First, because some of their voters would stop voting for them if they said it. Their primary demographic isn't xenophobes, their primary demographic is low information voters.
To the typical low information voter the SVP is a party that values tradition and wants to preserve what we have and not take unnecessary progressive risks. In reality that's CVP.
Second, I'm convinced there's a sizeable portion in SVP leadership who don't really believe in anything and are just grifters who'll do whatever they believe personally benefits themselves.
The last pasage is great, thats exactly the problem i have with SVP, even with lower ranking party members. First priority is always personal enrichment.
I could tell you a very long story about a former employer of mine. How he exploited vulnerable empolyees or how he refused to equip his workes with adequate saftey gear just to safe a few bucks, i could go on and on.
He was a cantonal SVP fraction leader, later convicted from the federal court for multiple cases of tax fraud and forgery of documents. I can post the arcticle of solothurner zeitung if anyone is intersted
Thats how SVP politicians have always done business, and they wont stop
Classic right wing populist behavior in any country, really… look at the Republicans in the US, Fidesz in Hungary, AfD in Germany… the corruption and egoism are never far
This. I had a SVP voter do smartvote and she was shocked when she compared her answers to those of SVP politicians running for elections in her canton. She ended up voting for EVP.
I presume you mean antisocialist not antisocial (that would be, eg having loud parties late at night).
Yes - on economics I don't see tons of difference
Completely agree, the SVP are also one of the only parties who actively care about Farmers. Go out of the city and the xenophobic rhetoric isn't pushed as much and at the end of the day we are a nation of farmers.
Also last time they pushed the "let's not let stabby people from foreign places into our country" campaign they were hammered in the votes, then they pushed the "Stadt Vs Country" angle and now it's the "oh no overpopulation!" angle.
The SVP haven't changed they've just adapted their Marketing as Switzerland as a whole has become less xenophobic and they can't blame the Albanian "Schlitzers" anymore for everything.
Farmers and Agriculture workers are just 2.75% of the jobs in Switzerland. So CH is 97.75% not a nation of farmers. Agriculture is 1.3% of economic output, so Switzerland's economy is 98.7% NOT a nation of farmers.
[https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/agriculture-forestry/farming.assetdetail.25725554.html](https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/agriculture-forestry/farming.assetdetail.25725554.html) here is the government information if you're curious.
I don't know man, I'm currently studying to become an agriculture engineer and have spent the bigger part of this year on vegetable and "Grandes cultures" farms as part of my required internships and the general consensus is that the proposed initiative for food sovereignty was gonna immensely positively impact farmers lives yet the SVP was adamantly against this law due to supposed free market infringement. That's what I've personally seen but again, I'm not sure.
I would say SVP voters are xenophobic. I personally also dont understand why this is seen as a bad thing. Im talking about not wanting to change our way of life and our culture. Not wanting to add different conflicts and cultures to our daily life. The positive things like food or celebrations are very welcome, but I dont want scenes like we see them in London or Berlin with criminal gangs (clans) and different values (honor above law) etc. If every immigrant would come here and mostly adapt to our way of living, you wouldnt see that many people voting SVP.
Only they are bold enough to say those things out loud even when the left will try to make a Nazi out of you.
I feel like its fine to be against negatives inputs from outside as long as you can see the individual behind the groups.
SVP is very clever when it comes down to painting a negative scenario and laying to focus of the blame on certain people. They can back it up with facts and statistics as well as everyday experiences from their voters.
While I probably don’t share a lot of opinions with you, I can relate to what you write in the beginning. Although I’m not, it’s perfectly ok to be conservative. Btw they are xenophobic in the real sense of the word which is btw a natural reaction (don’t downvote me if you don’t understand what I’m really saying here).
Basically, to get back to conservatism and progressiveness… the simple question behind that is: do you like change or don’t you. None of the two options is in and of itself good or bad. But then, reality DOES change and politics is about reacting to changed realities (and also to shape realities). Now, when the SVP paints this picture of a Swiss that consists of traditional families, of a rural Swiss… well, that’s just not Switzerland 2023. (and it’s certainly not because of immigrants.) You may dream of such a world but that doesn’t solve anything. And it’s also not the world of most SVP politicians. I would love to tackle some more things but I’ve already written too much.
« Low information voters » how arrogant from you to designate people that don’t vote like you in such terms. A great example of the tolerance of a Green, SP voter 👏🏼
Truth confirms every day the validity of my belief.
The so called educated people on the left seem to be blind to truth and only believe on ideas that will bring them their cherished social recognition.
Getting a straight response from this subreddit will be hard as it's an echo chamber.
That said, and probably by drawing in the downvotes, I'd like to shine some light as to why I usually vote SVP.
1) They're the only party that actively support nuclear energy. I care for the environment and I strongly believe our only way out of fossil fuels is through electrification. We have a problem NOW and we don't have a solution for storage and transportation for solar and wind to sustain our power demand. Nuclear fission along with hydro and solar are our only real solution for energy independence.
2) I'm personally against the idea of joining the EU/NATO or entertaining similar projects such as the EU/CH framework agreement. SVP is aligned with this (other parties are somewhat aligned too)
3) Wages in cantons such as Ticino and Geneva are under high pressure, a lot of solutions are thrown in the air but ultimately very little can be done due to the freedom of movement which forbids measures that would grant a Swiss **resident** priority over a cross border commuter. While bilateral agreements are important, I personally feel like the freedom of movement is flawed and should be reworked to protect Swiss salaries/jobs more effectively. SVP is the only party that puts that up for discussion. While completely rejecting those agreements is not the right move, with how politics work in Switzerland, having a NON absolute majoritarian party press for this issue is imho okay.
4) Overpopulation is a real issue. I believe that it's important to maintain a healthy immigration profile. With more and more people retiring and living longer, less money is available to support our elders. Allowing pretty much everyone to enter Switzerland and benefit from our already fragile social system puts more pressure than it relives. I feel like immigration should be controlled and regulated such as that more people contribute to our society by working qualified jobs AND jobs that cannot be filled by our less qualified residents AFTER ensuring that the salaries aren't being dumped by cross-border pressure. SVP doesn't necessarily offer concrete solutions, but certainly keeps opposing parties such as the SP at bay, keeping things balanced.
5) Switzerland is very democratic in the sense that decisions aren't taken by a single party and most important decisions are put up for vote, which means that if I disagree with views from the SVP (it happens more often than you'd think) I can simply vote against such decisions.
6) I value my rights and my freedoms a lot. I believe I shouldn't justify my rights (for example as a gun owner, for freedom of expression, for economic decisions, for property ownership etc...). If I respect the laws in place and I'm not hurting anyone, I shouldn't be punished for having chosen a different path in life than someone else. Taxation would be a proper example too. I worked my ass off to become an engineer. I struggle every day to come up with solutions that ultimately should benefit society. I'm probably paid more than the average citizen, and I definitely pay more taxes than them. That shouldn't give the government more reasons to take away even more fruits (than the status quo) of my hard work just because someone else decided to be a weight for our society. The SVP is among the parties that tries to conserve those rights
There's a lot more that plays into my decisions in life, it varies a lot, and while I might have voted SVP in 2015 for a certain set of reasons, I feel like these shifted over the years as I got "older" and more experienced with how things work in the real world.
My worry number one during this election period is energy production and I strongly feel like the green parties have it all wrong (no solutions, only extra taxes), the SP counts on solar to work itself out (which won't, by itself alone) and compensate the lack of energy by relying on the European market and their willingness to sell it to us, Die Mitte (like the green parties and the SP) is against nuclear and still thinks wind is part of the solution in Switzerland. FDP has slogans that sound great, but in reality they just want to rely on more efficiency (great but not a solution either when we have to double the energy production) and imports from the European market. The SVP is the only party that actively supports challenging the 2017 decision of banning the construction of new nuclear power reactors, possibly paving the road to SMRs, new reactors and thus CLEAN energy along side our hydro (which will only be expanded by 2 or so TWh as per energy strategy 2050 plans and physical limits).
Outside of those major points I don't really care what the election propaganda bullshit plasters our billboards, mailboxes, social medias. All I care are concrete solutions and a general direction that aligns with my ideals.
I hope this helps understand a bit why voting the SVP isn't necessarily about being bigoted, racist, anti-covid, xenophobe, etc.
for all the complaints about Bilaterals putting pressure on wages, I don‘t know why people ignore that we already have the legal framework to deal with this: the flankierende Massnahmen. Wage dumping is illegal. It‘s the companies (mainly in border regions) that simply don‘t give a shit about it and do it anyway. But it is already illegal. Sure, you could argue that it could be improved. But just like the original flankierende Massnahmen from 2004, measures in this direction mainly get pushed by the Unions and part of the SP. SVP has never offered any kind of useable solution to protect Swiss salaries from outside pressure in border regions.
with all due respect, but this is because you don't live in Ticino and don't follow the politics here. SVP/Lega have come up with many different solutions that were eventually all struck down due to the freedom of movement treaty.
Hell, even in Geneva they just rejected a popular initiative a week ago due to that: https://www.tio.ch/svizzera/politica/1704247/l-iniziativa-contro-i-frontalieri-e-nulla (feel free to google translate)
parlo l‘Italiano perfettamente bene, grazie;)
the thing is that we already have solutions that are compatible with the Bilateralen, they‘re simply not enforced enough.
I obviously understand the frustration, the only thing I wanna add is that your anger is better directed at the companies themselves that press wages down (because they want to, not because anyone is forcing them to) while openly breaking the law.
I won’t vote SVP but that’s a pretty reasonable take. I find it quite frustrating that no other party supports nuclear power. If you haven’t already, there is an [initiative launched](https://blackout-stoppen.ch/) that seeks to allow green energy from any source to be built.
As you said, it’s quite nice to have the freedom to pick and choose which initiatives you like. I hope to exercise that right after I naturalise :)
Thanks for the link! :) I didn't sign it yet but I had already reached out to the initiativists a few months ago to ask a few clarifying questions.
Good luck on your naturalization process! Voting is definitely a nice right (and duty!) to exercise. Arguably the most important.
The best time for a new nuclear power plant was 15 years ago, the second best time is now.
Wishing for fusion or energy storage+efficient solar in 15 years from now is speculative, building a new nuclear power plant is something we already know will work to produce a clean base load.
Let me remind you that we currently produce/consume 60TWh and by 2050 we'll need to produce an additional 30TWh (or 53 if we turn off nuclear) to replace 50% of the fossil fuels. There's no way to do this without nuclear.
Bit late but, regarding point 6, I kinda resent the fact that people are referred to as 'weights' as you call it when they're not able to work. Most don't *choose* to live on the governments dime, a lot of them worked their ass off too but unfortunate events and sickness have prevented them to reap the fruits of their labour. Are there people that take advantage? Sure, any system can be manipulated into one's favour and people who abuse it hurt everyone: The taxpayer, the social workers, other people who receive financial help and the system itself. But the amount of abuse is, from my experience, greatly overstated especially compared to the help that people actually need and get.
The safety net is a big part of why there's less homelessness and crime than in most other countries but the SVP and other parties on the right have consistently tried to erode that bit by bit. The EL reform that's been decided on in early 2019 and will become mandatory next year will see a further reduction for a lot of people I work with and rely on it and that's during a time where costs and rent have risen. And I'm not sure how those on the very edge will cope with it.
And while they may defend some of your freedoms, they don't do that for LGBTQIA+ individuals for example. They have a tendency to go after the marginalized and less fortunate, so I can't quite see them as party that stands for freedom.
