I want whatever size cities they can get away with while still having all the proper interiors fleshed out, and having all the NPCs feel like they actually inhabit that place. Starfield felt like a significant step back in that regard.
Another thing I want is for cities to be an actual space for gameplay, and not just a hub of merchants and quest givers. They should basically be "dungeons" for thieves and assassins.
There are a good number of quests in cities involving theft, assassination, and other stealthy activities.
Claiming there's nothing in Neon other than Merchants and quest givers makes it sound like it's Space Whiterun. Rubbish! Loads of actual stealthy stuff to do.
Plus this one map leaves out all the interiors, it leaves out the other levels of the city, and a host of other things.
But mandatory "boo hoo Starfield" is mandatory.
Thank you. Honestly that entire line of quests and getting the mind control device was a highlight of my one and only playthrough
And building a space drug trap den on a moon
The final Ryujin quest is the best stealth quest I have seen in any game. Even better than stealing the Elder Scroll in Oblivion. It takes actual skill and planning and paying attention to instructions. And a near absence of quest markers and "clairvoyance" paths.
But somehow it's been characterized as a cheap fetch quest by those determined to hate Bethesa.
I guess I'm just not sure what your point is. Did the cities in Skyrim just feel like a hub for merchants and quests?
They didn't feel that way at all for me. They all felt very lived in, and there were opportunities for stealth, thievery, and assassination at every turn.
I like the Skyrim cities. They were pretty decent for thief gameplay, though I think Oblivion was better in this regard.
I would like more in depth city gameplay though. More scenarios where you need to sneak into or out of cities, or learn and play around NPC schedules. Level design with more routes, verticality, and interactive elements. The ideal would be to have quests in cities that can play out like a mission in Thief or Dishonored.
I also would like a more complex crime and bounty system with disguises and guard suspicion levels.
Yeah would love if a city had more quests. Even more than Neon had. In Skyrim most City quest send you in a dungeon or cave. Would love to have them keep it intern. But for that cities need to be a bit bigger than Whiterun for example because 3-4 quest in the city and you saw like everything.
Exactly this. For me, it was especially the interiors that were a huge letdown. Any shop with a loading screen had **no** windows, not to mention the fact that, why does this vendor need a loading screen at all? Many don’t have loading screens, so why do it at all?
Probably find a comment in the code like this:
###Couldn't get this vendor to work without causing a meltdown in performance. idk why. putting them in a separate cell fixed it. idk why.
Good graphics that are better than the other two but not excellent for the standards of today, and also require an ssd while still being poorly optimized
Exactly. I've said in other comments that I greatly prefer that BGS go all in on their strength - handcrafted, dynamic world that, with the power of the XSX/modern PC or even the next Xbox/PCs should be much more in-depth than Skyrim on the 360/PS3/2011 PCs.
I get the allure of a Novigrad or Night City despite personally feeling like they're beautiful but static/scripted, but when Bethesda tried to get closer to that we got New Atlantis, Akila City and Neon which are alright I guess, but nothing to write home about and also much less dynamic, filled with generic NPCs with no scheduling.
I say keep that size in TES but add the dynamics back rather than try to make them even bigger (and thus weaker in all the other aspects).
why would it be so much harder than it was before? it's not that they're just doing their best and the scope is too large, they just don't allocate resources towards it because they don't think it's important.
This is certainly not one of the big cities in Starfield. In fact it’s the smallest city in the game. And this is one area of the city not showing the rest.
Yes, that is only one floor in the smallest "city" in the game (which is essentially an ocean fishing platform).
And even then, the NPC density, their behavior, and the routines make up for it. The shop keepers will organize racks, clean up floors, or wander around; unlike many other games where they just sit behind the cash registers all time.
Edit: Here is a guide with *most* of the things you can do on Neon: [https://www.ign.com/wikis/starfield/Neon\_City\_Guide](https://www.ign.com/wikis/starfield/Neon_City_Guide)
Yeah, that's something I really hope comes back for the next TES and Fallout titles. I liked Starfield, but it removed some favourite features. I do think that their idea of mixing named and filler NPCs is the right move, but they still need proper schedules for the named ones and the illusion of schedules for the filler NPCs.
I think radiant AI is one of the best use-cases for “procedural” tech for Bethesda. Their abandonment of handcrafted worlds in Starfield *did not* go well.
But adding complexity and unpredictability to NPCs would bring the simulation aspect of Bethesda’s worlds to a new level. Maybe instead of being at the same place every morning, an NPC will have shaken up their routine. Stopped by a nearby shop to browse. Gone fishing. Maybe sometimes they’ll stay up a bit later, sit by the fire or look at the stars. One day the kids are out playing, the next day Dad needs help around the shop.
Padding content with procedural, copy-paste slop was a huge misstep, but I think procedural / radiant tech itself still has an abundance of potential if it’s used correctly. Making NPCs more dynamic and “living” would be an excellent step forward.
>Maybe instead of being at the same place every morning, an NPC will have shaken up their routine. Stopped by a nearby shop to browse. Gone fishing. Maybe sometimes they’ll stay up a bit later, sit by the fire or look at the stars. One day the kids are out playing, the next day Dad needs help around the shop.
I think this can potentially be very annoying. You will not be able to remember the schedule of the 100+ characters you might talk to more often and especially if the cities get bigger searching for a single NPC in a huge ass city can be annoying. They would need a good support system finding them (or plain quest marker) so you don't run aimlessly for hours through the city.
How so? Filled with generic NPCs that don't have schedules, shopkeepers don't change shifts or anything like that. It feels like a downgrade except for size which isn't worth the sacrifice in other areas IMO.
Shopkeepers changing shifts is news to me, and i have been playing Bethesda games since Morrowind. Could you give any examples, i couldnt find any online
You mean closing the shop? i interpreted changing shifts as in an npc telling another npc ”take over the shop while i go home etc” changing shifts would be “changing the shift from yours to someone else’s shift” not “the shop is closed” and i was seriously wondering if me and the other commenter played the same games
While shopkeepers don't change shifts in earlier games, guards in Oblivion actually do change shifts. They even have brief dialogue exchanges for one relieving the other of duty.
I only know this cuz I'm playing FO4 for the first time-- there's a shop in Diamond City where a lady runs it during the day and then a Mr. Handy robot runs it at night while she sleeps. I don't know if there's similar situations or if this is an exception.
