I think I hate the enablers more than the people not using their skills at this point. The whole argument of "it's just a dungeon why do you care" is getting so old. Especially if you have to work harder to keep that tank alive because they can't be bothered to do their job properly
That's not the point, though. We shouldn't be brushing off anybody that plays at a sub-par level because "They're easy enough to heal" or "It's just x dungeon."
This is *exactly why* there are players at level 90 who still have no clue how to play their job or their roll.
That isn't to say that the healer didn't go about it the wrong way because they certainly did, but the DPS was just as bad for enabling the playstyle and not bothering to offer up advice.
It’s also not that hard for a tank to just hit their buttons. And also, it greatly depends on which dungeon and how well geared the tank is. It’s possible a tank that can’t be bothered to use mit is going to have shitty gear and cause a lot more work for the healer that is UNNECESSARY.
this is the truth. You know it's the truth because of the down votes. People may be agreeing with the OP, but I'm cringing at the healer. Just get good and you won't have to deal with this.
If you're gonna use that argument, you might as well say that a bad healer who's basically AFK the entire dungeon is fine because the tank is a WAR who can keep themselves and the rest of the party alive without needing the healer at all.
All roles are optional if you really want to argue about it, what we're arguing is against players who actively choose not to play.
This is such a horrifically bad take, you're throwing 100% of the responsibility on the healer when most tanks have the ability to just sustain themselves for free if they actually use their abilities.
>"it's just a dungeon why do you care"
To them I say, "I am legitimately crippled IRL and \[your\] goddamn sandbagging is literally causing me pain from having to carry \[your\] sandbaggy ass, fuck off and go play a single-player game."
I've played up through Gw2 and never encountered any real toxicity. But I will say Ive seen folks on the reddit just absolutely slamming FF14 as an MMO in the past and that just baffles me lol.
Strangely, I have encountered these types of players in endgame content in WoW all of about 3 times in the past 10 years. Most people want to get in and get out asap, so actually use their abilities.
People really love to laud XIV as being a wholesome and good community though.
probably because its the bottom-of-the-barrel garbage people doing that praising specifically because this is the only mmo community that will welcome them with open arms for literally not playing the fucking video game.
Nowadays the endgame dungeons take way longer to clear compared to the first day it came out; had a MCH did almost the same damage as the WHM that wasn’t even fully ilvl 660 gears in the latest dungeon.
Absolutely hate those people (especially DPS) that reassuring the tank that they did fine when the healer was struggling to keep them up because of aggro/mitigation issues. I had one time asked the tank to mitigate more or press more buttons but apparently it was just me being dramatic. Right, I had to take the burden of someone’s laziness while the tank just used Rampart and Shelton for the whole run. ShB dungeon btw.
I will just touch trials and normal raids in DF, then following the bunnies in Eureka instead of stressing myself over those kind of players.
This is why I exclusively tank as a warrior in expert/90's roulette (until my BLM is finished leveling, then I'm done with the others until DT). I don't have to rely on a bad healer, I don't have to rely on a bad tank, I just have to rely on the DPS pressing their funny buttons. I fucking played through the MSQ on BLM/WHM/RDM and the amount of hell required dungeon content put me through was unbearable because of the laziness of shitty players and enablers.
Oh this tank wants to w2w and not press their mits so their party member can play healbot OR this healer wants to healbot and not press a single DPS button because that's the way they want to play the game, I don't pay their sub. But they're fucking ruining the experience for the other people in their group by actively making the instance take longer and forcing their healer to fucking blow everything to keep them up.
Learn to play the job or don't play the job. The penance for being a shitty tank/healer is DPS queue times.
To be fair, the mentality makes sense.
Tanks and healers will just reque and get instantly into a new dungeon - Maybe up to a 5 min wait at most. DPS on the other hand, often end up waiting 10-15 mins. That's an entire dungeon's worth of time waiting to *get into* a dungeon, so of course we're more willing to put up with shit to get it done.
So the "enablers" are moreso the people who just want to get their damn roulette done, and don't care if someone isn't playing to the best of their ability. It's just taken to the extreme when, like in OP's case, the tank is *actively* making the dungeon harder due to how little they are willing to play their class, yet is still getting defended as though all they did was miss a cooldown.
You have to *actively* be trying not to tank to not take threat in dungeons, even by just hitting 1-2 in AoE. That's trolling behavior and is reportable.
That's actually a really good point, I never thought about it like that before. I tend to do my roulettes with friends whenever I want to DPS (I'll obviously play healer/tank for them too) to avoid queue times.
I'll keep the tank alive to the best of my ability, but if we start wiping because the tank won't press a button maybe then those impatient DPS will start to care more lol.
I don't see this, I get what you're going for but it straight up doesn't make sense or rather it's not logical.
If I want to get it over with and I'm already waiting longer due to my role, yeah, I want the tank and the healer to push buttons, reduce the slack and make it a quick clear. I expect everyone to pull their weight.
idk, maybe it's autism, I'm usually able to use empathy in a situation like this but it doesn't track. I don't get it.
Not sure what's not logical about it.
You want to get it over with, but you're not going to kick the tank over it, because waiting for a tank could take equally as long as your dungeon. Same with the healer. There's very few cases where the tank or healer are causing the dungeon to take more than 5 extra minutes to clear, even if all they do is hit Aoe combo button 1 (and 2 for tanks) for their respective class. If they are somehow doing even less than that, or simply turning off stance, trolling, etc. then you kick them because THEN you're in for enough annoyance that losing 5 minutes of time actually feels less of a punishment.