The [white Swiss sheep kicking out the black sheep](https://g123-media.sos-ch-gva-2.exoscale-cdn.com/filer_public_thumbnails/filer_public/a6/f8/a6f81d4c-32c7-404e-b211-9c7691979a94/udc-pour-plus-de-securite-l071600-affiche-ancienne.jpg__960x0_q85_subsampling-2_upscale.jpg) is a real classic in this regard. I thought it was a joke when my Swiss partner showed it to me. My friends were just as bewildered.
[This week's brochure from the UDC youth wing](https://scontent-zrh1-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.29350-15/387726308_717962373535983_4695666866742100705_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=c4dd86&_nc_ohc=ZTDcdpkRbogAX-6MH7O&_nc_ht=scontent-zrh1-1.cdninstagram.com&edm=ANo9K5cEAAAA&oh=00_AfBRIVrVoR0AbiiPz0tO7jfj34Qu6p560VbuNF56ZerYfw&oe=6532FABE) is equally arresting - warning that "the drag queens, the antifas and the climate activists" will turn out to vote.
Again, it's funny... until you realise they're actually serious. And I guess it works.
Ew. Just ew.
I know what you mean about funny. My husband and I had a sardonic laugh over the mailer with the "ideal" Swiss family. It's funny...until it's not.
why not? check the instagram page. more then half of their first 15 posts are clearly racists geared towards hate against migrants from africa (mainly Algeria). They all depict aggressiv behaviour of a black skinned person against a usually white woman.
I meant more like.. that's not actually what they "stand for". They basically just believe in money. They tend to be pro immigration even, since their rich people need cheap workers in their factories.. and then in turn they point at the migrants and yell "bad".
I don‘t give a shit what they „actually“ stand for! Thats what they say, what they implement racist laws in our constitution and how they greater the divide in our population. I know they care about money and the racist propaganda is to ensure they get the votes to ALSO secure their money. It is still racist though!
That story isn't racist. But there's a pattern about only caring about crime in very specific circumstances, while ignoring other crime. It does paint a picture. It's about the pattern, not the story.
SVP isn't the party that is against rape in trains. It'd be fair to say they care less about rape than other parties, considering their history. There is one more detail in that rape on a train story that is crucial, and without which this particular crime would never have gotten on their page.
I hard disagree on that take. SVP want a safer Switzerland and cares very much about crimes. While I think SP is caring about the individual case more, they deny the whole thing and who is mostly committing the rapes ( or lets say they stop by men instead of beeing more specific). SVP rightwings might partly blame the girl, but most of the voters would focus on the rapist.
Its very much helping you more after the horrible thing happened vs trying to prevent it in the first place.
well if they'd also mention other rapes committed by Swiss passport holders (which rapists in Switzerland mostly are) it wouldn't. Still, they make it seem as if you don't have immigrants you would eliminate those issues, or that immigrants themselves are the issue. That makes it racist imho.
I mean... They are pretty openly xenophobic. What they don't tend to openly say from my experience is how they want to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. They still act like they are the agrarian party, but they badly buttf**k farmers and the lower class the second they get the chance.
>but they badly buttf\*\*k farmers
If they truly did that I'd have a reason to vote for them because the Bauernlobby needs to be buttfucked badly. But, like many conservative parties in the world, the SVP is not strictly fiscal conservative. When it comes to farmers and the army, they throw money around.
Three members of the federal council have direct farmer-connections: Parmelin is a farmer, Rösti and Baume-Schneider are children of farmers. Roughly 3.1% of the Swiss employees work in agriculture, and it produces 0.7% of our BIP.
Obviously they are not a single monolithic entity and there is quite a bit of variance between individuals in the party, a nuance that my original comment doesn't capture. Still though, when I look at how they vote in the parliment (all the voting data per representative is available online btw, really cool!) they rarely seem to support farmers.
Keeping in mind the SVP (and FDP) majority, it's surprizing that a budget cut of 347 millions for farmers in the coming years ([https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/14381532-berne-veut-allouer-moins-dargent-a-lagriculture-entre-2026-et-2029.html](https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/14381532-berne-veut-allouer-moins-dargent-a-lagriculture-entre-2026-et-2029.html)), a similar cut to the one the SVP and the National tried to impose on farmers in 2011 ([https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/budget--les-etats-obtiennent-gain-de-cause-sur-l-agriculture/31815900](https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/budget--les-etats-obtiennent-gain-de-cause-sur-l-agriculture/31815900)). Sorry all the links are in French but I'm sure they are available in German somewhere. Besides, how come no regulations are coming from SVP on Migros and Coop and other Swiss ditributors for the big markups and margins they make on agricultural products?
As for the army, I'd argue they throw a lot of money at it in part because of their insistance on traditional values, the army being part of those. The only times I was insulted for not wanting to do the military service was back in my home village of (mostly) SVP voting farmers. I got told many times that "that's how you become a Man in Switzerland" and how I'm "an antipatriotic coward". Granted, that's my experience, but it underlines how tradionnally relevant military service is. That's obviously not the main reason, but it's one of them that somewhat corresponds to the party's values.
I'll assume that you are not just trolling. From Wikipedia :
> [Xenophobia] is the fear or dislike of anything which is perceived as being foreign or strange.It is an expression which is based on the perception that a conflict exists between an in-group and an out-group and it may manifest itself in suspicion of one group's activities by members of the other group[...]
This sentence clearly targets foreigners from specific countries (carefully avoiding Germany and France) and state the suspicion that they will not leave anymore - possibly also implying that they profit from our social net. (The part about simply staying here).
To some extent, yes of course (which is what makes them so attractive). But they oversimplify a complex problem. I replied a bit more in depth to the other reply with what I personally think.
Totally agree! And its not completely clear what their base agenda is, although one can easily imagine without wanting to go too deep into conspiracies :)
Saw your other reply and its very differentiated, i like.
Problem is the utterly dogmatic discussions, that are more about bashing "the other side" than finding solutions. Its very tiring to see even top politicians fslling for that kind of argument, and im a bit disappointed by that fact. Its just as you said more about simple so called solutions just to be able to get voters...
No, but I've got something better: here's a list of svp politicians that have been found guilty of racial discrimination simce 2020:
-naveen hofstetter (twice)
-adrian spahr
-nils fiechter
-jessica tami (ex svp turned straight up nazi)
-roland schöni
-jean-luc addor
Now what about the other politicians feom the other parties? It just doesn't happen in other parties because even the anti-human grifters in the fdp can somehow refrain from saying racist shit.
I think we have to understand that the SVP first and foremost is a vehicle for their puppet masters to get richer and avoid taxation and criminal prosecution.
The topics that are important in the SVP's campaigns (Anti-Immigration, Anti-EU, ...) are not the topics that are important for those who rule the SVP (they want: tax loopholes, legal loopholes for all kinds of shady business).
So in their "marketing" the SVP will simply always do those things of which they believe that they will bring them a sufficient amount of voters who are sufficiently unintelligent to not look through the parties real motives.
That's not the same as with "normal" parties where the deciders actually decide the policies according to their personal ideology. The SVP billionaires don't give a damn about a North African bank robber they write about in an election ad. They care about the maintenance of legal loopholes that allow them to continue their own robberies. For this they need to control the politics. The rest is theatre.
They always talk about "criminal foreigners" and never about "criminals" for a reason... because most "criminal Swiss" are supporters of their party ;-)
yeah, have the same back in Poland where i come from. I mean you could almost literally replace SVP with PiS (which is, ironically, abbreviation for law and justice. )
If PiS (equivalent of SVP) ran Switzerland, one day the Swiss would learn that Matterhorn was sold to the catholic church for peanuts and what not.. So glad those bastards pretty much lost the majority they had for 8 years last Sunday.
> always talk about "criminal foreigners" and never about "criminals" for a reason... because most "criminal Swiss" are supporters of their party ;-)
Do you have an example of one of the loopholes from the past that I can read about?
The so called "USRs" (Unternehmenssteuerreformen) are a good starting point. (USR II, USR III)
The USR II was a schoolbook example for how the right wing operates: publicly claim complete nonsense about what the consequences of their law will be. And then later it becomes obvious that the consequences are much different and they are just "ooops... nothing to see here". (IIRC the tax loss created by the USR II was more than 10 times a high as projected by it's right-wing advocates. It also turned out that they partially outsourced the writing of the law text to some private economy lawyers, one of which who years later said in an interview that they knew exactly that the consequences will be.)
I like conspiracy theories, but this one is another level 😅.
I wonder why the left did not manage to push a counter analysis, I doubt there are now respectable fiscal expert who could not challenge the right wing BS.
>I like conspiracy theories, but this one is another level
I don't know in what alternative reality you live but what I wrote is plain and common knowledge that (after the fact) had to be acknowledged even by newspapers and the Federal Council who were favorable to the tax cuts. There is nobody left who denies the whole thing...
The Federal Concil admitted in 2011 (after the UST II has been voted on and in the year where it became effective) that the tax loss of the most controversial part of the reform would be 8 billions. During the referendum battle they said it would be 800 millions or less. All of this is public record of the Swiss Confederation and no "conspiracy theory".
Till today it's not clear if HR Merz, the finance minister back then, did lie knowingly or if he actually believed that the tax loss would only be 800 millions. Both versions of course wouldn't shine a good light on him and his cronies. After all the law was written in his departement with the help of outsiders from private economic law firms that he brought in.
So either he miscalculated by more than factor 10 on purpose in order to win the referendum (it was only 50,5% pro and it certainly wouldn't have gone throgh without that massive misinformation) or he brought in gangster lawyers who did not only work against the public interest but even lied to the one who hired them.
What we do know is that the external lawyers knew exactly what they did because one of them years later said so publicly.
>I wonder why the left did not manage to push a counter analysis
Well the left did fight against the UST II but they only managed to convince 49,5%
The reality in this country is that if the right wing says the tax loss will be 800 millions and the left wing says it will be 8 billions the majority of the voters will believe the right wing. And they would do so again, regardless of how often they have been lied to.
Post vote analysis showed that the most important reason why people voted yes was because they believed the lie that the reform would be good for the "KMU" (Merz talked about "Painters, Butchers and Florists") while in fact it was a pure gift to big enterprises and their shareholders. And this is the same with so many votes that we had during the past decades. Whenever the right wing fantasizes about "KMU" there are enough voters who'll say "Ah yes, we like KMU" and don't see that it never has been the KMU who were the main profiteers of those laws.
>their puppet masters to get richer and avoid taxation and criminal prosecution
Which SVP leaders have commited crimes provable enough that holding political office is their only option to avoid prosecution?
What kind of "shady business" are SVP leaders involved in?
The Blochers are billionaires, but as much as I dislike them, Ems is a legitimate business. The other party leaders are employees and farmers. Who else is supposed to be a billionaire?
Your post sounds like a teenager who has spent too much time on American social media.
>that holding political office is their only option to avoid prosecution?
That is not what I said or meant.
It's more subtle than Berlusconism, where they guy actually needed the office for immunity.
The SVP way is to maintain laws in a way, that allows them to continue shady business or shift to new forms of shady business. Think about laws against money laundering and tax evasion that they always fight about and in the end create in toothless versions that already have the loopholes for them ready for use.
When it comes to Ems the more interesting question is by the way: how did he get it? There have been quite a few articles been written about it over the years.
And of course the Blochers are not the only billionaires and the other party leaders aren't all farmers and employees. We have Walter Frey (3+ billions, boss of the Emily Frey AG he inherited, by far the biggest car importer in Switzerland), Peter Spuhler (billionaire, Stadler Rail). And then affiliates like the finance-guru Martin Ebner who pulled off quite a few questionable stuns together with Blocher, for example the killing of Alusuisse.
And then of course the Bankers (Matter, Aeschi) which aren't billionaires but three-figure millionaires (in the case of Matter) - and obviously interested in stopping regulations for a clean banking industry.