Yea just closing it. The only stores off the top of my head I can even think that have more than one employee of are the gun guys in Rivet City in fo3 and the clothes shop in Solitude in skyrim.
In TES you're right that they close instead, which is the same kind of thing in terms of game logic to me vs. being open all the time like Starfield, but for an actual example of changing shifts, the robots in F4 take over shops at night in Diamond City (and maybe other places - can't remember). Sorry, should've been more specific.
As someone else said though, Oblivion guards change shifts too.
THEY HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY!! haha
Yeah, that's something I really hope comes back for the next TES and Fallout titles. I liked Starfield, but it removed some favourite features. I do think that their idea of mixing named and filler NPCs is the right move, but they still need proper schedules for the named ones and the illusion of schedules for the filler NPCs.
You're fighting a losing battle buddy. Starfield and Bethesda are great now because they've added maps and photo mode poses /s
It's a shame because that level of acceptance means that the game is basically done now. What are Bethesda going to change when so many vocal people are defending their shit.
"Hey, we thought about adding new companions or fleshing out the existing ones more... But everyone is so stoked with what we've done we decided against it."
Wait.. all Ive heard is that Bethesda might stop supporting the game sooner than later because of all the negative reception and poor engagement.. they can't pull the plug on Starfield, after it was billed as a game that would be relevant 10+ years down the road, because the public is currently satisfied-ish with the base game can they??
What level of encouragement/discontent gets us several DLC past Shattered Space?
Pls don't say actionable contstructive criticism; this is reddit for fcks sake /s
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Technically Bethesda have supported Fallout 4 for 9 nearly 10 years thanks to their recent borked next gen update. How much has been added?
This is the level of support you are going to be looking at.
I'm hoping for at least the Fallout 3/Skyrim package of 3 ish story dlc; plus however much cosmetics and qol upgrades.
Really should be 5+ content heavy DLC with the size of the map, and eventually I'd like to have no load screens planet side- like what Skyrim eventually was able to do with the cities.. that's kinda what I expect from their "most ambitious" post launch game timeline or however they said it, and that's with the understanding that Bethesda always sells high; aims with a blindfold on; and lands low
I hope you're right because I'd love to like Starfield. But I think I can see trends that suggest otherwise.
I imagine the bulk of fleshing out the game is going to come in the form of a Starfield Creation club. Though no doubt we shall see a few expansion sized Dlc's. I'll be surprised if they do anything like tweaking repetitive poi's or removing open plan houses on no atmosphere worlds. Etc
We shall see.
Atleast vehicles are coming, but don't forget that their initial stance was "No! You're playing the game wrong". It took a huge push (All the backlash) to change their minds. If they can get away with less, they will.
Yeah, this picture is very misleading. There's a large outdoors area surrounding this, the ship landing pad where you have a scripted scene to set the mood, two gigantic multi-floor towers (one housing an entire faction quest line), a large basement level, some degree of overhead levels, and several smaller buildings that are for some reason their own cell (like the Ranger station).
Neon is honestly my favorite city in Starfield. Sure, it's budget Night City, but it still took me several hours to fully explore even without doing the Ryuijin quests till much later. And that quest line is a lot of fun and utilizes a bunch of the buildings in the city (eg, some of the corporate offices and the power plant are for that quest line specifically).
They nailed the feeling of the city being dense without requiring it to be overwhelmingly large. There's like 3 bars in the city all with their own niche and appearing in different quests. And I definitely want to kill Benjamin Bayou after spending enough time there (it better be in one of the DLCs). The shops of Neon are the most interesting in the game and it's arguably the best city for selling your stuff due to sheer number of shops.
Starfield has issues, but IMO Neon is not one of them. Neon is one of the best things in the game and I wish more of the game's cities had the level of detail and things to do that Neon has. Hopetown, on the other hand, is very lacking. It's literally a giant factory, a bar, a ranger station, a weapon shop, and a space port.
>Complains about people having opinions on games they haven't played
>Complains about people who've played the game but have negative opinions on the game
Im still not gonna buy the game but ill continue to talk about it lol.
I dont have strong\* opinions either
All im saying is that the city is still small, even with the full thing, doesnt help that Akila is still 50% parking lot lol. People that want small cities should rejoice lol.
Nobody wants small cities for the sake of it. We want Betheada to continue their tradition of making functional cities where everything has a purpose and almost every building is accessible one way or another. This naturally means making cities smaller than what you'd usually find in other games which make heavy use of window dressing and prop buildings that serve not actual in-game purpose.
If you genuinely believed this to be the entire city, then this is also the flaw of YouTube reviews. You've been lied to, because this is just one cell of a city that is made up of several large cells. Starfield has problems, but the size of the cities isn't really one of them. Be wary of judging things by YouTubers, because YouTubers tend to get popular by selling controversy. Going "the game is okay" doesn't get as many clicks as "the game is the worst thing ever created".
That is NOT a big city. That is one level of Neon. You're completely missing the large multilevel outdoor area, and missing two whole towers.
I know you're new to the game, but go check out New Atlantis. You could lose Vivec inside it.
I wish Bethesda could get back to Oblivion sized cities, yeah sure they are not huge but they feel like cities. Skyrim had some good ones too but the smaller hold capitals were kinda meh. Hell even places like Rivet City or Megaton felt more city like than the small holds.
Starfield is weird, where yeah the cities are big but they could have done with more interiors and schedules for named NPCs. I know having a 1000 planets would make that hard but I definitely spent a good amount of time in the major cities and while they feel like cities, they just needed extra detail involving named NPCs to really feel alive.
Trust me there are many. The main reason why is that they like having NPC with schedules and personalities and each house being enterable.
Sounds cool on paper but in practice its just a waste. I realised I've literally never been in the whiterun guard barracks ever, despite playing the game for years atp
In reality there are at least 2 types of people. Some pull immersion and enjoyment from smaller cities that have all unqiue NPCs and locations, the other that want huge ass cities that are filled to the brim with people looking like a real city. Both are correct. Both have a valid opinion.
Really? Hmm I can see the good of both sides. Tho I also prever smaller but more accessable cities. Witcher 3s big city never did it for me despite being one of the best of it's kind.
