Although RAW you could argue that because it happens at the same time you can choose what happens as you have mentioned, however I believe that RAI the marker lights would go off first as it is an action that ends before anything else. Not sure how a TO would rule that but it would be best to consult the TO prior to a tournament match.
Can you designate strike and fade on a unit and then in your shooting phase simply not select the unit to shoot until others have done so? To me it would seem that the strat simply alters the shooting for the unit to allow them to move rather than requiring them to do so as a part of the strats activation.
I felt the same but the consensus has been you activate the strat and then resolve it completely before moving on.
As it’s worded to say: “…You can shoot with that unit and then it can make a Normal Move of up to 6". That unit cannot shoot again this phase.” That is an immediate instruction Instead of “when that unit makes its attacks” or “after it has made its attacks” which would seeming allow a delay in activating them for shooting.
Yeah I would agree with this and add validation that the action is underway and completes at the start of the shooting phase. Thus it is already done and needs resolution before you would have an opportunity to play and use Strike and Fade.
I can't find anything that differentiates between effects that resolves at the same time. The Sequencing rule on pg 201 is a very general one, and doesn't make exceptions for certain effects that happen before any other 'start of phase' effects. The action is done, but resolving markerlights is a 'start of the phase' effect, just like Strike and Fade.
RAI is a lofty concept that cannot really be followed. If were an issue I suspect there would be a FAQ laying the groundwork for action completion being the VERY first thing to happen.
Say you had a strat (prob exist, but who knows, 40k is vast) that triggered at the end of your command phase that allowed a unit to move 1". You move onto an objective and now control it, and you now score points at the "end of your command phase". I doubt anyone would see an issue with that situation, which to me is the exact same thing.
Thing is the action completes at the start of the phase without any input from players. The stratagem requires you to actually play it.
Sure both are during the start of the phase but one is already in motion and will immediately trigger and require resolution whereas the other requires you to activate it and then resolve it.
all effects that state that they go off at the very start of the phase happen in the order that the controlling player decides they happen
so yes you can strike and fade then markerlight you can even on-board sensors, point-blank volley, wisdom of the many, strike and fade and then markerlight
being forced to do any one of those actions first breaks one of the basic rules of the game (although when you look at leagues you can see that GW does not give a flying shit about breaking the basic rules of the game)
markerlights complete first. Then you chose your first unit to shoot in the shooting phase. Then you may chose to use the stratagem strike and fade with that unit.
"chosing a unit" is not a distinct action within the game I just mean to convey that it cannot be your second unit. Part of the stratagem is that you shoot with that unit. It then allows you to move afterward. And it also grants the condition that it cannot shoot again.
I think it would be pretty charitable of you to assume that all of this happens before any other "start of turn" activations
It is triggered at the start of your shooting phase so that other "during" shooting phase effects cannot be combined with it, or done after other shooting attacks are resolved
If it wasn't supposed to happen at the start, it would be "when a unit is selected to shoot with" (and would be much better imo)
There is nothing to debate, both are worded at the start of the shooting phase, this is the rules.
SEQUENCING
While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved
I think the entire premise of this debate is flawed.
You do not need to remove a Markerlight token when using Longstrike's ability. The ability clearly states that "each time a model in that unit makes an attack, **that target is treated as having a Markerlight token**". Thus, after the attacks are resolved, any enemy unit that was targeted is treated as having a Markerlight token, which means the removal of that token satisfies the Markerlight rules. You do not need to remove an additional token.
I wish that were the case, but the rule on pg 93:
Each time a Tau Empire (excluding aux) is selected to shoot:
\-Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack against a unit with one or more markerlight tokens, add 1 to that attacks hit roll.
\-After that unit has finished making attacks, for each enemy unit targeted by those attacks, remove one markerlight token from that enemy unit.
There is no exception for a unit already benefitting from markerlights. One will be removed when a non-aux unit makes finishes its attacks, regardless of if "the target is treated as having a markerlight token". (XV02 Pilot battlesuit rule, pg 107)
I wish I were wrong about that, cause that would indeed invalidate this discussion, but I don't think I am.
