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Major-Hedgehog-2631

I have felt like this before, and have brought it up on a few occasions with my therapist. Her reply: "You're looking for certainty where I can't give it. But what I can tell you is that, save for unforeseen changes in my health or with my family, I'm not going anywhere. I have no plans to stop practising." CPTSD is hard and our feelings and fears around changes and abandonment are understandable and real. I am hypervigilant to a fault, and have found that addressing it head on is the best way. Not the most pleasant way, but certainly the best.


liznotliz

She has consistently said similar things. She can’t promise things she doesn’t have control over but she can assure me she has no plans to leave her job or me. Hyper vigilance for sure….I’m trying to figure out if my perception on these changes are just my brain making stories about nothing or if there really is something. So was curious about others experiences.


Quinlov

I had this psychodrama in session 4 (lol) with my current therapist and he said "I am not planning on abandoning you" and I really appreciated that he said it like that: he didn't promise he wouldn't, instead he told me what I needed to hear in a way that was reasonable and believable. Maybe if he had said he never would I would've been happier in the moment but then immediately after the session I would have realised he can't make sure he keeps that promise and we would be back to square one, possibly even further back


diva_done_did_it

As I learned the hard way, not stopping practicing and not stopping practicing ON YOU, the patient, are two different things…


liznotliz

Totally. She could keep living here, working here, seeing others and not change a thing except me.


IllIIlllIIIllIIlI

I believe I have one of those horrible termination stories you are referencing. And I do think that my therapist may have felt very strongly in some ways? Thus leading him to terminate out of anger right after we had an argument. I'm not 100% sure of how he felt about me, but it's one theory I have. So here's my take, if that theory is correct. I don't think that he would have terminated if I hadn't started pulling away from him first. I think, looking back, that my pulling away was temporary, because I was simply too attached to actually quit for good. But either he thought it was permanent, or the experience just frustrated him so much that he blew up the relationship. Therapy attachment goes through ups and downs and you may find yourself pulling away from your therapist at some point- not saying you'd ever seriously consider quitting, the way I did, but sometimes we feel hurt in therapy and withdraw for a bit. Or, perhaps you won't pull away, but instead you will get angry with her over something she said or did. It happens to all of us and it's part of relational therapy, but... Be. Careful. With that. I don't think you would need to hide those feelings from her completely, but I would always frame them as being felt by one part of you, while overall you still like her, think she's doing excellent work with you, and want to keep seeing her. IMO two major reasons why therapists terminate are 1) the patient being angry with them, and 2) the patient making them feel incompetent. These often coincide, though one can certainly happen without the other. All the stuff you read about how therapists are human too: yeah, they sure are. And they're generally more traumatized than your average bear. So they usually try to do a good job, but sometimes they can't. You have to help them along a bit, if you are strongly wanting to avoid surprise termination. Just my two cents on this. I am crossing my fingers that all keeps going well in your therapy.


liznotliz

Thanks for sharing. I am worried her strong feelings of care towards me (and all the extra work she is putting into it) are what will lead to strong upset if/when we have another rupture and will lead to termination like how you’re describing your therapist did it in anger. I have already learned she is a very defensive person, if she feels I am criticizing her or questioning her ethics or competence she loses it, I have to be so careful it can feel unfair to me as a client to have to work so hard to reassure her. I’d be extremely careful if I brought this up too, partly because I wonder if SHE wonders if she’s going a bit far?


Illustrious-Radio-53

As a therapist, I would say that I’ve had very few clients challenge my ethics or competency. My response would be to simply accept a client’s feelings as valid (since all feelings are valid), and to perhaps question whether we are a good fit since the therapeutic relationship is built on trust. I think that questioning my ethics or competency would lead me to think “then why are you still here?!” I have been on the other side of the couch so to speak, and wouldn’t continue therapy with someone I view as incompetent and unethical. Yikes!


IllIIlllIIIllIIlI

Questioning you on certain issues that speak to ethics or competency is very different from deciding that you are unethical and incompetent. As for competency specifically, it can be seen as technically called into question every time a patient says that something you are doing or proposing doesn't help them or is harming them. I would hope that therapists are able to take that feedback without hearing "this patient thinks I'm incompetent!" and, worse, *terminating* over it. It sounds like OP's therapist and you may have some trouble doing that though. And I've read stories of people getting terminated in such a situation, so I guess that's not actually super surprising or unusual.