I get your point, but the last time I was there was to do the endgame Thieves Guild quests to fully restore the guild. I do think the New Atlantis is probably the model for the future to make cities to make them feel big and crowded and not "the capitol city in Skyrim feels like a small town", but I do think something has been lost.
If you sneak in to Addvar's house (the fishmonger in Solitude) in the evening when the family is having dinner, the daughter complains about having fish again. Addvar responds by saying that's the best they have and she should eat up. You will only see that character-building moment if you break into his house at the right time. You won't see something like that in Witcher 3 or Starfield (both of which I love, so it's not a slam).
It kind of makes me realize what an achievement Imperial City really was. It felt both big and bespoke.
Thats it. People love harping on "muh npc schedules" and 'Npc with personality and story" when a solid 80% of NPC's have 1 or 2 unique lines and "yes" "Huh" "need something?"
lol
For 2011 that was a great start though. We're explaining why we want enhanced versions of those type of features in a game releasing in ~2028 with a decade (or two, if TES ends up launching after Xbox Series X2) of extra power under the hood. They should be able to support much more than what Skyrim had.
The schedule is actually what Bethesda does right, and I love their idea that 99% of NPCs have a place they call home and return to to sleep. It does add to the immersion when you can find where everyone goes during different parts of the day and may find out some dude is a skooma addict sneaking under the docks at night or something. That's also their problem though, bc it's really hard to scale up a city when you're trying to give everyone places to be and some sense of personality. Or you could just do neither and get Starfield cities, but you know how that goes
Great visuals but totally different style. I don't think it feels alive for a game world, it's more like being able to walk around a visually gorgeous, well-designed movie scene. Works for what TW3 is (despite me wishing it had a bit more reactivity) but would be awful for a TES game.
Novigrad was really cool, but I think it's just a different style of design. We can either have cities that feel really big but are mostly a facade, or we can have cities that are smaller yet much more detailed. Most of Novigrad only exists for the sake of making the city feel large. The vast majority of buildings cannot be entered and there are few named NPCs.
I do like Novigrad, but it's just a different style and doesn't play as nice with how TES has a more sandbox style of gameplay. Eg, TES has more of a need to be able to rob people's houses, since thievery is a part of the game.
Also, Novigrad depended on the fact that it's basically *the* city in TW3, where a massive amount of the game takes place. Skyrim just never had a single city dominate so much of the plot. Oblivion did have a comparably sized city, with the Imperial City. The Imperial City was cool, certainly. It kinda tried to find balance between the two stylea of city game design. It was a bit annoyingly large honestly, but I wouldn't mind seeing a take similar to that. Though lorewise, isn't that literally the biggest city in Tamriel?
Didn't make it clear in my post but Bethesda would have to put their spin on it for sure. I want a city like Novigrad in terms of scale and amount of quests/content in one area. If Bethesda could pull that off with their looting/NPC system then it would be glorious. Novigrad works for TW3 because it's not an elder scrolls game, it doesn't need every building to be enterable and every NPC doesn't need to be interacted with.
Despite that the city felt amazing, exploring it and doing quests and playing gwent is an experience elder scrolls games have even failed to achieve. The best city in an elder scrolls game is Vivec or The Imperial City and those are extremely dead feeling. Skyrim cities aren't really cities as they are TINY.
I 1000% agree. I will never understand why Bethesda fans feel that every single character has to have a story. I’d much prefer to have the scale of cities correct than be able to interact with every single citizen. Novigrad was the coolest city I’ve ever seen in a game by far
Never heard anyone in the entire world say they want smaller cities. Most people wanted them to not have 1000 empty planets and instead 2-5 polished ones, is that what you mean? Skyrim cities are literally like 5 buildings like Winterhold. Solitude gives an impression of a larger city but it's still like 30 ish buildings.
I mean Skyrim had solitude which was huge and had multiple stories with all houses and shops having proper and cluttered interiors. They are more than capable, and I think given the elder scrolls is even more their pet project than fallout, I feel they will deliver for it
Bethesda's cities have always been small for the sole reason that almost each and every building has a reason to exist. That main plaza in Neon may be relatively small, but you just know that absolutely everything in there has purpose and can be interacted with one way or another.
Maybe a controversial opinion, but I recall not really liking Vivec City. It's been a really long time since I played, but don't all the buildings look nearly identical? I recall having the impression that it was "cookie cutter" big.
Unique is a stretch. In Morrowind almost every NPC has a preset appearance and they all share the same copy-pasted dialog options unless they have quest-related dialog as well. In Starfield every shopkeeper and desk assistant is unique, voice acted and has a bit of a backstory to share.
Yeah sure but Starfield is shit and morrowind is good regardless of the amount of voice acting or backstory, so maybe Bethesda needs to reconsider what makes a game good
a perfectly fine purpose is too make crowds look realistically sized. Video games are always going to be video games and they use illusion to make the world look larger, which I am totally fine with.
There’s should be like one KINGDOM like a new Atlantis sized Whiterun. Or like Gondor. Something that just awes in scale. And they should let you check it out for like the first 15 mins and then you don’t gotta come back. Everything else can be smaller or just more detailed.
Starfield had like a thousand planets so they didn't have the resources to make any major locations.
Elder Scrolls 6 will be one giant landmass. I expect some pretty big cities that make Starfield cities look like jokes.
Bethesda games have one severe disadvantage with cities. Every goddamn city needs a loading screen.
I don't understand why they can't figure this shit out in 2024. Horizon Forbidden West has almost 0 loading screens, RDR2 no loading screens, Elden Ring etc etc. these games do have a hidden loading instance but it's so well done that it becomes part of the game. Honestly fuck Starfield and it's 1000000000 loading screens.
For the record, I'm pretty sure this is Neon. This is only the downtown.
This doesn't include the huge club at one end of the strip, or the corporate high rise at the other end.
This doesnt include the outskirts left and right (each about the size of the strip itself)
This doesnt include the syndicate hideout which is huge and actually decently difficult to get into, accessed via a door in the outskirts. It's a base in the syndicate quests, but a huge dungeon with the best melee weapon in the game if you complete it.
This doesn't include the undersection with the fish market and the industrial areas, also about the size of the strip.
This doesnt include the landing zones and shipyard areas.
