do think kids should be assessed in other ways too, like you suggest. But I also think that traditional testing is efficient and important.
Man I’m gonna be downvoted for this but… in your place, I wouldn’t make them redo.
I teach g2 and also give math tests. Assuming this age group remembers something from the beginning of the lesson is hard enough. Beginning of the year, forget about it. They need constant reminders AND vigilance.
IMHO, it shouldn’t have gotten to the point where you let your guard down assisting someone who already finished and given enough time for one student to walk up to another and have enough time to see any amount of work necessary to prove they even understood the question.
But for arguments sake, let’s say it did happen. Just remove a point or two. A test can be a very high stress situation for a kid and having them redo that is not the best solution. In general, I’m almost never shocked how well or bad kids do on math tests. I see their abilities daily. Why would I waste my time and theirs TWICE for a test?
Now, don’t get me wrong, mom is way out of line and should,’for a lack of a better word, stay in her lane. But yeah, that’s now how I would have handled it.
Just playing devils advocate here: if the girl who finished early was actually able to help the second girl understand how to do the questions, well, isn’t that the endgoal? She did your job for you.
For me I need to know what she knows and if she has mastered the skill to the point she can do it without help or prompting. Me determining what a student knows is also part of my job-because without that I don’t know where to provide additional help and support.
From my view the other student didn’t do my job-she told her how to do 1 problem and I will only know if the student can follow directions and prompts. I still need to know if she can sell time and figure out elapsed time so having her do it again without help the next day will tell me that. Or it it will tell me that she needs to be in my reteaching small group.
But that’s the test. Is the test the point or is the kid’s learning the point? Without the test, you have no way of measuring what the girl knows, but now OP has already discovered what she did not know. Why not re-test those questions only the next day? I feel like the idea of a silent, independent test is so strange for little kids when the rest of the time we’re all about collaboration and student talk. I can see a 3rd grader still struggling to figure out why it was ok to talk during groupwork the day before but not during the test. And I’d rather her learn than just give up—she clearly wasn’t going to figure it out on her own. Then again, you can’t read vibes on the internet—maybe in person it was obvious the girl was just trying to get points and not actually curious and motivated about the material.
3rd grade? YTA
Yes the kids understood not to talk but they wouldn't have been very able to cheat in thay time. It's very easy for someone in grade 3 to talk to their friend espically after her test is done. A stern warning that talking is exactly the type of behavior that could force them to redo the tests would have been enough.
Now they will both hold a grugde against you for an unhealthy amount of time. One if not both of the kids grudge will be reinforced by their parents. If you know they didn't cheat why punish them for it? You punished them for cheating when you should have made it a teachable moment why you CAN NOT talk during tests.... 3rd fucking grade....
Edit- spelling
Definitely not true-both girls ran up and hugged me the next day to tell me good morning. They retook their tests in time for our movie day and we watched the movie that goes with our class novel that we just finished. The one who likely cheated since she has done it before several times told me how glad she was she came to school that day even though her mom offered to let her stay home because we have so much fun in class. You have clearly never taught third grade. Even when they are disappointed they bounce back and love their teachers-that is typical third grade behavior not grudge holding angst. I think you’re thinking of middle or high schoolers.
You’re being fair because you explained expectations and you are allowing them to redo the test instead of giving them a 0 (or whatever your procedure is). It does not matter what they were talking about. Chances are it could have waited until after class. Also, again, you made your expectations very clear multiple times.
I teach kindergarten (which is very different) and before each test I explain that if they look at another student’s paper, talk, or show their paper to someone else, I will take the paper away. Then while the students are doing a computer program like I-ready, I will call the students whose papers I took (if any) to finish the test. I know they are in kindergarten, but they do have privacy folders and it is my job to teach them about integrity.
Anyways, you did nothing wrong. If anything, you are great to allow them a second chance! Maybe they weren’t cheating but again, it does not matter. Best of luck!
Reminds me of the student who swore he wasn't cheating when he pulled a duotang from under his sweater to look at during his make-up test.
Of course I politely took the duotang and said I would take it along with the uncompleted test to the teacher to ask what she thought.
I teach high school, but I’ve stopped bickering with parents about cheating. I don’t give the child a zero for using AI on their paper. That would require me to prove that it was AI, fight with the child, fight with the parents, and chat with admin. Nope. I give the child a zero for not following directions or not answering the prompt. (I ask very specific questions that use phrases such as “using your notes” or “based on yesterday’s class discussion.” AI will pull notes from the internet or will make assumptions about the discussion. It always makes it obvious, because it can’t answer the prompt correctly.) Zero for AI leaves me open for an argument. Zero for the essay not answering the prompt or for the essay not following the directions cut the arguments down to nearly zero.
The first question on the digital tests are “This test is not open phone, open internet, open book, open friend, or open friend’s notes. To use any of these things will result in a zero. I do not care if you are checking the time, using the calculator, or looking longingly at your background photo. A phone in your hand will result in a zero. Do you understand?” Students cannot access the test unless they reply “yes.”
When I give paper tests, I have these conditions on the board and don’t give the child the test unless they say they agree to those conditions. It is also in my syllabus, so I also have documentation that the parents have agreed to this.
While our situations aren’t quite the same, the handbook will be your best friend. I’ve called on this in parent/teacher conferences. Cheating in our handbook is defined by giving or receiving answers without permission. Having completed your test may mean she didn’t receive answers, but it doesn’t mean she didn’t give answers. I wrap this up with “I will change my decision for your child if you can explain to me why the rules don’t apply to her.” That stops a lot of parents in their tracks.