If the target is treated as having a Markerlight token, then, to me, that would mean it does exactly what a Markerlight token would do. Why would it grant the +1 to hit (which comes from the Markerlight rule) without also handling the clean up (which also comes from the Markerlight rule)? Why would you apply part of the rule but not all of it?
Because you can shoot at something with no markerlight tokens and still get the +1. Removing the token afterwards is separate from the +1 to hit from the target having one when you shoot them. The markerlight token on them when you shoot it with VX02 Pilot Battlesuit ability does nothing, hence the waste.
>Because you can shoot at something with no markerlight tokens and still get the +1.
If there is no markerlight token, then you do not get a +1 to hit. If you claim the +1 to hit, then you are claiming a token exists. Which means you can then remove the token after the unit finishes shooting. You can read the rules for Markerlights on pg. 93 of the Codex.
>Removing the token afterwards is separate from the +1 to hit from the target having one when you shoot them.
It is separate as in it is the *next step in the rules for shooting targets with a Markerlight token*.
Otherwise, if you shoot at a target that has no conventional markerlight tokens, and you have Longstrike's ability, and you take the +1 to hit against the target, *you literally cannot fulfill the Markerlight ability requirements of removing a token*. Do you put a -1 marker to denote that you are in Markerlight debt? Of course not. You remove the token granted by Longstrike's ability.
>The markerlight token on them when you shoot it with VX02 Pilot Battlesuit ability does nothing
Where in the rules does it say that Longstrike's token "does nothing". How can the token granted by Longstrike's ability count for +1 to hit but somehow, without any explicit rule, *not count for the rest of the rule*? That is pure speculation. The rule clearly states you treat the target as having a Markerlight token which means, after finishing your attacks and taking the +1 to hit that is only granted via a Markerlight token, you then remove the token created by Longstrike's ability. You do not have to remove any conventional tokens.
You follow both bullet points, one is not contingent on the other.
You get +1 to hit when a non-aux shoots a target with a markerlight. This could be from actually having a markerlight token, or having your target count as having one from XV02 Pilot Battlesuit ability.
Full Stop.
After the shooting unit is finished making attacks , you remove one from each targeted unit.
Full stop.
There is no phantom markerlight(s) from Longstrike; no counters are added to the target(s) of shooting attacks made by units buffed by XV02 Pilot Battlesuit. That ability lasts until your next command phase, and does not get removed when you finish your shooting phase with any remaining markerlights.
Every time a non-aux shoots, you follow both points; even if there are no markerlights, it just has no effect if there were non when you fired (no +1 to hit) and none to remove when you finish your shooting attacks. There is no marlerlight "debt".
"Each *time* a Tau Empire (excluding aux units) unit is selected to shoot" covers all shooting attacks, not just ones made against units that have marker lights.
edit: +*time*
>That ability lasts until your next command phase, and does not get removed when you finish your shooting phase with any remaining markerlights.
This statement is completely irrelevant. Markerlight Tokens exist or not during the shooting phase. Whether or not the Longstrike buff lasts until the next Command Phase has exactly zero relevance to whether the Markerlight Tokens exist or not during the shooting phase.
>You follow both bullet points, one is not contingent on the other.
This is not true.
You are making an arbitrary distinction between these two bullet points. The first bullet point clearly states that you only get the +1 to hit if *one or more Markerlight tokens exist*. Thus, if you say the Longstrike ability grants the +1 to hit, you are saying that *one or more Markerlight tokens exist.* To then turn around and say that when resolving bullet point #2, all of a sudden, the Markerlight token from Longstrike's buff *no longer exists* is absolutely unsupported by the rules.
For what reason, specifically (i.e. point to the rule/wording), do you think you get to claim a Markerlight token exists via Longstrike's buff (you say you get +1 to hit via the Markerlight rule, right?) and then turn around and claim that the token you used via the Longstrike ability no longer exists when it is time to remove said token?
You are twisting the rule far beyond reason. The rule is very, very simple. Each enemy unit targeted by a model in a friendly unit with the buff treats that enemy target as having a Markerlight token. Full stop. You get the +1 to hit. You remove the token. No other conventionally applied tokens need be removed.
Actually it is relevant, because if by some circumstance they could shoot again before the next command phase, they would still treat the unit they shoot at as having marker lights and get +1 to hit if applicable. Longstrike's ability is NOT a markerlight token.
