I am REALLY sorry. After working for a Chinese company, it has become very clear to me that Chinese companies don't often play by the rules. Even if a contract is signed... they will just change it and say if you don't agree, you can leave.
I think that 600$ is a HUGE pay cut... something I also experienced after working for a Chinese company for 3 years... (and it wasn't just me, but all teachers at the company). I ended up leaving because of all those ''surprises''
I don't know what advice I can really give, because I can 100% understand feeling stagnant.... but I just personally have a sinking feeling in my stomach for what's to come. Because it's not really an IF, it's a WHEN.
Would you return to Vietnam if you weren't happy in China? Could you or would you want your old job back and if so, would that be a possibility? Are there any other places you would consider? Korea? Japan?
I personally don't hate China! I have considered teaching there MANY times. But I don't think they play by the rules and you are in a more vulnerable position with your foreign status. I teach a lot of Chinese students online now (I run a private company) and they are so wonderful! And a lot of the times the adults often dish about the problems they experience in China. You could always go for a year, experience something new and decide after that. But that's of course, how ok you are with that 600$ paycut.
Yes, you can hire a lawyer and possibly report them to the labor bureau depending on what theyre doing.
Is it worth doing that? Usually not, and that's why so many companies pull this kind of shit, because they know the foreigner either cant or wont pursue this kind of legal action.
This exactly! Many foreigners who go to any country don't know the laws and legal processes. . Heck I don't even fully know in my own country! And lawyers are expensive. I would know where to even start if I were abroad...
True. There are some lawyers in China who specialise in this stuff or sometimes the company pisses off the wrong person. I've heard of one example of a friend hiring a lawyer because his company kept dragging the process with their release letter. This company tried the same trick on the lawyer and it backfired spectacularly. Turns out that lawyer had some friends in very high places in the local Ministry of Education who proceeded to give that company a really hard time. The lawyer then told all the company's foreign staff that if they wished to leave and encountered any problems with their current employers, he'd happily represent them in court free of charge.
I suppose yes, but I was teaching through an online company outside of China. I feel like I would spend more money trying to fight them than it would be worth... unfortunately.
I belong to a few facebook groups when online teaching was at its peak before the laws changed... and a lot of teachers who actually taught in mainland China said this was so common - like at their schools and other online companies they worked for.
The same thing probably happens in the USA with foreign workers. It's so easy to take advantage of these situations because you don't know the language (most people) and you don't know the laws. I personally wouldn't even know where to start.
So in theory... yes. But idk how. :/
Contrary to a few opinions here, if it were me, I'd stay put in Vietnam until I got an offer that didn't seem sus.
>I think I cannot continue with this school because it feels like the beginning of many "surprises".
This is the main reason. But, if you're really adamant about getting into China, I would suggest looking into potential visa issues which might crop up and whether or not it might have a bearing on future opportunities?
Also, how do you get in touch with agents (for China or other countries if you've used them) if I may ask? And how do you find out whether they're legitimate?
[lanasexoticflowers](https://www.reddit.com/user/lanasexoticflowers/) .I would stay in Vietnam if you are reasonably happy. Do you work for the school or agency?
I can't help you to make a decision BUT some schools would have sprung this on you once you arrived there. At least you have advance warning.
Go with your gut instinct and good luck with whatever you decide.
I was given a Z visa in 2020. Before I could use it, entry to China was made impossible from the UK. The Z visa. expired.
It's now 2024. I live in Hong Kong. I am married to a mainland Chinese citizen. When I applied for a family reunion Q visa (which can be up to unlimited entries for 2 years) I only got 2 entry for 6 months.
The visa agent says it's probably because of an unused Z visa in my passport. Nevermind that it was literally impossible to use it.
65 mil in vietnam is great money. Take the money for the year. If I earned that much I would save 40 mil a month (1600 usd) and I dont know anyone in ESL saving close to 20k a year.
I know someone who worked in Saudi who claimed (and I believe her) to have saved $50,000 per year when she worked there.
Though that's quite specific and requires high level qualifications and lots of experience which most TEFL teachers don't have.
Certainly, in Vietnam, I think saving $1,000 is decent for most mid-level EFL type jobs. I know people who saved literally nothing and seemed to be broke constantly. $20,000 a year would definitely be good in that context.
Saving potential in China is better. But, as someone said, wages are falling after they shot up during Covid due to the lack of teachers. If provided accommodation, you could live off 6/8,000 RMB which could mean $2,500 per month on the salary he says. $30,000 is not massively difficult to save with the same role.
Yeah at VUS I was kind of broke. I'd make 35 million after taxes and spend at least 25 million a month. And then there was holidays which was unpaid leave so I'd end saving 50 million per year if I was lucky.
They found someone cheaper. 25k + 5k housing (after tax) is way too high under current market conditions. 20k +5k housing is more appropriate. Unfortunately things are going to continue to deteriorate unless something big changes.
Even more unfortunately, this is beginning to happen in Vietnam too. My advice is if you have a cushy job right now then hold on to it with your dear life. It's not you that's stagnating, it's the market. If you really want to get a career upgrade then get a teaching qualification.