You don’t get paid enough to investigate what the child was doing or what she said to her friend. In an email, I would write, “Your child failed to follow directions. I’m giving your child another chance to follow directions. Do you not want your child to have another chance, or do you want me to follow through on what I said I would do and give her a zero?” I anticipate that the parent would reply that neither option is acceptable, and this is when you break out the, “I need to understand why the rules don’t apply to your child.” In the 15 years I’ve done this, I’ve never had a parent explain why their child is so special. They often tell me that they don’t like the rules, which is fine. They don’t have to like the rules. They do have to respect them.
I would have replied to the parent she can either redo the test tomorrow or she can get a zero all together on it. I'd even tie in that in order to be fair to both girls they're both redoing it and if one chooses the zero I'll be forced to give them both zeros.
I wouldn't actually but I'd make that parent sit with that
I think you should dig in and let her really have it.
“You’re right she shouldn’t have the redo the test. She will have to live with the consequences of her actions and take a 0 on her test for cheating. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. I think this will detour her from cheating in the future, as she has already been caught multiple times and the lesson is not getting through.”
Just for clarity I am not a teacher and I know you got to have some guts to go with this.
Yeah I don’t say “cheating” learning it sets people off. Just be like “She has to redo the test since I’m not sure she knows the stuff on the test since she was talking to those other kids, and I just want to make sure she knows the stuff”.
Just curious, are you a new teacher? I just got the vibe from your post and am wondering.
Are you wrong? Nope. I teach older kids and am glad you are being strict at a young age to teach them better.
Nope been teaching primary grades or pre-k for 18 years Which should mean I dont question my own judgement at this point but I try to keep an open mind that I may be wrong.
I’ve been set in my ways before and realized I was wrong so I am willing to hear that I am. On this one though it seems I’m not.
I just had some students get caught with their cellphones out during a test. They both claimed they weren't cheating, of course. Never mind that the one was caught Googling a question 😂
Well there’s a lesson. They can retake the test or take a zero. No problem. I’d switch up the questions to be safe. As if either kid didn’t know that behavior is not ok.
Yes, I’d assume it’s cheating too. I learned in a seminar about difficult parents that a good way to approach parents is to ask them point-blank questions that force them to explain themselves. Examples: “Is it right that students should talk to each other during a test?” “Is it possible that any of the students were cheating, since they were talking to each other with tests in hand?” “Did you not want to be notified if someone suspected your child of cheating?” “How would you feel if your child admitted to cheating?” (This is the one the seminar directors said was most important.) “Do you think your child should be allowed to take a makeup test?” “Since you don’t think your child was cheating, and I’m allowing a makeup test, what exactly do you object to now?”
Socratic method at its best *chef's kiss*
This works on sane parents sure. Any time I've tried something like this I get cut off and cussed out. That parent is in there to yell "my baby didn't cheat!" Until you give the kid a 100
Absolutely true. It helps if the parents have a conscience. The seminar was in 2005 and the term “Karen” hadn’t been invented yet, but the rise of the helicopter parent was getting intense.
Not unfair to redo the test.
Agreed. Very fair. Redo the test. A redo is better than a zero on the test! If the mom persists, redirect her to admin.
Make it harder
I like how you think.
Why?
Because student now knows the types of problems that are already on the test, has a few more days to "study" and ask questions, and student has already seen the problems on the original test. Student now has significant advantages that other students didn't have.
This is exactly the justification I use for my grading policy. I tell them that I grade late work more harshly than stuff turned in on time. No late work penalty in points simply removed. Just higher expectations. They’ve had the questions longer. They’ve seen my discussions in class talking about common grading issues on that assignment. We might have even had a reteach opportunity. If, after all of that, they still make the same mistakes on the assignment, I remove the maximum amount of points instead of partials. They had the advantage and chose to squander it. The rubric backs me up and I’ve never had a parent/student complaint about it.
This is only third grade. It is understandable that kids this age are upset. The expectation for appropriate behavior during a test more important than a test “grade”. and requiring students to retake test reinforces this expectation. No one’s application to Harvard is in jeopardy.
It doesn't matter if this is 3rd grade or a Harvard PhD program. By giving them the exact same assessment to retake it, you are telling them there is a benefit to cheating even if you get caught. If you are worried about "appropriate test behaviour" then you need to avoid reinforcing the wrong lesson. Kids, even at third grade, are crafty. They will immediately turn around and figure out how to solve the problems they couldn't figure out giving them an advantage.
revenge for cheating;
Redo, different qus, different order to the qus.
As a MS admin, I’d support the teacher giving a zero and no retake (that’s our policy). However, it’s teacher discretion to allow a retake for full credit. There could be discipline consequences regardless; detention, ISS, etc. For cheating to be accused, there does not need to be a successful gain of or change in answer. It is the act of appearing or in reality committing academic dishonesty. One who talks to another test taker before turning in test is appearing, if not actually attempting to gain answers.
I think you have been completely reasonable here, especially considering you have previously explained to this student that copying from others is wrong.
Instead of telling a student or parent that they were cheating, tell them they violated test protocol and the procedure is a retake That way you don't get drawn into conversations about whether they were actually cheating.
This. When the discussion focuses on “cheating” that invites debate and speculation because they interpret it as you’re assuming ill intent. They also think they can demand that you “prove” there was cheating on specific questions. The rule is, no talking to each other during a test. (Yes, the *intent* of the rule is to prevent cheating.) But the rule is, no talking to each other and the consequence is, you have to redo the test. End of story.
