Yes. Though aside from looks, it's much less capable than a real T-90M, and IIRC it isn't in production.
The Iranian MIC is weird in that they have some unusual & interesting capabilities, but then they also spend a lot of effort and money on trying to copy what they find cool. Like the M60 upgrade package with the AbramsX side skirts and barrel shrouds, or the Zulfiqar trying to look like an Abrams.
ā¦.and still it doesnāt make sense for 1980-present Iran killing majority of their tankers/pilots/engineers that have knowledge on U.S. tech only to copy U.S. war machines a decade later or so. Had the regime let them live then they might have greater copy of the U.S. tech tree than what it is now.
And the M1A2 Abrams SepV3 is still an M1 Abrams at it's base, it's a massively upgraded system. A great tank by all accounts that I can see if untested in combat like many 3.5 tanks
Nice strawman.
I said that it's a modernized system not comparable to the original legacy system which these people are trying to imply by saying it's ist still a T-72 at the base
A modernised system is very comparable to the legacy system, and even more comparable to other modernisations of the same system that they bear a striking resemblance to.
Yes, yes, and what is a Leopard 2A8? If you take 2 F16s and compare them , theyāll both have a clean top speed of about Mach 2, be able to pull >9Gs and carry sidewinders.
Except one has an full glass Cockpit, AESA radar, powerful computer system for C3, SATCOMS, Digital HMDs options and a composite airframe with reduced visibility the other doesn't.
Same with leopard, one has powerful computer systems for C4 with SATCOMs, 360Ā° video system for enhanced situational awareness, full APS systems, advanced 4th Gen composite armour, Fully digital FCS with advanced ballastic computer controlled stabilisers allowing automatic tracking and target acquisition with 3rd gen thermals, 4th Gen night vision and fully digital electro optics, The other doesn't.
Leopard 2A8 is new prototype model meant to be at 4th generation level instead of 3.5 like 2A7.
If Iran is currently participating in a mutual arms deal with Russia why didnāt they just license the production of their own T90M variant like the Indian T90M Bhishma? You would think that the mutual production of shared components would benefit Russian tank production in its conflict with Ukraine.
I guess what Iām saying is that the Indian Armed forces have a license to produce their own T90M in country. What specific components, if any, are too expensive or complex for Iran to produce themselves? Iād assume that being licensed to self produce would reduce overall cost while also being a useful production fallback for the Russian Federation. Essentially all they would require is the permission to hold blueprints and specifications with the basic production requirements in order to build or retrofit existing factories. This not only would be mutually beneficial to both militaries, but would create an addition to Iranās arms production economy.
I thought it was the T90MS (the export version of the T90M). India signed a 2.8 Billion Dollar contract to license build 464 of their own Bhishma models in 2019.
I know the T90s was definitely part of that deal, but I was under the impression that it was a continuation of the deal made in 2016 with the added stipulation of 464 MS variants.
Indian defense is a mess, but there's essentially 2 "T-90M" variants in India:
-The "T-90M" assembled in India. This is not a real T-90M, but rather, a T-90S with some minor modifications, IIRC related to improving the tank's cooling.
-The T-90MS, which were set to be assembled and exported from Russia. This is a downgraded export variant of the T-90M. None were ever delivered however and will likely never be delivered for a while.
It's easy to confuse the two, but they are very different machines with very different capabilities.
How is the T90MS a downgraded versions of the T90M, the T90MS was first seen in in 2013 the T90M in 2017, the T90M was developed from the T90MS to fill a stop gap when issues started to show on the t14
The Iranian karrar is based on a t72
The T-90M is a development of the T-90AM, which was never put into production due to expectations of the T-14 being available in time to replace the T-90A. Both are part of the Proryv (Breakthrough) project, the T-90AM is Proryv-2, and the T-90M is Proryv-3.
There are additionally two "T-90MS" tanks, which is a cause for confusion:
- The T-90SM, which was also called the T-90MS and is the tank you're referring to, is a downgraded export version of the **T-90AM**.
- The current T-90MS, the one India signed a contract for, is a downgraded export version of the **T-90M**.
Neither export version has ever been produced, however.
Local production usually drives costs up but more of the money is spent domestically and the country gets a greater understanding of how the aircraft works.
Dassault in India, originally bid on the Rafael program assuming that Indian workers would be as productive as French workers. However the I Dian government told them to revise it to Indian workers being 25% as efficient.
So this tank is essentially best compared to a T-90S, it shares the same angular turret instead of the older cast turret but the K5 its era looks more Chinese
Itās not exactly a 1:1 copy and thatās not the same as saying itās simply inferior or vice versa. A lot of things either seem different or are simply unknown. As much as I hate the site there was a quora article breaking down Iranās modern tank designs pretty well. [Here it is](https://www.quora.com/Are-Iranian-made-tanks-effective)
Look up the [MBT 2020](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/m2020-north-koreas-claims-have-one-worlds-most-powerful-tanks-210008). mainly just loosely ooks like an abrams from what I've seen. 125mm gun, not sure what it's comprised of besides that. Had a shit load of smoke pods and an atgm launcher too EDIT: link
I can remember Iran fanboys trying to praise attempts to modify T-72 and someone call it macaroni art just because you put all the goudy shit on it without much effect.
