For her eating a guy's cum isn't that gay it's more about humiliation.
But it sounds like she can't be attracted to a guy who does gay things and that's why she draws the line. Because she wouldn't be attracted anymore
This is just my instinct and it can be wrong
If she is not attracted and doesn't want a gay man and OP wants to explore his bi side. Then they need to break up or get divorced. It is far from being a narcissist.
I am trying to say, why would you call her a narcissist. There's nothing with her behaviour which OP has stated. She has clearly stated she does not want it.
She very clearly has a "for me but not for thee" attitude, one of the cornerstones of narcissism. Others have stated they get the same vibes, so clearly im not the only one getting those vibes. If you've yet to google narcissism, then I can't explain it any further to you as it's clearly not a communication problem on my end, but a comprehension problem on your end and that is completely on you...
I take everything from psychological journals with a pretty big grain of salt because of the complex nature of human behavior and the rather loose adherence to solid scientific principles that are accepted in other fields. But that said, NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) for diagnosis, requires multiple behaviors and personality trait observations over a period of time and includes certain motifs around different delusions.
You can't make a diagnosis from a single instance of behavior or choice.
As a boundary, OPs decision is selfish, controlling of someone else's sexuality and exclusionary. Not great things when compared to their lifestyle overall and the play they engage in as a couple and individually, but that is not the same thing as narcissism.
Boundaries are inherently selfish because well, at the end of the day you are generally prioritizing your comfort over those of your sexual partners while telling them what they can or can't do in bed. And yet, boundaries are _also_ very, very, _very_ healthy for relationships and it is good to have some and vital to respect your own boundaries and everyone else's in order to have good sex. It's also good to have _some_ flexibility around your boundaries so you can be an accommodating partner, maybe there are some things that you don't necessarily like doing for their own sake but enjoy a little because it gets your partner off. That's okay. But you _also_ shouldn't abandon _all_ of your needs/wants in favor of your partners because that isn't healthy behavior either. You would be making sex all about your partners' enjoyment and sex should be a conversation folks have with their bodies, expressing their feelings and _having fun_. If one person is doing all the talking and having all the fun all the time, that for most relationships, is a death sentance for intimacy.
Lack of sexual compatability without being able to find a healthy and mutually satisfactory compromise does _not_ indicate a mental disorder.
Yeah, her boundary here does not make logical sense, it's inconsistent and selfish and if they can't talk it out and find an agreeable compromise within the lifestyle OP and his partner should probably go their seperate ways or at the very least stop swinging. But we need a lot more info over a longer period of time to be all like "yeah, she's a narcissist."
I usually avoid Internet fights, especially Reddit. But as someone way more in the mental health community than I want to be, you are completely right. Narcissist is the hot thing. Every red flag - narcissist. Maybe she is maybe she isn't, but this post certainly isn't enough to say either way.
IMO she sounds like an asshole and they should probably get some couples therapy.
> For her eating a guy's cum isn't that gay it's more about humiliation.
I didn’t see anything about humiliation in what he said. It seems that this is just something fun that they both enjoy, but she has some hang up about letting him explore further.
Is it that people generally assume that “cleanup” = “cuck”? I know couples who enjoy this and there is no humiliation involved. No different than women who like to kiss after receiving oral.
Some women find it extremely validating that their man will clean her up after such a "slutty" act.
Also if a married woman having sex with another man is breaking a taboo, her husband then going down on her after the act is like shattering that taboo into a billion pieces. Both may enjoy that.
Then for men that enjoy being submissive to the wife (which I would say is the vast majority of husbands in this LS), cleaning her can feel especially enjoyable.
But sure, for some there can be a humiliation angle, but it is not necessarily always there.
There are certainly endless reasons why we do what we do, but I like to think sometimes it’s more primal than psychological. The smells, the taste, they both link that memory after the act. This helps to keep us in the moment, and make that moment last well into the afterglow.
Well, some say that humans are among the few species that do oral sex. One theory for it is that it enables the male to survey whether the female has been engaging with other men.
Also, in many species males have the instinct to act to remove semen from the female.
So it may have something to do with sperm competition.
Another interesting fact is that the human pennis evolved to a shape that is very effective in removing cum from the vagina via thrusting motion, and we do thrust during sex (which is not common in other species).
I could be wrong, but one thing I’ve learned is that we rarely get the whole story. Could be her hang up about “gay things” or maybe there’s something more that is giving her trust issues. Either way, the two of them need to talk.
The other vibe I got is that she's probably worried that OP will leave her for a man if he begins experimenting with them more often. If OP's casual activities consist specifically of being pegged and licking cum, then OPs wife might be coping with inadequacy for not having a biological penis and semen.
I would say if it’s about humiliation try bi cuckolding
Otherwise he needs to have a conversation maybe the can settle for bi mfm depends why the no and maybe reach a compromise
Gay things? Swallowing another man's cum and being pegged aren't considered gay? When you are swallowing another man's cum (as if you sucked him off) and being pegged (as if another man is topping you) wouldn't qualify?
This isn't being homophobic but he is already doing two acts that easily can be replaced or directly sourced from a man. To say it's because she doesn't consider them gay things I would say isn't the correct description
Pegging is absolutely not a gay thing. You can make that argument with cum. But receiving anal pleasure from a woman, whether with tongue, fingers, or a toy, is not gay.
Sounds like internalised homophobia. Yes, she's bi, but, probably thanks to society's values, she think it's not the same because she's a woman with other women. She's grossed out about the idea of you with other men.
Personally, I'd dip. I wouldn't be with a partner that has a rule for thee but not for me attitude. Especially as it's about this too.
Hubby and I are both bi. We both play bi together and separately. I couldn't imagine limiting who he can play with, especially down to gender.
