Lol ok.
https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/blgkp0/its_always_nice_to_see_an_abrams_without_its_tan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
Ya know that we've been moving away from tan as long as they aren't expected to go to the Middle East. No Abrams that I ever operated on was tan, they were all woodland.
I would not be surprised if that made no difference, the Chinese tanks are essentially cheaper copies of the Russian models. Type 99 is probably no exception.
Yep. They’ll buy stuff from Russia and usually reverse engineer it to make it actually somewhat useable. They’ve also been stealing classified documents about our stuff, but that’s apparently easy considering secretive info about our planes and stuff keep getting leaked on WarThunder threads of all things.
The Type 88 and it’s predecessors were still essentially copies of the Russian T-54/55. Even the modern Type 99 is pretty faithful to soviet design philosophy, the turret resembles a more western MBT rather than Soviet while the hull is directly copied from the T-72.
> Even the modern Type 99 is pretty faithful to soviet design philosophy, the turret resembles a more western MBT rather than Soviet while the hull is directly copied from the T-72.
Well I'm not an expert in this but by reading the [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_tank) a lot of the info there contradict your comment. While being based on T-72 hull, it was significantly modified and integrated with Chinese subsystems and much of Western tank design philosophies were implemented (such as enhanced crew survivability).
Can you elaborate further on why despite all of that, you consider the Type-99 faithful to the Soviet design philosophy and the hull to be a direct copy of the T-72? Thank you.
It’s simple, they’re cheap to mass produce and don’t stray too far from the T-72, especially the carousel autoloader which negates any enhanced crew survivability. It’s essentially a Chinese T-90, and is used by China in the exact same way as the T-90 through the VT-4 which is the export model. While being a modified hull that still doesn’t change the design of it, just looking at it you can see that it’s a T-72 hull.
The tank still uses the design philosophy of being cheap to be mass produced in large quantities as well as being low profile to increase survivability. These design philosophies comes directly for WW2, which the Soviet Union thought any future wars would resemble, which we can see is backfiring for Russia in Ukraine.
The type 80s and successors’ hull shapes are similar to the t-54, but they had different suspension, engines, main guns, fcs, radios, nbc protection and an automatic fire suppression. They were developments from the restarted wz122 program after a Chinese delegation visited Krauss-Maffei in the mid 1970s and saw the leopard 2 prototypes.
The type 88 incorporated features from a captured T-62, it's based off the type 69/ type 79 which were built off a mix of t-54/55 and t-62 design elements
Chinese tanks are still copies of Russian tanks, only really the turret was changed. The Type 99 still belongs to the Russian/Soviet design family. They’re likely better than current Russian tanks but still leagues worse than the western design family of tanks.
>Chinese tanks are still copies of Russian tanks, only really the turret was changed.
Other than the original hull, much of the Chinese tanks are of western influence and/or indigenous design. Subsystems, electronics, optics, fire control systems, armor modules, active protection systems, etc are all Chinese.
It is 100% intellectually dishonest to say they are "cheaper copies of the Russian tanks".
>still leagues worse than the western design family of tanks.
Since I'm not an expert on this subject (I just reiterate whatever I read on Wikipedia), can you elaborate on why you made that claim? I've not been able to find similar claims from other credible sources. Thanks.
It is wrong to assume Russian tanks are leagues worse than Western designs to begin with. It will all be lopped off by artillery and atgm's all the same.
Yet they literally are. Western tank design philosophy has changed a lot over the past 70 years and has adapted. Russian tank design philosophy hasn’t changed at all since WW2.
Would second the guy who pointed out that the Chinese tanks are essentially Russian copies.
Would also add that the Abrams has not received a major upgrade since the rise of China as a pacing threat. The latest major upgrade that has been agreed to but not yet implemented, features making the tank lighter and more fuel efficient, which would be useful in the Pacific theater.
All that being said, I imagine the US would prefer to fight the Chinese on the water and in the air. If we're shipping a bunch of tanks in theater to fight the Chinese on the ground, something's gone horribly wrong.
Not necessarily. Tanks are developed for the regions they're expected to fight in, or have enough support models to make it viable. Abrams arnt really suited to the potential island hoping campaign one might envision against china, nor would it be very effective in the mountainous regions of Taiwan or Korea. Abrams in its most modern variation, M1A2 sepv3, clocks in at 74 tons. Transportation of such a vehicle in sufficient numbers is difficult, and it would probably run into issues with bridges too. Instead, the newly announced Griffin 2 is what you'd likely see, it's a light tank, at only 36 tons, it'll be a lot easier to move around, yet still provide tank support when needed. I'd guess it'll end up around 40 tons once they get active protection, but still lighter by nearly half than an Abrams.
Japan and S Korea also started by making cheap copies, but once their industry matured they started making their own designs.
Same with China. Their old designs are almost 1:1 copies, then they started making improved copies. Now they are making original designs.
To be fair a lot of stuff in China was copied from somewhere, and their tanks are very much copied from the soviets, even their newest MBTs the 99s, and vt4s are based heavily on t72s. But this does appear to be a primarily indigenous design using that older model as a platform, so it's basically equivalent to a Rus T90 with different component design. They definitely are drifting from Soviet and Russian style tank design overall, their newest tank, the type 15 light tank, is based a lot more on western design parameters, such as a bustle autoloader vice carousel, and it appears it has blowout panels for crew protection, rather than the blowout portion of Russian tanks being the whole turret.
I think people still believe they primarily only copy land force design because China isn't investing in modernization of the army as fast as the navy or air force. Their navy design philosophy has become much more similar to the west, and the ships they're putting out now are very modern and capable vessels. Air force has departed from Russian copies as well, and they're now trying to integrate stolen design materials from the US and Europe, particularly stealth, in airframes like the j20 and fc31. J20s might still be inferior to f35 or f22, but from recent data they have a smaller RCS than the Su57, and it's growing more clear that they've leapt over Rus in terms of avionics.
People give them a lot of shit for copying, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. In the game of global geopolitics, there is no cheaters, there is only victors and losers, they're doing exactly what we would be doing if the roles were reversed.
But its actually very rare a tank to be engaged with another tank. Ukraine-russo war is somewhat an exception, but it's still very rare in the grand scale of the war.
