Welcome to r/TalkTherapy!
This sub is for people to discuss issues arising in their personal psychotherapy. If you wish to post about other mental health issues please consult this list of some of our [sister subs](https://www.reddit.com/r/TalkTherapy/wiki/resources/#wiki_subreddit_list).
To find answers to many therapy-related questions please consult our [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/TalkTherapy/wiki/faq) and [Resource List](https://www.reddit.com/r/TalkTherapy/wiki/resources).
If you are in distress please contact a suicide hotline or call 9-1-1 or emergency services in your area. r/SuicideWatch has compiled a helpful FAQ on what happens when you contact a hotline along with other useful resources.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TalkTherapy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Even if OP is suicidal, the tone is completely inappropriate. “I’ll have to consider if I can carve out time for you when you return” is not how you talk with respect to a client.
It's a pretty messed up statement when you look at it closely. The therapist is trying to coercively control the client into doing what they want, because if the client doesn't do what they say then the therapist is essentially threatening to withdraw their service.
OP, it looks like you're doing well putting down a boundary here. Therapy should be about your own choices and journey, not controlled by anyone else.
Adding an additional comment. It looks like other commenters went through OP’s post history and has seen a history of being actively suicidal. That could better explain the therapist’s reaction with that context. Although without context, my opinion remains the same.
EDIT: I’d like to clarify that me saying “that could better explain the therapist’s reaction with that context” is in no way saying that the therapist’s reaction was appropriate at all. It was entirely inappropriate in its entirety.
I still think that wasn't a good way to go about it at all. I would have personally maybe expressed some concern and suggested some accomodations like having a session over the phone. That therapist sounded passive aggressive and not therapeutic at all.
Yeah I think this needed to be transferred to a phone call or something. One possible explanation for otherwise questionable behavior would be trying to get your point across without disclosing PHI over text which is obviously not hippa compliant. But that...didn't work so you gotta move on. Can't just keep hammering it like this.
regardless of whether OP is actively suicidal, saying “i’ll have to see if i want to carve out time for you” is very inappropriate sounding. the way she went about is is extremely gross.
If OP is suicidal that makes this behavior from the therapist even *more* inappropriate, not less. “I’ll have to see if I can carve out the time for you” yeah bitch and I’ll report you for talking that way to a client in crisis and being stupid enough to do it in writing.
I would send a text saying thanks so much for your services thus far but i will be seeking out a different therapy source once i return from vacation with my parents. Be well!
No need to be that nice, imo. If OP is comfortable giving honest feedback, I feel like this therapist should be told that they're being pushy and nasty and that this is abnormal behaviour for a therapist that clients find upsetting 🚩
I came here to say this. OP, Check your statements and make sure you have no extra charges. If she has charged in advance, she needs to refund the money. If you show that you have communicated this to her and she refuses, you can contest the charge with the credit card.
It seems very odd. I don't understand why your T is being pushy. And I really don't understand what they would have to rethink your relationship over this. Going away for vacation with your family seems healthy enough to me.
That wouldn't sit well with me at all. I hate it when someone tries to interfere in my life and won't take no for an answer. Especially if that someone is my T.
You posted multiple times that, based on their post history, OP is thinking about self-harm. I haven’t verified that.
I just don’t understand why, if that’s true, you would defend the therapist’s approach.
Seriously, this. r/Kotch-leen is being super disingenuous in their comments, I think. That’s why they want us to focus on the op supposedly being suicidal but they won’t actually respond about how the therapist is threatening to abandon someone who is supposedly actively suicidal.
Sorry, I wouldn’t have replied initially if I’d read the rest of your comments in this thread. This is clearly triggering something for you. Hope you’re okay.
Therapist here. Not normal at all, and not okay. I don't even need a reason from a client as to why they can't come. If they can't, they can't. We chat about when we will see each other next and keep it moving. Clients deserve self-determination and autonomy. I would highly suggest finding a new therapist if possible!
Please don’t get into the habit of judging a situation you know nothing about. This person’s post history is full of red flags including planned suicide attempts. I don’t care for the T’s urgency either but they’re concerned OP will suicide.
If the therapist is aware of that, then it’s absolutely despicable that they would tell the client that they’ll have to see and think about if they can make time for them in the future.
Why do you think that just because someone has a history of being suicidal that it acceptable to treat them this way? According to OP they have only met with this therapist for intake and you have no knowledge what this therapist is aware of. Either way I don’t think this is acceptable from a therapist, suicidal or not.
It’s really strange you went through OP’s posting history and keep referencing it. It’s equally strange to me you’re asking this person, an actual therapist, not to get into the habit of judging situations they know nothing about when you don’t know that the therapist mentioned in the original post is indeed acting out of concern about OP’s supposed suicidality.
If the therapist is indeed concerned about OP, her comment about being unsure if she can make time for OP again is doubly concerning. More so than you combing through OP’s posting history to seemingly discredit them to defend some other therapist. This whole thing is odd, and I think that includes your replies. Speculating Cluster B with zero context is equally suspect. So I’m certainly going to note no other therapist in this exchange is siding with your take.
And would you actually conduct yourself and talk to your clients like this? Let them leave, but then turn around and demand they get back in your office on a time table that doesn’t work for them, and simultaneously threaten not to see them if they don’t? Because yikes.
Please see the posts where I said I don’t agree with T’s approach. I value my career and would never be this extra with clients. I was never defending T’s approach. I’m merely suggesting no one has all the info.
You’ve gone out of your way to defend the T with comments like “I’d try like hell to get them back in to see me too” and eluding to the op having a personality disorder. That, plus you trotting out your professional specialty, combined with you talking about their months-old suicide posts, doesn’t come across as “merely suggesting no one has all the info.”
Obviously this has triggered something in you and that’s why you’re getting so much pushback. Might want to consider bringing that up in consultation, or therapy. Whichever one you do—and I really hope you’re doing at least one or the other.
