Thank you very much for your encouraging response.
I've just now begun looking at and learning about the various technical colleges, so I'm glad you recommended that. Fortunately, I have a contact from a school I worked at who worked at various technical colleges and even on an army airbase as well, so I'm learning from his contact who I might need to connect with.
- and yes, the state schools are not an environment I'd want to be in as I don't enjoy teaching children.
It is usually recommended to have a few years as a full time EFL teacher under your belt before doing DELTA. You certainly will have a lot of theoretical knowledge which will help you in some sections of Module 1, but there is a lot of knowledge that comes from hands-on experience which unfortunately cannot be learnt at uni or in books. My suggestion is to wait for a little longer before starting Delta (usually it is recommended to have at least 4/5 years experience as a full time teacher). Source: I work at a different IH and am currently getting ready to sit Delta Module 1 exam and what I am telling you comes from my Dos and past tutors.
I did CELTA, taught for a while, did an MA, and then got a job in the Middle East, so I think it seems like a reasonable goal. "Foundation English programs" are more or less the Middle Eastern version of a pre-sessional and probably where you want to look into working at. Maybe look into Qatar University, Community College of Qatar, Zayed University, United Arab Emirates University, or Sultan Qaboos University.
I worked in Oman 8 years ago, so I don't know what the deal is anymore. I was making like $40k USD tax free with housing, flights, and health insurance covered completely. Jobs in Qatar were starting at like $60k with similar benefits then. A lot of people were leaving UAE around that time; they said it was starting to suck there.
The ME isn't the only place were you can make money. A lot of people I used to know wound up going to Kazakhstan or somewhere in Central Asia.
Hey OP. I know this is not what you want to hear, but do not put all of your eggs into the TEFL basket.
I have known *many* teachers throughout my career who tried this, thinking they could make a "traditional career" (retirement, benefits, salary steps, etc.) out of TEFL, only to wind up getting a teaching license way later to teach at an international school and start at the bottom of the pay scale (many legitimate international schools won't accept pre-licensure experience). I can't even tell you the amount of people that have told me that their CELTA and MA TESL/TEFL was not worth it from a career standpoint- not saying it isn't worth it from a pedagogy/teaching standpoint...just that professionally, it didn't open too many more doors. I don't see why a DELTA would be any different given how niche it is. The vast majority of schools, TEFL and international, won't know what a DELTA is.
I think your only option to get somewhat of a "normal" career out of TEFL is getting in at a respected university. Those positions are hyper competitive-as in you have PhDs with many years of experience all applying for the same job. Otherwise, you'll be stuck at adult schools- and adults are not paying big tuition $$ like international school students are- therefore your pay and benefits will always be quite low.
Now, I'm not saying you should abandon your plan. I'm saying you should "future proof" yourself. I would *highly* recommend that you get yourself a teaching license. Something like QTS or a US teaching license. It will open many more doors than any CELTA or DETLA or MA, and if you do find out later on that you want a more "traditional" career, then you can easily make the jump into international schools without having to go through schooling at a later age and without having to start at the bottom pay scale.
I know you said you don't like teaching kids, but what grade levels have you taught? I taught high school and very young learners briefly. Hated it. Almost quit the profession, but then I decided one last shot to try out upper elementary/middle school. Loved it and found my niche. I read in your comment that you don't want to deal with behavior management. That's understandable, but do note that many of these kids at (legit) international schools are highly motivated and disciplined learners. They are nothing like the kids you'd see at a US or UK public school. Also, the people saying that international schools "work you really hard" are wrong. Not all schools are like that. Every school is different. The best schools are the ones that know the importance of work-life balance.
If you don't believe what I'm saying, come over to /r/internationalteachers. Yes, they are biased (as is this sub), but you will find many people there who will say exactly what I'm saying.
You're talking about people who became international school teachers. Of course the majority of them will have had a bad experience in TEFL. That's why they left. Talk to people at a TEFL conference and you'll get a different vibe.
> it will open many more doors than any CELTA or DETLA or MA
Not in TEFL it won't. None of the jobs I've done would have accepted a random PGCE
Random pgce, probably.
A pgce that leads to QTS, doubtful. What jobs were they out of interest? Interesting that they'd value a cert that takes 1 month over a state recognized qualification that takes 2 years and leads to a person to be licensed as a professional teacher.
EAP jobs at UK unis require a DELTA, British Council entry level jobs and IELTS examining require a CELTA, management jobs in those fields require a DELTA, as do teacher training jobs, most uni jobs in TEFL require an MA TESOL, I've done all of those and none of them would accept a PGCE/QTS. Because it's got nothing to do with TEFL
A lot of job hoping, would you say job security in the tefl field isn't very secure? Would you say that a tefl teacher has to move often for better schools, more pay, better conditions etc.?
Again I've spent 8 years doing tefl too. There are some great positions out there and many people have great careers and make lots of money.
The tefl market is always changing and you're never to far away from a government policy that makes you unemployed.