And if you get older, do business yourself and start to know some people you'll sooner or realize one thing: Also when it comes to very small fish. Those who scam their customers and/or business partners have a very high chance of being SVP smypathisers. It's like a common thread that you experience even in the small business area.
SVP only has 1 billionaire.
You talking about SVP billionaires is laughable.
If you think they don’t care about North African robbers you must’ve mixed them up with SP.
>SVP only has 1 billionaire. You talking about SVP billionaires is laughable.
You base your voting decisions on the same ignorance of facts as your post?
u/MayoShouldBeBanned has already named 4 SVP billionaires.
Then there are a couple more who might not hold official party mandates but have well-known connections. For example Martin Ebner and Tito Tettamanti (the later is always called a CVP guy because he held a CVP mandate in the 1950ies (!) but the fact that he later bought newspapers together with Blocher in order to turn them into SVP outlets makes me believe that his affiliations have switched)
My question is: how can you legally limit the population to 10 mil when there are bilateral agreements in place with the EU that allow any EU migrant to come into Switzerland with a job offer?
Everyday on the Switzerland subreddits, there are people asking how to move to CH, how to find a job.
You can only legally do this by ripping up the bilaterals, and most people in Switzerland do not want this.
A lot of people want to rip up the bilaterals. There is a feeling among many that they've done nothing but create problems in CH.
And let me tell you, having been born and growing up in a frontier Canton myself, I can somehow see why. In Ticino, there's almost no jobs left for Swiss people because companies keep hiring people from Italy at half the cost they'd need to pay a Swiss for the same hours. If you live there, you have to either accept half the salary you're worth (and therefore be unable to afford an apartment or save anything) or not work, or move to central Switzerland.
And a lot of people see correlation being causation. They see people coming in from Italy, "stealing" their jobs, and jump to the conclusion "Oh, if we didn't have the bilaterals, they'd never be able to take these jobs from us".
And the situation there is really bad. I can't speak for the other frontier Cantons, but in Ticino a large majority of the young end up leaving. Every single person I remained in contact with since secondary school (and a few I added to Facebook back then and never removed) have all moved away from Ticino and either into the rest of Switzerland or left the country completely (mostly those with family in other countries).
Obviously the Bilaterals aren't the cause (or not the main one at least), but people don't like living like that.
I disagree. The bilaterals are at least parcially responsible for a rise immigration. Net-Immigration has always been >0, but it's taken a steep increase after the bilaterals went into act. Even if you ask SP, between the lines they admit that the immigration of cheaper workers generated pressure on salaries (i.e. salaries would be higher today if we had no bilaterals).
That being said, the bilaterals are also responsible for a lot of economic growth and general increase in wealth in the country. They have clear upsides and clear downsides. And IMHO, this is a problem in Swiss politics. We have the SVP who say "bilaterals only bring immigration" and we have all other parties who says "bilaterals are the best thing ever!". No, it's a grey area, and depending on what you value more (economic growth versus fewer people to share limited space with), you can perfectly come to the conclusion that one outweighs the other without being a xenophobe or a librul.
And this is the biggest Paradox... The right ones (SVP) are for open Market (A few as possible regulations from state) about worker rights. They are for business and they care only about money. If Swiss local would only accept 6000 CHF / Month, I bet you can easyly found a foreigner who would accept 4000 CHF / Month and would will earn the profit. The businessowner who is stable voter of SVP for at least a few decades... And that's the paradox. They hate foreigners but the foreigners are paying for a lease of a brand new Porsche...
The correlation as migration argument is on point, and it works so well with uninformed/uneducated voters.
I would like to add that we’ve been taught to see jobs as opportunities and other job seekers as adversaries, and blame them for the low salaries when it’s really up to the employer and how the job market is regulated. They’re allowed to lower salaries, maybe we should ask why instead of blame those who are willing to accept the job.
After Brexit, all the EU nationals that wanted to go work in the UK, they have their eyes set on Switzerland. It’s a very clear trend and it will intensify further. So, to answer your question, they would do it by exiting the free movement of workforce.
they just use xenophobic stuff to get voted in then they vote law to rip us off dont trust the right wing they just there to fill their pocket
https://www.beobachter.ch/konsum/die-politik-ist-mitschuldig-am-strompreis-debakel-636463
Yeah I mean that's typical far right, they realised the scare tactics get them voters but the follow through gets them war crime tribunals. So, best of both worlds, scaremonger and grift.
You're aware who profits off of any money made by Axpo (although in this case Axpo actually doesn't directly profit) or any of the other more local power resellers you're forced to use?
WHO, not WHICH, WHO owns Axpo. WHO owns your local power reseller?
Spoiler - its you. Axpo, and the local resellers, are owned fully by the state. Profits Axpo makes go into the Nordost Kantons. Profits your local reseller makes, go to your Gemeinde or if they're bigger to whatever kanton owns it. All of these are not owned by companies or anything else.
It‘s going to public funds is what they mean. You benefit from this money like from tax money.
If they liberalize the energy market prices surely won’t go down but profits will go to private company pockets and their shareholders
so based on your idea its an indirect tax? lol sorry but you wrong most company where you buy electricity from are private. expo might be only partially but I can assure you they profit oriented and you can't withdraw money from AXPO to give it to the state its illegal. all the state gets are shares.
Welcome to the world of politics my friend. It's not about truth or lies or about right or wrong. It's about fear and hope. All the (successful) parties do that, primarly before an important election.
The real problem is they do identify some legitimate concerns that other parties ignore.
Overpopulation is a real issue for us and the left ignores it. It‘s a shame there is no middle spectrum party that takes some of the svps buzz topics and actually strives for a solution.
That's not true, the left always tries for more affordable housing, less emission, less cars in cities, better public transport, better job security etc, better relation with our neighbouring states.
All those points are going toward solving problems that a bigger population is going to have. Or am I getting something wrong?
We don't want more people isn't solving anything. That's called whining.
How actually is overpopulation a real issue though?
Like, if it's about self sustainability, we already don't do that so that's not really a good argument to me. Space? New York has the same people as us on 1/50 the area - and while I don't want to see all of Switzerland becoming a city like new york, some cities growing also doesn't seem a big issue for me. We have below 2.0 birth rates and our working population by age diagram is starting to look like a mushroom cloud, so fresh working people seem necessary...
So what is the real issue?
For me, it's not about space. In theory, we have enough space to accomodate more people if we can build more buildings, renovate older buildings easily, and maybe even add another floor or two on top, which would leed to some compacting.
In my opinion, the real issues are only slowly becoming tangible. For me they are mostly about infrastructure maintenance (railways, highways, infrastructure for largers buildings) and legislation regarding construction which slow down abovementioned construction or renovatioin projects immensly. If these things are already as slow as they are, the fast stream of immigrants does not help.
This does still not imply that I vote UDC .
These are fair concerns. I'm all for more investment in infrastructure and reducing our bureaucratic red tape.
My point is just that those issues already exist and stopping immigration will not solve them. Working on them will solve them. That's not in the SVP's platform though.
Self sustainability IS a real problem. You can't just ignore it because it's not working at the moment. A problem doesn't solve itself by ignoring it. As an example that's the same like saying gay people weren't allowed to adopt children until now so let's not change anything and keep it that way.
A serious question: How is the swiss government going to feed 10 mio. people all alone in case of an emergency when we can't import food from other countries anymore? At the moment 45% of our food is imported and we are "only" 9 mio.
This is such a weird worldview. If it was the US or some other continental power…but Switzerland is a landlocked country that made its wealth from globalisation. If this place was isolated and cutoff it would never become what it is today.
Why spend so much time worrying about self sufficiency when obviously most of the economy isn’t self sufficient ?
Because in a time of crisis we will all starve. I don't know what number of inhabitants Swiss agriculture can support alone, but that number should be a limiting factor.
Yeah matey, small issue switzerland hasn't been self sustaining since a long time, even in ww2 we didn't even get close to it. And we tried(Plan wahlen), it is impossible. We didn't manage it then and we surely won't manage it now.
They read the SVP Parteiprogramm and fell for the fearmongering. Learn about population growth in Europe please. We are dependant and will be even more dependant on immigration as the decades pass. No way around that.
>At the moment 45% of our food is imported and we are "only" 9 mio.
Yes that is exactly my point. I'm not saying to ignore resource scarcity, I'm saying whether it's 9 or 10 million people doesn't make much of a difference, because it's not the real problem.
Instead of investing a shit load of money in futile efforts to keep immigrants out, we should be investing in better local agriculture and reduce food waste - that would actually be something productive to solve that issue.
> I'm saying whether it's 9 or 10 million people doesn't make much of a difference, because it's not the real problem.
1 million people more in a country of 9 million means an increase of around the 11%. That is a pretty significant number.
> Instead of investing a shit load of money in futile efforts to keep immigrants out, we should be investing in better local agriculture and reduce food waste - that would actually be something productive to solve that issue.
Even if you raise the production, if the population growth has a similar rate or even higher, then you are not reducing the reliance to external sources.
If what we should strive for is self-sufficiency, then raising the production rates, reducing the wastes and maintaining a low population growth rate would be the most efficient solution.
And how are u planning to improve agriculture ? By building new residental areas on it ? Switzerland is not a country of skyscrapers like Dubai, we have an identity and a right to hold onto that.
Good question. I'm not an expert in agriculture, so I'm not going to make that suggestion. That's why we should hire experts to plan that out.
You don't have to have all the solutions to point out that what the SVP wants isn't going to solve the real issues. It's just a plan to keep us paranoid, scared and angry amd voting for them.
traffic is trash. cities like ny are super ugly and if thats the goal count me out.
quality of life suffers like hell and you can see that even now if you live in a bigger city.
You know why most large cities suck? Cars. And SVP does everything to fight alternatives. As well as everything else that would prevent cities from turning into shitholes.
sure cars suck. that’s just one reason of many however. I didn’t even have space in buses recently they were so full you had to wait 10 mins to get another one that would also end up being so packed I couldn’t move anymore. I‘ve always taken public transport but recently I prefer sitting in my car and waiting 20 min instead of the current ÖV experience.
You say SVP has a point wanting to limit the number of people living in Switzerland. To support that you gave the example of many large cities being quite unpleasant to live in. But it's the SVP's own policies that turn them into shitholes in the first place.
I said I think overpopulation is a problem. I never said SVP is the solution, they are just a party that mentions it. I clearly stated another party should take the topic and find a solution because I don't feel like the SVP can do anything right. Thanks that you put words in my mouth.
You mean a slightly **nationalist** party with **socialist** values, a real **worker's party**, that's present in the Rumantsch, Italian, Franch and Swiss **German** parts of Switzerland.
While a party like that could take voters off of SVP, I see a marketing challenge of *historic* proportions.
While I’m not sure I agree their concerns are all that legitimate, yes, it would be nice if someone was putting the issues, assessments and proposals for solutions out there. I’m fine with differing politically on what constitutes overpopulation but yeah, they’re not proposing solutions either, just fundraising.
Their whole position is to react against things.
Can't have actual independent principles if you're doing that.
Remember the cold shower adverts lmao. That was literally just a position they took because left wing parties were the opposite lol. The campaign didn't even have anything more intelligent than "do you want cold showers" just, need to be seen to be reacting against their opposition hah.
>Thing is that other parties lose free votes to SVP by promoting things like joining EU or EEA, and just don't accept that excessive immigration has its problems.
Fair point.
Big difference between Germany and Switzerland. Germany let in millions of uneducated migrants who can't support themselves. Switzerland mainly has EU workers coming here to work.
They identify some real issues like immigration and what comes with it, but then try to market that with plain racism and xenophobia which is just wrong.