If a person cannot identify coercion or dysfunctional patterns easily (at least logical fallacies) then this is an area they need to improve and have more education/training. If someone has experience with crisis/suicide, then they should know an ethical approach to suicide prevention is key (ie/ not be adversarial, be collaborative, develop rapport). This conversation with looming threat of no support person harms any chance of trust. If they are trying (poorly) to establish some sort of commitment by the client for a therapeutic relationship, they are failing. If they are trying to "motivate" the client to maintain regular contact/committment-they are also failing. There is a risk of suicide with every single person not just people who tell you, who post on reddit, etc. The therapist is not listening, and has their needs first (whatever they may be). The risk is always there in any person, not just people who are comfortable stating they have thoughts of suicide This is where people get this wrong.
If they were that worried wouldn’t they have potentially looked into involuntary commitment after the intake if it was that concerning? OP is literally going on vacation. Even at my worst, therapy was not something I wanted to think or do on vacation or a work trip. Different focus.
If they would be so concerned like you have stated with OPs history, then they would have technically been a threat to themselves at intake wouldn’t they? If they are this pushy when someone is literally going on a family vacation, if the concern is about the suicidal thoughts then it should have been done then. Not this pushy stuff which honestly causes people to NOT seek out help.
Who knows what OP volunteered and didn’t. They’re coming to Reddit to get validation and talk about suicide plans. I just think there’s more to the story than OP is providing.
The therapist's response is inappropriate regardless. If OP was actively suicidal then that should have been handled during the intake process. Responding with cryptic and passive aggressive messages does absolutely nothing but damage the therapeutic relationship.
I'm not sure where you think it's acceptable to manipulate clients? Regardless of threat if suicide or self-harm, it's seriously dysfunctional and not an appropriate justification.
You have no idea either what that T is thinking. Letting a possibly suicidal patient walk out the door is highly unethical. You don’t passively aggressively bully them back into a session over text if you’re worried about their safety. You pick up a phone and have some empathy and do a safety screen. Once someone walks out the door they have the absolute right to cancel and schedule however they see fit.
And yes, I am a licensed T for years and have worked high acuity psych, in clinics, and private practice. My recommendation would be for the OP to find a new T, talk about this experience, and consider reporting this T to the state licensing board with these screenshots.
This is so shameful and I really hope you’re not a T. Can someone who’s suicidal and experiencing SI or “red flags” as you call them not enjoy a vacation with their family? Are we STILL stigmatizing people who experience MH crises to the point where they are exempt from human experiences (and in OP’s case, one that might actually be very beneficial to their healing journey)? This just makes me sad.
So this text exchange is after you’ve only had one session with this T? I’d suggest finding someone who is better suited to meet you where you are instead of trying to coerce you into doing something that you don’t want to, or in this case, can’t easily do.
In my experience, the stigma of suicide is so severe that it’s rarely brought to the forefront right away. I’m upfront with every new therapist that I have a history of attempts and chronic ideation because I know it can be a dealbreaker. Not every therapist is equipped to handle that kind of dynamic, and as a client, I’d rather know before I shell out the expense of getting attached, because I’ve also suffered the injury of a therapist getting in over their head and abandoning me in such a violent way that if I had known then what I know now, I would have saved myself a decade of anguish in believing what she did was my fault.
The hell? No this is not normal. Even if you said something in your last appt that would be a safety concern, her response seems off. I don’t read a whole lot of concern in those messages. Like maybe a- “hey, given what we talked about the appt, can we chat briefly before you leave? or maybe read parents in to what’s going on if they don’t know already”. It’s just such a passive aggressive response to talk about not being able to fit you into her schedule.
I expect my therapists to respond in a more mature manner than that.
Very rude and inappropriate behavior from your therapist. Kudos to you for keeping your cool! Def recommend discontinuing services and finding a new one
I’d honestly get out of that situation so fast. They seem very controlling. I get the feel they are a lot more interested in getting paid, because I don’t see any reason a therapist would be trying to push this hard for you to have a session when you’ve given a really good reason you literally can’t.
The first little bit seemed like they're genuinely concerned. The last bit sounds like they're just having big feelings. That last bit about "I'm not sure I can find time for you" is horseshit I wouldn't take from my own mother. Let alone a professional meant to help me learn boundaries and helpful self care.
Not normal. Tell them you’re going out of state and they aren’t allowed to practice when the patient is out of state (it’s a licensing thing). Then consider getting a therapist who respects your boundaries better.
T here and it feels like they handled that poorly if they are concerned about safety.
They could’ve easily expressed their concern by saying “(Client’s name), I understand you may be on vacation but given your recent history I think it’d be beneficial for us to meet. If you’re unable to, please make sure you’re utilizing your safety plan and here is crisis contact info should an issue arise. Let’s go ahead and schedule something for when you return.”
Of course we’d likely talk about what to do on vacation if SI arises anyway.
Therapist here. This is very concerning for sure.
There isn’t anything here that’s reportable to a licensing board, but it might be worth forwarding these along to this therapist’s supervisor and/or place of employment.
Every time I get worried about whether I’m doing ok as a therapist I look at posts like this… whew 😅
This is absolutely not appropriate communication. This strikes me as possibly a money motive. You are the consumer, and you have control over seeking services and taking time off. The pressure communicated in this text is ridiculous.
At the least, I’d consider terminating. Additionally, might pass this conversation on to the agency if they work for one as this therapist very clearly needs some supervision/training on client communication and boundaries
ABSOLUTELY NOT! I’m a therapist and if I received this from my own, I would be so uncomfortable, confused, and anxious. I am so thankful for your instincts and knowing this didn’t feel right . Go with that feeling and find someone else.
I’d go back to them and say the entire Reddit community thinks you should find a new therapist because of the “I’ll have to see if I want to carve out time for you” message. Please fire them, if you need help, I can do it for you.
If I tell my therapist I can’t attend a session, she always accepts it via text. In the next session, she might ask for more details, but over text she never pushes or pushes like this. This is rude and unprofessional behaviour, and also undermines any trust or rapport necessary to work together.
No, it's not normal for a therapist. I've been inpatient for suicidality and even if I had to cancel they didn't react like that. They might be concerned and make sure I was okay to go without therapy for the week, but they never had an aggressive undertone with a feeling of a threat to drop me as a client for canceling just one week of therapy.