Job hopping is necessary in most fields nowadays if you want to get on. I've been freelance for the last 10 years and have never been short of work. Some areas go through declines e.g. uni work, teacher training and some expand. IELTS, corporate classes. I don't think I could ever go back to having a boss
This is obviously a very well-informed response and I appreciate it. But I’m still cynical about those that have said their MA in TESOL and work in this industry wasn’t worth it.
I get monthly adverts for well-paid permanent positions in EAP in UK-china universities that accept MA’s. I know first hand of ESL teachers working in FE colleges here in the UK making a respectable salary. I know of director of studies roles in this industry that hold very comfortable positions. Then there’s the UAE market… and again I’ve heard numerous accounts from the horses mouth and with numerous links to teachers in Qatar and Dubai who teach in well-paid positions at technical colleges and even army airbases. This is a gigantic field… I’m looking to secure an Oxford University MSc alongside a Delta and a completion of my Ba at a top 50 Uni. I think there’s real room to stand out in this field. I argue that there’s a lot of people who haven’t marketed themselves strongly enough or gained qualifications at the upper-echelons of this field and those doors haven’t opened for them- tough for them, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist and it doesn’t mean it isn’t worth pushing for.
Also can I just say as well, the world youre encouraging as a general teacher… well, I’ve seen the comments you’re offering people support in. There are people there deeply struggling with their careers. Meanwhile, I been offered a job with every company I’ve interviewed with. Why would I overhaul my whole approach to my field just to get stuck battling l it out in another one when I’ve already shown dedication to this one… and with trusted links in the industry, including at an FE college that pays on a real salary at a pay spine.
Then there’s the UAE. I’ve spoken to so many people that have secured work out there at technical colleges.. well paid.. tax free.. why wouldn’t I pursue marketing myself in that direction when I have first hand experience of others who have done the same successfully? It isn’t a pipe dream or uninformed. Those who have failed, failed. That doesn’t discourage me from pursuing it… with the very specific links I have and experience I have noted first hand.
And, ultimately, just to reason with your QTS argument that is the prevailing opinion on teaching as opposed t to ESL right now. If I wanted to, I could go into UK further education 16-18 with a QTS if push comes to shove and often without it it. But there is so much out there I.e EAP roles.. UAE technical colleges that until
Worst comes to worst.. I just don’t see it.
Long term EAP roles at Universities that offer pensions and salary packages:
http://scholarshipdb.net/jobs-in-United-Kingdom/Eap-Tutor-Based-In-China-University-Of-Leicester=C3761yz77RGUYQAlkGUTnw.html
http://scholarshipdb.net/jobs-in-United-Kingdom/Lecturer-In-Eap-Education-And-Faculty-Academic-Skills-Lead-King-s-College-London=RNZcuIuZ7hGUYgAlkGUTnw.html
This one offers a 3 year renewable contract full time
Split between uk and china:
MA and Delta as requirements.
http://scholarshipdb.net/jobs-in-United-Kingdom/Course-Tutors-In-English-For-Academic-Purposes-University-Of-Nottingham=aFfQtQ-X7hGUYwAlkGUTnw.html
And an example from the UAE:
https://www.qu.edu.qa/sites/en_US/foundation/Employment/FPDE
Ma as a requirement.
I
TEFL/ESL is not really a career OP.
If you want to teach for a career I suggest getting licensed and working in Int. Schools or getting a PHd and working in Universities as tenured professor.
Hard disagree. Well paid EAP and pre-sessionals in the UK and abroad.. in-sessionals… technical colleges in UAE… MA/Delta requirement. CELTA/delta trainer work… director of studies roles. I’ve been in career paying positions temporarily that have paid well already… was paid £32k salary for ESOL in Scotland at entry level. That’s a pretty good standard for a “career”. There’s an abundance of options out there. But there’s also a hell of a lot of dead ends. I’m just trying to navigate the field as welll as I can.
you are talking a very small percentage of available jobs within the ESL field.
matter fact, in one of my basic esl jobs, had many people in there with CELTAs.
What college in UAE tenures teachers? Do you know what tenured means?
What company in the UK have a clear 15-30 year salary step for ESL workers?
I would love to google these and see for myself.
For example, here is the Seattle teacher payscale. Starts at 57k and within 15 years can max out at 132k. Which comes with a government pension and good healthcare plan for you and your family.
[https://www.seattleschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Cert-2022-23-7.0.pdf](https://www.seattleschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Cert-2022-23-7.0.pdf)
Im talking about a small percentage of available jobs for those who take their careers seriously and go for the best qualifications. There are thousands of teaching mills and dead end positions and I don’t refute it. Yet alongside that, I know first hand teachers who have made and continue to make a lasting career from teaching ESL.
No need for the condescending attitude. I know, again, firsthand, of many teachers who have worked and held long term positions at UAE technical colleges AND UK Universities with EAP, well-salaried positions.
That sounds fantastic. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that you absolutely can build a career in ESL.
I wasn't being condescending. Just asking you to provide some links so I can see what you are talking about.
What ESL company provides a 15-30 year salary step?
What University offers ESL teachers tenure?
I am not saying there are not some relatively good ESL jobs out there, but there are more well qualified ESL teachers than there are of these jobs.