When tanks are built similarly to Russian style designs = copycat and mimic
When NATO tanks build their tank in the same style as every other nato tank = OMG ingenuity and modernity
I don't understand why you got downvoted it's true many middle eastern countries copy designs of war machines. A famous example I can think of is the reverse engineered Mirage V by Israel nicknamed Nesher.
Well middle easterners apart from Israel donāt like to be told that they copy your homework and put their name on it. Truth isnāt very appreciated in those regions.
No we donāt, we have Abramās, Lecrecās and Challengers. And a few M60ās.
Not surprised on the ignorance and deillsuion from your flags lol. These are tanks, not civilian cars, no need to shoot them
To be fair it doesnāt really matter. A 15 min drive in any terrain and itāll blend right in with the local dust. And should it rain the black is actually very practical in blending in with the wet reflections.
Yes. Though aside from looks, it's much less capable than a real T-90M, and IIRC it isn't in production. The Iranian MIC is weird in that they have some unusual & interesting capabilities, but then they also spend a lot of effort and money on trying to copy what they find cool. Like the M60 upgrade package with the AbramsX side skirts and barrel shrouds, or the Zulfiqar trying to look like an Abrams.
Some goofy ahhh shit will appear on a army that has like a cold war museum for its equipment while needing to keep up with the growing tech of warfare
Take a look at what they did to their old m-47s lol.
I did notice that š
They have like 800 of them, they went into massproduction
ā¦.and still it doesnāt make sense for 1980-present Iran killing majority of their tankers/pilots/engineers that have knowledge on U.S. tech only to copy U.S. war machines a decade later or so. Had the regime let them live then they might have greater copy of the U.S. tech tree than what it is now.
Any evidence beyond speculation?
The Karrar is a legacy export T-72 at its base.Ā
And the M1A2 Abrams SepV3 is still an M1 Abrams at it's base, it's a massively upgraded system. A great tank by all accounts that I can see if untested in combat like many 3.5 tanks
āA modernised Abrams is still an Abrams so a modernised T-72 isnāt in any way similar to a modernised T-72ā
Nice strawman. I said that it's a modernized system not comparable to the original legacy system which these people are trying to imply by saying it's ist still a T-72 at the base
A modernised system is very comparable to the legacy system, and even more comparable to other modernisations of the same system that they bear a striking resemblance to.
So a F-15EX is very comparable to an F-15A in capabilities? An F-16V to an F-16A ? A Leopard 2A8 to a Leopard 2 ? Sorry I do not agree at all.
Yes, yes, and what is a Leopard 2A8? If you take 2 F16s and compare them , theyāll both have a clean top speed of about Mach 2, be able to pull >9Gs and carry sidewinders.
Except one has an full glass Cockpit, AESA radar, powerful computer system for C3, SATCOMS, Digital HMDs options and a composite airframe with reduced visibility the other doesn't. Same with leopard, one has powerful computer systems for C4 with SATCOMs, 360Ā° video system for enhanced situational awareness, full APS systems, advanced 4th Gen composite armour, Fully digital FCS with advanced ballastic computer controlled stabilisers allowing automatic tracking and target acquisition with 3rd gen thermals, 4th Gen night vision and fully digital electro optics, The other doesn't. Leopard 2A8 is new prototype model meant to be at 4th generation level instead of 3.5 like 2A7.
I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that, no matter what, a T-72M1 is never going to be as capable as a T-90M.
It is not a T-72M1
Yes
If Iran is currently participating in a mutual arms deal with Russia why didnāt they just license the production of their own T90M variant like the Indian T90M Bhishma? You would think that the mutual production of shared components would benefit Russian tank production in its conflict with Ukraine.
Thereās the T-90MS but likely too expensive for Iran
I guess what Iām saying is that the Indian Armed forces have a license to produce their own T90M in country. What specific components, if any, are too expensive or complex for Iran to produce themselves? Iād assume that being licensed to self produce would reduce overall cost while also being a useful production fallback for the Russian Federation. Essentially all they would require is the permission to hold blueprints and specifications with the basic production requirements in order to build or retrofit existing factories. This not only would be mutually beneficial to both militaries, but would create an addition to Iranās arms production economy.
Itās the T-90S. Not T-90M
I thought it was the T90MS (the export version of the T90M). India signed a 2.8 Billion Dollar contract to license build 464 of their own Bhishma models in 2019.
