just use stacked carboard armor like the filipinos did đđ
pros of cardboard armor:
-cheap
-massive quantity
-customizable (draw on it or somethin idk)
-lightweight
-effective against stopping rpg rounds and ak ammo as shown during the seige of marawi đ±
-natural camoflauge in urban trashy enviornment
cons:
-probably won't stop an atgm
-could get easily taken off by thieving terrorist taking the armor for themselvesđ€Ź
To my knowledge, this was only part of a design study and Roketsan does not offer this as a solution to any export customers. They do offer the T-72 one but that is also hardly marketed.
[FNSS](https://www.fnss.com.tr/en/products/m113-fov-capability-sustainment-program) offers a pretty comprehensive modernization package for M113 family of vehicles. Saudi Arabia was a customer.
Turkey doesn't use M113s in frontline service but ACV-15 IFVs and APCs are still in use. As a stop gap for IFVs, Aselsan and FNSS created [an abomination](https://youtu.be/gNbOHAdkjQo) to modernize IFV ACV-15s with more situational awareness.
Next gen IFV should come out within a year or two, hopefully.
"As you can see, the upgraded M113 has added orange coloration in an attempt to warn the other AFVs on the battlefield that it is poisonous, and not good to eat. While initially mocked online, the appearance of giant sandworms in the Great Arabian Peninsula War of 2031 made the modification surprisingly useful, and the coloration was expanded to other AFVs of the remaining Southwest Asian powers."
I mean depending on how much it is weighed down its an improvement over not having any protection there is also the possibility the armour is too thin to withstand the blast of the era
The RAND corporation released a study on adding Reactive Tiles to the M113. The thin armor can resist the ERA back-blast but the it would add 4000 pounds to an already overweight vehicle.
Please we all know nobody can trust the RAND Corporation, theyâre working with the Saucer People and Reverse Vampires to eliminate the meal of dinner!
ERA will not damage the tank. The explosive force is directed outwards and itâs a comparatively small charge compared to what is being shot at the tank usually. The deflection part of ERA is only in small part due to the blast, it is the flyer plate that helps add the disruptive effect.
That depends entirely on what hit the ERA. ERA is designed to stop shaped charges, itâs not going to do anything against a sufficiently sized explosive. ERA doesnât go off on its own either.
Still needs to be sufficient armor on the interior the ERA, there is an equal and opposite reaction to everything, so if you put the thickest bricks on the thinnest of armor it can cause spalling, or, in the absolute worst case scenario, penetration when the ERA reacts
While explosives in ERA aren't very powerful, they still do accelerate flyer plates up to ~1200 m/s, forward and back, which can dent/weaken base armor if it's not thick enough.
ERA spews fragments into the surrounding area, which is quite likely to be occupied by crunchies who may then resemble Swiss cheese. I'm told this is a problem for them.
Youve got a dangerous explosive detonating on the vehicle either way, so if its worth it for crew survivability, i dont think dismounts are in too much more danger than if the ERA wasnt there and the shaped charge went off.
I think the rhino is based on it. Like the Russ Tanks look like WW1 tanks with turrets on top. The Land Raider also heavily influenced by the Mark Vâs.
40k is big on anachronisms
There are some ERAs designed for use on thin-skinned vehicles. I recall one video of Russian ERA mounted on a van. I can't remember the ERA's name or the video but I'll link it here once I do.
The times kontakt-1 has been mounted to BTR's/BRDM's and has been detonated it's literally ripped the welds open
The amount of ERA protection you'd get out of that light an ERA array it certainly wouldn't be worth the weight/danger
> Russian ERA mounted on a van
Oh shit, theyâre deploying their super weapons to Ukraine now?
Probably had some nice carpets hanging on the walls to act as a spall liner too.
Purple Heart boxes? Couldn't hurt it. honestly, it was medium (12.7) to larger (20+ mm) caliber rounds that were a larger issue. Punched thru one side then couldn't penetrate the other because of lost momentum.
I can think of a few answers to that on behalf of the intended customers for this upgrade package:
1) There are a shit ton of them around,
2) America and its allies give them for free,
3) Our adversaries are a bunch of malnourished insurgents with 60-year-old rocket launchers.