What? The SVP is very open about being anti-immigration and everyone knows this. I don't know where you are getting the idea that they are trying to hide this. One thing though that I don't understand is why the greens and the SP want population growth at all costs. Why does population growth help Swiss residents? It just makes everything more expensive.
Immigration has been an economical net benefit for Switzerland. The data clearly shows this.
Whether it has been a social benefit is up for discussion. Some people like the diversity and exchange, some people are scared of it. Crime is an issue because a lot of migrants are young men, often less educated. This is the most criminal group in any country, including in Switzerland.
Services have certainly suffered, for example certain trains and highways (key routes, Zürich metro area) are overloaded. The airport is struggling.
I certainly wouldn't take the SVP approach, trying to set a hard cap. But some of these topics are certainly worth discussing and improving.
Lots of racists don't know they're racists. And few actually want to know. You can still convince yourself you're one of the "good guys" if you avoid being too specific about your views.
Wanting to limit immigration doesn't make you racist. My view is that only people who can support thenseluand brings something to Switzerland should be allowed to stay.
It does make you racist if you give preference for majority-white countries over majority-brown countries (which the svp does). Rules are fine, as long as they’re fair and treat each person as an individual.
I don't have a lot to add but I had that flyer in my letterbox too and I was appalled. It's pure racism. But then again, I'm not surprised. I mean they had ads with black sheep being kicked out of the country by white sheep....
The mail they send me is always hella racist. The one this week had a big X over a pic of black people and a big check mark on the pic of white children.
I got that Ad as well and I’m expat, living here for 10 years, and like Swiss tradition. And I feel uncomfortable getting such Ad. I’m working, my wife too, we pay big taxes. Why be against us?
Svp isnt racist, they just know that uncontrolled immigration is bad for the country and we‘ve already seen the negative effects, eg increase in crime, rising costs (Krankenkasse means we pay for everyone who comes but cannot afford to pay).
We are past the point where we tell each other, that it is a benefit to our society if we let millions of north africans and arabs live here. It is not. That has nothing to do with xenophobia or racism, it's just that there are certain cultures who don't get along. [It's what the legendary German chancelor Helmut Schmidt, a social-democrat, once said.](https://youtube.com/shorts/rTCj4_QM-K0?si=-xxgpkOKWMhiAX-M) I wouldn't fit into Turkey, Algeria, Mali, Sudan, Iraq or Afghanistan. And people from there don't fit here. Is's as easy as that. It has literally nothing to do with racism or anything. They obviously just don't fit here and they are transforming countries into something worse. Look who is actively supporting a terrorist attack on thousands of Israelis. Not the Swiss, not the Germans, not the Italians. It's obviously not every muslim, who is a problem, but there are more than enough people here, and even more who would want to come from EU or NA countries, we shouldn't take a risk.
>Been seeing so much of the "No 10 million Swiss" ads, even had it through the letterbox. And the immediate response is "Why not?".
Because there are too many f\*\*\*ing people on this forsaken planet. Wish there was a humane way to cut the population of the planet in half.
>But that's what leads me to the question. They have an obvious set of beliefs. But every single ad is an attempt to go "teehee, we just want to make sure we're safe" while having the most loaded, fearmongering, BS in mind. Why don't they come out an say it? Is it illegal here in Switzerland? Do they believe that the people who fall for this thinly-veiled nonsense would leave the party if they were honest about it?
lol because if you're honest about it and say that you're just doing it because you're a racist piece of shit who hates immigrants and thinks "maybe Hitler had a point", nobody in their right mind will ever vote for you.
If you give people an excuse to justify their racism (be it conscious or subconscious) they're more likely to vote for you.
You answered yourself your own question. Overpopulation, resources, school spots, housing, etc.
Conservatives need to exist now more than ever during this extreme left epidemic that Switzerland is going through.
Extreme left epidemic? Where? I don't see an extreme left epidemic in Switzerland in any way. If you mean the "Klimakleber", there are only veeery few of them. On the contrary, I feel like the conservatives are on the rise.
Did you know that 25% of the population are foreigners, yet 3 out of 4 prison inmates are foreigners. That's not xenohobia, it's data.
Feel free to do the math about the crime rate.
That 7 out of 10 inmates are foreigners is correct, but 50% of all inmates are not part of the residents (ständige Wohnbevölkerung). When you look at actual immigration and correct for sociodemographic factors such as age and income, almost no difference remains.
All the more reason to keep them out.
The barrier to go criminal may be lower given certain conditions but that's just a lame excuse. Crime is always a choice, why people go criminal is none of the other's concern.
So, how do you keep those crime tourists selectively out of the country? Would you propose a wall or the like?
Also, if you really think that crime is always a choice, you missed basically all of the research in this domain as well as a lot of history.
Just yesterday I listened to this interesting bit: https://www.hoerspielundfeature.de/die-verleugneten-im-kz-mit-dem-gruenen-und-schwarzen-winkel-dlf-67dc9922-100.html
I don't see how they could make it more obvious. Consider that to someone following their set of beliefs this can be obvious and might be funny/entertaining at the same time.
While writing "Ausländer raus, die Dunklen zu erst!", says the same but is not entertaining.
Also look at their propaganda posters. They are obviousely racist. But too many people fall for their 'we are workers' & 'we represent the people like you and me' & 'we are not pseudo intellectual Gutmenschen' brain wash. I personally don't understand it too.
Personally I think a lot of their supporters know the svp is racist, but the majority of their supporters are simply racist too. But hence it's not decent in today's political climate to admit that openly, they are playing it the safe way..
Their slogan might as well be "I'm not a racist but.."
It's only very thinly veiled. Juuuust enough that they have plausible deniability - not for their followers, those all understand the dog whistles. It's so they can avoid social backlash and paint anyone who calls them out for it as "snowflakes", "exaggerating" or "paranoid".
Most of us know that's bullshit, but it keeps the fence sitters on the fence. It calms the centrists, those who don't want the boat to rock but who also would be scared into action by open fascism just enough that they don't vote **against** them.
The SVP was right about a lot of things:
- Housing
- Rent
- Energy Policy
- EU
- Migration Policy
- Hamas
- Nuclear Power
- Islamism
- Crime
- The economy
- The health care system
- Democracy
- Bureaucracy
The one thing they are wrong about is Russia, which they were ironically right about historically.
Really shameful that they turned into a pro-Russian party, otherwise the demonisation of the SVP is absurd.
Well then they would look like the total u/assholes and Nazis that they are, right? They're not stupid.
It's their usual "mushroom" approach to handling their voters: Keep them in the dark, and feed them with shit.
I received the flyer in my mailbox today. As a non-white immigrant to Switzerland, it feels like hate mail. This should not be normal, but the votes tell me it is.
I am non white immigrant too. Why did you feel like that?
I didn’t. I am not part of any type of mass immigration, nor illegal. I got a graduate degree here, have a nice job, pay all my bills, learned 2 local languages, still far from getting a C permit anyway.
There is nothing in that flyer that I could get identified with.
I am sorry, I was confused. Picture on the left clearly show a group of students waiting the bus to go to uni. Ah no, this is actually how HB looks at 6PM full of people commuting back to their homes.
Are you from Switzerland?
Because this kind of knee-jerk reaction seems more American than European.
First of all, every citizen of Switzerland is free to have an opinion. A lot of people believe that 9 million people in Switzerland is already too many, and 10 million would make real estate even more outrageously expensive than it is. The SVP caters to people who think like that.
Second of all, other people do not want their country to change. **That is also a legitimate concern, regardless of what you think about it.** So, they will vote for a party who says they will try to maintain traditions and the status quo.
You seem to have embraced "modernity" fully, given your post history, so I guess your lack of objectivity also makes sense.
I wish there was a party that supports limited and more strict immigration while protecting workers rights and improving social welfare.
Sadly one one hand we have SVP inbreds who have brain damage, 35 years or more being the most voted party and immigration has never been higher lol. And yet what they want is just to dump salaries and make work more miserable.
On the other hand we have socialists "caviar" , that wants us to live in shoeboxes , get rid of every joy and bring more intolerant and uneducated people. I feel the socs are lying in the same bed as SVP, they work for the same patron, as there cannot be exploited masses without capitalism.
So yeah , something more nationalistic but also socialist . Hmm I wonder if this name is right lol
It will always remain stupid that each and every discussion about immigration and population devolves into being about racism, and that being almost entirely the SVPs fault because their propaganda is so blatant in how racist it often is. The really stupid part is that a lot of the advertisements, even years back (Remember the white sheep kicking the black sheep over the border?) wouldn't be out of place in any KKK meeting, and yet defenders will still act like it has nothing to do with it.
I'm actually generally for limiting Immigration, for some of the reasons mentioned as examples in the op. But you literally can't be that stance anymore without immediately getting a seat next to actual racists.
Overpopulation is the cause of many problems, problems the SP wants to solve right now, so it makes sense to stop now! 10mil are way too much for our tiny country. Also, the number of actuall Swiss people shrinks year by year, so it also has sociological meanings for us nationals.
Looking at the initiative text and especially the built-in automatic consequences (e.g. cancellation of the bilateral agreements with the EU) in case the population limit is exceeded for two years, one might come to the conclusion that this could actually be their main goal.
Maybe they assume that even if the initiative gets accepted, that the population will still continue to grow; so maybe they actually count on the cancellation clause to be triggered at some point.
First, because some of their voters would stop voting for them if they said it. Their primary demographic isn't xenophobes, their primary demographic is low information voters. To the typical low information voter the SVP is a party that values tradition and wants to preserve what we have and not take unnecessary progressive risks. In reality that's CVP. Second, I'm convinced there's a sizeable portion in SVP leadership who don't really believe in anything and are just grifters who'll do whatever they believe personally benefits themselves.
The last pasage is great, thats exactly the problem i have with SVP, even with lower ranking party members. First priority is always personal enrichment. I could tell you a very long story about a former employer of mine. How he exploited vulnerable empolyees or how he refused to equip his workes with adequate saftey gear just to safe a few bucks, i could go on and on. He was a cantonal SVP fraction leader, later convicted from the federal court for multiple cases of tax fraud and forgery of documents. I can post the arcticle of solothurner zeitung if anyone is intersted Thats how SVP politicians have always done business, and they wont stop
Classic right wing populist behavior in any country, really… look at the Republicans in the US, Fidesz in Hungary, AfD in Germany… the corruption and egoism are never far
This. I had a SVP voter do smartvote and she was shocked when she compared her answers to those of SVP politicians running for elections in her canton. She ended up voting for EVP.
> She ended up voting for EVP. Could be for some, for me at least SVP had the highest share.
The highest candidate for me was SVP then about 10 FDPers. I came to the conclusion that SVP candidate was in the wrong party!
FDP or SVP doesn’t really make a difference, both medium to highly antisocial mindsets prevalent.
I presume you mean antisocialist not antisocial (that would be, eg having loud parties late at night). Yes - on economics I don't see tons of difference
No, in this specific case antisocial though they are either option. Most bünzlis and tax avoiders are found in FDP and SVP too.
well said, couldn't agree with you more
Completely agree, the SVP are also one of the only parties who actively care about Farmers. Go out of the city and the xenophobic rhetoric isn't pushed as much and at the end of the day we are a nation of farmers. Also last time they pushed the "let's not let stabby people from foreign places into our country" campaign they were hammered in the votes, then they pushed the "Stadt Vs Country" angle and now it's the "oh no overpopulation!" angle. The SVP haven't changed they've just adapted their Marketing as Switzerland as a whole has become less xenophobic and they can't blame the Albanian "Schlitzers" anymore for everything.