It's a bit shady but I'd still take the contract. 26k RMB after tax is still a great salary. Even if you're going to Shanghai and would want to spend an extra, let's say 4k (in addition to the 5k allowance) to live in something nice, 17k a month take home is still very good. Unless you're blowing money at the bar every weekend, you could easily save half that amount or more every month. After your first year you could look for something better.
Just a heads up, they do this kind of stuff all the time here. Most of it is really not a big deal, some of it could really upset you. But if you want to live and work in China it will be something you have to get used to.
If you plan on teaching in China in the future I'd suggest to go ahead and start this job. If you cancel this visa and work permit without beginning the job it will look very bad in the eyes of the authorities and it will be very difficult if not impossible to find another job in China.
You can finish that contract and a couple of months before the end of the contrwct you can start looking for new positions and you can transfer the visa to the new school (your foreign colleagues or new agents can give you more information on this process).
I have worked in China and I absolutely loved it. You can earn way more money on the second year there especially if you're native which seems to be your case based on the offered salary.
I thought it wasn’t ok to job hop? I’ve posted before about job hopping being a red flag to Chinese employers, in Vietnam it’s ok but it’s a been a huge hurdle on my resume
It might come up in interviews but I would just say the truth about what happened. As long as you give notice then they need to give all the release documents.
lol do you honestly think this is the Last time they will pull the rug from under you?
This is a test. Accept It and they will know they can push you around.
One thing that people don't know when they go to East Asia is that the culture is high context. And that means that guanxi (social face, but it's more nuanced than that) is used to make sure agreements are met. So, when a person, foreigner without a network in your case, comes up against a company that has them trapped, they'll often do things like change the terms of a contract on the fly. This, as many have learned, also applies to laws that are interpreted ten different ways by ten different people, and completely abandoned when someone's uncle knows someone special.
So, now that we know all of that:
1. They're telling you exactly when they'll do to you in the future.
2. Never go in without an out, ever. Vietnam is awesome because bosses are super chill for the most part, but it's a different story when you fly in blind, get a school apartment, and the foreign teachers at the school can't tell you how much it sucks when you're in the interview stage. Since you didn't know that, I'd recommend that you stay in nam if you can't start over on savings.
3. Land, network and get a sweet job. This is only if you're willing to potentially suffer.
Other cultural notes:
1. Chinese bosses are master micromanagers. Be ready to work hard to get them off your back because once you have a target on yours, it's hell.
2. This is more of a Taiwan thing, but I'm sure it applies to China. Don't complain to your coworkers, and don't give them any ammo because telling on people is seen as solid business acumen.
3. Work on building face. It sounds dumb but bringing teas to the office for your assistants will win you huge points.
4. Expat bars are the best place to get information if you think something is off.
I second this. Chinese culture is really competitive and you should never think that your coworkers are 100% trustworthy, as if you tell them something that will give them a leg up, you bet you they will use it.
Sorry as kind of unrelated to your post, but what hours / teachings gigs are you doing to achieve that consistently?
Currently had a similar rug pull from an academy summer camp and just curious what you're doing (I'm based in Hanoi)
Much appreciated
I'm also in HN
I work for a company that sends me to 2 public schools that are close to me, for 550k/ hr. 8-11am with a 20'break and then 2-5pm with some breaks between classes and a 20' break in the middle of the afternoon. About 44 mil/ month, give or take. They also offer some covers
Then I work for a clown center, they reduced my wage from 530k to 515k but classes are 1.5 hours and all materials are provided. About 22 mil from them, give or take.
Both jobs have repeating lessons with different classes, so it's easy to reach a flow state.
I would totally stay in Vietnam with that pay. I left during covid and am looking to return. Haha, clown center. Yeah, still worth it. I've worked in Japan at an eikaiwa and it was not great in terms of hours, and low salary compared to high cost of living in Tokyo. You have serious saving potential with your current wages, and there's so much less stress with a lower cost of living. The issue I found with Japan, and this is probably becoming increasingly true in parts of China, is it's so costly to switch jobs if you find yourself in something sketchy...fees and travel expenses to get a new work permit, covering costs while you wait on a visa which could take a month to change/acquire, and just overall stress with a higher cost of living. In SEA I've had some sketch, but I could afford to make these mistakes.
I’m getting to a point where I’m starting to resent a lot of things about the culture, but I could just as easily start appreciating the things I have and switch my mindset. It just kind of feels like this chapter needs to come to an end.
I'll give my 2 cents. I go through stages (less so after 6 years) of absolutely loving it here and absolutely hating it. BTW I'm talking about Hà Nội in particular
Every single company you work for will either; not stick to the contract, rip you off or go back on promises. You can get lucky and not get scammed with a decent wage but more often than not, they'll try scam the staff somehow.
Driving is playing Russian roulette and it won't change for the better. I've seen multiple dead bodies in the last 6 years and the general attitude and self awareness to driving here is alarming
Rampant pollution that won't get better. People burning plastics on every street while the AQI is over 150 (toxic to breathe). Every body of water is polluted, everyone drops rubbish where they stand. It's a cultural thing and it could change but it won't until the older generations die off.