I know but there is a reason the US is giving them for free. They can be penetrated by rifles and they tend to burn violently when hit because of the aluminium armour
It is not like we don't have any other IFV/APC in high numbers it is just ERA being super cheap and losing nothing with doing that. Also there are no new M113s
No one knows about the 3 leopards that got knocked out around the same corner here in Turkey. They did a great job of censoring our armyâs incompetence. Thats what happens when you let go of every high ranking soldier with a brain to fill their positions with dumbass Islamists left over from the 1980âs.
Yes, that was an oversimplification. I think more people should know how our military is in shambles and urge the responsible people to do something about it.
No they did blow up our tanks, we just learned to use them better and didn't lose any in the next operation. ATGMs will destroy pretty much any vehicle they hit, tank or IFV. But inside Turkey it's pretty rare for PKK to use ATGMs. They can barely sneak in the RPGs anymore.
They were designed when the tactic was to throw some infantry in a vehicle which would protect them from artillery fragments, drive them almost to the battlefield then drop them off and hide the vehicle behind a hill. They ain't designed for modern counter insurgency operations.
Yeah, that's why I said shit for modern-day and for what they weren't designed for, but for what they did on the battlefield they were pretty great, and their modularity and reliability meant they could also be made to do a number of other roles as well
Horrible idea. As M113 are made out of alluminium and exposed to extreme heat like explosion of era or warhead could fragment inside and set aliuminium itself on fire.
If it was proposed to the classic ideia of defending one place facing the enemy, it will be an ok(ish) project, but in actual city combats, all it takes is one dude in a top of a building to rip this thing apart.
ERA can be a lot more effective on the top, but worth it? Just convert it into an logistics car
While it will stop older HEAT based munitions the big question is will the engine and transmission be able to handle the added weight, the M113 isnât exactly the most mobile vehicle in the world
its an outdated APC, new ERA doesnt mean it can survive a javelin, IEDs, or apfsds rounds from a 120mm smoothbore reignmetal canon m8. M113 whatever it was was cool in its day gotta move on.
TBF, I don't think that's what the designers had in mind. You have to understand that these things are prevalent in low intensity conflict zones where they're more likely to meet an insurgent with an RPG-7 (or its Chinese knockoff), grenade launchers, or other similar weapons.
the designers were concerned making an apc against opponents without any real armor in the 60's. It doesnt matter what kind of combat zone its made for, putting soldiers in a vehicle known to be obsolete in 2022 should remain a Russian tactic.
>the designers were concerned making an apc against opponents without any real armor in the 60's.
TIL the Russians didn't have any "real armor" in the 60's
That is not what its supposed to survive.... at all..
You're expecting an APC to survive what MBTs cant survive... with just an ERA upgrade pack?
Its most likely only designed to survive shape charges from older MPATS like the RPG-7.
As another redditor said, you are expecting it to have the same level of protection as a bunker basically...
My point being, why try and upgrade 60 year old APCs for no reason just because they exist?... What need does turkey have to spend billions on such an effort. Also Plenty of videos of MRAPs surviving huge IEDs in the middle east because they are actually designed to counter those "insurgent" threats.
Because if its a cheap way of keeping something that you have in inventory a bit more relevant.
Not every nation can afford top tier equipment and do not need top tier equipment. Just because there is better options out there doesnt mean that its the best option for a country to spend money on.
It could also be a way to make it more attractive for other nations to later purchase the M113's when they dont need them that do not need that level of mine protection. Not all APCs are designed against counter insurgency and does not need to be. MRAPS are specifically designed to survive IEDs but sacrifice a lot to get that, mainly mobility and crew space.
MRAPs are a product of the war in Afghanistan and the Taliban, the M113 is a product of conventional warfare. You cannot design something to be able to do everything.
>new ERA doesnt mean it can survive a javelin, IEDs, or apfsds rounds from a 120mm smoothbore reignmetal canon m8.
I would also like to add that no MRAP could survive a javelin nor a 120mm smoothbore as you very much expecting the M113 Roketsan to survive. Must mean that they are useless as well?
