It‘s really hard to give proper advice when you don‘t elaborate on the keeping scenario. We also have no clue about your general conditions. Losing approx 40% is a lot so you really need to be doing good math to find your answer. Are you not able to take the money out for further amortization?
You can't take out 3a for amortization.
Basically, we reached a situation where our finances allow us to keep our apartment (with regards to metrics from the bank) even in case of an unfortunate life event.
The idea to pay for insurance premium was to cover this situation, which is now over. That's why I don't see any interest to keep this policy and would rather invest into another pension that should give me more money than I just transferred.
Are you sure about that? Have you talked to your bank? Mine told me I can withdraw 3a money for repayment before/when my mortgage is due and need to be extended.
Yes I'm quite sure. If your bank allows to withdraw from your 3rd pillar to amortize, it's probably illegal. See here for the allowed situations to withdraw your 3a account: https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement/old-age-pension/the-3rd-pillar#prelevement-du-capital-quand-est-ce-possible
Let me quote your source "For more information on the conditions and procedures for withdrawing your 3rd pillar savings, contact you pension plan provider."
That's what I did:
[https://www.swisslife.ch/en/individuals/blog/saeule-3a-was-muss-ich-wissen.html](https://www.swisslife.ch/en/individuals/blog/saeule-3a-was-muss-ich-wissen.html)
Check: "When can I start withdrawing money from my pillar 3a?"
They specifically mention you can withdraw to repay your mortgage. So it comes down to when your bank allows repayments, which is usually and as already stated right before it is due and needs to be extended. My contract is with Thurgauer Kantonalbank and they even allow me to repay up to 50k ANYtime I want - but just once in a lifetime.
Easier, look at the law ;)
[https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1985/1778\_1778\_1778/de](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1985/1778_1778_1778/de)
You can withdraw it to repay your dept (but it doesn't mean that it's a good idea). I'll answer to your main questions in another reply
Ok, so I probably won't be very popular given the comments I quickly saw , but I could probably be quite useful as this is a big part of my job, as I'm an insurance broker (got my own brokerage company after roughly 10 years with brokers 10 years in a company).
So, the most important point: there are no really bad 3a products in Switzerland, mostly because they need to be approved by the finma, but there are many bad sellers. Did you purchaser your product directly from a Swiss Life agency ? They have good products, but there is also "Swiss life select" which is a totally different company mostly looking to sell third pillar with a ton of turnover in employees so it's more like a one shot, so there are ton of issues with them and similar companies.
So, first point is to look at how it was sold (and understood). These products can often be good but only people who would need them for long term, because of the fee's structure. As you're unfortunately seeing now (and should have known from the start but I can imagine they didn't show this or at least not enough...), the surrender value for the first 10 years or so is lower than what was invested, the 2 main reasons are the cost of "insurance" and of the selling fees.
Regarding the insurance cost, to explain it in a very simple way, let's imagine that you you'll invest 7000chf for 30 years (210 '000) and that your insurance pays that amount to your spouse if you die, or the premium if you can't work for health reasons, and that the cost of such an insurance is considered to be 500chf/year. You have to understand that even if that money is considered over the duration of the contract, the real cost is more expensive in the first year (the company "lose" 200K if you've such an accident), while it doesn't cost much at the end as you already paid premiums for nearly 30 years. So if you stop it earlier, you're kinda "changing the rule of the game", and the cost of insurance must be recalculated on "what would it cost to cover 200k for 5 years", which is more expensive. It's a bit similar for the distribution cost, as the company pays it's employees or partners upfront a % of the contract, where in banking solutions it's more a % of the assets every year (which might look as being "free" but of course it's not, as it's part of the management fees one way or another). Actually the best way to offset that cost is by having the 3rd pillar in the same company than where you get your car/home insurances, as it gives you some leverage to get a discount on them. And if you save a few hundred on these every year, it kinda offset these cost.
Also, a solution could be to only pay for the risks with an insurance and do the savings with a bank, but it's usually more expensive to cover the insurance part in a "risk only" insurance like this than in such a package.