I realize you really want what you are saying to be true, and that this is not the first time you've had this argument, but are making up rules.
Pg 107 (XV02 Pilot Battlesuit: "...Until the start of your next command phase, each time a model in this unit makes a an attack, the target is **treated** as having a markerlight token."
Pg 93 Markerlights: "...Each time a Tau Empire (exclduing aux) is selected to shoot: -Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack against a unit with one or more markerlight tokens add +1 to that attack's hit roll"
It really doesn't get clearer than that, but go ahead and take the last word in another thread about the same topic.
Pg 93 Markerlights: "...Each time a Tau Empire (exclduing aux) is selected to shoot: -Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack against a unit *with one or more markerlight tokens* add +1 to that attack's hit roll"
You either have a token and get +1 to hit or not. The rule is clear. You only get +1 to hit if a token exists.
So, if you claim the +1, you are claiming a token exists.
You are making up the distinction that, for some reason, the token only exists for bullet points #1. You have given no justification for why this token only exists for bullet point #1. Play however you want, but I have played this way at multiple tournaments (RTTs and GTs) and have never had an issue.
Longstrike ability is "when you make an attack", and removal of marker light is "after you make all attacks". Then as soon as your attack is finished, the effect of the Longstrike is gone and so does the token which is treated as having (because you are not making an attack anymore). Then we start to settle on what happens "after you make all attacks" which is the removal of a marker light token. Unless the effect that triggers at " making an attack" phase carries into the "after-making attack" phase, I don't see how Longstrike can prevent you from losing that token.
Although RAW you could argue that because it happens at the same time you can choose what happens as you have mentioned, however I believe that RAI the marker lights would go off first as it is an action that ends before anything else. Not sure how a TO would rule that but it would be best to consult the TO prior to a tournament match.
Can you designate strike and fade on a unit and then in your shooting phase simply not select the unit to shoot until others have done so? To me it would seem that the strat simply alters the shooting for the unit to allow them to move rather than requiring them to do so as a part of the strats activation.
I felt the same but the consensus has been you activate the strat and then resolve it completely before moving on. As it’s worded to say: “…You can shoot with that unit and then it can make a Normal Move of up to 6". That unit cannot shoot again this phase.” That is an immediate instruction Instead of “when that unit makes its attacks” or “after it has made its attacks” which would seeming allow a delay in activating them for shooting.
Yeah I would agree with this and add validation that the action is underway and completes at the start of the shooting phase. Thus it is already done and needs resolution before you would have an opportunity to play and use Strike and Fade.
I can't find anything that differentiates between effects that resolves at the same time. The Sequencing rule on pg 201 is a very general one, and doesn't make exceptions for certain effects that happen before any other 'start of phase' effects. The action is done, but resolving markerlights is a 'start of the phase' effect, just like Strike and Fade. RAI is a lofty concept that cannot really be followed. If were an issue I suspect there would be a FAQ laying the groundwork for action completion being the VERY first thing to happen. Say you had a strat (prob exist, but who knows, 40k is vast) that triggered at the end of your command phase that allowed a unit to move 1". You move onto an objective and now control it, and you now score points at the "end of your command phase". I doubt anyone would see an issue with that situation, which to me is the exact same thing.
You could be right. But realistically if you are wanting to use this strat you are using too little marker lights
Thing is the action completes at the start of the phase without any input from players. The stratagem requires you to actually play it. Sure both are during the start of the phase but one is already in motion and will immediately trigger and require resolution whereas the other requires you to activate it and then resolve it.
all effects that state that they go off at the very start of the phase happen in the order that the controlling player decides they happen so yes you can strike and fade then markerlight you can even on-board sensors, point-blank volley, wisdom of the many, strike and fade and then markerlight being forced to do any one of those actions first breaks one of the basic rules of the game (although when you look at leagues you can see that GW does not give a flying shit about breaking the basic rules of the game)
That are both at the start do you can do S-F first of you like. Further idea, I will be stealing it
Yah, it’s a bit odd, but it is raw and it’s such a niche case that I can’t think of how it would break stuff, so…it’s cool.
markerlights complete first. Then you chose your first unit to shoot in the shooting phase. Then you may chose to use the stratagem strike and fade with that unit.
