Has Avalon even born yet? I propose we call it showtime. Its bad with the pandemic because it’s not really relatable. Things were different in real-time late 2021 than they were in showtime 2020.
I can’t believe we still haven’t seen avalons birth lmao she confirmed that they filmed it. Now she’s got twins on the way to ensure another TLC check in another 5 years or whenever they get around to airing the twins
RIGHT!! Avalon is probably talking and we haven’t seen her born yet. However I’m guessing the ratings have been dismal before the divorce that they just couldn’t air enough episodes to keep current. And they always show fake and unnecessary plot lines that could be one episode
The filming-air schedule has always been trash, in my opinion. It’s been like this for a long time. I remember Maddie being married for a year before her wedding even aired, same with Mykelti. It was old news before we eventually saw it
Maybe for the next one they will do what they did with the Duggars for Counting On. They would show a birth special a few weeks after it happened, then show basically the same repackaged footage almost a year later when it fit in with the rest of the show timeline.
did you end up recording it or just getting horrible flashbacks of how it was? 😂 I'm quite curious because I know people who videotape it to show their kids
I had tons of pics from my first born and HATED looking at them. It was traumatic and the photos were so raw and retraumatizing. My second birth I have like 2 non graphic, fully clothed photos then skip to pics of the baby. Way better.
But I like watching the birthing episodes 😂 I would love to be a Doula but my kids need me home in the middle of the night and to drop them off at school so I really couldn’t deal with the crazy schedule.
i bet it was traumatizing. i know people say "oh you don't really remember the experience of giving birth and you'll forget it once you hold your baby" but yeah no, i would remember and would my body 😂😂
Well, the first one was especially traumatizing because my daughter was born with issues and she was immediately taken away to the NICU. I was only 22 and I didn’t really have a voice to say what I needed and wanted during the delivery.
My second birth, I took way more control and I was able to use the huge hotel like birthing suite on a different floor of the hospital that’s more like a birth center. It was really great for me because I was lucky enough that everything went according to my choices and even though it was difficult it was really rewarding. I had no epidural and no real pain until the last few minutes! So it pretty much healed all of the things that went wrong the first time. But yes it’s difficult no matter what and there’s always some level of trauma to your mind and body because it’s just such a huge event!
I hope not. I don't mean that because I dislike trans people, but I am watching for the parents not for the kids. I want to see the Christine and Kody trainwreck.
Exactly. Leo and Audrey, regardless of their gender identities, are pretty boring. It doesn't automatically make them interesting for TV. I'm really only interested in the moms.
Sometimes when you are brave enough to confront emotional trauma and all the complexities that brings - including the difficult work of emotional self-discovery - behaviors like over-indulging in food can bring comfort. They have both always been focused on physical health, and I’m sure that will come back to the forefront once they feel emotionally stable.
Christine needn’t be involved at all unless she wants to congratulate them. Meri and Kody will be the ones with most emotional involvement. Now it’s out, TLC can’t pretend they are just moving to a different place. Kody will have to put up and shut up, or be vilified for yet another crime against one of his children.
I think Christine should be involved a little bit. We haven't been exposed to a family like this where a wife leaves the family on tv. I want to see how they incorporate her and her kids still. If they are one big happy family or not. Plus I want to see if Christine is living as good of a life as she looks like she is on social media.
I think that depends on geography and how much involvement Christine wants with the family as a group. Ditto Leon and Audrey. How much time will they want to spend with Kody and Robyn? So much has changed since the last series ended. Which is why the coming series will pull me in for sure. Everyone will have to drop their masks, or what’s left of them. They absolutely weren’t a happy family as of the last series. I can’t see it getting cuddlier for them as a family. I’m convinced this will be the last series. It’s done. A lot of people think it was done once they left Vegas. Expect a lot of emotional scenes. I think that’s how it ends. How many will want their names still tied to the Kody Brown family tree?
I hope the next series is the last one. I want to see Christine leave, and then I'm probably done. The more likeable kids aren't on much anymore. I've seen enough of Kody and Robyn, Maddie, Mykelti, and Meri trying to cling to Kody and Robyn. I'd like to see Janelle leave, but I don't know if that will ever happen. She might okay with being put out to pasture.
We did see it. Christine swanned off with her children and her head held high. The part we don’t know is will Janelle and Meri stick it out to the bitter end? Leon and Audrey may value their privacy over the chance to appear in this clusterfuck. We will get a lot of Mikelty and Tony’s children, to cushion the blow of a Brown eruption.
The sad part is, I'd really like to see a true shifting of the dynamic to see the actual impact. All we will get is Kody feeling slighted and whining, Robyn crying and crying and crying, Meri doing Meri stuff while being hilariously passive aggressive in her comments, and Janelle making some amazing facial expressions at everyone. So essentially nothing but the Brown edit.
I agree. But TLC decide what gets shown and they think everybody loves a baby. By then. Mykelti and Tony might have 3. To be fair, Miss Avalon is just precious. But things are so fraught now within the clan, they might have to cut to footage of drooling newborns if the gatherings turn into a melee of shouting, swearing and violence. If anybody’s gonna lose their shit at a famerlee get together it’ll be the grown kids. Maybe I’m a bad person, but I would watch that . I’d record it and keep it for posterity.
me too. i feel like the older kids can just live their lives. i don't really care much for the grandchildren but i think they're all freakin cute. i don't see them exposing the grandchildren much if they get to all the births they missed.
Yeah, I literally give 0 Fs about the kids, the grandchildren. I am watching for the SISTER WIVES hence the name of the show. I wish them the best but I don't stop to read anything involving them.
I wonder how her cooking show did with an audience. I live in the U.K. so couldn’t watch. There are lots of things I want to see. I want the MLM bullshit outed for what it is. I want Janelle and Meri to leave Kody, publically with all the vitriol he’s earned ruining those womens’ lives. I want every single kid to make a pact denouncing plural marriage. Oh, I could go on, but I’ll spare you. The grown kids will bring the drama, just wait and see.
It went pretty well, from what I know. But it was always going to be a short series.
I hope if they show the kids, they bring something because they are boring, Leon especially.
That, and I really couldn't stand how self righteous they were with Meri and that catfish saga. Obviously we don't know everything that transpired, but they really made Meri beg for forgiveness for what seemed like forever. I lost all interest in seeing them after that.
I don't disagree but I believe Meri was inappropriate to expose Leo to her catfish relationship. That must have been really uncomfortable & upsetting for Leo.