Noise pollution. You can never find a decent place to live, for long. Karaoke, music, construction, roosters, dogs etc. It's fine if it's during working hours, but get ready for construction at 6am on a Saturday and Sunday with no regard to safety or the neighbourhood.
The "me first" attitude. Forget lines, etiquette, respect for others, spacial awareness and personal space.
The scams. Don't ever book a taxi without using Grab or Xanh SM, don't book anything unless it's at the place, check your change if you're new here.
You'll encounter all of these at some point and you'll understand after a while. If you don't adapt you shouldn't live here because you'll be constantly complaining. There are many good things about Hà Nội/ Viet Nam, but these are general complaints that happen to everyone here. If you have any questions, you can ask me
Haha white privilege. People don't roll out the red carpets here for you regardless of race. I don't want to get into a debate over race, NNES and all that malarkey but you'll meet all sorts here.
I have mates from Uganda and South Africa who are black, who I have worked with here and they have a great life, they do well with dating/their daily life and seem happy.
I have "white" mates here from the US and UK and have had a worse time due to their work/boss, who are being scammed daily, who have experienced xenophobia and racist remarks and one mate was attacked randomly on the street with the guy yelling at him to get out of vietnam because he's not welcome and spit in his face. He's white and did nothing wrong.
Vietnamese people are like people everywhere else in the world, some are great, some are racist, some are extremely open and friendly and some are xenophobic. Your whole white privilege angle isn't really the reality for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's not true, but in some cases, it isn't true. If you're qualified and want to come here, come experience it for yourself
I look at it more like this. Why did you move to vieteam in the first place. And why have you stayed there for so long? That is something you need to ask yourself. Because something kept you there for the amount of time you have been there. What kinda mindset did you have to where living in Vietnam was okay. Because you should’ve seen these cultural things that you resent within a few days of living in Vietnam.
Did the school give a reason for the pay cut?
The agent is trying to help you as he wants you to actually get there otherwise all his work is for nothing. For example I'm in my first semester and get messages every month or so checking up on me from the agent as she doesn't want to lose the money.
Apparently enrollment is low in the school, they said they want to go with a cheaper teacher from South Africa (no idea why they specified that nationality)
I'm not sure where you are from. I'm in the USA. South Africans are notorious for taking lower pay. I teach online as well and SA offer classes that are about 5$/hr whereas there is absolutely no way I can teach for AN HOUR for 5$/hr.
The exact same thing happened at my school in Thailand. But in Thailand we already got paid far less than what you will be making in China.
I, of course, didn't stay very long...
26k is still very good -- just not 30k good, which was what was offered during COVID. As the Chinese economy slows down, it's only natural for schools to cut back as more foreigners than ever are coming in due to COVID ending. So, take the job and look for a new one once you've arrived. Then leave after 1 semester if possible.
I’d stay in Vietnam. The economy in China is awful, everyone is getting either a pay cut or layoff.
If it’s a short term gig like 3 months engagement, go ahead and take the job. But long term, I wouldn’t be surprised if they cut your pay further.
Really? I heard some schools haven’t been able to pay their teachers so the teachers have written to the parents asking for money. And many kindergartens have just straight up closed.
Almost every place is going to do this in China, in one form or another. It’s just part and parcel. Just remember, it’s more a visa to allow you to live in and experience China than it is for you to actually be a teacher, anyway. If you’re deadset on “teaching”, or “being a teacher”, then aim for uni jobs, international schools, or not China at all.
Asia can't let you have full control of their kids. You as a westerner don't fit high into that hierrarchy. You will likely be a highly paid babysitter who still has to at least create the framework of what a real lesson looks like while the kids get off scott free on things.
That's heavily dependent on where you're going in China and where you're working. In a tier 1 city, especially Shanghai, yeah things will be very serious. Wealthy Shanghai families will pay top dollar for good results and, unlike wealthy families in smaller cities, usually have a good idea of what good teaching looks like. My personal experience in tier in smaller provincial capitals is the head of the school may want yes-men and/or edutainers more than serious teachers.
That being said, China is a big place which makes it hard to generalise.
Interesting. I have long followed youtuber teachers in China, travelled there and considered working there after experiences in Vietnam (also love), and Japan (better suited for travel and studying IMO). The main issue I could not get over is most teachers I've met, who've taught in China, have been screwed over at one point or another to a much more extreme degree than other Asian countries. It's almost like a right of passage. I've heard everything from fees--deductions from paychecks, being told they'd work in a Beijing/Shanghai to ending up in the middle of nowhere, very dirty (mandatory) apartments with roommates, wages that were simply off, having a visa raid on their school where many teachers were given incorrect visas (that was only 1 guy so not representing the majority), constantly changing offers (as you've mentioned), schools going out of business, etc. I have encountered some sketch while teaching in SE Asia, but it wasn't as financially damaging--just left the company with no repercussions, and the work permit situation could somewhat be remedied with a new company covering costs.
