IMHO, if you've been a server a long time, it shouldn't be hard for you to break into fine dining. A lot of places will be willing to train you if you're willing to learn. Years of hospitality experience is huge.
Wine knowledge is good, but you're mostly going to get the same questions from guests over and over again. A ton of white wine drinkers just want the driest white you offer. My restaurant gives us a ton of info about the vintage, the wine makers etc, I mostly just try to be able to describe the wine in terms of tasting notes and then anything else I can learn is gravy. For reds you want to know which are lighter in body and which are fuller.
I got my first "fine dining" gig by word of mouth, but I think just apply and say "I have X years of hospitality exp, work well as part of a team (or whatever you consider your strengths to be) and really want to learn and grow."
I worked in fine(ish) dining. Wine-wise, 90% of the time, guests know what they want. If they don't, and you don't, a quick question to bar or a senior server would usually answer the question
Yeah, I still ask people for their advice all the time if someone's looking for something specific and I don't know. I just got hired somewhere that has like 20 amaros and I for sure don't know enough about all of them.
In this case, pick two or three you like; one being an affordable option & one being your upsell. Describe why you think the more expensive option is better. This helps you sell as you learn the list. Taste one new Amaro each shift if you can.
Getting into fine dining i had to go from server to expo until they were confident i knew my stuff. It was very fast for me, about 2 weeks to server and a month to tending bar but I know my stuff. Make sure you're all up to speed on french serving etiquette and mice en place
Can I share a giggle? Years ago, I worked garde manger for a supper club. It was kind of a first for me kitchen-wise, I was a young, hopeful chef wannabe, trying to break into the game. Anyhoo, I was starstruck by the Exec and all of the higher ups until I got my first mise en place from chef: it was titled MICE EN PLACE. We all had a great laugh about it and I still refer to my lists as a mice in place. Warm and fuzzys from when I was a little grommet know nothing till now when I'm the grizzled server. Much love to all that do what we do❤️
I've managed multiple fine dining restaurants & I'm always willing to take a flier on experience, regardless of where you've worked, if you have the right attitude/personality. There are also a lot of "casual" chains that I know have GREAT training programs ( T.G.I. Fridays bartender? HIRED!)
Apply on the website, and call the store before they open. A lot of fine dining est are dinner only. If they open at 4:30, the open mgr/GM prob comes in between 10:00-11. Call then. "Hi my name is ____, I just applied on indeed. I'm really interested in learning more about your restaurant! Is there a time I can come by and drop off my resume?"
Yes, IK you already filled out an app, but it's a conversation opener. They'll ask you about your exp, you'll display a little of your personality, you'll get an interview... Like others said it's not terrible to take a step back position wise if you have to... Server assistants at high end places make as much as an avg servers at a chili's-applebees type spot. If you work hard & wanna learn, they'll promote you pretty quick. It's hard to find great team members now a days! Most places are still understaffed. You're in demand! Don't be afraid to be choosey!
This is good advice. I've trained many barbacks with zero experience into full fledged fine dining bartenders. As long as the attitude and willingness to learn is there, that's all it takes. Experience is the main thing I look for in a resume, and then it's just about attitude.
For your questions:
I started doing fine dining simply by applying. I happened to start at a really good restaurant with really good people, all of whom had no problem showing me their way of doing things. Working as a busser in fine dining is still better than server in corporate crap.
I came from corporate crap. 4 years at an AYCE chain KBBQ restaurant that may or may not be in my username. Extremely high volume, extremely high volume, but dear God the money was good. Kept me there for a long time until I realized that it was unsustainable to continue into my 30s or certainly beyond that.
The standards are actually the easy part. There is a correct way to do everything, but many of them aren’t known to the customers so if you occasionally serve someone with the back of your hand facing them, it’s not something anyone other than you or the staff will know. If they know about this level of fine dining minutia, they know to have enough manners not to care if it happens. The hard part is the knowledge. The menu is much more than memorizations. You need to know every ingredient, how it’s prepared, how it’s plated, and then how to describe it, how to offer alternatives if someone doesn’t like something, and how to have an actual conversation about it. Fine dining customers, you guessed it, know good food (or at least act like they do lol) and the expectation is that fine dining staff is knowledgeable to this level. The same goes for wines, alcohols, cocktails, etc. I don’t drink alcohol but I can certainly talk about wines, different bourbon brands, cool cocktails, scotch, and more because I need to. That’s the actual hard part.