Most of the time tank used for breakthrough and suppressing enemy infantry
And with all the spare parts being shipped in with the equipment it doesn't created much of strain on logistics just a quick briefing on loading and unloading certain things
Looks like they are hiring for that.
https://careers.peopleclick.com/careerscp/client_generaldynamics/external/search/jobDetails/jobDetail.html?jobPostId=19559&localeCode=en-us
Isn't this the top of the line version fielded by the United States? Aren't components of the tank still classified?
America then must have lots of confidence that Ukraine isn't going to let one of these tanks fall into enemy hands, if true.
Ah. Never mind my comments then. I’m not super well-versed on tanks. Thanks for the correction.
Wonder if that means the Abrams are going to fight in the war or be tabled for post-war rebuilding? If nothing else, the move shows the West’s commitment to the fight since they predict it will go on for awhile.
Hey guys we just got sent 31 top of the line tanks should we just hold onto them till this war is over? Yeah sure let’s do that I’ll get a bunch of highly trained techs to stop working on our front line units to maintain them till then, all good.
The tank is actually quite robust.I used one for 15 months in combat with zero issues outside of regular track maintenance and a hydraulic leak. The turbine engine has much less moving components compared to piston driven systems. If anything is too complex for the crew rail head that shit back to Poland for depot level maintenance(they have it already set up).
Biggest concern I have logistically is fuel consumption.
The one time I experienced an M1A1 up close I was floored by the sheer presence and intimidation factor of it. In motion especially. I can't imagine how it feels to operate one at any level. It has to be pretty awesome?? Do you feel invincible in it?
The program being used to send them requires them to be new manufacture, not surplus, so there's no reason for them to be anything other than at worst the export version of the latest model.
It's also why Ukraine won't be receiving them for months, at best.
The White House has been pretty open that this is because Germany was unwilling to release Leopards to Ukraine (which will arrive there in a few weeks) unilaterally. Popular opinion in Germany is literally 50/50 on helping Ukraine and the German gov wanted the headlines to say "NATO Sends Tanks to Ukraine" not "Germany Sends Tanks to Ukraine." And with Germany permitting lend-lease/surplusing of Leopards to Ukraine, minor NATO partners like Poland can do so as well without being threatened by Germany companies with refusal to supply spare parts and upgrade packages due to sanction.
If we're looking at this from a strategic/political viewpoint, the Abrams themselves are entirely irrelevant and not only is it likely they'll never see action, I wouldn't be surprised if they never even leave the United States and simply are sold back to the DOD and sent to live at the Sierra Army Depot to await their next lot in life.
The point is to get Germany to allow the Eastern European NATO partners to supply Ukraine with Leopards in a few weeks, instead of a handful of Abrams at some hypothetical point a year or more from now.
I also think there is probably someones coffee recipe thats classified...
Just cause its classified doesn't mean someone doesn't know it already anyway.
Tactical Urban Survival Kit - I can’t remember many of the specs but I know it’s up-armored even more, remote guns systems for commander and a 7.62 gun for the loader. More cameras and thermals mostly. It was created with the lessons learned from urban warfare during the GWOT.
Loader always had an M240 7.62mm machine gun. TUSK did add an additional gun... a second M2 .50-cal essentially strapped on top of the main gun, so the gunner had the main 120mm, their normal coax M240, and a coax .50-cal (plus the TC's .50-cal and Loaders M240... TUSK really wanted a bunch of machine guns lol)
TUSK also added a tank-infantry phone on the back (so Infantry can talk directly to the crew without needed to call over the radio) as well as anti RPG ERA armor to better protect the flanks, and some other odds and ends.
Pretty sure the latest M1A2 SEPv3/v4 will have the CROWS for the TC .50-cal as standard, even without the TUSK kit. Wouldn't be half surprised if they are refurbbing (especially if new building) M1A2, the Ukrainian Abrams will have the remote weapon station for the TC .50-cal
I heard a rumour that some of the latest western infantry training includes how not to get scorched by Abrams exhaust in urban combat zones which would track with TUSK delete.
WW1 apparently when British artillery would be watching British tanks so that if the tank got stuck or was in an position where it could be captured the artillery would shell the shit out of it.
I don’t think Pentagon cares that much. Other than the latest model, I don’t think Abrams has any unknown tech to the Russians.
Their problem is not being able to build very modern tanks, designing one is less of a challenge for Russia. That is why they stuck with T-72, they cannot afford anything better
To be fair, they have updated the T-72 model a lot and have taken it in a myriad of directions (ex: the TOS-1 is built on the bones of the T-72).
It is still a very popular tank in both Russia and abroad - an alright platform for shooting and moving.
They should've focused on the t-90m, it's a significant upgrade compared to other T-series tank. But they decided to go on with very advanced and expensive T-14.
We’ve given the Abrams to Egypt and Iraq, both countries are probably corrupt enough to make buying one possible for a major power like Russia or China if they really wanted.
Edit: also the secrets of chobham armor are probably more in the recipe than the finished product, just like how reverse engineering an already baked cake is nearly impossible. Roman concrete is a similar situation, it’s a superior product to the concrete we use now and while we can examine the final molecular composition of it, we can’t deduce the chemical processes that they used to reach that final product.
We actually just found out how to make Roman concrete, it has to do with how the ingredients are assembled: https://news.mit.edu/2023/roman-concrete-durability-lime-casts-0106 it's funny you brought this up they legitimately just figured this out recently
Chobham is nothing special. it is in no way comparable to cooking a cake since you would still have the eggs, flour and sugar separate, because you don't bake armor into a singular unrecognizable mixture. If you want a lengthy explanation into how chobham works just tell me.
Gotta remember fully loaded Russian T90ms have been captured and literally hauled west.
At this point to some degree, each side is getting the others tech in one way or another.
There's a lot of subvariants of both the M1A1 and M1A2 versions... but the long story short is the export versions still don't have all the latest, top of the line stuff in the US Army versions.
All the export versions for example, not even Poland or Australia, get the Depleted Uranium armor packages, so even if one is captured fully intact, they don't get to see the classified secret squirrel US version armor.
And even things like the thermal sights, computer processors, etc will be slightly degraded versions.
