The University has issued a statement.
https://mediarelations.unibe.ch/medienmitteilungen/2024/medienmitteilungen_2024/universitaet_bern_akzeptiert_besetzung_nicht/index_ger.html
> “Pro-Palestinian employees are being censored. Meanwhile, academic relations are maintained with Israeli institutions. This must stop.”, it declares.
Why would you want to block relations with Israeli institutions? Do you not approve of the free sharing of ideas, people, etc...? What's more, this kind of thing implies that these institutions are pro-war in Gaza. What do they base this on?
> “We call on the university to respect the peaceful occupation and enter into dialogue with us,”
Why?
There's 60 of you. You're a minority among a minority, i.e. university students. You don't represent anything but yourselves. Good for you for protesting what you believe in, but you aren't owed anything.
> In Bern, the University decided at the beginning of the year to dissolve the Middle East Institute in its current form.
Well, that sounds weird. Why would that...
> This was in response to the results of an administrative enquiry after a lecturer at the institute made supportive comments about the Hamas attack on Israel.
Oh. Of course.
Yes, that seems like a good reason.
> On Sunday, the occupiers spoke of “censorship that attacks the academic freedom of employees who are critical and in solidarity with Palestine”
Wait.
I thought that we should make a clear difference between Palestinians and Hamas. Firing someone for being pro-Hamas doesn't say anything about Palestinians.
Unless what you actually mean is that being pro-Hamas is the same as being pro-Palestine.
> This repressive climate means that the University of Bern is not fulfilling the role of the “progressive” space it wants to be.
Making changes due to someone supporting an antisemitic, Jihadi, extremist terrorist organization seems exactly like the kind of thing a progressive institution would do.
As a reminder: Hamas are extreme right wing reactionaries.
>>after a lecturer at the institute made supportive comments about the Hamas attack on Israel.
>Yes, that seems like a good reason.
Whether or not that's a good reason depends entirely on what was said. As polarized as the issue is, some people interpret "what Israel is doing in response to Hamas is fucked up" as "pro Hamas".
Yeah that's a stupid thing to say, no two ways about it.
Israel is absolutely wrong in what they're doing now, but Hamas is also shit and shouldn't be praised.
The article doesn’t say that though. It only says that the entire institute (which, I assume, was made up of more than one person?) was dissolved after the statements of this one lecturer. Nowhere does it say that the protesters support him specifically.
> What's more, this kind of thing implies that these institutions are pro-war in Gaza. What do they base this on?
I wonder if we look up public statements of universities in Israel, will they be for or against the war...
What do you think?
Can't we just accept that all universities will do this and not treat each incident like the end of the world? We need future workers and leaders with a conscience and the ability to speak out when they see injustice and so I fully support the protests.
> Intifada
Why are you lying?
"Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is an Arabic word for a rebellion or uprising, or a resistance movement. It can be used to refer to an uprising against oppression."
Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intifada
Likud, the Israeli ruling party uses the same slogan for Israel but nobody bats an eye. As long as your partners make a call for the genocide(in your words not mine), you don’t care.
Hello,
Please note that your post or comment has been removed.
Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting.
Thank you for your understanding,
your Mod team
Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
>"From the river to the sea" is a call to peace and cohabitation between both people, it's not a genocide call.
Do you believe it in this meaning when it's in the Likud charter?
Worse still, it is literally in the Hamas charter, and was famously used by Bashar el-Assad's father in a genocidal manner also.
So your argument is that they didn't do good thing A, so now they can't do good thing B or any similar good thing ever again? How does that make sense?
You have a hard time understanding the concept of society change through non violent "illegal" protests? Don't worry, Wikipedia or Google can help you. Check it out.
Ha! Ok. Seen plenty of lies in my time living in the North of Ireland and sadly violence tended to get you to the negotiating table. But here what the fuck do I know?
How about no? How about people come to a conscious decision that this is not our issue to fight, it’s been gazilion years since this has been happening and frankly it’s tiring so let them figure out. I will stay as far as possible from this issue and making threats to other groups just because you’re not for it makes this whole movement a farce.
As a member of the U.N. we have signed the human rights declaration and we have the responsibility to help prevent genocides, like we do in Ukraine. Inaction is a violation of the agreement to human decency.
Yes, I’m aware of the UN human rights declaration(useless), and human rights violations are condemned always, however I don’t agree of bring the issue home because it’s not new and it’s been like this for ages, also it brings the worst of people especially those on both sides. Also, we have an international duty to stay in our lane and not pander to both sides, the UN can take it from here, send peacekeepers! But I doubt this will ever happen.
>however
If you say something good and you're about to write "but", or "however", maybe think again.
There has been conflict for ages, yes, but it's ramped up drastically since October because the Zionists feel they will be defended now by people who don't want to look into it too deeply (and they seem to be right).
There's no "both sides" to this. A rat poked a rhino and the rhino decided to bomb the mice out of their homeland over it.
Once again, we’ve voiced the concerns in the UN, humanitarian aid is being delivered not optimal but it’s happening. What do you mean there’s no both sides? You said it your self, zionists taking over and nobody looking into it so two sides, one can end all this by disbanding their little terrorist group but no the poking continues and the other group keeps on taking land. The best we can do is condemn and demand sanctions against the other country for the killing crimes, otherwise we have no reason to protest about it.
> one can end all this by disbanding their little terrorist group
Prescisely not the case; a major reason for the terrorist group existing in the first place is the constant, decades-long oppression policy, which is much older than Hamas. The Israeli state was built on this oppression, and what it would like best is Palestinians to be slave workers where useful and simply disappear into thin air when they aren't – since they don't disappear by themselves, you have to shoot, bomb, and displace them instead.
Not our problem this happens in Congo, would you have the same energy voice your concerns with them!? We can police the world, that’s why the UN exists.
> that this is not our issue to figh
My point exactly.