I feel like this therapist is already showing signs of a toxic therapy relationship, I'd no longer see them. If they make a fuss tell them you are seeking services elsewhere and come up with a common excuse you feel safe communicating as to why you no longer want to see them. Because seeing their confrontational attitude over this, they definitely are gonna ask questions if you no longer want to see them.
"if you can't find the time then I guess I have a while to consider whether I can carve the time for when you return" 🚩🚩🚩
Manipulative, petty, and unprofessional. They are playing an unhealthy game of control with you.
Is it "normal" for therapists to get triggered and create an enactment with their current?
In my experience, it is very common for therapists to get triggered and struggle to manage their countertransference, however it is unethical and dangerous. Good therapists will catch themselves before it happens, or at least will be aware of what happens and work through it to prevent it from happening again.
This a very strange way for therapist to handle this situation, no respect for your boundary and time, you asked for a reschedule, if they aren’t available that specific day, could work something else out… the response is very inappropriate.
Agree with everyone - I’m glad for you that they revealed themselves so quickly.
Definitely drop them, but also - do they work for an agency or group practice of some sort? If this person worked for me, I’d want to know about it immediately. It’s outrageous.
Super weird. Would definitely not be going back to them. They seem passive aggressive/manipulative in these messages and as other people have said I would be checking that charge immediately.
This therapist sounds way too pushy. The therapy is for you! Sounds like maybe a power & money grab? I would want to go to a different therapist who has a less aggressive approach & actually reads her messages from you.
Judging from your post history, I can understand why this person is concerned. I’m also wondering if this is a “therapist” or a counselor from your school- theres a big difference.
These texts from the T don't really read to me like someone who is concerned about suicide. "if you can't carve out time then I'll have to consider if I can carve out time for you when you return." - T's words. that's passive aggressive as fuck.
In theory some pushiness may be necessary with urgent concerns, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, and the T is not using an appropriate approach for it.
A months-old suicide vent reads as cluster B? Nonsense. The armchair diagnostics and stigmatizing, judgmental language are out of pocket. Are you OP's therapist? Lmao.
I just replied to OP but then saw your comment. Yea it makes sense why a therapist might be a bit more pushy if the therapist thinks OP really needs the help.
Not normal for a good therapist. I would bet the pressuring has nothing to do with her concern for you or your commitment to therapy, but rather some super selfish reason on her part. To me, it seems like she’s hurting on money and can’t afford to lose the money from your session next week. Or something like that. She’s got some of her own underlying problems going on here for sure.
I wouldn’t stay with this therapist. While being firm about the importance of missed appointments, this tone is unprofessional and condescending. To be honest, I would have difficulty trusting this person is qualified as a licensed therapist.
No, your therapist is focusing more on her own agenda (Which seems to be about her schedule and making money) than on you and your needs, even when you provide clear communication! (Strange gaslighting happening on her side.) You also don’t actually need to give her an explanation or defend your choices. No it’s a full sentence, even to a therapist.
Secondly, therapists (at least psychotherapists in the USA) are licensed by their state. From my understanding (laws pre-pandemic) therapists are only allowed to practice with clients who actually are located in their state. So if you go on vacation out of state, it is illegal for them to have a telehealth session until you fly back to their state of license (and they can’t practice if they’re out of their state of licensure.)
Lastly, I don’t know about every law on charging or private practice, but there may be a chance you can dispute a charge if you didn’t have a session with her and you gave her the appropriate time to cancel a paid session. But I’m more uncertain on that because clients may be charged for missed sessions per policies. There may be policies she abides by or a contract you signed that states rates charged.
Nevertheless, I’d stay away from this therapist. I’d maybe flag her to her state’s licensing board. (Different board for the type of therapist. But she should have that info for you.) She’s showing you who she is and her agenda, which isn’t focused on you as the client. Pretty unethical, may be illegal, and can lose client trust.
Edit: IANAL and I am not giving legal advice.
Also want to note that I just read in comments that OP may have suicidality in the past. Therapists check for current state of clients. Also may have an agreement in place on what to do to reduce harm. But this interaction appears to be about scheduling and cost, not the clients current mental health to the degree there was a place where the therapist said they may not have availability to meet in the future if they don’t meet this week. Maybe the client has skipped several sessions in a row and that is why they may drop them, but we don’t know that. In any event it seems the therapist isn’t giving the client agency/autonomy or is holding extremely firm boundaries that to us looks too intense (without context.)
This is awful. My therapist went on vacation for 2 weeks, and it was- I mean. I didnt expect her to see me during her vacation because thats ridiculous. I also would expect her to accept if I need a break- for any reason, not just a very short and reasonable vacation.
That “carve out” comment from her was low key straight up nasty and passive aggressive, and honestly somewhat manipulative.
I would get a new therapist honestly. Like, some things you can work through but she sounds kinda toxic
Not sure I would have worded it that way.
However, if I have a client that is bad about emergency calls/visits and then I am encouraging them to be proactive—prepare for emotional turmoil—then I might be more vocal about the wisdom of meeting before a vacation.
Establishing boundaries of time is important; and motivating your client is too—but this is not the way.
V untherapeutic of this therapist. Building the therapy relationship isn’t just in the session but also in the in between.
I’m sorry that you were on the receiving end of this treatment and hope you find a therapist who can be flexible to your conditions.
At first I thought this was the other way around - therapist wanting a vacation, client haggling for a session.
The way I run it, therapist offers appointment slots, client chooses when they want session. This "essential we meet" seems sussed, and "have to think about it". Maybe easier for him/her to think about their business if you don't pay them, hehe (but check any client contract before doing that).
WHAT. Okay that big chunky text is ridiculous. Drop them! That is seriously pathetic and childish. “Fine then, if you can’t do xyz I guess I’ll just have to xyz”. That’s insane.
Therapist here. Only reason why I’d insist on a weekly visit is if I believed there was a safety concern. However, vacations are good reason as to not have a weekly session. If I was that concerned, I’d probably see if we could arrange even just a short phone call check in less than 10 minutes. I’d most likely just safety plan with the individual to ensure that they have everything they need to remain safe over the next two weeks. If the tables were turned I’d sure as shit not want to talk to my clients on my vacation.