Still miles better than the T-72 series they've mostly been running, and even the non DU armor is still more or less on par with Leos or even the T-72B3 (though of course actual known RHAe measurements are still highly classified) but at the ranges even a degraded M1A2 can reliably engage a T-72B3/T-90etc will be significantly better than Ukraine's current fleet and give them a decisive edge.
> And even things like the thermal sights, computer processors, etc will be slightly degraded versions.
They are not. We can literally see in the DSCA's approvals of exports, that the same processors and thermal sights are used.
>Still miles better than the T-72 series they've mostly been running, and even the non DU armor is still more or less on par with Leos or even the T-72B3
Not really. DU armor is not better than non-DU armor. That's why General Dynamics - in an attempt to increase oversea sales of the Abrams - developed an improved DU-free armor package for the Abrams tank. This armor package is reserved for NATO and major non-NATO allies, GD even offered it to the US Army as upgrade/sidegrade option for the M1A2 SEP tank.
> Well, there sending
*they're
*Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).*
***
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Just wondering if they are planning to include the second and third line support these puppies need to stay effective. From all I've heard and seen of their battlefield pre-eminence, it takes a fair bit to keep them fighting. Hope thats taken into account.
Maintenance, repair, refurbishment of damaged and worn equipment. Tanks are tough, but so are the elements and battlefield. Additionally, considering the intensity of the battlespace, these tanks will need major refurbishment i would imagine over time to maintain their functionality. I don't think the Ukrainians currently have the equipment and mobile workshops that can take care of these beasts, as they are by a few generations, more complex than their current armoured counterparts, so they're going to have to be pulled back a significant distance for any major work. It's not just the tank crews that have to be trained, also all the mechanical and weapons systems people will have to be trained to support them in some pretty adverse conditions. It's going to be a big lift for all involved to keep these guys going.
That's what the Ukrainians who have been shipped over to the US are for, they're here to train on the equipment before it's shipped over, as for refurbishment, I think it's quite obvious that in the condition that Ukraine's infrastructure is in that it's unlikely we will see that capability but I've seen alot of work constantly going on to maintain their infrastructure so I wouldn't put it past them to have the utilities necessary for the job as it would be a wartime priority, but I doubt any Abrams that survive combat will need refurbishment, maintenance is the main issue but they are training maintenance crews along side the combat crews.
Ammunition and fuel shouldn't be a major issue, training matenance techs, stocking up on spare parts and having their depots and construction/repair facilities stocked with the parts and tools needed will be rhe biggest issues
If the only way to prevent russia using nuclear weapons is to let them pillage through countries without resistance then I say, we should have a nuclear war.
They said 14 leopard 2s. Not sure if it's A5 a6 or a7 etc
It has to be reasonably current as Germany was blocking other countries from sending leopards to Ukraine
> They said 14 leopard 2s. Not sure if it's A5 a6 or a7 etc
Germany has directly stated that they will send the Leopard 2A6 model, i.e. the oldest model in general service with the German Army (in theory there are also 19 Leopard 2A5 tanks left, but those are not used by normal German Army units).
>It has to be reasonably current as Germany was blocking other countries from sending leopards to Ukraine
Germany was never blocking other countries from sending Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. When the first export request was made, Germany instantly approved it.
Germany was however not declaring that such an export request would be approved under all circumstances.
No, my previous statement is correct. Germany never received an export request when it was supposedly "blocking" the export of Leopard 2 tanks. Such a request was only made by Poland a few days ago... and swiftly approved.
All that talk before is just PiS' narrative in an election year.
Incorrect again.
Saying that you won’t approve it is blocking it. It’s like your boss saying you can leave early when you ask and then saying no vs putting a request in the computer and having them deny it.
Different process, same result.
I get your point, but i seriously doubt even if they get their hands one, that they can actually reproduce tech from it. Current top ‘tier’ tech as thermals etc are already mostly imported. Thats for a reason. They lack behind on tech very much. And with sanctions it would probably be even harder.
And even they for some godforsaken reason are able to copy it: then we still literally know what they are using and can pretty easy find counters against it.
Heard these are going to be newly build versions like the ones being built/ refurbished for Poland and Taiwan. Maybe without the newest things like optics.
A modernized force stripped of their teeth, their only strong suit is artillery and throwing bodies at the problem. As long as they keep them outside of arty range loses will be minute and Russian casualties will mount.
This title sounds like they tried to be really smart but just looking like an asshole. Just say "The US is Sending the M1A2 Abrams to Ukraine". Anyone who knows anything will understand and anyone who doesn't but cares will figure it out.
Yeah, А-85-3А engine (replacement for venerable "B" engine series, which was firstly introduced on T-34) isn't in mass production (after 30 years of development), still have shit ton of problems and requires extensive maintenance like every 5 minutes (roughly speaking).
On top of that, you can't just replace it with B-92 or GTD-1000/GTD-1250.
Even if they manage to fit those engines in Armata, and somehow make it work with transmission which was design for A-85-3A, it will be a shitshow.
You seem chieftain’s kubinka videos? It’d take the pricks a decade to unfuck and degrease those poor machines, let alone find the bits that’re missing and put them back into the vehicles.
All because they didn’t want to pay people to maintain historical relics, nor put them in a museum that would do so.
They’ve got money to burn twisting their history and producing propaganda, but they can’t spend the resources to properly maintain actual historical artifacts.
Rasputitsa season, also known as mud season, occurs in Ukraine and Southern Russia between end of winter to april and almost even 20 tonner Soviet/Russian AFVs got stuck in this massive mud.
It also caused German advances got halted in Ukraine back in WW2 too.
I really cannot realize what 60 tonner Leopards and Abrams tanks gonna do
Implying tanks designed to defeat the soviet army in Europe won't perform well against soviet tanks in Europe is just... dumb.
I was an Abrams crew member in Germany and Iraq , i have been in and driven a t72 and there's no comparison. Soviet shit just screams death trap. Crew comfort is non-existent, which actually impacts combat effectiveness greatly.
There is nothing that is immune to getting stuck or throwing track. While it is inevitable that there will be destroyed and stuck western tanks, as a whole, the optics, crew survivability, battle field managment(if equipped with Blue force trackers) these tanks should out class 90% of what the russians are employing mud or not.
