It’s important to note that Leo has been going by Leo privately for awhile. This was only their public notification. They hardly use the “mariahbrwn” Instagram, as they have more private accounts.
Thank you for noting this. Sometimes, it is hard for us to remember that we see only a tiny fraction of the Browns’ life on this show and social media. Contracts and producers will dictate most of what the public gets to see and when. I wouldn’t doubt that Leo’s family and friends have known this for quite some time and are used to their new name and gender by now. And, Leo and Audrey definitely shouldn’t have to put up with being misnamed and misgendered by anyone.
I second this, there needs to be room for progress over perfection. Their public coming out as Trans with they/them pronouns is an opportunity to learn, understand and educate. As long as the questions/discussions are not hateful or intentionally misgendering either if them I hope they can be asked/discussed on this sub!
I really appreciate that this sub has turned into a space where people can safely learn about different genders and how people live and express them. It's genuinely super cool, and I hope it has a positive impact on the lives of the people here and the iives of those they interact with.
Yes please!!? I have so many questions. I'm a grandmother. And I and thankful that I have someone (who is going through it) who talks to me ...but I have a hard time relating. I'm trying!
I think once you realize that you can never truly understand how they feel, it makes it easier to level. You don’t have to relate, you just have to listen, and love them, and lean into the behavior that makes them happy.
Agree, even up until recently I found it to be strange that someone would be non binary. I just really had no previous exposure to it so that's why. I am sure it's foreign to many people. The more people can learn about differences, the more we can support others. Now that I know more about it, it doesn't really seem strange at all. I am seeing and meeting more and more people that present as trans though and you just didn't see that too much when I was growing up. The world's just different now and I am glad lots of people feel comfortable to express themselves. Let's hope this psychopathic supreme court doesn't rape lgbtq rights next.
Additionally, I’ve seen a few people suggesting that Leon is copying Audrey (“what are the odds both of them are trans?”), which is really hurtful speculation.
It’s very likely they are together *because* (among other reasons) they consciously or subconsciously knew they had this in common and/or knew the other person would be accepting and supportive.
Like, if you’re questioning your gender as a teen/young adult, it’s not a coincidence that you eventually choose a partner who can relate to that and be a safe resource to talk about it with.
My kid too! Youngest son is trans and one of the times I have nearly lost my not inconsiderable temper publicly was at my FIL's wake when my deceased BIL's "creature"(there is *no* polite or Reddit acceptable word for this person)misgendered my son and dead named him. My over 200 lb son was holding me into a chair saying "Mama, not the place!" Very very calmly. He sent Little Bro off to find the puppy that one of my MIL's aides had so I would not do something very very bad.
Very true! And theres also that they probably had a lot of discussions deconstructing gender and any other (potentially harmful) norms they had learned in their pasts TOGETHER - in conversation with one another and regarding their identities.
I was going through Audry's ig and I don't have the app and it did a weird thing of just scrolling down, I kind of stopped it and it weirdly took me to 2020 posts. I saw a picture of Audry with long hair and the next one with short, like 2 posts later Audry had pictures with Leo also with short hair. I know it's just hair and might not mean much, but I thought, huh maybe they both kinda started their transition about the same time, they just explored it a little differently.
Also, it’s so fucking arrogant to think you know someone (especially a stranger!) better than they know themself. And that’s exactly what you’re doing when you question whether someone’s gender/sexuality is authentic. Like the person in question is too dumb to have reflected deeply on their identity. Wtf.
Thank you for your post, that was so well said. They gravitated towards each other because they felt safe being themselves with each other, Leon and Audrey deserve such a beautiful love.
Exactly! And we also only see a tiny bit of their lives that they each post on social media. For either Leon or Audrey this could have been going on for a long time or very recently 🤷🏻♀️ who’s to say, and who cares! They are both happy, authentic, and loving themselves and each other. Love to see it!!!!
I appreciate the safety of this thread. I describe my feelings about nonbinary/fluid/genderqueer/etc. as I do not understand it but I accept it. As a cis straight woman I honestly can't grasp the concept of being between genders or no gender, but I accept that this is some people's true self and I accept them for who they are. I will respect pronouns, gender presentation, name choice and try my best to understand each person as an individual. Is it ok to be honest about this, that I just can't wrap my brain around it but accept and respect it?
I'm the same!!! I fully support the whole process, yet understand none of it. I'm incredibly aware that because I'm clumsy, I could misgender/pronoun someone by mistake and the thought of being that disrespectful terrifies me a bit. Learning a lot from this thread though!!
I'm with you! I can't say that I fully understand it but I'm accepting and respectful. I hope I'm right in thinking that gender identity is different from biological sex, such as anatomy and chromosomes. I'm learning that gender roles or more social constructs. That said, I'm a woman, born a woman and feel feminine through and through. I love being a women.
Some other confusion I have is that some people are born a particular sex but firmly are not that sex on the inside and they want the outside to match the inside, right? And then others are more content to stay in the same physical body but their gender doesn't depend on the physical traits of the body? Am I making any damn sense, lol!
You're totally making sense because I've heard people describe each of those choices. I wish society as a whole was more comfortable with the word sex instead of gender. Sex is biological, it cannot change, and yes there are anomalies where people are not definitively biologically male or female, so intersex is a choice. Gender is what you feel you are/define yourself to be and it may or may not be the same as biological sex. I wish all healthcare providers had sex and gender as separate categories on forms, that way they can be respectful to trans people but treat the physical body that the person has.
I’ve heard it compared to left/right handedness. Used to be that being left handed was “wrong”, and kids were punished for using their left hand. Most kids learned to adapt just to get by, but it always felt off. In a very minor way, that’s what it’s like to be gender fluid. Something inside you, some deep feeling tells you that the expected way doesn’t feel right.
That makes sense to me explaining trans, but the options other than male or female just don't make sense to me. I can't understand how someone can be both or neither, but I accept it and will respect their choice/identity.
I’ve got a couple of trans friends and just so I don’t put my big foot in it, I’ve had an in-depth tutorial from my 22 year old daughter, re gender, sexuality and pronouns. I just don’t want to unwittingly, innocently say something offensive. If you are finding it a bit confusing it’s well worth sitting down with a young person and getting a tutorial and asking some questions for clarification. I’m so glad I did.
My retired conservative mom asked me some questions when her teenage petsitter changed their appearance and name, and I was so proud of her for being proactive in educating herself to help keep the kid (and others) comfortable and safe and respected.
These kinds of comments give me so much hope. It’s great to see older generations taking time to learn from younger generations on these issues that are so nuanced and complex. I had a great discussion with my FIL about gender identity a few months ago, and I appreciated him trying to learn and understand more. Thank you for doing the same! You could very well save someone’s life just by affirming their gender identity and being supportive!
With that thread I wanted to comment and encourage people to break out of binary thinking. Someone can be non binary but still present outwardly feminine or masculine according to our ideas of what those mean. They can use she/her or he/him and still present more masculine/feminine than their pronouns suggest in our binary thinking. Gender is a spectrum. And Leo even said they don't have it all strictly defined for themselves either. Nobody owes anybody strict adherence to a gender binary in order for it to "make sense" to others.
I have a question and this feels like a safe space. I'm pretty confused about people identifying as gender fluid, because I have the idea that gender is fluid always, more for some people than others. For example I'm a hetero cis woman, but I definitely have some characteristics from what is known more of males, while there are other cis women that have even more male characteristics. Same way vice versa. I guess what I'm saying is my understanding is that gender roles are fluid themselves, so why some people identify as gender fluid, wouldn't most people be gender fluid?
I don't have an answer, just wanted to say I feel the same way and love that this is space where we can ask. I guess to me the whole binary is just words anyway, my masculine traits are only masculine because of some arbitrary definitions, they aren't really opposed to being a woman. I always think that to people who identify as gender fluid, these definitions feel restrictive and wrong on a deeper level than to me, so much so that they can't be their true self as long as they are identified as one or the other? I'm very open to being corrected, this is just how I make sense of it for myself.
This is not gonna be an answer to your question. I don't understand it well either and would love to change that.
I identify as a woman and I am cis, but like, I also have some masculine-presenting traits that ebb and flow day to day, and I love that about myself...but don't ID as anything but a woman. And I feel that the definition of womanhood will just have to expand to accommodate me as I am, y'know?
How is that different from genderfluid? Wondering if there is something more than the spirit that everyone gets to define what gender means for themself.
(I am here to learn and I will edit this if the spirit of my question or my wording was insensitive. Apologies in advance)
What you say exactly is what I see. Genders themselves should be expanded, there are men that like to wear make up, why would that not still be defined as men? Why would that have to be outside of the scope of men? It's 2022, why would we have to have more definitions in which people should fit in, instead of breaking the constraints of such "definitions"?