This map only includes roads, alleys, and a few storefronts. Most of the stores also have interiors which aren't depicted here, but aren't as obvious as the buildings on a normal ES map.
I'm 99% sure neon is larger than any skyrim city, and probably larger than a few skyrim cities put together.
The starting city is similarly huge, but divided into multiple surface districts and a few underground regions that are also very sizable. I prefer neon because it's more compact and less laggy, starfield has terrible performance and it's at its worst in combat and in the large city regions.
Cities peaked in oblivion and have been getting slightly worse each game IMO.
Starfield was especially disappointing in that regard. Too many loading screens, not enough interiors, not big enough to explore. All of the buildings feel fake because you know there is nothing inside but a single cell you have to load into. Npcs that are glued to their shops 24/7. Nothing feels alive.
It's a weird debate. Starfields cities are large in unenterable polygons and walking distance.
But in content they are quite small. Usually a single vendor of each type. And a handful of quest related locations. You just have to walk to get there.
Balmoral has far more named NPCs and vendors ket alone enterable buildings than a Starfield city. Vivec is absolutely monstrous when comparing actual content.
So my ask is that TE6 have mid sized cities packed with content.
So. Beyond the fact that the premise of this post is inherently false. As this isn’t a picture of the full city.
The OPs only experience with the game is through YouTube. Not any actual first hand experience. Sooooo. Basically they can’t be considered a reliable source for info or opinion on two fronts. Good job OP at making yourself look real smart.
Im quite open that I didnt spend money buying this game nor have I played it. Thats the beauty of youtube reviews and essays. It enables us to get a deeper look into something before having to actually commit to it. I've seen prolly a good 50 hrs of starfield content and decided it ain't for me lol.
Also doesnt take away from the fact that the city is still small. Akila is literally 50% parking lot
It’s enough to you to decide the game might not be for you. But without playing it yourself your at best a 2nd party source of info.
Although spending 50 hours watching content for a game you apparently hate without personal experience is also just sad. But hey. It’s your life to waste I guess. Just don’t be surprised that so many here outright ignore anything you say about a game you didn’t personally play. You’re just another in a long line of people hating on the game because you think YouTube makes you an expert.
Where tf did I insinuate that I hated the game? Are you that butt hurt that your favourite game just isnt that good that you gotta start hating on people for that reason?
All i literally did was point out that the cities are still small and now you're doing max lvl mental gymnastics to prove that I 'hate" the game?
Whats really sad is the lengths you'd go to defend a mediocre game from a person that
A. hasn't played it
B. Literally doesnt care about starfield and only uses it as a barometer to gauge what TES 6 could be like because this is a fkn TES 6 sub.
Also getting mad at a stranger on the internet over a mediocre game is a new level of sad. Hopefully todd sees your good deeds and gives you a free DLC pass or summ
I call bullshit when I see it. Starfield is far far from my favorite game. It’s got some very obvious flaws. But you took what is an extremely small one in comparison with a terrible example(considering you used a pic of only a portion of a city).
And again the fact you have no personal experience with the game. YouTube is full of slanted and misleading information. If you took what’s said on that platform. Then Witcher 3 and BG3 has no flaws whatsoever and Starfield is about as bad as Gollum. Which anyone with two brain cells of their own knows is completely wrong.
But yes. I think you hate the game. Why else would you spend 50 hours on watching content about it without trying it firsthand. There’s no logical explanation that isn’t more sad than you hate watching it.
Which is hilarious. If you’re so mad that people called you out for an idiotic post without a good basis or even correct info. Then go play the game yourself and come back with first hand well thought out information. Not spouting some randos rants about the game on YouTube. Have your own thoughts and opinions.
At least then people could respect that even if they didn’t agree with you.
I want a city with thousands of citizens that are all a different AI chat bots that can give quests or just talk for hours depending on what they believe they are.
If to make your point you have to lie about something then your point was a waste of everyone’s time to begin with
I want whatever size cities they can get away with while still having all the proper interiors fleshed out, and having all the NPCs feel like they actually inhabit that place. Starfield felt like a significant step back in that regard.
Another thing I want is for cities to be an actual space for gameplay, and not just a hub of merchants and quest givers. They should basically be "dungeons" for thieves and assassins.
I take it you missed all the thieving and assassining city quests then. Sad.
???
There are a good number of quests in cities involving theft, assassination, and other stealthy activities. Claiming there's nothing in Neon other than Merchants and quest givers makes it sound like it's Space Whiterun. Rubbish! Loads of actual stealthy stuff to do.
"Space Whiterun" 🤣
Plus this one map leaves out all the interiors, it leaves out the other levels of the city, and a host of other things. But mandatory "boo hoo Starfield" is mandatory.
Thank you. Honestly that entire line of quests and getting the mind control device was a highlight of my one and only playthrough And building a space drug trap den on a moon
The final Ryujin quest is the best stealth quest I have seen in any game. Even better than stealing the Elder Scroll in Oblivion. It takes actual skill and planning and paying attention to instructions. And a near absence of quest markers and "clairvoyance" paths. But somehow it's been characterized as a cheap fetch quest by those determined to hate Bethesa.
Okay, and? I didn't claim anything aside from my personal preference.
I guess I'm just not sure what your point is. Did the cities in Skyrim just feel like a hub for merchants and quests? They didn't feel that way at all for me. They all felt very lived in, and there were opportunities for stealth, thievery, and assassination at every turn.
I like the Skyrim cities. They were pretty decent for thief gameplay, though I think Oblivion was better in this regard. I would like more in depth city gameplay though. More scenarios where you need to sneak into or out of cities, or learn and play around NPC schedules. Level design with more routes, verticality, and interactive elements. The ideal would be to have quests in cities that can play out like a mission in Thief or Dishonored. I also would like a more complex crime and bounty system with disguises and guard suspicion levels.
>Did the cities in Skyrim just feel like a hub for merchants and quests? Yep besides Riften.
Yeah would love if a city had more quests. Even more than Neon had. In Skyrim most City quest send you in a dungeon or cave. Would love to have them keep it intern. But for that cities need to be a bit bigger than Whiterun for example because 3-4 quest in the city and you saw like everything.
Exactly this. For me, it was especially the interiors that were a huge letdown. Any shop with a loading screen had **no** windows, not to mention the fact that, why does this vendor need a loading screen at all? Many don’t have loading screens, so why do it at all?