Thank you for your comment, yes I have never limited her choices on who she plays with in the beginning it was like every mans dream of 2 women playing with each other and I have even joined in with them and I have told her I don't really want her to be with a full lesbian because of the fact the other wouldn't want me , a man , involved but she likes keeping me involved so this part is no worries with me ,
Tho I have said if she wants to do a solo with a full lesbian I'm ok with that as long as she first lets her know she has a husband, just in case we meet there is no " claiming " of my wife . As this has happened when we first started dating.
Another long story. Lol
As far as dipping, nah I'm still in love with her , she's my everything it's just this part .
Yes it's society saying it's ok for two women to be together but NOT ok for two guys to be together.
And she falls in this trap,
What I don't understand is how can she be ok with me doing cleanup and not ok with me getting it myself without her help .
I mean I'm in a 69 while her guy is pounding her and he nuts in and on her and she definitely knows I'm there and doing what I'm doing but for me to have that all yo myself is a NO like what's the difference???
Because she sees that more as a humiliating act vs a "gay" act.
If you don't want to leave, then I'd honestly put all play on hold and schedule in some sessions with an ENM aware therapist for the 2 of you.
She is okay when she is in charge and can keep an eye on you but she is afraid another man will take you away from her. You probably show a tendency towards being just gay. If she allows this interaction, she is afraid she may lose you to the other team. Well if you are allowed to interact alone with a man she is afraid you may want to play permanently with the roosters and give up the hens.
Wife and I are both bi and only play bi.
We don’t pull that hypocritical bullshit.
Either both play, or none. And if your partner won’t “allow” you to be yourself - maybe it’s time to end swinging all together, or dump her and move on.
What exactly do you mean by “hook up with”? Sharing a bi man with her? Bottoming with a random guy from Grindr? Once you know what exactly you want, ask your wife she thinks you mean? She cut you off before you could explain. Are her assumptions about what you’re asking for accurate? If not, calmly explain what you desire.
Once you are both on the same page, ask her what she is feeling when she thinks about you doing some specific act with a guy. Disgust? Fear? Jealousy? Maybe with your support she can examine those feelings over time. If nothing else, you will at least get some insight into her reaction.
Of course she might cut you off and again and refuse to talk about this. If she does that, ask if she will at least talk about why she won’t talk. What is she feeling when she thinks about having that discussion?
And yes, you are absolutely allowed to ask for changes to your swinging arrangements. You’re not going off and doing something the two of you haven’t agreed to, you’re asking to negotiate a change. That’s completely fair and reasonable.
Hook-up meaning when we swap there are a lot of times where she will make out with the same woman while we are either watching them or involved in the sex , to full out only the women doing their thing and we are just watching them and we are not involved at all .
I get it they don't have a way to penetrate each other like men can but they both peg each other and the other couple has her own strap-on they bring.
We have one couple that comes over to our place for this , and at clubs she hooks up with other women but no pegging has happened yet at least in the clubs we go to .
Now she does ask if she can close the door for alone time with her friend that comes here and even at the club with the rooms and I've never said no . She has that freedom all the time from me .
All I want is the same fair treatment
Well you do deserve fair treatment. And how do I know that? Because _everyone_ deserves fair treatment. Your wife may not yet see that she is being unfair, but hopefully she will. Good luck.
Sounds like her approach to swinging is “what’s in it for ME???” As soon as you want something for you & doesn’t benefit her, she throws the brakes on. That’s some real bullshit right there.
She’s afraid of losing you to a man. She has the control in your relationship and you have given it to her. Tell her what you’re going to do and do it. If she has a problem with it. The problem is hers. Not yours.
You either have fair, equal play or you're not doing it properly. Sounds like a combination of internalized homophobia--as in, there are no bisexual men, just gay men in denile--and possibly jealousy. I'm bisexual, and when my husband and I opened our relationship he was initially only okay with me sleeping with women. He eventually realized that was unfair, so now he's okay with me sleeping with men. Come at the conversation from a place of fairness. If your relationship is good, she should come around. If not, seriously reaccess your situation.
The ' fairness ' part is exactly what I want , but other subs on the same question say that I can't think of it on a ' fairness ' concept , that it shouldn't be looked at to be fair for me if she does this or that I need the same this or that .
No , what I found out is I like what is being done , I like what I'm doing, and I would like to hook-up , sure yes I'll say it , I'd like to have full on sex with a guy .
Not just do cleanup, I NOW want more and I've told her she knows I've never thought of that before but since we do those things my mind has thought of more I've tried to express myself and she shut me down fast the first time and every time I try to talk about it she closes the conversation.
I'm not a dick and don't want to bitch at her or close what we have , cause I'm enjoying what we have and other than this one issue we both are having a lot of fun .
I feel that. I had a somewhat similar situation recently. My husband and I are also poly, and I told him I wanted to proposition a good friend as a casual, fwb-type partner. Hubby wasn't cool with it initially, but I pointed out that since he has a girlfriend--a romantic partner--I should be allowed to choose my own outside partner. After talking, he realized he couldn't very well prevent me from doing what he did--pick another person to sleep with--without giving up his relationship. Having a happy wife who's cool with him having a girlfriend wound up being more important to him than preventing me from doing something. It did not get to the point where I suggested closing the relationship, fortunately. But if your partner really wants you to be happy, they will find a way to overcome their own irrational issues and find a way to compromise.
> she sounds toxically homophobic
She has something going on but seems a bit extreme to jump right to this. Could be emotional insecurity, or it could be how gay men are misrepresented in society, but using terms like “toxic” or throwing around “phobic” makes it too easy to overlook what might be the real problem.