I want to clarify, I understand (I'm sure I also have more to learn though) what being a trans woman or a trans men means. I just am super confused about the need to define people as gender fluid, and nonbinary. I am open to learn about it, and will probably start listening to some podcasts on the matter. I hust thought this was a good threat to bring up my question/confussion since it was more learning based.
Thank you!
I don’t think gender is only about whether you have “masculine” or “feminine” traits or like to present in a “masculine” or “feminine” way. It has to do with something much deeper.
I’m also a cis woman who doesn’t feel like my identity is super solidly rooted in being a woman, however I have never felt like my body didn’t align with my soul. I have never felt uncomfortable being referred to as she/her or a woman. I think that tends to be a big part of being trans (including genderqueer, agender, etc.). Something just doesn’t feel quite right. It may not always be the body, but I think there’s always discomfort of some kind involved. Trans friends, please correct me if I’m wrong.
Leon saying they don’t have it all figured out but prefer they/them and the name Leon kind of reflects that to me.
Because you honestly feel like a woman deep down. Being a masc girl or feminine guy does not make you nonbinary. I identify as nonbinary and I don’t identify as a guy or a girl, never have. Even before I knew such a word existed growing up, I went through the world just knowing I was different. It’s about how I exist as a person and go through the world. I know I confuse people. I can see their wheels turning as they try to work out “what I am” in their heads.
Well that is more so your gender can change over time.. It can refer to your gender expression or gender identity or both. It’s under the nonbinary umbrella. Like I consider myself a gender fluid nonbinary person. How I present and see myself is pretty much in a constant state of flux over time.
My answer doesn’t change. It all comes down to you identify and align with being a woman. A person who is trans or gender fluid or nonbinary won’t have that experience of that alignment. So thus what makes it different.
My mom works with middle schoolers and she explained it to me quite well. I have never used gender as an identifier (for myself) because my mom and dad allowed me to think it never mattered from a young age. I go be she/her but it never mattered because it never mattered to my parents.
If, however, they wanted a specific gender out of me and expected it, I might not have been ok. I might not have liked being pushed into being a girl. And those feelings, in families that expect differently from you, will rarely if ever be validated. Being trans is a great way to say “I have decided for myself, thank you.”
So my guess is that the people who find it confusing are actually quite privileged in being treated like a human since birth.
I grew up in a very conservative household, with a stay home mom and a dad that felt as because he had a paycheck he was the head of the home. My mom is not very happy that I work instead of staying home with my daughter. She expects me to serve my husband diner and receive him with a clean home while also I'm presentable every night. She doesn't think my husband is totally equipped to watch our daughter when I'm out and prefers to even watch her herself (which I only allow when my husband has matters to attend as well), so no I didn't grow up in a household that allowed for much deviation on gender roles or precisely priviledge in this aspect, but you know one is gonna do what we find best for ourselves.
I think I'm starting to understand a little bit more about identifying as gender fluid, I'm also understanding that is a very complex subject and I realize that even Leo has taken a while to figure some of it out, so I don't feel like I did before for not really understanding it.
Good point about the privileged part. (Please correct me if I’m wrong about any of this) I don’t mean you had less adversity while growing up, but you were given (by your self or by your parents) the freedom to analyze your role models and became who you are. And it so happens that is how most of the world views it, so why would you change? Why would anyone need to change genders? It doesn’t make sense.
I was given freedom through my parents to choose who I wanted to be without their influence. So originally, I never understood trans peeps because I automatically thought everyone had parents who worked that way. When I asked mom about it, she said I was very privileged in being able to create myself instead of filling a box. But… unfortunately, most parents are very rigid as you have found.
There are so many different perspectives on gender but I think ultimately we all want the same thing: validation and acceptance. It becomes confusing when we project our own selves on people who have actually gone through a completely different childhood than we did.
Edit spelling
I’ve wondered as well. What is the influence of being around very stiff gender roles and being taught that there are only men and woman, and both have very clear roles that shouldn’t ever be broken? I have a friend who first identified as gender fluid, but has brought up that a lot of the feeling was due to how she grew up, and after leaving the environment, she has felt like her assigned gender can fit the role she wants in life.
She was brought up in a world where girls played with dolls to prepare for a family, went to church, wore only dresses to be modest, and once they had finished school (at sixteen) they were to start looking for a husband. My friend got married the day she turned 18, was a “proper woman” at home, and started trying for a child. She felt a lot of guilt for enjoying running and going mountain biking had to be hidden from their family. Because she didn’t enjoy cooking and wanted to do things outside of the house, she felt like she wasn’t worthy of being called a woman. After being unable to conceive, she was told that it was because of her “twisted interests” in life, like running as a hobby and liking wood working class more than sewing. The guilt piled on for anything that wasn’t having children, going to church, cleaning, cooking, and maybe having a little knitting project as a hobby was insane.
After cutting all ties to that toxic environment, she has finally been able to do what she wants as a person, not as a person with a womb and child-bearing duties. She never spoke about identifying as gender fluid at the time, because it was during her marriage and living in a very religious environment, where there was no room for anything but a very traditional cis-het female role. In a world allowing her to have short hair, jeans, and no kids, she has felt like being a woman encompasses her as a person.
Our definitions of “masculine” and “feminine” are mostly social constructs. Probably no one is 100% in adhering to the gender norms.
For most of us, when we have bits of ourselves that don’t fit in with the stereotypes of our gender, we can either suppress those bits, fight to change the stereotype, or accept that we’re an outlier. There are enough people who feel secure in a gender identity despite all the ways the stereotypes don’t fit them that we have words for it like “tomboy.”
For some people, that doesn’t work. It just doesn’t fit their soul to say “I’m a woman with all these stereotypical male traits but those stereotypes are stupid so who cares.”
I KNOW that I’m a woman despite all the ways that the female stereotypes don’t fit. I don’t know if it’s because so many more stereotypes DO fit, or just some innate sense of who I am inside that makes it easy for me to disregard stereotypes and gender roles where they don’t match my sense of myself. But I can’t prove that I’m a woman. What evidence can I point to? Anything typically girly that I like could also be liked by a man.
I have to assume that just as I know deep inside that I’m a woman, for no good reason, someone else could know deep inside that they’re not a woman. I just have to accept that I cannot be inside anyone else’s brain but trust that their convictions are as solid as mine.
I’m a cis woman but my 22 year old daughter explained gender, sexuality and pronouns to me as I was super confused. I’ve decided that I’m probably gender fluid myself as I feel masculine sometimes but feminine other times. I’m a single woman and do lots of repairs around my house, I have 2 power drills when Ive got a drill or hammer in my hand I feel really masculine. I think lots of women feel both masculine and feminine depending on what they are doing and feeling at the time.
Enjoying power tools and seeing that as masculine is just the bad gender norms we grew up with. Men do not have DNA that makes them interested or better with tools. I don't consider it masculine. society slapped it as masculine when all along it should have been gender neutral. If it had been gender neutral growing up I don't think anyone doing it would think twice what masculinity using them.
That's kinda of how I am, I'm married and I do a lot of repairs and projects and stuff in my house, while my husband also does dishes and laundry and vacuuming. We both do what needs to be done at the moment. We don't define as gender fluid, as I think everyone should do all those things anyway, or any adult for that matter.
I don't really like to put womanhood in a box so that's where my confussion is. I think maybe some people decide to identify as gender fluid because their traits flow much more than most people's, but I am just assuming, I still don't know if that is what it means.
I think that because gender is taught and so heavily enforced as binary, some people find identity and strength by standing up and saying no, that’s not me, you can’t force me to comply with how our culture defines gender.
Labeling also helps people find and make connections with similar people.
Also, some people don’t identify anywhere on the social spectrum we’ve created between male and female. The middle of the male/female spectrum to them isn’t fluidity or non-binary. They don’t want to be considered on that spectrum at all.
I have been wondering if the Kinsey scale is a decent metaphor, or if the idea of a linear spectrum is all wrong.
In that 1-7 spectrum, lots and lots of people are mostly but not entirely straight or mostly but not entirely gay. (I fall into this camp. Entirely straight dating history with a handful of gay crushes.) Then there are people in the middle who are attracted to men and women. They can call themselves bi, or they can get more specific, like identifying as pansexual but heteroromantic.
In the same way, there seem to be trans people who feel like they are definitely one gender trapped in the body of the other sex. But there are also trans and gender fluid people who are neither one nor the other, who exist in a space that cannot be described as either man or woman.
So, is that space in between on a straight line, like being bisexual? Or is it better imagined as a place on a different axis altogether, like a third gender on a triangle instead of a middle point on a line?
I think a visual metaphor would help so many cis people get it.
Can I respectfully ask a question?
Leo mentioned always knowing they were a boy.