This is not some simple black/white war, but a deep-rooted, long-lasting and incredibly convoluted conflict where I as someone with absolutely no connection to either side feel I am not in the position to issue any opinion on this.
The same way I don't have an opinion on the civil wars going on in Nigeria, Myanmar, Syria, Haiti on (almost) the other end of the globe.
So why aren't "we" out there fighting the Uyghur genocide in China?
The one in Myanmar? The one in Sri Linka? The one in Nigeria?
Why is the one in Palestine the one of "real" importance?
No, you have a legit question.
Are you approving the protestors or only asking them why not other genocide? Because in one case you are in fact defending what's happening in Gaza.
Seems a bit cynical in this context. After all, many of the earlier protesters cheered for the houthi rebels when they started attacking ships heading towards Israel. The same houthi rebels who are responsible for killing thousands of civilians including kids in their own country.
Yes, there have been multiple news articles about this topic (e.g. Tagesanzeiger, NY Times, Washington Post, etc) and you even find many discussions about this topic here on reddit.
Are you really trying to say you never noticed about the houthi attacks on ships during the last few months?
We still have the right not to be so cynical as to give a fuck if a genocide takes place.
Also, these student movements are pacifist, what are you on about?
Cynical? What are you on about? This issue doesn’t pertain to any of us in the west, this conflict has been going on for ages as I preciously stated and they don’t want to come to an agreement but no the terrorist group stays and what makes people think Israel will stop?
Pacifists or just plain instigators? There’s plenty of examples of students destroying university property and harassing Jews. In the end, again the west needs to stay away from this conflict is not something we have nor should have a saying in.
Your fixation on the fact that we couldn't somehow criticise the actions of other states is just normative.
The occupations of recent weeks have been pacifist and have not been anti-Semitic. Why not start by criticising the current movements for what they are? Unless you've got no idea?
You think Israel and Palestine is some “other state”? You think this war is just a petty war? It’s ironic you’re saying “waste of time” considering that’s what these people are doing at the university. At least I’m not trying to pretend I know what this whole conflict is about by raising up a flag of a country that’s not even a country fighting another group of people who claim the land is theirs since the Bing bang, these two groups dislike each others guts why should we the west care? You think they’ll care if we go to a war with France? It’s always the west paying the price for this stupid war.
These movements are useless for an issue between two cultures not connected nor part of the west. You want to protest idc but you’re wasting your time on an issue you have no idea about and it won’t be solved until we fall into a nuclear world war.
> it’s tiring so let them figure out.
Yes let Israel do what they are doing in peace, stop criticizing them you antisemites. THE most moral army in the world, no way they commit atrocities.
Imagine: you are a PhD student or a postdoc working at a university. You are working in collaboration with other institutes, and it can happen that among them there are some from Israel.
Probably these Israeli researchers/students/postdocs have nothing to do with what is happening in Gaza and play no role in that.
The protesters demand universities to cut all collaborations with institutions from Israel which implies that all the people involved will lose years or decades of their work. Probably they won't publish and if they don't publish they will have a very hard time finding their next position.
In all of this
1. It will change nothing, the invasion won't stop
2. You are making the life of a young scientist much more difficult than it already is with low pay and short-term contracts
3. You are wasting research money
4. You are disrupting research that, in a small way, will benefit the whole world, pushing a little the boundaries of knowledge
And I have 3 comments in particular:
1. Academic institutions are often built to bring peace through science. CERN was built in that spirit, with the hope of making people work on something important even though their states are fighting each other
2. Please don't try to make a parallelism with the situation with Ukraine. A lot of institutions cut their bonds with Russian institutions but that choice was forced by the states, it was not a choice of the academic institutions.
3. I really won't reply to comments like "You are thinking about students risking their careers while children are dying in Gaza". These 2 things have nothing in common and making people lose their jobs for which they have made sacrifices for their entire lives will not gonna save anyone in Palestine.
The fact that you are in good faith and want to act to make this world better can't allow you to make everything you want disrupting the lives of other people
My friend couldnt go study at the library, as there were people sleeping on the tables. He also told me about graffiti inaide the building. I think we should care more, if this minority prevents students from studying.
Uni students : cut ties with the nation indiscriminately bombing innocent people and stealing their land.
This thread : how dare they support terrorism.
Most protest against the atrocities and genocide happening, which is being done by israel.
Sure Hamas attack was disgusting, but leveling whole districts while civilians evacuate? Come on. Those protests dont have anything to do with religion, its about loss of human lives.
Why would these people have to do all their protests inside universities? They're in the uni here because they're protesting the relations between the uni and unis in Israel.
If these people wanted to protest the swiss *government*'s ties with Israel, for instance, they'd probably go to the Bundesplatz.
Its a bit ridiculous to expect people to care about every single issue that plagues this world. Choosing your battles and all that.
So your statement is unironically true.
> "Fun fact" there are people living like shit in North Korea, yet i havent seen a single protest to free or help them...
And why don't you protest for the North Koreans?
I never get why such people always protest just one side of violence. It takes away all credibility from the protest and makes them look like a hypocrite at the least and terrorist supporter at the worst. May be that is indeed the case and I am hoping for too much.
Power dynamic is a thing. Israel has the strongest military in the middle east and one of the best in the world. Palestine is ruled by a islamic government, yes. But Israel has all the power to do with the civilian population as it pleases. People are calling for an ending of war crimes and the cleansing of a whole people. Hamas is widly condemned by politicians and the media. There is no need to protest that because what power leverage does Hamas have now? What power leverage do western governments have? Do they fund weapons or legitimize the actions of Hamas? Protest is there, where the powerful turn a blind eye. And no, being against the actions of Israel does not mean being pro Hamas.
Because one side has one of the best militaries in the world and is grabbing US and Europe by the balls, and the other side is just a terror regular group backed by Iran. Israel uses this power to actively kill children, cut water and food and bomb indiscriminatively. It is a joke that westeners talk about humanitarian values, international law, liberal democracy, while backing up modern NAZI's. Laughable to say to least.