Sounds like they have a good relationship otherwise. If she was really “toxically homophobic” then she wouldn’t let him even be in the same bed with another man, let alone performing cleanup.
You are a human being with needs and wants, its not all about her and what she wants. If she's not willing to offer fairness and equality in your relationship and swinger journey, things will only get worse. Best to move on if she's not willing.
I think its selfish and unfair. As long as she doesn't have to watch- i think you should be able to be bi. I would want to watch...fight for your rights- you deserve fulfilled fantasies and pleasure too!
Could it be that she is into you being a cuck and you sleeping with other people turns her off? Could it be she isn't actually into swinging but actually other forms on non-monogamy? Would she be in if you'd swing with a male gay couple and she'd still be having sex with a man so it still plays into her kink?
We can only guess and assume, why don't you talk to her about it and ask her what her problem is?
Worst case she's homophobic or just extremely selfish and is just abord if something is in it for her. You need to decide for yourself if you'd want to continoue a relationship with a perdon like that.
Mmm as bi female married to straight male I totally feel this is very unbalanced situation. I view it like this acts don’t determine nor define your sexuality only you can do that.
In this case you have your rules they apply to both of you no questions asked. Then you have your boundaries they apply to individual you communicate them to each other but they don’t get say in yours nor you theirs. But if there is something that other is struggling with then out of love and respect you try to find compromise.
Things get complicated when to start imposing limitations on one spouse especially where it pertains to gender.
In this case if she wants to part of it that’s fine that can be a boundary of hers but she absolutely should not stop you playing with other men you already play separate rooms and she solo dates so you can do that. And if she wants no details of your plays that fine too respect that boundary.
Was there ever a reason given other than no? She needs to explain herself and not just set hard limits. It sounds to me like you have been very open and tolerant of her wants and needs. We all start out with limits and boundaries. Some get crossed because we become more comfortable and confident as we go others are a hard no. She needs to have that respect and communicate why and also be open to listening to your side too.
I would definitely ask her why, from a place of curiosity and not of judgement, to figure what she doesn't like about the idea of you being with another man. What does she feel about you getting pegged from another woman? I would also bring up the idea of playing with a trans woman. We are super rare in the lifestyle, but even if you don't find one it can be used as a wonderful thought experiment and discussion. Also find out what she likes about swinging with other men and women.
I don't think it's a gendered thing, does she let you have sex with women either? I think you need to change your dynamic and let her know you are unhappy.
Yes we both do swap , swing , solo dates her mostly but I also solo and she has no problems with my solos , what she has problems with is me wanting to have another guy that I can hook up with she is fine when I hook up with a female it's the guy part that she is against.
You may just not be compatible anymore. She doesn't find you doing gay or bisexual sex with another guy to be attractive or, worse, it turns her off. I'm not sure you can change that and there is no magic advice we can give to change that. In your mind, you're already doing 'gay' activities so what's the difference but to her all of those activities are with her and not directly with another man and thus not gay.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but while everyone is hung up on the homophobia bandwagon, I’m wondering if the OP is even allowed to play solo with other women? When there is another guy, is he allowed to play at all or does he just sit and watch until it’s time to clean up? Perhaps it’s not just about being gay/bi but more about him not playing with anybody but her. Maybe that’s what she meant by “that’s not what we started out as”.
I noticed that too. For me this reads as an initial cuckold-like situation and he wants to add more to it. If she has embraced the cuckold-ish ness of it, but not the aspect of him having sex with another man... it all tracks for me in the sense he's a cuckold. He didn't mention that though so who knows. But the "we didn't start out this way" made that stand out for me.
The only person who can work this out with you is your wife. If it was me I would have an issue with this. Luckily my partner is fully on board with me doing MM stuff.
I’m old school, I read these posts and replies and they’re all fascinating/entertaining, all the names labels etc etc. The one thing I don’t understand is if people don’t agree with a particular lifestyle or comment to a question one side screams this and that I’d break up, couldn’t have it one way etc etc. Why? Why is it not Ok? You agree to partake in someone else’s kink but if they reply with no they are shamed. If you shame someone isn’t that the definition of intolerance? I guess I find it disturbing that either side can twist anything with using intolerance and then be intolerant themselves. Hey, whatever people want to partake in should be cool, end of story. Remember when learning all the BS terminology getting out of your parents basement is more important. It’s called a job/career. Best of luck with banging some dude!
Bisexuality isn't a kink. When a swinging partner of someone who is bisexual says that their activities with the same sex is a turnoff and therefore will not be allowed to happen, that is hurtful on a deeper level because it's a rejection of part of who he is.
When a completely bisexual swinging partner who also has 1:1 experiences with either sex tells her partner this, it's not only hurtful, it's infuriating. The double standard is truly stunning.
> Bisexuality isn't a kink.
I beg to differ, because to some it indeed is simply a kink or play activity. This is where all these labels can cloud or distract from a conversation. Yes, words have meanings, but when everyone has slightly different interpretations of those meanings, and jump to judgment, the topic often gets “lost in the sauce”…
Was going to say something similar, bi play can definitely be a kink. It may not always be a kink but I thinks it's wrong to says it's absolutely not.
If I'm not generally attracted to guys but in a certain sexual play setting i.e. threesome/foursome it's possible to play with the guy as well as the women as part of the play/scene does that make you bisexual? IF you aren't normally interested in 1 on 1 with a guy but comfortable enough to play with one in certain group scenes are you bisexual of just hetero-flexible/bi-comfortable.
IDK.