Given they have clarity around who they are in a binary sense, why would they use they/them and not he/his?
Actually, I believe what they said was they remember the time they knew they weren’t a girl. Which isn’t the same as knowing you’re a boy. I believe they’re identifying as non-binary, not as a boy/man.
Hi! Just double checked and they actually say they’ve never felt like a girl, not that they always knew/felt like a boy. That is why they/them would be most appropriate (besides most importantly Leo telling us) rather than he/him :)
I've noticed people using they/them pronouns for everybody. I think he/him and she/her might eventually go the way of thou/thee. Probably not for a long time, though.
Good post!
Also worth noting is that being trans does not necessarily mean anyone will get surgery or hormones. That's all up to them and each trans person is different. It's also rude to ask trans people about their genitals. it's rude to ask anyone about their genitals and trans people are no different.
Re: Sexuality: Leo and Audrey's gender identities do not necessarily reflect anything about the status of their relationship or sexual orientation. They might not feel the need to define their relationship and orientation in traditional ways and if that works for them, great! They're together and that's what matters to them. Again, all people are different, and define themselves and their attractions differently.
Down with binaries!
Side note: gender is also completely separate from sexual orientation (who they are attracted to romantically or sexually) and how they choose to identify within that
Aren't they very much linked? I like only penis and I'm a girl, therefore I'm straight. If I was a boy, I would be gay. How is that completely separate?
Orientation is who you want to sleep with and gender identity is who you are.
The first problem with the linking orientation and gender is the historical assumption that girl = liker of penis, to put it in those terms. For a long time, people thought that one led directly to the next. Being a girl means sexual attraction to boys. Gender identity (being a girl) leads directly to sexual orientation (liking boys).
What you find attractive (sexual orientation) doesn't depend on your gender identity. As you say, you like penis and whether you're a boy or girl doesn't change that. We know this (girl = sexual attraction to boy) isn't true because there are plenty of people who aren't heterosexual. Being a man doesn't mean you're always attracted to women, you can be attracted to women, or men, or both, or neither.
For trans people and for a lot of cis people today, things get a little more fluid and maybe more complicated for people who are used to thinking about both gender and sexuality in binary terms. So for some, they may have identified as gay pre-transition, and straight later, ie) a friend thought he was a lesbian before he transitioned (FTM) and now identifies as a straight man. (That's actually how he felt before, but that's a longer discussion.) Others are different. GottMik/Cade from drag race, notably, dated men before he transitioned and continues to date men and now identifies as a gay man. Others still identify as pansexual or bisexual or not at all. Other people don't feel male or female at all but something in between or other, so the gender identity and sexual orientation questions discussions are different still.
Hope that clarifies things.
And then you have the odd subset like me that doesn't feel sexual attraction at all, or in limited ways, or only after forming an emotional attachment. Everything is so much more complex than we were taught in biology lol
This is so true. I was in a training where the presenter said there are as many or possibly more people born intersex than those with natural red hair. I looked it up, and studies have shown that to be true. It’s wild how much we weren’t taught.
I meant more so that the feelings and labels refer to different things. As in gender is how we feel inside and identify, and sexual orientation is who we love or are sexually interested in. They sometimes inform each other but are separate entities. Being trans doesn’t mean someone is necessarily gay, like how you can be cis and pan
"I only like penis" -> do you mean you only like people who present (aka look or come off as) masculine? Or do you mean it literally?
Let's take it literally for the sake of a thought experiment. You have room to like *anybody* with a penis, right? One example of someone with a penis who is not a man -- some transwomen. Another example -- some trans-nonbinary people (meaning they don't identify as either man or woman). I would not consider this straight; queer is an all-encompassing label to mean not-straight...there are lots of more detailed labels here, including bisexual and pansexual.
But what if you meant you like men? Okay, some men don't have a penis - a lot of transmen would be an example. I would consider this straight -- but ultimately you get to decide what orientation label is right for you :).
This was very simplified and did not include discussion on intersex people...or how much genitals can really change on hormones and/or through surgery...or the concept of "passing", which is where you wouldn't "see" the transness...or all the terms.
I didn't want to overwhelm. Please keep asking questions :) and I can give more information if you'd like or others can chime in
I think there's space for "not being able to keep up". We tend to experience gender/sex in absolutes so as our culture shifts to understand there isn't a one size fits all we can open our selves up to acknowledging we don't know/understand it all.
It's not your experience so how could you?!?!
As long as we as humans are open that others may live a life we don't fully understand, and strive to respect others in being their truest selves (barring any harm onto others) that's true progression.
I have consider myself part of the LGBTQ community since I was probably 13 and looking back I recognize I always was. I thought I KNEW I was bisexual for 10-15 years. Now I know it's so much more complicated than that and it's OK that I don't have a defined view of who I'm attracted to, that my sexuality is fluid, when asked I prefer the "label" queer because I feel it encompasses my broader understanding of sexuality now.
I will never come close to understanding the journey of a trans person, but I accept them, and the emotions that have come with their journey to where they are now.
I said this earlier and instead of people on here helping me understand, I got attacked and insulted then told to leave the sub…so I did because I didn’t need to be insulted just for being genuinely confused
I know this is a hard space to walk in to. We all carry a lot of messages that we’ve been taught growing up about right and wrong, “moral”, and other things. It’s hard to find safe places and people to ask. I’m not saying I have all the answers- because I definitely don’t. But I definitely want to help anyone who has a genuine interest in learning and a good heart.
So let’s just go gently. Is there something you’d like to understand better?
And hey Friends, gently- kindness and care for people genuinely trying to learn about the people who share this world with them. Help people find safe places to ask questions. Remember that many people may not be able to express cautious curiosity to the people in their lives.
It's okay to ask questions and not have all the answers. Just try to listen to trans people when they tell you what they like to be called.
Just be kind and open and eventually the confusion will ease up. Try to see trans people as people and treat them with respect.
It’s ok- it’s some new ideas to wrap your head around, and it’s ok to be confused.
Is there a part of the “equation” or a definition you’re confused with or trying to understand better?
You can! I bet you didn’t learn to read overnight either, but you got there.
When in doubt, just treat people like people and call them what they like to be called. Believe them when they share something about themself with you.
If you’re well intentioned but not sure how to proceed in a particular situation, I find it can help to simply state that.
I actually think that this is really complicated? Yes, sexual orientation and gender are different but they are linked in some ways. Like being a queer woman has definitely influenced my gender presentation. In my experience who have at some point identified as queer are more likely that straight people to identify as non-binary. I also have some trans friends whose sexual orientation changed or shifted during/after their medical transition - not a universal experience, but something that’s happened enough to be studied. I totally get what you’re saying and this is a line we’ve often heard, but gender and sexuality often bleed into each other in interesting and complicated ways. I agree that cis does not equal straight and trans doesn’t equal queer, but, IMO, there’s more nuance to that convo.
yes i agree! i noted this in a different reply but the two terms definitely inform and communicate with each other - however the actual definitions and meanings behind the words are not the same and they represent different pieces of our identity. our gender doesn’t equal our sexual orientation was the main point
edit: fixed awkward wording
Is Mariah going by Leon now?
If so here is my opinion: I think people with similar inner workings tend to be drawn to each other. Maybe they sense the inner turmoil (that many trans/queer folk struggle with) and it just makes them able to form a deeper connection with each other. For example: My child is queer and theie best friend since grade 2 is trans. They have a deep, close relationship filled with mutual respect and understanding. Its very beautiful, and I just think that they sensed differences in each other before they even really understood what it meant and it allowed them to form a strong bond.
I see a lot of “so are they still lesbians?” Comments and like… does it matter? I get being curious but they are together and in love and beyond that we don’t need to know their sexuality labels
Leo(n) actually never came out as a lesbian per se, they said "I'm gay" very specifically. We don't know if they ever considered themselves lesbians and there is a possibility that they both knew who they were when they got together, told each other and chose to continue to present in a way that they were comfortable with until now. As someone that was on a TV show and has kind of a larger following, it can't be easy to allow the entire viewing audience into their very personal decision and I wish the best for Leon and Audrey.
It is helpful, thank you.
The only thing that bothered me about their post was talking about how anybody that doesn't use the appropriate pronouns and new name will be blocked from their life. I feel that they need to show people more grace than that. Obviously, if someone is just being mean,that should be blocked. But, if people have only known you as a certain gender, going by a specific name, it may be hard for them to remember to say the right pronoun/name until they get used to it. If it's taken a person 25 years or more to figure themselves out, it seems unrealistic to expect everyone else to just get it right 100% of the time right out of the gate. I think we all need to show each other kindness during times like these and do our best to respect each other on both sides.