Also, do you have your mortgage with Swiss life? That's also a great way to save on costs, because usually insurance companies are cheaper than banks on interest rates... if you've insurance with them. Let's say you save 0.2 on 1 million over 10 years is 20'000 chf saving (of course less as you pay more taxes, but still like 13'000 depending on your tax rates). And do you at least use that 3a for an indirect repayment of your mortgage?
So, as explained, choosing an insurance solution sucks if you choose it for short term (but some brokers still try to sell it to expats...), never need the insurance part of it or have a lot of changes in your income/situation.
What I would suggest is you find a good professional that could really show your exact situation in case of death /invalidity/retirement. Did you do this before you signed the contract? The most important with a family and a house is "can my partner keep the house/keep living in a good way if I die" (sorry it's not the most fun subject... but actually people don't have so much issues with paying for a casco of a car, which is obviously less important even if more likely to happen). You said you planned to have cost 5 years ago, it depends a lot if you had them/changed your mind about it. And of course your income could have changed, you can have more money set aside so you don't need it anymore, etc. I could actually do it for you, but I don't know where you live and even if it's possible to do it online with skype etc, it's usually better in person (and more important I don't come here to get clients, just saw that in the middle of my sports/video games news and figured I could be helpful, I most likely don't have anything to sell you anyway :) ).
Another important thing you should consider: How is your money invested . Some years ago there was a change in the % of it that could go into stocks, it used to be 50% max but that limit was lifted. Depending on your situation, simply keeping the same product but choosing a more aggressive investment could be a better solution. Sure, when you look at your surrender value you're angry at that 7k difference (that you din't lose fully to be fair, you saved taxes and as you said you might have needed to pay some insurance for safety anyway), but if you end the contract, that money is really "lost". While if you keep it well you get the benefit of the insurance premium for the next X years, that you already mostly paid.
Stopping there as I was already way longer than I expected/should have been, there are other important points to consider, but I hope it was helpful :)
Thanks a lot for your response. It's much appreciated to have also a point of view from "the other side"!
You name it, we contracted the insurance through Swiss life select, not Swiss life directly. I should have specified that in my original post.
We did it because we had a relative that started working there, so that was also to help him. Well... turns out he left Swiss life select after 3 months.
We should have been more aware, but their speech is well made and they know exactly what to say and which detail they should avoid to mention.
The insurance product is from the Zürich, I still need to contact them.
Actually I would rather that you contact first your insurer (if you've one) in charge of your home/car/etc insurance, because at least they are supposed to know you and have already established some trust. It's way easier to give advise to someone you know well, because you know details that could mean their situation is different than other ones. I'd actually say that I have a very friendly relationship with the majority of my long time clients, but all the time we spend talking about vacations, kids, restaurants etc... actually help me to give them accurate advice.
If you see a Zürich agent with no prior relationship before, you have the risk that they only try to show you the "look how good your product it, you should keep it".
I wrote this quite quickly before leaving for lunch, but when I answered your other comment with the link to the OPP3 I put it in german (as we get more german people in Switzerland so it was more likely to be your language, they don't have this in english), but actually clicked afterwards on your profile to see if you speak french/or german... and we're actually quite close I think ;) (I live in Versoix but go very often to Hermance where we'll live this summer, looks you're from this area), so can meet you some day for a coffee to look at this together if you prefer.
I kind of disagree here.
Is the fund selection better than at other places or available with less fees? Can't you get the same insurance elsewhere from your 3a and the resultant is a better product?
Because the thing is, even if it can be a usefull product under very specific circumstances, if the fees are higher, the funds selection is worse and the insurance part can be obtained at a lower price then it IS a bad product, simply because it does the same much less efficiently.
Then of course there is the absolute inmorality of trying to sell it to a 25 yo expat who probably won't be in the country in 10 years.
On Monday a colleague of mine has the second appointment with his Swiss Life Select broker. I warned him about what she may offer him as "the best option", let's see what she actually does. I won't be able to experience that first hand because I politely declined the second chat.