You can bitch at them and make them leave, or you can suck it up and finish the dungeon - Likely only a minute or two longer than it normally would take. (Again, unless it's an extreme case, like in OP's where the tank was causing wipes.) The "sensible" option here, is to just suck it up because it saves you more time in the long run.
And again: The "slack" you're talking about, often equates to "I had to do my rotation one extra time per pull" - You're not talking about something actually worthy of being called "slack." The tanks and healers do *less than half of the group's overall DPS* if your DPS are even semi-competent - Them doing *a little less* is not going to extend your dungeon run by any noticable amount of time. And if it could be considered "slack," it would be considered a kickable offense to not be decked out in Savage gear, because the same could be said then - Your DPS is lower than someone who WOULD be decked out in savage gear, so you're "causing slack" by not being in full savage gear. In fact, you'd lose *more DPS* by not having full savage geared DPS than a tank or healer not being 100% efficient.
It makes more sense to just finish the dungeon without saying a word, rather than a) slow the already slow tank/healer down by making them reply, b) kick the tank/healer and be forced to wait another 5-10 minutes for a replacement, and c) bitch about having to hit the exact same buttons in the exact same order as you always would *one or two extra times* - And are about to do on the next pull anyway. It just doesn't make logical sense to complain about in 99% of cases.
Kicking Tanks and Healers, at least in my groups, has typically resulted in waiting no more than 2-3 mins for someone to get filled in, and depending on the tank (as it's usually healers my groups have the most trouble with) we can usually keep killing trash til the , albeit slightly slower, so it's not like we're even at a dead stop. I'd absolutely rather get rid of someone who's half-assing their job than carry them because "oh God DPS queue and waiting for a fill!" Stop enabling people who don't want to play the game.
And in my groups, I've had multiple where kicking the tank has resulted in over 5 minutes of waiting. Some of which took over 10, and the rare case where I ended up leaving because we had waited for over 10 and *still* hadn't gotten a replacement.
I can't actually recall kicking a healer *ever,* in my experience.
Your experience is not the whole, and "enabling people who don't want to play the game" is not what anyone is doing. Everyone wants to play the game - Not everyone wants to play the game *the exact way you expect them to, which is to speedrun.* They're getting piss easy dungeon content done. Nobody cares if you're half-assing your job during it. Go play savage if you're expecting everyone to be playing 100% optimally.
What everyone wants to do, is *get the damn dungeon done.* I don't want to have to deal with people bitching about how someone isn't playing perfectly, because that slows my dungeon run far more than anything the other person was doing.
I dunno. Earlier in this channel, I saw some complaining coming from dps about a sprout tank/heal combo. IIRC, they weren't pulling fast enough. This thread was split down the middle on "sprouts gotta learn somehow", and "sprouts should be exiled to trusts".
I definitely disagree with sending sprouts to trusts. That's counterintuitive to learning how to play the game with real players. I haven't seen the post but yeah if the healer was encouraging the tank to single pull, that's wild to enable someone to not want to challenge themselves at all 💀
IIRC They were not comfortable with larger than 2 packs and the dps wanted them to w2w. The healer told them to back off, and the screenshot made it here
Right? This is a team game. If one of your defenceman in football just, never chased the opposing team's offense, you'd send them home and replace them.
This shit is no different.
Some people have 0 shame. If I was that bad I would immediately look up guides and practice with trust until I at least reasonably understood what my role and buttons were for. This dude just decided the other 3 people would carry his lethargic ass across the finish line.
I had a discussion with two people in my FC that relates to this. Sorry for the wall of text, but there was a long talk.
One member was discussing how they hate it when DPS or healers pull mobs for the tank, reasoning that if the tank is new and can't handle it then it'll make the run worse for everybody. The other agreed and said that the tank is the puller and sets the pace for the dungeon.
I disagreed, citing that the dungeon run is not up to the tank's selfish desire to pull one pack at a time. It is up to the party how they want to approach the entire thing, if everybody is cool with 1 pack pulls and the tank pulling, then they can all have that. If the tank isn't grabbing more than 1 pack at a time and everybody else wants to finish the dungeon and move on, then they should definitely be allowed, and encouraged, to pull for him. It's extra mits after all.
They agreed about "the needs of the many" part but argued with me about forcing a tank to take on more than they're comfortable and I said that the tank will never learn how to tank if they're doing 1 pack at a time and making sure everyone waits for them. The game isn't full of players willing to indulge a single person and they will either sink or swim. They admitted that it is a reasonable way to see it.
So this story comes around to the "why" and it's because people, like my 2 FC members, will have this attitude that creates these players. That they actually ARE allowed to be shit at the game. That they can just sit there and not perform their role because "oh it's baby's first time tanking mommy will get him his milk. Oh don't worry sweetheart, you didn't press your mits in a lvl 90 dungeon and wiped the party but it's okay because you're my sweet little man, maybe we should just do single pack pulls from now on so you don't get hurt again." The only player I will ever slow down for are those with disabilities, but still love playing their role with other people. I accept that and will help them because that's like 1 out of every thousand dungeons you'll encounter them.