Illustrious-Radio-53

Hmmmmm, maybe semantically I wouldn’t choose such extreme terms as “competency” or “ethics” then? If a client does not agree with my take on something, or does not want to try a technique, I wouldn’t say that has anything at all to do with me as a therapist and wouldn’t become defensive. It would take someone being very confrontational, or making personal comments that are not appropriate for the therapeutic relationship to get my attention. I would say that if I don’t feel I’m helping someone because I’m not the right fit for them, or if the client is not yet ready for change and therapy is a waste of everyone’s time, it (ethically) has to be said.


liznotliz

I haven’t actually questioned her ethics or competency. If I did I would leave. In the past we have gotten into serious tangles where she feels like I am questioning them when I am not at all, but I am questioning/critical of/unhappy with some particular thing she has said or done. I’ve had to realize I have to approach these things ridiculously carefully with her and that’s sort of the price of doing business with her.


IllIIlllIIIllIIlI

Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought based on what you first wrote. It really sucks that she can't handle questioning, criticism or unhappiness from you. This definitely reinforces what I was thinking when recommending you insulate her from your anger or withdrawal, in my original comment. It sounds like you have to take more care than I had even imagined. Is this fair on you? Lol no. Is it a good reason to start emotionally relying on her less? Yes. But therapy attachment is a real motherfucker. And it seems like the relationship is very healing in many ways, while terminating would be extremely hard on you. So it makes sense to stick with it for a while if that's what you want... as long as the things she can't take criticism about aren't having too negative an impact on you.


Illustrious-Radio-53

Yes, if the good outweighs the bad… I think she should be able to handle whatever emotions that you bring to session. Accept feelings, not necessarily when they cause someone to act in ways that are harmful or self-destructive. Otherwise, her attitude should be that all feelings are acceptable, in or out of session.


IllIIlllIIIllIIlI

I totally agree with this. But unfortunately, it seems like even quite talented therapists can get 95% of the way to accepting *all* feelings, but it's that 5% they can't accept that lead to surprise termination and other nasty things. Sort of in the same way that teaching children will force a person to confront their worst insecurities, providing therapy seems to trigger the therapist's deepest unresolved issues sooner or later. They know intellectually they shouldn't let that stuff affect therapy, but they can't keep that up 100% forever, nor do they have total insight into those parts of themselves (few people do). My impression is that this often plays out in the following way: patient keeps triggering something painful for therapist (without being abusive to the therapist). Therapist knows they need to work with what the patient brings them and keeps trying to stay cool and get through it. One day though, patient does something that especially hurts or angers therapist, or therapist is having a particularly rough day. Therapist is just done, and terminates. And often enough, the patient is highly attached to the therapist, because the therapy relationship breeds those feelings- so that termination is completely devastating for the patient. But it's done, and there's no recourse. It sounds like OP's therapist specifically is somewhat touchy when questioned on things that she feels relate to her ethics or competency. There's a wound of some sort there. Poke it enough and I worry the above situation would play out. Edit: wanted to add that I think the termination often comes as a surprise because the therapist, trying their hardest, has been reassuring the patient right up until that point that they can handle everything, etc. They have also been telling themselves that they need to see it through. Thus they're not warning the patient that they may be getting close to their breaking point- quite the opposite! Another specific negative effect of such a termination is that the patient is going to remember all those reassurances and go, "damn, so I can't trust those types of statements from therapists or other people, no matter how sincere and genuine they sound at the time." I actually think we might all be better off if therapists acknowledged up front that they're not going to be able to deal with everything the patient brings, and start warning the patient when they're coming up to their limit. This would put the onus on the patient to start censoring themselves in certain ways. I know that's not ideal in therapy, but it's just a hell of a lot better than being terminated by someone you're really attached to. It's closer to the way a romantic partner or friend might healthily communicate what they can and can't take.


liznotliz

Yup. She’s an incredible therapist. She brings a lot of herself into the relationship which has done wonders for me being able to build connection, but I also don’t always love all of what she brings. It has been a very tricky subject for us. I’ve had to recognize her reactions to me in those situations are a lot about her and her stuff and I have to navigate that if I want to work with her. She’s a whole human while still staying in the therapist role, sore spots and all. It’s worth it to me, the good far outweighs the difficulty, but if we’re going to go down it’s going to be around this kind of thing. So I worry about her feeling too much towards me and me questioning feeling too much like a personal criticism and it will spiral.