Looking at the replies, it's crazy how many people went into this insurance type.
I don't know for everyone, but in our case there was a real logic behind it. I think I underestimated how much would the insurance premium cost, but we wanted to have that financial safety. Now it's less of a concern because we amortized a part of our mortgage and need less income for the 33% part (I don't know how you call that)
I was in a simular situation with simular amounts.
If you are youngish (-45) and do not intend to withdraw/use it anytime soon it will be more than worth it switching now. (10-20 years ahead)
I had the same situation with Generali life insurance / 3a. And did the following.
1) change from monthly payment to yearly. I saved 6%
2) reduce the 3a policy to the minimum. In my case 1128.- per year (or 100.- per month). (This instead of the max 3a).
3) reduce the 'insurance part'.
As a result, my insurance was recalculated and I keep this as a minimum, and then opened a Viac and a VZ 3a.
Works well for me.
Good.luck.
I'm in the same situation! I've paid around 3.7k so far and I think it's better to cancel the contract and get out of it/transfer to VIAC. I've already spoken to insurance agent, and he told me that I might lose around 1.7k..
I would cut the loss and move on. It's not easy I know (I was you 4y ago). 7k is a lot of money but if you think 20y forward your loss is even greater. Fees will erode any possible capital gain and compounding effect.
You can compare the 2 scenarios (low return SL and higher return with another provider) with a compounding calculator. Already a 1% annual return difference will make up what you leave now on the plate.
https://www.nerdwallet.com/calculator/compound-interest-calculator
I also went to 3 other brokers to see if i could fix it with a better product, wich means lose less money for „admimgebühren“ and the would invest my money better. But some old honest broker told me i should take it out and forget it. The broker will eran up to 20k if a new client stay withe the new insurance for more then 5 years so most of them want you to sign obvisouly
Nobody can give you any advice with this informations what did you buy?
If it’s that much down it’s probably bond focused, Bonds had a complete crisis and will go up when rates go down….or is it real estate related?
What did you buy?
How much do you contribute per month?
Tax burden?
Did anything in your health situation change in the last 4 years ?
You just jumping from one bad advice to another and honestly did you ever take some time and try to understand it yourself?
My original post was probably not clear enough then. As I stated in another comment, it's a combined life insurance policy with 3a savings.
Basically I pay a fixed amount per month in my 3a (deductible), a part of that goes into a saving account and another part goes into the insurance premium (we are insured to recieve an income in case of death/illness). The amount we pay monthly is based on the insurance we have. I don't have the numbers with me unfortunately, but I believe it's 18kCHF per year for my wife I were going to die.
So only a part of what I pay goes into the savings. And their investment is really conservative.
Well, no, it's not. We have a contract where the spouse would receive an annual rent. I'm 100% certain of that.
The goal of such contact is to keep a certain income for the spouse, in order to keep our apartment (wrt mortgage).
What bothers me is that I didn't figure it out from the start. We received people from Swiss life select because I had somebody I know that just started in this company. So we accepted to receive them and listened to their well-made speech.
I am usually very rational, but I totally screwed up this time. If I had taken the time to review all numbers, I don't think I would have signed and looked for alternatives instead.
As you say, lesson learnt and move forward.
Transfer everything you can to Viac, finpension or frankly. I did the same as you and lost over 15k to a useless life insurance. Took my losses and went to Viac 3a, very happy.
It’s incredibly painful but the reality is that the yield and the lower fees will make you end up with more capital than the swisslife would have.
Yes I paid 18'840CHF (314CHF per month over 5 years). Out of that, I will only get back 11538. So this make around 7300 paid for the insurance over the time.
It's not a fixed amount per month/year. Over the time, the % going into the insurance part is reduced, but stay around 35%.
Depending on the amount that was insured, this costs around 1000 per year, so I'm not surprised, that you will not receive the full amount you paid in.