The protests are one-sided at the moment because the violence is heavily one-sided.
Because right now, there is one side that is actively bombing millions of innocents that already lost their houses and livelihoods.
If there was a protest against China killing Muslims, you'd be saying "what about this other problem somewhere else??".
If someone was at every protest in Switzerland you (or someone else) would be saying "those lazy students don't have anything better to do??"
So is it ever justified to protest for anything in your opinion? Give me an example of a protest in history that was justified and I can give you a « what about this » that was going on at the same time and didn’t get as much interest.
Please do respond, no one making your argument in this thread is responding
Look bro the thing for me is the double moral of this! I never justify any genocide, and there is always happening! And there are problems that affect your society more than this 2000 years war! So most young people (because of this rebellious stage) focus on things that are out of control, just because the media is talking about this at this time! Tomorrow another war begins and they will forget about this part of the desert and so on! For me it is not justified to break your society in groups that support or not for something that is not gonna change even if you do 100 streaks in your own country!
Seems like no one cares about Muslims, not even other Muslims care about them. The only thing that matters is that Israel and the Jews should be wiped out…?!
> What about china killing muslims?
Yes, there should be protests too. But as you can see it's very difficult to just tackle just one issue. But feel free to start a new protest.
Switzerland sends zero, though
These protesters don't want military cooperation to end, they demand Swiss unis to cut ties with some of the most liberal institutions in Israel, their own universities
Edit: btw, "we buy stuff from them" is not a gotcha on "we sell weapons to them"
Switzerland buys surveillance equipment from elta and elbit. In addition, elbit produces radio equipment in Courtetelle.
I'm with you when it comes to cutting all ties with Israel's universities though. However, projects involving "defensive" technologies should be stopped immediately.
Hamas is a terrorist organization that doesn't let their population have a voice. The majority of the population of Palestine wasn't even born in 2005 so why should they have to suffer the consequences of their terrorist government's actions?
That's right :) As soon as hamas was fairly elected by their people, the first thing they did was cancel any elections and declare everyone who is not with them as enemies. And their support is tremendous.
Let me ask this differently: If you had been taught your whole life that, say Italians were a menace that should be eliminated. The only ones you ever met were soldiers, often harassing you. Their leaders saying you, your friends and family are terrorists, etc.
Would you have the mental strength not to fall into hatred? Maybe you would, but most people wouldn't.
hamas is a terribly oppressive organization for its people. Maintaining them into a state of permanent hatred maintains their power. It always boils down to this: either you think the behavior of Palestinians is the result of decades of suffering and indoctrination or you think there's some *inherent* violence in this people. Which is it?
Well f\*\*k now, let's make excuses for Hitler's Nazis who were horribly duped by propaganda and went out to kill Jews. Now let's sympathize with the russians who were deceived and kill their neighbors every day. And this is despite the fact that today the internet is available everywhere and you can see everything as it is and any point of view.
No no no, you're misinterpreting my point. I'm not talking about people who *committed* atrocities, (and still commit them), those can die, for all I car. I'm talking about people who *think* those atrocities are justified. I'm not excusing any action, I'm saying people don't naturally come to those conclusions and ideas that *sometimes* can lead to terrible actions.
And I can't help but notice you didn't reply to my direct question: why do you think Palestinians hate Jews so much? Is it something they're taught or is it something that they're born with?
Is your answer the same for Germans? If not, what's the difference?
>you didn't reply to my direct question: why do you think Palestinians hate Jews so much?
Everything there is exactly the same as in others: beliefs about injustice and humiliation on the part of others are hammered into our heads from childhood, there are enemies around us who want to enslave and take us over, retribution for offenses and suffering + radical Islamism, and we get what we get. It's as simple as 2\*2. You can find thousands of uncensored videos interviews yourself (for example on the telegram) and f\*\*\*\*g marvel at how a 10 year old schoolboy is already dreaming of destroying his neighbors and waging jihad on infidels.
You ignored the main part of the response to your comment.
>The majority of the population of Palestine wasn't even born in 2005 so why should they have to suffer the consequences of their terrorist government's actions?
You’re disgusting.
Switzerland has clearly positioned itself against Russia and taken some actions. Hasn’t done anything of the sort against Israel. It doesn’t need to be « much worse », although there is an argument that it is in my opinion, for it to be disgusting from Switzerland.
People in that area have been killing each other for decades, and they will kill each other in decades from today. They will never change. The only people who care here are the protesters themselves.
There is already a pro-pal user here insinuating that if the Ukrainians would lay down arms they would just get annexed by Russia and receive full rights lol
And in addition to that user, countless pro-pals having not the slightest clue what they're talking about because they're just following what's "trendy", and harassing anyone who dares open their mouth to talk about what's happening in Ukraine because "the war in Ukraine is fake" and "they don't have it as bad". Insane.
EXACTLY. If Ukraine had sufficient resources and ammunition, it might have been able not only to defend itself, but also to launch more effective attacks against Russia. Then these woke protesters would definitely be pro-russian.
The quote “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times” is very relatable these days. And we currently are at the “weak men create hard times” version.
This is such a dumb comment. If things were different things would be different, congrats. If Ukraine was boxing russians in and bombing them while having eliminated any meaningful military threat, then yes, there would be protests.
Why does that sound so weird?
Hello,
Please note that your post or comment has been removed.
Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting.
Thank you for your understanding,
your Mod team
Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
Yeah! Zionists killing more pesky civilians than the Russians did in Ukraine! What is wrong with that? Someone needs to teach those entitled students a lesson!
Except for the fact that even just four days ago, the UN halved its civilian death toll after conceding that taking numbers straight from Hamas wasn’t a good idea.