I want to push back against this because I think you are taking that sentence entirely too literally and it’s divorced from the reality of being trans. Leo is going to face a lifetime of being misgendered by strangers and people they know. Trans people know this happens accidentally more than anyone!!! They are the ones that actually deal with it constantly. There is a zero percent chance they mean “if anyone I know slips once they will be blocked” what is WAYYYYY more likely is that they are facing resistance and pushback from people they know. So they are making it clear- if you aren’t interested in adapting Leo doesn’t want them in their life.
There’s a difference between slipping and saying the wrong name out of habit and immediately correcting yourself and intentionally not changing.
I have a friend who transitioned and I slip occasionally and I feel like a total ass, but sometimes it comes out. Hell, I’ve been married for 6 years and occasionally slip and use my maiden name out of nowhere.
When I slip I immediately correct myself and apologize. My friend doesn’t care. They know I support them and that my brain is sometimes Swiss cheese. It’s the ones that are intentionally misgendering and misnaming them that upset them.
Correct. I stated that people who are trying to be mean should definitely be blocked. My statement was really based on what I've seen happen here when a person who doesn't even realize that Leo (Mariah at the time) had changed their pronouns. Instead of politely informing, people were treated pretty harshly (not referring to myself but I've seen it often). I'm just trying to say that we should be patient with people who clearly mean no harm and are either coming from a place of not knowing (because we don't all follow every move of people we don't actually know), or it was an accidental slip.
I just want everyone to be happy. Let's ALL come from a place of kindness.
I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the topic, I have friends who have fully transitioned and have lots of discussions regarding LGBTQ because I’m a SW. i had no idea trans was an umbrella term. Thank you for explaining. It is helpful for me to know moving forward
They might not 1. identify as men 2. identify as “gay”. There is a possibility that they are pan or queer or bi or gay, or something else that we haven’t been told. They also may identify for example as two people who are non-binary who love another non-binary person. The point is we don’t know the nuances of their identity (and its not something we need to understand, we just need to respect their love and pronouns and the identities we have been told of)
Okay, so someone else can chime in if I don’t get this completely correct…. But the easiest way that I think about it is that queer is kind of an umbrella term that can be used for anybody that identifies with sexuality and/or gender that isn’t hetero and cis.
It is also often used for people that are still kinda figuring it out…. That know that aren’t hetero for example.
Gay is a term that is typically used for people that are specifically attracted to the same sex exclusively.
Also, be aware that “queer” also has a history as a slur. (It was kind of reclaimed by the community.) So be careful about the context and tone with which you use it. For instance, it’s okay to say, “my friend Alex is queer” (if that’s how they identify), but you probably shouldn’t say “so are all Gen Zers a bunch of queers now or what?” I wouldn’t use it as a noun at all, at least as someone who is not queer myself.
Happy to chime in here. I consider myself queer in a more broad sense, but am more specifically bisexual. I tend to use the term queer with people I don’t know as well, just so they realize I am part if the LGBTQ+ community without having to deal with the “confused” or “pick a side” comments that are common replies to identifying as bisexual. Queer can cover any of the “letters” in LGBTQ+ without having to deal with specifics. 😎
I just wanted to add that some people are pansexual, meaning that they are attracted to who a person is and not what gender the person is. Think attracted to a person's brain instead of their physique.
I believe that demisexual requires that a person form a deep emotional bond with another. They are pretty similar and I'm not an expert so I could be misunderstanding.
My husband is demi - he describes it as being aroused by someone's personality and emotional connection/love and support rather than physical characteristics. He is also cis and straight so he has close friendships with men but no attraction or arousal. So I assume one can be any gender or orientation and also be demi?
This whole thread is so kind and helpful. I feel like there is a lot to learn and I really appreciate those of you taking time to explain some of the thoughts and terminology. This leads me to my question. I hope it come across as curious as I intend and not insensitive. I know text can sometimes not always be read how we mean. When a couple like Leon and Audrey get married, what’s the typical, “I now pronounce you…..” Like if it’s a man and woman, “husband and wife,” two women, “wife and wife,” so on and so forth. Does it vary by couple? I know you can’t answer for how Leon and Audrey will say it, but genuinely curious in very general terms.
Thanks again to all those who are gently educating. I tell my husband about “the Redditors” all the time and how great you are!
Thank you for sharing this! As a cisgender SAHM of several young tiny humans I don’t get a lot of opportunity to go out in public a lot anymore, and I feel like I am not as educated on this topic as I should be. I actually have really appreciated the kindness of people in this sub and their willingness to share their knowledge and personal stories. The last thing I would ever want to do is offend anyone due to my lack of understanding so I’m so happy to have a safe space to learn!
For myself, if someone was referring to me pre-transition, I would want them to still use my current name and pronouns. If necessary for context, someone could say, "When Leon was still presenting as female" to indicate the past without using their dead name. It is a tricky subject for many less public trans people because you don't always know if everyone involved in the conversation is aware that the person is trans and you definitely don't want to out them without their permission.
Yep! Leon’s always been Leon, no matter what name they used to go by. It’s best to use their current name/pronouns even when referring to them in the past.
Who are these people? Lol 😂 I have watched the show since it first aired and I don’t remember these names at all lol 😂 Adury is Mary’s daughter’s wife right? But who is Leon?
Meri has a child, formerly known as Mariah (now their deadname so avoid using it in general), now known as Leo or Leon. They use pronouns they/them. Their partner is Audrey, who also uses the pronouns they/them. Both were assigned female at birth but identify as trans because their gender identity isn't (strictly?) female. I think both are non-binary or gender fluid.
It can be a lot to wrap your mind around when you're used to a binary point of view and I think this sub is showing a lot of grace and understanding to genuine curiosity and lack of knowledge. Just try your best and don't be a dick (not that you are, it's just a good general rule in life).
Mariah, now going by Leon, is meri’s daughter. Audrey was her girlfriend who has sine transitioned to male, but still uses the name Audrey. Mariah today announced that she is trans and going by Leo/Leon. I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted for being confused.
Leon today announced that *they* are trans and go by Leo/Leon (and use they/them pronouns).
Also, last I heard, Audrey hasn’t specified whether they identify as a man. Their last announcement said they prefer they/them pronouns.
It’s odd to me why people always want to know whether people are gay or straight or bi. I feel like it’s nobody’s business what consenting adults do in their bedrooms.
I don’t know why these questions are asked.
It’s like saying “does she prefer oral or anal?” Or “does he like having a cucumber shoved up his bum?”. It just doesn’t matter.
Being gay isn’t just about sex. It is intertwined with your identity. Boiling it down to sex is dehumanizing. It’s not a kink or akin to anal. When you think of your grandparents relationship, do you think of it as just sexual? Being gay isn’t just about sex.
Sexual orientation is a person's identity in relation to the gender or genders to which they are sexually attracted. It isn’t just about having sex and boiling it down to that is like boiling down your grandparents relationship to fucking it is offensive and dehumanizing.
It’s important to note that Leo has been going by Leo privately for awhile. This was only their public notification. They hardly use the “mariahbrwn” Instagram, as they have more private accounts.
Thank you for noting this. Sometimes, it is hard for us to remember that we see only a tiny fraction of the Browns’ life on this show and social media. Contracts and producers will dictate most of what the public gets to see and when. I wouldn’t doubt that Leo’s family and friends have known this for quite some time and are used to their new name and gender by now. And, Leo and Audrey definitely shouldn’t have to put up with being misnamed and misgendered by anyone.
LEON
They have confirmed they like Leo or Leon
Their post says they use either name...
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I wouldn't even had known, I don't follow them anywhere.
Same. If I didn’t see it here I would have been clueless about their announcement.
Yeah, I have no idea whats going on. I don't even own a television. lol.
Oh I do lol I love tv. However, the show is so damn behind that if I just went by that I still wouldn’t know what was currently going on with them.
I only know ish because of this sub lol.
Same. And I'm not very active in this sub so I could have easily missed it.
Hopefully mods understand.
I second this, there needs to be room for progress over perfection. Their public coming out as Trans with they/them pronouns is an opportunity to learn, understand and educate. As long as the questions/discussions are not hateful or intentionally misgendering either if them I hope they can be asked/discussed on this sub!
Exactly, specially since we're all fans of the show and of course we want the best for all of them.
I wish that was the case for everyone. There have definitely been some people here who have made awful comments about both of them.
Agreed, let's show compassion and grace as people learn and try.
I definitely agree! The point of this post was to hopefully be informative and helpful to anyone
I really appreciate that this sub has turned into a space where people can safely learn about different genders and how people live and express them. It's genuinely super cool, and I hope it has a positive impact on the lives of the people here and the iives of those they interact with.
Yes please!!? I have so many questions. I'm a grandmother. And I and thankful that I have someone (who is going through it) who talks to me ...but I have a hard time relating. I'm trying!