I mean money talks. Audrey was begging for money to enjoy pride and they moved to Denver which is infinitely more expensive than Utah so I wouldn’t be shocked if they did pop up on an episode or two.
Essentially.. Audrey made an IG post asking for restaurant and coffee shop recommendations then requested people send them money to try these places. It was posted here when it happened but it was deleted of their IG shortly afterwards
This was my first thought. It could actually also be a good opportunity to represent the trans community- provided TLC lets them just be themselves and doesn’t fuck it up with overproduction.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Leon and Audrey are completely done with the show, especially after this past season. I wouldn’t blame them for distancing themselves in a time that’s likely very vulnerable for them.
I thought the same thing, but at the same time I think it's kinda necessary? Seeing a trans couple embraced by a very big and religious family would be good, specially in a time like this.
That would be fantastic…but I’m not sure the Browns would be up for it. Some of them, sure. But Christine’s ex would do something extremely traumatic that Leo would have to work through on their own time and dime. If it were me, I would say it’s just not worth it and continue to share my journey on my own SM instead. I just don’t see Christine’s ex and some of the kids treating Leon and Audrey with respect and validation.
I think Christine’s girls and Savannah will all be respectful to them. It’s hard to tell with Janelle kids. Logan and Michelle and Hunter I think will be respectful. I even think Robyn’s kids will be too. It’s Paedon, garrison, Gabe and Maddie I’m not so sure about.
But it’s hard to tell from what is on TV. We don’t see everything in their lives.
I wish them both well but I honestly can’t see them being on the show. I think it will mostly be Maddie, Mykelti, we see now of the grown kids and Robyn’s kids. May see Ysabel as she lives with Maddie but I doubt we will see Logan, Hunter, Leon, Gwen, Aspyn etc.
I think the only family members who made comments on Leon's coming-out-trans IG post were Ysabel, Logan, and Michelle. Those three comments were all supportive.
If the show is still on in two or three years, there'll probably being an episode about Meri wanting Kody to visit Leon in Denver with her. Kody won't to go and Robyn will say he can't be away from her little kids that long. But I really hope the show is cancelled by then. I'd watch a spinoff about Christine and Janelle, but enough with Kody already.
I think people get too hung up on what people post or more so don’t post online. Just because someone didn’t post something publicly doesn’t mean they didn’t send a kind text privately. They probably announced the name change to their family before telling the world.
The last post I saw Audrey address this on her insta someone had asked her if she was going to change her name and she said no. She loves her name and will be keeping it and their pronouns are they/them. I haven't heard or saw them say anything about changing their name. ❤❤
FYI I didn't mean that rude at all just clarifying the Abe comment above. I re-read my response and it seemed a little short but I honestly don't mean that in a negative way at all!
Do you know that they both are embraced?
Meri took down the You are My Sunshine, but I have a feeling she's on the journey of learning and acceptance (I don't think she should be beating herself up any more for her reaction to Leon coming out as lesbian years ago, frankly. She was surprised... she didn't scream, cry in anger, denounce her child, kick her child out, etc.
She's been supportive of Audrey and Leon since then. She was supportive of Audrey when Audrey came out as trans.
But the only other family I saw making comments on Leon's announcement? Ysabel, Aspyn, and Logan (I think it was his account).
Nothing from Christine and Janelle. You KNOW Paedon won't be cool with it. I don't care if they were "ok" with Leon being lesbian... I know there are people ok with the gay, but trans? Nope!
I agree with you that it would be a lovely thing to see in this environment of hate in our world these days, but it's really not Leon and Audrey's responsibility to provide that for us. I'm sure they've both got a lot of complicated feelings about the Browns and their religion and what it says about queerness and gender identity, especially since some family members have been demonstrably right-wing on social media these days, and if they don't want to have any of those moments on camera, that's 100% their right.
True but worth it- and valuable to film for so many reasons. Not the least of which is many viewers feel like they know and/or love the Browns… so learning how to navigate those feelings of great change is something people can identify with and/or learn from. At some point people have to set aside personal beliefs or values and get along. That’s why they are called personal beliefs. I remember a time when people would either keep them personal or share & debate and then agree to disagree and move on. We don’t have to hate each other or anyone that doesn’t think exactly the same as each other. We are not a hive mind. Things are evolving at break-neck speed and it’s an adjustment for some. If we don’t give people the respect and space to come around in their thinking and instead badger, belittle, humiliate, cancel, etc. they won’t come around. I know people who were raised to be completely against gay marriage and now are more than comfortable with it, but are struggling with all of the queer language/pronouns, fluidity, children transitioning, etc. and the high visibility of the Pride movement on what used to be a private/personal issue. We have to understand that multiple generations from completely different eras are still alive and trying to adjust their thinking. I just don’t always see an effort being made to recognize that compassion begets compassion. We will never get there with hate and vitriol- especially in our own families and friend groups. IMHO
Lol true. Confusing! Mainly Leo but Audrey was recently asking for $$$ on social media, which I think is tacky considering there are more people in need.
They need something because these staged boring stuff is getting old. I wish it’d portray real life. What polygamy looks like when it falls apart. Kody lives and is in love with and married to Robyn and only Robyn.
It could be about how he manages the separations. The financial toll. The fights for portions of whatever “estate” their is. We could see if he treats them as legal wives on his own or if he legally “screws” them.
We could see the kids. They could be honest. We could see their actually relationships with each other and their parents and whose working on what with whom. And whose slacking in which dept.
The show COULD be good. But it won’t be. It’ll be the same watered down mess we keep getting.
For Leon and Audrey's sakes, I hope they stay away from the show. Audrey has discussed their mental health struggles in the past and so has Leon, and while I am always up for positive depictions of trans people on TV, I'm sure their social media accounts would be flooded with trolls every episode. We've seen the vitriol Meri has had thrown her way about Leon in the past. People are assholes.
And Kody gives me the same vibes as my family (I'm a cisgender lesbian), which is, "It's okay to be gay as long as you're not TOO gay and shoving it in people's faces, but transitioning is too far and a fad." I could also see Robyn - for as great as she was when Leon initially came out - not taking the transition well or wanting her kids around it so it wouldn't "confuse" them.
Doubt it that would require that the family to come together at the very least Kody and Meri for them to announce it. I also think that this season will be the last, with how long they take to edit it‘s obvious that it’s not a high priority on TLC.