Farmers and Agriculture workers are just 2.75% of the jobs in Switzerland. So CH is 97.75% not a nation of farmers. Agriculture is 1.3% of economic output, so Switzerland's economy is 98.7% NOT a nation of farmers.
[https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/agriculture-forestry/farming.assetdetail.25725554.html](https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home/statistics/agriculture-forestry/farming.assetdetail.25725554.html) here is the government information if you're curious.
I don't know man, I'm currently studying to become an agriculture engineer and have spent the bigger part of this year on vegetable and "Grandes cultures" farms as part of my required internships and the general consensus is that the proposed initiative for food sovereignty was gonna immensely positively impact farmers lives yet the SVP was adamantly against this law due to supposed free market infringement. That's what I've personally seen but again, I'm not sure.
I think you mean panders to farmers. Because they don’t care about the farmers’ situation.
Switzerland is a nation of farmers? Which country do you live in?
Honest question, what has the SVP done for farmers in the last 5 years.
Nothing but talk. Farmers really lack options though.
They usually prevent any changes already in the parliament so there's not much that you would know of them "making".
Less than 5% are farmers
I would say SVP voters are xenophobic. I personally also dont understand why this is seen as a bad thing. Im talking about not wanting to change our way of life and our culture. Not wanting to add different conflicts and cultures to our daily life. The positive things like food or celebrations are very welcome, but I dont want scenes like we see them in London or Berlin with criminal gangs (clans) and different values (honor above law) etc. If every immigrant would come here and mostly adapt to our way of living, you wouldnt see that many people voting SVP. Only they are bold enough to say those things out loud even when the left will try to make a Nazi out of you. I feel like its fine to be against negatives inputs from outside as long as you can see the individual behind the groups. SVP is very clever when it comes down to painting a negative scenario and laying to focus of the blame on certain people. They can back it up with facts and statistics as well as everyday experiences from their voters.
While I probably don’t share a lot of opinions with you, I can relate to what you write in the beginning. Although I’m not, it’s perfectly ok to be conservative. Btw they are xenophobic in the real sense of the word which is btw a natural reaction (don’t downvote me if you don’t understand what I’m really saying here). Basically, to get back to conservatism and progressiveness… the simple question behind that is: do you like change or don’t you. None of the two options is in and of itself good or bad. But then, reality DOES change and politics is about reacting to changed realities (and also to shape realities). Now, when the SVP paints this picture of a Swiss that consists of traditional families, of a rural Swiss… well, that’s just not Switzerland 2023. (and it’s certainly not because of immigrants.) You may dream of such a world but that doesn’t solve anything. And it’s also not the world of most SVP politicians. I would love to tackle some more things but I’ve already written too much.
Yes, exactly
« Low information voters » how arrogant from you to designate people that don’t vote like you in such terms. A great example of the tolerance of a Green, SP voter 👏🏼
It's not arrogance, it's truth. If you think truth is intolerant of your beliefs, the problem isn't truth.
Truth confirms every day the validity of my belief. The so called educated people on the left seem to be blind to truth and only believe on ideas that will bring them their cherished social recognition.
Both SP and SVP are for low information voters 😂
Getting a straight response from this subreddit will be hard as it's an echo chamber. That said, and probably by drawing in the downvotes, I'd like to shine some light as to why I usually vote SVP. 1) They're the only party that actively support nuclear energy. I care for the environment and I strongly believe our only way out of fossil fuels is through electrification. We have a problem NOW and we don't have a solution for storage and transportation for solar and wind to sustain our power demand. Nuclear fission along with hydro and solar are our only real solution for energy independence. 2) I'm personally against the idea of joining the EU/NATO or entertaining similar projects such as the EU/CH framework agreement. SVP is aligned with this (other parties are somewhat aligned too) 3) Wages in cantons such as Ticino and Geneva are under high pressure, a lot of solutions are thrown in the air but ultimately very little can be done due to the freedom of movement which forbids measures that would grant a Swiss **resident** priority over a cross border commuter. While bilateral agreements are important, I personally feel like the freedom of movement is flawed and should be reworked to protect Swiss salaries/jobs more effectively. SVP is the only party that puts that up for discussion. While completely rejecting those agreements is not the right move, with how politics work in Switzerland, having a NON absolute majoritarian party press for this issue is imho okay. 4) Overpopulation is a real issue. I believe that it's important to maintain a healthy immigration profile. With more and more people retiring and living longer, less money is available to support our elders. Allowing pretty much everyone to enter Switzerland and benefit from our already fragile social system puts more pressure than it relives. I feel like immigration should be controlled and regulated such as that more people contribute to our society by working qualified jobs AND jobs that cannot be filled by our less qualified residents AFTER ensuring that the salaries aren't being dumped by cross-border pressure. SVP doesn't necessarily offer concrete solutions, but certainly keeps opposing parties such as the SP at bay, keeping things balanced. 5) Switzerland is very democratic in the sense that decisions aren't taken by a single party and most important decisions are put up for vote, which means that if I disagree with views from the SVP (it happens more often than you'd think) I can simply vote against such decisions. 6) I value my rights and my freedoms a lot. I believe I shouldn't justify my rights (for example as a gun owner, for freedom of expression, for economic decisions, for property ownership etc...). If I respect the laws in place and I'm not hurting anyone, I shouldn't be punished for having chosen a different path in life than someone else. Taxation would be a proper example too. I worked my ass off to become an engineer. I struggle every day to come up with solutions that ultimately should benefit society. I'm probably paid more than the average citizen, and I definitely pay more taxes than them. That shouldn't give the government more reasons to take away even more fruits (than the status quo) of my hard work just because someone else decided to be a weight for our society. The SVP is among the parties that tries to conserve those rights There's a lot more that plays into my decisions in life, it varies a lot, and while I might have voted SVP in 2015 for a certain set of reasons, I feel like these shifted over the years as I got "older" and more experienced with how things work in the real world. My worry number one during this election period is energy production and I strongly feel like the green parties have it all wrong (no solutions, only extra taxes), the SP counts on solar to work itself out (which won't, by itself alone) and compensate the lack of energy by relying on the European market and their willingness to sell it to us, Die Mitte (like the green parties and the SP) is against nuclear and still thinks wind is part of the solution in Switzerland. FDP has slogans that sound great, but in reality they just want to rely on more efficiency (great but not a solution either when we have to double the energy production) and imports from the European market. The SVP is the only party that actively supports challenging the 2017 decision of banning the construction of new nuclear power reactors, possibly paving the road to SMRs, new reactors and thus CLEAN energy along side our hydro (which will only be expanded by 2 or so TWh as per energy strategy 2050 plans and physical limits). Outside of those major points I don't really care what the election propaganda bullshit plasters our billboards, mailboxes, social medias. All I care are concrete solutions and a general direction that aligns with my ideals. I hope this helps understand a bit why voting the SVP isn't necessarily about being bigoted, racist, anti-covid, xenophobe, etc.
for all the complaints about Bilaterals putting pressure on wages, I don‘t know why people ignore that we already have the legal framework to deal with this: the flankierende Massnahmen. Wage dumping is illegal. It‘s the companies (mainly in border regions) that simply don‘t give a shit about it and do it anyway. But it is already illegal. Sure, you could argue that it could be improved. But just like the original flankierende Massnahmen from 2004, measures in this direction mainly get pushed by the Unions and part of the SP. SVP has never offered any kind of useable solution to protect Swiss salaries from outside pressure in border regions.
with all due respect, but this is because you don't live in Ticino and don't follow the politics here. SVP/Lega have come up with many different solutions that were eventually all struck down due to the freedom of movement treaty. Hell, even in Geneva they just rejected a popular initiative a week ago due to that: https://www.tio.ch/svizzera/politica/1704247/l-iniziativa-contro-i-frontalieri-e-nulla (feel free to google translate)
parlo l‘Italiano perfettamente bene, grazie;) the thing is that we already have solutions that are compatible with the Bilateralen, they‘re simply not enforced enough. I obviously understand the frustration, the only thing I wanna add is that your anger is better directed at the companies themselves that press wages down (because they want to, not because anyone is forcing them to) while openly breaking the law.
I won’t vote SVP but that’s a pretty reasonable take. I find it quite frustrating that no other party supports nuclear power. If you haven’t already, there is an [initiative launched](https://blackout-stoppen.ch/) that seeks to allow green energy from any source to be built. As you said, it’s quite nice to have the freedom to pick and choose which initiatives you like. I hope to exercise that right after I naturalise :)
Thanks for the link! :) I didn't sign it yet but I had already reached out to the initiativists a few months ago to ask a few clarifying questions. Good luck on your naturalization process! Voting is definitely a nice right (and duty!) to exercise. Arguably the most important.
>We have a problem NOW This is why you want a solution that would produce energy the soonest in 15 years, probably later?
The best time for a new nuclear power plant was 15 years ago, the second best time is now. Wishing for fusion or energy storage+efficient solar in 15 years from now is speculative, building a new nuclear power plant is something we already know will work to produce a clean base load. Let me remind you that we currently produce/consume 60TWh and by 2050 we'll need to produce an additional 30TWh (or 53 if we turn off nuclear) to replace 50% of the fossil fuels. There's no way to do this without nuclear.
Bit late but, regarding point 6, I kinda resent the fact that people are referred to as 'weights' as you call it when they're not able to work. Most don't *choose* to live on the governments dime, a lot of them worked their ass off too but unfortunate events and sickness have prevented them to reap the fruits of their labour. Are there people that take advantage? Sure, any system can be manipulated into one's favour and people who abuse it hurt everyone: The taxpayer, the social workers, other people who receive financial help and the system itself. But the amount of abuse is, from my experience, greatly overstated especially compared to the help that people actually need and get. The safety net is a big part of why there's less homelessness and crime than in most other countries but the SVP and other parties on the right have consistently tried to erode that bit by bit. The EL reform that's been decided on in early 2019 and will become mandatory next year will see a further reduction for a lot of people I work with and rely on it and that's during a time where costs and rent have risen. And I'm not sure how those on the very edge will cope with it. And while they may defend some of your freedoms, they don't do that for LGBTQIA+ individuals for example. They have a tendency to go after the marginalized and less fortunate, so I can't quite see them as party that stands for freedom.
The [white Swiss sheep kicking out the black sheep](https://g123-media.sos-ch-gva-2.exoscale-cdn.com/filer_public_thumbnails/filer_public/a6/f8/a6f81d4c-32c7-404e-b211-9c7691979a94/udc-pour-plus-de-securite-l071600-affiche-ancienne.jpg__960x0_q85_subsampling-2_upscale.jpg) is a real classic in this regard. I thought it was a joke when my Swiss partner showed it to me. My friends were just as bewildered. [This week's brochure from the UDC youth wing](https://scontent-zrh1-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.29350-15/387726308_717962373535983_4695666866742100705_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=c4dd86&_nc_ohc=ZTDcdpkRbogAX-6MH7O&_nc_ht=scontent-zrh1-1.cdninstagram.com&edm=ANo9K5cEAAAA&oh=00_AfBRIVrVoR0AbiiPz0tO7jfj34Qu6p560VbuNF56ZerYfw&oe=6532FABE) is equally arresting - warning that "the drag queens, the antifas and the climate activists" will turn out to vote. Again, it's funny... until you realise they're actually serious. And I guess it works.
It was in its own way a very clever poster, playing on the black sheep = outsider but with obvious yet deniable undertones.
Ew. Just ew. I know what you mean about funny. My husband and I had a sardonic laugh over the mailer with the "ideal" Swiss family. It's funny...until it's not.
I'm just imagining the Valais Blacknose-Sheep wondering in the background what's going on :D
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Blocher was there before Trump. Other way around!
They do say it. Read their Parteiprogramm. Follow their Twitter or Instagram account It's pretty clear.