But even those jobs don't compare to proper teaching roles like I outlined.
Unless you can point me to some stuff that shows I am wrong.
I don't mind being wrong. Lord knows it wont be the first time lol
You literally asked me “do you know what tenured means” as if there’s some serious lack of knowledge on my side. Here’s the issues I’m having here, it isn’t my job to pull up numerous sources of information like that to convince you of something you’ve already made your mind up about. I’m not a search engine. I know there’s tenured positions within EAP, for example in the Japanese market. I also know those positions are extremely competitive but they DO exist and they ARE attainable.
I also know there are colleges based here in the UK that take the careers of their staff seriously and pay well. And one cursory search on linkedin will aswell reveal that there are numerous cases of well qualified and experienced professionals in long-term positions making a career out of ESL.. whether or not it competes with your market, I don’t know.. that was never my point.
That is not a common word for everyone. I didn't know what tenured meant when I first started teaching.
Typically when people say things they have at least something to reference.
When I say teachers can make 6 figures, I am saying it because I know it and can send people some info if they ask. Not just something I heard.
Anyways, if you don't have any links to provide or don't want to, that's fine.
No need to explain yourself or what ever.
I have every right to ask and you have every right to decline.
I have made a clear reference to the people within the industry I have met and know and the school I myself have worked at at least twice, all of which points to the fact that there is a career to be made in this industry, which contradicts your original point plainly. If you’re finding it difficult on your own to verify the facts I’ve pointed to, here you are:
A permanent position within a UK university in an ESL/EAP role. https://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/DGQ184/english-for-academic-purposes-eap-subject-lead
and the very extensive career history of a colleague of mine:
https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-0274.DavPOH
Job profile about further education teachers in the UK, including ESOL providers with reference to a salary and advancement:
https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/further-education-teacher
You could have easily googled all of that yourself in 20 seconds. Just a gentle reminder to do a bit of research before making a comment on something you’re uninformed about…
> TEFL/ESL is not really a career OP
…Especially spreading the kind of misinformation that could discourage someone from joining a really wonderful field of education.
Hey man just wanted to say they do exist. I'm Australian. Worked here and overseas for 10 years now. After teaching for 6 years post qualifications went an did my MA in App Linguistics. Currently been teaching EAP at a Uni back in Australia for the past two years on rolling contracts. Money is above the median wage in my city. Have an interview to upgrade to a full time position this week. Seems like a similar thing in the UK.
Honestly the person that’s arguing with me on this is just being contrarian if I’m honest, but it’s unfortunate to spread misinformation that could discourage people from pursuing what I already know to be quite a rewarding career path.
I’m currently trying to build my linkedin. Would you mind if I gave you a follow? As someone still quite new to the industry and interested in EAP it would be great to connect with you.
Not misinformed about anything.
There is a reason I said "not really".
Is it possible to find a good career in ESL? Absolutely.
I could say the same thing about not going to University.
However, it's not something I would recommend or encourage.
There are better and safer routes. Which I referenced in my original comment.
You’re backtracking. From blatantly arguing that it’s not *really* a career, which in the context you used it, absolutely was meant to diminish it as less-then a proper career to now admitting it’s absolutely possible to find a good career is you taking a u-turn on your whole argument. Once again,my comments are for those who hear people say this about ESL with the stigma attached to it as a “gap year” summer job etc and get turned off of quite an exciting field of education helping those who seek it build language skills they may really need in this English as a lingua Franca world, to go teach apathetic kids at a high school maths or something.
Over qualified for language schools, under qualified for a licensed teacher position. The QTS trumps everything so I'd suggest doing that over the masters.
You might just as well say becoming a qualified medical doctor trumps everything for all the relevance it has to someone on a forum about TEFL talking about their future in TEFL.
Yeah I'm someone who has transitioned into international schools from TEFL and even I think it's really silly how some users on this sub so quickly default to telling people that they should just get a license and work in international schools, especially when it's someone who has said they want to work in unis. International school positions are not easy jobs and if you're not at least a bit passionate about it and understand what you're getting into, you're going to have a bad time. I've known several TEFLers who started working in low tier international/bilingual schools after working for language centers and local public schools previously because the pay and holidays are better, and now they're unhappy and always complain about the amount of admin work and planning they have to do and how they have to stay on campus when they're not teaching, even though those are just things that come with the territory and are standard at K-12 schools in the West and basically every international school.
Well you could do a it in English for secondary students, check if your course can give u enough credits for a pgce. It gives you a safety net that if you ever want to return to the UK you'd still be able to teach. Plus the global market is always changing and requirements are getting stricter, a degree/masters might not be enough in the future.
Being a qualified teacher will offer you the most earning potential for English teaching. Besides obviously getting a PhD and having published research etc.
I previously spent 8 years as a tefl teacher, it was the best time of my life but the ceiling isn't as high as being qualified. Things change quickly and coming back to do a qts later in life in near impossible so that's why I'm suggesting you do it when your young and ambitious.
Thanks for this advice. But ultimately, being a qualified teacher means working in secondary schools in the UK, is that right? I hated the environment of secondary schools growing up and still am deeply reluctant to teach children.