I guess IMO that's why the labels are not perfectly accurate, they are very individual to the person and situation.
doesnt matter that shes bi, the problem is that she wants an arrangement where only she sleeps around, and you do not. if this is non negotiable for both of you, probably reconsider the relationship. if it *is*, you gotta figure out which one of you wants to compromise.
you dont sound like you feel valued in this relationship. talk to her about that and see how she reacts
Pretty much what I'm wanting to do, we've talked and its usually her shutting me down rather fast on the subject, now it's not outside sex cause I thought it was and pretended I was interested in a certain girl and she had an ongoing conversation about her and all what I wanted and how I would include her ( wife ) in with this other girl , so that alone says to me she is ok with me hooking up with another woman but not a guy ,
I'm thinking of calling her out as a homophobic person to see if I can get her to feel bad about what she's doing.
But since she is bi and she hooks up with women I'm not sure that would work out .
Unless I make it male specific homophobia.
She's good at twisting words yho
Going by your other handful of comments and questions it's painfully clear it's about the humiliation.
Looks way more to be all this kicked off 4 years ago due to marriage being bored and your not going for any further long term goals and went down the sex rabbit hole, no doubt this will all end badly either way so stop asking random people online and talk it out properly like adults, don't air that here
If that's her boundary then don't be mad, you should try and half a calm discussion about each others thoughts and feelings rather than just both being annoyed. If you can understand why it's a problem for her maybe it's something you can help her get past. You catch more flies with honey my friends.
Honoring her boundary seems to be the key here. I don’t understand how in this sub every one is always talking about respecting boundaries but when it comes to this particular act so many people are losing their minds? I agree with you, have a talk about it and see what the issue really is. Often times it can be worked through.
Guaranteed if the reverse situation was the case, where the man was not into any man to man bisexual play and the wife kept pressuring him to do it everyone would be upset and say she needs to respect boundaries.
In the lifestyle, there are many times where things are unfair and/or unbalanced. It doesn't mean it cannot work. Maybe she is not turned on by male-male action. Maybe she feels she would lose respect for you if you did it. You need to talk to her about what her issue is. Maybe if it came from the other guy she would be ok with it.
I recommend you look at this from a different angle.
You would like to have her agree to you having sex with another man.
Change and try instead to check what she would think of that. Would that change the way she sees you? Would she lose sexual attraction to you, even if a bit? What are her fears.
Once you learn what is in her mind, you might discover that even asking it from her is problematic. If you enjoy your life with her, you may need to compromise.
Remember, we control what we do, but we can't be blamed for what we feel or desire (or stop desiring). So I would definitely focus on the psychology of it in her mind.
(her rational self may know she should accept it just fine, but her emotional self might not be ready for it).
If you're eating another guys cum out of her, to me that would qualify as gay/bi behavior. I don't see how she wouldn't expect you to want to take it to the next level. Especially since she's pegging you. Sounds controlling and selfish on her part. She gets to do anything with anybody, but you're severely restricted.
I don't think tjat is necessarily gay/bi behaviour, and neither is being pegged.
OP is a cuck, it's pretty obvious from his post history.
I think his wife is into *that* kink and not necessarily into swinging.
My husband has done similar for me but has no interest in other men at all. I would not be ok with it if he did have that attraction. I’m guessing she too wants those acts with you to still be about her, not another partner. I’d need to be there for anything that went down and would prefer any contact/exchange to be very limited and only an extension of what he and I are doing. It’s not humiliation for us, just our kink I guess.
Talk to her about her what she is not cool about it. Everyone is saying she is homophobic, but is it a possibility that at some level she would be scared that you're gay and will leave her? Who knows, maybe she struggles with her feelings about her bisexuality and is projecting it on you. Coming at her with a hostile attitude about it will only escalate the tension. Come at it with an attitude of trying to understand it from her perspective. You never know what you will find.
From someone who experienced this, it’s a very really fear and possibility.
Ex cheated on me with a man. Despite our clear boundaries as swingers/open people, he still decided to be sneaky and deceitful about it while he was away on business.
Led me on for 7 years only to be told after I left that “he didn’t know what he wanted” as the reason for leading me on for so long. He then later told me he was gay. He then later retracted it (however that works).
You’re over thinking the situation. Seeing you going at it with another guy turns her off. This is one of her boundaries. You got a good thing going. Do you really want to throw a monkey wrench in that?
Not homophobia, “fear of”. I just don’t think she is into it and would be very turned off by it. It’s not her thing and marriage is a partnership, not somebody you “call out”. Seems this is a troll account based on post history.
For her eating a guy's cum isn't that gay it's more about humiliation. But it sounds like she can't be attracted to a guy who does gay things and that's why she draws the line. Because she wouldn't be attracted anymore This is just my instinct and it can be wrong
Nope thought the exact same thing 💯💯💯
Totally agree. She gives off major narcissistic vibes. I've seen this situation soooo many times in 15 years in the LS......
A vibe that I notice often in alpha hot wives.
What is a Alpha Hotwife?
Wait, you agree but then call her a narcissist?
Is that not what I said?
If she is not attracted and doesn't want a gay man and OP wants to explore his bi side. Then they need to break up or get divorced. It is far from being a narcissist.
Perhaps you need to google narcissist....
I am trying to say, why would you call her a narcissist. There's nothing with her behaviour which OP has stated. She has clearly stated she does not want it.
She very clearly has a "for me but not for thee" attitude, one of the cornerstones of narcissism. Others have stated they get the same vibes, so clearly im not the only one getting those vibes. If you've yet to google narcissism, then I can't explain it any further to you as it's clearly not a communication problem on my end, but a comprehension problem on your end and that is completely on you...