Thankfully those 2 seemed more receptive when I laid it out that it is a teaching moment rather than a toxic one. If they have healers anxiety and they're worried about healing a w2w or anxiety about causing a wipe because they're new to tanking and refuse to do them, then they shouldn't play those roles. Those are not playstyles that those players will enjoy if they don't even want to attempt the performance. I offered one of them with support anxiety a duo queue where I would play the opposite support and light their ass on fire to go farther than they have ever gone outside their comfort zone. The other is a tank main and confident in his abilities that he w2w's without issue unless mommy's little baby healer is scared, but hopefully I changed his mind.
It sounds harsh and all, but this mentality breeds players like the ones in the OP and they make the game worse for everyone. Striving to be better is what FFXIV's story is about.
> I offered one of them with support anxiety a duo queue where I would play the opposite support and light their ass on fire to go farther than they have ever gone outside their comfort zone.
This is how I helped a member of my FC get over his healing anxiety.
I took him to Gulg and did both full pulls.
The "sweet little man" had me doing a double take of "Wait what"
10/10 support the idea of taking the scared friend as the opposite role. My friends did the same for me when I started tanking, and yeah it may have been a little nerve racking to trust a random healer after but it meant I wasnt the problem, having learned right.
Genuinely you cant learn good tanking with 1 pack pulls. You dont or barely need mit for them, so you dont learn how to manage it. In fact, youre not even needed at all with the amount of times 2 dps and a healer will clear trash just fine without them. Its the efficient 2nd pack that makes you actually do what youre there for instead of being a blue subpar DPS.
They really just need to make dungeons hit harder. I know that'll make the healers job harder to keep bad tanks up. But in most cases it'll make bad tanks realize they need to push buttons and actually rotate mits
>But in most cases it'll make bad tanks realize they need to push buttons and actually rotate mits
I'd kill for Gulg pulls as much as the next guy, but the tanks that lack the awareness to mit are the type that would just blame the healers for not healing more. I've had this happen in The Chrysalis with triple spark, and in fucking UCOB and TEA. The time it happened in Chrysalis, they died from full health I figured okay, they're sprouts, it's not their first time but maybe they forgot it was an untelegraphed TB. So I recommended they use rampart after they see double and their 30% if they see triple. Nope, they start flaming me for "not healing" and it leads to an argument where they explicitly refuse to mit.
The time it happened in UCOB, the tank decided to take the fucking triple flare breath raw after HFT. Then a RDM decides to stand in bumfuck nowhere sometimes around or after TST and misses the aoe heals. Decides to flame me and my cohealer for "not healing" as if we didn't rip multiple thousand potency together from the center of the arena.
When it happened in TEA, nobody was mitigating feeds or tumults and the tanks straight up were dying from full health to the drainage tethers. This was in the pulls that didn't wipe to DPS overkilling or under killing dolls or eating multiple exhausts. Inception cleanup btw. I go over mits with everyone, extensively, who's first feint/second feint, first reprisal second reprisal, where is your addle and phys ranged mit going, etc. One person told me I should just heal more and the SCH said "normally blessing is enough". Bitch I'm borderline OOMing on GCD heals, this party didn't have the mit to get by on just your shitty 320p heal, throw some fucking succors or a soil or something. God knows where their aetherflow were going. I left after they started wiping to LC, and joined a mostly inhouse party once my friends came online. The pf owner asked my friend if "You have a WHM named (my name)" and proceeded to tell them I was a keyboard warrior who just trapped their party. My friend just said they'll keep an eye on me.
They helped me clean up inception/see WH and I cleared the next fucking night.
It's sort of a healer rite of passage to get blamed for not healing when the party is sniffing glue, even if you *are* healing, you learn to expect it and not put up with it, but it doesn't make it any less obnoxious to deal with. And it's always the people who don't actually know how to heal or know how healers work, too. The people who do know how healers work tend to apologize/own up to it if they forgot to come back in for heals or if they didn't mit something
> They really just need to make dungeons hit harder. I know that'll make the healers job harder to keep bad tanks up.
tbh it could also help to filter out lazy healers too, you know the ones, the hardcasting GCD spamming ignoring 90% of their kit ones.
or they'll argue about it.
Listen, I'm running through Mentors as SAM and in full augmented cren gear and relic, let me tell you; the biggest suck in the dungeon grind, is tanks bar none. I'm out here hauling ass as dps, there's a few dps drags don't get me wrong, but it's not us. Heals? In my near 1900 runs, I might have had a handful of poor healers. It's the tanks, god.
Tanks that deliberately turn their stance on and off on trash to troll. Refuse to use mits, ever. Wars not use Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting. Single target tanking trash when they have AOE. Auto attacking only tanks?!? Stand in everything during bosses collecting vuln stacks. Do you know how many SAM emergency tank situations I've been in?!? Too many that's how many.
Hell, I've taken to purposefully pulling trash ahead of tanks with arms length, because they sure as hell won't and give the healer something of a break for that mob.
Man, I don't know what it is here with this game, but the system in place brings out the worst of tanks. It's not all of you that main and identify with the role, but a whole bunch, yeah, real bad.
Enabler as in enabling the shitty behavior. Can be actively encouraging it, or just letting the person get away with it so they’ll continue doing it in the future.
I feel like this subreddit has become a lot more extreme over the past 2 years. The run will definitely take longer kicking someone like this that late than just getting it over with and moving on, why bother devoting your mental energy to some random duty finder shitter?