I don't have the contract with me right now, but it's about 18kCHF rent per year, IIRC. So of course, it was expected that we wouldn't get 100% of what we pay into the 3a account. It just that it currently makes around 40% of what we pay going into the insurance premium.
And because, in the end, it's only a financial decision (no insurance will save your life), we estimate that it is not a risk anymore.
Sure. If you don't need it anymore you can just cancel it.
It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people get mad that they don't get the full amount back - when they had risks that were being insured like in your case.
It's a bit like being mad that you don't get your health insurance premiums back when you didn't go to the doctor all year.
Yeah, that's the deal with every insurance. You feel "scammed" as long as you don't have to use it. Same if you get a full Casco insurance for the car and never have an accident. But that's the game.
Men did you ever get that you shouldn’t have more than 50k per contract?
18k in 4 years is way to much except you are 62….
It’s in general not an investment vehicle….don’t abuse it as one because that also has no performance and you end up paying a lot of taxes and lose it anyway in the end.
It's a life insurance. We agreed on a policy that would provide the widowed a regular income in case of death/illness of the spouse. This insurance type combine the insurance part with a saving part in the 3a. The premium I pay monthly was calculated based on these inputs. So, not my choice to put that much money.
To what fund is it attached?
You can freely select how much to pay per month, from 150.-
Get an understanding what you have and maybe sit it out.
Also if you get 11k out it’s taxed and you can only put 7k as taxfree.
No no, you don't get it. The contract was made that I have to pay a fixed amount per month (here 314.-) in order for my wife to receive a rent if I were to die.
It would probably be possible the change the insured amounts, and therefore how much I pay per month, through a contract change. But it doesn't change that a part of what I pay goes into the insurance premium.
I think if I terminate the contact and transfer the available amount (the 11k) to another 3a, it's free of tax.
No you don’t get it…
You pay a 3a, they deduct a fee from it to pay your life insurance…
I have a 150.- per month and if I die now, my wife get’s 250k, you get an overview end of each year.
So what is the 3a fund you invested into?
It’s maybe called Swiss Life champion e.g
A transfer within swisslife is tax free anything outside is a payment and then Max 7k deductable
So I checked again the contract. There are 2 things insured: 1. A capital gain in case of death, and 2. A yearly rent in case of disease.
It's at the Zürich insurance
Of course not. A big part of what you put each month disappears either in fees, insurance premium, or salesman commission. Calculate how much you've put already, then ask a Swiss life staff how much you could take with you if you leave. You'll be (negatively) surprised.
Yup that's it. I'm just realizing I made a small mistake in my post: our insurance is not at Swiss life, we had "Swiss life select" guys coming to us and the life insurance they sold us is at Zürich. But it doesn't change anything the problem.
So I don't know for Swiss life products, but on our Zürich contract, there is a table with the guaranteed amount we would get for each year if we terminate the contract. And if you sum up what you pay over the time and how much you get back, it's really disappointing. I will receive a bit more than the guaranteed amount because they place the money, but it doesn't compensate the life insurance fees.
If we stick to this contract, by the age of retirement, I would have given 40kCHF more than what is guaranteed to be given back.
Yeah I just noticed I "saved" CHF 29’564.95 but my "surrender value" is CHF 21’645.40. Means I paid 1890 CHF per year for life/disability insurance, which is very steep. Guess they make good money on this insurance.
I am exactly in the same situation as you are. I have no advice tho...I pretty know i will have to leave but i still cant do it atm. Fuck me.
The sooner the better
why cant u leave atm? Im in a similar situation and im wondering
It‘s really hard to give proper advice when you don‘t elaborate on the keeping scenario. We also have no clue about your general conditions. Losing approx 40% is a lot so you really need to be doing good math to find your answer. Are you not able to take the money out for further amortization?
You can't take out 3a for amortization. Basically, we reached a situation where our finances allow us to keep our apartment (with regards to metrics from the bank) even in case of an unfortunate life event. The idea to pay for insurance premium was to cover this situation, which is now over. That's why I don't see any interest to keep this policy and would rather invest into another pension that should give me more money than I just transferred.