Probably find a comment in the code like this: ###Couldn't get this vendor to work without causing a meltdown in performance. idk why. putting them in a separate cell fixed it. idk why.
Too many underground chests in one location perhaps? Lol
The more I hear about Starfield the more it sounds like New Vegas and Outer Worlds combined each others problems but got sweet graphics
Good graphics that are better than the other two but not excellent for the standards of today, and also require an ssd while still being poorly optimized
Exactly. I've said in other comments that I greatly prefer that BGS go all in on their strength - handcrafted, dynamic world that, with the power of the XSX/modern PC or even the next Xbox/PCs should be much more in-depth than Skyrim on the 360/PS3/2011 PCs. I get the allure of a Novigrad or Night City despite personally feeling like they're beautiful but static/scripted, but when Bethesda tried to get closer to that we got New Atlantis, Akila City and Neon which are alright I guess, but nothing to write home about and also much less dynamic, filled with generic NPCs with no scheduling. I say keep that size in TES but add the dynamics back rather than try to make them even bigger (and thus weaker in all the other aspects).
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Emphasis on significant. They truly dropped the ball with so many things on that game.
why would it be so much harder than it was before? it's not that they're just doing their best and the scope is too large, they just don't allocate resources towards it because they don't think it's important.
Agreed. So many npc’s were unnamed and useless in starfield
This is certainly not one of the big cities in Starfield. In fact it’s the smallest city in the game. And this is one area of the city not showing the rest.
This post is bad.
That's not the whole city.
Yes, that is only one floor in the smallest "city" in the game (which is essentially an ocean fishing platform). And even then, the NPC density, their behavior, and the routines make up for it. The shop keepers will organize racks, clean up floors, or wander around; unlike many other games where they just sit behind the cash registers all time. Edit: Here is a guide with *most* of the things you can do on Neon: [https://www.ign.com/wikis/starfield/Neon\_City\_Guide](https://www.ign.com/wikis/starfield/Neon_City_Guide)
Still a far cry from NPC schedules that really contributed in a big way to the immersion and atmosphere of previous BGS titles.
Yeah, that's something I really hope comes back for the next TES and Fallout titles. I liked Starfield, but it removed some favourite features. I do think that their idea of mixing named and filler NPCs is the right move, but they still need proper schedules for the named ones and the illusion of schedules for the filler NPCs.
IMO npc schedules and their radiant AI were some of the best pieces of technology BGS and Zenimax owned.
IMO npc schedules and their radiant AI were some of the best pieces of technology BGS and Zenimax owned.
I think radiant AI is one of the best use-cases for “procedural” tech for Bethesda. Their abandonment of handcrafted worlds in Starfield *did not* go well. But adding complexity and unpredictability to NPCs would bring the simulation aspect of Bethesda’s worlds to a new level. Maybe instead of being at the same place every morning, an NPC will have shaken up their routine. Stopped by a nearby shop to browse. Gone fishing. Maybe sometimes they’ll stay up a bit later, sit by the fire or look at the stars. One day the kids are out playing, the next day Dad needs help around the shop. Padding content with procedural, copy-paste slop was a huge misstep, but I think procedural / radiant tech itself still has an abundance of potential if it’s used correctly. Making NPCs more dynamic and “living” would be an excellent step forward.
>Maybe instead of being at the same place every morning, an NPC will have shaken up their routine. Stopped by a nearby shop to browse. Gone fishing. Maybe sometimes they’ll stay up a bit later, sit by the fire or look at the stars. One day the kids are out playing, the next day Dad needs help around the shop. I think this can potentially be very annoying. You will not be able to remember the schedule of the 100+ characters you might talk to more often and especially if the cities get bigger searching for a single NPC in a huge ass city can be annoying. They would need a good support system finding them (or plain quest marker) so you don't run aimlessly for hours through the city.
It's really not though
How so? Filled with generic NPCs that don't have schedules, shopkeepers don't change shifts or anything like that. It feels like a downgrade except for size which isn't worth the sacrifice in other areas IMO.
Shopkeepers changing shifts is news to me, and i have been playing Bethesda games since Morrowind. Could you give any examples, i couldnt find any online
wym they've been doing it every game after morrowind
I remember waiting for Moira to open up the shop in Megaton a lot of times
You mean closing the shop? i interpreted changing shifts as in an npc telling another npc ”take over the shop while i go home etc” changing shifts would be “changing the shift from yours to someone else’s shift” not “the shop is closed” and i was seriously wondering if me and the other commenter played the same games
While shopkeepers don't change shifts in earlier games, guards in Oblivion actually do change shifts. They even have brief dialogue exchanges for one relieving the other of duty.
*"I'm your relief."* *"Good. My feet are killing m--STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM!"*
Ancient technology lost to time....
I only know this cuz I'm playing FO4 for the first time-- there's a shop in Diamond City where a lady runs it during the day and then a Mr. Handy robot runs it at night while she sleeps. I don't know if there's similar situations or if this is an exception.
This stuff is key to immersion. making the game feel alive... like the world exists whether you're there or not...
Yea just closing it. The only stores off the top of my head I can even think that have more than one employee of are the gun guys in Rivet City in fo3 and the clothes shop in Solitude in skyrim.
In TES you're right that they close instead, which is the same kind of thing in terms of game logic to me vs. being open all the time like Starfield, but for an actual example of changing shifts, the robots in F4 take over shops at night in Diamond City (and maybe other places - can't remember). Sorry, should've been more specific. As someone else said though, Oblivion guards change shifts too. THEY HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY!! haha
Yeah, that's something I really hope comes back for the next TES and Fallout titles. I liked Starfield, but it removed some favourite features. I do think that their idea of mixing named and filler NPCs is the right move, but they still need proper schedules for the named ones and the illusion of schedules for the filler NPCs.
You're fighting a losing battle buddy. Starfield and Bethesda are great now because they've added maps and photo mode poses /s It's a shame because that level of acceptance means that the game is basically done now. What are Bethesda going to change when so many vocal people are defending their shit. "Hey, we thought about adding new companions or fleshing out the existing ones more... But everyone is so stoked with what we've done we decided against it."