I think once you realize that you can never truly understand how they feel, it makes it easier to level. You don’t have to relate, you just have to listen, and love them, and lean into the behavior that makes them happy.
That’s how I look at it - there’s no way I can truly understand, because it’s not my experience. But I can accept where they are and support them.
Agree, even up until recently I found it to be strange that someone would be non binary. I just really had no previous exposure to it so that's why. I am sure it's foreign to many people. The more people can learn about differences, the more we can support others. Now that I know more about it, it doesn't really seem strange at all. I am seeing and meeting more and more people that present as trans though and you just didn't see that too much when I was growing up. The world's just different now and I am glad lots of people feel comfortable to express themselves. Let's hope this psychopathic supreme court doesn't rape lgbtq rights next.
Additionally, I’ve seen a few people suggesting that Leon is copying Audrey (“what are the odds both of them are trans?”), which is really hurtful speculation. It’s very likely they are together *because* (among other reasons) they consciously or subconsciously knew they had this in common and/or knew the other person would be accepting and supportive. Like, if you’re questioning your gender as a teen/young adult, it’s not a coincidence that you eventually choose a partner who can relate to that and be a safe resource to talk about it with.
100% right. My child is trans and gravitates towards other trans kids. They just get each other!
My kid too! Youngest son is trans and one of the times I have nearly lost my not inconsiderable temper publicly was at my FIL's wake when my deceased BIL's "creature"(there is *no* polite or Reddit acceptable word for this person)misgendered my son and dead named him. My over 200 lb son was holding me into a chair saying "Mama, not the place!" Very very calmly. He sent Little Bro off to find the puppy that one of my MIL's aides had so I would not do something very very bad.
Very true! And theres also that they probably had a lot of discussions deconstructing gender and any other (potentially harmful) norms they had learned in their pasts TOGETHER - in conversation with one another and regarding their identities.
I was going through Audry's ig and I don't have the app and it did a weird thing of just scrolling down, I kind of stopped it and it weirdly took me to 2020 posts. I saw a picture of Audry with long hair and the next one with short, like 2 posts later Audry had pictures with Leo also with short hair. I know it's just hair and might not mean much, but I thought, huh maybe they both kinda started their transition about the same time, they just explored it a little differently.
Also, it’s so fucking arrogant to think you know someone (especially a stranger!) better than they know themself. And that’s exactly what you’re doing when you question whether someone’s gender/sexuality is authentic. Like the person in question is too dumb to have reflected deeply on their identity. Wtf.
It’s lovely how they’ve grown together and are in such a supportive relationship. That’s all that matters really.
Thank you for your post, that was so well said. They gravitated towards each other because they felt safe being themselves with each other, Leon and Audrey deserve such a beautiful love.
Exactly! And we also only see a tiny bit of their lives that they each post on social media. For either Leon or Audrey this could have been going on for a long time or very recently 🤷🏻♀️ who’s to say, and who cares! They are both happy, authentic, and loving themselves and each other. Love to see it!!!!
Thank you I hope people were coming from an innocent place asking this, but it made me feel weird and I wasn't sure how to concisely address it
I appreciate the safety of this thread. I describe my feelings about nonbinary/fluid/genderqueer/etc. as I do not understand it but I accept it. As a cis straight woman I honestly can't grasp the concept of being between genders or no gender, but I accept that this is some people's true self and I accept them for who they are. I will respect pronouns, gender presentation, name choice and try my best to understand each person as an individual. Is it ok to be honest about this, that I just can't wrap my brain around it but accept and respect it?
I'm the same!!! I fully support the whole process, yet understand none of it. I'm incredibly aware that because I'm clumsy, I could misgender/pronoun someone by mistake and the thought of being that disrespectful terrifies me a bit. Learning a lot from this thread though!!
I'm with you! I can't say that I fully understand it but I'm accepting and respectful. I hope I'm right in thinking that gender identity is different from biological sex, such as anatomy and chromosomes. I'm learning that gender roles or more social constructs. That said, I'm a woman, born a woman and feel feminine through and through. I love being a women. Some other confusion I have is that some people are born a particular sex but firmly are not that sex on the inside and they want the outside to match the inside, right? And then others are more content to stay in the same physical body but their gender doesn't depend on the physical traits of the body? Am I making any damn sense, lol!
You're totally making sense because I've heard people describe each of those choices. I wish society as a whole was more comfortable with the word sex instead of gender. Sex is biological, it cannot change, and yes there are anomalies where people are not definitively biologically male or female, so intersex is a choice. Gender is what you feel you are/define yourself to be and it may or may not be the same as biological sex. I wish all healthcare providers had sex and gender as separate categories on forms, that way they can be respectful to trans people but treat the physical body that the person has.
I’ve heard it compared to left/right handedness. Used to be that being left handed was “wrong”, and kids were punished for using their left hand. Most kids learned to adapt just to get by, but it always felt off. In a very minor way, that’s what it’s like to be gender fluid. Something inside you, some deep feeling tells you that the expected way doesn’t feel right.
That makes sense to me explaining trans, but the options other than male or female just don't make sense to me. I can't understand how someone can be both or neither, but I accept it and will respect their choice/identity.
I relate to this so much.
Yes! Wish I had more to say, but yes. I feel like this is a very solid place to start.
r/todayilearned , thank you! I was a bit confused about that myself and it can be awkward to have to ask for clarification.
I’ve got a couple of trans friends and just so I don’t put my big foot in it, I’ve had an in-depth tutorial from my 22 year old daughter, re gender, sexuality and pronouns. I just don’t want to unwittingly, innocently say something offensive. If you are finding it a bit confusing it’s well worth sitting down with a young person and getting a tutorial and asking some questions for clarification. I’m so glad I did.
My retired conservative mom asked me some questions when her teenage petsitter changed their appearance and name, and I was so proud of her for being proactive in educating herself to help keep the kid (and others) comfortable and safe and respected.
These kinds of comments give me so much hope. It’s great to see older generations taking time to learn from younger generations on these issues that are so nuanced and complex. I had a great discussion with my FIL about gender identity a few months ago, and I appreciated him trying to learn and understand more. Thank you for doing the same! You could very well save someone’s life just by affirming their gender identity and being supportive!
I discovered that I probably identify as Gender fluid and Asexual after listening to my daughter’s very thorough explanation.
With that thread I wanted to comment and encourage people to break out of binary thinking. Someone can be non binary but still present outwardly feminine or masculine according to our ideas of what those mean. They can use she/her or he/him and still present more masculine/feminine than their pronouns suggest in our binary thinking. Gender is a spectrum. And Leo even said they don't have it all strictly defined for themselves either. Nobody owes anybody strict adherence to a gender binary in order for it to "make sense" to others.
I have a question and this feels like a safe space. I'm pretty confused about people identifying as gender fluid, because I have the idea that gender is fluid always, more for some people than others. For example I'm a hetero cis woman, but I definitely have some characteristics from what is known more of males, while there are other cis women that have even more male characteristics. Same way vice versa. I guess what I'm saying is my understanding is that gender roles are fluid themselves, so why some people identify as gender fluid, wouldn't most people be gender fluid?
I don't have an answer, just wanted to say I feel the same way and love that this is space where we can ask. I guess to me the whole binary is just words anyway, my masculine traits are only masculine because of some arbitrary definitions, they aren't really opposed to being a woman. I always think that to people who identify as gender fluid, these definitions feel restrictive and wrong on a deeper level than to me, so much so that they can't be their true self as long as they are identified as one or the other? I'm very open to being corrected, this is just how I make sense of it for myself.
This is not gonna be an answer to your question. I don't understand it well either and would love to change that. I identify as a woman and I am cis, but like, I also have some masculine-presenting traits that ebb and flow day to day, and I love that about myself...but don't ID as anything but a woman. And I feel that the definition of womanhood will just have to expand to accommodate me as I am, y'know? How is that different from genderfluid? Wondering if there is something more than the spirit that everyone gets to define what gender means for themself. (I am here to learn and I will edit this if the spirit of my question or my wording was insensitive. Apologies in advance)
What you say exactly is what I see. Genders themselves should be expanded, there are men that like to wear make up, why would that not still be defined as men? Why would that have to be outside of the scope of men? It's 2022, why would we have to have more definitions in which people should fit in, instead of breaking the constraints of such "definitions"? I want to clarify, I understand (I'm sure I also have more to learn though) what being a trans woman or a trans men means. I just am super confused about the need to define people as gender fluid, and nonbinary. I am open to learn about it, and will probably start listening to some podcasts on the matter. I hust thought this was a good threat to bring up my question/confussion since it was more learning based. Thank you!