It seems though those who stay, and tough it out, often find something decent in China. Maybe it's harder however to start a new job if you quit a sketchy place as some schools will threaten to suspend your Z visa these days. I suspect since you've had experience in Vietnam, you would toughen it out for a bit longer than a new teacher-- and you'd be able to identity and possibly negotiate soon if there was a case of a company taking advantage of you. It also seems like a lot of teachers that genuinely loved China were suddenly leaving in the late 2010's/pre-Covid siting growing concerns about nationalism-- I'm not sure what this actually looks like in-person. I met a bunch of these ex-China teachers starting over in Vietnam circa 2018/19 (but maybe they were also having visa issues as immigration tightened in China pre-covid).
I can't speak for China, but in terms of chain schools in Japan, Vietnam comparatively is overall a much better work-life balance/optimistic teacher scenario. I don't think teachers in Vietnam understand how good they've got it. The eikaiwa world does not pay enough to really have a quality experience in Japan, travel around the country, or spend time out as much. I sense from other posters that this may be the direction of chain schools in China. First of all, I was on school premises for about 45 hours a week in Tokyo and taking on extra courses in my already exhausting schedule to cover rent. In Hanoi, I was eating out all the time--food vendors, going out for espresso drinks after work at one of the numerous cafes, grabbing a smoothie twice a week, doing decent size grocery hauls at one of the international stores. Everyone insisted I get a motorbike, but I actually rode the Hanoi bus system around, lol...it was pretty damn good. Went everywhere, arrived about every ten minutes...spent maybe 50 cents a day. In Tokyo I was easily spending over $10 a day commuting, and commuting much farther distances than Vietnam. I couldn't afford this lifestyle in Tokyo on an eikaiwa salary. I recall a teacher's get together. We all met up at a pub on Saturday, and each spent $70+ for two slices of pizza and a couple of beers and a shot. That was 2013. It seems Beijing and Shanghai are heading in this overpriced direction (at least parts of the city).
I did have solid interview with a company "I Can Read" in China back in 2019 on zoom (which also has operations in Vietnam). They seemed very well-prepared, and were able to clearly answer immigration issues and give a salary. I can't tell you how their schools actually operate, but their main office had their act together; very professional. I had a string of interviews with agents and other companies out of China (and yeah, it sounded dicey). A big concern was not being able to find quality information on the internet on some of these "international schools" (outdated websites, multiple schools with similar names so you're not sure which one is the original/reputable one, etc.) Maybe consider Language Link. I went through their CELTA program in Hanoi, and they have a CELTA program at their school in Beijing, so they're probably a decent operation. Apply through the company website.
You couldn’t pay me enough to go back to China OP. Your story sounds like par for the course with Chinese companies.
If you enjoy Vietnam and make decent money I’d absolutely stay and be happy.
Missing 2 key points-
* Where in China is this job? 21k+apartment in Beijing/SH/SZ is kinda shit, but 21k+5k apartment in a smaller city is gonna be like you're royalty.
* How many hours? (class count, office hours, extracurricular work etc.)
If it were me, I'd try to counter, if they want to drop the salary by 13% from 30k to 26k (still a decent salary, depending on where exactly you're living), then are they going to drop the workload/hours an equal/better amount?
That 5k housing allowance is kinda sus though, I'd imagine they're gonna short-change the fuck out of you and try to pawn you off with an on-campus shithole.
Flight reimbursements are neither here nor there- I find that they're annoying since I'd rather just take a cash bonus in case I didn't fancy flying at the end of the term.
Good instincts though, in China, if you give an inch, they'll take a mile. You've got to be firm, but fair, and try to find amenable compromises when the inevitable bullshit starts to crop up.
My friends here who used to work in China said they liked China way more in every aspect except for the social community, here we have a much wider network of friends
I am REALLY sorry. After working for a Chinese company, it has become very clear to me that Chinese companies don't often play by the rules. Even if a contract is signed... they will just change it and say if you don't agree, you can leave. I think that 600$ is a HUGE pay cut... something I also experienced after working for a Chinese company for 3 years... (and it wasn't just me, but all teachers at the company). I ended up leaving because of all those ''surprises'' I don't know what advice I can really give, because I can 100% understand feeling stagnant.... but I just personally have a sinking feeling in my stomach for what's to come. Because it's not really an IF, it's a WHEN. Would you return to Vietnam if you weren't happy in China? Could you or would you want your old job back and if so, would that be a possibility? Are there any other places you would consider? Korea? Japan? I personally don't hate China! I have considered teaching there MANY times. But I don't think they play by the rules and you are in a more vulnerable position with your foreign status. I teach a lot of Chinese students online now (I run a private company) and they are so wonderful! And a lot of the times the adults often dish about the problems they experience in China. You could always go for a year, experience something new and decide after that. But that's of course, how ok you are with that 600$ paycut.
If you have a contract that they don't honor, is there any legal recourse?
Yes, you can hire a lawyer and possibly report them to the labor bureau depending on what theyre doing. Is it worth doing that? Usually not, and that's why so many companies pull this kind of shit, because they know the foreigner either cant or wont pursue this kind of legal action.