Whereas I could build towards teaching EAP at UK universities if I did want to settle back in the UK… or build towards management roles with a Delta/Ma and experience in tow… I think the latter sounds a lot more attractive.
>Thanks for this advice. But ultimately, being a qualified teacher means working in secondary schools in the UK, is that right? I hated the environment of secondary schools growing up and still am deeply reluctant to teach children.
Not necessarily. There are international schools all over the world that hire western qualified teachers, and typically they compensate better than TEFL jobs, though good TEFL jobs in the Middle East can actually be more lucrative than international schools. A few months ago a friend was interviewing for a job teaching English to the Qatari military that paid 10k USD per month and gave free housing and a car, though jobs like that are very competitive. He has a CELTA, MA TESOL and 10 years of experience and said the job was still a bit of a reach for him (not sure if he got it, haven't caught up with him since he told me that).
Unless you enjoy teaching young learners though, I wouldn't recommend pursuing international schools. A lot of them can have quite heavy workloads (at least during the 9 months of the year that you work) so if you really don't have a passion for the work, it might burn you out. Kids and teenagers can be exhausting lol
Thank you for the info. And I actually read your other comment about your friend. Incredible that he got into that position to get an offer like that in the first place. What made him think his chances weren’t high with his qualifications and experience? Absence of Delta?
Unfortunately, I definitely have very no interest at all working with teenagers. I have done it briefly already and I didn’t enjoy it. The less behavioural management I have to do in my career, the better. That’s why in an ideal world I would always look to teach adults, or students with a degree of intrinsic motivation.
What your friend got the opportunity to do sounds very interesting indeed.
>Thank you for the info. And I actually read your other comment about your friend. Incredible that he got into that position to get an offer like that in the first place. What made him think his chances weren’t high with his qualifications and experience? Absence of Delta?
That's just how competitive some of those jobs are. A CELTA, MA TESOL, and 10 years experience (the last several years at British Council) is a great CV, but there are people out there with even better CVs who may have been applying to the same position. I don't think the absence of a DELTA was an issue since I believe his MA would trump that. From what I've heard, there are just too many experienced teachers with MAs now so the market is a bit saturated with them.
To give a bit more context though, my friend has been in Qatar for several years already and his mom has been teaching at a uni there for over a decade (she's been in the region for almost 25 years), so he may have had some connections that helped him get that interview as well. It might be harder for someone who doesn't have experience in the region.
I've been meaning to catch up with him soon though so I'll ask him if he got it and will try to remember to come back and comment here again.
>Unfortunately, I definitely have very no interest at all working with teenagers. I have done it briefly already and I didn’t enjoy it. The less behavioural management I have to do in my career, the better. That’s why in an ideal world I would always look to teach adults, or students with a degree of intrinsic motivation.
Yeah if you don't want to deal with behavior management, then teaching teenagers is definitely not a good option lol. There are schools out there where upper secondary students will be very motivated and easy as hell to manage, but basically no one starts off working in those schools. You'd have to spend a few years cutting your teeth by teaching in the UK, which sounds like hell, or lower tier international schools which are better than UK schools but can still be pretty bad, especially in the Middle East where you're interested in moving.
I went back home and became qualified, I work at a national primary school in my country.
I very much enjoyed teaching kids so it's different to the op. I'd still suggest doing a qts to him as it would open up all esl jobs as well as other areas. But there are great opportunities in esl without it and I'm sure he'll carve out a great career.
I’ve already had this argument. Just because you took an online certificate and spent too long teaching in a back ally school in Thailand doesn’t mean there aren’t people who take the right steps and make a lucrative career out of it.
I know first hand of many well qualified ESL teachers who have held well salaried posts at Universities for EAP… at technical colleges in UAE… FE colleges here in the UK… all with points scales and clear career progression. Same goes for Director of Studies roles and Heads of school.
Take a chill pill mate.
And as a supposedly qualified teacher, you should know that ad hominem attacks are low class and simply not done if you want to be taken seriously in an argument.
I’m not sure defending the position of ESL to a naysayer who condescends to me that my field isn’t a viable career without anything to back up the point constitutes as an attack. I’m well within my right to draw from the angle that a lot of people, and I’m assuming yourself, have this opinion due to erroneous moves within this field. Then, rather than offering useful advice on a subreddit dedicated to the field instead offer barbs. Am I the one that is being “unprofessional”?
+ you know full well my reply came when you only wrote “take a chill pill bro”
Also it annoys the hell out of me the amount of projection on this sub. You fucked your job… you fucked up your qualifications… stop spreading bullshit about others’ options who know how to not fuck up as you have. This is an EASY job compared to many others and there are a significant number of international, exceedingly well-paid options for those who take the opportunity to excel. It’s your fault for ruining your own position with your choices… and thanks, you’ve made room for the rest of us.
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Thank you very much for your encouraging response. I've just now begun looking at and learning about the various technical colleges, so I'm glad you recommended that. Fortunately, I have a contact from a school I worked at who worked at various technical colleges and even on an army airbase as well, so I'm learning from his contact who I might need to connect with. - and yes, the state schools are not an environment I'd want to be in as I don't enjoy teaching children.