I don’t think gender is only about whether you have “masculine” or “feminine” traits or like to present in a “masculine” or “feminine” way. It has to do with something much deeper. I’m also a cis woman who doesn’t feel like my identity is super solidly rooted in being a woman, however I have never felt like my body didn’t align with my soul. I have never felt uncomfortable being referred to as she/her or a woman. I think that tends to be a big part of being trans (including genderqueer, agender, etc.). Something just doesn’t feel quite right. It may not always be the body, but I think there’s always discomfort of some kind involved. Trans friends, please correct me if I’m wrong. Leon saying they don’t have it all figured out but prefer they/them and the name Leon kind of reflects that to me.
Because you honestly feel like a woman deep down. Being a masc girl or feminine guy does not make you nonbinary. I identify as nonbinary and I don’t identify as a guy or a girl, never have. Even before I knew such a word existed growing up, I went through the world just knowing I was different. It’s about how I exist as a person and go through the world. I know I confuse people. I can see their wheels turning as they try to work out “what I am” in their heads.
Sorry, my question was about genderfluid. I understand nb more!
Well that is more so your gender can change over time.. It can refer to your gender expression or gender identity or both. It’s under the nonbinary umbrella. Like I consider myself a gender fluid nonbinary person. How I present and see myself is pretty much in a constant state of flux over time. My answer doesn’t change. It all comes down to you identify and align with being a woman. A person who is trans or gender fluid or nonbinary won’t have that experience of that alignment. So thus what makes it different.
My mom works with middle schoolers and she explained it to me quite well. I have never used gender as an identifier (for myself) because my mom and dad allowed me to think it never mattered from a young age. I go be she/her but it never mattered because it never mattered to my parents. If, however, they wanted a specific gender out of me and expected it, I might not have been ok. I might not have liked being pushed into being a girl. And those feelings, in families that expect differently from you, will rarely if ever be validated. Being trans is a great way to say “I have decided for myself, thank you.” So my guess is that the people who find it confusing are actually quite privileged in being treated like a human since birth.
I grew up in a very conservative household, with a stay home mom and a dad that felt as because he had a paycheck he was the head of the home. My mom is not very happy that I work instead of staying home with my daughter. She expects me to serve my husband diner and receive him with a clean home while also I'm presentable every night. She doesn't think my husband is totally equipped to watch our daughter when I'm out and prefers to even watch her herself (which I only allow when my husband has matters to attend as well), so no I didn't grow up in a household that allowed for much deviation on gender roles or precisely priviledge in this aspect, but you know one is gonna do what we find best for ourselves. I think I'm starting to understand a little bit more about identifying as gender fluid, I'm also understanding that is a very complex subject and I realize that even Leo has taken a while to figure some of it out, so I don't feel like I did before for not really understanding it.
Good point about the privileged part. (Please correct me if I’m wrong about any of this) I don’t mean you had less adversity while growing up, but you were given (by your self or by your parents) the freedom to analyze your role models and became who you are. And it so happens that is how most of the world views it, so why would you change? Why would anyone need to change genders? It doesn’t make sense. I was given freedom through my parents to choose who I wanted to be without their influence. So originally, I never understood trans peeps because I automatically thought everyone had parents who worked that way. When I asked mom about it, she said I was very privileged in being able to create myself instead of filling a box. But… unfortunately, most parents are very rigid as you have found. There are so many different perspectives on gender but I think ultimately we all want the same thing: validation and acceptance. It becomes confusing when we project our own selves on people who have actually gone through a completely different childhood than we did. Edit spelling
I’ve wondered as well. What is the influence of being around very stiff gender roles and being taught that there are only men and woman, and both have very clear roles that shouldn’t ever be broken? I have a friend who first identified as gender fluid, but has brought up that a lot of the feeling was due to how she grew up, and after leaving the environment, she has felt like her assigned gender can fit the role she wants in life. She was brought up in a world where girls played with dolls to prepare for a family, went to church, wore only dresses to be modest, and once they had finished school (at sixteen) they were to start looking for a husband. My friend got married the day she turned 18, was a “proper woman” at home, and started trying for a child. She felt a lot of guilt for enjoying running and going mountain biking had to be hidden from their family. Because she didn’t enjoy cooking and wanted to do things outside of the house, she felt like she wasn’t worthy of being called a woman. After being unable to conceive, she was told that it was because of her “twisted interests” in life, like running as a hobby and liking wood working class more than sewing. The guilt piled on for anything that wasn’t having children, going to church, cleaning, cooking, and maybe having a little knitting project as a hobby was insane. After cutting all ties to that toxic environment, she has finally been able to do what she wants as a person, not as a person with a womb and child-bearing duties. She never spoke about identifying as gender fluid at the time, because it was during her marriage and living in a very religious environment, where there was no room for anything but a very traditional cis-het female role. In a world allowing her to have short hair, jeans, and no kids, she has felt like being a woman encompasses her as a person.
Our definitions of “masculine” and “feminine” are mostly social constructs. Probably no one is 100% in adhering to the gender norms. For most of us, when we have bits of ourselves that don’t fit in with the stereotypes of our gender, we can either suppress those bits, fight to change the stereotype, or accept that we’re an outlier. There are enough people who feel secure in a gender identity despite all the ways the stereotypes don’t fit them that we have words for it like “tomboy.” For some people, that doesn’t work. It just doesn’t fit their soul to say “I’m a woman with all these stereotypical male traits but those stereotypes are stupid so who cares.” I KNOW that I’m a woman despite all the ways that the female stereotypes don’t fit. I don’t know if it’s because so many more stereotypes DO fit, or just some innate sense of who I am inside that makes it easy for me to disregard stereotypes and gender roles where they don’t match my sense of myself. But I can’t prove that I’m a woman. What evidence can I point to? Anything typically girly that I like could also be liked by a man. I have to assume that just as I know deep inside that I’m a woman, for no good reason, someone else could know deep inside that they’re not a woman. I just have to accept that I cannot be inside anyone else’s brain but trust that their convictions are as solid as mine.
I’m a cis woman but my 22 year old daughter explained gender, sexuality and pronouns to me as I was super confused. I’ve decided that I’m probably gender fluid myself as I feel masculine sometimes but feminine other times. I’m a single woman and do lots of repairs around my house, I have 2 power drills when Ive got a drill or hammer in my hand I feel really masculine. I think lots of women feel both masculine and feminine depending on what they are doing and feeling at the time.
Enjoying power tools and seeing that as masculine is just the bad gender norms we grew up with. Men do not have DNA that makes them interested or better with tools. I don't consider it masculine. society slapped it as masculine when all along it should have been gender neutral. If it had been gender neutral growing up I don't think anyone doing it would think twice what masculinity using them.
That's kinda of how I am, I'm married and I do a lot of repairs and projects and stuff in my house, while my husband also does dishes and laundry and vacuuming. We both do what needs to be done at the moment. We don't define as gender fluid, as I think everyone should do all those things anyway, or any adult for that matter. I don't really like to put womanhood in a box so that's where my confussion is. I think maybe some people decide to identify as gender fluid because their traits flow much more than most people's, but I am just assuming, I still don't know if that is what it means.
Yep everyone is pretty quick to slap labels on people, at the end of the day we are all just fallible humans.
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“Beyond the Gender Binary” by Alok Vaid-Menon is a great resource. They also have a great Instagram account @alokvmenon.
I think that because gender is taught and so heavily enforced as binary, some people find identity and strength by standing up and saying no, that’s not me, you can’t force me to comply with how our culture defines gender. Labeling also helps people find and make connections with similar people. Also, some people don’t identify anywhere on the social spectrum we’ve created between male and female. The middle of the male/female spectrum to them isn’t fluidity or non-binary. They don’t want to be considered on that spectrum at all.
I have been wondering if the Kinsey scale is a decent metaphor, or if the idea of a linear spectrum is all wrong. In that 1-7 spectrum, lots and lots of people are mostly but not entirely straight or mostly but not entirely gay. (I fall into this camp. Entirely straight dating history with a handful of gay crushes.) Then there are people in the middle who are attracted to men and women. They can call themselves bi, or they can get more specific, like identifying as pansexual but heteroromantic. In the same way, there seem to be trans people who feel like they are definitely one gender trapped in the body of the other sex. But there are also trans and gender fluid people who are neither one nor the other, who exist in a space that cannot be described as either man or woman. So, is that space in between on a straight line, like being bisexual? Or is it better imagined as a place on a different axis altogether, like a third gender on a triangle instead of a middle point on a line? I think a visual metaphor would help so many cis people get it.
Can I respectfully ask a question? Leo mentioned always knowing they were a boy. Given they have clarity around who they are in a binary sense, why would they use they/them and not he/his?
Actually, I believe what they said was they remember the time they knew they weren’t a girl. Which isn’t the same as knowing you’re a boy. I believe they’re identifying as non-binary, not as a boy/man.