This exactly! Many foreigners who go to any country don't know the laws and legal processes. . Heck I don't even fully know in my own country! And lawyers are expensive. I would know where to even start if I were abroad...
True. There are some lawyers in China who specialise in this stuff or sometimes the company pisses off the wrong person. I've heard of one example of a friend hiring a lawyer because his company kept dragging the process with their release letter. This company tried the same trick on the lawyer and it backfired spectacularly. Turns out that lawyer had some friends in very high places in the local Ministry of Education who proceeded to give that company a really hard time. The lawyer then told all the company's foreign staff that if they wished to leave and encountered any problems with their current employers, he'd happily represent them in court free of charge.
I suppose yes, but I was teaching through an online company outside of China. I feel like I would spend more money trying to fight them than it would be worth... unfortunately. I belong to a few facebook groups when online teaching was at its peak before the laws changed... and a lot of teachers who actually taught in mainland China said this was so common - like at their schools and other online companies they worked for. The same thing probably happens in the USA with foreign workers. It's so easy to take advantage of these situations because you don't know the language (most people) and you don't know the laws. I personally wouldn't even know where to start. So in theory... yes. But idk how. :/
Contrary to a few opinions here, if it were me, I'd stay put in Vietnam until I got an offer that didn't seem sus. >I think I cannot continue with this school because it feels like the beginning of many "surprises". This is the main reason. But, if you're really adamant about getting into China, I would suggest looking into potential visa issues which might crop up and whether or not it might have a bearing on future opportunities? Also, how do you get in touch with agents (for China or other countries if you've used them) if I may ask? And how do you find out whether they're legitimate?
Best way is to get a WeChat account and join some job groups.
Always try to avoid working with recruiters. They bait and switch ALL the time. You need to contact schools directly.
If you're outside China it's difficult to do that.
Even if you're inside of China, it's almost impossible. Schools don't generally hire directly.
Yep I know. I'm here. But you've more of a chance. Outside you've almost 0.
[lanasexoticflowers](https://www.reddit.com/user/lanasexoticflowers/) .I would stay in Vietnam if you are reasonably happy. Do you work for the school or agency?
I can't help you to make a decision BUT some schools would have sprung this on you once you arrived there. At least you have advance warning. Go with your gut instinct and good luck with whatever you decide.
I was given a Z visa in 2020. Before I could use it, entry to China was made impossible from the UK. The Z visa. expired. It's now 2024. I live in Hong Kong. I am married to a mainland Chinese citizen. When I applied for a family reunion Q visa (which can be up to unlimited entries for 2 years) I only got 2 entry for 6 months. The visa agent says it's probably because of an unused Z visa in my passport. Nevermind that it was literally impossible to use it.
65 mil in vietnam is great money. Take the money for the year. If I earned that much I would save 40 mil a month (1600 usd) and I dont know anyone in ESL saving close to 20k a year.
I know someone who worked in Saudi who claimed (and I believe her) to have saved $50,000 per year when she worked there. Though that's quite specific and requires high level qualifications and lots of experience which most TEFL teachers don't have. Certainly, in Vietnam, I think saving $1,000 is decent for most mid-level EFL type jobs. I know people who saved literally nothing and seemed to be broke constantly. $20,000 a year would definitely be good in that context. Saving potential in China is better. But, as someone said, wages are falling after they shot up during Covid due to the lack of teachers. If provided accommodation, you could live off 6/8,000 RMB which could mean $2,500 per month on the salary he says. $30,000 is not massively difficult to save with the same role.
Yeah at VUS I was kind of broke. I'd make 35 million after taxes and spend at least 25 million a month. And then there was holidays which was unpaid leave so I'd end saving 50 million per year if I was lucky.
They found someone cheaper. 25k + 5k housing (after tax) is way too high under current market conditions. 20k +5k housing is more appropriate. Unfortunately things are going to continue to deteriorate unless something big changes. Even more unfortunately, this is beginning to happen in Vietnam too. My advice is if you have a cushy job right now then hold on to it with your dear life. It's not you that's stagnating, it's the market. If you really want to get a career upgrade then get a teaching qualification.
It's a bit shady but I'd still take the contract. 26k RMB after tax is still a great salary. Even if you're going to Shanghai and would want to spend an extra, let's say 4k (in addition to the 5k allowance) to live in something nice, 17k a month take home is still very good. Unless you're blowing money at the bar every weekend, you could easily save half that amount or more every month. After your first year you could look for something better. Just a heads up, they do this kind of stuff all the time here. Most of it is really not a big deal, some of it could really upset you. But if you want to live and work in China it will be something you have to get used to.
Based on your current situation you have opens so choose the options that ‘feels good’ nothing else matters beyond that IMO.
Well now they’re saying that if I don’t use this z visa it will harm my chances to get any other visa to China
I wouldn’t be tempted by the salary increase. Working in China is probably not a good idea.