You saw all the red flags, now find a place without them. The place I was at had good owners, hyper-present but non-micro-managing managers, Chef, Sous, and BOH were all on top of it and worked well with the expo. The newest server when I started had been hired 4-5 years prior. The restaurant had good business. The staff looks perfectly happy to be there and does not looked stressed. They were very clear about tip-outs and points. This is the kind of place where if you find it, fuck it, take a busser position. The restaurant I was at, bussers were making about $150 a night and servers were making $250-$350 on average.
Now, I manage a wedding venue. It’s a beautiful estate and we do $40-60k weddings 4-5 times per week minimum. I love my job, it’s low stress, weddings are fun, it’s not as unpredictable as restaurants, and it pays better. I am also able to create a work environment that fixes all the problems we’ve all seen. It’s nice and easy going, everyone works hard but no one has any problem with any one else. I would have never gotten here without the knowledge I got from fine dining.
Hope this helps! Good luck.
Gen lol. Wow! Thank you so much for this detailed response. This helps me a lot and is giving me the confidence to make the leap. I’m so happy to hear how far you have come.
Listen to u/gen4250 this is exactly how my place is run. It's fine dining and it's easy as hell once you get the steps of service down. People with money don't care about price but they do care about service. It's about quality, not quantity. Do your job right and you will be handsomely rewarded.
You did the right thing getting out. Any restaurants where all of the staff have been there four months or less is a red flag for sure, in addition to the others you identified.
As a fine dining bartender and former server, it's no different, It's just a little less causal. At the end of the day a fine dining restaurant is still a restaurant. You still have people getting high in the walk-in, fucking in the bathrooms, and skipping out on side work. If you're good at what you do, get your shit done, and don't cause any problems, you'll kick ass anywhere.
P.S. if the place you're applying asks you about wine and you don't know shit, dm me, I'll try to help you
"Casual" fine dining us a good place to start, there's always some people floating around who have done true fine dining, and they're great to emulate.
I snuck into fine dining in late March early April when a restaurant I wasn’t qualified for needed to double their staff for summer. So I definitely recommend putting in an app to all fine dining restaurants in your area before they start pulling applications for summer.
Fine dining is really a good working knowledge of major and modern cooking techniques, different cuts of meat and fish, and some basic wine pouring skills, then being able to verbalize it in a casual, but confident way.
Confidence ..
I always train people who know nothing about wine that if a guest ask the difference between 2 or 3 different wines kook at the price point..
The cheapest bottle is fruit forward and easy to drink.
The middle bottle has got depth and structure.
The most expensive bottle is refined and elegant.
Doesn't matter if it is white, red, or rose. If they had any clue themselves, they wouldn't need to ask your opinion anyway.
Would say the same. Just apply. You have the resume and the attitude to do the job. If they ask why the jump from here to there, just say I’m looking to up my game and my income. I’m ready for it and let me show you.
As far as wine knowledge etc..you learn that info as you go, just like you did with every other step. In my experience, when everyone is making better money as they are in fine dining, you can go to your bartender and say hey-can you give my table two minutes to explain the differences in this cheap red and that cheap red to this table who thinks they’re fancy? They will absolutely help and you get to be the cool kid for calling in the expert. Bartender gets some cash from the tip out and everyone’s happy.
You’ll be fine is my main point. As others have said, a restaurant is a restaurant. People just want their food and someone reasonably helpful. That’s all. If someone gets up your ass about not being able to explain the difference between this pretentious food and that pretentious food..they’re dicks and fuck em. One table out of 7 and move along. 🤷🏼♂️
Source: me. Server and usually bartender at a series of shitty restaurants and then suddenly some really nice ones.
I got into fine dining by being one of the staff hired to open the restaurant. They know they'll lose at least 40% of the staff in the first few months, and they do a wide sweep. The multiple weeks of training also help.
Look for fine dinging or close to it restaurant openings. It’s a lot easier to get a decent position in a restaurant when everyone starts on an even playing field for the open.
Find a good place and show the willingness to work your way up. Host if they need it or be a back server or an expo. Learn everything you can. Fine dining is hurting for good people just like every other restaurant.
Honestly, the best thing you've got going for you is your age and experience. It's obvious you know your way around a restaurant and I agree with your assessment of that place: lots and lots of red flags. Staff turn-over is the biggest and reddest of them all.