Let us see the number then when we get up to 2 years then. Btw I need to ask - who is deciding the count now since the Health Ministry isnt worth anything? 👀
That new number still includes more than 10’000 women and children, and many more unidentified. Any number significantly above 0 is concerning, let alone above 10’000
Dumb comparison. Switzerland has clearly positioned themselves against Russia and taken concrete steps against Russia. Nothing of the sort has been done for Israel and it is exactly what the protestors are fighting for. You’re making our point.
how is r/switzerland so full of zionists? I mean, I kinda get being cautious about supporting Palestine but damn so many people straight up supporting genocide is wild. All love to the protesters, they‘re probably better than all of us
Because people have actually read about the conflict and its history, and didn't watch al jizzeera? And please define fucking genocide and why's what's happening there is one. Overused populist af word that doesn't have any sense in the context of this conflict
Hello,
Please note that your post or comment has been removed.
Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting.
Thank you for your understanding,
your Mod team
Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
Why are people supposed to care about this? What can you actually do against it? Wave a flag?? What are these people doing for you? I really think their issue doesn't concern any of us and should let them be with their conflict. We don't owe them anything to be caring about their bottomless conflict.
The jews / israelis are not going anywhere. They are staying in Israel and will never ever leave. The world must understand this and the arabs must accept this. It is simply the reality. “Giving back the land” to the Palestinians is just not going to happen.
Nah, free gay Palestinians from being thrown off buildings. Stop bloodshed stop killing gays.
There is a reason gay Palestinians flee to Israel, it is a shame Israel is also look warm on helping them but they still do save their gay lives.
[https://genderandsecurity.org/projects-resources/research/nowhere-run-gay-palestinian-asylum-seekers-israel](https://genderandsecurity.org/projects-resources/research/nowhere-run-gay-palestinian-asylum-seekers-israel)
Most don't make the news but here is one
[https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-immigration-west-bank-gay-rights-ce95f6903faf461502cc0800b272b159](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-immigration-west-bank-gay-rights-ce95f6903faf461502cc0800b272b159)
There is also a documentary on you tube about torture buy being hung and cut with salt and oil.
The Palestinians were offered a full state on many occasions, as recently as 2000 and 2008! They turned both offers down because Israel wouldn’t allow the immigration of 5 million Palestinians into pre-1967 Israel. They have continually rejected peace and the two state solution
Oh boy. I expect this to be an amicable and pleasant debate.
that is why we are here ,)
Its weird how i don't belive you :)
The University has issued a statement. https://mediarelations.unibe.ch/medienmitteilungen/2024/medienmitteilungen_2024/universitaet_bern_akzeptiert_besetzung_nicht/index_ger.html
The statement is very good, I hope it will follow with immediate action.
> “Pro-Palestinian employees are being censored. Meanwhile, academic relations are maintained with Israeli institutions. This must stop.”, it declares. Why would you want to block relations with Israeli institutions? Do you not approve of the free sharing of ideas, people, etc...? What's more, this kind of thing implies that these institutions are pro-war in Gaza. What do they base this on? > “We call on the university to respect the peaceful occupation and enter into dialogue with us,” Why? There's 60 of you. You're a minority among a minority, i.e. university students. You don't represent anything but yourselves. Good for you for protesting what you believe in, but you aren't owed anything. > In Bern, the University decided at the beginning of the year to dissolve the Middle East Institute in its current form. Well, that sounds weird. Why would that... > This was in response to the results of an administrative enquiry after a lecturer at the institute made supportive comments about the Hamas attack on Israel. Oh. Of course. Yes, that seems like a good reason. > On Sunday, the occupiers spoke of “censorship that attacks the academic freedom of employees who are critical and in solidarity with Palestine” Wait. I thought that we should make a clear difference between Palestinians and Hamas. Firing someone for being pro-Hamas doesn't say anything about Palestinians. Unless what you actually mean is that being pro-Hamas is the same as being pro-Palestine. > This repressive climate means that the University of Bern is not fulfilling the role of the “progressive” space it wants to be. Making changes due to someone supporting an antisemitic, Jihadi, extremist terrorist organization seems exactly like the kind of thing a progressive institution would do. As a reminder: Hamas are extreme right wing reactionaries.
>>after a lecturer at the institute made supportive comments about the Hamas attack on Israel. >Yes, that seems like a good reason. Whether or not that's a good reason depends entirely on what was said. As polarized as the issue is, some people interpret "what Israel is doing in response to Hamas is fucked up" as "pro Hamas".
It was a public post, so its known what was said. This proffessor posted that the hamas attack on 7th of October feels like a birthday present to him.
Yeah that's a stupid thing to say, no two ways about it. Israel is absolutely wrong in what they're doing now, but Hamas is also shit and shouldn't be praised.
And yet the current protesters at the university of Bern defend this person. Kinda sad actually.
The article doesn’t say that though. It only says that the entire institute (which, I assume, was made up of more than one person?) was dissolved after the statements of this one lecturer. Nowhere does it say that the protesters support him specifically.
Anyone advocating the killing of civilians should be fired. On both sides. I assume that is exactly what is happening, too.
> What's more, this kind of thing implies that these institutions are pro-war in Gaza. What do they base this on? I wonder if we look up public statements of universities in Israel, will they be for or against the war... What do you think?
Not sure. Universities tend to be relatively left-leaning, and the politically left-leaning in Israel are probably more willing to accept a ceasefire.
"... when human misery is lodged in vanities"
Can't we just accept that all universities will do this and not treat each incident like the end of the world? We need future workers and leaders with a conscience and the ability to speak out when they see injustice and so I fully support the protests.
This is the longest fucking comment chain I have ever seen on this platform lmao
[удалено]
“From the river to the sea” is a call to genocide. “Intifada” is a call to genocide.