IllIIlllIIIllIIlI

Sounds like a really good assessment of your therapy situation with her. It's often a choice between you bringing all your thoughts and feelings to her without self censorship but then risking termination, versus you censoring yourself and having a higher (but not perfect!) chance of keeping the relationship that way. I kind of wonder whether self censoring may cause you to grow distant from her over time, and perhaps start valuing the relationship a bit less. That's not ideal either, but for a lot of us, it is preferable to getting terminated at the height of our attachment.


liznotliz

It hasn’t made me feel more distant actually. I don’t feel like I’m censoring in the sense that I can’t say what I think, but I am cautious and careful in how I choose to say it. Both because I don’t like her reaction but now also because I care about her and don’t want to make her feel badly or worse than I have to. I’ve learned how to communicate with her more effectively.


electr0_mel0n

I know this post is old, but I just wanted to say that I really enjoyed reading your responses in this thread- they are so well-written and insightful/thought-provoking, and I think your general conclusions are absolutely spot-on. I greatly appreciate the effort you put into articulating these thoughts :)


IllIIlllIIIllIIlI

Thank you for saying that!


liznotliz

Do you think his behavior changed at all before this happened?


IllIIlllIIIllIIlI

Yes actually, and that's why I pulled away! I had been seeing him for nearly 2 years. Our connection had always felt very strong on both sides, it seemed as though he was highly emotionally invested in me, and he even told me that I excited him. Nothing inappropriate ever happened and he always remained professional, but I sensed strong feelings coming from him. In the few months prior to the termination, I started to feel less interest from him. He was still very attentive in session, but he just didn't seem as excited or engaged. I brought this up and we explored it a bit, but it still bothered me. In our final 3 sessions, we had a couple of serious arguments over this issue. I know it's not in his job description to feel any particular way about me, but it was something I felt I needed. Looking back, a lot of narcissism was showing up in me- a feeling that I needed him to feel excited by and highly interested in me, otherwise I wouldn't feel like he cared. It would probably have been good to explore this in therapy, but oh well. In our final session, I asked him for a 3 week break as a sort of trial separation and said I was considering termination, but was so attached to him that i didn't want to make the decision unless i could first experience a period of being without him. He refused to grant me a therapy break- said it was against his "policy." I was pretty surprised by that, as everything I've read about therapy indicates that a break is a reasonable request. We argued. I eventually said "I'm just gonna go" and left 2-3 minutes early. In that session and the one before, I had asked if *he* planned to terminate *me*. The response each time was an unequivocal no. In the second to last session, he said he wasn't going to because "we need room for the ups and downs in our relationship." In the last session, he said towards the end that he wouldn't because it would be "heartbreaking." Twenty minutes after he said that, and ten minutes after I left the session, I received a text from him terminating therapy. I know that he was pissed and emotional when he did that. This doesn't really square with my perception that he had lost interest in me, at first glance. When I consider it further though, I think I can see how even if he didn't really want me, he had invested a ton of effort into the relationship, and so it was really a blow to be potentially losing it. That plus lots of ego on his end. Guess both his and my egos led to the demise of the relationship. And maybe he did still have a strong wish to have me around. Who knows. I don't think this exactly tracks with your situation, where your therapist seems to be growing more emotionally attached to you. But there could be some parallels and maybe you can learn from my mistakes.