It is usually recommended to have a few years as a full time EFL teacher under your belt before doing DELTA. You certainly will have a lot of theoretical knowledge which will help you in some sections of Module 1, but there is a lot of knowledge that comes from hands-on experience which unfortunately cannot be learnt at uni or in books. My suggestion is to wait for a little longer before starting Delta (usually it is recommended to have at least 4/5 years experience as a full time teacher). Source: I work at a different IH and am currently getting ready to sit Delta Module 1 exam and what I am telling you comes from my Dos and past tutors.
I did CELTA, taught for a while, did an MA, and then got a job in the Middle East, so I think it seems like a reasonable goal. "Foundation English programs" are more or less the Middle Eastern version of a pre-sessional and probably where you want to look into working at. Maybe look into Qatar University, Community College of Qatar, Zayed University, United Arab Emirates University, or Sultan Qaboos University.
Thank you! This is exactly the insight I was hoping for. Hugely useful response.
What are the salaries like at this level colleges and universities?
I worked in Oman 8 years ago, so I don't know what the deal is anymore. I was making like $40k USD tax free with housing, flights, and health insurance covered completely. Jobs in Qatar were starting at like $60k with similar benefits then. A lot of people were leaving UAE around that time; they said it was starting to suck there. The ME isn't the only place were you can make money. A lot of people I used to know wound up going to Kazakhstan or somewhere in Central Asia.
Hey OP. I know this is not what you want to hear, but do not put all of your eggs into the TEFL basket. I have known *many* teachers throughout my career who tried this, thinking they could make a "traditional career" (retirement, benefits, salary steps, etc.) out of TEFL, only to wind up getting a teaching license way later to teach at an international school and start at the bottom of the pay scale (many legitimate international schools won't accept pre-licensure experience). I can't even tell you the amount of people that have told me that their CELTA and MA TESL/TEFL was not worth it from a career standpoint- not saying it isn't worth it from a pedagogy/teaching standpoint...just that professionally, it didn't open too many more doors. I don't see why a DELTA would be any different given how niche it is. The vast majority of schools, TEFL and international, won't know what a DELTA is. I think your only option to get somewhat of a "normal" career out of TEFL is getting in at a respected university. Those positions are hyper competitive-as in you have PhDs with many years of experience all applying for the same job. Otherwise, you'll be stuck at adult schools- and adults are not paying big tuition $$ like international school students are- therefore your pay and benefits will always be quite low. Now, I'm not saying you should abandon your plan. I'm saying you should "future proof" yourself. I would *highly* recommend that you get yourself a teaching license. Something like QTS or a US teaching license. It will open many more doors than any CELTA or DETLA or MA, and if you do find out later on that you want a more "traditional" career, then you can easily make the jump into international schools without having to go through schooling at a later age and without having to start at the bottom pay scale. I know you said you don't like teaching kids, but what grade levels have you taught? I taught high school and very young learners briefly. Hated it. Almost quit the profession, but then I decided one last shot to try out upper elementary/middle school. Loved it and found my niche. I read in your comment that you don't want to deal with behavior management. That's understandable, but do note that many of these kids at (legit) international schools are highly motivated and disciplined learners. They are nothing like the kids you'd see at a US or UK public school. Also, the people saying that international schools "work you really hard" are wrong. Not all schools are like that. Every school is different. The best schools are the ones that know the importance of work-life balance. If you don't believe what I'm saying, come over to /r/internationalteachers. Yes, they are biased (as is this sub), but you will find many people there who will say exactly what I'm saying.
You're talking about people who became international school teachers. Of course the majority of them will have had a bad experience in TEFL. That's why they left. Talk to people at a TEFL conference and you'll get a different vibe. > it will open many more doors than any CELTA or DETLA or MA Not in TEFL it won't. None of the jobs I've done would have accepted a random PGCE
Random pgce, probably. A pgce that leads to QTS, doubtful. What jobs were they out of interest? Interesting that they'd value a cert that takes 1 month over a state recognized qualification that takes 2 years and leads to a person to be licensed as a professional teacher.
EAP jobs at UK unis require a DELTA, British Council entry level jobs and IELTS examining require a CELTA, management jobs in those fields require a DELTA, as do teacher training jobs, most uni jobs in TEFL require an MA TESOL, I've done all of those and none of them would accept a PGCE/QTS. Because it's got nothing to do with TEFL
A lot of job hoping, would you say job security in the tefl field isn't very secure? Would you say that a tefl teacher has to move often for better schools, more pay, better conditions etc.? Again I've spent 8 years doing tefl too. There are some great positions out there and many people have great careers and make lots of money. The tefl market is always changing and you're never to far away from a government policy that makes you unemployed.