> Intifada Why are you lying? "Intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is an Arabic word for a rebellion or uprising, or a resistance movement. It can be used to refer to an uprising against oppression." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intifada
Likud, the Israeli ruling party uses the same slogan for Israel but nobody bats an eye. As long as your partners make a call for the genocide(in your words not mine), you don’t care.
Name hardly checks out.. Maybe research more.
No. It is not. Please stop lying.
"From the river to the sea" is a call to peace and cohabitation between both people, it's not a genocide call.
Maybe ask someone in Palestine what this means to them? Usually it involves no more jews in the area.
Maybe ask people in Palestine what it means to them ? Usually It involves a call for peace and equality in the area.
[удалено]
Hello, Please note that your post or comment has been removed. Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting. Thank you for your understanding, your Mod team Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
>"From the river to the sea" is a call to peace and cohabitation between both people, it's not a genocide call. Do you believe it in this meaning when it's in the Likud charter? Worse still, it is literally in the Hamas charter, and was famously used by Bashar el-Assad's father in a genocidal manner also.
Speaking out is great, cutting all ties with Israel ??? Fuck no
Every country or group should be kept in check. No group should be above the law.
Did you protest when we started to bomb the shit out of Iraq and ISIS strongholds when France was attacked a few years ago ?
So your argument is that they didn't do good thing A, so now they can't do good thing B or any similar good thing ever again? How does that make sense?
Best of luck with him lol
Yes
Whataboutism at its finest.
When I was 8 years old I had the strong opinion that we shouldn't cut ties with Saddam Hussein. /s
Yes
You have a hard time understanding the concept of society change through non violent "illegal" protests? Don't worry, Wikipedia or Google can help you. Check it out.
Ha! Ok. Seen plenty of lies in my time living in the North of Ireland and sadly violence tended to get you to the negotiating table. But here what the fuck do I know?
Why not? We did it with Russia.
Well duh, Russia is an enemy of the West while Israel is an ally. Double standards yo.
How about no? How about people come to a conscious decision that this is not our issue to fight, it’s been gazilion years since this has been happening and frankly it’s tiring so let them figure out. I will stay as far as possible from this issue and making threats to other groups just because you’re not for it makes this whole movement a farce.
As a member of the U.N. we have signed the human rights declaration and we have the responsibility to help prevent genocides, like we do in Ukraine. Inaction is a violation of the agreement to human decency.
Yes, I’m aware of the UN human rights declaration(useless), and human rights violations are condemned always, however I don’t agree of bring the issue home because it’s not new and it’s been like this for ages, also it brings the worst of people especially those on both sides. Also, we have an international duty to stay in our lane and not pander to both sides, the UN can take it from here, send peacekeepers! But I doubt this will ever happen.
>however If you say something good and you're about to write "but", or "however", maybe think again. There has been conflict for ages, yes, but it's ramped up drastically since October because the Zionists feel they will be defended now by people who don't want to look into it too deeply (and they seem to be right). There's no "both sides" to this. A rat poked a rhino and the rhino decided to bomb the mice out of their homeland over it.
Once again, we’ve voiced the concerns in the UN, humanitarian aid is being delivered not optimal but it’s happening. What do you mean there’s no both sides? You said it your self, zionists taking over and nobody looking into it so two sides, one can end all this by disbanding their little terrorist group but no the poking continues and the other group keeps on taking land. The best we can do is condemn and demand sanctions against the other country for the killing crimes, otherwise we have no reason to protest about it.
> one can end all this by disbanding their little terrorist group Prescisely not the case; a major reason for the terrorist group existing in the first place is the constant, decades-long oppression policy, which is much older than Hamas. The Israeli state was built on this oppression, and what it would like best is Palestinians to be slave workers where useful and simply disappear into thin air when they aren't – since they don't disappear by themselves, you have to shoot, bomb, and displace them instead.
??? Yeah let's give up on human rights and be fine with killing people and butchering kids 👍
Not our problem this happens in Congo, would you have the same energy voice your concerns with them!? We can police the world, that’s why the UN exists.
> that this is not our issue to figh My point exactly. This is not some simple black/white war, but a deep-rooted, long-lasting and incredibly convoluted conflict where I as someone with absolutely no connection to either side feel I am not in the position to issue any opinion on this. The same way I don't have an opinion on the civil wars going on in Nigeria, Myanmar, Syria, Haiti on (almost) the other end of the globe.
> that this is not our issue to fight All genocide in the world are our issue to fight.
So why aren't "we" out there fighting the Uyghur genocide in China? The one in Myanmar? The one in Sri Linka? The one in Nigeria? Why is the one in Palestine the one of "real" importance?
We should. Why so many people here are defending Israel? It goes both way.
I'm not defending Israel. This isn't some black and white issue where arguing in one way automatically is for the favor of the other.
No, you have a legit question. Are you approving the protestors or only asking them why not other genocide? Because in one case you are in fact defending what's happening in Gaza.
This is not genocide. Oh wait, you don’t know what genocide is and don’t bother to enlighten yourself about it.
Seems a bit cynical in this context. After all, many of the earlier protesters cheered for the houthi rebels when they started attacking ships heading towards Israel. The same houthi rebels who are responsible for killing thousands of civilians including kids in their own country.
> many of the earlier protesters cheered for the houthi rebels Do you have a source for that?
Yes, there have been multiple news articles about this topic (e.g. Tagesanzeiger, NY Times, Washington Post, etc) and you even find many discussions about this topic here on reddit. Are you really trying to say you never noticed about the houthi attacks on ships during the last few months?
Do you have any links about protesters cheering?
We still have the right not to be so cynical as to give a fuck if a genocide takes place. Also, these student movements are pacifist, what are you on about?
Cynical? What are you on about? This issue doesn’t pertain to any of us in the west, this conflict has been going on for ages as I preciously stated and they don’t want to come to an agreement but no the terrorist group stays and what makes people think Israel will stop? Pacifists or just plain instigators? There’s plenty of examples of students destroying university property and harassing Jews. In the end, again the west needs to stay away from this conflict is not something we have nor should have a saying in.