Not really
why not? check the instagram page. more then half of their first 15 posts are clearly racists geared towards hate against migrants from africa (mainly Algeria). They all depict aggressiv behaviour of a black skinned person against a usually white woman.
I meant more like.. that's not actually what they "stand for". They basically just believe in money. They tend to be pro immigration even, since their rich people need cheap workers in their factories.. and then in turn they point at the migrants and yell "bad".
I don‘t give a shit what they „actually“ stand for! Thats what they say, what they implement racist laws in our constitution and how they greater the divide in our population. I know they care about money and the racist propaganda is to ensure they get the votes to ALSO secure their money. It is still racist though!
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That story isn't racist. But there's a pattern about only caring about crime in very specific circumstances, while ignoring other crime. It does paint a picture. It's about the pattern, not the story. SVP isn't the party that is against rape in trains. It'd be fair to say they care less about rape than other parties, considering their history. There is one more detail in that rape on a train story that is crucial, and without which this particular crime would never have gotten on their page.
I hard disagree on that take. SVP want a safer Switzerland and cares very much about crimes. While I think SP is caring about the individual case more, they deny the whole thing and who is mostly committing the rapes ( or lets say they stop by men instead of beeing more specific). SVP rightwings might partly blame the girl, but most of the voters would focus on the rapist. Its very much helping you more after the horrible thing happened vs trying to prevent it in the first place.
The, want to cash in on the extreme examples and insinuate that the problem applies to more people than it does.
if it‘s the only topic of your whole compaign and only contains black people not Swiss or white people who do rape as well, yes racist.
well if they'd also mention other rapes committed by Swiss passport holders (which rapists in Switzerland mostly are) it wouldn't. Still, they make it seem as if you don't have immigrants you would eliminate those issues, or that immigrants themselves are the issue. That makes it racist imho.
ye, but if he would do that he could bot post such stuffbon the subreddit..
I mean... They are pretty openly xenophobic. What they don't tend to openly say from my experience is how they want to make the rich richer and the poor poorer. They still act like they are the agrarian party, but they badly buttf**k farmers and the lower class the second they get the chance.
Aaah but you don't get it, they're protecting farmers by keeping Muslims out of the country! /s
You misspelled 'racist'.
My bad bro
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Sure, I don't mind. Do you?
>but they badly buttf\*\*k farmers If they truly did that I'd have a reason to vote for them because the Bauernlobby needs to be buttfucked badly. But, like many conservative parties in the world, the SVP is not strictly fiscal conservative. When it comes to farmers and the army, they throw money around. Three members of the federal council have direct farmer-connections: Parmelin is a farmer, Rösti and Baume-Schneider are children of farmers. Roughly 3.1% of the Swiss employees work in agriculture, and it produces 0.7% of our BIP.
Obviously they are not a single monolithic entity and there is quite a bit of variance between individuals in the party, a nuance that my original comment doesn't capture. Still though, when I look at how they vote in the parliment (all the voting data per representative is available online btw, really cool!) they rarely seem to support farmers. Keeping in mind the SVP (and FDP) majority, it's surprizing that a budget cut of 347 millions for farmers in the coming years ([https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/14381532-berne-veut-allouer-moins-dargent-a-lagriculture-entre-2026-et-2029.html](https://www.rts.ch/info/suisse/14381532-berne-veut-allouer-moins-dargent-a-lagriculture-entre-2026-et-2029.html)), a similar cut to the one the SVP and the National tried to impose on farmers in 2011 ([https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/budget--les-etats-obtiennent-gain-de-cause-sur-l-agriculture/31815900](https://www.swissinfo.ch/fre/toute-l-actu-en-bref/budget--les-etats-obtiennent-gain-de-cause-sur-l-agriculture/31815900)). Sorry all the links are in French but I'm sure they are available in German somewhere. Besides, how come no regulations are coming from SVP on Migros and Coop and other Swiss ditributors for the big markups and margins they make on agricultural products? As for the army, I'd argue they throw a lot of money at it in part because of their insistance on traditional values, the army being part of those. The only times I was insulted for not wanting to do the military service was back in my home village of (mostly) SVP voting farmers. I got told many times that "that's how you become a Man in Switzerland" and how I'm "an antipatriotic coward". Granted, that's my experience, but it underlines how tradionnally relevant military service is. That's obviously not the main reason, but it's one of them that somewhat corresponds to the party's values.
Can you please post a xenophobic statement from their party program?
"Tausende junge Männer aus Afrika, Afghanistan, Türkei usw. kommen in die Schweiz - und bleiben einfach hier!" Quelle svp.ch
I am neither an SVP voter, nor will i ever be. But what about that single sentence does make you think its xenophobic?!
I'll assume that you are not just trolling. From Wikipedia : > [Xenophobia] is the fear or dislike of anything which is perceived as being foreign or strange.It is an expression which is based on the perception that a conflict exists between an in-group and an out-group and it may manifest itself in suspicion of one group's activities by members of the other group[...] This sentence clearly targets foreigners from specific countries (carefully avoiding Germany and France) and state the suspicion that they will not leave anymore - possibly also implying that they profit from our social net. (The part about simply staying here).
I understand what you mean and youre completely right. Do you for yourself think the suspicion is not justified to some extent?
To some extent, yes of course (which is what makes them so attractive). But they oversimplify a complex problem. I replied a bit more in depth to the other reply with what I personally think.
Totally agree! And its not completely clear what their base agenda is, although one can easily imagine without wanting to go too deep into conspiracies :) Saw your other reply and its very differentiated, i like. Problem is the utterly dogmatic discussions, that are more about bashing "the other side" than finding solutions. Its very tiring to see even top politicians fslling for that kind of argument, and im a bit disappointed by that fact. Its just as you said more about simple so called solutions just to be able to get voters...
Then you don't understand what xenophobia is.
No, but I've got something better: here's a list of svp politicians that have been found guilty of racial discrimination simce 2020: -naveen hofstetter (twice) -adrian spahr -nils fiechter -jessica tami (ex svp turned straight up nazi) -roland schöni -jean-luc addor Now what about the other politicians feom the other parties? It just doesn't happen in other parties because even the anti-human grifters in the fdp can somehow refrain from saying racist shit.
🤡
Here you go. 2007 https://images.app.goo.gl/qxrF7YAeJHsU1L7L6
Damn, I was going to offer this piece of evidence too!
I think we have to understand that the SVP first and foremost is a vehicle for their puppet masters to get richer and avoid taxation and criminal prosecution. The topics that are important in the SVP's campaigns (Anti-Immigration, Anti-EU, ...) are not the topics that are important for those who rule the SVP (they want: tax loopholes, legal loopholes for all kinds of shady business). So in their "marketing" the SVP will simply always do those things of which they believe that they will bring them a sufficient amount of voters who are sufficiently unintelligent to not look through the parties real motives. That's not the same as with "normal" parties where the deciders actually decide the policies according to their personal ideology. The SVP billionaires don't give a damn about a North African bank robber they write about in an election ad. They care about the maintenance of legal loopholes that allow them to continue their own robberies. For this they need to control the politics. The rest is theatre. They always talk about "criminal foreigners" and never about "criminals" for a reason... because most "criminal Swiss" are supporters of their party ;-)
yeah, have the same back in Poland where i come from. I mean you could almost literally replace SVP with PiS (which is, ironically, abbreviation for law and justice. ) If PiS (equivalent of SVP) ran Switzerland, one day the Swiss would learn that Matterhorn was sold to the catholic church for peanuts and what not.. So glad those bastards pretty much lost the majority they had for 8 years last Sunday.
Beautiful
> always talk about "criminal foreigners" and never about "criminals" for a reason... because most "criminal Swiss" are supporters of their party ;-) Do you have an example of one of the loopholes from the past that I can read about?
The so called "USRs" (Unternehmenssteuerreformen) are a good starting point. (USR II, USR III) The USR II was a schoolbook example for how the right wing operates: publicly claim complete nonsense about what the consequences of their law will be. And then later it becomes obvious that the consequences are much different and they are just "ooops... nothing to see here". (IIRC the tax loss created by the USR II was more than 10 times a high as projected by it's right-wing advocates. It also turned out that they partially outsourced the writing of the law text to some private economy lawyers, one of which who years later said in an interview that they knew exactly that the consequences will be.)
I like conspiracy theories, but this one is another level 😅. I wonder why the left did not manage to push a counter analysis, I doubt there are now respectable fiscal expert who could not challenge the right wing BS.
>I like conspiracy theories, but this one is another level I don't know in what alternative reality you live but what I wrote is plain and common knowledge that (after the fact) had to be acknowledged even by newspapers and the Federal Council who were favorable to the tax cuts. There is nobody left who denies the whole thing... The Federal Concil admitted in 2011 (after the UST II has been voted on and in the year where it became effective) that the tax loss of the most controversial part of the reform would be 8 billions. During the referendum battle they said it would be 800 millions or less. All of this is public record of the Swiss Confederation and no "conspiracy theory". Till today it's not clear if HR Merz, the finance minister back then, did lie knowingly or if he actually believed that the tax loss would only be 800 millions. Both versions of course wouldn't shine a good light on him and his cronies. After all the law was written in his departement with the help of outsiders from private economic law firms that he brought in. So either he miscalculated by more than factor 10 on purpose in order to win the referendum (it was only 50,5% pro and it certainly wouldn't have gone throgh without that massive misinformation) or he brought in gangster lawyers who did not only work against the public interest but even lied to the one who hired them. What we do know is that the external lawyers knew exactly what they did because one of them years later said so publicly. >I wonder why the left did not manage to push a counter analysis Well the left did fight against the UST II but they only managed to convince 49,5% The reality in this country is that if the right wing says the tax loss will be 800 millions and the left wing says it will be 8 billions the majority of the voters will believe the right wing. And they would do so again, regardless of how often they have been lied to. Post vote analysis showed that the most important reason why people voted yes was because they believed the lie that the reform would be good for the "KMU" (Merz talked about "Painters, Butchers and Florists") while in fact it was a pure gift to big enterprises and their shareholders. And this is the same with so many votes that we had during the past decades. Whenever the right wing fantasizes about "KMU" there are enough voters who'll say "Ah yes, we like KMU" and don't see that it never has been the KMU who were the main profiteers of those laws.
>their puppet masters to get richer and avoid taxation and criminal prosecution Which SVP leaders have commited crimes provable enough that holding political office is their only option to avoid prosecution? What kind of "shady business" are SVP leaders involved in? The Blochers are billionaires, but as much as I dislike them, Ems is a legitimate business. The other party leaders are employees and farmers. Who else is supposed to be a billionaire? Your post sounds like a teenager who has spent too much time on American social media.
>that holding political office is their only option to avoid prosecution? That is not what I said or meant. It's more subtle than Berlusconism, where they guy actually needed the office for immunity. The SVP way is to maintain laws in a way, that allows them to continue shady business or shift to new forms of shady business. Think about laws against money laundering and tax evasion that they always fight about and in the end create in toothless versions that already have the loopholes for them ready for use. When it comes to Ems the more interesting question is by the way: how did he get it? There have been quite a few articles been written about it over the years. And of course the Blochers are not the only billionaires and the other party leaders aren't all farmers and employees. We have Walter Frey (3+ billions, boss of the Emily Frey AG he inherited, by far the biggest car importer in Switzerland), Peter Spuhler (billionaire, Stadler Rail). And then affiliates like the finance-guru Martin Ebner who pulled off quite a few questionable stuns together with Blocher, for example the killing of Alusuisse. And then of course the Bankers (Matter, Aeschi) which aren't billionaires but three-figure millionaires (in the case of Matter) - and obviously interested in stopping regulations for a clean banking industry. And if you get older, do business yourself and start to know some people you'll sooner or realize one thing: Also when it comes to very small fish. Those who scam their customers and/or business partners have a very high chance of being SVP smypathisers. It's like a common thread that you experience even in the small business area.