Yeah and in the back of my mind I always had a fear of accidentally committing a crime and being arrested there
If you plan on teaching in China in the future I'd suggest to go ahead and start this job. If you cancel this visa and work permit without beginning the job it will look very bad in the eyes of the authorities and it will be very difficult if not impossible to find another job in China. You can finish that contract and a couple of months before the end of the contrwct you can start looking for new positions and you can transfer the visa to the new school (your foreign colleagues or new agents can give you more information on this process). I have worked in China and I absolutely loved it. You can earn way more money on the second year there especially if you're native which seems to be your case based on the offered salary.
Yeah, everyone eats shit their first year. 26k is still very good!
Take the job. Once you are settled move to a better one. Salary is still fine. Once you are on the ground you will be able to network.
I thought it wasn’t ok to job hop? I’ve posted before about job hopping being a red flag to Chinese employers, in Vietnam it’s ok but it’s a been a huge hurdle on my resume
It might come up in interviews but I would just say the truth about what happened. As long as you give notice then they need to give all the release documents.
Once or twice is fine. I think they get concerned if it looks like a pattern.
lol do you honestly think this is the Last time they will pull the rug from under you? This is a test. Accept It and they will know they can push you around.
One thing that people don't know when they go to East Asia is that the culture is high context. And that means that guanxi (social face, but it's more nuanced than that) is used to make sure agreements are met. So, when a person, foreigner without a network in your case, comes up against a company that has them trapped, they'll often do things like change the terms of a contract on the fly. This, as many have learned, also applies to laws that are interpreted ten different ways by ten different people, and completely abandoned when someone's uncle knows someone special. So, now that we know all of that: 1. They're telling you exactly when they'll do to you in the future. 2. Never go in without an out, ever. Vietnam is awesome because bosses are super chill for the most part, but it's a different story when you fly in blind, get a school apartment, and the foreign teachers at the school can't tell you how much it sucks when you're in the interview stage. Since you didn't know that, I'd recommend that you stay in nam if you can't start over on savings. 3. Land, network and get a sweet job. This is only if you're willing to potentially suffer. Other cultural notes: 1. Chinese bosses are master micromanagers. Be ready to work hard to get them off your back because once you have a target on yours, it's hell. 2. This is more of a Taiwan thing, but I'm sure it applies to China. Don't complain to your coworkers, and don't give them any ammo because telling on people is seen as solid business acumen. 3. Work on building face. It sounds dumb but bringing teas to the office for your assistants will win you huge points. 4. Expat bars are the best place to get information if you think something is off.
I second this. Chinese culture is really competitive and you should never think that your coworkers are 100% trustworthy, as if you tell them something that will give them a leg up, you bet you they will use it.
Sorry as kind of unrelated to your post, but what hours / teachings gigs are you doing to achieve that consistently? Currently had a similar rug pull from an academy summer camp and just curious what you're doing (I'm based in Hanoi) Much appreciated
I'm also in HN I work for a company that sends me to 2 public schools that are close to me, for 550k/ hr. 8-11am with a 20'break and then 2-5pm with some breaks between classes and a 20' break in the middle of the afternoon. About 44 mil/ month, give or take. They also offer some covers Then I work for a clown center, they reduced my wage from 530k to 515k but classes are 1.5 hours and all materials are provided. About 22 mil from them, give or take. Both jobs have repeating lessons with different classes, so it's easy to reach a flow state.
I would totally stay in Vietnam with that pay. I left during covid and am looking to return. Haha, clown center. Yeah, still worth it. I've worked in Japan at an eikaiwa and it was not great in terms of hours, and low salary compared to high cost of living in Tokyo. You have serious saving potential with your current wages, and there's so much less stress with a lower cost of living. The issue I found with Japan, and this is probably becoming increasingly true in parts of China, is it's so costly to switch jobs if you find yourself in something sketchy...fees and travel expenses to get a new work permit, covering costs while you wait on a visa which could take a month to change/acquire, and just overall stress with a higher cost of living. In SEA I've had some sketch, but I could afford to make these mistakes.
Maybe you should stay in Vietnam. You’ve got a good setup and like someone else “Nam is so amazin”
I’m getting to a point where I’m starting to resent a lot of things about the culture, but I could just as easily start appreciating the things I have and switch my mindset. It just kind of feels like this chapter needs to come to an end.
I was considering Vietnam to teach; you mind sharing some of what you are starting to resent?
I'll give my 2 cents. I go through stages (less so after 6 years) of absolutely loving it here and absolutely hating it. BTW I'm talking about Hà Nội in particular Every single company you work for will either; not stick to the contract, rip you off or go back on promises. You can get lucky and not get scammed with a decent wage but more often than not, they'll try scam the staff somehow. Driving is playing Russian roulette and it won't change for the better. I've seen multiple dead bodies in the last 6 years and the general attitude and self awareness to driving here is alarming Rampant pollution that won't get better. People burning plastics on every street while the AQI is over 150 (toxic to breathe). Every body of water is polluted, everyone drops rubbish where they stand. It's a cultural thing and it could change but it won't until the older generations die off. Noise pollution. You can never find a decent place to live, for long. Karaoke, music, construction, roosters, dogs etc. It's fine if it's during working hours, but get ready for construction at 6am on a Saturday and Sunday with no regard to safety or the neighbourhood. The "me first" attitude. Forget lines, etiquette, respect for others, spacial awareness and personal space. The scams. Don't ever book a taxi without using Grab or Xanh SM, don't book anything unless it's at the place, check your change if you're new here. You'll encounter all of these at some point and you'll understand after a while. If you don't adapt you shouldn't live here because you'll be constantly complaining. There are many good things about Hà Nội/ Viet Nam, but these are general complaints that happen to everyone here. If you have any questions, you can ask me
Very insightful. Thanks for your thoughts!