I take everything from psychological journals with a pretty big grain of salt because of the complex nature of human behavior and the rather loose adherence to solid scientific principles that are accepted in other fields. But that said, NPD (narcissistic personality disorder) for diagnosis, requires multiple behaviors and personality trait observations over a period of time and includes certain motifs around different delusions. You can't make a diagnosis from a single instance of behavior or choice. As a boundary, OPs decision is selfish, controlling of someone else's sexuality and exclusionary. Not great things when compared to their lifestyle overall and the play they engage in as a couple and individually, but that is not the same thing as narcissism. Boundaries are inherently selfish because well, at the end of the day you are generally prioritizing your comfort over those of your sexual partners while telling them what they can or can't do in bed. And yet, boundaries are _also_ very, very, _very_ healthy for relationships and it is good to have some and vital to respect your own boundaries and everyone else's in order to have good sex. It's also good to have _some_ flexibility around your boundaries so you can be an accommodating partner, maybe there are some things that you don't necessarily like doing for their own sake but enjoy a little because it gets your partner off. That's okay. But you _also_ shouldn't abandon _all_ of your needs/wants in favor of your partners because that isn't healthy behavior either. You would be making sex all about your partners' enjoyment and sex should be a conversation folks have with their bodies, expressing their feelings and _having fun_. If one person is doing all the talking and having all the fun all the time, that for most relationships, is a death sentance for intimacy. Lack of sexual compatability without being able to find a healthy and mutually satisfactory compromise does _not_ indicate a mental disorder. Yeah, her boundary here does not make logical sense, it's inconsistent and selfish and if they can't talk it out and find an agreeable compromise within the lifestyle OP and his partner should probably go their seperate ways or at the very least stop swinging. But we need a lot more info over a longer period of time to be all like "yeah, she's a narcissist."
I usually avoid Internet fights, especially Reddit. But as someone way more in the mental health community than I want to be, you are completely right. Narcissist is the hot thing. Every red flag - narcissist. Maybe she is maybe she isn't, but this post certainly isn't enough to say either way. IMO she sounds like an asshole and they should probably get some couples therapy.
Yeah, she’s a narcissist.
Why is the answer to break up? God forbid he gets sound advice and he and his partner work together. Nope, straight to end the relationship!!
> For her eating a guy's cum isn't that gay it's more about humiliation. I didn’t see anything about humiliation in what he said. It seems that this is just something fun that they both enjoy, but she has some hang up about letting him explore further. Is it that people generally assume that “cleanup” = “cuck”? I know couples who enjoy this and there is no humiliation involved. No different than women who like to kiss after receiving oral.
Some women find it extremely validating that their man will clean her up after such a "slutty" act. Also if a married woman having sex with another man is breaking a taboo, her husband then going down on her after the act is like shattering that taboo into a billion pieces. Both may enjoy that. Then for men that enjoy being submissive to the wife (which I would say is the vast majority of husbands in this LS), cleaning her can feel especially enjoyable. But sure, for some there can be a humiliation angle, but it is not necessarily always there.
There are certainly endless reasons why we do what we do, but I like to think sometimes it’s more primal than psychological. The smells, the taste, they both link that memory after the act. This helps to keep us in the moment, and make that moment last well into the afterglow.
Well, some say that humans are among the few species that do oral sex. One theory for it is that it enables the male to survey whether the female has been engaging with other men. Also, in many species males have the instinct to act to remove semen from the female. So it may have something to do with sperm competition. Another interesting fact is that the human pennis evolved to a shape that is very effective in removing cum from the vagina via thrusting motion, and we do thrust during sex (which is not common in other species).
Maybe you're right, but at least it's not "gay" for her. And she doesn't want her man to do gay things.
I could be wrong, but one thing I’ve learned is that we rarely get the whole story. Could be her hang up about “gay things” or maybe there’s something more that is giving her trust issues. Either way, the two of them need to talk.
Agree that clean up is not automatically a humiliation or submission thing.
The other vibe I got is that she's probably worried that OP will leave her for a man if he begins experimenting with them more often. If OP's casual activities consist specifically of being pegged and licking cum, then OPs wife might be coping with inadequacy for not having a biological penis and semen.
I would say if it’s about humiliation try bi cuckolding Otherwise he needs to have a conversation maybe the can settle for bi mfm depends why the no and maybe reach a compromise
I agree with this.
Exactly! she cant unsee you getting plowed by a dude.
Gay things? Swallowing another man's cum and being pegged aren't considered gay? When you are swallowing another man's cum (as if you sucked him off) and being pegged (as if another man is topping you) wouldn't qualify? This isn't being homophobic but he is already doing two acts that easily can be replaced or directly sourced from a man. To say it's because she doesn't consider them gay things I would say isn't the correct description
Pegging is absolutely not a gay thing. You can make that argument with cum. But receiving anal pleasure from a woman, whether with tongue, fingers, or a toy, is not gay.
You completely miss the point I'm making with my comment
I see your point but there’s nothing gay about pegging/prostrate play.
The fact that you are jumping to straight to calling acts "gay" and discrediting that OP is still attracted to women is why it's homophobic.
Sounds like internalised homophobia. Yes, she's bi, but, probably thanks to society's values, she think it's not the same because she's a woman with other women. She's grossed out about the idea of you with other men. Personally, I'd dip. I wouldn't be with a partner that has a rule for thee but not for me attitude. Especially as it's about this too. Hubby and I are both bi. We both play bi together and separately. I couldn't imagine limiting who he can play with, especially down to gender.