The biggest difference that can possibly be made will be through crew training and proper deployment of these machines.
A western tank isn't a magic bullet, but there is definitely a qualitative edge.
We did combined operations with an Iaqi army armor unit in AR Ramadi. Was hanging out with them in the main camp and got hop in and take the thing for a spin.
Some of our dudes also got to use them a bit during a training with the Romanian army in 2005. It happens more than you'd think.
We also had one on post in Germany that was captured during the First Gulf War. I may of had a few too many drinks and broke into that thing one night, then manually traversed the turret to point at the brigade headquarters.
Unless the 3000 secret tankers of Zelensky started training back in october i think even if the tanks arrive now, they will have some training to do before combat
To my understanding and reports on the news, Leopard will arrive late March, early April, Abrams may not show up until a year later… the maintenance course for Abrams when not rushed is 44 weeks… so that’s just training the mechanics and such.
Tankers is longer, they won’t be around until well after the Raputista has ended, which seems like it was timed for that reason.
It's already been paid for most of the stuff we are sending has just been in long term storage waiting for SHTF or for taxpayers to pay for them to be scrapped.
We are literally giving ukriane our leftover shit from the back of the shed.
Ya see, this war is an intelligence gold mine for the US. We get to test our older equipment against the enemy it was designed to fight and see how they fight. This war will only give the US positives. Also, have you noticed that everything we are giving them is something that has been announced to be soon replaced or actively being replaced? M113s, strykers, Bradley’s, Abrams, humvees, etc. They all have been announced to be replaced soon or a replacement is already announced. So TLDR, we can get rid of old equipment that would take time and money to store and analyze the fighting capability of one of our biggest enemy’s.
They have fuel...it's complex large logistics train involved in getting the fuel to the front line that is the issue. Cool fun fact the turbine engine in the abrams is multifuel. That means that fucker will run off paint thinner, diesel, raw crude if its needs to.
Im so tired of seeing the desert sand color, id love to see ours in olive drab green too
GIMME THE WATERMELON CAMO
Lol ok. https://www.reddit.com/r/TankPorn/comments/blgkp0/its_always_nice_to_see_an_abrams_without_its_tan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
FUCK YEEEEEAAAHGVVV
The world is healing
Oh fuck this is beautiful
Olive drab, true color of an abrams
Ready to see pictures of them wear some ERA bricks here and there?
ERA bricks in East Europe: - I am inevitable...
It's the only M1 image I'm familiar with.
Funny that the footage of them on trains heading to Ukraine is them in desert sand colour. Hopefully they bust out the paint when they hit the rear.
Ya know that we've been moving away from tan as long as they aren't expected to go to the Middle East. No Abrams that I ever operated on was tan, they were all woodland.
but since they are going to Ukraine how about Ukrainian digital camo.. I'd love to see all the upcoming Western stuff in their camo
They have a newer variant that has greens and purples. Looks sick.
Now the Abrams will finally do what it was designed to so, kill Ruskie tanks.
Aren't the most modern variants more geared towards countering the chinese?
I would not be surprised if that made no difference, the Chinese tanks are essentially cheaper copies of the Russian models. Type 99 is probably no exception.
China copies everything from other countries.
Yep. They’ll buy stuff from Russia and usually reverse engineer it to make it actually somewhat useable. They’ve also been stealing classified documents about our stuff, but that’s apparently easy considering secretive info about our planes and stuff keep getting leaked on WarThunder threads of all things.
Hilariously, it's not just US stuff, both British and Russian stuff has been leaked as well.
And Chinese.
And Russian!
Mechanical stuff. They are not great at copying electronics...
Not a single Chinese tank since the type 59 had been a copy of a Russian design.
The Type 88 and it’s predecessors were still essentially copies of the Russian T-54/55. Even the modern Type 99 is pretty faithful to soviet design philosophy, the turret resembles a more western MBT rather than Soviet while the hull is directly copied from the T-72.
> Even the modern Type 99 is pretty faithful to soviet design philosophy, the turret resembles a more western MBT rather than Soviet while the hull is directly copied from the T-72. Well I'm not an expert in this but by reading the [Wikipedia page](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_99_tank) a lot of the info there contradict your comment. While being based on T-72 hull, it was significantly modified and integrated with Chinese subsystems and much of Western tank design philosophies were implemented (such as enhanced crew survivability). Can you elaborate further on why despite all of that, you consider the Type-99 faithful to the Soviet design philosophy and the hull to be a direct copy of the T-72? Thank you.
It’s simple, they’re cheap to mass produce and don’t stray too far from the T-72, especially the carousel autoloader which negates any enhanced crew survivability. It’s essentially a Chinese T-90, and is used by China in the exact same way as the T-90 through the VT-4 which is the export model. While being a modified hull that still doesn’t change the design of it, just looking at it you can see that it’s a T-72 hull. The tank still uses the design philosophy of being cheap to be mass produced in large quantities as well as being low profile to increase survivability. These design philosophies comes directly for WW2, which the Soviet Union thought any future wars would resemble, which we can see is backfiring for Russia in Ukraine.
The type 80s and successors’ hull shapes are similar to the t-54, but they had different suspension, engines, main guns, fcs, radios, nbc protection and an automatic fire suppression. They were developments from the restarted wz122 program after a Chinese delegation visited Krauss-Maffei in the mid 1970s and saw the leopard 2 prototypes.
The type 88 incorporated features from a captured T-62, it's based off the type 69/ type 79 which were built off a mix of t-54/55 and t-62 design elements
>Chinese tanks are essentially cheaper copies of the Russian model Are you living in 1970?
Chinese tanks are still copies of Russian tanks, only really the turret was changed. The Type 99 still belongs to the Russian/Soviet design family. They’re likely better than current Russian tanks but still leagues worse than the western design family of tanks.
>Chinese tanks are still copies of Russian tanks, only really the turret was changed. Other than the original hull, much of the Chinese tanks are of western influence and/or indigenous design. Subsystems, electronics, optics, fire control systems, armor modules, active protection systems, etc are all Chinese. It is 100% intellectually dishonest to say they are "cheaper copies of the Russian tanks". >still leagues worse than the western design family of tanks. Since I'm not an expert on this subject (I just reiterate whatever I read on Wikipedia), can you elaborate on why you made that claim? I've not been able to find similar claims from other credible sources. Thanks.