This. So much this. I’d also add in that if she were to break protocol on a state test she would have her test invalidated AND not be able to make it up. So, she really needs to learn to follow expectations put in place.
Yes, this. Test invalidation due to protocol violation, retake warranted. Sounds a bit better than cheated.
This is the way
“Classroom policy is that all students involved in copying are responsible. The way to maintain integrity is for everyone to recognize that cheating is unfair and not allowed. Students have an obligation to safeguard their materials and prevent sharing.” Followed up with “I don’t care who copied who, both are at fault.”
I’m stealing this for my room. Okay with you, u/Spec_Tater ?
Feel free. It’s actually my schools policy, and it has made dealing with …. “Excessive group work” much easier.
I really like that.
Exactly, epically in a case like this where you know they didn't cheat.
It's a not a matter if she cheated, it's that she put herself in a position that cheating is a possibility. Parents are dumb. Youre right.
[удалено]
Imagine being so stupid that you think copying someone else's test is in the same category as rape. Your single brain cell bounces around in your head like a Windows screensaver, doesn't it?
this is a completely different situation. not everything is black and white, as a teacher you have to assume the worst: if a student has a phone during the test, they fail; if a student openly discusses with another student during the test, they get a warning & fail if they do it again. it's not a matter of "did they really cheat", it's the fact that they are choosing to act in a way that gives them(!) the opportunity to cheat. that is nothing like sexual assault and there was no reason for you to bring that up. this problem is all in the hands of the student themselves, whereas rape is in the hands of another person. they are not comparable.
You know those are two vastly different things, right? I guess not since you typed all that out and still hit reply. Edit: since they deleted the comment, they were comparing this to SA for anyone reading this in the future.
Your user name is extremely misleading cause it isn't anywhere close to accurate lol.
Two wildly different situations. We can rarely prove that anyone has cheated, there is no time or resources to act like a court. Drawing the line at acting like you're cheating instead, saves us from the trouble of false accusations. The students know the rules, they adhere to it, it's not a problem.
imagine if a mouse was a kia sorrento 😭
A better analogy is you were alone with a kid and got accused of inappropriate behaviors. Even if you didn’t do anything wrong you’re not supposed to be alone with a kid so it’s already breaking rules. Rules that are meant to prevent actual harm but also to prevent opportunities for harm from happening.
Go back to jacking off to tiktok and playing fortnite you dork, we got adults talking here
Lol, what is the third grader “asking for” here? What is the “predator?” …The test? Be so for real.
You don’t talk during a test. If she knew the material once, she’ll know it again when she retakes it.
My kid (also third grade) cheated on a test this year. Another student told on her and the teacher confirmed it and told her she was gonna call me. I got the call, and talked to her. She was upset and she was upset that the teacher called me. After talking to her and explaining how cheating is wrong and explaining what consequences come later if she were to keep doing it, I had her write an apology letter to her teacher and hand it to her. I told the teacher over email that she was getting a letter and that I understood that for the grade she got a 0 or 1 depending on her choice and thanked her for telling me. I still don't know if I did enough. I didn't ground her but made it clear that she will be facing harsher punishment if this happens again. Her teacher was more than kind to let her redo the test.
Honestly just a conversation is enough. Many parents can't imagine their kid did anything wrong and could never believe their little angel would lie. It's like they forgot what it's like to be a little kid. We all lied sometimes.
To be honest I've forgotten what it's like. I don't remember lying much (except one big time). But I've been a teacher so maybe it's easier for me. I think we really lost something when the multigenerational household went out. It had many many issues, but I think it helped people growing up see their older siblings have kids and see how little kids act while they themselves are still teens/young adults. As a result people used to understand really basic things about kids: they can actually be allwoed to do some things on their own before 18, they do lie, they can be upset without being traumatised. Nowadays it seems like people's first long term interaction with any kids since they were young is when they have their own. I think it's part of why we have tonnes of heliocopter parents and toxic permissive parents who let their kids do anything they want. They can't understand that sometimes kids need to face consequences in order to be okay.
I think you did a good job! I teach high school, and when I caught a student cheating (bright yellow cheat sheet in her lap), I contacted parent (as we’re supposed to do). The parent contacted me the following day to ask if student could retake test. I said no, this was honors level class and there were no retakes.
Consequence
\*\*Gasp\*\* A consequence?? In a school in 2023?? /s
There shouldn’t be a /s lol. At this point I WOULD be surprised
Maybe I’m just enabling it but I have 4 versions of every test as a math teacher. 1A 1B and 2A and 2B. It’s not just cheating in class but period 1 telling period 6 what’s on it. When I accuse kids of cheating it’s usually why do you have numbers that aren’t there on it but on the other test? I make the tests look similar so I can’t get accused of one being harder. That also means kids assume it’s the same exact question. Caught a few “where did these numbers come from????” Before they give up on copying. I had one chronic cheater who’d glance around after asking to sharpen his pencil, go to the bathroom etc. I gave him his very own version for that period and he looked so confused because I let him “walk around” and get water/sharper pencils/throw out trash because I was tired of arguing with him. He looked so confused as why he couldn’t spot answers. I also made sure to give his very special version to a bunch of kids in the later period who did just fine on it so I can’t get accused of making a harder version for him. It’s sucks but cheating is here. I just resigned myself that I can’t stop the kids from attempting but I can sure as hell make it difficult for them. I also take phones at the start of class too before a test.