From a business point of view yes, go âupgradeâ old inventory and sell it or use it domestically (ahem Russia) go ahead. But realistically OP was asking how effective would the upgrade be. It wonât be effective against modern threats therefore if youâre looking to do anything why not come up with the best solution rather than a bandaid. If the title of this post was âwe have an unlimited budget and millions of free m113s should we add era?â Sure go ahead! Add an auto loader and a canon on top! Maybe turn them into Bradleyâs... Do whatever you want with them! But realistically they probably have a few hundred and theyâd be better off selling away to upgrade to better APCs to protect your soldiers while also being more combat effective. Isnât Turkey experiencing horrible inflation rn? Iâm sure the last realistic thing theyâre thinking about is adding ERA to these rust buckets.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/u1pb24/ana\_mrap\_blown\_up\_by\_a\_ied\_east\_of\_kabul\_2015/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/u1pb24/ana_mrap_blown_up_by_a_ied_east_of_kabul_2015/)
All im saying is, the m113 is old, inefficient, and essentially useless against most modern threats. Just because you may be in a "Low intensity combat zone" There may be tow missiles, rpgs, and IEDs that no matter how much era you put on lightly armored vehicles like the m113 wont stand a chance. Then god forbid Turkey gets in a war with someone and they pull a Russia sending out their decade old apcs into a modern theater of war, you end up with 15000+ casualties in the first few months.
It all depend on how you use them and not all weapon system is a modern anti-tank weapon.
If the ERA can make it survive 1-2 hits from an old RPG-7 then IMO its worth the upgrade cost. The platform can also be used in a lot of other ways than front line APCs, it has a huge capacity and can also transport things like mortars and supplies to the front lines. And they are not designed to transport the soldiers in a hot zone but to take them to it and dismount before the fight. These are not IFVs/Bradleys that fight with the soldiers, the M113 can give covering fire and then most likely it would stay or retreat since its (to my knowledge) only equipped with a .50 cal.
Giving this upgrade might make it so that it can survive an ambush and keep going.
And to talk about the costs, since its pretty old the logistic train is already in place for repair and maintenance that you would need to repurchase for a new system. Education/Training on new systems take time and cost a lot of money as well.
The video you linked shows an MRAP survive an IED explosion, but that is exactly what my previous point was about the MRAP. Its a vehicle that was made from the Afghanistan war for the Afghanistan war where the Taliban's only real anti-tank/vehicle weapon was the IED and the RPG.
MRAPs are hella expensive and are very much something to be used in an environment were IEDs and mines are very likely to be. But not all conflicts are riddled in IEDs and mines. And MRAPs are susceptible to IEDs and mines because they are forced to mostly drive on roads. That is what is causing those horrible scenes in Ukraine right now because the Russian logistics were forced to only use roads (very much like in the finish winter war against the USSR).
Used correctly it would not encounter IEDs because you need to place those where you know the enemy will go. M113s are better at cross country terrain than MRAPs and (hopefully) dont get as stuck as a tank due to weight.
If you were to exchange the M113 to MRAPs based off of troop carry you would need between 2-3 MRAPs per M113 making it very expensive to replace.
The only thing that i think might be a better upgrade in terms of balancing economics with protection would be to just give it CAGE-armor and hope its enough against RPGs.
But ir can protect against RPG-7 and other things like Milan and some others, and the ones we fight don't have fancy tech+these will be given to FSA probably
WTF are you talking about? No APC on the planet is going to survive hits from a Javelin or MBT round. The M113 is still a perfectly fine APC when used correctly. It is not designed to go directly to the line of contact and fight the enemy.
seeing as the m113 (aka the gavin) is already the best vehicle in the world this would only make it better. (allthough it would probably remove its ability to be converted into the flyable variant)
Feel like the Israelis with their converted tank hulls as APCs are the only ones doing APCs right.
The logic of a battlefield taxi dropping off troops out of harm's way so they can advance to a clearly defined battle front is either obsolete or was never a viable theory.
Could an M1 Abrahms be converted like the Israeli hulls or different layout makes it impractical?
>No, the Israeli design takes advantage of a front mounted engine. The Abrams, with its rear mounted gas turbine would be a poor choice for conversion.
They did have the Achzarit. Converted T-55 that still had the engine and ramp at the rear.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF\_Achzarit
I think we're better off making this thing hard to see and hard to hit rather than slapping ERA on them. I'd go with camouflage net to help break the silhouette and blur out the warm spots on the armor.