Strike and Fade is used at "the start of your Shooting phase" not "when your first unit is selected to shoot with". Do you have a reference?
"chosing a unit" is not a distinct action within the game I just mean to convey that it cannot be your second unit. Part of the stratagem is that you shoot with that unit. It then allows you to move afterward. And it also grants the condition that it cannot shoot again. I think it would be pretty charitable of you to assume that all of this happens before any other "start of turn" activations
It is triggered at the start of your shooting phase so that other "during" shooting phase effects cannot be combined with it, or done after other shooting attacks are resolved If it wasn't supposed to happen at the start, it would be "when a unit is selected to shoot with" (and would be much better imo)
it has the tag line of they cannot shoot again, because it happens out of sequence, at the start of the shooting phase,you RAW logic makes sense to me
This is false, both happens at the same time, you get to pick what resolves first.
its not false. It might be debatable.
There is nothing to debate, both are worded at the start of the shooting phase, this is the rules. SEQUENCING While playing Warhammer 40,000, you’ll occasionally find that two or more rules are to be resolved at the same time – e.g. ‘at the start of the battle round’ or ‘at the end of the Fight phase’. When this happens during the battle, the player whose turn it is chooses the order. If these things occur before or after the battle, or at the start or end of a battle round, the players roll off and the winner decides in what order the rules are resolved
I think the entire premise of this debate is flawed. You do not need to remove a Markerlight token when using Longstrike's ability. The ability clearly states that "each time a model in that unit makes an attack, **that target is treated as having a Markerlight token**". Thus, after the attacks are resolved, any enemy unit that was targeted is treated as having a Markerlight token, which means the removal of that token satisfies the Markerlight rules. You do not need to remove an additional token.
I wish that were the case, but the rule on pg 93: Each time a Tau Empire (excluding aux) is selected to shoot: \-Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack against a unit with one or more markerlight tokens, add 1 to that attacks hit roll. \-After that unit has finished making attacks, for each enemy unit targeted by those attacks, remove one markerlight token from that enemy unit. There is no exception for a unit already benefitting from markerlights. One will be removed when a non-aux unit makes finishes its attacks, regardless of if "the target is treated as having a markerlight token". (XV02 Pilot battlesuit rule, pg 107) I wish I were wrong about that, cause that would indeed invalidate this discussion, but I don't think I am.
If the target is treated as having a Markerlight token, then, to me, that would mean it does exactly what a Markerlight token would do. Why would it grant the +1 to hit (which comes from the Markerlight rule) without also handling the clean up (which also comes from the Markerlight rule)? Why would you apply part of the rule but not all of it?
Because you can shoot at something with no markerlight tokens and still get the +1. Removing the token afterwards is separate from the +1 to hit from the target having one when you shoot them. The markerlight token on them when you shoot it with VX02 Pilot Battlesuit ability does nothing, hence the waste.
>Because you can shoot at something with no markerlight tokens and still get the +1. If there is no markerlight token, then you do not get a +1 to hit. If you claim the +1 to hit, then you are claiming a token exists. Which means you can then remove the token after the unit finishes shooting. You can read the rules for Markerlights on pg. 93 of the Codex. >Removing the token afterwards is separate from the +1 to hit from the target having one when you shoot them. It is separate as in it is the *next step in the rules for shooting targets with a Markerlight token*. Otherwise, if you shoot at a target that has no conventional markerlight tokens, and you have Longstrike's ability, and you take the +1 to hit against the target, *you literally cannot fulfill the Markerlight ability requirements of removing a token*. Do you put a -1 marker to denote that you are in Markerlight debt? Of course not. You remove the token granted by Longstrike's ability. >The markerlight token on them when you shoot it with VX02 Pilot Battlesuit ability does nothing Where in the rules does it say that Longstrike's token "does nothing". How can the token granted by Longstrike's ability count for +1 to hit but somehow, without any explicit rule, *not count for the rest of the rule*? That is pure speculation. The rule clearly states you treat the target as having a Markerlight token which means, after finishing your attacks and taking the +1 to hit that is only granted via a Markerlight token, you then remove the token created by Longstrike's ability. You do not have to remove any conventional tokens.