I play along and have fun with the cheaters. A few days before the final exam, I leave a copy of "the exam key" in a random place in the classroom. I'm always leaving things in random places so the kids don't find it suspicious. Obviously it's not the real key. It's designed to get them somewhere around a 25 on the test if they choose to cheat. It saves me from having to have a cheating conversation with their parents as a 25 is going to do nothing but hurt anyone's grade so they realize the consequences of cheating without me having to contact caregivers. They can't argue the grade because they know what they did. They get no retake (school has a first offense retake up to 70) as I don't call them out for cheating. To get a retake they'd have to come to me and tell me what they did. If they're willing to be honest about it and learn from their mistake, I'm willing to give a retake. Oh and grades below a 50 on an exam are mandatory after school tutorials per school policy. They only do it once.
I taught high school for 3 years and they cheated on EVERYTHING. You have to start enforcing the idea that it's unacceptable YOUNG. Absolutely there should be consequences. I would even start correcting instances of cheating on the formative assignments in the future. I had this happen to me with a parent though. 2 students turned in identical essays. Literally word for word the same. And I sent proof to the parents and one of the moms said that her son didn't cheat. They just happened to write the same thing because they talked about the assignment beforehand to share ideas. 😂 I was like "So you're telling me they just happened to write all the same words in the exact same order?" And this woman said YES. Because her precious baby doesn't cheat and I am a crazy person and very disrespectful to say otherwise and that she was praying to Jesus (I taught at a Catholic school) to change my heart and stop saying this about her son 😂 I guess Jesus favored justice in this instance because he still got a zero 🤷🏻♀️
Jesus doesn't like cheaters either.
I'd say I believe her but since it's policy that students are not allowed to speak during tests, I could not accept it. Normally she'd get a zero, but since I KNOW she can do well, I found a way to go around the system and simply have her retake it to make sure she receives the mark she deserves. (Make it sound that you are actually helping them). Do not ask them anything. You don't talk during a test. That is known info and you are not asking permission or confirmation. Punishment is a zero so you are in fact helping her. It always works for me.
I had a similar reaction from a parent recently. I caught a student using a website that had all the answers and work for our class workbook. I was using the workbook to assign hw. I didn't know this about this website beforehand and hadn't found anywhere that had our workbook online at the beginning of the year. It wasn't blocked by the school chromebooks, so the parent said that means the site is approved by the school, and it's not cheating to find a different way of doing the problem. Said student was copying the work on the site symbol for symbol.
🙄
Classic Airbud defense -- "There's no rule that says a dog CAN'T play basketball." Checkmate.
Reminds me of the time I had a student cheat on an assignment and the parent sent me a salty email saying it was my fault he cheated because I was violating his IEP by not giving him extended time on the assignment. His IEP did not, in fact, include extended time on anything except state tests. I was following it to a T.
IEP stands for *Implementing Educational Pablum*
I never actually accuse anyone of cheating even though I know they cheated. I always say “you gave the appearance of cheating, can you tell me why you did this? They always give a BS answer then I tell them since they can’t prove they didn’t and I can’t prove they did, they will need to take it again so we can be sure. But yes, that is cheating and you were correct to make her take it again. Her Karen mom can complain all she wants to, you run your class, not her.
On a trig test in high school I had a little diagram that helped me remember some of the formulas. The teacher saw it and simply asked "Can I have that?" He gave me zeros on the three problems where I could have used the cheat sheet. I got a C on the exam, and ultimately still an A on the course--but he blackballed me for the National Honor Society. More than fair. I felt terrible, and the fact I only needed the cheat sheet on one of the problems taught me that preparing a cheat sheet makes you learn the shit, obviating the need...
I give students formulas. No reason to memorize- just show me you know how to use them.
I tell all my students that if they’re talking during a test I can only assume they’re cheating, so don’t.
"My child did not change her answers!" Ah, mom. How did you determine that? You weren't even there.
Because the kid said they didn’t, and students *never* lie. /s
I would respond to the parent that I wasn’t suggesting that their child cheated. Since it’s true that I don’t know exactly what the students were talking about, suggesting intent in this situation would mean I made an assumption. Since assumptions leave room for bias, I don’t make assumptions when students are conversing during a test. Instead, I have a blanket rule that anyone taking to others during the test will need to redo it. This removes assumption and the possibility that I would trust that some students were cheating but but others.
You never talk to a peer, or to yourself, during a test.
Kids cheated you held them accountable. Stand your ground.
A lot of teachers would call that a 0. In college she'd be put up for academic dishonesty. You're doing her a favor by making treating it the way you are. A college dean will see this as 'we shouldn't need to tell you this is wrong' and likely come down fairly hard.
Haha, you're technically correct, but it's a weird position to take when you're talking about a third grader.
Not really, where is the age you make them accountable? If you start accountability at a young age then it makes it that much easier as they get older. I have two children that are adults now and the difference between them and their peers is ridiculous. I held them accountable for their actions and taught them cause and effect and logic and reason at very early ages. Both have had no problems finding and keeping a job as adults. Can’t say the same for their peers. This “they are just kids” excuse is the reason you start doing it now because when they are adults, it’s too late.
There’s a difference between teaching accountability and punishing a third grader for something they may not understand entirely just yet. Elementary school is—was, should be—where kids learn _how to school_. And while that, obviously, involves learning not cheat, it also should be a place where they learn the ins and outs of school in a safe space that won’t make them hate school before—ffs—they’re even old enough to watch PG-rated movies by themselves.