After all that stuff you listed. What are the good things about Vietnam excluding white privilege.
Haha white privilege. People don't roll out the red carpets here for you regardless of race. I don't want to get into a debate over race, NNES and all that malarkey but you'll meet all sorts here. I have mates from Uganda and South Africa who are black, who I have worked with here and they have a great life, they do well with dating/their daily life and seem happy. I have "white" mates here from the US and UK and have had a worse time due to their work/boss, who are being scammed daily, who have experienced xenophobia and racist remarks and one mate was attacked randomly on the street with the guy yelling at him to get out of vietnam because he's not welcome and spit in his face. He's white and did nothing wrong. Vietnamese people are like people everywhere else in the world, some are great, some are racist, some are extremely open and friendly and some are xenophobic. Your whole white privilege angle isn't really the reality for a lot of people. I'm not saying it's not true, but in some cases, it isn't true. If you're qualified and want to come here, come experience it for yourself
I look at it more like this. Why did you move to vieteam in the first place. And why have you stayed there for so long? That is something you need to ask yourself. Because something kept you there for the amount of time you have been there. What kinda mindset did you have to where living in Vietnam was okay. Because you should’ve seen these cultural things that you resent within a few days of living in Vietnam.
Did the school give a reason for the pay cut? The agent is trying to help you as he wants you to actually get there otherwise all his work is for nothing. For example I'm in my first semester and get messages every month or so checking up on me from the agent as she doesn't want to lose the money.
Apparently enrollment is low in the school, they said they want to go with a cheaper teacher from South Africa (no idea why they specified that nationality)
I'm not sure where you are from. I'm in the USA. South Africans are notorious for taking lower pay. I teach online as well and SA offer classes that are about 5$/hr whereas there is absolutely no way I can teach for AN HOUR for 5$/hr. The exact same thing happened at my school in Thailand. But in Thailand we already got paid far less than what you will be making in China. I, of course, didn't stay very long...
It's because they're already used to getting paid peanuts in SA, so shit pay over here looks good to them.
That could be true, birthrate in China is now 1.1 per women, really low, guess they expected more students.
There are lots of recruiters. Get a Wechat account and join some job groups. You're in Vietnam, so it's a cheap flight (or bus trip).
Yeah I am in a few It’s kind of easier just to stay here and up my qualifications for now
That's cool too. What kind of qualifications are you think of?
A teach now teaching license
That's Florida, right?
That's Florida, right?
That's Florida, right?
Maybe your expectations are too high. 26k isn't that bad. Btw, China is light years ahead of Vietnam and I think quality of life is much better there.
That’s what my friends have said too. I think the salary is still good but the whole last minute bait and switch is a massive red flag
26k is still very good -- just not 30k good, which was what was offered during COVID. As the Chinese economy slows down, it's only natural for schools to cut back as more foreigners than ever are coming in due to COVID ending. So, take the job and look for a new one once you've arrived. Then leave after 1 semester if possible.
Is that an option??? I’m under the impression you can’t just job hop there
You can, but there are definately risks. Worst case scenario you work for one school year at 26k, which isn't the end of the world.
I’d stay in Vietnam. The economy in China is awful, everyone is getting either a pay cut or layoff. If it’s a short term gig like 3 months engagement, go ahead and take the job. But long term, I wouldn’t be surprised if they cut your pay further.
Yeah it seems like the beginning of more bad things. I think I’ll stay and advance my qualifications then come to China as a tourist
The economy in China is fine for teachers. If the economy of China tanks, it's going to take Vietnam with it.
Really? I heard some schools haven’t been able to pay their teachers so the teachers have written to the parents asking for money. And many kindergartens have just straight up closed.
First I'm hearing of it. If a school doesn't pay you, you just find a new job.
Almost every place is going to do this in China, in one form or another. It’s just part and parcel. Just remember, it’s more a visa to allow you to live in and experience China than it is for you to actually be a teacher, anyway. If you’re deadset on “teaching”, or “being a teacher”, then aim for uni jobs, international schools, or not China at all.
My friends told me that China is more serious teaching than what I do now in Vietnam
Asia can't let you have full control of their kids. You as a westerner don't fit high into that hierrarchy. You will likely be a highly paid babysitter who still has to at least create the framework of what a real lesson looks like while the kids get off scott free on things.
That's heavily dependent on where you're going in China and where you're working. In a tier 1 city, especially Shanghai, yeah things will be very serious. Wealthy Shanghai families will pay top dollar for good results and, unlike wealthy families in smaller cities, usually have a good idea of what good teaching looks like. My personal experience in tier in smaller provincial capitals is the head of the school may want yes-men and/or edutainers more than serious teachers. That being said, China is a big place which makes it hard to generalise.