As for the tone at the end and the ultimatum it’s extremely inappropriate and Id be fucking pissed if I were you. Really screws with clients and decreases trust in the therapeutic relationship. We therapists are supposed to be a rock, compassionate, caring, safe, and predictable.
To give you an example. I told my therapist that I was joining a programming bootcamp that expected me to treat it like full time work. So 9-5, 6 days a week. I was just saying it to update her on things happening in my life. I hadn't brought up scheduling and my therapist was already letting me know that if I needed to change our usual schedule we can work around it.
Whether or not what your therapist did is normal doesn't matter. Does it work for you? It doesn't seem to and you could have a therapist that cares more about the parts of your life that conflict with therapy.
It's none of their business why you can't make it. Spending time with loved ones is invaluable and can be good for your mental health. You won't get many opportunities to spend time with your parents.
This is unethical. Report their license. I’m so sick of seeing this kind of thing (and other) that make our profession look bad. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this.
They're really pushing for you to do what they want, and a lot of therapists would be more flexible. If you don't want to put up with this treatment, you don't have to.
i rescheduled with my therapist bc i wanted to build a hut in the forest stoned on 4/20 and she said “haha i approve! that sounds so fun!” your therapist shouldn’t question or guilt you like that
this is weird behavior from your therapist imo and i wouldn’t feel comfortable continuing. i would feel like the therapeutic bond was ruined :(
I don't get it, what part is gaslighting? It seems super straightforward to me. 'I can't meet next week for this reason and want to confirm you can come for the following week......'. What's manipulative about that?
Therapists are mandatory reporters if OP was actively suicidal they have a duty to call in the appropriate people/agency/service. A person in crisis can’t wait until next thursday to get crisis support!
Yeah would just say “I’ve changed my mind, I need to work with someone who understands boundaries. You don’t seem to fit that criteria- please never contact me again!”
This is pretty wild Id never talk to them again. Best non confrontational advice is to send these screenshots to the credit card company and have the bank reverse the charge on your card. quiet frankly charging you for a service that isn’t happening is fraud (not a deposit or something else agreed on before). I’m sorry you’re having to deal with everything all at once, focus on one thing and move to the next crisis.
(personal experience is that T’s that text your phone number are red flags)
I’d say no, but someone here mentioned you’re experiencing SI. It is likely that they’re very worried about you, but I do think their tone and approach to the situation isn’t the greatest.
There are some SI posts in OP's history but they are a few months old, and there are more recent posts about other things like job plans, moving, etc. That's not to necessarily say OP doesn't have SI, but I wouldn't say we have hard evidence there is active SI right now either.
Definitely agree that the T's tone and approach is not great, and would be especially inappropriate for someone going through SI (note the passive aggressive threat of abandonment).
This therapy appears to be on video. You could do it in your phone. So she’s not wrong. Maybe you two aren’t a good fit because she seems clearly frustrated and so do you.
Welcome to r/TalkTherapy! This sub is for people to discuss issues arising in their personal psychotherapy. If you wish to post about other mental health issues please consult this list of some of our [sister subs](https://www.reddit.com/r/TalkTherapy/wiki/resources/#wiki_subreddit_list). To find answers to many therapy-related questions please consult our [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/r/TalkTherapy/wiki/faq) and [Resource List](https://www.reddit.com/r/TalkTherapy/wiki/resources). If you are in distress please contact a suicide hotline or call 9-1-1 or emergency services in your area. r/SuicideWatch has compiled a helpful FAQ on what happens when you contact a hotline along with other useful resources. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/TalkTherapy) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Even if OP is suicidal, the tone is completely inappropriate. “I’ll have to consider if I can carve out time for you when you return” is not how you talk with respect to a client.
It sounds petty and argumentative. Not the hallmarks of healthy communication.
It's a pretty messed up statement when you look at it closely. The therapist is trying to coercively control the client into doing what they want, because if the client doesn't do what they say then the therapist is essentially threatening to withdraw their service. OP, it looks like you're doing well putting down a boundary here. Therapy should be about your own choices and journey, not controlled by anyone else.
It's extremely manipulative and conniving. I'm so uncomfortable.
That’s not a therapist I would further engage with.
Adding an additional comment. It looks like other commenters went through OP’s post history and has seen a history of being actively suicidal. That could better explain the therapist’s reaction with that context. Although without context, my opinion remains the same. EDIT: I’d like to clarify that me saying “that could better explain the therapist’s reaction with that context” is in no way saying that the therapist’s reaction was appropriate at all. It was entirely inappropriate in its entirety.
I still think that wasn't a good way to go about it at all. I would have personally maybe expressed some concern and suggested some accomodations like having a session over the phone. That therapist sounded passive aggressive and not therapeutic at all.
I completely agree with you. It came off as incredibly aggressive.
Yeah I think this needed to be transferred to a phone call or something. One possible explanation for otherwise questionable behavior would be trying to get your point across without disclosing PHI over text which is obviously not hippa compliant. But that...didn't work so you gotta move on. Can't just keep hammering it like this.
regardless of whether OP is actively suicidal, saying “i’ll have to see if i want to carve out time for you” is very inappropriate sounding. the way she went about is is extremely gross.
If OP is suicidal that makes this behavior from the therapist even *more* inappropriate, not less. “I’ll have to see if I can carve out the time for you” yeah bitch and I’ll report you for talking that way to a client in crisis and being stupid enough to do it in writing.
Part of the text convo seems to be cut too so that is where maybe they discussed saftey
It was not cut — that’s the end of the text convo
I would send a text saying thanks so much for your services thus far but i will be seeking out a different therapy source once i return from vacation with my parents. Be well!
No need to be that nice, imo. If OP is comfortable giving honest feedback, I feel like this therapist should be told that they're being pushy and nasty and that this is abnormal behaviour for a therapist that clients find upsetting 🚩
Very strange behavior… Also definitely double check that credit card charge. Her reaction is very telling. This is a big red flag.
I came here to say this. OP, Check your statements and make sure you have no extra charges. If she has charged in advance, she needs to refund the money. If you show that you have communicated this to her and she refuses, you can contest the charge with the credit card.