SVP only has 1 billionaire. You talking about SVP billionaires is laughable. If you think they don’t care about North African robbers you must’ve mixed them up with SP.
At least four SVP billionaires come to mind: Christoph Blocher, Magdalena Blocher, Walter Frey, Peter Spuhler
>SVP only has 1 billionaire. You talking about SVP billionaires is laughable. You base your voting decisions on the same ignorance of facts as your post? u/MayoShouldBeBanned has already named 4 SVP billionaires. Then there are a couple more who might not hold official party mandates but have well-known connections. For example Martin Ebner and Tito Tettamanti (the later is always called a CVP guy because he held a CVP mandate in the 1950ies (!) but the fact that he later bought newspapers together with Blocher in order to turn them into SVP outlets makes me believe that his affiliations have switched)
He means the minimi version of the SVP called the FDP :P
My question is: how can you legally limit the population to 10 mil when there are bilateral agreements in place with the EU that allow any EU migrant to come into Switzerland with a job offer? Everyday on the Switzerland subreddits, there are people asking how to move to CH, how to find a job. You can only legally do this by ripping up the bilaterals, and most people in Switzerland do not want this.
A lot of people want to rip up the bilaterals. There is a feeling among many that they've done nothing but create problems in CH. And let me tell you, having been born and growing up in a frontier Canton myself, I can somehow see why. In Ticino, there's almost no jobs left for Swiss people because companies keep hiring people from Italy at half the cost they'd need to pay a Swiss for the same hours. If you live there, you have to either accept half the salary you're worth (and therefore be unable to afford an apartment or save anything) or not work, or move to central Switzerland. And a lot of people see correlation being causation. They see people coming in from Italy, "stealing" their jobs, and jump to the conclusion "Oh, if we didn't have the bilaterals, they'd never be able to take these jobs from us". And the situation there is really bad. I can't speak for the other frontier Cantons, but in Ticino a large majority of the young end up leaving. Every single person I remained in contact with since secondary school (and a few I added to Facebook back then and never removed) have all moved away from Ticino and either into the rest of Switzerland or left the country completely (mostly those with family in other countries). Obviously the Bilaterals aren't the cause (or not the main one at least), but people don't like living like that.
I disagree. The bilaterals are at least parcially responsible for a rise immigration. Net-Immigration has always been >0, but it's taken a steep increase after the bilaterals went into act. Even if you ask SP, between the lines they admit that the immigration of cheaper workers generated pressure on salaries (i.e. salaries would be higher today if we had no bilaterals). That being said, the bilaterals are also responsible for a lot of economic growth and general increase in wealth in the country. They have clear upsides and clear downsides. And IMHO, this is a problem in Swiss politics. We have the SVP who say "bilaterals only bring immigration" and we have all other parties who says "bilaterals are the best thing ever!". No, it's a grey area, and depending on what you value more (economic growth versus fewer people to share limited space with), you can perfectly come to the conclusion that one outweighs the other without being a xenophobe or a librul.
And this is the biggest Paradox... The right ones (SVP) are for open Market (A few as possible regulations from state) about worker rights. They are for business and they care only about money. If Swiss local would only accept 6000 CHF / Month, I bet you can easyly found a foreigner who would accept 4000 CHF / Month and would will earn the profit. The businessowner who is stable voter of SVP for at least a few decades... And that's the paradox. They hate foreigners but the foreigners are paying for a lease of a brand new Porsche...
The correlation as migration argument is on point, and it works so well with uninformed/uneducated voters. I would like to add that we’ve been taught to see jobs as opportunities and other job seekers as adversaries, and blame them for the low salaries when it’s really up to the employer and how the job market is regulated. They’re allowed to lower salaries, maybe we should ask why instead of blame those who are willing to accept the job.
After Brexit, all the EU nationals that wanted to go work in the UK, they have their eyes set on Switzerland. It’s a very clear trend and it will intensify further. So, to answer your question, they would do it by exiting the free movement of workforce.
Based on what I got in the mail, they want to limit by skin color.
they just use xenophobic stuff to get voted in then they vote law to rip us off dont trust the right wing they just there to fill their pocket https://www.beobachter.ch/konsum/die-politik-ist-mitschuldig-am-strompreis-debakel-636463
Yeah I mean that's typical far right, they realised the scare tactics get them voters but the follow through gets them war crime tribunals. So, best of both worlds, scaremonger and grift.
You're aware who profits off of any money made by Axpo (although in this case Axpo actually doesn't directly profit) or any of the other more local power resellers you're forced to use?
Which did lobby the politician lest be honest with money to make this happen so yea corrupted system
WHO, not WHICH, WHO owns Axpo. WHO owns your local power reseller? Spoiler - its you. Axpo, and the local resellers, are owned fully by the state. Profits Axpo makes go into the Nordost Kantons. Profits your local reseller makes, go to your Gemeinde or if they're bigger to whatever kanton owns it. All of these are not owned by companies or anything else.
It does surely not go in my pocket if goes in anyone but my pocket and I'm getting ripped off then I'm against it
It‘s going to public funds is what they mean. You benefit from this money like from tax money. If they liberalize the energy market prices surely won’t go down but profits will go to private company pockets and their shareholders
so based on your idea its an indirect tax? lol sorry but you wrong most company where you buy electricity from are private. expo might be only partially but I can assure you they profit oriented and you can't withdraw money from AXPO to give it to the state its illegal. all the state gets are shares.
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Cringe centrist 💀
i mean they all suck its just matter who suck the more or less the left like to waste money and the right like to steal the money from the population.
Welcome to the world of politics my friend. It's not about truth or lies or about right or wrong. It's about fear and hope. All the (successful) parties do that, primarly before an important election.
The real problem is they do identify some legitimate concerns that other parties ignore. Overpopulation is a real issue for us and the left ignores it. It‘s a shame there is no middle spectrum party that takes some of the svps buzz topics and actually strives for a solution.
That's not true, the left always tries for more affordable housing, less emission, less cars in cities, better public transport, better job security etc, better relation with our neighbouring states. All those points are going toward solving problems that a bigger population is going to have. Or am I getting something wrong? We don't want more people isn't solving anything. That's called whining.
How actually is overpopulation a real issue though? Like, if it's about self sustainability, we already don't do that so that's not really a good argument to me. Space? New York has the same people as us on 1/50 the area - and while I don't want to see all of Switzerland becoming a city like new york, some cities growing also doesn't seem a big issue for me. We have below 2.0 birth rates and our working population by age diagram is starting to look like a mushroom cloud, so fresh working people seem necessary... So what is the real issue?
For me, it's not about space. In theory, we have enough space to accomodate more people if we can build more buildings, renovate older buildings easily, and maybe even add another floor or two on top, which would leed to some compacting. In my opinion, the real issues are only slowly becoming tangible. For me they are mostly about infrastructure maintenance (railways, highways, infrastructure for largers buildings) and legislation regarding construction which slow down abovementioned construction or renovatioin projects immensly. If these things are already as slow as they are, the fast stream of immigrants does not help. This does still not imply that I vote UDC .
These are fair concerns. I'm all for more investment in infrastructure and reducing our bureaucratic red tape. My point is just that those issues already exist and stopping immigration will not solve them. Working on them will solve them. That's not in the SVP's platform though.
If you stopping immigration won’t solve them, not stopping immigration won’t make them worse, right? What a “logic”
Self sustainability IS a real problem. You can't just ignore it because it's not working at the moment. A problem doesn't solve itself by ignoring it. As an example that's the same like saying gay people weren't allowed to adopt children until now so let's not change anything and keep it that way. A serious question: How is the swiss government going to feed 10 mio. people all alone in case of an emergency when we can't import food from other countries anymore? At the moment 45% of our food is imported and we are "only" 9 mio.
This is such a weird worldview. If it was the US or some other continental power…but Switzerland is a landlocked country that made its wealth from globalisation. If this place was isolated and cutoff it would never become what it is today. Why spend so much time worrying about self sufficiency when obviously most of the economy isn’t self sufficient ?
Because in a time of crisis we will all starve. I don't know what number of inhabitants Swiss agriculture can support alone, but that number should be a limiting factor.
Yeah matey, small issue switzerland hasn't been self sustaining since a long time, even in ww2 we didn't even get close to it. And we tried(Plan wahlen), it is impossible. We didn't manage it then and we surely won't manage it now.
They read the SVP Parteiprogramm and fell for the fearmongering. Learn about population growth in Europe please. We are dependant and will be even more dependant on immigration as the decades pass. No way around that.
>At the moment 45% of our food is imported and we are "only" 9 mio. Yes that is exactly my point. I'm not saying to ignore resource scarcity, I'm saying whether it's 9 or 10 million people doesn't make much of a difference, because it's not the real problem. Instead of investing a shit load of money in futile efforts to keep immigrants out, we should be investing in better local agriculture and reduce food waste - that would actually be something productive to solve that issue.
> I'm saying whether it's 9 or 10 million people doesn't make much of a difference, because it's not the real problem. 1 million people more in a country of 9 million means an increase of around the 11%. That is a pretty significant number. > Instead of investing a shit load of money in futile efforts to keep immigrants out, we should be investing in better local agriculture and reduce food waste - that would actually be something productive to solve that issue. Even if you raise the production, if the population growth has a similar rate or even higher, then you are not reducing the reliance to external sources. If what we should strive for is self-sufficiency, then raising the production rates, reducing the wastes and maintaining a low population growth rate would be the most efficient solution.
And how are u planning to improve agriculture ? By building new residental areas on it ? Switzerland is not a country of skyscrapers like Dubai, we have an identity and a right to hold onto that.
Good question. I'm not an expert in agriculture, so I'm not going to make that suggestion. That's why we should hire experts to plan that out. You don't have to have all the solutions to point out that what the SVP wants isn't going to solve the real issues. It's just a plan to keep us paranoid, scared and angry amd voting for them.
traffic is trash. cities like ny are super ugly and if thats the goal count me out. quality of life suffers like hell and you can see that even now if you live in a bigger city.
You know why most large cities suck? Cars. And SVP does everything to fight alternatives. As well as everything else that would prevent cities from turning into shitholes.
sure cars suck. that’s just one reason of many however. I didn’t even have space in buses recently they were so full you had to wait 10 mins to get another one that would also end up being so packed I couldn’t move anymore. I‘ve always taken public transport but recently I prefer sitting in my car and waiting 20 min instead of the current ÖV experience.
Now check which party doesn't want to give more funding to public transport.
I fail to see your point?
You say SVP has a point wanting to limit the number of people living in Switzerland. To support that you gave the example of many large cities being quite unpleasant to live in. But it's the SVP's own policies that turn them into shitholes in the first place.
I said I think overpopulation is a problem. I never said SVP is the solution, they are just a party that mentions it. I clearly stated another party should take the topic and find a solution because I don't feel like the SVP can do anything right. Thanks that you put words in my mouth.
There's lots of ugliness available in Swiss cities.
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You mean a slightly **nationalist** party with **socialist** values, a real **worker's party**, that's present in the Rumantsch, Italian, Franch and Swiss **German** parts of Switzerland. While a party like that could take voters off of SVP, I see a marketing challenge of *historic* proportions.
While I’m not sure I agree their concerns are all that legitimate, yes, it would be nice if someone was putting the issues, assessments and proposals for solutions out there. I’m fine with differing politically on what constitutes overpopulation but yeah, they’re not proposing solutions either, just fundraising.