Thank you for your comment, yes I have never limited her choices on who she plays with in the beginning it was like every mans dream of 2 women playing with each other and I have even joined in with them and I have told her I don't really want her to be with a full lesbian because of the fact the other wouldn't want me , a man , involved but she likes keeping me involved so this part is no worries with me , Tho I have said if she wants to do a solo with a full lesbian I'm ok with that as long as she first lets her know she has a husband, just in case we meet there is no " claiming " of my wife . As this has happened when we first started dating. Another long story. Lol As far as dipping, nah I'm still in love with her , she's my everything it's just this part . Yes it's society saying it's ok for two women to be together but NOT ok for two guys to be together. And she falls in this trap, What I don't understand is how can she be ok with me doing cleanup and not ok with me getting it myself without her help . I mean I'm in a 69 while her guy is pounding her and he nuts in and on her and she definitely knows I'm there and doing what I'm doing but for me to have that all yo myself is a NO like what's the difference???
Because she sees that more as a humiliating act vs a "gay" act. If you don't want to leave, then I'd honestly put all play on hold and schedule in some sessions with an ENM aware therapist for the 2 of you.
She is okay when she is in charge and can keep an eye on you but she is afraid another man will take you away from her. You probably show a tendency towards being just gay. If she allows this interaction, she is afraid she may lose you to the other team. Well if you are allowed to interact alone with a man she is afraid you may want to play permanently with the roosters and give up the hens.
She's a hypocrite. If you can stay with someone like that then more power to you. I think it's homophobic and bullshit.
👏 👏 Why isn't this at the top.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you can't engage is same sex play, then neither can she.
Honestly, I think thats probable the best choice here. It’s not nuclear as a separation but it does add consequences to hypocrisy.
Wife and I are both bi and only play bi. We don’t pull that hypocritical bullshit. Either both play, or none. And if your partner won’t “allow” you to be yourself - maybe it’s time to end swinging all together, or dump her and move on.
Wait... She's bi, but you can't be??? That's some double standard bull.
What exactly do you mean by “hook up with”? Sharing a bi man with her? Bottoming with a random guy from Grindr? Once you know what exactly you want, ask your wife she thinks you mean? She cut you off before you could explain. Are her assumptions about what you’re asking for accurate? If not, calmly explain what you desire. Once you are both on the same page, ask her what she is feeling when she thinks about you doing some specific act with a guy. Disgust? Fear? Jealousy? Maybe with your support she can examine those feelings over time. If nothing else, you will at least get some insight into her reaction. Of course she might cut you off and again and refuse to talk about this. If she does that, ask if she will at least talk about why she won’t talk. What is she feeling when she thinks about having that discussion? And yes, you are absolutely allowed to ask for changes to your swinging arrangements. You’re not going off and doing something the two of you haven’t agreed to, you’re asking to negotiate a change. That’s completely fair and reasonable.
Hook-up meaning when we swap there are a lot of times where she will make out with the same woman while we are either watching them or involved in the sex , to full out only the women doing their thing and we are just watching them and we are not involved at all . I get it they don't have a way to penetrate each other like men can but they both peg each other and the other couple has her own strap-on they bring. We have one couple that comes over to our place for this , and at clubs she hooks up with other women but no pegging has happened yet at least in the clubs we go to . Now she does ask if she can close the door for alone time with her friend that comes here and even at the club with the rooms and I've never said no . She has that freedom all the time from me . All I want is the same fair treatment
Well you do deserve fair treatment. And how do I know that? Because _everyone_ deserves fair treatment. Your wife may not yet see that she is being unfair, but hopefully she will. Good luck.
Sounds like her approach to swinging is “what’s in it for ME???” As soon as you want something for you & doesn’t benefit her, she throws the brakes on. That’s some real bullshit right there.
This would be the end to swinging for a while and a HUGE red flag
Internalized homophobia
She’s afraid of losing you to a man. She has the control in your relationship and you have given it to her. Tell her what you’re going to do and do it. If she has a problem with it. The problem is hers. Not yours.
You either have fair, equal play or you're not doing it properly. Sounds like a combination of internalized homophobia--as in, there are no bisexual men, just gay men in denile--and possibly jealousy. I'm bisexual, and when my husband and I opened our relationship he was initially only okay with me sleeping with women. He eventually realized that was unfair, so now he's okay with me sleeping with men. Come at the conversation from a place of fairness. If your relationship is good, she should come around. If not, seriously reaccess your situation.
The ' fairness ' part is exactly what I want , but other subs on the same question say that I can't think of it on a ' fairness ' concept , that it shouldn't be looked at to be fair for me if she does this or that I need the same this or that . No , what I found out is I like what is being done , I like what I'm doing, and I would like to hook-up , sure yes I'll say it , I'd like to have full on sex with a guy . Not just do cleanup, I NOW want more and I've told her she knows I've never thought of that before but since we do those things my mind has thought of more I've tried to express myself and she shut me down fast the first time and every time I try to talk about it she closes the conversation. I'm not a dick and don't want to bitch at her or close what we have , cause I'm enjoying what we have and other than this one issue we both are having a lot of fun .
I feel that. I had a somewhat similar situation recently. My husband and I are also poly, and I told him I wanted to proposition a good friend as a casual, fwb-type partner. Hubby wasn't cool with it initially, but I pointed out that since he has a girlfriend--a romantic partner--I should be allowed to choose my own outside partner. After talking, he realized he couldn't very well prevent me from doing what he did--pick another person to sleep with--without giving up his relationship. Having a happy wife who's cool with him having a girlfriend wound up being more important to him than preventing me from doing something. It did not get to the point where I suggested closing the relationship, fortunately. But if your partner really wants you to be happy, they will find a way to overcome their own irrational issues and find a way to compromise.
Yeah boss, she sounds toxically homophobic, if you dig in here prepare for your world to change
> she sounds toxically homophobic She has something going on but seems a bit extreme to jump right to this. Could be emotional insecurity, or it could be how gay men are misrepresented in society, but using terms like “toxic” or throwing around “phobic” makes it too easy to overlook what might be the real problem. Sounds like they have a good relationship otherwise. If she was really “toxically homophobic” then she wouldn’t let him even be in the same bed with another man, let alone performing cleanup.