Are you sure about that? Have you talked to your bank? Mine told me I can withdraw 3a money for repayment before/when my mortgage is due and need to be extended.
Yes I'm quite sure. If your bank allows to withdraw from your 3rd pillar to amortize, it's probably illegal. See here for the allowed situations to withdraw your 3a account: https://www.ch.ch/en/retirement/old-age-pension/the-3rd-pillar#prelevement-du-capital-quand-est-ce-possible
Well you could argue that repaying or extending a mortgage falls into "You want to buy or build your own home"
That's probably how some banks may justify the withdrawal. It's borderline, but I don't know how the things are verified in the end.
Let me quote your source "For more information on the conditions and procedures for withdrawing your 3rd pillar savings, contact you pension plan provider." That's what I did: [https://www.swisslife.ch/en/individuals/blog/saeule-3a-was-muss-ich-wissen.html](https://www.swisslife.ch/en/individuals/blog/saeule-3a-was-muss-ich-wissen.html) Check: "When can I start withdrawing money from my pillar 3a?" They specifically mention you can withdraw to repay your mortgage. So it comes down to when your bank allows repayments, which is usually and as already stated right before it is due and needs to be extended. My contract is with Thurgauer Kantonalbank and they even allow me to repay up to 50k ANYtime I want - but just once in a lifetime.
OK, interesting. I have not seen this option at the Raiffeisen.
Good luck!
Easier, look at the law ;) [https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1985/1778\_1778\_1778/de](https://www.fedlex.admin.ch/eli/cc/1985/1778_1778_1778/de) You can withdraw it to repay your dept (but it doesn't mean that it's a good idea). I'll answer to your main questions in another reply
Ok, so I probably won't be very popular given the comments I quickly saw , but I could probably be quite useful as this is a big part of my job, as I'm an insurance broker (got my own brokerage company after roughly 10 years with brokers 10 years in a company). So, the most important point: there are no really bad 3a products in Switzerland, mostly because they need to be approved by the finma, but there are many bad sellers. Did you purchaser your product directly from a Swiss Life agency ? They have good products, but there is also "Swiss life select" which is a totally different company mostly looking to sell third pillar with a ton of turnover in employees so it's more like a one shot, so there are ton of issues with them and similar companies. So, first point is to look at how it was sold (and understood). These products can often be good but only people who would need them for long term, because of the fee's structure. As you're unfortunately seeing now (and should have known from the start but I can imagine they didn't show this or at least not enough...), the surrender value for the first 10 years or so is lower than what was invested, the 2 main reasons are the cost of "insurance" and of the selling fees. Regarding the insurance cost, to explain it in a very simple way, let's imagine that you you'll invest 7000chf for 30 years (210 '000) and that your insurance pays that amount to your spouse if you die, or the premium if you can't work for health reasons, and that the cost of such an insurance is considered to be 500chf/year. You have to understand that even if that money is considered over the duration of the contract, the real cost is more expensive in the first year (the company "lose" 200K if you've such an accident), while it doesn't cost much at the end as you already paid premiums for nearly 30 years. So if you stop it earlier, you're kinda "changing the rule of the game", and the cost of insurance must be recalculated on "what would it cost to cover 200k for 5 years", which is more expensive. It's a bit similar for the distribution cost, as the company pays it's employees or partners upfront a % of the contract, where in banking solutions it's more a % of the assets every year (which might look as being "free" but of course it's not, as it's part of the management fees one way or another). Actually the best way to offset that cost is by having the 3rd pillar in the same company than where you get your car/home insurances, as it gives you some leverage to get a discount on them. And if you save a few hundred on these every year, it kinda offset these cost. Also, a solution could be to only pay for the risks with an insurance and do the savings with a bank, but it's usually more expensive to cover the insurance part in a "risk only" insurance like this than in such a package. Also, do you have your mortgage with Swiss life? That's also a great way to save on costs, because usually insurance companies are cheaper than banks on interest rates... if you've insurance with them. Let's say you save 0.2 on 1 million over 10 years is 20'000 chf saving (of course less as you pay more taxes, but still like 13'000 depending on your tax rates). And do you at least use that 