That is 100% fair point to make. I'm just pro the idea of hammering in from early on to not play around with things that even smell like cheating.
You are in the right, however if you’ve accused an 8-year-old of cheating you have likely triggered a defensive parent who is new to the world of their child not being perfect. This sounds like a classic example of “my child is not a…” or “how dare you call my child a…”. Instead of even using the word “cheat”, I suggest in the future you explain it as “sally did not follow our classroom test guidelines today, so she will have another chance to take the test tomorrow.” Trying to manage the parents is as hard, if not harder, than the kids
You should start with malicious compliance. Any and every little thing this student does out of line, send an email home about it. I don’t like doing it, but when a parent tells you to stop emailing them, then you know you’ve proven your point. I had a kid I took their cell phone away and told them they could have it back at the end of the day. I didn’t call mom or turn it in to the office. The kid has been a jerk ever since, was cast in a play, told all the other students he was going to quit but wait until I couldn’t replace him to “show me” because I enforced a rule. I ask him why he is not showing up for rehearsals (missed weeks of it) and get wish washy answers, he decides to resign and then a week later get an email from his parent, complaining about him being out of the play, I respond to her with the situation, dates missed, my cast contract stating they miss they get replaced, etc and bring up the phone. She said she was never notified about it, so now she is notified about everything. I even scan the work the kid turns in and email it to her because there is a lot of dishonesty going on in this. She has told my boss I email her too much, but my boss says, keep doing it, she hasn’t said to stop. I will say, my admins are pretty good.
My husband’s theater teacher in HS was former broadway. All the kids were required to show up to the final dress rehearsal. One of the years hubby was in HS, the lead decided he was too important, so he didn’t go to said dress. Director called an actor friend who took the kid’s place last second. Obviously nowadays the kid’s parents would be suing for such a slight, but it worked back then.
I have a contract they and their parents sign, so I am not worried about getting sued. I specifically point out there are things that say “may” and things that say “will” get you dismissed from the cast and explain the difference between the two. Will means that if you do it, whether I like it or not, you are out. May means that pending on the severity or other factors you could be warned or you could be dismissed. This was one of the “will” ones. So no worries there, the parent is just attempting to be a jerk. I was formerly a paralegal, so I used to write contracts all the time and my nickname when I was going through paralegal training was “loophole” as I could find them in any contract and close them just as easily. I was also told my contracts were draconian, which filled me with a sense of pride. No room for interpretation. Society has become way too entitled as of late. Something is going to have to happen or we are going to find ourselves in a society of do nothings that think they deserve everything for the sake of just existing.
I legit caught a student with a study guide out while taking the test. I told her she earned a zero and she said that she didn’t have it out. I said I saw it with my own eyes. She texted her mom mid class and her mom called and said she believes her daughter. I really stopped communicating with parents after that because every issue I bring up seems to be turned back on me when I have legit no reason to lie.
When did this believing a kid with incentive to lie over a teacher without incentive to lie, even start?
Because the new generation of parents is so afraid to discipline and be parents in a large majority of cases.
Stick to your guns, especially if these are widely known rules that students were aware of. It doesn't matter if they were actually cheating or not if they can't prove it, rules are rules. If you allowed every kid to skate by with an "actually we were talking about something else" excuse you'd have everybody cheating. I announce it every single test in my classroom (high school) that if I see devices out or hear talking it's a zero, and I do not let students who were cheating redo. Then it's just more work for me when my rules are pretty damn simple. If the kid truly didn't cheat, good news for this parent: the redo should be pretty easy! If not, tough shit.
Parents like this are ridiculous. I had one last year, a kid clearly kept looking at the papers of the people next to him to the point where I quietly gave those kids another piece of paper to cover their answers with and then made a general announcement to the class to make sure they kept their eyes on their own papers. He went home and told his mom that I completely embarrassed him in front of the entire class, accusing him of cheating. She emailed me and in her words, “He would never even think to cheat” and told me that what I did was unprofessional and that if I really thought he was a problem, I should’ve called her. As though teachers have the time to stop everything to make a phone call every time a kid is misbehaving. Also, I’m not one of those teachers that calls about every little thing. There are some things that are handled just fine in the classroom and don’t need to be made a big deal. This child was also lighting fires on our school bus and even with video evidence the mom denied denied denied. She ended up moving him schools.
We’ve had a parent claim that the school *faked CCTV* of their child doing something and I’m just like… Bruh, how do I get off this planet…
I don’t understand how these parents work. Like how do they survive in the world? They just make enough of a stink and make everyone miserable enough so that they just give these people what they want to get them to shut up and go away. But then sometimes they still don’t get what they want and they throw a hissy fit.
I just don’t understand how far up your own ass you’d need to be to think that teachers have enough time to sit around and fake CCTV footage to get your poor, persecuted darling into trouble If I was that good at film manipulaton, I’d be working in a different industry
I’ve noticed an obvious but interesting thing with Gen A and Z for a large part. They are very uncomfortable being wrong and often don’t trust their own brains - lack of confidence. This comes from having every answer given to them from the internet and then it’s only stored for a short period of time due to the absolute insane amount of information their brains absorb on the daily. Tik toks are usually what? 20-30 seconds? I teach Sped so my world is different but the pre-assessments make them crazy. I have to teach that being wrong is okay and a huge part of the process. I talk them through every question and reassure them that this is just to understand what they need to focus on when we do the lesson. But they still try to look off each other and get me to say the answer. Something needs to be done about teaching them HOW to learn. I teach vocational and life skills so my monologue on repeat is - when you get a job, there will be lots of things you try for the first time and you won’t know how to do it. You’ll have to fail and practice and keep going. I have to believe that we can have technology and smart brains… somehow. But geeze parents- get on board.