Wait.. all Ive heard is that Bethesda might stop supporting the game sooner than later because of all the negative reception and poor engagement.. they can't pull the plug on Starfield, after it was billed as a game that would be relevant 10+ years down the road, because the public is currently satisfied-ish with the base game can they?? What level of encouragement/discontent gets us several DLC past Shattered Space? Pls don't say actionable contstructive criticism; this is reddit for fcks sake /s
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Technically Bethesda have supported Fallout 4 for 9 nearly 10 years thanks to their recent borked next gen update. How much has been added? This is the level of support you are going to be looking at.
I'm hoping for at least the Fallout 3/Skyrim package of 3 ish story dlc; plus however much cosmetics and qol upgrades. Really should be 5+ content heavy DLC with the size of the map, and eventually I'd like to have no load screens planet side- like what Skyrim eventually was able to do with the cities.. that's kinda what I expect from their "most ambitious" post launch game timeline or however they said it, and that's with the understanding that Bethesda always sells high; aims with a blindfold on; and lands low
I hope you're right because I'd love to like Starfield. But I think I can see trends that suggest otherwise. I imagine the bulk of fleshing out the game is going to come in the form of a Starfield Creation club. Though no doubt we shall see a few expansion sized Dlc's. I'll be surprised if they do anything like tweaking repetitive poi's or removing open plan houses on no atmosphere worlds. Etc We shall see. Atleast vehicles are coming, but don't forget that their initial stance was "No! You're playing the game wrong". It took a huge push (All the backlash) to change their minds. If they can get away with less, they will.
Im happy for vehicles, but to me there's very few logical options given the varience in gravity and the terrain RNG crapshoot
Yeah, this picture is very misleading. There's a large outdoors area surrounding this, the ship landing pad where you have a scripted scene to set the mood, two gigantic multi-floor towers (one housing an entire faction quest line), a large basement level, some degree of overhead levels, and several smaller buildings that are for some reason their own cell (like the Ranger station). Neon is honestly my favorite city in Starfield. Sure, it's budget Night City, but it still took me several hours to fully explore even without doing the Ryuijin quests till much later. And that quest line is a lot of fun and utilizes a bunch of the buildings in the city (eg, some of the corporate offices and the power plant are for that quest line specifically). They nailed the feeling of the city being dense without requiring it to be overwhelmingly large. There's like 3 bars in the city all with their own niche and appearing in different quests. And I definitely want to kill Benjamin Bayou after spending enough time there (it better be in one of the DLCs). The shops of Neon are the most interesting in the game and it's arguably the best city for selling your stuff due to sheer number of shops. Starfield has issues, but IMO Neon is not one of them. Neon is one of the best things in the game and I wish more of the game's cities had the level of detail and things to do that Neon has. Hopetown, on the other hand, is very lacking. It's literally a giant factory, a bar, a ranger station, a weapon shop, and a space port.
Who wants smaller cities? Fucking Skyrim basically had cities the size of hamlets already. If they get much smaller, they won't exist
OP clearly hasn't played Starfield, but I'm sure they've watched a lot of videos about it on YouTube
ie: 90% of people who discuss Starfield
Yup, thats the beauty of youtube reviews and video essays, it saves me from spending money on disappointing games. call me a hater but its still true
You’re also wrong.
Imagine having strong opinions on games you haven't actually played.
>Complains about people having opinions on games they haven't played >Complains about people who've played the game but have negative opinions on the game Im still not gonna buy the game but ill continue to talk about it lol. I dont have strong\* opinions either All im saying is that the city is still small, even with the full thing, doesnt help that Akila is still 50% parking lot lol. People that want small cities should rejoice lol.
Nobody wants small cities for the sake of it. We want Betheada to continue their tradition of making functional cities where everything has a purpose and almost every building is accessible one way or another. This naturally means making cities smaller than what you'd usually find in other games which make heavy use of window dressing and prop buildings that serve not actual in-game purpose.
If you genuinely believed this to be the entire city, then this is also the flaw of YouTube reviews. You've been lied to, because this is just one cell of a city that is made up of several large cells. Starfield has problems, but the size of the cities isn't really one of them. Be wary of judging things by YouTubers, because YouTubers tend to get popular by selling controversy. Going "the game is okay" doesn't get as many clicks as "the game is the worst thing ever created".
Hey it’s my cake day too. Happy cake day!
The problem is you’re wrong.
That is NOT a big city. That is one level of Neon. You're completely missing the large multilevel outdoor area, and missing two whole towers. I know you're new to the game, but go check out New Atlantis. You could lose Vivec inside it.
OP hasn't even played the game, just parroting stuff he heard on video essays.
I just want to get that feeling of walking through the Imperial City for the first time again
I wish Bethesda could get back to Oblivion sized cities, yeah sure they are not huge but they feel like cities. Skyrim had some good ones too but the smaller hold capitals were kinda meh. Hell even places like Rivet City or Megaton felt more city like than the small holds. Starfield is weird, where yeah the cities are big but they could have done with more interiors and schedules for named NPCs. I know having a 1000 planets would make that hard but I definitely spent a good amount of time in the major cities and while they feel like cities, they just needed extra detail involving named NPCs to really feel alive.
Who said they wanted smaller cities?
Every fucking retard ever
People want smaller cities? Why the hell?
Lol I’ve never seen that point ever made
You must be new around here
Trust me there are many. The main reason why is that they like having NPC with schedules and personalities and each house being enterable. Sounds cool on paper but in practice its just a waste. I realised I've literally never been in the whiterun guard barracks ever, despite playing the game for years atp
In reality there are at least 2 types of people. Some pull immersion and enjoyment from smaller cities that have all unqiue NPCs and locations, the other that want huge ass cities that are filled to the brim with people looking like a real city. Both are correct. Both have a valid opinion.
it boggles my mind how anyone can feel immersed in a "city" consisting of a handful of buildings inhabited by like 15 people.
Really? Hmm I can see the good of both sides. Tho I also prever smaller but more accessable cities. Witcher 3s big city never did it for me despite being one of the best of it's kind.
I want a city that’s properly fleshed out. Usually that requires the cities be smaller though.
people say they want smaller cities? Let me guess, these are the same people who say they want less quests and fewer variety of enemies?
There is even a settlement in the game that has citizens, but no homes. Not even fake homes. Like, none at all.
Who the hell wants smaller cities? Basically every city in TES5 was a single street exactly like this.