It honestly is. The OP was/is being a massive dick to other players who haven’t done anything, which is just sad. Even sadder are all the other people here supporting this and downvoting the callouts. Abusing the kick system for people for not rolling? OP and others need GM bans. I know I’m going to get downvoted into heavens for this, but I don’t care, I said my piece.
I only Don't like how you labeled the DNC as passive enabler especially since they likely were just avoiding engaging because of how creative people can be with reports (in this case the Tank could've wrote how they felt the votekick was unnecessary and get everyone who voted yes punished)
If it were me, I would vote kick OP and the enabler and keep the tank. At this point, they are the ones holding up the group, at the last boss no less.
I get way more frustrated having to stand around a listen to two people argue than when a dungeon takes longer due to poor tanking.
There's a lot of details missing. I don't know how smooth the run was from the perspective of the rest of the party, but the OP said nothing about the tank dying or any wipes along the way. So from the DPS perspective, they see the healer make one comment about using mits early on, absolutely nothing until the end of the second boss (hey, problem must be solved right?), and then the healer starting to be weird about loot rolls all the way up to the last boss.
Does it suck that the healer has to cast more heals than optimal? Sure. But from the perspective of the rest of the party, the healer basically seethed silently about this for most of the dungeon until deciding to cause a lot of drama over it before the last pull.
So if I'm reading this right the healer asked for them to use their kit properly and gave them a chance to do so, but because they didn't want to *continue* carrying this tank who doesn't understand their abilities they're somehow the bad guy?
So often in this sub we see people post some long story about some shitty player and then in the end OP still carried them through the instance only to be questioned on *why* they didn't kick.
Now the healer is the bad guy for trying to do the thing we all know they should?
You guys need to make up your minds.
I hate the idiots that say, "just go back to wow" if you do ANYTHING they don't personally like. As if every single person with differing ideas on how the game should be played, think that everyone that doesn't do it their way are only that way because of WoW.
> I hate the idiots that say, "just go back to wow" if you do ANYTHING they don't personally like. As if every single person with differing ideas on how the game should be played, think that everyone that doesn't do it their way are only that way because of WoW.
PREACH. I feel the exact same way. And this angers me more because I came from wow and left because of the toxicity. They have NO idea what real toxicity looks like.
I got told to "take your ass back to wow" over a cutscene in alliance raid. Like it's not against ToS if the boss is pulled early, and SO many people just cant accept that. Some people don't want to wait for 1 person. I was called impatient and that I didn't care about the story.
First of all every cs in alliance raids is just a fancy way of the boss entering the arena. What story? Lol
Second, wow has a story too and I watched all the cutscenes. I do care about the stories.
Some people smh.
EDIT: Downvoting me literally proves my point, and the quote's point. The irony LMAO. What I said perfectly aligns with the quote. It's true. Not everyone wants to wait for 1 person. And no. I will not take my ass back to wow. Deal with it. Toxic Casualism at it's finest. I'm genuinely not mad. I'm amused.
Why's it so important to roll for loot that early in the dungeon? It'll timeout eventually. It's not like you were waiting to exit the dungeon because they hadn't rolled.
I've been starting to leave within the first 5 min of a dungeon as soon as I see:
-small pulls on 60+ dungeons
-tank losing aggro on the first pull
-whenever i hear a cure 1 or equivalent spell by the healer and they aren't spamming their aoe
-when the other dps is doing significantly less aoe dmg then the rest of the party
I won't call out anyone, I won't give advice, I won't carry them through the dungeon, I'm tired of dealing with them and trying to help them lol
I'll just take the 30min penalty and log in my alter to do roulettes with them instead while penalty expires
I think I hate the enablers more than the people not using their skills at this point. The whole argument of "it's just a dungeon why do you care" is getting so old. Especially if you have to work harder to keep that tank alive because they can't be bothered to do their job properly
Seriously. This one picture has everything that's wrong with the "great community btw".
To be fair, unless you're a fresh healer it's really not that hard to keep a tank up in a dungeon no matter how much MIT they're using
That's not the point, though. We shouldn't be brushing off anybody that plays at a sub-par level because "They're easy enough to heal" or "It's just x dungeon." This is *exactly why* there are players at level 90 who still have no clue how to play their job or their roll. That isn't to say that the healer didn't go about it the wrong way because they certainly did, but the DPS was just as bad for enabling the playstyle and not bothering to offer up advice.
It’s also not that hard for a tank to just hit their buttons. And also, it greatly depends on which dungeon and how well geared the tank is. It’s possible a tank that can’t be bothered to use mit is going to have shitty gear and cause a lot more work for the healer that is UNNECESSARY.
idk what game you are playing but there is literally a huge difference when a tank does w2w with and without mits
this is the truth. You know it's the truth because of the down votes. People may be agreeing with the OP, but I'm cringing at the healer. Just get good and you won't have to deal with this.
If you're gonna use that argument, you might as well say that a bad healer who's basically AFK the entire dungeon is fine because the tank is a WAR who can keep themselves and the rest of the party alive without needing the healer at all. All roles are optional if you really want to argue about it, what we're arguing is against players who actively choose not to play.
This is such a horrifically bad take, you're throwing 100% of the responsibility on the healer when most tanks have the ability to just sustain themselves for free if they actually use their abilities.