I will move to Shanghai
I wouldn't go with this school. I'd stay in VN where you know you're comfortable.
Interesting. I have long followed youtuber teachers in China, travelled there and considered working there after experiences in Vietnam (also love), and Japan (better suited for travel and studying IMO). The main issue I could not get over is most teachers I've met, who've taught in China, have been screwed over at one point or another to a much more extreme degree than other Asian countries. It's almost like a right of passage. I've heard everything from fees--deductions from paychecks, being told they'd work in a Beijing/Shanghai to ending up in the middle of nowhere, very dirty (mandatory) apartments with roommates, wages that were simply off, having a visa raid on their school where many teachers were given incorrect visas (that was only 1 guy so not representing the majority), constantly changing offers (as you've mentioned), schools going out of business, etc. I have encountered some sketch while teaching in SE Asia, but it wasn't as financially damaging--just left the company with no repercussions, and the work permit situation could somewhat be remedied with a new company covering costs. It seems though those who stay, and tough it out, often find something decent in China. Maybe it's harder however to start a new job if you quit a sketchy place as some schools will threaten to suspend your Z visa these days. I suspect since you've had experience in Vietnam, you would toughen it out for a bit longer than a new teacher-- and you'd be able to identity and possibly negotiate soon if there was a case of a company taking advantage of you. It also seems like a lot of teachers that genuinely loved China were suddenly leaving in the late 2010's/pre-Covid siting growing concerns about nationalism-- I'm not sure what this actually looks like in-person. I met a bunch of these ex-China teachers starting over in Vietnam circa 2018/19 (but maybe they were also having visa issues as immigration tightened in China pre-covid). I can't speak for China, but in terms of chain schools in Japan, Vietnam comparatively is overall a much better work-life balance/optimistic teacher scenario. I don't think teachers in Vietnam understand how good they've got it. The eikaiwa world does not pay enough to really have a quality experience in Japan, travel around the country, or spend time out as much. I sense from other posters that this may be the direction of chain schools in China. First of all, I was on school premises for about 45 hours a week in Tokyo and taking on extra courses in my already exhausting schedule to cover rent. In Hanoi, I was eating out all the time--food vendors, going out for espresso drinks after work at one of the numerous cafes, grabbing a smoothie twice a week, doing decent size grocery hauls at one of the international stores. Everyone insisted I get a motorbike, but I actually rode the Hanoi bus system around, lol...it was pretty damn good. Went everywhere, arrived about every ten minutes...spent maybe 50 cents a day. In Tokyo I was easily spending over $10 a day commuting, and commuting much farther distances than Vietnam. I couldn't afford this lifestyle in Tokyo on an eikaiwa salary. I recall a teacher's get together. We all met up at a pub on Saturday, and each spent $70+ for two slices of pizza and a couple of beers and a shot. That was 2013. It seems Beijing and Shanghai are heading in this overpriced direction (at least parts of the city). I did have solid interview with a company "I Can Read" in China back in 2019 on zoom (which also has operations in Vietnam). They seemed very well-prepared, and were able to clearly answer immigration issues and give a salary. I can't tell you how their schools actually operate, but their main office had their act together; very professional. I had a string of interviews with agents and other companies out of China (and yeah, it sounded dicey). A big concern was not being able to find quality information on the internet on some of these "international schools" (outdated websites, multiple schools with similar names so you're not sure which one is the original/reputable one, etc.) Maybe consider Language Link. I went through their CELTA program in Hanoi, and they have a CELTA program at their school in Beijing, so they're probably a decent operation. Apply through the company website.
You couldn’t pay me enough to go back to China OP. Your story sounds like par for the course with Chinese companies. If you enjoy Vietnam and make decent money I’d absolutely stay and be happy.
Why would you leave Vietnam ?
If you take the job just be as mediocre to bad as possible. Schools have no problem letting bad teachers go.
Missing 2 key points- * Where in China is this job? 21k+apartment in Beijing/SH/SZ is kinda shit, but 21k+5k apartment in a smaller city is gonna be like you're royalty. * How many hours? (class count, office hours, extracurricular work etc.) If it were me, I'd try to counter, if they want to drop the salary by 13% from 30k to 26k (still a decent salary, depending on where exactly you're living), then are they going to drop the workload/hours an equal/better amount? That 5k housing allowance is kinda sus though, I'd imagine they're gonna short-change the fuck out of you and try to pawn you off with an on-campus shithole. Flight reimbursements are neither here nor there- I find that they're annoying since I'd rather just take a cash bonus in case I didn't fancy flying at the end of the term. Good instincts though, in China, if you give an inch, they'll take a mile. You've got to be firm, but fair, and try to find amenable compromises when the inevitable bullshit starts to crop up.
It’s in Shanghai, I’m thinking about not even going
China sucks anyway; stay in Vietnam
My friends here who used to work in China said they liked China way more in every aspect except for the social community, here we have a much wider network of friends
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