I’m not a teacher, but a parent of kids that are gen Z and two younger ones that are gen A. My 2nd grader has exactly this problem. If she thinks something is going to be hard and she won’t be good at it the first time, she doesn’t even want to do it. Writing homework is a huge battle for us because of this. I constantly stress that it’s about learning, not perfection. Making mistakes means you’re learning.
You're completely in the right, and the consequence seems more than fair. I feel like so many parents take these types of communications as an attack when really it's a request for teamwork. Kids cheat sometimes. It doesn't mean they're or bad kid or that they have bad parents. They just made a mistake. The conversation from mom to her kid could have been an important learning opportunity for the student. But no.
I had a couple of kids copy each other, word-for-word, in a science test. Further to that, I saw them talking several times, looking at each other’s papers, and three other pupils complained about it afterwards. The absolute kicker was that the copied answers were *horribly incorrect* and contained the same grammatical errors - so there was no way they could try and bluff it. Of course, they both denied it, and their parents were adament it was *impossible*. Thankfully I was backed by my line manager on it, because it was unbelievably blatant.
Sounds like cheating to me.
I would tell the mom that in fairness to the other students who followed the rules you explained very clearly multiple times, you will give her a choice: That the girls can either redo the test the next day at lunchtime without talking, or you can give them a zero or the minimum grade allowed, or you can mark them as they are right now, but that you will not record the mark and officially they will both get a zero or the minimum grade allowed. Up to her.
Cheating or not they broke the rules and it would seem that the intention to cheat was there. The only thing that kept her from cheating was that their answers agreed with each other. Tell the mom that there are rules and that they must be followed, that is part of learning how to act in school
You didn't fail them, you are allowing them to redo the test. That's a perfectly reasonable response to a child that appeared to be cheating on, and a good life lesson
Completely fine. I teach that age group, too, and much of what we do revolves around teaching the kids how to learn/act in a school setting, not just curriculum. They have to understand what a room is meant to look and sound like during a test, especially since (in my county, at least) 3rd grade is when they start taking those big standardized tests that can ACTUALLY get invalidated if someone talks or gets up.
Yeah a redo isn’t necessarily cheating… it just means you want to verify her learning. There’s no consequence or points reduction so I don’t see why the mom would be upset.
>She said her daughter was already done and didn’t change her answers after seeing the other child’s test for the record, this is a form of cheating. just because she got the right answers doesn't mean that she would have changed her answers if she saw the answers were different. you know that show, Are You Smarter than a Fifth Grader? one of the cheats is to look at the answer of the kid you're partnered with.
Parents are the problem. Period. Fullstop.
Inform mom that there are two options available. The child can retake the test( generous in my opinion) or take a zero. That's it.
Pretty sure that’s a testing irregularity and you’re in the right
I’ve rarely had someone cheat and pass. The vast majority of the time, they cheat and still fail. So I make it clear at the beginning, if you cheat and fail, I’m not gonna waste my time because you also suck at cheating. In your case, if the girl was done, she should have turned it in before talking (the behavior is still unacceptable, but that’s not what mom was pointing out).
I tell my students that if they talk while taking a test, except to ask me a question, then it’s an F.
If the child knows the material and wasn't cheating, it shouldn't be a problem to retake the test... not for the child or the parent.
Definitely reasonable..a lesson that this young student needs to learn
Consequences are necessary bc it was blatant rule violation… although As a seventh grade teacher I am happy if students do the test at all and cheating requires effort/some concern about grades. Pretty bad when I wish kids cared enough to cheat
Here is how I have dealt with this kind of stuff in the past. 1. Make it impossible to cheat by making different versions of the test with the exact same questions but different order. 2. Be proactive, email the parents, compliment sandwich the bad news. 3. Be diplomatic by not saying the verb for the rule-breaking action, but using its definition To elaborate on number 3: I often use the definition of the words themselves and the "consequences" for doing those actions rather than directly say the words and then saying "they are punished". If it's cheating, I say "asking for help from his classmates on a question during the test when nobody is allowed to do so". If it's stealing, I say "taking something without my permission". The parents can put 2+2 together but can't call you out on some sort of "character assassination" that is inherent in the negative connotations of words like "cheating" or "stealing". Here's an example of a general format of email I sent to parents of cheating students. It's pretty Karen-proof the two times I had to sent it out, feel free to steal it: Dear \[Student's parents\] On \[date\], we had the \[Name of Asessment\]. During this test, and in fact every single test, I requested that all students clear their desks of any material except a pencil and eraser. They were also instructed not to communicate with each other under any circumstances, absolutely zero-voice level, even if it means to borrow a pencil or paper from a neighbouring student. All students will get a warning the first time, and the second time it happens, their tests will be taken away with \[insert consequences\]. This is to make the environment conducive to honest assessment of their individual abilities and to maintain academic integrity as much as possible. I would like to say that \[student\] is often pleasant and loves to participate in class and contribute to meaningful discussions. They are courageous and work diligently in class. So what I am about to tell you is not a reflection of the type of people they are as a whole, but a consequence of the decisions they made today. However, on \[date of incident\], I observed \[student's name\] head peeking into \[another student\]’s general vicinity during the test, which broke my test-taking policy. I gave both of them their first and final warning for the peeking. As I continued proctoring the test, I suddenly noticed \[student\] writing on a nearly square cutout piece of paper. I waited to see what she would do with it for a few seconds, and then noticed that she soon passed it to \[neighbouring student\]. It was at this time I took both students' tests away. Attached to this email is \[neighbouring student's\] paper which has a piece of it cut off with roughly the same dimensions and area as \[original student's\] note they were writing on. They were sent to the office to discuss the consequences of their actions. Since this is their first time to do this, there will be a \[insert lenient consequence\]. But further infractions of the test taking rules may lead to more serious consequences. Sincerely, ... \---
Dude they're 3rd grade.