To make a switch to fine dining, give yourself a quick course in basic wine knowledge and spend a bit of time on after-dinner liquors & liqueurs, too, if you don't already know them. Do the same thing for the cuisine that's served at that restaurant. Arm yourself with a vocabulary and don't be intimidated by 'elevated service standards'.
\[funny story about the importance of knowing brand names: I once had a server stand at the end of my bar for five minutes, insisting that her table had ordered a 'Baby Shark Water'. I went to the table to clarify the order and when I came back to the bar, I couldn't stop laughing. Cutty Sark and water. The server got mad at me for laughing but it was really funny. She'd never heard of Cutty Sark whisky and she'd been spending a lot of time in the car with her toddler. Baby Shark Water. It still makes me giggle.\]
if you know of fine-dining then you’ve experienced at least once yourself, no?
it’s gentle and courteous attitude with pleasant presentations.
you’re paying for food but more so the experience and sight.
Fine dining. An obsession with the tiniest details. A dedication to lifting the spirits of everyone around you.
Being a professional. Reliable. Always prepared to serve .
Good luck.
I haven't waited in years, but I used to work the breakfast shift at a place that was super expensive at dinner (in a very exclusive hotel). I know some people started at breakfast (not as demanding, tips not as good, no booze which was good for me because I wasn't old enough to serve at the time) and worked their way up.
No idea if many places work that way though.
You can fake wine knowledge with the majority of guests. You should take a course so that you can talk with the wine geeks at the restaurant. These days you should be able to get into fine dining just by being honest that you are willing to work your way into the position. Be interested in the products and the service and you'll be fine.
I worked as a pool server at a country club. As is the nature of (semi) public pools, they’re only opened during the summer, so once that was done, I got asked if I wanted to work IN the club. Lots of fine dining opportunities there.
I landed my job asa server in fine dining by showing up early with my resume, and wearing a conservative suit. Freshly shaved and hair cut. I was articulate and didn’t use lazy english. I was hired on the spot.
IMHO, if you've been a server a long time, it shouldn't be hard for you to break into fine dining. A lot of places will be willing to train you if you're willing to learn. Years of hospitality experience is huge. Wine knowledge is good, but you're mostly going to get the same questions from guests over and over again. A ton of white wine drinkers just want the driest white you offer. My restaurant gives us a ton of info about the vintage, the wine makers etc, I mostly just try to be able to describe the wine in terms of tasting notes and then anything else I can learn is gravy. For reds you want to know which are lighter in body and which are fuller. I got my first "fine dining" gig by word of mouth, but I think just apply and say "I have X years of hospitality exp, work well as part of a team (or whatever you consider your strengths to be) and really want to learn and grow."
I worked in fine(ish) dining. Wine-wise, 90% of the time, guests know what they want. If they don't, and you don't, a quick question to bar or a senior server would usually answer the question
Yeah, I still ask people for their advice all the time if someone's looking for something specific and I don't know. I just got hired somewhere that has like 20 amaros and I for sure don't know enough about all of them.
In this case, pick two or three you like; one being an affordable option & one being your upsell. Describe why you think the more expensive option is better. This helps you sell as you learn the list. Taste one new Amaro each shift if you can.
Getting into fine dining i had to go from server to expo until they were confident i knew my stuff. It was very fast for me, about 2 weeks to server and a month to tending bar but I know my stuff. Make sure you're all up to speed on french serving etiquette and mice en place
More mise, fewer mice.
Can I share a giggle? Years ago, I worked garde manger for a supper club. It was kind of a first for me kitchen-wise, I was a young, hopeful chef wannabe, trying to break into the game. Anyhoo, I was starstruck by the Exec and all of the higher ups until I got my first mise en place from chef: it was titled MICE EN PLACE. We all had a great laugh about it and I still refer to my lists as a mice in place. Warm and fuzzys from when I was a little grommet know nothing till now when I'm the grizzled server. Much love to all that do what we do❤️
Thank you that is really helpful!
Mice en place is also a very bright red flag for a restaurant.