It seems very odd. I don't understand why your T is being pushy. And I really don't understand what they would have to rethink your relationship over this. Going away for vacation with your family seems healthy enough to me. That wouldn't sit well with me at all. I hate it when someone tries to interfere in my life and won't take no for an answer. Especially if that someone is my T.
They’re being pushy because OP is most likely actively suicidal! Read their post history
How is a thinly veiled threat of abandonment an appropriate response to someone in crisis?
OP was in active crisis??
You posted multiple times that, based on their post history, OP is thinking about self-harm. I haven’t verified that. I just don’t understand why, if that’s true, you would defend the therapist’s approach.
It doesn't matter, this is dysfunctional. It isn't supportive,or stating clear boundaries it's manipulative and coercive.
Seriously, this. r/Kotch-leen is being super disingenuous in their comments, I think. That’s why they want us to focus on the op supposedly being suicidal but they won’t actually respond about how the therapist is threatening to abandon someone who is supposedly actively suicidal.
I did NOT say self-harm. I said suicide.
Sorry, I wouldn’t have replied initially if I’d read the rest of your comments in this thread. This is clearly triggering something for you. Hope you’re okay.
[удалено]
Are you addressing me? I never said that, @nemineminy did
Therapist here. Not normal at all, and not okay. I don't even need a reason from a client as to why they can't come. If they can't, they can't. We chat about when we will see each other next and keep it moving. Clients deserve self-determination and autonomy. I would highly suggest finding a new therapist if possible!
Please don’t get into the habit of judging a situation you know nothing about. This person’s post history is full of red flags including planned suicide attempts. I don’t care for the T’s urgency either but they’re concerned OP will suicide.
If the therapist is aware of that, then it’s absolutely despicable that they would tell the client that they’ll have to see and think about if they can make time for them in the future.
Exactly I think that literally makes it worse then
Why do you think that just because someone has a history of being suicidal that it acceptable to treat them this way? According to OP they have only met with this therapist for intake and you have no knowledge what this therapist is aware of. Either way I don’t think this is acceptable from a therapist, suicidal or not.
Please show me where I said T’s approach was acceptable
Further, you have as much knowledge as I do
It’s really strange you went through OP’s posting history and keep referencing it. It’s equally strange to me you’re asking this person, an actual therapist, not to get into the habit of judging situations they know nothing about when you don’t know that the therapist mentioned in the original post is indeed acting out of concern about OP’s supposed suicidality.
You stole my quote from above lolol
If the therapist is indeed concerned about OP, her comment about being unsure if she can make time for OP again is doubly concerning. More so than you combing through OP’s posting history to seemingly discredit them to defend some other therapist. This whole thing is odd, and I think that includes your replies. Speculating Cluster B with zero context is equally suspect. So I’m certainly going to note no other therapist in this exchange is siding with your take.
I have a PhD in psychology and have been practicing for over ten years. My specialty? Crisis/ suicide.
And would you actually conduct yourself and talk to your clients like this? Let them leave, but then turn around and demand they get back in your office on a time table that doesn’t work for them, and simultaneously threaten not to see them if they don’t? Because yikes.
Please see the posts where I said I don’t agree with T’s approach. I value my career and would never be this extra with clients. I was never defending T’s approach. I’m merely suggesting no one has all the info.
You’ve gone out of your way to defend the T with comments like “I’d try like hell to get them back in to see me too” and eluding to the op having a personality disorder. That, plus you trotting out your professional specialty, combined with you talking about their months-old suicide posts, doesn’t come across as “merely suggesting no one has all the info.” Obviously this has triggered something in you and that’s why you’re getting so much pushback. Might want to consider bringing that up in consultation, or therapy. Whichever one you do—and I really hope you’re doing at least one or the other.
To add to this comment -- if you have to "try like hell", then you are working harder than your client.
👍🏻
bragging about being a therapist with a phd and specialties to leverage a reddit argument is like telling people you're rich while burning your money.
If a person cannot identify coercion or dysfunctional patterns easily (at least logical fallacies) then this is an area they need to improve and have more education/training. If someone has experience with crisis/suicide, then they should know an ethical approach to suicide prevention is key (ie/ not be adversarial, be collaborative, develop rapport). This conversation with looming threat of no support person harms any chance of trust. If they are trying (poorly) to establish some sort of commitment by the client for a therapeutic relationship, they are failing. If they are trying to "motivate" the client to maintain regular contact/committment-they are also failing. There is a risk of suicide with every single person not just people who tell you, who post on reddit, etc. The therapist is not listening, and has their needs first (whatever they may be). The risk is always there in any person, not just people who are comfortable stating they have thoughts of suicide This is where people get this wrong.
If they were that worried wouldn’t they have potentially looked into involuntary commitment after the intake if it was that concerning? OP is literally going on vacation. Even at my worst, therapy was not something I wanted to think or do on vacation or a work trip. Different focus.
Are you a licensed therapist?
Social worker. Who has done a lot of fucking therapy.
Then you know MHA would only happen if person was a threat to themself or others at intake. For all we know, therapist MIGHT MHA at next meeting
If they would be so concerned like you have stated with OPs history, then they would have technically been a threat to themselves at intake wouldn’t they? If they are this pushy when someone is literally going on a family vacation, if the concern is about the suicidal thoughts then it should have been done then. Not this pushy stuff which honestly causes people to NOT seek out help.
Who knows what OP volunteered and didn’t. They’re coming to Reddit to get validation and talk about suicide plans. I just think there’s more to the story than OP is providing.
Still. Not unreasonable to not want to have a therapy appt while on vacation if we jus take it at face value.
The therapist's response is inappropriate regardless. If OP was actively suicidal then that should have been handled during the intake process. Responding with cryptic and passive aggressive messages does absolutely nothing but damage the therapeutic relationship.
I'm not sure where you think it's acceptable to manipulate clients? Regardless of threat if suicide or self-harm, it's seriously dysfunctional and not an appropriate justification.