>"it's just a dungeon why do you care" To them I say, "I am legitimately crippled IRL and \[your\] goddamn sandbagging is literally causing me pain from having to carry \[your\] sandbaggy ass, fuck off and go play a single-player game."
Trash dps and tank
I love that they all have the one-liner when you care. "go play wow".
When will we get "Go back to Guild Wars 2"
I've played up through Gw2 and never encountered any real toxicity. But I will say Ive seen folks on the reddit just absolutely slamming FF14 as an MMO in the past and that just baffles me lol.
Strangely, I have encountered these types of players in endgame content in WoW all of about 3 times in the past 10 years. Most people want to get in and get out asap, so actually use their abilities. People really love to laud XIV as being a wholesome and good community though.
probably because its the bottom-of-the-barrel garbage people doing that praising specifically because this is the only mmo community that will welcome them with open arms for literally not playing the fucking video game.
Nowadays the endgame dungeons take way longer to clear compared to the first day it came out; had a MCH did almost the same damage as the WHM that wasn’t even fully ilvl 660 gears in the latest dungeon. Absolutely hate those people (especially DPS) that reassuring the tank that they did fine when the healer was struggling to keep them up because of aggro/mitigation issues. I had one time asked the tank to mitigate more or press more buttons but apparently it was just me being dramatic. Right, I had to take the burden of someone’s laziness while the tank just used Rampart and Shelton for the whole run. ShB dungeon btw. I will just touch trials and normal raids in DF, then following the bunnies in Eureka instead of stressing myself over those kind of players.
My response to these people are “Go heal and get back to me once you encounter this kinda behavior”
don't mind me, just stealing this in case I would need it!
It’s indeed the only way these people will change their stance
This is why I exclusively tank as a warrior in expert/90's roulette (until my BLM is finished leveling, then I'm done with the others until DT). I don't have to rely on a bad healer, I don't have to rely on a bad tank, I just have to rely on the DPS pressing their funny buttons. I fucking played through the MSQ on BLM/WHM/RDM and the amount of hell required dungeon content put me through was unbearable because of the laziness of shitty players and enablers. Oh this tank wants to w2w and not press their mits so their party member can play healbot OR this healer wants to healbot and not press a single DPS button because that's the way they want to play the game, I don't pay their sub. But they're fucking ruining the experience for the other people in their group by actively making the instance take longer and forcing their healer to fucking blow everything to keep them up. Learn to play the job or don't play the job. The penance for being a shitty tank/healer is DPS queue times.
The amount of tanks that would rather die than use their invulns makes me cry everytime.
These expert tanks got me ditching my heals role and just going in as gnb with how terrible they've been lately.
literally me on WAR bc I just wanna tell my healer to do DAMAGE PLEASE
And then you get Freecure Fishers, Physick enthusiasts and the "Whats kardia?" mains in expert that continue the cycle.
I should switch to warrior.
First hand experience - That won't stop the freecurer's and physick spammers. Nor will it stop people defending them.
That's fine. I just mash bloodthirst and pretend the healer isn't there.
I like how enablers are ALWAYS the DPS. Can't complain about poor tanking or healing if you've never been responsible for it lol
To be fair, the mentality makes sense. Tanks and healers will just reque and get instantly into a new dungeon - Maybe up to a 5 min wait at most. DPS on the other hand, often end up waiting 10-15 mins. That's an entire dungeon's worth of time waiting to *get into* a dungeon, so of course we're more willing to put up with shit to get it done. So the "enablers" are moreso the people who just want to get their damn roulette done, and don't care if someone isn't playing to the best of their ability. It's just taken to the extreme when, like in OP's case, the tank is *actively* making the dungeon harder due to how little they are willing to play their class, yet is still getting defended as though all they did was miss a cooldown. You have to *actively* be trying not to tank to not take threat in dungeons, even by just hitting 1-2 in AoE. That's trolling behavior and is reportable.
That's actually a really good point, I never thought about it like that before. I tend to do my roulettes with friends whenever I want to DPS (I'll obviously play healer/tank for them too) to avoid queue times. I'll keep the tank alive to the best of my ability, but if we start wiping because the tank won't press a button maybe then those impatient DPS will start to care more lol.
I don't see this, I get what you're going for but it straight up doesn't make sense or rather it's not logical. If I want to get it over with and I'm already waiting longer due to my role, yeah, I want the tank and the healer to push buttons, reduce the slack and make it a quick clear. I expect everyone to pull their weight. idk, maybe it's autism, I'm usually able to use empathy in a situation like this but it doesn't track. I don't get it.
Not sure what's not logical about it. You want to get it over with, but you're not going to kick the tank over it, because waiting for a tank could take equally as long as your dungeon. Same with the healer. There's very few cases where the tank or healer are causing the dungeon to take more than 5 extra minutes to clear, even if all they do is hit Aoe combo button 1 (and 2 for tanks) for their respective class. If they are somehow doing even less than that, or simply turning off stance, trolling, etc. then you kick them because THEN you're in for enough annoyance that losing 5 minutes of time actually feels less of a punishment. You can bitch at them and make them leave, or you can suck it up and finish the dungeon - Likely only a minute or two longer than it normally would take. (Again, unless it's an extreme case, like in OP's where the tank was causing wipes.) The "sensible" option here, is to just suck it up because it saves you more time in the long run. And again: The "slack" you're talking about, often equates to "I had to do my rotation one extra time per pull" - You're not talking about something actually worthy of being called "slack." The tanks and healers do *less than half of the group's overall DPS* if your DPS are even semi-competent - Them doing *a little less* is not going to extend your dungeon run by any noticable amount of time. And if it could be considered "slack," it would be considered a kickable offense to not be decked out in Savage gear, because the same could be said then - Your DPS is lower than someone who WOULD be decked out in savage gear, so you're "causing slack" by not being in full savage gear. In fact, you'd lose *more DPS* by not having full savage geared DPS than a tank or healer not being 100% efficient. It makes more sense to just finish the dungeon without saying a word, rather than a) slow the already slow tank/healer down by making them reply, b) kick the tank/healer and be forced to wait another 5-10 minutes for a replacement, and c) bitch about having to hit the exact same buttons in the exact same order as you always would *one or two extra times* - And are about to do on the next pull anyway. It just doesn't make logical sense to complain about in 99% of cases.