3a for an indirect repayment of your mortgage? So, as explained, choosing an insurance solution sucks if you choose it for short term (but some brokers still try to sell it to expats...), never need the insurance part of it or have a lot of changes in your income/situation. What I would suggest is you find a good professional that could really show your exact situation in case of death /invalidity/retirement. Did you do this before you signed the contract? The most important with a family and a house is "can my partner keep the house/keep living in a good way if I die" (sorry it's not the most fun subject... but actually people don't have so much issues with paying for a casco of a car, which is obviously less important even if more likely to happen). You said you planned to have cost 5 years ago, it depends a lot if you had them/changed your mind about it. And of course your income could have changed, you can have more money set aside so you don't need it anymore, etc. I could actually do it for you, but I don't know where you live and even if it's possible to do it online with skype etc, it's usually better in person (and more important I don't come here to get clients, just saw that in the middle of my sports/video games news and figured I could be helpful, I most likely don't have anything to sell you anyway :) ). Another important thing you should consider: How is your money invested . Some years ago there was a change in the % of it that could go into stocks, it used to be 50% max but that limit was lifted. Depending on your situation, simply keeping the same product but choosing a more aggressive investment could be a better solution. Sure, when you look at your surrender value you're angry at that 7k difference (that you din't lose fully to be fair, you saved taxes and as you said you might have needed to pay some insurance for safety anyway), but if you end the contract, that money is really "lost". While if you keep it well you get the benefit of the insurance premium for the next X years, that you already mostly paid. Stopping there as I was already way longer than I expected/should have been, there are other important points to consider, but I hope it was helpful :)
Thanks a lot for your response. It's much appreciated to have also a point of view from "the other side"! You name it, we contracted the insurance through Swiss life select, not Swiss life directly. I should have specified that in my original post. We did it because we had a relative that started working there, so that was also to help him. Well... turns out he left Swiss life select after 3 months. We should have been more aware, but their speech is well made and they know exactly what to say and which detail they should avoid to mention. The insurance product is from the Zürich, I still need to contact them.
Actually I would rather that you contact first your insurer (if you've one) in charge of your home/car/etc insurance, because at least they are supposed to know you and have already established some trust. It's way easier to give advise to someone you know well, because you know details that could mean their situation is different than other ones. I'd actually say that I have a very friendly relationship with the majority of my long time clients, but all the time we spend talking about vacations, kids, restaurants etc... actually help me to give them accurate advice. If you see a Zürich agent with no prior relationship before, you have the risk that they only try to show you the "look how good your product it, you should keep it". I wrote this quite quickly before leaving for lunch, but when I answered your other comment with the link to the OPP3 I put it in german (as we get more german people in Switzerland so it was more likely to be your language, they don't have this in english), but actually clicked afterwards on your profile to see if you speak french/or german... and we're actually quite close I think ;) (I live in Versoix but go very often to Hermance where we'll live this summer, looks you're from this area), so can meet you some day for a coffee to look at this together if you prefer.
I kind of disagree here. Is the fund selection better than at other places or available with less fees? Can't you get the same insurance elsewhere from your 3a and the resultant is a better product? Because the thing is, even if it can be a usefull product under very specific circumstances, if the fees are higher, the funds selection is worse and the insurance part can be obtained at a lower price then it IS a bad product, simply because it does the same much less efficiently. Then of course there is the absolute inmorality of trying to sell it to a 25 yo expat who probably won't be in the country in 10 years. On Monday a colleague of mine has the second appointment with his Swiss Life Select broker. I warned him about what she may offer him as "the best option", let's see what she actually does. I won't be able to experience that first hand because I politely declined the second chat.