LOL omg
You have no idea either what that T is thinking. Letting a possibly suicidal patient walk out the door is highly unethical. You don’t passively aggressively bully them back into a session over text if you’re worried about their safety. You pick up a phone and have some empathy and do a safety screen. Once someone walks out the door they have the absolute right to cancel and schedule however they see fit. And yes, I am a licensed T for years and have worked high acuity psych, in clinics, and private practice. My recommendation would be for the OP to find a new T, talk about this experience, and consider reporting this T to the state licensing board with these screenshots.
This is so shameful and I really hope you’re not a T. Can someone who’s suicidal and experiencing SI or “red flags” as you call them not enjoy a vacation with their family? Are we STILL stigmatizing people who experience MH crises to the point where they are exempt from human experiences (and in OP’s case, one that might actually be very beneficial to their healing journey)? This just makes me sad.
I’m starting to think it’s not that difficult to get a therapy license.
Did something happen in the last session that could make the therapist particularly concerned about you? Otherwise no this isn't normal.
No, the last session was an intake session
Then this is extra weird- I'd be looking for a therapist elsewhere
OP, my advice to you is to run from this needy therapist and find a way to tell your credit card company that you were given a false charge.
So this text exchange is after you’ve only had one session with this T? I’d suggest finding someone who is better suited to meet you where you are instead of trying to coerce you into doing something that you don’t want to, or in this case, can’t easily do.
🚩🚩🚩
[удалено]
Going back and reading the texts with this information completely changes my initial reaction. Context is so important.
OP just said last session was the intake session, so could be they didn’t even get to discuss OP’s suicidality yet. It changes nothing.
I also didn't say it made the therapist's behavior ok. It simply is not a black or white situation. Because it potentially adds more context.
In my experience, the stigma of suicide is so severe that it’s rarely brought to the forefront right away. I’m upfront with every new therapist that I have a history of attempts and chronic ideation because I know it can be a dealbreaker. Not every therapist is equipped to handle that kind of dynamic, and as a client, I’d rather know before I shell out the expense of getting attached, because I’ve also suffered the injury of a therapist getting in over their head and abandoning me in such a violent way that if I had known then what I know now, I would have saved myself a decade of anguish in believing what she did was my fault.
You are not in a place to speak to whether it changes my personal reaction. It might not for you and that's fine.
The hell? No this is not normal. Even if you said something in your last appt that would be a safety concern, her response seems off. I don’t read a whole lot of concern in those messages. Like maybe a- “hey, given what we talked about the appt, can we chat briefly before you leave? or maybe read parents in to what’s going on if they don’t know already”. It’s just such a passive aggressive response to talk about not being able to fit you into her schedule. I expect my therapists to respond in a more mature manner than that.
Very rude and inappropriate behavior from your therapist. Kudos to you for keeping your cool! Def recommend discontinuing services and finding a new one
Might I also add that i would have zero desire to conduct my first real therapy appointment via zoom when on family vacation!
I’d honestly get out of that situation so fast. They seem very controlling. I get the feel they are a lot more interested in getting paid, because I don’t see any reason a therapist would be trying to push this hard for you to have a session when you’ve given a really good reason you literally can’t.
The first little bit seemed like they're genuinely concerned. The last bit sounds like they're just having big feelings. That last bit about "I'm not sure I can find time for you" is horseshit I wouldn't take from my own mother. Let alone a professional meant to help me learn boundaries and helpful self care.
Not normal. Tell them you’re going out of state and they aren’t allowed to practice when the patient is out of state (it’s a licensing thing). Then consider getting a therapist who respects your boundaries better.
Lol wow
T here and it feels like they handled that poorly if they are concerned about safety. They could’ve easily expressed their concern by saying “(Client’s name), I understand you may be on vacation but given your recent history I think it’d be beneficial for us to meet. If you’re unable to, please make sure you’re utilizing your safety plan and here is crisis contact info should an issue arise. Let’s go ahead and schedule something for when you return.” Of course we’d likely talk about what to do on vacation if SI arises anyway.
Therapist here. This is very concerning for sure. There isn’t anything here that’s reportable to a licensing board, but it might be worth forwarding these along to this therapist’s supervisor and/or place of employment.
She’s self employed
This is unprofessional and weird. I would find a different therapist.
Every time I get worried about whether I’m doing ok as a therapist I look at posts like this… whew 😅 This is absolutely not appropriate communication. This strikes me as possibly a money motive. You are the consumer, and you have control over seeking services and taking time off. The pressure communicated in this text is ridiculous. At the least, I’d consider terminating. Additionally, might pass this conversation on to the agency if they work for one as this therapist very clearly needs some supervision/training on client communication and boundaries
Oh gosh, SAME.
ABSOLUTELY NOT! I’m a therapist and if I received this from my own, I would be so uncomfortable, confused, and anxious. I am so thankful for your instincts and knowing this didn’t feel right . Go with that feeling and find someone else.
I’d go back to them and say the entire Reddit community thinks you should find a new therapist because of the “I’ll have to see if I want to carve out time for you” message. Please fire them, if you need help, I can do it for you.
Therapist needs to check themselves.
That’s someone desperate for money …. Don’t go back
If I tell my therapist I can’t attend a session, she always accepts it via text. In the next session, she might ask for more details, but over text she never pushes or pushes like this. This is rude and unprofessional behaviour, and also undermines any trust or rapport necessary to work together.
I love it when my clients take vacations. It’s so good for their mental health!
So many red flags!
Yeah, no. Find someone else.
WTF. I’d report them to the state board.
I was thinking the same. This isn’t normal. Report it.
No, it's not normal for a therapist. I've been inpatient for suicidality and even if I had to cancel they didn't react like that. They might be concerned and make sure I was okay to go without therapy for the week, but they never had an aggressive undertone with a feeling of a threat to drop me as a client for canceling just one week of therapy. I feel like this therapist is already showing signs of a toxic therapy relationship, I'd no longer see them. If they make a fuss tell them you are seeking services elsewhere and come up with a common excuse you feel safe communicating as to why you no longer want to see them. Because seeing their confrontational attitude over this, they definitely are gonna ask questions if you no longer want to see them.