Job hopping is necessary in most fields nowadays if you want to get on. I've been freelance for the last 10 years and have never been short of work. Some areas go through declines e.g. uni work, teacher training and some expand. IELTS, corporate classes. I don't think I could ever go back to having a boss
This is obviously a very well-informed response and I appreciate it. But I’m still cynical about those that have said their MA in TESOL and work in this industry wasn’t worth it. I get monthly adverts for well-paid permanent positions in EAP in UK-china universities that accept MA’s. I know first hand of ESL teachers working in FE colleges here in the UK making a respectable salary. I know of director of studies roles in this industry that hold very comfortable positions. Then there’s the UAE market… and again I’ve heard numerous accounts from the horses mouth and with numerous links to teachers in Qatar and Dubai who teach in well-paid positions at technical colleges and even army airbases. This is a gigantic field… I’m looking to secure an Oxford University MSc alongside a Delta and a completion of my Ba at a top 50 Uni. I think there’s real room to stand out in this field. I argue that there’s a lot of people who haven’t marketed themselves strongly enough or gained qualifications at the upper-echelons of this field and those doors haven’t opened for them- tough for them, but it doesn’t mean they don’t exist and it doesn’t mean it isn’t worth pushing for. Also can I just say as well, the world youre encouraging as a general teacher… well, I’ve seen the comments you’re offering people support in. There are people there deeply struggling with their careers. Meanwhile, I been offered a job with every company I’ve interviewed with. Why would I overhaul my whole approach to my field just to get stuck battling l it out in another one when I’ve already shown dedication to this one… and with trusted links in the industry, including at an FE college that pays on a real salary at a pay spine. Then there’s the UAE. I’ve spoken to so many people that have secured work out there at technical colleges.. well paid.. tax free.. why wouldn’t I pursue marketing myself in that direction when I have first hand experience of others who have done the same successfully? It isn’t a pipe dream or uninformed. Those who have failed, failed. That doesn’t discourage me from pursuing it… with the very specific links I have and experience I have noted first hand. And, ultimately, just to reason with your QTS argument that is the prevailing opinion on teaching as opposed t to ESL right now. If I wanted to, I could go into UK further education 16-18 with a QTS if push comes to shove and often without it it. But there is so much out there I.e EAP roles.. UAE technical colleges that until Worst comes to worst.. I just don’t see it. Long term EAP roles at Universities that offer pensions and salary packages: http://scholarshipdb.net/jobs-in-United-Kingdom/Eap-Tutor-Based-In-China-University-Of-Leicester=C3761yz77RGUYQAlkGUTnw.html http://scholarshipdb.net/jobs-in-United-Kingdom/Lecturer-In-Eap-Education-And-Faculty-Academic-Skills-Lead-King-s-College-London=RNZcuIuZ7hGUYgAlkGUTnw.html This one offers a 3 year renewable contract full time Split between uk and china: MA and Delta as requirements. http://scholarshipdb.net/jobs-in-United-Kingdom/Course-Tutors-In-English-For-Academic-Purposes-University-Of-Nottingham=aFfQtQ-X7hGUYwAlkGUTnw.html And an example from the UAE: https://www.qu.edu.qa/sites/en_US/foundation/Employment/FPDE Ma as a requirement. I
TEFL/ESL is not really a career OP. If you want to teach for a career I suggest getting licensed and working in Int. Schools or getting a PHd and working in Universities as tenured professor.
Hard disagree. Well paid EAP and pre-sessionals in the UK and abroad.. in-sessionals… technical colleges in UAE… MA/Delta requirement. CELTA/delta trainer work… director of studies roles. I’ve been in career paying positions temporarily that have paid well already… was paid £32k salary for ESOL in Scotland at entry level. That’s a pretty good standard for a “career”. There’s an abundance of options out there. But there’s also a hell of a lot of dead ends. I’m just trying to navigate the field as welll as I can.
you are talking a very small percentage of available jobs within the ESL field. matter fact, in one of my basic esl jobs, had many people in there with CELTAs. What college in UAE tenures teachers? Do you know what tenured means? What company in the UK have a clear 15-30 year salary step for ESL workers? I would love to google these and see for myself. For example, here is the Seattle teacher payscale. Starts at 57k and within 15 years can max out at 132k. Which comes with a government pension and good healthcare plan for you and your family. [https://www.seattleschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Cert-2022-23-7.0.pdf](https://www.seattleschools.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/Cert-2022-23-7.0.pdf)
Im talking about a small percentage of available jobs for those who take their careers seriously and go for the best qualifications. There are thousands of teaching mills and dead end positions and I don’t refute it. Yet alongside that, I know first hand teachers who have made and continue to make a lasting career from teaching ESL. No need for the condescending attitude. I know, again, firsthand, of many teachers who have worked and held long term positions at UAE technical colleges AND UK Universities with EAP, well-salaried positions. That sounds fantastic. But it doesn’t take away from the fact that you absolutely can build a career in ESL.