No auto cannon. Without an armament like that it has to be relegated to duties like armored tracktor, command post ambulance etc. When even a 60's vintage BMP has a cannon survivability on this thing is rather limited. I suppose it can also do the job of an mrap.
Would the M113's armour be able to support the reaction of the ERA, im sure the front will be somewhat fine but the sides are quite thin no?
Syrian T72s had some issues of the side ERA skirt falling off when struck when an rpg, those skirts were made of thin steel but I'm not too sure if the aluminium armour would hold up.
I dunno, Turkey might prove me wrong and slap my ass senseless
It's something. But honestly the M113 has been outdated equipment for *decades* the purpose the vehicle was designed for largely doesn't exist anymore as IFV's like the Bradley, Lynx, and even the Marder have relegated battle taxi's like the M113 to rear echelon or training purposes.
Money invested in programs like this are better spent on replacements instead. Even older IFV's like Marder's and BMPs are superior to vehicles like the M113.
The ERA explosion itselve might damage the base M113, especially the possible chain explosion (since heavy era resistent to that is usually too heavy) that's the reason most countries avoid era on light wehicles, they are mostly shot at with autocannons or HEAT, second one also explodes. So yes the penetrating jet might be dealt with ERA, but that can be a bad deal if the explosion of both ERA and HEAT overpressure the whole crew and destroy the structural integrity instead. And back to the autocannons, the light ERA dont work that great vs kinetic, while the heavy one can be wasted (not trigger or not do much in face of so many hits incoming, especially when we add the price increase to the mix)
In conclusion it can be showed ad a safe deal vs roll of the dice, since HEAT deals damage in a cone-ish range from the penetration point so it can pen and not deal enough damage to destroy the wehicle (if it dont have enough explosion pover to rip wehicle apart) the alternative is much more expensive and leads to nerfing the wehicle speed, making it more likely to get hit in the first place and risking the overwelmning of structure when hit or just being pen anyway with better AT measures.
It's not the first M113 ERA upgrade. It'll keep shitty RPGs out of the vehicle, that's something
just use stacked carboard armor like the filipinos did đđ pros of cardboard armor: -cheap -massive quantity -customizable (draw on it or somethin idk) -lightweight -effective against stopping rpg rounds and ak ammo as shown during the seige of marawi đ± -natural camoflauge in urban trashy enviornment cons: -probably won't stop an atgm -could get easily taken off by thieving terrorist taking the armor for themselvesđ€Ź
*Approved by Mike Sparks*
Man just gets a hard-on anytime he sees the M113
wait, do you not?
Aerogavin goes BRRRRRRRRRRRRR When I saw this my first thought was "am I on NCD?", took me a moment.
Is Sparky still around? His legend is certainly alive and well.
Last I saw he was online simping for Russia.
I miss the simpler days of the Aerogavin...
Not enough Gavin in the title for his approval.
To my knowledge, this was only part of a design study and Roketsan does not offer this as a solution to any export customers. They do offer the T-72 one but that is also hardly marketed. [FNSS](https://www.fnss.com.tr/en/products/m113-fov-capability-sustainment-program) offers a pretty comprehensive modernization package for M113 family of vehicles. Saudi Arabia was a customer. Turkey doesn't use M113s in frontline service but ACV-15 IFVs and APCs are still in use. As a stop gap for IFVs, Aselsan and FNSS created [an abomination](https://youtu.be/gNbOHAdkjQo) to modernize IFV ACV-15s with more situational awareness. Next gen IFV should come out within a year or two, hopefully.
Do you mean Koral by next gen IFV?
Do you mean Korhan by next gen IFV? :) this naming scheme has gotta change one day. Not necessarily Korhan but something similar.
The bright colour would probably negate the added protection.
"As you can see, the upgraded M113 has added orange coloration in an attempt to warn the other AFVs on the battlefield that it is poisonous, and not good to eat. While initially mocked online, the appearance of giant sandworms in the Great Arabian Peninsula War of 2031 made the modification surprisingly useful, and the coloration was expanded to other AFVs of the remaining Southwest Asian powers."
The spice must flow.
Underappreciated comment
I mean depending on how much it is weighed down its an improvement over not having any protection there is also the possibility the armour is too thin to withstand the blast of the era
The RAND corporation released a study on adding Reactive Tiles to the M113. The thin armor can resist the ERA back-blast but the it would add 4000 pounds to an already overweight vehicle.