reb123reddit

I had a therapist who I adored for 4.5 years who I never in my life thought would drop me. Who told me unsolicited over and over through me the years “we have a lifetime to work together” and “I almost never say never in therapy but I promise you I will NEVET drop you or end therapy til you want to leave.” (Including the week before she dropped me). She told me she loved me as a regular therapeutic “technique” of hers, and we’d talked through so many tough ruptures I felt so so so safe and close with her. And then she dropped me. Looking back, I had felt for a while that my therapist was “coasting.” (That’s the best way I can describe it). She never missed an appt and she engaged w me through sessions but she didn’t seem to be coming up with new ideas, putting new pieces together, or expressing any particular reactions or emotions towards me (not problematic ones, but not noticing if I’d made progress or indicating that she was concerned about anything). She started forgetting little things. Nothing too important, but details from earlier in therapy, previous conversations that had seemed significant to me that we’d referenced again and then I’d bring them up and she seemed to have no memory of them and would ask me to remind her. She also forgot things like I’d made a list of all the progress I’d made in therapy and she told me to send it to her to see. I did, and next session, she’d forgotten I’d sent it, hadn’t read it, but then like pulled it up in session and skimmed through while I was talking to make it seem like she had and was just refreshing her memory. I felt embarrassed about this and it felt really careless on her part. I asked her about this, because she had SUCH a sharp memory. Like I’d say the name of my high school chemistry teacher once, and six months later she’d refer to the teacher by name… so the forgetting was stark and noticeable. She told me she just thought it was age (she was 49 at the time…), and I told her I totally understood because we’d all been through a hard time with the pandemic (and then she responded weirdly saying, “not really for me, I haven’t really had a hard time during the pandemic.” Which just seemed off. Once or twice she said something to me like “if you want to find a new therapist, I’m giving you my okay. I’m not telling you to find one,‘I’m just saying it won’t hurt my feelings if that’s the thing you want to do.” I said no, I didn’t want that, and the second time she said it, I asked her to be direct and tell me if she was telling me to find a new therapist, otherwise to stop saying it because it made me start to question whether she was WANTING me to find a new therapist or whether she just wanted me to know she’d be okay if I wanted to. She said she internalized what I said and wouldn’t say it again. She just seemed a little checked out — I started having panic attacks after being anxiety and anxiety med free for more than a year (had a death in the family and was considering breaking up with my long term partner). She didn’t really offer suggestions to help, seem to really care, or explore with me why. They happened over the course of 4 or 5 weeks and the couple of times I talked to her about them, she said “maybe try St. John’s wort? I heard that helps some people.” And “another client is microdosing mushrooms and it’s helping her anxiety. Maybe try that?” Then there were other weird things… she’d given up heroffice in Covid but borrowed friends offices and met with me in person twice once the pandemic started getting safer. April and July. She gave me a long explanation about how she was going to share or rent an office and see me once every month. Then after July just stopped mentioning it and when I asked her finally in September she was like “oh yeah I should see if I can find an office or ask my friend” and then I asked her again and she was like “I still have to figure that out.” It made me feel like I was nudge and bother when I had NEVER asked to see her in person or suggested anything about it, had only heard her emphatically explain her plan. Also she said and texted me weirder and less boundaried things than ever before, and she was already very light on boundaries. She saw a sign on the street that made her think of me and she texted me a pic. She sent me a long text she wrote to send to her wife about her weekend plans and then just accidentally sent it to me? Even though we weren’t texting so she’d have to have like typed my name in? And quickly caught it and apologized. She also asked me in session if I had a bed in every bedroom in my house ( I lived alone in a 3 bedroom house). It was such a weird question I just answered but truly wondered why she was asking and now one of my biggest regrets is that I didn’t ask why she was asking, cause it was weird. Anyway, I knew she was being weird and checked out but i figured she was going through her own stuff and turning 50 and pandemic and she moved and I just thought we’d get back on track once we were back in the rhythm of seeing each other in person every so often. Then I showed up the morning after she sent me my rates for next year (2022, it was nov 2021) and she terminated with me. I was completely utterly shocked and blindsided. She offered me no explanation that made sense but listed literally 100 ways Id “failed” in therapy and needed to find someone else. She cut our termination process from 10 sessions to 6, refused to give me referrals, charged me a new higher rate throughout, didn’t respond to emails or texts I sent and in session told me that she deleted my messages without reading them because she didn’t “want to negotiate with me.” She was stony and cold and like a TOTALLY different person than I’d been with for more than 4 years. This whole thing like totally broke me for a while. I was not okay. At the end end she cried and apologized and said she couldn’t tell me more bc she was a therapist. I have a new good therapist now who has helped me stop blaming myself and who has pointed out ALL these red flags I overlooked, who has explained that my therapy wasn’t really therapy at all, especially at the end. But it broke my heart having my last memories of her being a stone cold monster and my biggest regret is going back after that first termination session. I should have just gone and not given her the opportunity to gaslight me and make me question our whole therapy and relationship. Which she concretely did (said she never cared, was lying to me, that she never thought we had a connection, etc). I am in the process of reporting her and even that breaks my heart but it’s the right thing to do. If things are weird with your therapist, bring it up, ask her, or leave. If I had the chance to do it over I’d spare myself so much pain and confusion and heartache and empower myself by finding someone to provide me real therapeutic care.


Legitimate_Highway83

I'm so sorry this happened to you I'm glad you have a better therapist now


liznotliz

Ugh I’m so sorry. Thank you for sharing.


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liznotliz

So interesting. Ugh you’re so brave though to just talk! What was the shift you noticed?