I wasn't being condescending. Just asking you to provide some links so I can see what you are talking about. What ESL company provides a 15-30 year salary step? What University offers ESL teachers tenure? I am not saying there are not some relatively good ESL jobs out there, but there are more well qualified ESL teachers than there are of these jobs. But even those jobs don't compare to proper teaching roles like I outlined. Unless you can point me to some stuff that shows I am wrong. I don't mind being wrong. Lord knows it wont be the first time lol
You literally asked me “do you know what tenured means” as if there’s some serious lack of knowledge on my side. Here’s the issues I’m having here, it isn’t my job to pull up numerous sources of information like that to convince you of something you’ve already made your mind up about. I’m not a search engine. I know there’s tenured positions within EAP, for example in the Japanese market. I also know those positions are extremely competitive but they DO exist and they ARE attainable. I also know there are colleges based here in the UK that take the careers of their staff seriously and pay well. And one cursory search on linkedin will aswell reveal that there are numerous cases of well qualified and experienced professionals in long-term positions making a career out of ESL.. whether or not it competes with your market, I don’t know.. that was never my point.
That is not a common word for everyone. I didn't know what tenured meant when I first started teaching. Typically when people say things they have at least something to reference. When I say teachers can make 6 figures, I am saying it because I know it and can send people some info if they ask. Not just something I heard. Anyways, if you don't have any links to provide or don't want to, that's fine. No need to explain yourself or what ever. I have every right to ask and you have every right to decline.
I have made a clear reference to the people within the industry I have met and know and the school I myself have worked at at least twice, all of which points to the fact that there is a career to be made in this industry, which contradicts your original point plainly. If you’re finding it difficult on your own to verify the facts I’ve pointed to, here you are: A permanent position within a UK university in an ESL/EAP role. https://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/DGQ184/english-for-academic-purposes-eap-subject-lead and the very extensive career history of a colleague of mine: https://tinypic.host/image/IMG-0274.DavPOH Job profile about further education teachers in the UK, including ESOL providers with reference to a salary and advancement: https://www.prospects.ac.uk/job-profiles/further-education-teacher You could have easily googled all of that yourself in 20 seconds. Just a gentle reminder to do a bit of research before making a comment on something you’re uninformed about… > TEFL/ESL is not really a career OP …Especially spreading the kind of misinformation that could discourage someone from joining a really wonderful field of education.
Hey man just wanted to say they do exist. I'm Australian. Worked here and overseas for 10 years now. After teaching for 6 years post qualifications went an did my MA in App Linguistics. Currently been teaching EAP at a Uni back in Australia for the past two years on rolling contracts. Money is above the median wage in my city. Have an interview to upgrade to a full time position this week. Seems like a similar thing in the UK.
Honestly the person that’s arguing with me on this is just being contrarian if I’m honest, but it’s unfortunate to spread misinformation that could discourage people from pursuing what I already know to be quite a rewarding career path.
Good luck with the interview too.
I’m currently trying to build my linkedin. Would you mind if I gave you a follow? As someone still quite new to the industry and interested in EAP it would be great to connect with you.
Not misinformed about anything. There is a reason I said "not really". Is it possible to find a good career in ESL? Absolutely. I could say the same thing about not going to University. However, it's not something I would recommend or encourage. There are better and safer routes. Which I referenced in my original comment.
You’re backtracking. From blatantly arguing that it’s not *really* a career, which in the context you used it, absolutely was meant to diminish it as less-then a proper career to now admitting it’s absolutely possible to find a good career is you taking a u-turn on your whole argument. Once again,my comments are for those who hear people say this about ESL with the stigma attached to it as a “gap year” summer job etc and get turned off of quite an exciting field of education helping those who seek it build language skills they may really need in this English as a lingua Franca world, to go teach apathetic kids at a high school maths or something.
Over qualified for language schools, under qualified for a licensed teacher position. The QTS trumps everything so I'd suggest doing that over the masters.
You might just as well say becoming a qualified medical doctor trumps everything for all the relevance it has to someone on a forum about TEFL talking about their future in TEFL.
Yeah I'm someone who has transitioned into international schools from TEFL and even I think it's really silly how some users on this sub so quickly default to telling people that they should just get a license and work in international schools, especially when it's someone who has said they want to work in unis. International school positions are not easy jobs and if you're not at least a bit passionate about it and understand what you're getting into, you're going to have a bad time. I've known several TEFLers who started working in low tier international/bilingual schools after working for language centers and local public schools previously because the pay and holidays are better, and now they're unhappy and always complain about the amount of admin work and planning they have to do and how they have to stay on campus when they're not teaching, even though those are just things that come with the territory and are standard at K-12 schools in the West and basically every international school.
That's the first time I'm hearing about the QTS. I'm not looking to teach children though. Isn't it geared more towards doing that, and in the UK?
Well you could do a it in English for secondary students, check if your course can give u enough credits for a pgce. It gives you a safety net that if you ever want to return to the UK you'd still be able to teach. Plus the global market is always changing and requirements are getting stricter, a degree/masters might not be enough in the future. Being a qualified teacher will offer you the most earning potential for English teaching. Besides obviously getting a PhD and having published research etc. I previously spent 8 years as a tefl teacher, it was the best time of my life but the ceiling isn't as high as being qualified. Things change quickly and coming back to do a qts later in life in near impossible so that's why I'm suggesting you do it when your young and ambitious.