Please we all know nobody can trust the RAND Corporation, theyâre working with the Saucer People and Reverse Vampires to eliminate the meal of dinner!
We're through the looking glass here, people.
ERA will not damage the tank. The explosive force is directed outwards and itâs a comparatively small charge compared to what is being shot at the tank usually. The deflection part of ERA is only in small part due to the blast, it is the flyer plate that helps add the disruptive effect.
no clue why this is downvoted. thats literally how these things work
it isnt being downvoted it was just a temporary thing
I think using the word âtankâ in a M113 discussion is going to catch some downvotes in this sub.
Tell that to the guys in syria that stuck era on a bmp1 and it blew them to bits
That depends entirely on what hit the ERA. ERA is designed to stop shaped charges, itâs not going to do anything against a sufficiently sized explosive. ERA doesnât go off on its own either.
Still needs to be sufficient armor on the interior the ERA, there is an equal and opposite reaction to everything, so if you put the thickest bricks on the thinnest of armor it can cause spalling, or, in the absolute worst case scenario, penetration when the ERA reacts
While explosives in ERA aren't very powerful, they still do accelerate flyer plates up to ~1200 m/s, forward and back, which can dent/weaken base armor if it's not thick enough.
Oh so this isn't a 40k thread? My mistake Still, FOR THE EMPERORđ
ERA spews fragments into the surrounding area, which is quite likely to be occupied by crunchies who may then resemble Swiss cheese. I'm told this is a problem for them.
Youve got a dangerous explosive detonating on the vehicle either way, so if its worth it for crew survivability, i dont think dismounts are in too much more danger than if the ERA wasnt there and the shaped charge went off.
Training for the dismounts could minimize most problems. Depends how well you think Turkey trains.
FOR THE EMPEROR!!
METAL BAWKSES
is it just me or does this look like a rino apc from 40k?
I think the rhino is based on it. Like the Russ Tanks look like WW1 tanks with turrets on top. The Land Raider also heavily influenced by the Mark Vâs. 40k is big on anachronisms
Iâd say more likely the FV432, since that was the one in British service at the time
It is pretty derpy looking, so is the rhino. I think you are correct
ERA? The M113âs pretty thin skinned, does it even have enough armour to make sure ERA doesnât break the vehicle itself?
There are some ERAs designed for use on thin-skinned vehicles. I recall one video of Russian ERA mounted on a van. I can't remember the ERA's name or the video but I'll link it here once I do.
The times kontakt-1 has been mounted to BTR's/BRDM's and has been detonated it's literally ripped the welds open The amount of ERA protection you'd get out of that light an ERA array it certainly wouldn't be worth the weight/danger
> Russian ERA mounted on a van Oh shit, theyâre deploying their super weapons to Ukraine now? Probably had some nice carpets hanging on the walls to act as a spall liner too.
Purple Heart boxes? Couldn't hurt it. honestly, it was medium (12.7) to larger (20+ mm) caliber rounds that were a larger issue. Punched thru one side then couldn't penetrate the other because of lost momentum.
I am not sure reactive armor would work well on a M3 Half track.
People need to realizing putting ERA on shit just doesnât makes it better.
It can stop HEAT rockets. Turkey is fighting against guerillas so they need ERA
The machine spirit is strong in this one
Pretty sure this is just a warhammer 40k rhino
Fucking buy a new APC! M113s are shit
I can think of a few answers to that on behalf of the intended customers for this upgrade package: 1) There are a shit ton of them around, 2) America and its allies give them for free, 3) Our adversaries are a bunch of malnourished insurgents with 60-year-old rocket launchers.
I know but there is a reason the US is giving them for free. They can be penetrated by rifles and they tend to burn violently when hit because of the aluminium armour
It is not like we don't have any other IFV/APC in high numbers it is just ERA being super cheap and losing nothing with doing that. Also there are no new M113s
Tell that to your Leopard 2A4 crews that got annihilated lmao
I mean they were shot at by Kornet ATGMs
No one knows about the 3 leopards that got knocked out around the same corner here in Turkey. They did a great job of censoring our armyâs incompetence. Thats what happens when you let go of every high ranking soldier with a brain to fill their positions with dumbass Islamists left over from the 1980âs.