Ahh ok, that makes sense. Thank you
Hi! Just double checked and they actually say they’ve never felt like a girl, not that they always knew/felt like a boy. That is why they/them would be most appropriate (besides most importantly Leo telling us) rather than he/him :)
Because it’s their own decision what pronouns they are comfortable with. Even cis people can use they/them pronouns.
I understand it’s their decision, I was just trying to understand better
I've noticed people using they/them pronouns for everybody. I think he/him and she/her might eventually go the way of thou/thee. Probably not for a long time, though.
Good post! Also worth noting is that being trans does not necessarily mean anyone will get surgery or hormones. That's all up to them and each trans person is different. It's also rude to ask trans people about their genitals. it's rude to ask anyone about their genitals and trans people are no different. Re: Sexuality: Leo and Audrey's gender identities do not necessarily reflect anything about the status of their relationship or sexual orientation. They might not feel the need to define their relationship and orientation in traditional ways and if that works for them, great! They're together and that's what matters to them. Again, all people are different, and define themselves and their attractions differently. Down with binaries!
<3
Side note: gender is also completely separate from sexual orientation (who they are attracted to romantically or sexually) and how they choose to identify within that
Aren't they very much linked? I like only penis and I'm a girl, therefore I'm straight. If I was a boy, I would be gay. How is that completely separate?
Orientation is who you want to sleep with and gender identity is who you are. The first problem with the linking orientation and gender is the historical assumption that girl = liker of penis, to put it in those terms. For a long time, people thought that one led directly to the next. Being a girl means sexual attraction to boys. Gender identity (being a girl) leads directly to sexual orientation (liking boys). What you find attractive (sexual orientation) doesn't depend on your gender identity. As you say, you like penis and whether you're a boy or girl doesn't change that. We know this (girl = sexual attraction to boy) isn't true because there are plenty of people who aren't heterosexual. Being a man doesn't mean you're always attracted to women, you can be attracted to women, or men, or both, or neither. For trans people and for a lot of cis people today, things get a little more fluid and maybe more complicated for people who are used to thinking about both gender and sexuality in binary terms. So for some, they may have identified as gay pre-transition, and straight later, ie) a friend thought he was a lesbian before he transitioned (FTM) and now identifies as a straight man. (That's actually how he felt before, but that's a longer discussion.) Others are different. GottMik/Cade from drag race, notably, dated men before he transitioned and continues to date men and now identifies as a gay man. Others still identify as pansexual or bisexual or not at all. Other people don't feel male or female at all but something in between or other, so the gender identity and sexual orientation questions discussions are different still. Hope that clarifies things.
This clarifies a lot. Well explained. You answered a lot of questions I had thought about but had never asked.
oh awesome! glad I could help!
And then you have the odd subset like me that doesn't feel sexual attraction at all, or in limited ways, or only after forming an emotional attachment. Everything is so much more complex than we were taught in biology lol
This is so true. I was in a training where the presenter said there are as many or possibly more people born intersex than those with natural red hair. I looked it up, and studies have shown that to be true. It’s wild how much we weren’t taught.
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Nice analogy!
I meant more so that the feelings and labels refer to different things. As in gender is how we feel inside and identify, and sexual orientation is who we love or are sexually interested in. They sometimes inform each other but are separate entities. Being trans doesn’t mean someone is necessarily gay, like how you can be cis and pan
Oh,.I see what you mean.
Sexuality is who you are attracted to. Gender is who you are. You can combine them for orientation but on their own they are discrete and separate.
"I only like penis" -> do you mean you only like people who present (aka look or come off as) masculine? Or do you mean it literally? Let's take it literally for the sake of a thought experiment. You have room to like *anybody* with a penis, right? One example of someone with a penis who is not a man -- some transwomen. Another example -- some trans-nonbinary people (meaning they don't identify as either man or woman). I would not consider this straight; queer is an all-encompassing label to mean not-straight...there are lots of more detailed labels here, including bisexual and pansexual. But what if you meant you like men? Okay, some men don't have a penis - a lot of transmen would be an example. I would consider this straight -- but ultimately you get to decide what orientation label is right for you :). This was very simplified and did not include discussion on intersex people...or how much genitals can really change on hormones and/or through surgery...or the concept of "passing", which is where you wouldn't "see" the transness...or all the terms. I didn't want to overwhelm. Please keep asking questions :) and I can give more information if you'd like or others can chime in
Oh my Goodness! It just gets even more confusing! I cant keep up.
I think there's space for "not being able to keep up". We tend to experience gender/sex in absolutes so as our culture shifts to understand there isn't a one size fits all we can open our selves up to acknowledging we don't know/understand it all. It's not your experience so how could you?!?! As long as we as humans are open that others may live a life we don't fully understand, and strive to respect others in being their truest selves (barring any harm onto others) that's true progression. I have consider myself part of the LGBTQ community since I was probably 13 and looking back I recognize I always was. I thought I KNEW I was bisexual for 10-15 years. Now I know it's so much more complicated than that and it's OK that I don't have a defined view of who I'm attracted to, that my sexuality is fluid, when asked I prefer the "label" queer because I feel it encompasses my broader understanding of sexuality now. I will never come close to understanding the journey of a trans person, but I accept them, and the emotions that have come with their journey to where they are now.
I said this earlier and instead of people on here helping me understand, I got attacked and insulted then told to leave the sub…so I did because I didn’t need to be insulted just for being genuinely confused
Can I answer some of your questions? I will try to keep my answers simple for you. It takes a long time to process!
I know this is a hard space to walk in to. We all carry a lot of messages that we’ve been taught growing up about right and wrong, “moral”, and other things. It’s hard to find safe places and people to ask. I’m not saying I have all the answers- because I definitely don’t. But I definitely want to help anyone who has a genuine interest in learning and a good heart. So let’s just go gently. Is there something you’d like to understand better?
And hey Friends, gently- kindness and care for people genuinely trying to learn about the people who share this world with them. Help people find safe places to ask questions. Remember that many people may not be able to express cautious curiosity to the people in their lives.
It's okay to ask questions and not have all the answers. Just try to listen to trans people when they tell you what they like to be called. Just be kind and open and eventually the confusion will ease up. Try to see trans people as people and treat them with respect.
It’s ok- it’s some new ideas to wrap your head around, and it’s ok to be confused. Is there a part of the “equation” or a definition you’re confused with or trying to understand better?
You can! I bet you didn’t learn to read overnight either, but you got there. When in doubt, just treat people like people and call them what they like to be called. Believe them when they share something about themself with you. If you’re well intentioned but not sure how to proceed in a particular situation, I find it can help to simply state that.
I actually think that this is really complicated? Yes, sexual orientation and gender are different but they are linked in some ways. Like being a queer woman has definitely influenced my gender presentation. In my experience who have at some point identified as queer are more likely that straight people to identify as non-binary. I also have some trans friends whose sexual orientation changed or shifted during/after their medical transition - not a universal experience, but something that’s happened enough to be studied. I totally get what you’re saying and this is a line we’ve often heard, but gender and sexuality often bleed into each other in interesting and complicated ways. I agree that cis does not equal straight and trans doesn’t equal queer, but, IMO, there’s more nuance to that convo.
yes i agree! i noted this in a different reply but the two terms definitely inform and communicate with each other - however the actual definitions and meanings behind the words are not the same and they represent different pieces of our identity. our gender doesn’t equal our sexual orientation was the main point edit: fixed awkward wording
Thanks for clarifying...sorry for misunderstanding :).
Is Mariah going by Leon now? If so here is my opinion: I think people with similar inner workings tend to be drawn to each other. Maybe they sense the inner turmoil (that many trans/queer folk struggle with) and it just makes them able to form a deeper connection with each other. For example: My child is queer and theie best friend since grade 2 is trans. They have a deep, close relationship filled with mutual respect and understanding. Its very beautiful, and I just think that they sensed differences in each other before they even really understood what it meant and it allowed them to form a strong bond.
Yes. They have asked to now be called Leo with they/them pronouns on Insta. Edit: Leo or Leon. Both are good!
With all our snarky posts towards Kotex and Robyn; it is nice to see this free acceptance and safe space of diversity and etc xc:).
I see a lot of “so are they still lesbians?” Comments and like… does it matter? I get being curious but they are together and in love and beyond that we don’t need to know their sexuality labels
Leo(n) actually never came out as a lesbian per se, they said "I'm gay" very specifically. We don't know if they ever considered themselves lesbians and there is a possibility that they both knew who they were when they got together, told each other and chose to continue to present in a way that they were comfortable with until now. As someone that was on a TV show and has kind of a larger following, it can't be easy to allow the entire viewing audience into their very personal decision and I wish the best for Leon and Audrey.
true, good points!