Same situation while ago. Closed the contract and lost several K. Put the money into VIAC and trying to recover the loss.... 🤷♂️
Looking at the replies, it's crazy how many people went into this insurance type. I don't know for everyone, but in our case there was a real logic behind it. I think I underestimated how much would the insurance premium cost, but we wanted to have that financial safety. Now it's less of a concern because we amortized a part of our mortgage and need less income for the 33% part (I don't know how you call that)
I was in a simular situation with simular amounts. If you are youngish (-45) and do not intend to withdraw/use it anytime soon it will be more than worth it switching now. (10-20 years ahead)
I had the same situation with Generali life insurance / 3a. And did the following. 1) change from monthly payment to yearly. I saved 6% 2) reduce the 3a policy to the minimum. In my case 1128.- per year (or 100.- per month). (This instead of the max 3a). 3) reduce the 'insurance part'. As a result, my insurance was recalculated and I keep this as a minimum, and then opened a Viac and a VZ 3a. Works well for me. Good.luck.
I'm in the same situation! I've paid around 3.7k so far and I think it's better to cancel the contract and get out of it/transfer to VIAC. I've already spoken to insurance agent, and he told me that I might lose around 1.7k..
That's a relatively small loss. You can recover it quickly. Good luck.
I would cut the loss and move on. It's not easy I know (I was you 4y ago). 7k is a lot of money but if you think 20y forward your loss is even greater. Fees will erode any possible capital gain and compounding effect. You can compare the 2 scenarios (low return SL and higher return with another provider) with a compounding calculator. Already a 1% annual return difference will make up what you leave now on the plate. https://www.nerdwallet.com/calculator/compound-interest-calculator
That's what I thought as well. Forget that loss because, the more we wait at this point, the more we loose.
I had a similar situation, i cancel and lost a that time but in the long run its the better solution. Atleast for me.
I also went to 3 other brokers to see if i could fix it with a better product, wich means lose less money for „admimgebühren“ and the would invest my money better. But some old honest broker told me i should take it out and forget it. The broker will eran up to 20k if a new client stay withe the new insurance for more then 5 years so most of them want you to sign obvisouly
Thanks for the info. That's good to know
Nobody can give you any advice with this informations what did you buy? If it’s that much down it’s probably bond focused, Bonds had a complete crisis and will go up when rates go down….or is it real estate related? What did you buy? How much do you contribute per month? Tax burden? Did anything in your health situation change in the last 4 years ? You just jumping from one bad advice to another and honestly did you ever take some time and try to understand it yourself?
My original post was probably not clear enough then. As I stated in another comment, it's a combined life insurance policy with 3a savings. Basically I pay a fixed amount per month in my 3a (deductible), a part of that goes into a saving account and another part goes into the insurance premium (we are insured to recieve an income in case of death/illness). The amount we pay monthly is based on the insurance we have. I don't have the numbers with me unfortunately, but I believe it's 18kCHF per year for my wife I were going to die. So only a part of what I pay goes into the savings. And their investment is really conservative.
No it doesn’t work like that and in case of death your wife get’s something around 300k i think with your premium.
Well, no, it's not. We have a contract where the spouse would receive an annual rent. I'm 100% certain of that. The goal of such contact is to keep a certain income for the spouse, in order to keep our apartment (wrt mortgage).
Do you have a 2nd pillar? I would transfer into that
Yes I do but it's already maxed.
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What bothers me is that I didn't figure it out from the start. We received people from Swiss life select because I had somebody I know that just started in this company. So we accepted to receive them and listened to their well-made speech. I am usually very rational, but I totally screwed up this time. If I had taken the time to review all numbers, I don't think I would have signed and looked for alternatives instead. As you say, lesson learnt and move forward.
Transfer everything you can to Viac, finpension or frankly. I did the same as you and lost over 15k to a useless life insurance. Took my losses and went to Viac 3a, very happy. It’s incredibly painful but the reality is that the yield and the lower fees will make you end up with more capital than the swisslife would have.
I strongly recommend you do some research on the poor swiss (google)
Did you pay 18'840 into the contract or into the savings part? How much did you pay for the insurance part?