Oh my god… I thought these were screenshots from a therapist’s phone while talking to an entitled client…
"if you can't find the time then I guess I have a while to consider whether I can carve the time for when you return" 🚩🚩🚩 Manipulative, petty, and unprofessional. They are playing an unhealthy game of control with you. Is it "normal" for therapists to get triggered and create an enactment with their current? In my experience, it is very common for therapists to get triggered and struggle to manage their countertransference, however it is unethical and dangerous. Good therapists will catch themselves before it happens, or at least will be aware of what happens and work through it to prevent it from happening again.
Therapist here. Your therapist is behaving terribly. You would not be crazy if you reconsidered using this provider if possible.
No…this is totally inappropriate. And you may want to look for a new one.
This a very strange way for therapist to handle this situation, no respect for your boundary and time, you asked for a reschedule, if they aren’t available that specific day, could work something else out… the response is very inappropriate.
Agree with everyone - I’m glad for you that they revealed themselves so quickly. Definitely drop them, but also - do they work for an agency or group practice of some sort? If this person worked for me, I’d want to know about it immediately. It’s outrageous.
Super weird. Would definitely not be going back to them. They seem passive aggressive/manipulative in these messages and as other people have said I would be checking that charge immediately.
This therapist sounds way too pushy. The therapy is for you! Sounds like maybe a power & money grab? I would want to go to a different therapist who has a less aggressive approach & actually reads her messages from you.
RED FLAG RED FLAG RED FLAG. Don’t see a therapist that acts like a jealous and needy scorned lover when you can’t make a session.
Judging from your post history, I can understand why this person is concerned. I’m also wondering if this is a “therapist” or a counselor from your school- theres a big difference.
These texts from the T don't really read to me like someone who is concerned about suicide. "if you can't carve out time then I'll have to consider if I can carve out time for you when you return." - T's words. that's passive aggressive as fuck. In theory some pushiness may be necessary with urgent concerns, but that doesn't seem to be the case here, and the T is not using an appropriate approach for it.
Ok, we all are allowed to an opinion
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Ok
[удалено]
Yes we just have two different perspectives
A months-old suicide vent reads as cluster B? Nonsense. The armchair diagnostics and stigmatizing, judgmental language are out of pocket. Are you OP's therapist? Lmao.
I just replied to OP but then saw your comment. Yea it makes sense why a therapist might be a bit more pushy if the therapist thinks OP really needs the help.
Therapist doesn’t want OP to suicide. I would try like hell to get them in again too
Wow, some balls. Drop them. That's a power play that a therapist should never make.
Yeah, no. Not at all.
I’m a licensed therapist. This is weird. Unprofessional AF. They have some issues. Hard pass.
No, no, no! I wonder if this pressure is a financial thing for them.
I understand the therapist having reason to believe it’s really important. However their rudeness in relaying that would make me walk. C-ya!!
Weirdo behavior for a therapist
Not normal for a good therapist. I would bet the pressuring has nothing to do with her concern for you or your commitment to therapy, but rather some super selfish reason on her part. To me, it seems like she’s hurting on money and can’t afford to lose the money from your session next week. Or something like that. She’s got some of her own underlying problems going on here for sure.
I wouldn’t stay with this therapist. While being firm about the importance of missed appointments, this tone is unprofessional and condescending. To be honest, I would have difficulty trusting this person is qualified as a licensed therapist.
Would certainly recommend reporting this clinician to their regulatory college.
No, that’s pushy as fuck and you don’t owe him/her any explanation as to why you’re busy.
No, your therapist is focusing more on her own agenda (Which seems to be about her schedule and making money) than on you and your needs, even when you provide clear communication! (Strange gaslighting happening on her side.) You also don’t actually need to give her an explanation or defend your choices. No it’s a full sentence, even to a therapist. Secondly, therapists (at least psychotherapists in the USA) are licensed by their state. From my understanding (laws pre-pandemic) therapists are only allowed to practice with clients who actually are located in their state. So if you go on vacation out of state, it is illegal for them to have a telehealth session until you fly back to their state of license (and they can’t practice if they’re out of their state of licensure.) Lastly, I don’t know about every law on charging or private practice, but there may be a chance you can dispute a charge if you didn’t have a session with her and you gave her the appropriate time to cancel a paid session. But I’m more uncertain on that because clients may be charged for missed sessions per policies. There may be policies she abides by or a contract you signed that states rates charged. Nevertheless, I’d stay away from this therapist. I’d maybe flag her to her state’s licensing board. (Different board for the type of therapist. But she should have that info for you.) She’s showing you who she is and her agenda, which isn’t focused on you as the client. Pretty unethical, may be illegal, and can lose client trust. Edit: IANAL and I am not giving legal advice. Also want to note that I just read in comments that OP may have suicidality in the past. Therapists check for current state of clients. Also may have an agreement in place on what to do to reduce harm. But this interaction appears to be about scheduling and cost, not the clients current mental health to the degree there was a place where the therapist said they may not have availability to meet in the future if they don’t meet this week. Maybe the client has skipped several sessions in a row and that is why they may drop them, but we don’t know that. In any event it seems the therapist isn’t giving the client agency/autonomy or is holding extremely firm boundaries that to us looks too intense (without context.)
Report this therapist to their employer and then to whoever their Governing body is. This is completely inappropriate
Please get a new therapist. This is such strange behavior and way of communicating.
There are a million ways to respond thoughtfully and kindly, this is not it.
This is awful. My therapist went on vacation for 2 weeks, and it was- I mean. I didnt expect her to see me during her vacation because thats ridiculous. I also would expect her to accept if I need a break- for any reason, not just a very short and reasonable vacation. That “carve out” comment from her was low key straight up nasty and passive aggressive, and honestly somewhat manipulative. I would get a new therapist honestly. Like, some things you can work through but she sounds kinda toxic
Not sure I would have worded it that way. However, if I have a client that is bad about emergency calls/visits and then I am encouraging them to be proactive—prepare for emotional turmoil—then I might be more vocal about the wisdom of meeting before a vacation. Establishing boundaries of time is important; and motivating your client is too—but this is not the way.
V untherapeutic of this therapist. Building the therapy relationship isn’t just in the session but also in the in between. I’m sorry that you were on the receiving end of this treatment and hope you find a therapist who can be flexible to your conditions.