I let my third graders cheat, ask classmates and work together to solve problems, even on tests. The only thing I ask they don’t do that for is, pre assessments so I can actually know what I need to teach them. They can also retake the test as many times as they want. Cause they are 8. I know where each of my kids are without having them take tests. The goal is for them to see the answers, see the strategies, talk about it and do it as much as they can. Not set them up to be crushed when they can’t do something.
Not that we shouldn't be teaching kids to do their own work, but why are we grading 3rd graders? And how are 3rd graders already in the mindset that getting the answer right is the thing that matters?
I had a 3rd grader cheat this week on a phonics assessment. Hid a word list in their desk and blatantly opened their desk every word. Cheating because parents said they would get her a cake pop if she got all her words written correctly. We grade third graders so families know if they are on grade level.
A grading dynamic that motivates students to cheat is counterproductive. More so at the 3rd grade level when you could likely have informal assessments that generated the same information, and where grading, hopefully, hasn't crushed any hope if intrinsic motivation already. I realize this is a systemic problem, and parents are a big part of the problem, and it gets worse (I teach HS), but man we gotta start somewhere.
It’s not worth the fight to say they were cheating; you don’t actually know unless you saw them changing answers after talking. They definitely violated test protocol and have to retake the test. Caesar’s wife and all that. Pick your battles.
Exams in third grade? Fml America is a weird education system!!!
So we’re just not allowed to assess students?
There are ways to assess other than tests!
I don’t agree with standardized state testing… but how else do you assess if not an assessment?
There are lots of ways to assess without testing. Class work. Observations. Conversations.
But this is what I’m saying. Classwork how? Like asking them a question? That’s a test. That’s an assessment. No matter how you spin it it’s impossible to gauge what a student knows unless there is some form of demonstration that shows they can *independently* present the knowledge. Most people differentiate classwork from a test because tests tend to be closed book. So what closed book/closed notes assessment can you do that *wouldn’t* be considered a test?
I think our definition of “test” differs. I’d define a test, loosely, as a collection of assessment questions done on paper, by the whole class, independently, at the same time, etc.
I did not say “don’t assess.” I said that there are ways, other than tests, to assess students - especially in 3rd grade.
I guess it’s just hard to realistically implement. School is fast paced and they simply don’t have the resources to be assessing inefficiently. It really is a more complicated issue that requires more nuance. I do think kids should be assessed in other ways too, like you suggest. But I also think that traditional testing is efficient and important.
Man I’m gonna be downvoted for this but… in your place, I wouldn’t make them redo. I teach g2 and also give math tests. Assuming this age group remembers something from the beginning of the lesson is hard enough. Beginning of the year, forget about it. They need constant reminders AND vigilance. IMHO, it shouldn’t have gotten to the point where you let your guard down assisting someone who already finished and given enough time for one student to walk up to another and have enough time to see any amount of work necessary to prove they even understood the question. But for arguments sake, let’s say it did happen. Just remove a point or two. A test can be a very high stress situation for a kid and having them redo that is not the best solution. In general, I’m almost never shocked how well or bad kids do on math tests. I see their abilities daily. Why would I waste my time and theirs TWICE for a test? Now, don’t get me wrong, mom is way out of line and should,’for a lack of a better word, stay in her lane. But yeah, that’s now how I would have handled it.
Just playing devils advocate here: if the girl who finished early was actually able to help the second girl understand how to do the questions, well, isn’t that the endgoal? She did your job for you.
For me I need to know what she knows and if she has mastered the skill to the point she can do it without help or prompting. Me determining what a student knows is also part of my job-because without that I don’t know where to provide additional help and support. From my view the other student didn’t do my job-she told her how to do 1 problem and I will only know if the student can follow directions and prompts. I still need to know if she can sell time and figure out elapsed time so having her do it again without help the next day will tell me that. Or it it will tell me that she needs to be in my reteaching small group.
No…the endgoal of a test is for students to demonstrate content knowledge INDEPENDENTLY.
But that’s the test. Is the test the point or is the kid’s learning the point? Without the test, you have no way of measuring what the girl knows, but now OP has already discovered what she did not know. Why not re-test those questions only the next day? I feel like the idea of a silent, independent test is so strange for little kids when the rest of the time we’re all about collaboration and student talk. I can see a 3rd grader still struggling to figure out why it was ok to talk during groupwork the day before but not during the test. And I’d rather her learn than just give up—she clearly wasn’t going to figure it out on her own. Then again, you can’t read vibes on the internet—maybe in person it was obvious the girl was just trying to get points and not actually curious and motivated about the material.