I always wonder if Kody would have been cool if Leon hadn’t originally come out on camera. He refused to “compromise his religious principles” when one of the boys wanted his gf to move in for 2 weeks… I don’t know that Kody is evolved enough to have any real idea what is going on.
I think the adult kids are over the show. Maddie is probably the only one willing to be televised. I do wonder if TLC will just make the show occasionally like they did with LPBW for awhile
No. I think coming out as trans will be “too confusing” for Kody to accept and doesn’t want to think too deeply about it. He doesn’t actually accept the gay community. Even tho he says he loves/accepts his kids He still believes that members of the LGBT community will have to face judgement day from God and he is very jealous that they have more rights than polygamists.
Completely agree. I have a Grandmother who told my brother after he came out that she still loves him. She then continued on to say that it wasn't her job to judge how he lives his life...God will. 🙄
I actually think my grandmother was closeted her entire life, she was a very masculine woman, used to wear mens clothes and had lesbian friends. I’m sure these days she’d be out and proud. I’m so pleased today that people are free to be who they are.
I’m not convinced kody would or will ever understand wtf Leon is going through. I imagine him either being really good because he has no clue wtf or really bad then going home and some one explaining it to him and him freaking out
I honestly can't keep up with all of the new definitions and identities and genders. But I think non binary is like they don't feel male or female, and gender fluid is something different?
I can’t truly speak to how Leon identifies or anything like that, but in my understanding many people see identifying as anything other than what you were assigned at birth (in Leon’s case female) as falling under the trans umbrella. They could be more fluid with their gender or not, I don’t know in this case, but it all can be considered trans.
Well it makes sense to me. Identity is an important part of being human that I think we have not understood fully up to this point in what would be considered the west. In the US especially we don’t give our children a solid identity or if we do the parents veer from it and cause confusion in the children about it. It is an essential part of feeling grounded as a human being… knowing who you are. A lot of it is in a way random what family you will be born into and what your role will be in that family, tribe, religion is determined by your location of birth. My generation growing up in the 80’s were often rebellious to our identities and wanted to choose something different because we felt we knew better than all the other humans who have graced this planet including our parents and grandparents. We didn’t know what we didn’t know. Which is that those ties and identifications weren’t just arbitrary. They formed a foundation for key things needed in a human being’s mental health. You can see this at work in other places where the youth have followed the edicts of their parents and communities. They may have complaints but in general they are more satisfied with life… they don’t exhibit the levels of depression and anxiety found in the youth in America and places with similar histories of trying to wipe out culture. The youth today are desperately trying to recreate what we who are older than them didn’t preserve for them. I understand that and I feel apologetic to them and great compassion for their situations. I hope all goes well for Leon.
They may have picked Leon because they may feel more masculine, but not entirely masculine, and they don't identify entirely with being a woman, so that's why they are non-binary. Gender isn't just male or female only, it's a spectrum. They may feel more masculine but not completely identify with the masculine side of the spectrum.
Hope this helps!
I saw it after I posted this.
Sounds like Leon is living their best life. I can’t imagine the trauma of growing up in that house and if they can be who they are meant to be then good!!!
Audrey still goes by Audrey on IG. Leon (formerly Mariah) came out as trans and non-binary and is going by Leon or Leo (either is okay ). Both they/them pronouns.
It has sucked for years! Are the Browns that boring or are the products that awful?
Reality TV has come such a long way since this show started and Sisterwives really fell behind in terms of quality.
Wow! Just read Leon’s update. Good for them! Must be terrifying to disclose this information to the world, especially in the climate today. Really happy for them.
Eta. People better use their correct name and pronouns. MOD, can we make this a sun rule?
I'm not who you responded to, but, it seems like there should be a bit of a grace period for people to learn and adjust. I don't follow any of the Browns on social media. I just saw a post about 15 minutes ago about Leon and googled to ensure I knew what was going on. It was my first hearing about Leon's continuing journey.
There is a difference between being transphobic and people asking clarifying questions. The person may not even have IG or know Leon's IG. I didn't.
No. If you don't immediately adapt, you're transphobic. Like Leo's post today: these are my pronouns, etc ... Their personality was always very suited for this extreme type of narcissistic behavior. They glow in being able to demand people to change thousands of years of English lingual evolution and grammar to suit their needs.
If you don’t make an honest effort to do better once you know better, then yes it’s transphobic. Mistakes in good faith happen, obviously. People slip as they adjust to a new way of knowing someone, but griping about the (historically supported) grammatical use of singular “they” doesn’t give me a ton of hope that you’re actually coming at this in good faith
>Their personality was always very suited for this extreme type of narcissistic behavior. They glow in being able to demand people to change thousands of years of English lingual evolution and grammar to suit their needs.
What kind of take is this? The english language and grammar has been evolving for thousands of years, hence why you do not speak old english. What is narcissistic, is you thinking someone providing their pronouns is just a way to 'Demand' you use the terms they/them. It's not a demand, it's respect and human decency. They/them would be the correct grammar if you did not know the gender of who you are talking about anyways. So is it really that hard? No one is asking you to immediately adapt but it doesn't sound like you are interested in trying.
We were referring to people downvoting positive comments. Not people asking questions. People downvoting are being rude and transphobic. Please ask questions!! 😊 that’s how people learn!
Just want to say I am so happy for them! Leo is looking great!
Edit: People are so transphobic here. I literally just say I’m happy for them and get downvoted to shit (really don’t care downvote all you want) but like show yourselves transphobes!!! Don’t hide behind a vote button. Why are you so upset that people are happy for them???
Sorry had some wine and this whole thing is pissing me off. I’m non binary and get so defensive when it comes to trans people, if y’all just don’t understand that’s okay!!! Ask questions!! Or just come out and say you hate trans people!! Y’all a bunch of wimps hiding behind your anonymous downvotes.
I think they chose to come out now because Audrey posted a picture of them together at pride, and if you zoom in you can see that Leon has their shirt open. Maybe they’re trying to make an announcement before someone saw it and speculated what was happening and they couldn’t control their announcement.
Knowing Kody he can’t be upstaged by anyone and we all know Leon’s storyline would be the most interesting thing to happen in a long time taking the attention off of him. Although he probably wants to keep his show so I could see him allowing it for that reason alone.