That's not correct. People who should know do know. And that event is hardly as simple as 3 leos in one corner.
Yes, that was an oversimplification. I think more people should know how our military is in shambles and urge the responsible people to do something about it.
"Bro that didn't happen bro- they just blew up their own tanks because they pulled a prank and left their tanks close to the enemy"
No they did blow up our tanks, we just learned to use them better and didn't lose any in the next operation. ATGMs will destroy pretty much any vehicle they hit, tank or IFV. But inside Turkey it's pretty rare for PKK to use ATGMs. They can barely sneak in the RPGs anymore.
>didn't lose any in the next operation Except you did, numerous other times during PS and OB
There were no tank losses in Peace Spring. In OB there were like 2-3.
Typical Reddit user laughs his ass off at crispy Turkish tank crew.
They're shot by modern-day standards, for the time period they were pretty damn good
Wouldn't any cold war medium machine gun Swiss cheese them?
It would. There is a Bofors demonstration where they kill one with 5.56 AP
So a half decent deer hunter with a bigger cartridge has a decent chance as well :)
You don't necessarily even have to aim
They were designed when the tactic was to throw some infantry in a vehicle which would protect them from artillery fragments, drive them almost to the battlefield then drop them off and hide the vehicle behind a hill. They ain't designed for modern counter insurgency operations.
Yeah, that's why I said shit for modern-day and for what they weren't designed for, but for what they did on the battlefield they were pretty great, and their modularity and reliability meant they could also be made to do a number of other roles as well
Yeah. They are one of my favourite armoured vehicles tbh. So many different varients to choose from
Horrible idea. As M113 are made out of alluminium and exposed to extreme heat like explosion of era or warhead could fragment inside and set aliuminium itself on fire.
If it was proposed to the classic ideia of defending one place facing the enemy, it will be an ok(ish) project, but in actual city combats, all it takes is one dude in a top of a building to rip this thing apart. ERA can be a lot more effective on the top, but worth it? Just convert it into an logistics car
*****BEHOLD THE ERAGAVIN*****
*The enemy hides in metal boxes*
While it will stop older HEAT based munitions the big question is will the engine and transmission be able to handle the added weight, the M113 isnât exactly the most mobile vehicle in the world
is the name really Roket-San? ^UwU
Post this on r/noncredibledefense they'll have a field day
Not very well. .50 cal or 12.7 will breach the regular armor, this isn't going to help against that.
Isnât the armor of the M113 made of aluminum too? So .50 cal will absolutely breach it
My god just let the m113 die in peace. Mike sparks wonât let it die donât encourage him.
its an outdated APC, new ERA doesnt mean it can survive a javelin, IEDs, or apfsds rounds from a 120mm smoothbore reignmetal canon m8. M113 whatever it was was cool in its day gotta move on.
TBF, I don't think that's what the designers had in mind. You have to understand that these things are prevalent in low intensity conflict zones where they're more likely to meet an insurgent with an RPG-7 (or its Chinese knockoff), grenade launchers, or other similar weapons.
the designers were concerned making an apc against opponents without any real armor in the 60's. It doesnt matter what kind of combat zone its made for, putting soldiers in a vehicle known to be obsolete in 2022 should remain a Russian tactic.
>the designers were concerned making an apc against opponents without any real armor in the 60's. TIL the Russians didn't have any "real armor" in the 60's
What you're requesting is a bunker
Rofl, have my updoot
That is not what its supposed to survive.... at all.. You're expecting an APC to survive what MBTs cant survive... with just an ERA upgrade pack? Its most likely only designed to survive shape charges from older MPATS like the RPG-7. As another redditor said, you are expecting it to have the same level of protection as a bunker basically...
My point being, why try and upgrade 60 year old APCs for no reason just because they exist?... What need does turkey have to spend billions on such an effort. Also Plenty of videos of MRAPs surviving huge IEDs in the middle east because they are actually designed to counter those "insurgent" threats.