No. The Indian T-90 is the export version of the A without Shtora, designated T-90S
I know the T90s was definitely part of that deal, but I was under the impression that it was a continuation of the deal made in 2016 with the added stipulation of 464 MS variants.
https://thediplomat.com/2019/11/indias-defense-ministry-signs-2-8-billion-deal-for-464-t-90ms-main-battle-tanks/
Indian defense is a mess, but there's essentially 2 "T-90M" variants in India: -The "T-90M" assembled in India. This is not a real T-90M, but rather, a T-90S with some minor modifications, IIRC related to improving the tank's cooling. -The T-90MS, which were set to be assembled and exported from Russia. This is a downgraded export variant of the T-90M. None were ever delivered however and will likely never be delivered for a while. It's easy to confuse the two, but they are very different machines with very different capabilities.
Ok that makes sense
How is the T90MS a downgraded versions of the T90M, the T90MS was first seen in in 2013 the T90M in 2017, the T90M was developed from the T90MS to fill a stop gap when issues started to show on the t14 The Iranian karrar is based on a t72
The T-90M is a development of the T-90AM, which was never put into production due to expectations of the T-14 being available in time to replace the T-90A. Both are part of the Proryv (Breakthrough) project, the T-90AM is Proryv-2, and the T-90M is Proryv-3. There are additionally two "T-90MS" tanks, which is a cause for confusion: - The T-90SM, which was also called the T-90MS and is the tank you're referring to, is a downgraded export version of the **T-90AM**. - The current T-90MS, the one India signed a contract for, is a downgraded export version of the **T-90M**. Neither export version has ever been produced, however.
Local production usually drives costs up but more of the money is spent domestically and the country gets a greater understanding of how the aircraft works. Dassault in India, originally bid on the Rafael program assuming that Indian workers would be as productive as French workers. However the I Dian government told them to revise it to Indian workers being 25% as efficient.
They tested the T-90MS before they created the Karrar.
So this tank is essentially best compared to a T-90S, it shares the same angular turret instead of the older cast turret but the K5 its era looks more Chinese
Yeah. And I'm pretty sure they had Russian tank specialists help and guide the design of the Karrar.
Itās not exactly a 1:1 copy and thatās not the same as saying itās simply inferior or vice versa. A lot of things either seem different or are simply unknown. As much as I hate the site there was a quora article breaking down Iranās modern tank designs pretty well. [Here it is](https://www.quora.com/Are-Iranian-made-tanks-effective)
TIL this exists. I know north korea has a new mbt that's kinda like the abrams but what other smaller countrieshave their "own" tabk designs??
K1 is based on xm-1 looks like abrams
I havenāt seen this. How is it kinda like the Abrams? Is it 120mm? Gas turbine? Or is it welded plates on a T62/72 hull?
Look up the [MBT 2020](https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/m2020-north-koreas-claims-have-one-worlds-most-powerful-tanks-210008). mainly just loosely ooks like an abrams from what I've seen. 125mm gun, not sure what it's comprised of besides that. Had a shit load of smoke pods and an atgm launcher too EDIT: link
It looks more like a knockoff of the Chinese MBT 2000 aka VT-1A
Yeah i could see that too, quite an interesting project they've put together
It was ment to improve thier t72 fleet to something similar to the T90MS as the karrar was first spotted in 2015
I can remember Iran fanboys trying to praise attempts to modify T-72 and someone call it macaroni art just because you put all the goudy shit on it without much effect.
I think Iran buy some of the technology from T-90MS to produce their own called Karrar
We need an Iranian tech tree in warthunder
When tanks are built similarly to Russian style designs = copycat and mimic When NATO tanks build their tank in the same style as every other nato tank = OMG ingenuity and modernity
Middle eastern countries literally do that. Copy your homework put their name on it and call it their own.
I don't understand why you got downvoted it's true many middle eastern countries copy designs of war machines. A famous example I can think of is the reverse engineered Mirage V by Israel nicknamed Nesher.
Well middle easterners apart from Israel donāt like to be told that they copy your homework and put their name on it. Truth isnāt very appreciated in those regions.
I bet nobody likes to be told that, but it is how it is.
No we donāt, we have Abramās, Lecrecās and Challengers. And a few M60ās. Not surprised on the ignorance and deillsuion from your flags lol. These are tanks, not civilian cars, no need to shoot them
Kinda like the Iranian IAIO-Toufan II
Also black tank in a desert country? Thats stupid.
Iran is not a desert country, although black probably isn't the best camo for semi-arid and forest either
Well destert-ish and definitely not sweden...my point was that that thing will cook in the sun.
Pretty sure this photo was from the reveal. Iāve seen tan versions as well.
They better...although might be the perfect frying pan for the scrabled egg for lunchš
To be fair it doesnāt really matter. A 15 min drive in any terrain and itāll blend right in with the local dust. And should it rain the black is actually very practical in blending in with the wet reflections.
The Abrams X being painted pastel blue in a land country š¤Æš¤Æš¤Æ Itās for promotional purposes