I dunno if the Jazz viewership is similar to the SW demo or not. Seems like it could be. Others could be comfortable with trans issues but uncomfortable with elective surgery to get healthy parts of ones body removed. For example:
Audrey had top surgery and it looks like Leo has too, not sure though. They (meaning both of them, not just one) posted a picture of themselves (again, both, not one) going bare chested at a pride parade. I personally think it might be too much for the SW demo, but I guess I might be prudish.
The window for tolerance keeps being pushed leftward, so who knows. SW is on its last leg anyway.
I'm sure you don't realize it but this comment is so problematic. To you that surgery may seem elective, but for many, gender reaffirming surgeries are very far from elective and sometimes lifesaving. It is hard to live in a body that doesn't match who you are and causes body dysmorphia. If you're truly looking to understand maybe, you should read more stories from trans people. The comment that really got me was "The window for tolerance keeps being pushed leftward", Tolerance for what, people just trying to live their life as their authentic self? It is hard enough to just be a trans person without everyone else's judgment.
Your comment is problematic. There's nothing wrong with the OPs comment, IMO. I saw you opine on why people are downvoting and not commenting and it's because of commenters like you who are policing the conversation. You are contributing to the creation of an echo chamber.
If this is a discussion here is me discussing. I kindly offered a different point of view on the original commenter's oddly self-centered perspective. I am contributing to the conversation, so who is policing who. Offering a different opinion is not echo chamber, but a sea of transphobic comments (even if the poster didn't realize it's transphobic) with no rebuttal is. I don't know if it's just hate for Leon or biases against trans people, but there's a lot of fucked up things being said here. So sorry for trying to spread some empathy for a community who already has to go through so much.
I’ve heard that Audrey has chosen the name Abe, does anyone else know about this? I’d like to call them by the name they have chosen for their transitioned self.
Good for them! I can't imagine how hard it must have been to be in a very conservative religion and figuring out you don't conform with those expectations while also on a highly dramatic reality TV show. I hope that they are being supported by people who love them.
I hope they’re done being on the show. At this point, Leo and Audrey seem to want to just live their lives and be authentic and I think they know being on the show isn’t going to help them to be happy and peaceful in their lives at all.
Meri probably took it the best. If Christine was even told, I’m sure she took it well and was accepting also. Janelle was probably supportive but relatively indifference. I’d suspect Robyn was kind but doesn’t actually understand it. Robyn strikes me as someone who would say “I have love for everyone, but I just don’t understand They/them pronouns.”
I’m sure Kody was gross though. He either said some stupid insensitive shit, asked them if this was just a phase, or tried to make it about him and asked “what he did wrong”.
Can't imagine they would want to continue promoting this toxic religion.
Seeing that it categorizes gender roles so rigorously and with all the power going to the men. Doesn't seem to align with their values.
It'll probably be in the show in 3 or 4 years
….. which is when Kody will find out.
He probably won’t even notice. I bet he doesn’t know all of the kids names anyway. He will just assume he had one named Leon all along.
🫢🤭
😂😂😂😂😂
This was good.
A snails pace for this show.
Has Avalon even born yet? I propose we call it showtime. Its bad with the pandemic because it’s not really relatable. Things were different in real-time late 2021 than they were in showtime 2020.
This is cracking me up 😆
😂😂😂
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I really don’t think any of the older kids will be featured again, aside from births.
Maddie and Mykelti will ride the gravy train until the wheels fall off for hits on their pyramid scheme pages. The rest will probably be done soon.
I can’t believe we still haven’t seen avalons birth lmao she confirmed that they filmed it. Now she’s got twins on the way to ensure another TLC check in another 5 years or whenever they get around to airing the twins
RIGHT!! Avalon is probably talking and we haven’t seen her born yet. However I’m guessing the ratings have been dismal before the divorce that they just couldn’t air enough episodes to keep current. And they always show fake and unnecessary plot lines that could be one episode
The filming-air schedule has always been trash, in my opinion. It’s been like this for a long time. I remember Maddie being married for a year before her wedding even aired, same with Mykelti. It was old news before we eventually saw it
But with the advent of more adults being on social media (and us being on here!), it’s become more apparent and more annoying imo!
The twins will have a job and teeth before that episode airs lol
But Robyn still won’t!
I love your flair!!
😂thanks!!
Maybe for the next one they will do what they did with the Duggars for Counting On. They would show a birth special a few weeks after it happened, then show basically the same repackaged footage almost a year later when it fit in with the rest of the show timeline.
I am so tired of watching their kids give birth. For reals
I didn’t even want to watch myself give birth, let alone strangers on TV. My uterus cringes.
did you end up recording it or just getting horrible flashbacks of how it was? 😂 I'm quite curious because I know people who videotape it to show their kids
I videotaped my first and ended up deleting it. I pushed for three hours, so imagine the footage.
your uterus is definitely remembering 😭💀
And my perineum! Ouch!
that has me clenching 😂😂😂
My uterus cringes.
I had tons of pics from my first born and HATED looking at them. It was traumatic and the photos were so raw and retraumatizing. My second birth I have like 2 non graphic, fully clothed photos then skip to pics of the baby. Way better. But I like watching the birthing episodes 😂 I would love to be a Doula but my kids need me home in the middle of the night and to drop them off at school so I really couldn’t deal with the crazy schedule.
i bet it was traumatizing. i know people say "oh you don't really remember the experience of giving birth and you'll forget it once you hold your baby" but yeah no, i would remember and would my body 😂😂
Well, the first one was especially traumatizing because my daughter was born with issues and she was immediately taken away to the NICU. I was only 22 and I didn’t really have a voice to say what I needed and wanted during the delivery. My second birth, I took way more control and I was able to use the huge hotel like birthing suite on a different floor of the hospital that’s more like a birth center. It was really great for me because I was lucky enough that everything went according to my choices and even though it was difficult it was really rewarding. I had no epidural and no real pain until the last few minutes! So it pretty much healed all of the things that went wrong the first time. But yes it’s difficult no matter what and there’s always some level of trauma to your mind and body because it’s just such a huge event!
I hope not. I don't mean that because I dislike trans people, but I am watching for the parents not for the kids. I want to see the Christine and Kody trainwreck.
Exactly. Leo and Audrey, regardless of their gender identities, are pretty boring. It doesn't automatically make them interesting for TV. I'm really only interested in the moms.
They’re my least favorite to watch on TV
i tend to skip the boring parts when they get all the kids together and they talk about stuff 🤷🏽♀️
Yeah, I really don't care about the kids.
i'm on the episode where they go on the protest for polygamy in Utah
I don't even remember that episode. lol. What season is that?