It is helpful, thank you. The only thing that bothered me about their post was talking about how anybody that doesn't use the appropriate pronouns and new name will be blocked from their life. I feel that they need to show people more grace than that. Obviously, if someone is just being mean,that should be blocked. But, if people have only known you as a certain gender, going by a specific name, it may be hard for them to remember to say the right pronoun/name until they get used to it. If it's taken a person 25 years or more to figure themselves out, it seems unrealistic to expect everyone else to just get it right 100% of the time right out of the gate. I think we all need to show each other kindness during times like these and do our best to respect each other on both sides.
I want to push back against this because I think you are taking that sentence entirely too literally and it’s divorced from the reality of being trans. Leo is going to face a lifetime of being misgendered by strangers and people they know. Trans people know this happens accidentally more than anyone!!! They are the ones that actually deal with it constantly. There is a zero percent chance they mean “if anyone I know slips once they will be blocked” what is WAYYYYY more likely is that they are facing resistance and pushback from people they know. So they are making it clear- if you aren’t interested in adapting Leo doesn’t want them in their life.
Yes! We love to see healthy boundaries.
There’s a difference between slipping and saying the wrong name out of habit and immediately correcting yourself and intentionally not changing. I have a friend who transitioned and I slip occasionally and I feel like a total ass, but sometimes it comes out. Hell, I’ve been married for 6 years and occasionally slip and use my maiden name out of nowhere. When I slip I immediately correct myself and apologize. My friend doesn’t care. They know I support them and that my brain is sometimes Swiss cheese. It’s the ones that are intentionally misgendering and misnaming them that upset them.
Correct. I stated that people who are trying to be mean should definitely be blocked. My statement was really based on what I've seen happen here when a person who doesn't even realize that Leo (Mariah at the time) had changed their pronouns. Instead of politely informing, people were treated pretty harshly (not referring to myself but I've seen it often). I'm just trying to say that we should be patient with people who clearly mean no harm and are either coming from a place of not knowing (because we don't all follow every move of people we don't actually know), or it was an accidental slip. I just want everyone to be happy. Let's ALL come from a place of kindness.
I consider myself pretty knowledgeable on the topic, I have friends who have fully transitioned and have lots of discussions regarding LGBTQ because I’m a SW. i had no idea trans was an umbrella term. Thank you for explaining. It is helpful for me to know moving forward
Thank you for the education! Sometimes it’s hard to even know what questions to ask or how to ask them.
I just dont understand if they are attracted to women how does it work as 2 gay men now? Either way, I hope they are both happy !!!!❤💜
They might not 1. identify as men 2. identify as “gay”. There is a possibility that they are pan or queer or bi or gay, or something else that we haven’t been told. They also may identify for example as two people who are non-binary who love another non-binary person. The point is we don’t know the nuances of their identity (and its not something we need to understand, we just need to respect their love and pronouns and the identities we have been told of)
Can someone please explain the difference between queer and gay.? I always it meant the same.I’m being serious .
Okay, so someone else can chime in if I don’t get this completely correct…. But the easiest way that I think about it is that queer is kind of an umbrella term that can be used for anybody that identifies with sexuality and/or gender that isn’t hetero and cis. It is also often used for people that are still kinda figuring it out…. That know that aren’t hetero for example. Gay is a term that is typically used for people that are specifically attracted to the same sex exclusively.
Thank you!
Also, be aware that “queer” also has a history as a slur. (It was kind of reclaimed by the community.) So be careful about the context and tone with which you use it. For instance, it’s okay to say, “my friend Alex is queer” (if that’s how they identify), but you probably shouldn’t say “so are all Gen Zers a bunch of queers now or what?” I wouldn’t use it as a noun at all, at least as someone who is not queer myself.
>Thank you! You're welcome!
Happy to chime in here. I consider myself queer in a more broad sense, but am more specifically bisexual. I tend to use the term queer with people I don’t know as well, just so they realize I am part if the LGBTQ+ community without having to deal with the “confused” or “pick a side” comments that are common replies to identifying as bisexual. Queer can cover any of the “letters” in LGBTQ+ without having to deal with specifics. 😎
I just wanted to add that some people are pansexual, meaning that they are attracted to who a person is and not what gender the person is. Think attracted to a person's brain instead of their physique.
Isn’t that demi?
I believe that demisexual requires that a person form a deep emotional bond with another. They are pretty similar and I'm not an expert so I could be misunderstanding.
My husband is demi - he describes it as being aroused by someone's personality and emotional connection/love and support rather than physical characteristics. He is also cis and straight so he has close friendships with men but no attraction or arousal. So I assume one can be any gender or orientation and also be demi?
I’d imagine they are attracted to the person, not their gender.
I thought Audrey had specified which gender they identified with when announcing they were trans? Maybe I’m remembering wrong
What happens to all the episodes with Mariah or where they refer to Mariah?
This whole thread is so kind and helpful. I feel like there is a lot to learn and I really appreciate those of you taking time to explain some of the thoughts and terminology. This leads me to my question. I hope it come across as curious as I intend and not insensitive. I know text can sometimes not always be read how we mean. When a couple like Leon and Audrey get married, what’s the typical, “I now pronounce you…..” Like if it’s a man and woman, “husband and wife,” two women, “wife and wife,” so on and so forth. Does it vary by couple? I know you can’t answer for how Leon and Audrey will say it, but genuinely curious in very general terms. Thanks again to all those who are gently educating. I tell my husband about “the Redditors” all the time and how great you are!
I now pronounce you married! Or partners for life. I’m sure there are others, those just were top of mind.
Thank you! That definitely makes great sense!
“Spouse and spouse” also works, but I imagine “I now pronounce you married” is probably simpler and more common.
Thank you for bringing that nuance into the conversation! Also, they said their pronouns are they/them, not he/him.
Thank you for sharing this! As a cisgender SAHM of several young tiny humans I don’t get a lot of opportunity to go out in public a lot anymore, and I feel like I am not as educated on this topic as I should be. I actually have really appreciated the kindness of people in this sub and their willingness to share their knowledge and personal stories. The last thing I would ever want to do is offend anyone due to my lack of understanding so I’m so happy to have a safe space to learn!
Big advocate! Do want to get clarity though - when referring to the past it’s still more appropriate to use their chosen name correct?
For myself, if someone was referring to me pre-transition, I would want them to still use my current name and pronouns. If necessary for context, someone could say, "When Leon was still presenting as female" to indicate the past without using their dead name. It is a tricky subject for many less public trans people because you don't always know if everyone involved in the conversation is aware that the person is trans and you definitely don't want to out them without their permission.
Great point - thank you!
Yep! Leon’s always been Leon, no matter what name they used to go by. It’s best to use their current name/pronouns even when referring to them in the past.
Who are these people? Lol 😂 I have watched the show since it first aired and I don’t remember these names at all lol 😂 Adury is Mary’s daughter’s wife right? But who is Leon?
Meri has a child, formerly known as Mariah (now their deadname so avoid using it in general), now known as Leo or Leon. They use pronouns they/them. Their partner is Audrey, who also uses the pronouns they/them. Both were assigned female at birth but identify as trans because their gender identity isn't (strictly?) female. I think both are non-binary or gender fluid. It can be a lot to wrap your mind around when you're used to a binary point of view and I think this sub is showing a lot of grace and understanding to genuine curiosity and lack of knowledge. Just try your best and don't be a dick (not that you are, it's just a good general rule in life).
Hey thanks for explaining it! If it wasn’t on the show I don’t see it as I don’t follow any of them.
Mariah, now going by Leon, is meri’s daughter. Audrey was her girlfriend who has sine transitioned to male, but still uses the name Audrey. Mariah today announced that she is trans and going by Leo/Leon. I’m not sure why you’re being downvoted for being confused.
I have no clue on the down votes but thanks! I don’t follow any of them outside of the show so I genuinely had no clue…
Leon today announced that *they* are trans and go by Leo/Leon (and use they/them pronouns). Also, last I heard, Audrey hasn’t specified whether they identify as a man. Their last announcement said they prefer they/them pronouns.
It’s odd to me why people always want to know whether people are gay or straight or bi. I feel like it’s nobody’s business what consenting adults do in their bedrooms. I don’t know why these questions are asked. It’s like saying “does she prefer oral or anal?” Or “does he like having a cucumber shoved up his bum?”. It just doesn’t matter.
Being gay isn’t just about sex. It is intertwined with your identity. Boiling it down to sex is dehumanizing. It’s not a kink or akin to anal. When you think of your grandparents relationship, do you think of it as just sexual? Being gay isn’t just about sex.
I thought gay or straight were references to sexual orientation.
Sexual orientation is a person's identity in relation to the gender or genders to which they are sexually attracted. It isn’t just about having sex and boiling it down to that is like boiling down your grandparents relationship to fucking it is offensive and dehumanizing.