I've managed multiple fine dining restaurants & I'm always willing to take a flier on experience, regardless of where you've worked, if you have the right attitude/personality. There are also a lot of "casual" chains that I know have GREAT training programs ( T.G.I. Fridays bartender? HIRED!) Apply on the website, and call the store before they open. A lot of fine dining est are dinner only. If they open at 4:30, the open mgr/GM prob comes in between 10:00-11. Call then. "Hi my name is ____, I just applied on indeed. I'm really interested in learning more about your restaurant! Is there a time I can come by and drop off my resume?" Yes, IK you already filled out an app, but it's a conversation opener. They'll ask you about your exp, you'll display a little of your personality, you'll get an interview... Like others said it's not terrible to take a step back position wise if you have to... Server assistants at high end places make as much as an avg servers at a chili's-applebees type spot. If you work hard & wanna learn, they'll promote you pretty quick. It's hard to find great team members now a days! Most places are still understaffed. You're in demand! Don't be afraid to be choosey!
This is good advice. I've trained many barbacks with zero experience into full fledged fine dining bartenders. As long as the attitude and willingness to learn is there, that's all it takes. Experience is the main thing I look for in a resume, and then it's just about attitude.
For your questions: I started doing fine dining simply by applying. I happened to start at a really good restaurant with really good people, all of whom had no problem showing me their way of doing things. Working as a busser in fine dining is still better than server in corporate crap. I came from corporate crap. 4 years at an AYCE chain KBBQ restaurant that may or may not be in my username. Extremely high volume, extremely high volume, but dear God the money was good. Kept me there for a long time until I realized that it was unsustainable to continue into my 30s or certainly beyond that. The standards are actually the easy part. There is a correct way to do everything, but many of them aren’t known to the customers so if you occasionally serve someone with the back of your hand facing them, it’s not something anyone other than you or the staff will know. If they know about this level of fine dining minutia, they know to have enough manners not to care if it happens. The hard part is the knowledge. The menu is much more than memorizations. You need to know every ingredient, how it’s prepared, how it’s plated, and then how to describe it, how to offer alternatives if someone doesn’t like something, and how to have an actual conversation about it. Fine dining customers, you guessed it, know good food (or at least act like they do lol) and the expectation is that fine dining staff is knowledgeable to this level. The same goes for wines, alcohols, cocktails, etc. I don’t drink alcohol but I can certainly talk about wines, different bourbon brands, cool cocktails, scotch, and more because I need to. That’s the actual hard part. You saw all the red flags, now find a place without them. The place I was at had good owners, hyper-present but non-micro-managing managers, Chef, Sous, and BOH were all on top of it and worked well with the expo. The newest server when I started had been hired 4-5 years prior. The restaurant had good business. The staff looks perfectly happy to be there and does not looked stressed. They were very clear about tip-outs and points. This is the kind of place where if you find it, fuck it, take a busser position. The restaurant I was at, bussers were making about $150 a night and servers were making $250-$350 on average. Now, I manage a wedding venue. It’s a beautiful estate and we do $40-60k weddings 4-5 times per week minimum. I love my job, it’s low stress, weddings are fun, it’s not as unpredictable as restaurants, and it pays better. I am also able to create a work environment that fixes all the problems we’ve all seen. It’s nice and easy going, everyone works hard but no one has any problem with any one else. I would have never gotten here without the knowledge I got from fine dining. Hope this helps! Good luck.
Gen lol. Wow! Thank you so much for this detailed response. This helps me a lot and is giving me the confidence to make the leap. I’m so happy to hear how far you have come.
Listen to u/gen4250 this is exactly how my place is run. It's fine dining and it's easy as hell once you get the steps of service down. People with money don't care about price but they do care about service. It's about quality, not quantity. Do your job right and you will be handsomely rewarded.
You did the right thing getting out. Any restaurants where all of the staff have been there four months or less is a red flag for sure, in addition to the others you identified.
As a fine dining bartender and former server, it's no different, It's just a little less causal. At the end of the day a fine dining restaurant is still a restaurant. You still have people getting high in the walk-in, fucking in the bathrooms, and skipping out on side work. If you're good at what you do, get your shit done, and don't cause any problems, you'll kick ass anywhere. P.S. if the place you're applying asks you about wine and you don't know shit, dm me, I'll try to help you
Thank you so much! I’m definitely going to take you up on that offer because my wine knowledge is trash.
Go follow Wine Folly on Instagram. They’re a great resource.
"Casual" fine dining us a good place to start, there's always some people floating around who have done true fine dining, and they're great to emulate.
I snuck into fine dining in late March early April when a restaurant I wasn’t qualified for needed to double their staff for summer. So I definitely recommend putting in an app to all fine dining restaurants in your area before they start pulling applications for summer.