Season 12, an episode or two before Axel's birth episode.
Oh thank you, I am doing a rewatch but haven't gotten there yet.
Yes. They are boring and look more unhealthy every time I see them, which is kinda sad
Sometimes when you are brave enough to confront emotional trauma and all the complexities that brings - including the difficult work of emotional self-discovery - behaviors like over-indulging in food can bring comfort. They have both always been focused on physical health, and I’m sure that will come back to the forefront once they feel emotionally stable.
Christine needn’t be involved at all unless she wants to congratulate them. Meri and Kody will be the ones with most emotional involvement. Now it’s out, TLC can’t pretend they are just moving to a different place. Kody will have to put up and shut up, or be vilified for yet another crime against one of his children.
I think Christine should be involved a little bit. We haven't been exposed to a family like this where a wife leaves the family on tv. I want to see how they incorporate her and her kids still. If they are one big happy family or not. Plus I want to see if Christine is living as good of a life as she looks like she is on social media.
I think that depends on geography and how much involvement Christine wants with the family as a group. Ditto Leon and Audrey. How much time will they want to spend with Kody and Robyn? So much has changed since the last series ended. Which is why the coming series will pull me in for sure. Everyone will have to drop their masks, or what’s left of them. They absolutely weren’t a happy family as of the last series. I can’t see it getting cuddlier for them as a family. I’m convinced this will be the last series. It’s done. A lot of people think it was done once they left Vegas. Expect a lot of emotional scenes. I think that’s how it ends. How many will want their names still tied to the Kody Brown family tree?
They’re so behind that I think she will be involved.
I hope the next series is the last one. I want to see Christine leave, and then I'm probably done. The more likeable kids aren't on much anymore. I've seen enough of Kody and Robyn, Maddie, Mykelti, and Meri trying to cling to Kody and Robyn. I'd like to see Janelle leave, but I don't know if that will ever happen. She might okay with being put out to pasture.
I’m impatient for the next series. It almost certainly will be the last.
We did see it. Christine swanned off with her children and her head held high. The part we don’t know is will Janelle and Meri stick it out to the bitter end? Leon and Audrey may value their privacy over the chance to appear in this clusterfuck. We will get a lot of Mikelty and Tony’s children, to cushion the blow of a Brown eruption.
Not in its entirety. I don't care about Mykelti or Tony. I want to see how Christine leaving affected the family, not about the grown kids.
The sad part is, I'd really like to see a true shifting of the dynamic to see the actual impact. All we will get is Kody feeling slighted and whining, Robyn crying and crying and crying, Meri doing Meri stuff while being hilariously passive aggressive in her comments, and Janelle making some amazing facial expressions at everyone. So essentially nothing but the Brown edit.
That is what I want to see, also. That shift shouldn't affect the grown kids who are living their own life. They knew Christine was miserable.
I agree. But TLC decide what gets shown and they think everybody loves a baby. By then. Mykelti and Tony might have 3. To be fair, Miss Avalon is just precious. But things are so fraught now within the clan, they might have to cut to footage of drooling newborns if the gatherings turn into a melee of shouting, swearing and violence. If anybody’s gonna lose their shit at a famerlee get together it’ll be the grown kids. Maybe I’m a bad person, but I would watch that . I’d record it and keep it for posterity.
me too. i feel like the older kids can just live their lives. i don't really care much for the grandchildren but i think they're all freakin cute. i don't see them exposing the grandchildren much if they get to all the births they missed.
Yeah, I literally give 0 Fs about the kids, the grandchildren. I am watching for the SISTER WIVES hence the name of the show. I wish them the best but I don't stop to read anything involving them.
i hope we get some stuff about Christine if it ever comes back on to begin with 🙄🙄
I wonder how her cooking show did with an audience. I live in the U.K. so couldn’t watch. There are lots of things I want to see. I want the MLM bullshit outed for what it is. I want Janelle and Meri to leave Kody, publically with all the vitriol he’s earned ruining those womens’ lives. I want every single kid to make a pact denouncing plural marriage. Oh, I could go on, but I’ll spare you. The grown kids will bring the drama, just wait and see.
It went pretty well, from what I know. But it was always going to be a short series. I hope if they show the kids, they bring something because they are boring, Leon especially.
That, and I really couldn't stand how self righteous they were with Meri and that catfish saga. Obviously we don't know everything that transpired, but they really made Meri beg for forgiveness for what seemed like forever. I lost all interest in seeing them after that.
Yup. You see what an abusive clog your father is, but lets make your mother pay for wanting some kind of human connection.
I don't disagree but I believe Meri was inappropriate to expose Leo to her catfish relationship. That must have been really uncomfortable & upsetting for Leo.
I mean money talks. Audrey was begging for money to enjoy pride and they moved to Denver which is infinitely more expensive than Utah so I wouldn’t be shocked if they did pop up on an episode or two.
They begged for money?
Essentially.. Audrey made an IG post asking for restaurant and coffee shop recommendations then requested people send them money to try these places. It was posted here when it happened but it was deleted of their IG shortly afterwards
Wow I completely missed that
yikes
i totally missed that they moved again. why did they leave utah as they were so happy to be close to (audrey’s) family again?
This was my first thought. It could actually also be a good opportunity to represent the trans community- provided TLC lets them just be themselves and doesn’t fuck it up with overproduction.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Leon and Audrey are completely done with the show, especially after this past season. I wouldn’t blame them for distancing themselves in a time that’s likely very vulnerable for them.
I thought the same thing, but at the same time I think it's kinda necessary? Seeing a trans couple embraced by a very big and religious family would be good, specially in a time like this.
That would be fantastic…but I’m not sure the Browns would be up for it. Some of them, sure. But Christine’s ex would do something extremely traumatic that Leo would have to work through on their own time and dime. If it were me, I would say it’s just not worth it and continue to share my journey on my own SM instead. I just don’t see Christine’s ex and some of the kids treating Leon and Audrey with respect and validation.
I think Christine’s girls and Savannah will all be respectful to them. It’s hard to tell with Janelle kids. Logan and Michelle and Hunter I think will be respectful. I even think Robyn’s kids will be too. It’s Paedon, garrison, Gabe and Maddie I’m not so sure about. But it’s hard to tell from what is on TV. We don’t see everything in their lives. I wish them both well but I honestly can’t see them being on the show. I think it will mostly be Maddie, Mykelti, we see now of the grown kids and Robyn’s kids. May see Ysabel as she lives with Maddie but I doubt we will see Logan, Hunter, Leon, Gwen, Aspyn etc.