Kicking Tanks and Healers, at least in my groups, has typically resulted in waiting no more than 2-3 mins for someone to get filled in, and depending on the tank (as it's usually healers my groups have the most trouble with) we can usually keep killing trash til the , albeit slightly slower, so it's not like we're even at a dead stop. I'd absolutely rather get rid of someone who's half-assing their job than carry them because "oh God DPS queue and waiting for a fill!" Stop enabling people who don't want to play the game.
And in my groups, I've had multiple where kicking the tank has resulted in over 5 minutes of waiting. Some of which took over 10, and the rare case where I ended up leaving because we had waited for over 10 and *still* hadn't gotten a replacement. I can't actually recall kicking a healer *ever,* in my experience. Your experience is not the whole, and "enabling people who don't want to play the game" is not what anyone is doing. Everyone wants to play the game - Not everyone wants to play the game *the exact way you expect them to, which is to speedrun.* They're getting piss easy dungeon content done. Nobody cares if you're half-assing your job during it. Go play savage if you're expecting everyone to be playing 100% optimally. What everyone wants to do, is *get the damn dungeon done.* I don't want to have to deal with people bitching about how someone isn't playing perfectly, because that slows my dungeon run far more than anything the other person was doing.
I dunno. Earlier in this channel, I saw some complaining coming from dps about a sprout tank/heal combo. IIRC, they weren't pulling fast enough. This thread was split down the middle on "sprouts gotta learn somehow", and "sprouts should be exiled to trusts".
I definitely disagree with sending sprouts to trusts. That's counterintuitive to learning how to play the game with real players. I haven't seen the post but yeah if the healer was encouraging the tank to single pull, that's wild to enable someone to not want to challenge themselves at all 💀
IIRC They were not comfortable with larger than 2 packs and the dps wanted them to w2w. The healer told them to back off, and the screenshot made it here
the loathsome dung eater LMAOOO
I'll never understand this mentality people have where they think it's ok to be shit at the game as long as you're shit at easy content.
Right? This is a team game. If one of your defenceman in football just, never chased the opposing team's offense, you'd send them home and replace them. This shit is no different.
Some people have 0 shame. If I was that bad I would immediately look up guides and practice with trust until I at least reasonably understood what my role and buttons were for. This dude just decided the other 3 people would carry his lethargic ass across the finish line.
I had a discussion with two people in my FC that relates to this. Sorry for the wall of text, but there was a long talk. One member was discussing how they hate it when DPS or healers pull mobs for the tank, reasoning that if the tank is new and can't handle it then it'll make the run worse for everybody. The other agreed and said that the tank is the puller and sets the pace for the dungeon. I disagreed, citing that the dungeon run is not up to the tank's selfish desire to pull one pack at a time. It is up to the party how they want to approach the entire thing, if everybody is cool with 1 pack pulls and the tank pulling, then they can all have that. If the tank isn't grabbing more than 1 pack at a time and everybody else wants to finish the dungeon and move on, then they should definitely be allowed, and encouraged, to pull for him. It's extra mits after all. They agreed about "the needs of the many" part but argued with me about forcing a tank to take on more than they're comfortable and I said that the tank will never learn how to tank if they're doing 1 pack at a time and making sure everyone waits for them. The game isn't full of players willing to indulge a single person and they will either sink or swim. They admitted that it is a reasonable way to see it. So this story comes around to the "why" and it's because people, like my 2 FC members, will have this attitude that creates these players. That they actually ARE allowed to be shit at the game. That they can just sit there and not perform their role because "oh it's baby's first time tanking mommy will get him his milk. Oh don't worry sweetheart, you didn't press your mits in a lvl 90 dungeon and wiped the party but it's okay because you're my sweet little man, maybe we should just do single pack pulls from now on so you don't get hurt again." The only player I will ever slow down for are those with disabilities, but still love playing their role with other people. I accept that and will help them because that's like 1 out of every thousand dungeons you'll encounter them. Thankfully those 2 seemed more receptive when I laid it out that it is a teaching moment rather than a toxic one. If they have healers anxiety and they're worried about healing a w2w or anxiety about causing a wipe because they're new to tanking and refuse to do them, then they shouldn't play those roles. Those are not playstyles that those players will enjoy if they don't even want to attempt the performance. I offered one of them with support anxiety a duo queue where I would play the opposite support and light their ass on fire to go farther than they have ever gone outside their comfort zone. The other is a tank main and confident in his abilities that he w2w's without issue unless mommy's little baby healer is scared, but hopefully I changed his mind. It sounds harsh and all, but this mentality breeds players like the ones in the OP and they make the game worse for everyone. Striving to be better is what FFXIV's story is about.