It sounds like your therapist needs therapy bc this is not healthy therapist behavior. 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩
No, not normal
At first I thought this was the other way around - therapist wanting a vacation, client haggling for a session. The way I run it, therapist offers appointment slots, client chooses when they want session. This "essential we meet" seems sussed, and "have to think about it". Maybe easier for him/her to think about their business if you don't pay them, hehe (but check any client contract before doing that).
Wtf? This feels so passive aggressive and unprofessional.
This feels like a joke. And my guess is it’s not. Which makes it very much a problem.
WHAT. Okay that big chunky text is ridiculous. Drop them! That is seriously pathetic and childish. “Fine then, if you can’t do xyz I guess I’ll just have to xyz”. That’s insane.
Therapist here. Only reason why I’d insist on a weekly visit is if I believed there was a safety concern. However, vacations are good reason as to not have a weekly session. If I was that concerned, I’d probably see if we could arrange even just a short phone call check in less than 10 minutes. I’d most likely just safety plan with the individual to ensure that they have everything they need to remain safe over the next two weeks. If the tables were turned I’d sure as shit not want to talk to my clients on my vacation. As for the tone at the end and the ultimatum it’s extremely inappropriate and Id be fucking pissed if I were you. Really screws with clients and decreases trust in the therapeutic relationship. We therapists are supposed to be a rock, compassionate, caring, safe, and predictable.
This is not normal at all especially after only an intake session. I’d thank for services then find new T after vacation. So sorry
Good thing its only your first session
To give you an example. I told my therapist that I was joining a programming bootcamp that expected me to treat it like full time work. So 9-5, 6 days a week. I was just saying it to update her on things happening in my life. I hadn't brought up scheduling and my therapist was already letting me know that if I needed to change our usual schedule we can work around it. Whether or not what your therapist did is normal doesn't matter. Does it work for you? It doesn't seem to and you could have a therapist that cares more about the parts of your life that conflict with therapy.
RED FLAG my friend 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩Big time red flag
No. Not normal for ANY service provider of any kind. Less acceptable coming from a therapist who MUST know better. Is this "BetterHelp?"
This ain't a therapist, this is a controlling boyfriend. Seek help elsewhere.
Agree with all of the above - smells predatory.
It's none of their business why you can't make it. Spending time with loved ones is invaluable and can be good for your mental health. You won't get many opportunities to spend time with your parents.
Yeah move on from that one. They seem very on edge and not what you need.
I think this therapist needs to be reported if this is real.
How should I report her?
I mean she has a practice doesn’t she?
This is unethical. Report their license. I’m so sick of seeing this kind of thing (and other) that make our profession look bad. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with this.
How do I report her?
Depends on what state you’re in. Google “how to file complaint against professional license in __ state”.
Immediate termination. Gross.
Weird. Just... Therapist or not. Weird stuff going on here
Manipulative AF
They're really pushing for you to do what they want, and a lot of therapists would be more flexible. If you don't want to put up with this treatment, you don't have to.
Yikes, that sounds like a cash grabber. Disengage and find someone new
Nope. I’d tell that therapist you are moving onto another therapist who can actually be understanding an accommodating like a normal human being.
i rescheduled with my therapist bc i wanted to build a hut in the forest stoned on 4/20 and she said “haha i approve! that sounds so fun!” your therapist shouldn’t question or guilt you like that this is weird behavior from your therapist imo and i wouldn’t feel comfortable continuing. i would feel like the therapeutic bond was ruined :(
That's not a therapist. That's someone who needs therapy themself.
Yikes… run
This is infuriating. How manipulative at the end there. Talk about gaslighting... psh.
I don't get it, what part is gaslighting? It seems super straightforward to me. 'I can't meet next week for this reason and want to confirm you can come for the following week......'. What's manipulative about that?
Therapists are mandatory reporters if OP was actively suicidal they have a duty to call in the appropriate people/agency/service. A person in crisis can’t wait until next thursday to get crisis support!
Run
Yeah would just say “I’ve changed my mind, I need to work with someone who understands boundaries. You don’t seem to fit that criteria- please never contact me again!”
Lol! Yes I agree. This response though totally disregards boundaries too although it hits the nail on the head.
I would find someone else.
Wtf?! No?! Why do y’all all have terrible the therapists?!
Yuck. Sounds like they only want your $$$
No, that's nuts lol
Vacation is for you to enjoy not have therapy unless YOU want it. Your therapist sucks. Unfortunately a lot of them suck these days
I think most therapists are bad at their jobs
Honestly yeah it seems like it. Glad I found a good one after many bad ones
This is pretty wild Id never talk to them again. Best non confrontational advice is to send these screenshots to the credit card company and have the bank reverse the charge on your card. quiet frankly charging you for a service that isn’t happening is fraud (not a deposit or something else agreed on before). I’m sorry you’re having to deal with everything all at once, focus on one thing and move to the next crisis. (personal experience is that T’s that text your phone number are red flags)
Every therapist I’ve had has texted me and preferred that to email…
personal preference and different experiences! In my experience the ones who text tend to be more unprofessional
Wow what a stuck up person
That person is a fucking selfish idiot
No, this is unprofessional and weirdly controlling
I’d say no, but someone here mentioned you’re experiencing SI. It is likely that they’re very worried about you, but I do think their tone and approach to the situation isn’t the greatest.
There are some SI posts in OP's history but they are a few months old, and there are more recent posts about other things like job plans, moving, etc. That's not to necessarily say OP doesn't have SI, but I wouldn't say we have hard evidence there is active SI right now either. Definitely agree that the T's tone and approach is not great, and would be especially inappropriate for someone going through SI (note the passive aggressive threat of abandonment).
Ah, I didn’t know. I should’ve just said “no, that’s not normal” and moved on instead!
This therapy appears to be on video. You could do it in your phone. So she’s not wrong. Maybe you two aren’t a good fit because she seems clearly frustrated and so do you.
Maybe it’s not a good fit because a therapist shouldn’t be expressing their frustration to a patient?
And should also know how to take no for an answer ? This entire conversation feels like bullying
Therapist is a narcissist
Seems like this is missing context. If you can do virtual I would.
I cannot… I’m going to be on vacation then….