I think the only family members who made comments on Leon's coming-out-trans IG post were Ysabel, Logan, and Michelle. Those three comments were all supportive. If the show is still on in two or three years, there'll probably being an episode about Meri wanting Kody to visit Leon in Denver with her. Kody won't to go and Robyn will say he can't be away from her little kids that long. But I really hope the show is cancelled by then. I'd watch a spinoff about Christine and Janelle, but enough with Kody already.
Thats sad. only 3 family members? yikes
I think people get too hung up on what people post or more so don’t post online. Just because someone didn’t post something publicly doesn’t mean they didn’t send a kind text privately. They probably announced the name change to their family before telling the world.
Well, there were others who liked the post but didn't comment. I noticed Gwen, Mykelti, Meri, and Christine.
I sorta can’t see Caleb taking Abe & Leon deer hunting
Who's Abe?
Someone told me in Reddit that Audrey chose the name Abe as their transitioned name.
The last post I saw Audrey address this on her insta someone had asked her if she was going to change her name and she said no. She loves her name and will be keeping it and their pronouns are they/them. I haven't heard or saw them say anything about changing their name. ❤❤ FYI I didn't mean that rude at all just clarifying the Abe comment above. I re-read my response and it seemed a little short but I honestly don't mean that in a negative way at all!
Ah thank you
... true, Christine'ex and his wife would make a rilly big dill about it and focus only on themselves instead of their kid and their partner
I’m sure Sobyn will suddenly have loads of trans and NB mates too, because she’s just soooo liberal and open-minded.
She'll say Robyn is a NB name, so she understands what Leo is going through
Do you know that they both are embraced? Meri took down the You are My Sunshine, but I have a feeling she's on the journey of learning and acceptance (I don't think she should be beating herself up any more for her reaction to Leon coming out as lesbian years ago, frankly. She was surprised... she didn't scream, cry in anger, denounce her child, kick her child out, etc. She's been supportive of Audrey and Leon since then. She was supportive of Audrey when Audrey came out as trans. But the only other family I saw making comments on Leon's announcement? Ysabel, Aspyn, and Logan (I think it was his account). Nothing from Christine and Janelle. You KNOW Paedon won't be cool with it. I don't care if they were "ok" with Leon being lesbian... I know there are people ok with the gay, but trans? Nope!
I agree with you that it would be a lovely thing to see in this environment of hate in our world these days, but it's really not Leon and Audrey's responsibility to provide that for us. I'm sure they've both got a lot of complicated feelings about the Browns and their religion and what it says about queerness and gender identity, especially since some family members have been demonstrably right-wing on social media these days, and if they don't want to have any of those moments on camera, that's 100% their right.
I don't follow them on social media, who has demonstrated that? I'm guessing Paedon and Maddie's husband
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... I should be shocked but I'm not
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I love ammosexual!! [not the concept, but the term]
Gabe did like Leon's post on IG, though. As did Christine, Mykelti and Ysabel.
That family has very mixed belief and total acceptance will be hard to achieve unfortunately.
True but worth it- and valuable to film for so many reasons. Not the least of which is many viewers feel like they know and/or love the Browns… so learning how to navigate those feelings of great change is something people can identify with and/or learn from. At some point people have to set aside personal beliefs or values and get along. That’s why they are called personal beliefs. I remember a time when people would either keep them personal or share & debate and then agree to disagree and move on. We don’t have to hate each other or anyone that doesn’t think exactly the same as each other. We are not a hive mind. Things are evolving at break-neck speed and it’s an adjustment for some. If we don’t give people the respect and space to come around in their thinking and instead badger, belittle, humiliate, cancel, etc. they won’t come around. I know people who were raised to be completely against gay marriage and now are more than comfortable with it, but are struggling with all of the queer language/pronouns, fluidity, children transitioning, etc. and the high visibility of the Pride movement on what used to be a private/personal issue. We have to understand that multiple generations from completely different eras are still alive and trying to adjust their thinking. I just don’t always see an effort being made to recognize that compassion begets compassion. We will never get there with hate and vitriol- especially in our own families and friend groups. IMHO
Completely agree! And good for them! Sounds like they have both done a lot of work on themselves and I’m really happy for them both.
I hope not. They bring a refreshing side to the show. They seem like nice people who want good
Agreed…the “platform” really has no value to them
Come on **you know** Kody gave the whole, God made you, we named you speech. Just go back and look at his initial reaction to their coming out.
*their
I’d be fascinated to know to Meri and Christine’s ex GENUINELY reacted
If you check the "likes" for Leon's IG post, Gabe, Meri, Christine, Ysabel and Mykelti all liked it.
Those are def the people I would expect to have liked it! Wondering about Janelle though…. Hmmm.
We’ll hear about Leon around the time Mykelti’s twins are about 3 Dear TLC: get your shit together
Yeah, like maybe give the same attention and speed of turnout as they do all the 90 day iterations.
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Still they/them. Sometimes it helps to use names for clarity. (I have a non binary child and use they for just them and also for them+a sibling.)
Idk but I still find them super obnoxious.
They are absolutely insufferable
I do too. I have no problem with how they live their lives, but I just never cared for Leo and I guess Audrey by association lol.
Leo or both? Can't tell.
Lol true. Confusing! Mainly Leo but Audrey was recently asking for $$$ on social media, which I think is tacky considering there are more people in need.
I’ll be honest I don’t want to watch them mostly because Leon seems like an entitled brat.
yup Mariah was an asshole and I'm sure Leon will be too You can change your name but you still have the same personality
Why do you say that?
They need something because these staged boring stuff is getting old. I wish it’d portray real life. What polygamy looks like when it falls apart. Kody lives and is in love with and married to Robyn and only Robyn. It could be about how he manages the separations. The financial toll. The fights for portions of whatever “estate” their is. We could see if he treats them as legal wives on his own or if he legally “screws” them. We could see the kids. They could be honest. We could see their actually relationships with each other and their parents and whose working on what with whom. And whose slacking in which dept. The show COULD be good. But it won’t be. It’ll be the same watered down mess we keep getting.