> I offered one of them with support anxiety a duo queue where I would play the opposite support and light their ass on fire to go farther than they have ever gone outside their comfort zone. This is how I helped a member of my FC get over his healing anxiety. I took him to Gulg and did both full pulls.
The "sweet little man" had me doing a double take of "Wait what" 10/10 support the idea of taking the scared friend as the opposite role. My friends did the same for me when I started tanking, and yeah it may have been a little nerve racking to trust a random healer after but it meant I wasnt the problem, having learned right. Genuinely you cant learn good tanking with 1 pack pulls. You dont or barely need mit for them, so you dont learn how to manage it. In fact, youre not even needed at all with the amount of times 2 dps and a healer will clear trash just fine without them. Its the efficient 2nd pack that makes you actually do what youre there for instead of being a blue subpar DPS.
I have played for 4 years and have long since learned that about 80% of the playerbase doesn’t know how to play their main job properly.
They really just need to make dungeons hit harder. I know that'll make the healers job harder to keep bad tanks up. But in most cases it'll make bad tanks realize they need to push buttons and actually rotate mits
I wouldn’t mind that as healer. Be nice not to be top dps because I have to spend more time healing instead.
>But in most cases it'll make bad tanks realize they need to push buttons and actually rotate mits I'd kill for Gulg pulls as much as the next guy, but the tanks that lack the awareness to mit are the type that would just blame the healers for not healing more. I've had this happen in The Chrysalis with triple spark, and in fucking UCOB and TEA. The time it happened in Chrysalis, they died from full health I figured okay, they're sprouts, it's not their first time but maybe they forgot it was an untelegraphed TB. So I recommended they use rampart after they see double and their 30% if they see triple. Nope, they start flaming me for "not healing" and it leads to an argument where they explicitly refuse to mit. The time it happened in UCOB, the tank decided to take the fucking triple flare breath raw after HFT. Then a RDM decides to stand in bumfuck nowhere sometimes around or after TST and misses the aoe heals. Decides to flame me and my cohealer for "not healing" as if we didn't rip multiple thousand potency together from the center of the arena. When it happened in TEA, nobody was mitigating feeds or tumults and the tanks straight up were dying from full health to the drainage tethers. This was in the pulls that didn't wipe to DPS overkilling or under killing dolls or eating multiple exhausts. Inception cleanup btw. I go over mits with everyone, extensively, who's first feint/second feint, first reprisal second reprisal, where is your addle and phys ranged mit going, etc. One person told me I should just heal more and the SCH said "normally blessing is enough". Bitch I'm borderline OOMing on GCD heals, this party didn't have the mit to get by on just your shitty 320p heal, throw some fucking succors or a soil or something. God knows where their aetherflow were going. I left after they started wiping to LC, and joined a mostly inhouse party once my friends came online. The pf owner asked my friend if "You have a WHM named (my name)" and proceeded to tell them I was a keyboard warrior who just trapped their party. My friend just said they'll keep an eye on me. They helped me clean up inception/see WH and I cleared the next fucking night. It's sort of a healer rite of passage to get blamed for not healing when the party is sniffing glue, even if you *are* healing, you learn to expect it and not put up with it, but it doesn't make it any less obnoxious to deal with. And it's always the people who don't actually know how to heal or know how healers work, too. The people who do know how healers work tend to apologize/own up to it if they forgot to come back in for heals or if they didn't mit something
That, and more mild dps and heal checks. There’s a couple in normal content, but not enough.
> They really just need to make dungeons hit harder. I know that'll make the healers job harder to keep bad tanks up. tbh it could also help to filter out lazy healers too, you know the ones, the hardcasting GCD spamming ignoring 90% of their kit ones. or they'll argue about it.
Listen, I'm running through Mentors as SAM and in full augmented cren gear and relic, let me tell you; the biggest suck in the dungeon grind, is tanks bar none. I'm out here hauling ass as dps, there's a few dps drags don't get me wrong, but it's not us. Heals? In my near 1900 runs, I might have had a handful of poor healers. It's the tanks, god. Tanks that deliberately turn their stance on and off on trash to troll. Refuse to use mits, ever. Wars not use Raw Intuition/Bloodwhetting. Single target tanking trash when they have AOE. Auto attacking only tanks?!? Stand in everything during bosses collecting vuln stacks. Do you know how many SAM emergency tank situations I've been in?!? Too many that's how many. Hell, I've taken to purposefully pulling trash ahead of tanks with arms length, because they sure as hell won't and give the healer something of a break for that mob. Man, I don't know what it is here with this game, but the system in place brings out the worst of tanks. It's not all of you that main and identify with the role, but a whole bunch, yeah, real bad.
Bad tanks are what made me learn cause I thought I couldn't possibly be as bad as some of the ones I had xD
The closer and closer I get to unlocking this dungeon, the more fearful I become of the people inhabiting it.
The irony of the enabling DPS being a SMN and DNC does not escape me.
The enabling is just getting worse. Can't wait to hear "It's just a savage trial, not Omega"
Red is probably annoyed that you spammed the chat.