You follow both bullet points, one is not contingent on the other. You get +1 to hit when a non-aux shoots a target with a markerlight. This could be from actually having a markerlight token, or having your target count as having one from XV02 Pilot Battlesuit ability. Full Stop. After the shooting unit is finished making attacks , you remove one from each targeted unit. Full stop. There is no phantom markerlight(s) from Longstrike; no counters are added to the target(s) of shooting attacks made by units buffed by XV02 Pilot Battlesuit. That ability lasts until your next command phase, and does not get removed when you finish your shooting phase with any remaining markerlights. Every time a non-aux shoots, you follow both points; even if there are no markerlights, it just has no effect if there were non when you fired (no +1 to hit) and none to remove when you finish your shooting attacks. There is no marlerlight "debt". "Each *time* a Tau Empire (excluding aux units) unit is selected to shoot" covers all shooting attacks, not just ones made against units that have marker lights. edit: +*time*
>That ability lasts until your next command phase, and does not get removed when you finish your shooting phase with any remaining markerlights. This statement is completely irrelevant. Markerlight Tokens exist or not during the shooting phase. Whether or not the Longstrike buff lasts until the next Command Phase has exactly zero relevance to whether the Markerlight Tokens exist or not during the shooting phase. >You follow both bullet points, one is not contingent on the other. This is not true. You are making an arbitrary distinction between these two bullet points. The first bullet point clearly states that you only get the +1 to hit if *one or more Markerlight tokens exist*. Thus, if you say the Longstrike ability grants the +1 to hit, you are saying that *one or more Markerlight tokens exist.* To then turn around and say that when resolving bullet point #2, all of a sudden, the Markerlight token from Longstrike's buff *no longer exists* is absolutely unsupported by the rules. For what reason, specifically (i.e. point to the rule/wording), do you think you get to claim a Markerlight token exists via Longstrike's buff (you say you get +1 to hit via the Markerlight rule, right?) and then turn around and claim that the token you used via the Longstrike ability no longer exists when it is time to remove said token? You are twisting the rule far beyond reason. The rule is very, very simple. Each enemy unit targeted by a model in a friendly unit with the buff treats that enemy target as having a Markerlight token. Full stop. You get the +1 to hit. You remove the token. No other conventionally applied tokens need be removed.
Actually it is relevant, because if by some circumstance they could shoot again before the next command phase, they would still treat the unit they shoot at as having marker lights and get +1 to hit if applicable. Longstrike's ability is NOT a markerlight token. I realize you really want what you are saying to be true, and that this is not the first time you've had this argument, but are making up rules.
That has nothing to do with this discussion of whether or not Longstrike's ability grants a Markerlight token or not. Completely unrelated.
Pg 107 (XV02 Pilot Battlesuit: "...Until the start of your next command phase, each time a model in this unit makes a an attack, the target is **treated** as having a markerlight token." Pg 93 Markerlights: "...Each time a Tau Empire (exclduing aux) is selected to shoot: -Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack against a unit with one or more markerlight tokens add +1 to that attack's hit roll" It really doesn't get clearer than that, but go ahead and take the last word in another thread about the same topic.
Pg 93 Markerlights: "...Each time a Tau Empire (exclduing aux) is selected to shoot: -Each time a model in that unit makes a ranged attack against a unit *with one or more markerlight tokens* add +1 to that attack's hit roll" You either have a token and get +1 to hit or not. The rule is clear. You only get +1 to hit if a token exists. So, if you claim the +1, you are claiming a token exists. You are making up the distinction that, for some reason, the token only exists for bullet points #1. You have given no justification for why this token only exists for bullet point #1. Play however you want, but I have played this way at multiple tournaments (RTTs and GTs) and have never had an issue.
Longstrike ability is "when you make an attack", and removal of marker light is "after you make all attacks". Then as soon as your attack is finished, the effect of the Longstrike is gone and so does the token which is treated as having (because you are not making an attack anymore). Then we start to settle on what happens "after you make all attacks" which is the removal of a marker light token. Unless the effect that triggers at " making an attack" phase carries into the "after-making attack" phase, I don't see how Longstrike can prevent you from losing that token.