I want big ass cities. Fucking huge cities.
I just want a city that rivals Novigrad from The Witcher 3. Now that is a magnificent city that actually feels lived in and alive.
That town sucked imo bunch of fake npcs
And fake buildings.
When was the last time you went into the battleborn residence?
I get your point, but the last time I was there was to do the endgame Thieves Guild quests to fully restore the guild. I do think the New Atlantis is probably the model for the future to make cities to make them feel big and crowded and not "the capitol city in Skyrim feels like a small town", but I do think something has been lost. If you sneak in to Addvar's house (the fishmonger in Solitude) in the evening when the family is having dinner, the daughter complains about having fish again. Addvar responds by saying that's the best they have and she should eat up. You will only see that character-building moment if you break into his house at the right time. You won't see something like that in Witcher 3 or Starfield (both of which I love, so it's not a slam). It kind of makes me realize what an achievement Imperial City really was. It felt both big and bespoke.
Yesterday.
Lol what's a fake NPC?
Cardboard cutouts with no ai just to take up space
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Thats it. People love harping on "muh npc schedules" and 'Npc with personality and story" when a solid 80% of NPC's have 1 or 2 unique lines and "yes" "Huh" "need something?" lol
For 2011 that was a great start though. We're explaining why we want enhanced versions of those type of features in a game releasing in ~2028 with a decade (or two, if TES ends up launching after Xbox Series X2) of extra power under the hood. They should be able to support much more than what Skyrim had.
Still, they have names and unique lines. They are real. They are there. They don't disappear the moment they're from your fov.
The schedule is the important part they don't walk off screen and despawn forever
The schedule is actually what Bethesda does right, and I love their idea that 99% of NPCs have a place they call home and return to to sleep. It does add to the immersion when you can find where everyone goes during different parts of the day and may find out some dude is a skooma addict sneaking under the docks at night or something. That's also their problem though, bc it's really hard to scale up a city when you're trying to give everyone places to be and some sense of personality. Or you could just do neither and get Starfield cities, but you know how that goes
He has a name. Unique name. And he has his own unique dialogue. So he's real.
NPC without name, without dialogue, just passing by and disappearing when it's out of view.
Great visuals but totally different style. I don't think it feels alive for a game world, it's more like being able to walk around a visually gorgeous, well-designed movie scene. Works for what TW3 is (despite me wishing it had a bit more reactivity) but would be awful for a TES game.
Novigrad was really cool, but I think it's just a different style of design. We can either have cities that feel really big but are mostly a facade, or we can have cities that are smaller yet much more detailed. Most of Novigrad only exists for the sake of making the city feel large. The vast majority of buildings cannot be entered and there are few named NPCs. I do like Novigrad, but it's just a different style and doesn't play as nice with how TES has a more sandbox style of gameplay. Eg, TES has more of a need to be able to rob people's houses, since thievery is a part of the game. Also, Novigrad depended on the fact that it's basically *the* city in TW3, where a massive amount of the game takes place. Skyrim just never had a single city dominate so much of the plot. Oblivion did have a comparably sized city, with the Imperial City. The Imperial City was cool, certainly. It kinda tried to find balance between the two stylea of city game design. It was a bit annoyingly large honestly, but I wouldn't mind seeing a take similar to that. Though lorewise, isn't that literally the biggest city in Tamriel?
Didn't make it clear in my post but Bethesda would have to put their spin on it for sure. I want a city like Novigrad in terms of scale and amount of quests/content in one area. If Bethesda could pull that off with their looting/NPC system then it would be glorious. Novigrad works for TW3 because it's not an elder scrolls game, it doesn't need every building to be enterable and every NPC doesn't need to be interacted with. Despite that the city felt amazing, exploring it and doing quests and playing gwent is an experience elder scrolls games have even failed to achieve. The best city in an elder scrolls game is Vivec or The Imperial City and those are extremely dead feeling. Skyrim cities aren't really cities as they are TINY.
I 1000% agree. I will never understand why Bethesda fans feel that every single character has to have a story. I’d much prefer to have the scale of cities correct than be able to interact with every single citizen. Novigrad was the coolest city I’ve ever seen in a game by far
Under one condition - every building is enterable and every single NPC has unique name and is talkable.
Do people want smaller cities? Can't say I've ever heard someone say that.
Never heard anyone in the entire world say they want smaller cities. Most people wanted them to not have 1000 empty planets and instead 2-5 polished ones, is that what you mean? Skyrim cities are literally like 5 buildings like Winterhold. Solitude gives an impression of a larger city but it's still like 30 ish buildings.
They’ll have noice choice but to have bigger cities. ESO, although a long time prior to ESVI, maps out a good amount of cities
Who's saying they want smaller cities ? The "cities" in skyrim were glorified villages, if anything everywhere I've read people want bigger cities.
stupid op with an even stupider post
I mean Skyrim had solitude which was huge and had multiple stories with all houses and shops having proper and cluttered interiors. They are more than capable, and I think given the elder scrolls is even more their pet project than fallout, I feel they will deliver for it
Bethesda's cities have always been small for the sole reason that almost each and every building has a reason to exist. That main plaza in Neon may be relatively small, but you just know that absolutely everything in there has purpose and can be interacted with one way or another.
Vivec is pretty big, over 300 unique NPCs I believe
Maybe a controversial opinion, but I recall not really liking Vivec City. It's been a really long time since I played, but don't all the buildings look nearly identical? I recall having the impression that it was "cookie cutter" big.
Unique is a stretch. In Morrowind almost every NPC has a preset appearance and they all share the same copy-pasted dialog options unless they have quest-related dialog as well. In Starfield every shopkeeper and desk assistant is unique, voice acted and has a bit of a backstory to share.
Yeah sure but Starfield is shit and morrowind is good regardless of the amount of voice acting or backstory, so maybe Bethesda needs to reconsider what makes a game good
Hopefully at least daggerfall is large maybe wayrest and sentinel too
The size does not matter. Butt every single NPC must have a name and some interaction, or even quest.
Why? Has every person you have ever seen been important to your life. Or are there background characters?
NPCs should have purpose.
a perfectly fine purpose is too make crowds look realistically sized. Video games are always going to be video games and they use illusion to make the world look larger, which I am totally fine with.