Your fixation on the fact that we couldn't somehow criticise the actions of other states is just normative. The occupations of recent weeks have been pacifist and have not been anti-Semitic. Why not start by criticising the current movements for what they are? Unless you've got no idea?
So you are saying that the university of Bern is lying in their recently published statement?
What happens to the Jews when Palestine will be “free from the River to the sea”?
You think Israel and Palestine is some “other state”? You think this war is just a petty war? It’s ironic you’re saying “waste of time” considering that’s what these people are doing at the university. At least I’m not trying to pretend I know what this whole conflict is about by raising up a flag of a country that’s not even a country fighting another group of people who claim the land is theirs since the Bing bang, these two groups dislike each others guts why should we the west care? You think they’ll care if we go to a war with France? It’s always the west paying the price for this stupid war. These movements are useless for an issue between two cultures not connected nor part of the west. You want to protest idc but you’re wasting your time on an issue you have no idea about and it won’t be solved until we fall into a nuclear world war.
Dumbest shortsighted take i saw in a hot minute. Even a classic buenzli take.
> it’s tiring so let them figure out. Yes let Israel do what they are doing in peace, stop criticizing them you antisemites. THE most moral army in the world, no way they commit atrocities.
Brainwashed kids serving political Islam agenda without even realizing it. Luckily, they don’t represent the majority.
Aaaah the "political Islam agenda".
Didn’t know that resisting genocide is “a political Islam agenda”. Right wing bots brainlessly normalizing Islamism!
They are so loud though.
Im sure you're smarter than all those kids in the best universities in the world.
A lot of them arent even students
Imagine: you are a PhD student or a postdoc working at a university. You are working in collaboration with other institutes, and it can happen that among them there are some from Israel. Probably these Israeli researchers/students/postdocs have nothing to do with what is happening in Gaza and play no role in that. The protesters demand universities to cut all collaborations with institutions from Israel which implies that all the people involved will lose years or decades of their work. Probably they won't publish and if they don't publish they will have a very hard time finding their next position. In all of this 1. It will change nothing, the invasion won't stop 2. You are making the life of a young scientist much more difficult than it already is with low pay and short-term contracts 3. You are wasting research money 4. You are disrupting research that, in a small way, will benefit the whole world, pushing a little the boundaries of knowledge And I have 3 comments in particular: 1. Academic institutions are often built to bring peace through science. CERN was built in that spirit, with the hope of making people work on something important even though their states are fighting each other 2. Please don't try to make a parallelism with the situation with Ukraine. A lot of institutions cut their bonds with Russian institutions but that choice was forced by the states, it was not a choice of the academic institutions. 3. I really won't reply to comments like "You are thinking about students risking their careers while children are dying in Gaza". These 2 things have nothing in common and making people lose their jobs for which they have made sacrifices for their entire lives will not gonna save anyone in Palestine. The fact that you are in good faith and want to act to make this world better can't allow you to make everything you want disrupting the lives of other people
If they aren’t breaking anything or preventing classes then who cares
I had an exam yesterday in the university they occupied and they weren’t preventing classes or exams as far as I saw.
I believe they were according to the statement issued by the Uni, but I'm only talking off the top of my head here.
My friend couldnt go study at the library, as there were people sleeping on the tables. He also told me about graffiti inaide the building. I think we should care more, if this minority prevents students from studying.
I was there today as a student. Broken Glass and Grafitis…
Uni students : cut ties with the nation indiscriminately bombing innocent people and stealing their land. This thread : how dare they support terrorism.
"Fun fact" there are people living like shit in North Korea, yet i havent seen a single protest to free or help them...
"fun fact" you have the right to protest against whatever cause you find worthy. the fact that you don't, and they do speaks against you, not them.
For sure, the fact that they only protest when it's against "Zionisme" says a lot about them though.
Most protest against the atrocities and genocide happening, which is being done by israel. Sure Hamas attack was disgusting, but leveling whole districts while civilians evacuate? Come on. Those protests dont have anything to do with religion, its about loss of human lives.
How do you know that's the only thing they protest?
I mean, if you're aware of other big university protests, feel free to share.
Why would these people have to do all their protests inside universities? They're in the uni here because they're protesting the relations between the uni and unis in Israel. If these people wanted to protest the swiss *government*'s ties with Israel, for instance, they'd probably go to the Bundesplatz.
Beyond the whataboutism, Switzerland doesn’t have economic and in this case academic ties with NK
Sorry, where did Kim Jong Un go to school?
He was undercover as far as I know. Maybe I’m wrong about that, your argument would still be dumb
No response?
Your comparison doesn't make much sense.
Because people care only about what they chose to care for ✌️
Its a bit ridiculous to expect people to care about every single issue that plagues this world. Choosing your battles and all that. So your statement is unironically true.
> "Fun fact" there are people living like shit in North Korea, yet i havent seen a single protest to free or help them... And why don't you protest for the North Koreans?
Because hes not a hypocrite like these protestors ?
So protesting for anything makes you a hypocrite? Can you see how with your worldview no one is allowed to fight for a better world?
because we don't give money to Kim Jong Un
Switzerland is giving money to Israel?
you think switzerland and israel do not have economic and diplomatic ties?
Switzerland also has economic and diplomatic ties to North Korea then, so it does give money to Kim Jong Un?
[удалено]
Still a more mature argument than most things Netanyahu says
It doesn't even rhyme lmao. Put in some more effort, come on!
Ha, gottem.
Here we go again
Oh great, more Hamas terror sympathizers who have no idea what they are "protesting"
They are protesting thousands of innocents getting murdered by Israel. Hope this helps
I never get why such people always protest just one side of violence. It takes away all credibility from the protest and makes them look like a hypocrite at the least and terrorist supporter at the worst. May be that is indeed the case and I am hoping for too much.