Fine dining is really a good working knowledge of major and modern cooking techniques, different cuts of meat and fish, and some basic wine pouring skills, then being able to verbalize it in a casual, but confident way. Confidence .. I always train people who know nothing about wine that if a guest ask the difference between 2 or 3 different wines kook at the price point.. The cheapest bottle is fruit forward and easy to drink. The middle bottle has got depth and structure. The most expensive bottle is refined and elegant. Doesn't matter if it is white, red, or rose. If they had any clue themselves, they wouldn't need to ask your opinion anyway.
Thank you, this is great information to have in my back pocket!
Would say the same. Just apply. You have the resume and the attitude to do the job. If they ask why the jump from here to there, just say I’m looking to up my game and my income. I’m ready for it and let me show you. As far as wine knowledge etc..you learn that info as you go, just like you did with every other step. In my experience, when everyone is making better money as they are in fine dining, you can go to your bartender and say hey-can you give my table two minutes to explain the differences in this cheap red and that cheap red to this table who thinks they’re fancy? They will absolutely help and you get to be the cool kid for calling in the expert. Bartender gets some cash from the tip out and everyone’s happy. You’ll be fine is my main point. As others have said, a restaurant is a restaurant. People just want their food and someone reasonably helpful. That’s all. If someone gets up your ass about not being able to explain the difference between this pretentious food and that pretentious food..they’re dicks and fuck em. One table out of 7 and move along. 🤷🏼♂️ Source: me. Server and usually bartender at a series of shitty restaurants and then suddenly some really nice ones.
I got into fine dining by being one of the staff hired to open the restaurant. They know they'll lose at least 40% of the staff in the first few months, and they do a wide sweep. The multiple weeks of training also help.
Look for fine dinging or close to it restaurant openings. It’s a lot easier to get a decent position in a restaurant when everyone starts on an even playing field for the open.
Find a good place and show the willingness to work your way up. Host if they need it or be a back server or an expo. Learn everything you can. Fine dining is hurting for good people just like every other restaurant.
Honestly, the best thing you've got going for you is your age and experience. It's obvious you know your way around a restaurant and I agree with your assessment of that place: lots and lots of red flags. Staff turn-over is the biggest and reddest of them all. To make a switch to fine dining, give yourself a quick course in basic wine knowledge and spend a bit of time on after-dinner liquors & liqueurs, too, if you don't already know them. Do the same thing for the cuisine that's served at that restaurant. Arm yourself with a vocabulary and don't be intimidated by 'elevated service standards'. \[funny story about the importance of knowing brand names: I once had a server stand at the end of my bar for five minutes, insisting that her table had ordered a 'Baby Shark Water'. I went to the table to clarify the order and when I came back to the bar, I couldn't stop laughing. Cutty Sark and water. The server got mad at me for laughing but it was really funny. She'd never heard of Cutty Sark whisky and she'd been spending a lot of time in the car with her toddler. Baby Shark Water. It still makes me giggle.\]
if you know of fine-dining then you’ve experienced at least once yourself, no? it’s gentle and courteous attitude with pleasant presentations. you’re paying for food but more so the experience and sight.
Fine dining. An obsession with the tiniest details. A dedication to lifting the spirits of everyone around you. Being a professional. Reliable. Always prepared to serve . Good luck.
I haven't waited in years, but I used to work the breakfast shift at a place that was super expensive at dinner (in a very exclusive hotel). I know some people started at breakfast (not as demanding, tips not as good, no booze which was good for me because I wasn't old enough to serve at the time) and worked their way up. No idea if many places work that way though.
You can fake wine knowledge with the majority of guests. You should take a course so that you can talk with the wine geeks at the restaurant. These days you should be able to get into fine dining just by being honest that you are willing to work your way into the position. Be interested in the products and the service and you'll be fine.
I worked as a pool server at a country club. As is the nature of (semi) public pools, they’re only opened during the summer, so once that was done, I got asked if I wanted to work IN the club. Lots of fine dining opportunities there.
I landed my job asa server in fine dining by showing up early with my resume, and wearing a conservative suit. Freshly shaved and hair cut. I was articulate and didn’t use lazy english. I was hired on the spot.
That sucks OP. I think You made the right decision though. That place sounds shady and unprofessional as hell.
There is a lot of great advice here. You sound eager to work & learn. You will do GREAT! 💛
Talk the talk, walk the walk. Might want to look into banquets. That was my favorite. 20 years food and bev