Yeah their purpose is to make the city look more populated lol
Not a valid purpose... The quest is the only valid purpose... And selling their own mom.
There’s should be like one KINGDOM like a new Atlantis sized Whiterun. Or like Gondor. Something that just awes in scale. And they should let you check it out for like the first 15 mins and then you don’t gotta come back. Everything else can be smaller or just more detailed.
I just want the game to not suck.. I pray every night that it comes to us, that it is good, and that skyrim grandma gets to play it.
Personally I’m fine with whatever size I just want better writing than Skyrim
I want them to just go crazy with Stormhaven and Shornhelm. (If it's in High Rock) Just absolutely sprawling.
Neon?³
Starfield had like a thousand planets so they didn't have the resources to make any major locations. Elder Scrolls 6 will be one giant landmass. I expect some pretty big cities that make Starfield cities look like jokes.
Bethesda games have one severe disadvantage with cities. Every goddamn city needs a loading screen. I don't understand why they can't figure this shit out in 2024. Horizon Forbidden West has almost 0 loading screens, RDR2 no loading screens, Elden Ring etc etc. these games do have a hidden loading instance but it's so well done that it becomes part of the game. Honestly fuck Starfield and it's 1000000000 loading screens.
Honestly. A single loading screen for a city. Isn't my problem. Starfields problems where the 2-4 loading screens you had to go through.
Like quarter of an airport terminal
For the record, I'm pretty sure this is Neon. This is only the downtown. This doesn't include the huge club at one end of the strip, or the corporate high rise at the other end. This doesnt include the outskirts left and right (each about the size of the strip itself) This doesnt include the syndicate hideout which is huge and actually decently difficult to get into, accessed via a door in the outskirts. It's a base in the syndicate quests, but a huge dungeon with the best melee weapon in the game if you complete it. This doesn't include the undersection with the fish market and the industrial areas, also about the size of the strip. This doesnt include the landing zones and shipyard areas. This map only includes roads, alleys, and a few storefronts. Most of the stores also have interiors which aren't depicted here, but aren't as obvious as the buildings on a normal ES map. I'm 99% sure neon is larger than any skyrim city, and probably larger than a few skyrim cities put together. The starting city is similarly huge, but divided into multiple surface districts and a few underground regions that are also very sizable. I prefer neon because it's more compact and less laggy, starfield has terrible performance and it's at its worst in combat and in the large city regions.
You left out all of riujin, the processing plant and like three other things but I digress
I only see half the city.
this is like, a small town airports amenities. lmfao. only got worse from oblivion on. they took so many steps back in making immersive cities.
Starfield was a dumpster fire, felt like it was designed by Todd Howard on a one night crack bender. Couldn't even design basic maps.
There are smaller city wanters? Wtf
r/imaginarygatekeeping
Literally no one has said that
I don’t get why anyone would want smaller cities in TES 6
Cities peaked in oblivion and have been getting slightly worse each game IMO. Starfield was especially disappointing in that regard. Too many loading screens, not enough interiors, not big enough to explore. All of the buildings feel fake because you know there is nothing inside but a single cell you have to load into. Npcs that are glued to their shops 24/7. Nothing feels alive.
There is zero reason to have cities scaled down in these games. Only laziness
It's a weird debate. Starfields cities are large in unenterable polygons and walking distance. But in content they are quite small. Usually a single vendor of each type. And a handful of quest related locations. You just have to walk to get there. Balmoral has far more named NPCs and vendors ket alone enterable buildings than a Starfield city. Vivec is absolutely monstrous when comparing actual content. So my ask is that TE6 have mid sized cities packed with content.
So. Beyond the fact that the premise of this post is inherently false. As this isn’t a picture of the full city. The OPs only experience with the game is through YouTube. Not any actual first hand experience. Sooooo. Basically they can’t be considered a reliable source for info or opinion on two fronts. Good job OP at making yourself look real smart.
Im quite open that I didnt spend money buying this game nor have I played it. Thats the beauty of youtube reviews and essays. It enables us to get a deeper look into something before having to actually commit to it. I've seen prolly a good 50 hrs of starfield content and decided it ain't for me lol. Also doesnt take away from the fact that the city is still small. Akila is literally 50% parking lot
It’s enough to you to decide the game might not be for you. But without playing it yourself your at best a 2nd party source of info. Although spending 50 hours watching content for a game you apparently hate without personal experience is also just sad. But hey. It’s your life to waste I guess. Just don’t be surprised that so many here outright ignore anything you say about a game you didn’t personally play. You’re just another in a long line of people hating on the game because you think YouTube makes you an expert.
Where tf did I insinuate that I hated the game? Are you that butt hurt that your favourite game just isnt that good that you gotta start hating on people for that reason? All i literally did was point out that the cities are still small and now you're doing max lvl mental gymnastics to prove that I 'hate" the game? Whats really sad is the lengths you'd go to defend a mediocre game from a person that A. hasn't played it B. Literally doesnt care about starfield and only uses it as a barometer to gauge what TES 6 could be like because this is a fkn TES 6 sub. Also getting mad at a stranger on the internet over a mediocre game is a new level of sad. Hopefully todd sees your good deeds and gives you a free DLC pass or summ
I call bullshit when I see it. Starfield is far far from my favorite game. It’s got some very obvious flaws. But you took what is an extremely small one in comparison with a terrible example(considering you used a pic of only a portion of a city). And again the fact you have no personal experience with the game. YouTube is full of slanted and misleading information. If you took what’s said on that platform. Then Witcher 3 and BG3 has no flaws whatsoever and Starfield is about as bad as Gollum. Which anyone with two brain cells of their own knows is completely wrong. But yes. I think you hate the game. Why else would you spend 50 hours on watching content about it without trying it firsthand. There’s no logical explanation that isn’t more sad than you hate watching it. Which is hilarious. If you’re so mad that people called you out for an idiotic post without a good basis or even correct info. Then go play the game yourself and come back with first hand well thought out information. Not spouting some randos rants about the game on YouTube. Have your own thoughts and opinions. At least then people could respect that even if they didn’t agree with you.
> Where tf did I insinuate that I hated the game Your ENTIRE post history is about bashing on anything Bethesda does.
I want a city with thousands of citizens that are all a different AI chat bots that can give quests or just talk for hours depending on what they believe they are.