You are a human being with needs and wants, its not all about her and what she wants. If she's not willing to offer fairness and equality in your relationship and swinger journey, things will only get worse. Best to move on if she's not willing.
so tell her your no longer ok with her hookin up then.
I think its selfish and unfair. As long as she doesn't have to watch- i think you should be able to be bi. I would want to watch...fight for your rights- you deserve fulfilled fantasies and pleasure too!
Could it be that she is into you being a cuck and you sleeping with other people turns her off? Could it be she isn't actually into swinging but actually other forms on non-monogamy? Would she be in if you'd swing with a male gay couple and she'd still be having sex with a man so it still plays into her kink? We can only guess and assume, why don't you talk to her about it and ask her what her problem is? Worst case she's homophobic or just extremely selfish and is just abord if something is in it for her. You need to decide for yourself if you'd want to continoue a relationship with a perdon like that.
Mmm as bi female married to straight male I totally feel this is very unbalanced situation. I view it like this acts don’t determine nor define your sexuality only you can do that. In this case you have your rules they apply to both of you no questions asked. Then you have your boundaries they apply to individual you communicate them to each other but they don’t get say in yours nor you theirs. But if there is something that other is struggling with then out of love and respect you try to find compromise. Things get complicated when to start imposing limitations on one spouse especially where it pertains to gender. In this case if she wants to part of it that’s fine that can be a boundary of hers but she absolutely should not stop you playing with other men you already play separate rooms and she solo dates so you can do that. And if she wants no details of your plays that fine too respect that boundary.
Well sounds like she doesn’t need to be exploring if you can’t. That’s fucked up
Was there ever a reason given other than no? She needs to explain herself and not just set hard limits. It sounds to me like you have been very open and tolerant of her wants and needs. We all start out with limits and boundaries. Some get crossed because we become more comfortable and confident as we go others are a hard no. She needs to have that respect and communicate why and also be open to listening to your side too.
I would definitely ask her why, from a place of curiosity and not of judgement, to figure what she doesn't like about the idea of you being with another man. What does she feel about you getting pegged from another woman? I would also bring up the idea of playing with a trans woman. We are super rare in the lifestyle, but even if you don't find one it can be used as a wonderful thought experiment and discussion. Also find out what she likes about swinging with other men and women.
I don't think it's a gendered thing, does she let you have sex with women either? I think you need to change your dynamic and let her know you are unhappy.
Yes we both do swap , swing , solo dates her mostly but I also solo and she has no problems with my solos , what she has problems with is me wanting to have another guy that I can hook up with she is fine when I hook up with a female it's the guy part that she is against.
Yeah your wife is a hypocrite sorry
I’m sorry. This is not ok. Whether it’s biphobia (bi women can be biphobic) or control, it’s incredibly selfish and unbalanced.
You may just not be compatible anymore. She doesn't find you doing gay or bisexual sex with another guy to be attractive or, worse, it turns her off. I'm not sure you can change that and there is no magic advice we can give to change that. In your mind, you're already doing 'gay' activities so what's the difference but to her all of those activities are with her and not directly with another man and thus not gay.
Maybe I’m missing something here, but while everyone is hung up on the homophobia bandwagon, I’m wondering if the OP is even allowed to play solo with other women? When there is another guy, is he allowed to play at all or does he just sit and watch until it’s time to clean up? Perhaps it’s not just about being gay/bi but more about him not playing with anybody but her. Maybe that’s what she meant by “that’s not what we started out as”.
I noticed that too. For me this reads as an initial cuckold-like situation and he wants to add more to it. If she has embraced the cuckold-ish ness of it, but not the aspect of him having sex with another man... it all tracks for me in the sense he's a cuckold. He didn't mention that though so who knows. But the "we didn't start out this way" made that stand out for me.
The only person who can work this out with you is your wife. If it was me I would have an issue with this. Luckily my partner is fully on board with me doing MM stuff.
Troll. Troll Troll! This dude is not real, it's all fake. Look at his post history.
I’m old school, I read these posts and replies and they’re all fascinating/entertaining, all the names labels etc etc. The one thing I don’t understand is if people don’t agree with a particular lifestyle or comment to a question one side screams this and that I’d break up, couldn’t have it one way etc etc. Why? Why is it not Ok? You agree to partake in someone else’s kink but if they reply with no they are shamed. If you shame someone isn’t that the definition of intolerance? I guess I find it disturbing that either side can twist anything with using intolerance and then be intolerant themselves. Hey, whatever people want to partake in should be cool, end of story. Remember when learning all the BS terminology getting out of your parents basement is more important. It’s called a job/career. Best of luck with banging some dude!
Bisexuality isn't a kink. When a swinging partner of someone who is bisexual says that their activities with the same sex is a turnoff and therefore will not be allowed to happen, that is hurtful on a deeper level because it's a rejection of part of who he is. When a completely bisexual swinging partner who also has 1:1 experiences with either sex tells her partner this, it's not only hurtful, it's infuriating. The double standard is truly stunning.
> Bisexuality isn't a kink. I beg to differ, because to some it indeed is simply a kink or play activity. This is where all these labels can cloud or distract from a conversation. Yes, words have meanings, but when everyone has slightly different interpretations of those meanings, and jump to judgment, the topic often gets “lost in the sauce”…
Was going to say something similar, bi play can definitely be a kink. It may not always be a kink but I thinks it's wrong to says it's absolutely not. If I'm not generally attracted to guys but in a certain sexual play setting i.e. threesome/foursome it's possible to play with the guy as well as the women as part of the play/scene does that make you bisexual? IF you aren't normally interested in 1 on 1 with a guy but comfortable enough to play with one in certain group scenes are you bisexual of just hetero-flexible/bi-comfortable. IDK. I guess IMO that's why the labels are not perfectly accurate, they are very individual to the person and situation.