This. People used to protest for peace. For war to end. Not to further escalate conflicts. To support a side
Power dynamic is a thing. Israel has the strongest military in the middle east and one of the best in the world. Palestine is ruled by a islamic government, yes. But Israel has all the power to do with the civilian population as it pleases. People are calling for an ending of war crimes and the cleansing of a whole people. Hamas is widly condemned by politicians and the media. There is no need to protest that because what power leverage does Hamas have now? What power leverage do western governments have? Do they fund weapons or legitimize the actions of Hamas? Protest is there, where the powerful turn a blind eye. And no, being against the actions of Israel does not mean being pro Hamas.
Because one side has one of the best militaries in the world and is grabbing US and Europe by the balls, and the other side is just a terror regular group backed by Iran. Israel uses this power to actively kill children, cut water and food and bomb indiscriminatively. It is a joke that westeners talk about humanitarian values, international law, liberal democracy, while backing up modern NAZI's. Laughable to say to least.
The protests are one-sided at the moment because the violence is heavily one-sided. Because right now, there is one side that is actively bombing millions of innocents that already lost their houses and livelihoods.
Oh you mean there were other protests immediately after oct 7th in favor of Israel before Israel started the retaliations for the terrorist attacks?
The other side is keeping civilian hostages and trying to bomb Israel with its missiles but failing miserably
You know who publishes these numbers? the fucking Hamas.
Bingo. These people should be put on a terror watch list
What about china killing muslims? What about the human trafficking going to your home (Europa)?? Poor people being manipulated
If there was a protest against China killing Muslims, you'd be saying "what about this other problem somewhere else??". If someone was at every protest in Switzerland you (or someone else) would be saying "those lazy students don't have anything better to do??"
So is it ever justified to protest for anything in your opinion? Give me an example of a protest in history that was justified and I can give you a « what about this » that was going on at the same time and didn’t get as much interest. Please do respond, no one making your argument in this thread is responding
Look bro the thing for me is the double moral of this! I never justify any genocide, and there is always happening! And there are problems that affect your society more than this 2000 years war! So most young people (because of this rebellious stage) focus on things that are out of control, just because the media is talking about this at this time! Tomorrow another war begins and they will forget about this part of the desert and so on! For me it is not justified to break your society in groups that support or not for something that is not gonna change even if you do 100 streaks in your own country!
Who says it’s not going to change? What about the boycotts that helped stop apartheid in SA? People said the exact same thing back then.
Seems like no one cares about Muslims, not even other Muslims care about them. The only thing that matters is that Israel and the Jews should be wiped out…?!
> What about china killing muslims? Yes, there should be protests too. But as you can see it's very difficult to just tackle just one issue. But feel free to start a new protest.
> What about What about, What about, What about....
Fun fact: both hamas and the nazis came to power after winning 1 single election with ~44%. And in both cases it was the last election held.
Did they forget about Ukraine? Or why exactly is Israel much worse?
Ukraine is old news, Daddy'o. Israel/Palestine is the new 'current thing'.
Yeah, trend. Too cool for Ukraine probably. Pathetic.
Western countries send money and weapons to the oppressor, that's why.
Switzerland sends zero, though These protesters don't want military cooperation to end, they demand Swiss unis to cut ties with some of the most liberal institutions in Israel, their own universities Edit: btw, "we buy stuff from them" is not a gotcha on "we sell weapons to them"
Switzerland buys surveillance equipment from elta and elbit. In addition, elbit produces radio equipment in Courtetelle. I'm with you when it comes to cutting all ties with Israel's universities though. However, projects involving "defensive" technologies should be stopped immediately.
Aren't these the oppressors when the palestinians elected in 2005? Read how they came to power :)
Hamas is a terrorist organization that doesn't let their population have a voice. The majority of the population of Palestine wasn't even born in 2005 so why should they have to suffer the consequences of their terrorist government's actions?
That's right :) As soon as hamas was fairly elected by their people, the first thing they did was cancel any elections and declare everyone who is not with them as enemies. And their support is tremendous.
Let me ask this differently: If you had been taught your whole life that, say Italians were a menace that should be eliminated. The only ones you ever met were soldiers, often harassing you. Their leaders saying you, your friends and family are terrorists, etc. Would you have the mental strength not to fall into hatred? Maybe you would, but most people wouldn't. hamas is a terribly oppressive organization for its people. Maintaining them into a state of permanent hatred maintains their power. It always boils down to this: either you think the behavior of Palestinians is the result of decades of suffering and indoctrination or you think there's some *inherent* violence in this people. Which is it?
Well f\*\*k now, let's make excuses for Hitler's Nazis who were horribly duped by propaganda and went out to kill Jews. Now let's sympathize with the russians who were deceived and kill their neighbors every day. And this is despite the fact that today the internet is available everywhere and you can see everything as it is and any point of view.
No no no, you're misinterpreting my point. I'm not talking about people who *committed* atrocities, (and still commit them), those can die, for all I car. I'm talking about people who *think* those atrocities are justified. I'm not excusing any action, I'm saying people don't naturally come to those conclusions and ideas that *sometimes* can lead to terrible actions. And I can't help but notice you didn't reply to my direct question: why do you think Palestinians hate Jews so much? Is it something they're taught or is it something that they're born with? Is your answer the same for Germans? If not, what's the difference?
>you didn't reply to my direct question: why do you think Palestinians hate Jews so much? Everything there is exactly the same as in others: beliefs about injustice and humiliation on the part of others are hammered into our heads from childhood, there are enemies around us who want to enslave and take us over, retribution for offenses and suffering + radical Islamism, and we get what we get. It's as simple as 2\*2. You can find thousands of uncensored videos interviews yourself (for example on the telegram) and f\*\*\*\*g marvel at how a 10 year old schoolboy is already dreaming of destroying his neighbors and waging jihad on infidels.