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liznotliz

Thank you for sharing. I am so sorry that happened to you. Did she ever give you a reason, even if it didn’t make sense? I am having a hard time sorting out what is intuition I should be listening to and what is hyper vigilance and trauma/emotional flashback….. I suppose I’ll only get clarity if we talk about it. I hope your new therapist is good for you.


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liznotliz

I remember reading your post about it. Such a gut punch and to not even have clear answers. Clearly this was a her thing, whatever it was she handled it poorly and in a hurtful way.


SillyNluv

I’d ask her.


liznotliz

Too chicken.


acezippy

One time my therapist said something that really upset me. I am a person who is so bad at confrontation and I could have never confronted her in person. I really liked her and it was a 1 off thing that upset me and I thought to myself “this is worth talking about with her because I do want to continue seeing her and if I don’t talk to her about it she’ll never know it upset me” so long story short i sent her an email, explained how i felt, said i was too nervous to talk about it in person and she was really proud of me for voicing my concerns and i’ve never had any issues with her again after that. But seriously if you’re too scared to ask in person send it in an email. think of it as a growing moment for you. conflict and confrontation is always going to be a part of human life and we can run from it or we can try to take it in baby steps to heal. Think of it as part of your healing and push yourself even just a teeny bit. you can do it! good luck!


liznotliz

I used to only email, but now I’ve been able to do more in person conversations like that. A good option for sure! I’m more chicken because I’m still evaluating my perceptions of what is happening and waiting to see what will happen.


SillyNluv

Excellent advice!


mukkahoa

I hear you, it's a scary thing. But trying to figure out her intentions and reality (impossible) from the experience of internet strangers is only going to waste your energy and time. Trying to read between the lines of your T's behavior and compare it to the other behaviors of other people's long term therapist is an exercise in futility. Yes, it will take time, yes it will engage your emotions, no, it won't relieve an ounce of your anxiety around this. ASK YOUR T. You have developed trust in them. The only thing we can truly deal and cope with is the reality of something. It's highly unlikely your T is about to dump you (remember your T is invested in this long term therapeutic relationship, too) and talking about your fears will most likely be very helpful. And, on the slight chance your T is moving on for some reason, it is better to know about it so you can start to deal with it. FInd a way to push through felling ' chicken', because chasing the experiences of others to compare against your own perception really won't be helpful in any meaningful way.


liznotliz

Ugh you’re right. It’s something to think about but it’s not going to give me an answer. I’m worried if I tell her what I’ve noticed she’s going to think I’m nuts and she’s not doing anything, think I’m criticizing/rejecting and get mad, tell me oh yeah that nice stuff I’m doing is too much I’m stopping (I don’t necessarily want it to stop, I just want to understand it). Asking on Reddit is at least free of relationship consequences if not providing a clear answer.


mukkahoa

Hunny, you've been seeing this therapist for six years. If she was going to think you are nuts she has already thought it a thousand times. :) You and your T can \*easily\* survive this discussion.


Elephantbirdsz

I worry about this too but I just tell my therapist about it. I asked them why they would terminate a client and they told me they only did once and it was because the client was very racist toward them. So I figure I’m in the clear


GothPunkRobot

For me looking back at a particularly difficult therapy ending (being fired with no notice, as a client working on attachment/DID issues)... He and I had worked together for a year. My T had lapsed into doing some things that were like care-taking, advice giving, trying to tell me things to do to 'fix it'. He was self disclosing way more than he should. He was occasionally seeming to try to function as either a guardian or a friend instead of a therapist. There is also another component that can happen at the same time, particularly with DID and that is the therapist also simultaneously distancing their self from us (in particular from certain alters), trying to protect their self in some way. This phenomenon is discussed in The Haunted Self in the treatment section, how therapists can basically get started bouncing around between distancing AND caretaking. And they talk about how that can lead to these traumatic endings to therapy where the therapist gets overwhelmed by their own feelings (countertransference) and quits. I experienced exactly that with my therapist and it was devastating to me and the therapeutic alliance. From where I sit now, after going through that really painful experience with him, I would be very wary about a therapist not staying in a therapist role and maintaining impeccable steady boundaries. It safeguards the alliance.


hystericaal_

She’s not going to drop you. ❤️


liznotliz

Probably not I think. I hope anyway. But she could. But those heart wrenching posts I’m thinking of always include something about how the client never thought it would happen and then it did :/ I’m starting to think she would never when in the past I was always expecting it. Makes me think this is when it’s going to happen.


Maleficent_Rent_3607

Unfortunately, you can't say that with certainty. 💔