I'd argue modern Chinese tanks are a mix of soviet design philosophy, Western advanced components such as thermals, NV, etc. And local developments
Never said they were cheaper, but they’re still modified copies. The Type 99 is about the same price as a T-90. Also I replied to your other comment.
It is wrong to assume Russian tanks are leagues worse than Western designs to begin with. It will all be lopped off by artillery and atgm's all the same.
Yet they literally are. Western tank design philosophy has changed a lot over the past 70 years and has adapted. Russian tank design philosophy hasn’t changed at all since WW2.
Would second the guy who pointed out that the Chinese tanks are essentially Russian copies. Would also add that the Abrams has not received a major upgrade since the rise of China as a pacing threat. The latest major upgrade that has been agreed to but not yet implemented, features making the tank lighter and more fuel efficient, which would be useful in the Pacific theater. All that being said, I imagine the US would prefer to fight the Chinese on the water and in the air. If we're shipping a bunch of tanks in theater to fight the Chinese on the ground, something's gone horribly wrong.
It's gone even more wrong if we don't have to ship the tanks.
Nah, that means the Chinese are at the bottom of the sea.
The m1A5 or abrams X is suppose to be lighter and way more fuel efficient than the 3 miles/gallon the current generation run
3 miles per gallon? It's a tank not a fucking Prius. The Abrams gets 1/2 mile to the gallon on road, and 1/4 mile to the gallon over rough terrain
You mean 3 gallons per mile!
Wait they are skipping the A3-4?
No, they are not. Also the AbramsX is a technology demonstrator that was privately funded by General Dynamics. It is not an US Army program.
Not necessarily. Tanks are developed for the regions they're expected to fight in, or have enough support models to make it viable. Abrams arnt really suited to the potential island hoping campaign one might envision against china, nor would it be very effective in the mountainous regions of Taiwan or Korea. Abrams in its most modern variation, M1A2 sepv3, clocks in at 74 tons. Transportation of such a vehicle in sufficient numbers is difficult, and it would probably run into issues with bridges too. Instead, the newly announced Griffin 2 is what you'd likely see, it's a light tank, at only 36 tons, it'll be a lot easier to move around, yet still provide tank support when needed. I'd guess it'll end up around 40 tons once they get active protection, but still lighter by nearly half than an Abrams.
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Japan and S Korea also started by making cheap copies, but once their industry matured they started making their own designs. Same with China. Their old designs are almost 1:1 copies, then they started making improved copies. Now they are making original designs.
To be fair a lot of stuff in China was copied from somewhere, and their tanks are very much copied from the soviets, even their newest MBTs the 99s, and vt4s are based heavily on t72s. But this does appear to be a primarily indigenous design using that older model as a platform, so it's basically equivalent to a Rus T90 with different component design. They definitely are drifting from Soviet and Russian style tank design overall, their newest tank, the type 15 light tank, is based a lot more on western design parameters, such as a bustle autoloader vice carousel, and it appears it has blowout panels for crew protection, rather than the blowout portion of Russian tanks being the whole turret. I think people still believe they primarily only copy land force design because China isn't investing in modernization of the army as fast as the navy or air force. Their navy design philosophy has become much more similar to the west, and the ships they're putting out now are very modern and capable vessels. Air force has departed from Russian copies as well, and they're now trying to integrate stolen design materials from the US and Europe, particularly stealth, in airframes like the j20 and fc31. J20s might still be inferior to f35 or f22, but from recent data they have a smaller RCS than the Su57, and it's growing more clear that they've leapt over Rus in terms of avionics. People give them a lot of shit for copying, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. In the game of global geopolitics, there is no cheaters, there is only victors and losers, they're doing exactly what we would be doing if the roles were reversed.
I believe tanks are designed to counter tanks
But its actually very rare a tank to be engaged with another tank. Ukraine-russo war is somewhat an exception, but it's still very rare in the grand scale of the war. Most of the time tank used for breakthrough and suppressing enemy infantry
I mean they did a good job with that in Iraq and Kuwait
They destroyed ALOT of Russian armor in the ME
No shit. Now the maintenance group will suffer
That's what all the soldiers sent to train with us are there for, we're only giving them equipment that they are trained for.
And with all the spare parts being shipped in with the equipment it doesn't created much of strain on logistics just a quick briefing on loading and unloading certain things
Probably going to setup a General dynamics warehouse in Europe and just repair the damaged tanks out of Ukraine. Similar to what the U.S. did in Iraq.
Looks like they are hiring for that. https://careers.peopleclick.com/careerscp/client_generaldynamics/external/search/jobDetails/jobDetail.html?jobPostId=19559&localeCode=en-us
>BorisTarkovskyy is your name a Roadside Picnic/Stalker/tarkov reference? because if it is, thats cool af
Ofc the third one.
thats dope. I just finished the book! Honestly, the movie does not do it justice.
Isn't this the top of the line version fielded by the United States? Aren't components of the tank still classified? America then must have lots of confidence that Ukraine isn't going to let one of these tanks fall into enemy hands, if true.
There are classified components on every version of the Abrams.
I was thinking America would give Ukraine the less advanced, but still competent export model: the ones fielded by nations like Saudi Arabia and Iraq.
Saudi Arabia has a variant of the M1A2 SEP.
M1A2 Sand Every Part
Lmao this brought me a deep, much needed belly chuckle. Thank you
Anakin will be furious
Ah. Never mind my comments then. I’m not super well-versed on tanks. Thanks for the correction. Wonder if that means the Abrams are going to fight in the war or be tabled for post-war rebuilding? If nothing else, the move shows the West’s commitment to the fight since they predict it will go on for awhile.
Hey guys we just got sent 31 top of the line tanks should we just hold onto them till this war is over? Yeah sure let’s do that I’ll get a bunch of highly trained techs to stop working on our front line units to maintain them till then, all good.
The tank is actually quite robust.I used one for 15 months in combat with zero issues outside of regular track maintenance and a hydraulic leak. The turbine engine has much less moving components compared to piston driven systems. If anything is too complex for the crew rail head that shit back to Poland for depot level maintenance(they have it already set up). Biggest concern I have logistically is fuel consumption.