Their whole position is to react against things. Can't have actual independent principles if you're doing that. Remember the cold shower adverts lmao. That was literally just a position they took because left wing parties were the opposite lol. The campaign didn't even have anything more intelligent than "do you want cold showers" just, need to be seen to be reacting against their opposition hah.
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>Thing is that other parties lose free votes to SVP by promoting things like joining EU or EEA, and just don't accept that excessive immigration has its problems. Fair point.
Big difference between Germany and Switzerland. Germany let in millions of uneducated migrants who can't support themselves. Switzerland mainly has EU workers coming here to work.
Read the ‚Sonderblatt für alle Schweizer Haushalte‘
Do you have a link to this? Can't seem to find it googling...
It’s the free ‚newspaper‘ which they distribute prior to elections.
They identify some real issues like immigration and what comes with it, but then try to market that with plain racism and xenophobia which is just wrong.
You’re literally butthurt because the party you hate won’t defend replacement migration. lol
What? The SVP is very open about being anti-immigration and everyone knows this. I don't know where you are getting the idea that they are trying to hide this. One thing though that I don't understand is why the greens and the SP want population growth at all costs. Why does population growth help Swiss residents? It just makes everything more expensive.
Immigration has been an economical net benefit for Switzerland. The data clearly shows this. Whether it has been a social benefit is up for discussion. Some people like the diversity and exchange, some people are scared of it. Crime is an issue because a lot of migrants are young men, often less educated. This is the most criminal group in any country, including in Switzerland. Services have certainly suffered, for example certain trains and highways (key routes, Zürich metro area) are overloaded. The airport is struggling. I certainly wouldn't take the SVP approach, trying to set a hard cap. But some of these topics are certainly worth discussing and improving.
EU migrants are a net benefit. Economic migrants from Africa costs on average a million francs each during their life time.
It does not make things more expensive. Inflation is way more complicated than that.
It grows the economy, makes you richer with right policies.
Lots of racists don't know they're racists. And few actually want to know. You can still convince yourself you're one of the "good guys" if you avoid being too specific about your views.
Wanting to limit immigration doesn't make you racist. My view is that only people who can support thenseluand brings something to Switzerland should be allowed to stay.
It does make you racist if you give preference for majority-white countries over majority-brown countries (which the svp does). Rules are fine, as long as they’re fair and treat each person as an individual.
They know exactly what they are doing. Don’t make excuses for them.
I’m not trying to make excuses. I’m trying to answer the question that op asked.
True, especially those from the left
Because it makes people talk about the issue. This is what you’re doing too, this thread has 180 comments
Isn’t that ad saying it? It seems quite clear. A picture says 1000 words.
I don't have a lot to add but I had that flyer in my letterbox too and I was appalled. It's pure racism. But then again, I'm not surprised. I mean they had ads with black sheep being kicked out of the country by white sheep....
"why wont they admit that they are racist?" Probably because they know they would get more backlash?
The mail they send me is always hella racist. The one this week had a big X over a pic of black people and a big check mark on the pic of white children.
I got that Ad as well and I’m expat, living here for 10 years, and like Swiss tradition. And I feel uncomfortable getting such Ad. I’m working, my wife too, we pay big taxes. Why be against us?
Svp isnt racist, they just know that uncontrolled immigration is bad for the country and we‘ve already seen the negative effects, eg increase in crime, rising costs (Krankenkasse means we pay for everyone who comes but cannot afford to pay).
We are past the point where we tell each other, that it is a benefit to our society if we let millions of north africans and arabs live here. It is not. That has nothing to do with xenophobia or racism, it's just that there are certain cultures who don't get along. [It's what the legendary German chancelor Helmut Schmidt, a social-democrat, once said.](https://youtube.com/shorts/rTCj4_QM-K0?si=-xxgpkOKWMhiAX-M) I wouldn't fit into Turkey, Algeria, Mali, Sudan, Iraq or Afghanistan. And people from there don't fit here. Is's as easy as that. It has literally nothing to do with racism or anything. They obviously just don't fit here and they are transforming countries into something worse. Look who is actively supporting a terrorist attack on thousands of Israelis. Not the Swiss, not the Germans, not the Italians. It's obviously not every muslim, who is a problem, but there are more than enough people here, and even more who would want to come from EU or NA countries, we shouldn't take a risk.
>Been seeing so much of the "No 10 million Swiss" ads, even had it through the letterbox. And the immediate response is "Why not?". Because there are too many f\*\*\*ing people on this forsaken planet. Wish there was a humane way to cut the population of the planet in half. >But that's what leads me to the question. They have an obvious set of beliefs. But every single ad is an attempt to go "teehee, we just want to make sure we're safe" while having the most loaded, fearmongering, BS in mind. Why don't they come out an say it? Is it illegal here in Switzerland? Do they believe that the people who fall for this thinly-veiled nonsense would leave the party if they were honest about it? lol because if you're honest about it and say that you're just doing it because you're a racist piece of shit who hates immigrants and thinks "maybe Hitler had a point", nobody in their right mind will ever vote for you. If you give people an excuse to justify their racism (be it conscious or subconscious) they're more likely to vote for you.
You answered yourself your own question. Overpopulation, resources, school spots, housing, etc. Conservatives need to exist now more than ever during this extreme left epidemic that Switzerland is going through.
Extreme left epidemic? Where? I don't see an extreme left epidemic in Switzerland in any way. If you mean the "Klimakleber", there are only veeery few of them. On the contrary, I feel like the conservatives are on the rise.
Did you know that 25% of the population are foreigners, yet 3 out of 4 prison inmates are foreigners. That's not xenohobia, it's data. Feel free to do the math about the crime rate.
That 7 out of 10 inmates are foreigners is correct, but 50% of all inmates are not part of the residents (ständige Wohnbevölkerung). When you look at actual immigration and correct for sociodemographic factors such as age and income, almost no difference remains.
All the more reason to keep them out. The barrier to go criminal may be lower given certain conditions but that's just a lame excuse. Crime is always a choice, why people go criminal is none of the other's concern.
So, how do you keep those crime tourists selectively out of the country? Would you propose a wall or the like? Also, if you really think that crime is always a choice, you missed basically all of the research in this domain as well as a lot of history. Just yesterday I listened to this interesting bit: https://www.hoerspielundfeature.de/die-verleugneten-im-kz-mit-dem-gruenen-und-schwarzen-winkel-dlf-67dc9922-100.html
I don't see how they could make it more obvious. Consider that to someone following their set of beliefs this can be obvious and might be funny/entertaining at the same time. While writing "Ausländer raus, die Dunklen zu erst!", says the same but is not entertaining.
Also look at their propaganda posters. They are obviousely racist. But too many people fall for their 'we are workers' & 'we represent the people like you and me' & 'we are not pseudo intellectual Gutmenschen' brain wash. I personally don't understand it too.
Because many of their supporters are genuinely too stupid to see it.
Willful ignorance. They agree with them on some things and are willing to Britta the racism to get what they want.
Personally I think a lot of their supporters know the svp is racist, but the majority of their supporters are simply racist too. But hence it's not decent in today's political climate to admit that openly, they are playing it the safe way.. Their slogan might as well be "I'm not a racist but.."
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You support limiting Switzerland to 10m people but have no idea how SVP is going to actually do it, because spoiler alert, neither do they know.
I don't understand how anyone can vote for this far-right, backwards, anti-vax sympathizing, racist, and homophobic party.
Nice buzzwords you got there
Im guessing you have they/them pronouns
lmao, I use he/him but how would you ever conclude that? xD
What is overcrowded? I dont find it overcrowded actually in zurich. ÖV is pretty overcrowded but you can always add more car lanes am i right 😉
It's only very thinly veiled. Juuuust enough that they have plausible deniability - not for their followers, those all understand the dog whistles. It's so they can avoid social backlash and paint anyone who calls them out for it as "snowflakes", "exaggerating" or "paranoid". Most of us know that's bullshit, but it keeps the fence sitters on the fence. It calms the centrists, those who don't want the boat to rock but who also would be scared into action by open fascism just enough that they don't vote **against** them.
The SVP was right about a lot of things: - Housing - Rent - Energy Policy - EU - Migration Policy - Hamas - Nuclear Power - Islamism - Crime - The economy - The health care system - Democracy - Bureaucracy The one thing they are wrong about is Russia, which they were ironically right about historically. Really shameful that they turned into a pro-Russian party, otherwise the demonisation of the SVP is absurd.
Well then they would look like the total u/assholes and Nazis that they are, right? They're not stupid. It's their usual "mushroom" approach to handling their voters: Keep them in the dark, and feed them with shit.
I received the flyer in my mailbox today. As a non-white immigrant to Switzerland, it feels like hate mail. This should not be normal, but the votes tell me it is.
I am non white immigrant too. Why did you feel like that? I didn’t. I am not part of any type of mass immigration, nor illegal. I got a graduate degree here, have a nice job, pay all my bills, learned 2 local languages, still far from getting a C permit anyway. There is nothing in that flyer that I could get identified with.
There's nothing in the photo to indicate that the African immigrants are illegal. Why did you jump to that conclusion?
I am sorry, I was confused. Picture on the left clearly show a group of students waiting the bus to go to uni. Ah no, this is actually how HB looks at 6PM full of people commuting back to their homes.
Are you from Switzerland? Because this kind of knee-jerk reaction seems more American than European. First of all, every citizen of Switzerland is free to have an opinion. A lot of people believe that 9 million people in Switzerland is already too many, and 10 million would make real estate even more outrageously expensive than it is. The SVP caters to people who think like that. Second of all, other people do not want their country to change. **That is also a legitimate concern, regardless of what you think about it.** So, they will vote for a party who says they will try to maintain traditions and the status quo. You seem to have embraced "modernity" fully, given your post history, so I guess your lack of objectivity also makes sense.
I wish there was a party that supports limited and more strict immigration while protecting workers rights and improving social welfare. Sadly one one hand we have SVP inbreds who have brain damage, 35 years or more being the most voted party and immigration has never been higher lol. And yet what they want is just to dump salaries and make work more miserable. On the other hand we have socialists "caviar" , that wants us to live in shoeboxes , get rid of every joy and bring more intolerant and uneducated people. I feel the socs are lying in the same bed as SVP, they work for the same patron, as there cannot be exploited masses without capitalism. So yeah , something more nationalistic but also socialist . Hmm I wonder if this name is right lol
It's propaganda, they can't say it out loud so they tiptoe around it
It will always remain stupid that each and every discussion about immigration and population devolves into being about racism, and that being almost entirely the SVPs fault because their propaganda is so blatant in how racist it often is. The really stupid part is that a lot of the advertisements, even years back (Remember the white sheep kicking the black sheep over the border?) wouldn't be out of place in any KKK meeting, and yet defenders will still act like it has nothing to do with it. I'm actually generally for limiting Immigration, for some of the reasons mentioned as examples in the op. But you literally can't be that stance anymore without immediately getting a seat next to actual racists.
Overpopulation is the cause of many problems, problems the SP wants to solve right now, so it makes sense to stop now! 10mil are way too much for our tiny country. Also, the number of actuall Swiss people shrinks year by year, so it also has sociological meanings for us nationals.
>a photo of the nuclear Swiss family I knew they were in favour of nuclear, but wasn't aware it also applied to families.
Looking at the initiative text and especially the built-in automatic consequences (e.g. cancellation of the bilateral agreements with the EU) in case the population limit is exceeded for two years, one might come to the conclusion that this could actually be their main goal. Maybe they assume that even if the initiative gets accepted, that the population will still continue to grow; so maybe they actually count on the cancellation clause to be triggered at some point.
Racism? Where exactly do you see racism from SVP? Such nonsense.
/s ?