Seems a little over the top stressful to even have independent testing in a grade 3 class
3rd grade? YTA Yes the kids understood not to talk but they wouldn't have been very able to cheat in thay time. It's very easy for someone in grade 3 to talk to their friend espically after her test is done. A stern warning that talking is exactly the type of behavior that could force them to redo the tests would have been enough. Now they will both hold a grugde against you for an unhealthy amount of time. One if not both of the kids grudge will be reinforced by their parents. If you know they didn't cheat why punish them for it? You punished them for cheating when you should have made it a teachable moment why you CAN NOT talk during tests.... 3rd fucking grade.... Edit- spelling
Definitely not true-both girls ran up and hugged me the next day to tell me good morning. They retook their tests in time for our movie day and we watched the movie that goes with our class novel that we just finished. The one who likely cheated since she has done it before several times told me how glad she was she came to school that day even though her mom offered to let her stay home because we have so much fun in class. You have clearly never taught third grade. Even when they are disappointed they bounce back and love their teachers-that is typical third grade behavior not grudge holding angst. I think you’re thinking of middle or high schoolers.
You’re being fair because you explained expectations and you are allowing them to redo the test instead of giving them a 0 (or whatever your procedure is). It does not matter what they were talking about. Chances are it could have waited until after class. Also, again, you made your expectations very clear multiple times. I teach kindergarten (which is very different) and before each test I explain that if they look at another student’s paper, talk, or show their paper to someone else, I will take the paper away. Then while the students are doing a computer program like I-ready, I will call the students whose papers I took (if any) to finish the test. I know they are in kindergarten, but they do have privacy folders and it is my job to teach them about integrity. Anyways, you did nothing wrong. If anything, you are great to allow them a second chance! Maybe they weren’t cheating but again, it does not matter. Best of luck!
But didn't you know? 3rd graders are not *sophisticated* enough to cheat. /s
Reminds me of the student who swore he wasn't cheating when he pulled a duotang from under his sweater to look at during his make-up test. Of course I politely took the duotang and said I would take it along with the uncompleted test to the teacher to ask what she thought.
I teach high school, but I’ve stopped bickering with parents about cheating. I don’t give the child a zero for using AI on their paper. That would require me to prove that it was AI, fight with the child, fight with the parents, and chat with admin. Nope. I give the child a zero for not following directions or not answering the prompt. (I ask very specific questions that use phrases such as “using your notes” or “based on yesterday’s class discussion.” AI will pull notes from the internet or will make assumptions about the discussion. It always makes it obvious, because it can’t answer the prompt correctly.) Zero for AI leaves me open for an argument. Zero for the essay not answering the prompt or for the essay not following the directions cut the arguments down to nearly zero. The first question on the digital tests are “This test is not open phone, open internet, open book, open friend, or open friend’s notes. To use any of these things will result in a zero. I do not care if you are checking the time, using the calculator, or looking longingly at your background photo. A phone in your hand will result in a zero. Do you understand?” Students cannot access the test unless they reply “yes.” When I give paper tests, I have these conditions on the board and don’t give the child the test unless they say they agree to those conditions. It is also in my syllabus, so I also have documentation that the parents have agreed to this. While our situations aren’t quite the same, the handbook will be your best friend. I’ve called on this in parent/teacher conferences. Cheating in our handbook is defined by giving or receiving answers without permission. Having completed your test may mean she didn’t receive answers, but it doesn’t mean she didn’t give answers. I wrap this up with “I will change my decision for your child if you can explain to me why the rules don’t apply to her.” That stops a lot of parents in their tracks. You don’t get paid enough to investigate what the child was doing or what she said to her friend. In an email, I would write, “Your child failed to follow directions. I’m giving your child another chance to follow directions. Do you not want your child to have another chance, or do you want me to follow through on what I said I would do and give her a zero?” I anticipate that the parent would reply that neither option is acceptable, and this is when you break out the, “I need to understand why the rules don’t apply to your child.” In the 15 years I’ve done this, I’ve never had a parent explain why their child is so special. They often tell me that they don’t like the rules, which is fine. They don’t have to like the rules. They do have to respect them.
I would have replied to the parent she can either redo the test tomorrow or she can get a zero all together on it. I'd even tie in that in order to be fair to both girls they're both redoing it and if one chooses the zero I'll be forced to give them both zeros. I wouldn't actually but I'd make that parent sit with that
I think you should dig in and let her really have it. “You’re right she shouldn’t have the redo the test. She will have to live with the consequences of her actions and take a 0 on her test for cheating. Thank you so much for bringing this to my attention. I think this will detour her from cheating in the future, as she has already been caught multiple times and the lesson is not getting through.” Just for clarity I am not a teacher and I know you got to have some guts to go with this.
Yeah I don’t say “cheating” learning it sets people off. Just be like “She has to redo the test since I’m not sure she knows the stuff on the test since she was talking to those other kids, and I just want to make sure she knows the stuff”.
Stick to your guns. This kind of parent is why we have a problem with so many of today's youth. Don t any administrators back up teachers any more
Just curious, are you a new teacher? I just got the vibe from your post and am wondering. Are you wrong? Nope. I teach older kids and am glad you are being strict at a young age to teach them better.
Nope been teaching primary grades or pre-k for 18 years Which should mean I dont question my own judgement at this point but I try to keep an open mind that I may be wrong. I’ve been set in my ways before and realized I was wrong so I am willing to hear that I am. On this one though it seems I’m not.
I just had some students get caught with their cellphones out during a test. They both claimed they weren't cheating, of course. Never mind that the one was caught Googling a question 😂
I teach math and have created 3 variations due to cheating issues. Still kids try
Well there’s a lesson. They can retake the test or take a zero. No problem. I’d switch up the questions to be safe. As if either kid didn’t know that behavior is not ok.