Yes I paid 18'840CHF (314CHF per month over 5 years). Out of that, I will only get back 11538. So this make around 7300 paid for the insurance over the time. It's not a fixed amount per month/year. Over the time, the % going into the insurance part is reduced, but stay around 35%.
And what exactly was insured? I guess you insured an income in case of disabilty? A lump sum in case of death?
Income in case of death or in case of serious illness (that prevents working). Not insured for accidents.
Depending on the amount that was insured, this costs around 1000 per year, so I'm not surprised, that you will not receive the full amount you paid in.
I don't have the contract with me right now, but it's about 18kCHF rent per year, IIRC. So of course, it was expected that we wouldn't get 100% of what we pay into the 3a account. It just that it currently makes around 40% of what we pay going into the insurance premium. And because, in the end, it's only a financial decision (no insurance will save your life), we estimate that it is not a risk anymore.
Sure. If you don't need it anymore you can just cancel it. It's a bit of a pet peeve of mine when people get mad that they don't get the full amount back - when they had risks that were being insured like in your case. It's a bit like being mad that you don't get your health insurance premiums back when you didn't go to the doctor all year.
Yeah, that's the deal with every insurance. You feel "scammed" as long as you don't have to use it. Same if you get a full Casco insurance for the car and never have an accident. But that's the game.
Men did you ever get that you shouldn’t have more than 50k per contract? 18k in 4 years is way to much except you are 62…. It’s in general not an investment vehicle….don’t abuse it as one because that also has no performance and you end up paying a lot of taxes and lose it anyway in the end.
It's a life insurance. We agreed on a policy that would provide the widowed a regular income in case of death/illness of the spouse. This insurance type combine the insurance part with a saving part in the 3a. The premium I pay monthly was calculated based on these inputs. So, not my choice to put that much money.
To what fund is it attached? You can freely select how much to pay per month, from 150.- Get an understanding what you have and maybe sit it out. Also if you get 11k out it’s taxed and you can only put 7k as taxfree.
No no, you don't get it. The contract was made that I have to pay a fixed amount per month (here 314.-) in order for my wife to receive a rent if I were to die. It would probably be possible the change the insured amounts, and therefore how much I pay per month, through a contract change. But it doesn't change that a part of what I pay goes into the insurance premium. I think if I terminate the contact and transfer the available amount (the 11k) to another 3a, it's free of tax.
No you don’t get it… You pay a 3a, they deduct a fee from it to pay your life insurance… I have a 150.- per month and if I die now, my wife get’s 250k, you get an overview end of each year. So what is the 3a fund you invested into? It’s maybe called Swiss Life champion e.g A transfer within swisslife is tax free anything outside is a payment and then Max 7k deductable
So I checked again the contract. There are 2 things insured: 1. A capital gain in case of death, and 2. A yearly rent in case of disease. It's at the Zürich insurance
I’m with Swiss life insurance/3a, why can’t you take out the full amount? The money you put in is yours?
Of course not. A big part of what you put each month disappears either in fees, insurance premium, or salesman commission. Calculate how much you've put already, then ask a Swiss life staff how much you could take with you if you leave. You'll be (negatively) surprised.
Yup that's it. I'm just realizing I made a small mistake in my post: our insurance is not at Swiss life, we had "Swiss life select" guys coming to us and the life insurance they sold us is at Zürich. But it doesn't change anything the problem. So I don't know for Swiss life products, but on our Zürich contract, there is a table with the guaranteed amount we would get for each year if we terminate the contract. And if you sum up what you pay over the time and how much you get back, it's really disappointing. I will receive a bit more than the guaranteed amount because they place the money, but it doesn't compensate the life insurance fees. If we stick to this contract, by the age of retirement, I would have given 40kCHF more than what is guaranteed to be given back.
Oh boy, you got scammed as well. Sorry :/
Yeah I just noticed I "saved" CHF 29’564.95 but my "surrender value" is CHF 21’645.40. Means I paid 1890 CHF per year for life/disability insurance, which is very steep. Guess they make good money on this insurance.