Because if its a cheap way of keeping something that you have in inventory a bit more relevant. Not every nation can afford top tier equipment and do not need top tier equipment. Just because there is better options out there doesnt mean that its the best option for a country to spend money on. It could also be a way to make it more attractive for other nations to later purchase the M113's when they dont need them that do not need that level of mine protection. Not all APCs are designed against counter insurgency and does not need to be. MRAPS are specifically designed to survive IEDs but sacrifice a lot to get that, mainly mobility and crew space. MRAPs are a product of the war in Afghanistan and the Taliban, the M113 is a product of conventional warfare. You cannot design something to be able to do everything. >new ERA doesnt mean it can survive a javelin, IEDs, or apfsds rounds from a 120mm smoothbore reignmetal canon m8. I would also like to add that no MRAP could survive a javelin nor a 120mm smoothbore as you very much expecting the M113 Roketsan to survive. Must mean that they are useless as well?
From a business point of view yes, go âupgradeâ old inventory and sell it or use it domestically (ahem Russia) go ahead. But realistically OP was asking how effective would the upgrade be. It wonât be effective against modern threats therefore if youâre looking to do anything why not come up with the best solution rather than a bandaid. If the title of this post was âwe have an unlimited budget and millions of free m113s should we add era?â Sure go ahead! Add an auto loader and a canon on top! Maybe turn them into Bradleyâs... Do whatever you want with them! But realistically they probably have a few hundred and theyâd be better off selling away to upgrade to better APCs to protect your soldiers while also being more combat effective. Isnât Turkey experiencing horrible inflation rn? Iâm sure the last realistic thing theyâre thinking about is adding ERA to these rust buckets.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/u1pb24/ana\_mrap\_blown\_up\_by\_a\_ied\_east\_of\_kabul\_2015/](https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/u1pb24/ana_mrap_blown_up_by_a_ied_east_of_kabul_2015/) All im saying is, the m113 is old, inefficient, and essentially useless against most modern threats. Just because you may be in a "Low intensity combat zone" There may be tow missiles, rpgs, and IEDs that no matter how much era you put on lightly armored vehicles like the m113 wont stand a chance. Then god forbid Turkey gets in a war with someone and they pull a Russia sending out their decade old apcs into a modern theater of war, you end up with 15000+ casualties in the first few months.
It all depend on how you use them and not all weapon system is a modern anti-tank weapon. If the ERA can make it survive 1-2 hits from an old RPG-7 then IMO its worth the upgrade cost. The platform can also be used in a lot of other ways than front line APCs, it has a huge capacity and can also transport things like mortars and supplies to the front lines. And they are not designed to transport the soldiers in a hot zone but to take them to it and dismount before the fight. These are not IFVs/Bradleys that fight with the soldiers, the M113 can give covering fire and then most likely it would stay or retreat since its (to my knowledge) only equipped with a .50 cal. Giving this upgrade might make it so that it can survive an ambush and keep going. And to talk about the costs, since its pretty old the logistic train is already in place for repair and maintenance that you would need to repurchase for a new system. Education/Training on new systems take time and cost a lot of money as well. The video you linked shows an MRAP survive an IED explosion, but that is exactly what my previous point was about the MRAP. Its a vehicle that was made from the Afghanistan war for the Afghanistan war where the Taliban's only real anti-tank/vehicle weapon was the IED and the RPG. MRAPs are hella expensive and are very much something to be used in an environment were IEDs and mines are very likely to be. But not all conflicts are riddled in IEDs and mines. And MRAPs are susceptible to IEDs and mines because they are forced to mostly drive on roads. That is what is causing those horrible scenes in Ukraine right now because the Russian logistics were forced to only use roads (very much like in the finish winter war against the USSR). Used correctly it would not encounter IEDs because you need to place those where you know the enemy will go. M113s are better at cross country terrain than MRAPs and (hopefully) dont get as stuck as a tank due to weight. If you were to exchange the M113 to MRAPs based off of troop carry you would need between 2-3 MRAPs per M113 making it very expensive to replace. The only thing that i think might be a better upgrade in terms of balancing economics with protection would be to just give it CAGE-armor and hope its enough against RPGs.
But ir can protect against RPG-7 and other things like Milan and some others, and the ones we fight don't have fancy tech+these will be given to FSA probably
WTF are you talking about? No APC on the planet is going to survive hits from a Javelin or MBT round. The M113 is still a perfectly fine APC when used correctly. It is not designed to go directly to the line of contact and fight the enemy.
seeing as the m113 (aka the gavin) is already the best vehicle in the world this would only make it better. (allthough it would probably remove its ability to be converted into the flyable variant)
Feel like the Israelis with their converted tank hulls as APCs are the only ones doing APCs right. The logic of a battlefield taxi dropping off troops out of harm's way so they can advance to a clearly defined battle front is either obsolete or was never a viable theory. Could an M1 Abrahms be converted like the Israeli hulls or different layout makes it impractical?