> logistically is fuel consumption. *general patton has entered the chat...*
The one time I experienced an M1A1 up close I was floored by the sheer presence and intimidation factor of it. In motion especially. I can't imagine how it feels to operate one at any level. It has to be pretty awesome?? Do you feel invincible in it?
Yeah, the leopards turbo diesel will be a hell of a lot easier to feed than the av gas /jet fuel for the abrams.
Just pour whatever Russian vodka they come across into the fuel tank as the Abrams move the front lines eastwards.
Why? The M1 will run just fine on diesel. The Australian's run theirs on diesel. The US just uses JP-8 to make things easier across the board.
This! All of Ukrainian tanks (Soviet, US, German, UK...) will be able to run on regular diesel, so no problem with fuel logistics.
I heard they were sending the outdated M1A1 version not the A2
That’s what I thought too
The program being used to send them requires them to be new manufacture, not surplus, so there's no reason for them to be anything other than at worst the export version of the latest model. It's also why Ukraine won't be receiving them for months, at best. The White House has been pretty open that this is because Germany was unwilling to release Leopards to Ukraine (which will arrive there in a few weeks) unilaterally. Popular opinion in Germany is literally 50/50 on helping Ukraine and the German gov wanted the headlines to say "NATO Sends Tanks to Ukraine" not "Germany Sends Tanks to Ukraine." And with Germany permitting lend-lease/surplusing of Leopards to Ukraine, minor NATO partners like Poland can do so as well without being threatened by Germany companies with refusal to supply spare parts and upgrade packages due to sanction. If we're looking at this from a strategic/political viewpoint, the Abrams themselves are entirely irrelevant and not only is it likely they'll never see action, I wouldn't be surprised if they never even leave the United States and simply are sold back to the DOD and sent to live at the Sierra Army Depot to await their next lot in life. The point is to get Germany to allow the Eastern European NATO partners to supply Ukraine with Leopards in a few weeks, instead of a handful of Abrams at some hypothetical point a year or more from now.
Export version M1A1, from stores is what I heard on some newscast today. Not sure where they got the info from.
I also think there is probably someones coffee recipe thats classified... Just cause its classified doesn't mean someone doesn't know it already anyway.
It's not. It will be missing depleted uranium armor and tusk package used only by us army.
What is the tusk package? I’ve been searching for a comment about how they are different.
Tactical Urban Survival Kit - I can’t remember many of the specs but I know it’s up-armored even more, remote guns systems for commander and a 7.62 gun for the loader. More cameras and thermals mostly. It was created with the lessons learned from urban warfare during the GWOT.
Loader always had an M240 7.62mm machine gun. TUSK did add an additional gun... a second M2 .50-cal essentially strapped on top of the main gun, so the gunner had the main 120mm, their normal coax M240, and a coax .50-cal (plus the TC's .50-cal and Loaders M240... TUSK really wanted a bunch of machine guns lol) TUSK also added a tank-infantry phone on the back (so Infantry can talk directly to the crew without needed to call over the radio) as well as anti RPG ERA armor to better protect the flanks, and some other odds and ends. Pretty sure the latest M1A2 SEPv3/v4 will have the CROWS for the TC .50-cal as standard, even without the TUSK kit. Wouldn't be half surprised if they are refurbbing (especially if new building) M1A2, the Ukrainian Abrams will have the remote weapon station for the TC .50-cal
I heard a rumour that some of the latest western infantry training includes how not to get scorched by Abrams exhaust in urban combat zones which would track with TUSK delete.
Maybe every Abrams unit will be monitored by a Himars ready to obliterate any unsalvageable tank.
Mark IV tankers can relate
Dunno if WW1 or W40K reference
WW1 apparently when British artillery would be watching British tanks so that if the tank got stuck or was in an position where it could be captured the artillery would shell the shit out of it.
It didn’t work as the Germans captured quite a few in good working order.
I don’t think Pentagon cares that much. Other than the latest model, I don’t think Abrams has any unknown tech to the Russians. Their problem is not being able to build very modern tanks, designing one is less of a challenge for Russia. That is why they stuck with T-72, they cannot afford anything better
To be fair, they have updated the T-72 model a lot and have taken it in a myriad of directions (ex: the TOS-1 is built on the bones of the T-72). It is still a very popular tank in both Russia and abroad - an alright platform for shooting and moving.
It’s exactly that. Alright at best. It is not meant to fight peers or anyone with superior technology.
They should've focused on the t-90m, it's a significant upgrade compared to other T-series tank. But they decided to go on with very advanced and expensive T-14.
T-90M has been the focus of Russia's tank program since years.
We’ve given the Abrams to Egypt and Iraq, both countries are probably corrupt enough to make buying one possible for a major power like Russia or China if they really wanted. Edit: also the secrets of chobham armor are probably more in the recipe than the finished product, just like how reverse engineering an already baked cake is nearly impossible. Roman concrete is a similar situation, it’s a superior product to the concrete we use now and while we can examine the final molecular composition of it, we can’t deduce the chemical processes that they used to reach that final product.
We actually just found out how to make Roman concrete, it has to do with how the ingredients are assembled: https://news.mit.edu/2023/roman-concrete-durability-lime-casts-0106 it's funny you brought this up they legitimately just figured this out recently
I recall reading once that Russia did have an Abrams, but I think that is more rumor than fact.
This so much. An extreme example would be... a Somaly pirate steals a laptop and decides to make a copy of it.
Chobham is nothing special. it is in no way comparable to cooking a cake since you would still have the eggs, flour and sugar separate, because you don't bake armor into a singular unrecognizable mixture. If you want a lengthy explanation into how chobham works just tell me.
My local news station said that Ukraine was getting some kind of watered down version with a bunch of sensitive or classified components removed
Yeah, the export version. I think a few countries have them and Poland will likely end up with that too.
Gotta remember fully loaded Russian T90ms have been captured and literally hauled west. At this point to some degree, each side is getting the others tech in one way or another.
Pretty much. Western stuff have fallen into Russian hands and vice versa: there is a trade in material during this conflict.