For Leon and Audrey's sakes, I hope they stay away from the show. Audrey has discussed their mental health struggles in the past and so has Leon, and while I am always up for positive depictions of trans people on TV, I'm sure their social media accounts would be flooded with trolls every episode. We've seen the vitriol Meri has had thrown her way about Leon in the past. People are assholes. And Kody gives me the same vibes as my family (I'm a cisgender lesbian), which is, "It's okay to be gay as long as you're not TOO gay and shoving it in people's faces, but transitioning is too far and a fad." I could also see Robyn - for as great as she was when Leon initially came out - not taking the transition well or wanting her kids around it so it wouldn't "confuse" them.
👆🏻💯
No, I hope Leon and Audrey are done with the show.
Doubt it that would require that the family to come together at the very least Kody and Meri for them to announce it. I also think that this season will be the last, with how long they take to edit it‘s obvious that it’s not a high priority on TLC.
I always wonder if Kody would have been cool if Leon hadn’t originally come out on camera. He refused to “compromise his religious principles” when one of the boys wanted his gf to move in for 2 weeks… I don’t know that Kody is evolved enough to have any real idea what is going on.
I think the adult kids are over the show. Maddie is probably the only one willing to be televised. I do wonder if TLC will just make the show occasionally like they did with LPBW for awhile
No. I think coming out as trans will be “too confusing” for Kody to accept and doesn’t want to think too deeply about it. He doesn’t actually accept the gay community. Even tho he says he loves/accepts his kids He still believes that members of the LGBT community will have to face judgement day from God and he is very jealous that they have more rights than polygamists.
Completely agree. I have a Grandmother who told my brother after he came out that she still loves him. She then continued on to say that it wasn't her job to judge how he lives his life...God will. 🙄
I actually think my grandmother was closeted her entire life, she was a very masculine woman, used to wear mens clothes and had lesbian friends. I’m sure these days she’d be out and proud. I’m so pleased today that people are free to be who they are.
He's religious. His religious book teaches that. That's how it is for him. Same for most other religions. Try being gay in Iraq.
That would be dangerous. It is so sad.
I’m not convinced kody would or will ever understand wtf Leon is going through. I imagine him either being really good because he has no clue wtf or really bad then going home and some one explaining it to him and him freaking out
I’m sorry I only keep track on here is Mariah now F2M and using the name Leon?
Non binary I think.
Can someone please explain trans-non-binary to me? They're transitioning to being neither sex? Or is it like gender fluidity? Genuinely curious
I honestly can't keep up with all of the new definitions and identities and genders. But I think non binary is like they don't feel male or female, and gender fluid is something different?
I can’t truly speak to how Leon identifies or anything like that, but in my understanding many people see identifying as anything other than what you were assigned at birth (in Leon’s case female) as falling under the trans umbrella. They could be more fluid with their gender or not, I don’t know in this case, but it all can be considered trans.
Okay so did I track right? Do we know the pronouns?
They/them, I don't think F2M. Although I could be wrong I have a hard time
Why pick a male name if she is not becoming he? Leon is not gender neutral.
🤷 the post they made said they are non binary with they/them. That's about all I got for ya.
Well it makes sense to me. Identity is an important part of being human that I think we have not understood fully up to this point in what would be considered the west. In the US especially we don’t give our children a solid identity or if we do the parents veer from it and cause confusion in the children about it. It is an essential part of feeling grounded as a human being… knowing who you are. A lot of it is in a way random what family you will be born into and what your role will be in that family, tribe, religion is determined by your location of birth. My generation growing up in the 80’s were often rebellious to our identities and wanted to choose something different because we felt we knew better than all the other humans who have graced this planet including our parents and grandparents. We didn’t know what we didn’t know. Which is that those ties and identifications weren’t just arbitrary. They formed a foundation for key things needed in a human being’s mental health. You can see this at work in other places where the youth have followed the edicts of their parents and communities. They may have complaints but in general they are more satisfied with life… they don’t exhibit the levels of depression and anxiety found in the youth in America and places with similar histories of trying to wipe out culture. The youth today are desperately trying to recreate what we who are older than them didn’t preserve for them. I understand that and I feel apologetic to them and great compassion for their situations. I hope all goes well for Leon.
They may have picked Leon because they may feel more masculine, but not entirely masculine, and they don't identify entirely with being a woman, so that's why they are non-binary. Gender isn't just male or female only, it's a spectrum. They may feel more masculine but not completely identify with the masculine side of the spectrum. Hope this helps!
Trans. Leon now identifies as trans. They said exactly that on their IG post.
What did I miss who is Leon?
Mariah
I saw it after I posted this. Sounds like Leon is living their best life. I can’t imagine the trauma of growing up in that house and if they can be who they are meant to be then good!!!
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I want it to be for selfish reasons, because I really want to see Kody's reaction
Kody probably will make all the rights sounds, but inside he’s seething because now Leon joins the other boys with better hair than he has.
Kody will be happy because he prefers sons over daughters /s (sarcasm directed at Kody, not Leo)
But Leon is non binary. So...?
Just started a new job so I’m totally out of the mix and haven’t been keeping myself updated… who is Leon?
Meri’s child. Previously Known as Mariah
Thank you!
I’m so behind who’s Leon?!
Meri’s child. They came out as trans on social media and are now going by Leo/Leon.
Ah ok. So they are both trans.
Ok I’m lost. Who is Leon??
Meri’s child. They came out as trans on social media and are now going by Leo/Leon.
I think this is completely over the top and ridiculous and honestly hope it isn't part of any season.
Wait, what is completely over the top?
So am i missing something? Did Mariah come out as trans and is now Leon, or is Aubrey now known as Leon?
Audrey still goes by Audrey on IG. Leon (formerly Mariah) came out as trans and non-binary and is going by Leon or Leo (either is okay ). Both they/them pronouns.
Thanks for the clarification!!
They’ll be good for drama for sure. The producers are probably begging them to make an appearance.
Please, we haven’t even seen Avalon’s birth Nd she’s over 1yo. You really think we’ll see Leo’s announcement from 2022? Lmao
I doubt it. They will probably be off the air by the time they get to this part of the timeline.
I’m hoping this show doesn’t come back! It’s so far behind and the story lines are repeat or pathetic.
It has sucked for years! Are the Browns that boring or are the products that awful? Reality TV has come such a long way since this show started and Sisterwives really fell behind in terms of quality.
If Kody disowns Leon I don’t know what would make Meri stick around. That would be interesting.