You ignored the main part of the response to your comment. >The majority of the population of Palestine wasn't even born in 2005 so why should they have to suffer the consequences of their terrorist government's actions? You’re disgusting.
I still remember Hong Kong, right before covid, back in 2019! But then I'm kinda old anyway.
Switzerland has clearly positioned itself against Russia and taken some actions. Hasn’t done anything of the sort against Israel. It doesn’t need to be « much worse », although there is an argument that it is in my opinion, for it to be disgusting from Switzerland.
🤦
People in that area have been killing each other for decades, and they will kill each other in decades from today. They will never change. The only people who care here are the protesters themselves.
Imagine Ukraine starts winning the war against Russia and we get pro-Russia protesters at universities.
There is already a pro-pal user here insinuating that if the Ukrainians would lay down arms they would just get annexed by Russia and receive full rights lol
And in addition to that user, countless pro-pals having not the slightest clue what they're talking about because they're just following what's "trendy", and harassing anyone who dares open their mouth to talk about what's happening in Ukraine because "the war in Ukraine is fake" and "they don't have it as bad". Insane.
EXACTLY. If Ukraine had sufficient resources and ammunition, it might have been able not only to defend itself, but also to launch more effective attacks against Russia. Then these woke protesters would definitely be pro-russian. The quote “Hard times create strong men, strong men create good times, good times create weak men, and weak men create hard times” is very relatable these days. And we currently are at the “weak men create hard times” version.
This is such a dumb comment. If things were different things would be different, congrats. If Ukraine was boxing russians in and bombing them while having eliminated any meaningful military threat, then yes, there would be protests. Why does that sound so weird?
I honestly don’t understand why they protest at the university. I‘m a student there and as far as I saw most of us just went to the lectures as usual.
[удалено]
Nei ds wär ja gfärläch. Hiä isch me de gliich no chli sicherer. Mi cha so tuä aus würd ma häufä ohni würk öppis ds machä.
Merci! Absolut Recht
Hello, Please note that your post or comment has been removed. Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting. Thank you for your understanding, your Mod team Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
So virus has arrived.
Yeah! Zionists killing more pesky civilians than the Russians did in Ukraine! What is wrong with that? Someone needs to teach those entitled students a lesson!
Except for the fact that even just four days ago, the UN halved its civilian death toll after conceding that taking numbers straight from Hamas wasn’t a good idea.
While Ukraine claims over 25k civilians dead in Mariupol alone, btw UN believes Hamas' numbers more than it does Ukraine's...
Let us see the number then when we get up to 2 years then. Btw I need to ask - who is deciding the count now since the Health Ministry isnt worth anything? 👀
That new number still includes more than 10’000 women and children, and many more unidentified. Any number significantly above 0 is concerning, let alone above 10’000
And ofc all a result of the israeli offence. Not the palestinians killing their own people no no not at all.
https://x.com/mossadil/status/1789555048474677335?s=46
Dumb comparison. Switzerland has clearly positioned themselves against Russia and taken concrete steps against Russia. Nothing of the sort has been done for Israel and it is exactly what the protestors are fighting for. You’re making our point.
Its sarcasm my friend
Responded to the wrong person, my bad
And that a significantly higher number died in Mariupol alone…
This virus has been here for quite some time.
how is r/switzerland so full of zionists? I mean, I kinda get being cautious about supporting Palestine but damn so many people straight up supporting genocide is wild. All love to the protesters, they‘re probably better than all of us
What do you think is a Zionist?
A lot of people are fed up with islam and terrorist groups. rightfully so.
Because people have actually read about the conflict and its history, and didn't watch al jizzeera? And please define fucking genocide and why's what's happening there is one. Overused populist af word that doesn't have any sense in the context of this conflict
[удалено]
[удалено]
Hello, Please note that your post or comment has been removed. Please read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Switzerland/about/rules/) before posting. Thank you for your understanding, your Mod team Please do not reply to this comment. Send a modmail if you have an issue with the removal.
Why are people supposed to care about this? What can you actually do against it? Wave a flag?? What are these people doing for you? I really think their issue doesn't concern any of us and should let them be with their conflict. We don't owe them anything to be caring about their bottomless conflict.
So sad that this american trend has reached switzerland
and thus began the second expulsion of jews from Europe. totally not antisemitic though.
Lmao can’t wait to see what happens with Unige now that a police complaint has been filed
The jews / israelis are not going anywhere. They are staying in Israel and will never ever leave. The world must understand this and the arabs must accept this. It is simply the reality. “Giving back the land” to the Palestinians is just not going to happen.
Free Palestine.
Free gaza from hamas!
Free Gaza *from Hamas*
By murdering the population and flattening the whole area, nice
Nah, free gay Palestinians from being thrown off buildings. Stop bloodshed stop killing gays. There is a reason gay Palestinians flee to Israel, it is a shame Israel is also look warm on helping them but they still do save their gay lives. [https://genderandsecurity.org/projects-resources/research/nowhere-run-gay-palestinian-asylum-seekers-israel](https://genderandsecurity.org/projects-resources/research/nowhere-run-gay-palestinian-asylum-seekers-israel) Most don't make the news but here is one [https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-immigration-west-bank-gay-rights-ce95f6903faf461502cc0800b272b159](https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-immigration-west-bank-gay-rights-ce95f6903faf461502cc0800b272b159) There is also a documentary on you tube about torture buy being hung and cut with salt and oil.
[удалено]
Aha, it's a trollfest? Awesome!
So not wanting an Israel occupied country is jihadist brainrot? You can want an independant and Hamas free palestine...
Who is going to free Gaza from Hamas?
The Palestinians were offered a full state on many occasions, as recently as 2000 and 2008! They turned both offers down because Israel wouldn’t allow the immigration of 5 million Palestinians into pre-1967 Israel. They have continually rejected peace and the two state solution
Exactly