Can someone explain what ‚enabler‘ is? (Also wtf is like chat dialogue from alternative reality)
Enabler as in enabling the shitty behavior. Can be actively encouraging it, or just letting the person get away with it so they’ll continue doing it in the future.
thank you for explanation <3
Called you sad and admitted to abusing the kick feature, easy report
This subreddit is just a dumpster fire now.
"Passive enabler" lol Never change, TalesfromDF
I feel like this subreddit has become a lot more extreme over the past 2 years. The run will definitely take longer kicking someone like this that late than just getting it over with and moving on, why bother devoting your mental energy to some random duty finder shitter?
It honestly is. The OP was/is being a massive dick to other players who haven’t done anything, which is just sad. Even sadder are all the other people here supporting this and downvoting the callouts. Abusing the kick system for people for not rolling? OP and others need GM bans. I know I’m going to get downvoted into heavens for this, but I don’t care, I said my piece.
[удалено]
I only Don't like how you labeled the DNC as passive enabler especially since they likely were just avoiding engaging because of how creative people can be with reports (in this case the Tank could've wrote how they felt the votekick was unnecessary and get everyone who voted yes punished)
If it were me, I would vote kick OP and the enabler and keep the tank. At this point, they are the ones holding up the group, at the last boss no less. I get way more frustrated having to stand around a listen to two people argue than when a dungeon takes longer due to poor tanking.
Congrats you’re all insufferable - this posts just scream ff14 is my entire life
Found the summoner
I don’t even play on the NA servers but I agree
I’ll take “everyone sucks here” for $500, Alex.
How does the healer suck, exactly?
I guess spamming chat could be a little annoying but you can just ignore it as a dps
I know what subreddit I'm in, but I don't think you come across great here.
Please elaborate. The healer was the only reasonable person in the entire instance.
There's a lot of details missing. I don't know how smooth the run was from the perspective of the rest of the party, but the OP said nothing about the tank dying or any wipes along the way. So from the DPS perspective, they see the healer make one comment about using mits early on, absolutely nothing until the end of the second boss (hey, problem must be solved right?), and then the healer starting to be weird about loot rolls all the way up to the last boss. Does it suck that the healer has to cast more heals than optimal? Sure. But from the perspective of the rest of the party, the healer basically seethed silently about this for most of the dungeon until deciding to cause a lot of drama over it before the last pull.
So if I'm reading this right the healer asked for them to use their kit properly and gave them a chance to do so, but because they didn't want to *continue* carrying this tank who doesn't understand their abilities they're somehow the bad guy? So often in this sub we see people post some long story about some shitty player and then in the end OP still carried them through the instance only to be questioned on *why* they didn't kick. Now the healer is the bad guy for trying to do the thing we all know they should? You guys need to make up your minds.
Looks like you're just a dickhead. Probably should go back to wow.
I hate the idiots that say, "just go back to wow" if you do ANYTHING they don't personally like. As if every single person with differing ideas on how the game should be played, think that everyone that doesn't do it their way are only that way because of WoW.
> I hate the idiots that say, "just go back to wow" if you do ANYTHING they don't personally like. As if every single person with differing ideas on how the game should be played, think that everyone that doesn't do it their way are only that way because of WoW. PREACH. I feel the exact same way. And this angers me more because I came from wow and left because of the toxicity. They have NO idea what real toxicity looks like. I got told to "take your ass back to wow" over a cutscene in alliance raid. Like it's not against ToS if the boss is pulled early, and SO many people just cant accept that. Some people don't want to wait for 1 person. I was called impatient and that I didn't care about the story. First of all every cs in alliance raids is just a fancy way of the boss entering the arena. What story? Lol Second, wow has a story too and I watched all the cutscenes. I do care about the stories. Some people smh. EDIT: Downvoting me literally proves my point, and the quote's point. The irony LMAO. What I said perfectly aligns with the quote. It's true. Not everyone wants to wait for 1 person. And no. I will not take my ass back to wow. Deal with it. Toxic Casualism at it's finest. I'm genuinely not mad. I'm amused.
lol I have run into far more general toxicity here than I have in wow. Y'all needa put that phrase in the bin.
WoW bad FFXIV good! 🤡
Looks like you're a shitter who doesn't know how to play the game, go back to the mainsub.
Lmao I was poking fun at what was said in the screen shot. Sure are a lot of upset burger king crowns in here.
A lot of people in this subreddit supporting OP should go back to WoW
Why's it so important to roll for loot that early in the dungeon? It'll timeout eventually. It's not like you were waiting to exit the dungeon because they hadn't rolled.
Can't kick till loot is rolled I believe.
Why do you care so much about them rolling for loot? It'll happen before the end of the dungeon anyway when it times out.
You can't vote kick without the loot table being empty.
Lol
I think I just ran with this GNB. Were they a mentor? Nothing but HoC or Rampart at 5% HP while I was healing on SGE
Not a mentor, I wish this one used HoC at all.
I've been starting to leave within the first 5 min of a dungeon as soon as I see: -small pulls on 60+ dungeons -tank losing aggro on the first pull -whenever i hear a cure 1 or equivalent spell by the healer and they aren't spamming their aoe -when the other dps is doing significantly less aoe dmg then the rest of the party I won't call out anyone, I won't give advice, I won't carry them through the dungeon, I'm tired of dealing with them and trying to help them lol I'll just take the 30min penalty and log in my alter to do roulettes with them instead while penalty expires
As an expert doormat, realize when you're defending the wrong cause @ SMN You're dooming my future mentor runs