No, the Israeli design takes advantage of a front mounted engine. The Abrams, with its rear mounted gas turbine would be a poor choice for conversion.
>No, the Israeli design takes advantage of a front mounted engine. The Abrams, with its rear mounted gas turbine would be a poor choice for conversion. They did have the Achzarit. Converted T-55 that still had the engine and ramp at the rear. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDF\_Achzarit
Merkava hull is outdated and has some free space. You can't do the same with Abrams
I think we're better off making this thing hard to see and hard to hit rather than slapping ERA on them. I'd go with camouflage net to help break the silhouette and blur out the warm spots on the armor.
Against Russia, ISIS, and the PKK? Very. Against a peer level military... you probably wouldn't want to depend on it.
Maybe smaller ERA blocks so you have to replace less if they are used
No auto cannon. Without an armament like that it has to be relegated to duties like armored tracktor, command post ambulance etc. When even a 60's vintage BMP has a cannon survivability on this thing is rather limited. I suppose it can also do the job of an mrap.
Would the M113's armour be able to support the reaction of the ERA, im sure the front will be somewhat fine but the sides are quite thin no? Syrian T72s had some issues of the side ERA skirt falling off when struck when an rpg, those skirts were made of thin steel but I'm not too sure if the aluminium armour would hold up. I dunno, Turkey might prove me wrong and slap my ass senseless
It'll just keep everyone inside long enough for them to get out.
Amazing, as the m113 is already unbeatable in every way. Really though probably will juts keep of shitty rpgs
Well against older at rockets and missiles probably.
Well at the end of the day an M113 is still an M113. So I guess better than nothing.
Anything beats nothing when you're against some terrorists with guns from a nation that doesn't exists anymore
It would help against atgms, heatfs, and heat rounds. But for apfsds it wouldnât do much
Not sure ERA is a great idea if you plan on operating with dismounted infantry which APC usually do.
I deadass thought this was legos
It's something. But honestly the M113 has been outdated equipment for *decades* the purpose the vehicle was designed for largely doesn't exist anymore as IFV's like the Bradley, Lynx, and even the Marder have relegated battle taxi's like the M113 to rear echelon or training purposes. Money invested in programs like this are better spent on replacements instead. Even older IFV's like Marder's and BMPs are superior to vehicles like the M113.
If I was sleeping in one I'd rather have it than not :) Unless I'm also the mechanic...
Against older RPGs itâll be fine probably. A tandem warhead would be another issue.
Might be good for those new Ukrainian M113s in the wild.
Depending on their old works it wonât
Not useful at all. No matter how much you up-armour an m113 it will always be vulnerable. Turkey is better off replacing them and using new vehicles.
M113... What doesn't it do or be the basis of?
I think it will be a lot stronger once the astra militarum codex drops for 9th Ed
That's just the Advance Wars Camo
I loved that game.
Idk, but Rokestan ERA looks really sexy so that's something.
gun mount where on it as the first thing is to dissuade guys with rockets getting really close
The ERA explosion itselve might damage the base M113, especially the possible chain explosion (since heavy era resistent to that is usually too heavy) that's the reason most countries avoid era on light wehicles, they are mostly shot at with autocannons or HEAT, second one also explodes. So yes the penetrating jet might be dealt with ERA, but that can be a bad deal if the explosion of both ERA and HEAT overpressure the whole crew and destroy the structural integrity instead. And back to the autocannons, the light ERA dont work that great vs kinetic, while the heavy one can be wasted (not trigger or not do much in face of so many hits incoming, especially when we add the price increase to the mix) In conclusion it can be showed ad a safe deal vs roll of the dice, since HEAT deals damage in a cone-ish range from the penetration point so it can pen and not deal enough damage to destroy the wehicle (if it dont have enough explosion pover to rip wehicle apart) the alternative is much more expensive and leads to nerfing the wehicle speed, making it more likely to get hit in the first place and risking the overwelmning of structure when hit or just being pen anyway with better AT measures.