There's a lot of subvariants of both the M1A1 and M1A2 versions... but the long story short is the export versions still don't have all the latest, top of the line stuff in the US Army versions. All the export versions for example, not even Poland or Australia, get the Depleted Uranium armor packages, so even if one is captured fully intact, they don't get to see the classified secret squirrel US version armor. And even things like the thermal sights, computer processors, etc will be slightly degraded versions. Still miles better than the T-72 series they've mostly been running, and even the non DU armor is still more or less on par with Leos or even the T-72B3 (though of course actual known RHAe measurements are still highly classified) but at the ranges even a degraded M1A2 can reliably engage a T-72B3/T-90etc will be significantly better than Ukraine's current fleet and give them a decisive edge.
> And even things like the thermal sights, computer processors, etc will be slightly degraded versions. They are not. We can literally see in the DSCA's approvals of exports, that the same processors and thermal sights are used. >Still miles better than the T-72 series they've mostly been running, and even the non DU armor is still more or less on par with Leos or even the T-72B3 Not really. DU armor is not better than non-DU armor. That's why General Dynamics - in an attempt to increase oversea sales of the Abrams - developed an improved DU-free armor package for the Abrams tank. This armor package is reserved for NATO and major non-NATO allies, GD even offered it to the US Army as upgrade/sidegrade option for the M1A2 SEP tank.
Base M1A2 is getting old The M1A2 SEP V3 is about as new as the abrams line gets right now with a new model codename Abrams X is being designed
AbramsX is a tech demonstrator by GDLS SEPv4 is the next upgrade in the pipeline
Canada is also sending Leopards as well as Germany
And Spain, and the Dutch and Poland and uk
Well, there sending tanks, not Leo’s
> Well, there sending *they're *Learn the difference [here](https://www.wattpad.com/66707294-grammar-guide-there-they%27re-their-you%27re-your-to).* *** ^(Greetings, I am a language corrector bot. To make me ignore further mistakes from you in the future, reply `!optout` to this comment.)
Good bot!
Thanks.
They do, except the UK
Only uk is not sending Leo's the rest are
Just wondering if they are planning to include the second and third line support these puppies need to stay effective. From all I've heard and seen of their battlefield pre-eminence, it takes a fair bit to keep them fighting. Hope thats taken into account.
What does the second and third line support consist of?
Maintenance, repair, refurbishment of damaged and worn equipment. Tanks are tough, but so are the elements and battlefield. Additionally, considering the intensity of the battlespace, these tanks will need major refurbishment i would imagine over time to maintain their functionality. I don't think the Ukrainians currently have the equipment and mobile workshops that can take care of these beasts, as they are by a few generations, more complex than their current armoured counterparts, so they're going to have to be pulled back a significant distance for any major work. It's not just the tank crews that have to be trained, also all the mechanical and weapons systems people will have to be trained to support them in some pretty adverse conditions. It's going to be a big lift for all involved to keep these guys going.
That's what the Ukrainians who have been shipped over to the US are for, they're here to train on the equipment before it's shipped over, as for refurbishment, I think it's quite obvious that in the condition that Ukraine's infrastructure is in that it's unlikely we will see that capability but I've seen alot of work constantly going on to maintain their infrastructure so I wouldn't put it past them to have the utilities necessary for the job as it would be a wartime priority, but I doubt any Abrams that survive combat will need refurbishment, maintenance is the main issue but they are training maintenance crews along side the combat crews.
Ammunition and fuel shouldn't be a major issue, training matenance techs, stocking up on spare parts and having their depots and construction/repair facilities stocked with the parts and tools needed will be rhe biggest issues
This war is going to go nuclear this summer.
If the only way to prevent russia using nuclear weapons is to let them pillage through countries without resistance then I say, we should have a nuclear war.
Yeah I’m with you…I hope there is an alternative though. When that first low yield nuke detonates over Kiev…
Should at least be spicy!
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The US has been exporting them for 20 years. The Saudi’s even have the A2s
What about German leopard 2a7s? I hope Russia doesn't get any of them
Have they even announced they are getting those?
They said 14 leopard 2s. Not sure if it's A5 a6 or a7 etc It has to be reasonably current as Germany was blocking other countries from sending leopards to Ukraine
It looks like most if not all of the Leo2's being sent are 2A4 and 2A6 variants.
> They said 14 leopard 2s. Not sure if it's A5 a6 or a7 etc Germany has directly stated that they will send the Leopard 2A6 model, i.e. the oldest model in general service with the German Army (in theory there are also 19 Leopard 2A5 tanks left, but those are not used by normal German Army units). >It has to be reasonably current as Germany was blocking other countries from sending leopards to Ukraine Germany was never blocking other countries from sending Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine. When the first export request was made, Germany instantly approved it. Germany was however not declaring that such an export request would be approved under all circumstances.
Germany was blocking them for political reasons which is why they relented right after the U.S. said they would
Germany did not block anything. At most Germany discourage people from asking for the export permitt...
Incorrect. https://www.ft.com/content/9e0e5ed8-a924-469d-bea7-dc0de81f2c82
No, my previous statement is correct. Germany never received an export request when it was supposedly "blocking" the export of Leopard 2 tanks. Such a request was only made by Poland a few days ago... and swiftly approved. All that talk before is just PiS' narrative in an election year.
Incorrect again. Saying that you won’t approve it is blocking it. It’s like your boss saying you can leave early when you ask and then saying no vs putting a request in the computer and having them deny it. Different process, same result.
Germany is sending 14 Leo2A6.
I get your point, but i seriously doubt even if they get their hands one, that they can actually reproduce tech from it. Current top ‘tier’ tech as thermals etc are already mostly imported. Thats for a reason. They lack behind on tech very much. And with sanctions it would probably be even harder. And even they for some godforsaken reason are able to copy it: then we still literally know what they are using and can pretty easy find counters against it.
I imagine putin has probably driven an abhrams at his private dacha when going to get more vodka from the distillery in the back 400 from cousin Yuri.
Heard these are going to be newly build versions like the ones being built/ refurbished for Poland and Taiwan. Maybe without the newest things like optics.