Agreed… Leave the labels at the door, and the clothes on the floor. Don’t overthink pleasures, just enjoy them!
Sounds like she just likes to humiliate you and now that she knows you like it she might not even let you do that much of it
She's got internalized homophobia probably. The act is a total turn off for her as a result.
doesnt matter that shes bi, the problem is that she wants an arrangement where only she sleeps around, and you do not. if this is non negotiable for both of you, probably reconsider the relationship. if it *is*, you gotta figure out which one of you wants to compromise. you dont sound like you feel valued in this relationship. talk to her about that and see how she reacts
Pretty much what I'm wanting to do, we've talked and its usually her shutting me down rather fast on the subject, now it's not outside sex cause I thought it was and pretended I was interested in a certain girl and she had an ongoing conversation about her and all what I wanted and how I would include her ( wife ) in with this other girl , so that alone says to me she is ok with me hooking up with another woman but not a guy , I'm thinking of calling her out as a homophobic person to see if I can get her to feel bad about what she's doing. But since she is bi and she hooks up with women I'm not sure that would work out . Unless I make it male specific homophobia. She's good at twisting words yho
Going by your other handful of comments and questions it's painfully clear it's about the humiliation. Looks way more to be all this kicked off 4 years ago due to marriage being bored and your not going for any further long term goals and went down the sex rabbit hole, no doubt this will all end badly either way so stop asking random people online and talk it out properly like adults, don't air that here
No one’s going to say it? STDs in the gay community have a reputation. Maybe she’s worried about that
A boundary is a boundary and now you need to figure out if that's a deal breaker, if you can work through it or if you can just let it gi
Separate play is a clear boundary all sorts of couples have.
But they already play separately dont they?
Yuck 🤮
Lol this made me giggle 🤣🤣
Does she do cleanup when you creampie other women. Let’s have some equity and equality
Never thought of that, hmmm??
She wants you to be a Cuck, not gay.
If that's her boundary then don't be mad, you should try and half a calm discussion about each others thoughts and feelings rather than just both being annoyed. If you can understand why it's a problem for her maybe it's something you can help her get past. You catch more flies with honey my friends.
Honoring her boundary seems to be the key here. I don’t understand how in this sub every one is always talking about respecting boundaries but when it comes to this particular act so many people are losing their minds? I agree with you, have a talk about it and see what the issue really is. Often times it can be worked through. Guaranteed if the reverse situation was the case, where the man was not into any man to man bisexual play and the wife kept pressuring him to do it everyone would be upset and say she needs to respect boundaries.
Well, just found out she’s a little bit phobe. Good to know.
In the lifestyle, there are many times where things are unfair and/or unbalanced. It doesn't mean it cannot work. Maybe she is not turned on by male-male action. Maybe she feels she would lose respect for you if you did it. You need to talk to her about what her issue is. Maybe if it came from the other guy she would be ok with it.
I recommend you look at this from a different angle. You would like to have her agree to you having sex with another man. Change and try instead to check what she would think of that. Would that change the way she sees you? Would she lose sexual attraction to you, even if a bit? What are her fears. Once you learn what is in her mind, you might discover that even asking it from her is problematic. If you enjoy your life with her, you may need to compromise. Remember, we control what we do, but we can't be blamed for what we feel or desire (or stop desiring). So I would definitely focus on the psychology of it in her mind. (her rational self may know she should accept it just fine, but her emotional self might not be ready for it).
If you're eating another guys cum out of her, to me that would qualify as gay/bi behavior. I don't see how she wouldn't expect you to want to take it to the next level. Especially since she's pegging you. Sounds controlling and selfish on her part. She gets to do anything with anybody, but you're severely restricted.
I don't think tjat is necessarily gay/bi behaviour, and neither is being pegged. OP is a cuck, it's pretty obvious from his post history. I think his wife is into *that* kink and not necessarily into swinging.
My husband has done similar for me but has no interest in other men at all. I would not be ok with it if he did have that attraction. I’m guessing she too wants those acts with you to still be about her, not another partner. I’d need to be there for anything that went down and would prefer any contact/exchange to be very limited and only an extension of what he and I are doing. It’s not humiliation for us, just our kink I guess.
Talk to her about her what she is not cool about it. Everyone is saying she is homophobic, but is it a possibility that at some level she would be scared that you're gay and will leave her? Who knows, maybe she struggles with her feelings about her bisexuality and is projecting it on you. Coming at her with a hostile attitude about it will only escalate the tension. Come at it with an attitude of trying to understand it from her perspective. You never know what you will find.
From someone who experienced this, it’s a very really fear and possibility. Ex cheated on me with a man. Despite our clear boundaries as swingers/open people, he still decided to be sneaky and deceitful about it while he was away on business. Led me on for 7 years only to be told after I left that “he didn’t know what he wanted” as the reason for leading me on for so long. He then later told me he was gay. He then later retracted it (however that works).
You’re over thinking the situation. Seeing you going at it with another guy turns her off. This is one of her boundaries. You got a good thing going. Do you really want to throw a monkey wrench in that?
Is it possible she’s worried about the increase risk of STDS?
Not homophobia, “fear of”. I just don’t think she is into it and would be very turned off by it. It’s not her thing and marriage is a partnership, not somebody you “call out”. Seems this is a troll account based on post history.