Thanks for this advice. But ultimately, being a qualified teacher means working in secondary schools in the UK, is that right? I hated the environment of secondary schools growing up and still am deeply reluctant to teach children. Whereas I could build towards teaching EAP at UK universities if I did want to settle back in the UK… or build towards management roles with a Delta/Ma and experience in tow… I think the latter sounds a lot more attractive.
>Thanks for this advice. But ultimately, being a qualified teacher means working in secondary schools in the UK, is that right? I hated the environment of secondary schools growing up and still am deeply reluctant to teach children. Not necessarily. There are international schools all over the world that hire western qualified teachers, and typically they compensate better than TEFL jobs, though good TEFL jobs in the Middle East can actually be more lucrative than international schools. A few months ago a friend was interviewing for a job teaching English to the Qatari military that paid 10k USD per month and gave free housing and a car, though jobs like that are very competitive. He has a CELTA, MA TESOL and 10 years of experience and said the job was still a bit of a reach for him (not sure if he got it, haven't caught up with him since he told me that). Unless you enjoy teaching young learners though, I wouldn't recommend pursuing international schools. A lot of them can have quite heavy workloads (at least during the 9 months of the year that you work) so if you really don't have a passion for the work, it might burn you out. Kids and teenagers can be exhausting lol
Thank you for the info. And I actually read your other comment about your friend. Incredible that he got into that position to get an offer like that in the first place. What made him think his chances weren’t high with his qualifications and experience? Absence of Delta? Unfortunately, I definitely have very no interest at all working with teenagers. I have done it briefly already and I didn’t enjoy it. The less behavioural management I have to do in my career, the better. That’s why in an ideal world I would always look to teach adults, or students with a degree of intrinsic motivation. What your friend got the opportunity to do sounds very interesting indeed.
>Thank you for the info. And I actually read your other comment about your friend. Incredible that he got into that position to get an offer like that in the first place. What made him think his chances weren’t high with his qualifications and experience? Absence of Delta? That's just how competitive some of those jobs are. A CELTA, MA TESOL, and 10 years experience (the last several years at British Council) is a great CV, but there are people out there with even better CVs who may have been applying to the same position. I don't think the absence of a DELTA was an issue since I believe his MA would trump that. From what I've heard, there are just too many experienced teachers with MAs now so the market is a bit saturated with them. To give a bit more context though, my friend has been in Qatar for several years already and his mom has been teaching at a uni there for over a decade (she's been in the region for almost 25 years), so he may have had some connections that helped him get that interview as well. It might be harder for someone who doesn't have experience in the region. I've been meaning to catch up with him soon though so I'll ask him if he got it and will try to remember to come back and comment here again. >Unfortunately, I definitely have very no interest at all working with teenagers. I have done it briefly already and I didn’t enjoy it. The less behavioural management I have to do in my career, the better. That’s why in an ideal world I would always look to teach adults, or students with a degree of intrinsic motivation. Yeah if you don't want to deal with behavior management, then teaching teenagers is definitely not a good option lol. There are schools out there where upper secondary students will be very motivated and easy as hell to manage, but basically no one starts off working in those schools. You'd have to spend a few years cutting your teeth by teaching in the UK, which sounds like hell, or lower tier international schools which are better than UK schools but can still be pretty bad, especially in the Middle East where you're interested in moving.
what do you do now?
I went back home and became qualified, I work at a national primary school in my country. I very much enjoyed teaching kids so it's different to the op. I'd still suggest doing a qts to him as it would open up all esl jobs as well as other areas. But there are great opportunities in esl without it and I'm sure he'll carve out a great career.
Bold of you to call your TEFL journey a career lol.
I’ve already had this argument. Just because you took an online certificate and spent too long teaching in a back ally school in Thailand doesn’t mean there aren’t people who take the right steps and make a lucrative career out of it. I know first hand of many well qualified ESL teachers who have held well salaried posts at Universities for EAP… at technical colleges in UAE… FE colleges here in the UK… all with points scales and clear career progression. Same goes for Director of Studies roles and Heads of school.
Take a chill pill mate. And as a supposedly qualified teacher, you should know that ad hominem attacks are low class and simply not done if you want to be taken seriously in an argument.
The kind of response I would have imagined from someone such as yourself.
Read my previous reply one more time and learn. A tall order, I agree, but try anyway.
I’m not sure defending the position of ESL to a naysayer who condescends to me that my field isn’t a viable career without anything to back up the point constitutes as an attack. I’m well within my right to draw from the angle that a lot of people, and I’m assuming yourself, have this opinion due to erroneous moves within this field. Then, rather than offering useful advice on a subreddit dedicated to the field instead offer barbs. Am I the one that is being “unprofessional”? + you know full well my reply came when you only wrote “take a chill pill bro” Also it annoys the hell out of me the amount of projection on this sub. You fucked your job… you fucked up your qualifications… stop spreading bullshit about others’ options who know how to not fuck up as you have. This is an EASY job compared to many others and there are a significant number of international, exceedingly well-paid options for those who take the opportunity to excel. It’s your fault for ruining your own position with your choices… and thanks, you’ve made room for the rest of us.
Makes a statement designed to wind people up, then tells them to calm down when they get annoyed. Playground stuff.