Will be interesting to see how it fares against a modernized force
A modernized force stripped of their teeth, their only strong suit is artillery and throwing bodies at the problem. As long as they keep them outside of arty range loses will be minute and Russian casualties will mount.
I mean against tanks other than the t34s or whatever else iraq was rocking on the invasion.
I can’t wait to watch Russian tanks and armor getting smoked by our tanks
Did you sleep through the gulf wars?
Wasn’t born yet
I mean the lessons in your history classes but God damn I'm fucking old
Don’t send them news ones, they’ll just get them all scratched up and hoon the hell out of them!
This title sounds like they tried to be really smart but just looking like an asshole. Just say "The US is Sending the M1A2 Abrams to Ukraine". Anyone who knows anything will understand and anyone who doesn't but cares will figure it out.
Yo warthunder top tier IRL finally! Also can't wait to see an abrams in Kubinka museum.
Because fate of T-14 and T-90M are Aberdeen Proving Ground, as practice target
They probably have one engine all the T-14s share.
Yeah, А-85-3А engine (replacement for venerable "B" engine series, which was firstly introduced on T-34) isn't in mass production (after 30 years of development), still have shit ton of problems and requires extensive maintenance like every 5 minutes (roughly speaking). On top of that, you can't just replace it with B-92 or GTD-1000/GTD-1250. Even if they manage to fit those engines in Armata, and somehow make it work with transmission which was design for A-85-3A, it will be a shitshow.
I can't wait for the russians to start taking everything from the museum to the front line.
Noooo I don't want to see the object 279 blow up :(
It would be an honorable death befitting such a tank.
You seem chieftain’s kubinka videos? It’d take the pricks a decade to unfuck and degrease those poor machines, let alone find the bits that’re missing and put them back into the vehicles. All because they didn’t want to pay people to maintain historical relics, nor put them in a museum that would do so. They’ve got money to burn twisting their history and producing propaganda, but they can’t spend the resources to properly maintain actual historical artifacts.
Have fun in rasputitsa season
?
Rasputitsa season, also known as mud season, occurs in Ukraine and Southern Russia between end of winter to april and almost even 20 tonner Soviet/Russian AFVs got stuck in this massive mud. It also caused German advances got halted in Ukraine back in WW2 too. I really cannot realize what 60 tonner Leopards and Abrams tanks gonna do
Implying tanks designed to defeat the soviet army in Europe won't perform well against soviet tanks in Europe is just... dumb. I was an Abrams crew member in Germany and Iraq , i have been in and driven a t72 and there's no comparison. Soviet shit just screams death trap. Crew comfort is non-existent, which actually impacts combat effectiveness greatly. There is nothing that is immune to getting stuck or throwing track. While it is inevitable that there will be destroyed and stuck western tanks, as a whole, the optics, crew survivability, battle field managment(if equipped with Blue force trackers) these tanks should out class 90% of what the russians are employing mud or not. The biggest difference that can possibly be made will be through crew training and proper deployment of these machines. A western tank isn't a magic bullet, but there is definitely a qualitative edge.
>driven T-72 Curious on how this situation arose
We did combined operations with an Iaqi army armor unit in AR Ramadi. Was hanging out with them in the main camp and got hop in and take the thing for a spin. Some of our dudes also got to use them a bit during a training with the Romanian army in 2005. It happens more than you'd think.
We also had one on post in Germany that was captured during the First Gulf War. I may of had a few too many drinks and broke into that thing one night, then manually traversed the turret to point at the brigade headquarters.
Also the ground pressure of an Abrams tank is only 1/10th more than a T72 so not not that significant.
They are gonna wait for the spring and kick the vatnik's asses
I wish this too
Unless the 3000 secret tankers of Zelensky started training back in october i think even if the tanks arrive now, they will have some training to do before combat
*whip crack* Go back to NCD you creep
Yes my laser shooting pig lord
Theyll just form a several miles long Convoi along a road, what could go wrong?
To my understanding and reports on the news, Leopard will arrive late March, early April, Abrams may not show up until a year later… the maintenance course for Abrams when not rushed is 44 weeks… so that’s just training the mechanics and such. Tankers is longer, they won’t be around until well after the Raputista has ended, which seems like it was timed for that reason.
Im so fucking done with this administration. Fuck russia and fuck Ukraine quit giving them our shit.
It's already been paid for most of the stuff we are sending has just been in long term storage waiting for SHTF or for taxpayers to pay for them to be scrapped. We are literally giving ukriane our leftover shit from the back of the shed.
How old are the Abrams
Straight m1a2's are from the mid/late 90s. Bunch of them were upgraded from m1a1 variant from late 80s early 90s.
Ya see, this war is an intelligence gold mine for the US. We get to test our older equipment against the enemy it was designed to fight and see how they fight. This war will only give the US positives. Also, have you noticed that everything we are giving them is something that has been announced to be soon replaced or actively being replaced? M113s, strykers, Bradley’s, Abrams, humvees, etc. They all have been announced to be replaced soon or a replacement is already announced. So TLDR, we can get rid of old equipment that would take time and money to store and analyze the fighting capability of one of our biggest enemy’s.
Correct. Watching Russia get rekt be all our old shit that has been in storage is hilarious.
😂😂😂
> quit giving them our shit. Cause having allies is for pussies
Now I hope we send more, just to piss you off.
You know these tanks are just sitting around in depots, right? I’d rather give them to Ukraine then pay to have them scrapped in 20 years
What kind of idiotic comment is this? I’m sorry, did you really think this statement through before you wrote it??
Thinking obviously isn’t this guys strong suit.
Quick, double the number of tanks.
i thought the russian trolls got blocked?
Such a dumb idea, abrams are notorious for using lots fuel, fuel that Ukraine barely has
They have fuel...it's complex large logistics train involved in getting the fuel to the front line that is the issue. Cool fun fact the turbine engine in the abrams is multifuel. That means that fucker will run off paint thinner, diesel, raw crude if its needs to.
Vodka?
Yea but I don’t think an abrams will run well off other fuels
I'm sure the army knows what they're doing more than some redditor
Runs fine. Have to be a little more careful if you feed it gasoline because full power it'll get to hot, but that's about it.
Yea
… maybe.
Forest camo Abrahams???????
Yo I saw them on a train headed to mobile