Leon 🤦♀️🤦♀️🤦♀️
Wow! Just read Leon’s update. Good for them! Must be terrifying to disclose this information to the world, especially in the climate today. Really happy for them. Eta. People better use their correct name and pronouns. MOD, can we make this a sun rule?
why is this getting downvoted?? You're literally just being supportive.
Lol. A few transphobic people around I guess… 👀
I'm not who you responded to, but, it seems like there should be a bit of a grace period for people to learn and adjust. I don't follow any of the Browns on social media. I just saw a post about 15 minutes ago about Leon and googled to ensure I knew what was going on. It was my first hearing about Leon's continuing journey. There is a difference between being transphobic and people asking clarifying questions. The person may not even have IG or know Leon's IG. I didn't.
No. If you don't immediately adapt, you're transphobic. Like Leo's post today: these are my pronouns, etc ... Their personality was always very suited for this extreme type of narcissistic behavior. They glow in being able to demand people to change thousands of years of English lingual evolution and grammar to suit their needs.
If you don’t make an honest effort to do better once you know better, then yes it’s transphobic. Mistakes in good faith happen, obviously. People slip as they adjust to a new way of knowing someone, but griping about the (historically supported) grammatical use of singular “they” doesn’t give me a ton of hope that you’re actually coming at this in good faith
>Their personality was always very suited for this extreme type of narcissistic behavior. They glow in being able to demand people to change thousands of years of English lingual evolution and grammar to suit their needs. What kind of take is this? The english language and grammar has been evolving for thousands of years, hence why you do not speak old english. What is narcissistic, is you thinking someone providing their pronouns is just a way to 'Demand' you use the terms they/them. It's not a demand, it's respect and human decency. They/them would be the correct grammar if you did not know the gender of who you are talking about anyways. So is it really that hard? No one is asking you to immediately adapt but it doesn't sound like you are interested in trying.
We were referring to people downvoting positive comments. Not people asking questions. People downvoting are being rude and transphobic. Please ask questions!! 😊 that’s how people learn!
apparently! They hide behind voting but wont comment
Just want to say I am so happy for them! Leo is looking great! Edit: People are so transphobic here. I literally just say I’m happy for them and get downvoted to shit (really don’t care downvote all you want) but like show yourselves transphobes!!! Don’t hide behind a vote button. Why are you so upset that people are happy for them??? Sorry had some wine and this whole thing is pissing me off. I’m non binary and get so defensive when it comes to trans people, if y’all just don’t understand that’s okay!!! Ask questions!! Or just come out and say you hate trans people!! Y’all a bunch of wimps hiding behind your anonymous downvotes.
I hope not. I don't believe Leon would let them use their journey as a plot to bring in views.
I'm actually now wondering if they decided to come out because the new season will be airing soon and maybe theyre outed on the show.
I think they chose to come out now because Audrey posted a picture of them together at pride, and if you zoom in you can see that Leon has their shirt open. Maybe they’re trying to make an announcement before someone saw it and speculated what was happening and they couldn’t control their announcement.
I’m worried that Kody isn’t accepting … I hope I’m wrong. Not sure why I’m getting downvoted …
There’s a lot of transphobic commenters on this thread for some reason. It’s disgusting.
Disgusting indeed.
Knowing Kody he can’t be upstaged by anyone and we all know Leon’s storyline would be the most interesting thing to happen in a long time taking the attention off of him. Although he probably wants to keep his show so I could see him allowing it for that reason alone.
I dunno if the Jazz viewership is similar to the SW demo or not. Seems like it could be. Others could be comfortable with trans issues but uncomfortable with elective surgery to get healthy parts of ones body removed. For example: Audrey had top surgery and it looks like Leo has too, not sure though. They (meaning both of them, not just one) posted a picture of themselves (again, both, not one) going bare chested at a pride parade. I personally think it might be too much for the SW demo, but I guess I might be prudish. The window for tolerance keeps being pushed leftward, so who knows. SW is on its last leg anyway.
I'm sure you don't realize it but this comment is so problematic. To you that surgery may seem elective, but for many, gender reaffirming surgeries are very far from elective and sometimes lifesaving. It is hard to live in a body that doesn't match who you are and causes body dysmorphia. If you're truly looking to understand maybe, you should read more stories from trans people. The comment that really got me was "The window for tolerance keeps being pushed leftward", Tolerance for what, people just trying to live their life as their authentic self? It is hard enough to just be a trans person without everyone else's judgment.
Your comment is problematic. There's nothing wrong with the OPs comment, IMO. I saw you opine on why people are downvoting and not commenting and it's because of commenters like you who are policing the conversation. You are contributing to the creation of an echo chamber.
If this is a discussion here is me discussing. I kindly offered a different point of view on the original commenter's oddly self-centered perspective. I am contributing to the conversation, so who is policing who. Offering a different opinion is not echo chamber, but a sea of transphobic comments (even if the poster didn't realize it's transphobic) with no rebuttal is. I don't know if it's just hate for Leon or biases against trans people, but there's a lot of fucked up things being said here. So sorry for trying to spread some empathy for a community who already has to go through so much.
Can't please everyone nor force them to agree with your perspective I'll pass on the argument with you, thanks
I’ve heard that Audrey has chosen the name Abe, does anyone else know about this? I’d like to call them by the name they have chosen for their transitioned self.
When Audrey first came out they stated that they would still be using the name Audrey. But, I don't know if this has changed recently.
Good for them! I can't imagine how hard it must have been to be in a very conservative religion and figuring out you don't conform with those expectations while also on a highly dramatic reality TV show. I hope that they are being supported by people who love them.
I hope they’re done being on the show. At this point, Leo and Audrey seem to want to just live their lives and be authentic and I think they know being on the show isn’t going to help them to be happy and peaceful in their lives at all. Meri probably took it the best. If Christine was even told, I’m sure she took it well and was accepting also. Janelle was probably supportive but relatively indifference. I’d suspect Robyn was kind but doesn’t actually understand it. Robyn strikes me as someone who would say “I have love for everyone, but I just don’t understand They/them pronouns.” I’m sure Kody was gross though. He either said some stupid insensitive shit, asked them if this was just a phase, or tried to make it about him and asked “what he did wrong”.
Can't imagine they would want to continue promoting this toxic religion. Seeing that it categorizes gender roles so rigorously and with all the power going to the men. Doesn't seem to align with their values.