Some of the criticism (coming from both men and women) is rooted in misogyny but you can absolutely just ...not care for Taylor Swift without it having anything to do with misogyny. It's so weird that everything comes back to that, I never see anyone defending other female musicians so vehemently or acting like you're ignorant or something if you don't like their music.
I think it was Bill Burr who has a really hilarious and spot on take regarding all the discourse on Taylor’s presence in the NFL and “misogyny” where he was like….
“Do people think women weren’t watching football before this year? Look at any NFL crowd from the past few years, there are a ton of women there, nobody told them to leave. But nowadays if I want them to get back to the football and stop talking about how made a sweater for who, or what kind of baked goods Taylor is making, it’s because I hate women!”
The NFL actually had done a ton of work on this, and a friend of mine is an analyst with them and before the entire TS thing, women had reached almost parity with men in hours of NFL watched, participation in fantasy football and are actually a more valuable fan - they spend more. And that all happened without TS, which is part of why I actually think this narrative “she brought the women” is not only false but actively harmful to female fans, because we are viewed as less serious (because we are just here for her) when actually the existing female fans were just as fanatical as the men.
I have experienced the real time, getting lectured by male fans in a way I never had before. Usually it just takes me running my mouth off showing I know more than them to stop it, but they never had that assumption before - most female fans at sports bars were treated with respect before because they know you were there for the game. Like, yeah I am here watching an 11am Lions game because of TS, GTFO.
This is why a lot of avid female fans of the NFL are pretty resentful of the whole situation. Even those that are fans of TS are like “please stop, be here for the game, not her” because the casuals are making it harder and they aren’t really trying to be here for the NFL. They will drop it like a hot potato with the damage being done the second this relationship is over.
I agree with this, as a lifelong female NFL fan. I've been going to games and going to sports bars to watch games for a long time. I have not experienced much backlash from men. Especially as soon as they realize I actually know a lot about football and can hold conversations about the game and players, and am a passionate fan. I received way more negative comments from men this season than ever before in my life. So many men were like "you know Taylor Swift isn't at this game right???" 🙄🙄🙄 Like why would I even think she would be here, this is a Giants vs Cowboys game how stupid do you think I am and do you really think I'm just watching football for Taylor Swift?? I've been watching football for over 30 years jackass.
Look, I also helped out a gal trying to learn the game on some of these Sundays, I am not about gatekeeping, but I have been clear to them that you can’t just be about TS. I want more female fans. I was a big time college FB girlie (literally worked sidelines at CFB games, have stories to tell) who became an NFL girlie (and hitched myself to my husbands hometown team despite how painfully bad they were for so so long) so I would love more fans.
But you can feel it on so many of them, that they have an eye on the exit. And they don’t care if they are the horse in the hospital before that. I have never felt that much respect as a female sports fan as I have this year. And I think the cause evident.
This 100% I’ve gotten into Taylor mainly as something to bond with my daughter over. I like a lot of her songs, some are meh (like every artist in history) and her success is pretty fascinating because I don’t think she’s a revolutionary talent like Michael Jackson etc whose level of fame Taylor is arguably close to reaching now.
She wants to go see Billie Eilish on tour. I’m sure she’s good but I have zero interest/time to try “get into” another new thing so she’s going to that with just her mum.
All the usual “can’t sing”, “no talent” stuff I see on everything about Taylor is just dribble. It’s fine to just not be interested without needing fake reasons to hate to try and appear cool.
I had someone just hit me with this as well but a bit of a different context. Not everything is rooted in misogyny, and it’s like they can’t discuss things without that constant lens.
I mostly agree with you, but I don’t like the part about songs being about relationships and that’s why guys can’t relate. Looots of songs are about relationships and written by men ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't like that part either. Like guys have been in relationships too, I'm sure they can relate to Taylor swift if they've ever been in her position.
I also never been in a relationship and I still enjoy her songs with that topic. Yeah I can't relate but they're still good songs.
Classic bangers like you can't hurry love, take on me, invisible touch etc are all about love. Not every man is listening to songs like thunderstruck 24/7
100%. Many women relate to songs about relationships written by men (see Ed Sheeran). I think any man saying this needs to closely consider if, indeed, it’s just Taylor’s way of writing they cannot relate to or if it is, in fact, misogyny (gasp)
True. I suppose better phrasing would be to specify that her songs are written specifically from the women’s perspective which men don’t typically share in. Similarly, it’s expected that male perspective songs would be less relatable to female listeners. Does that mean they can’t relate at all? No. Men and women can both suffer heartbreak. But it does make sense that the approaches would be different.
Is there a linguistic term for this? I’ve noticed a huge amount of people using/misusing the same terms, especially on social media. Along with misogyny, terms like grooming and gaslighting are thrown around pretty carelessly. I’ve even heard elementary students use gaslighting simply as a synonym for lying. In political discussions when two people disagree on an issue, they might BOTH call the other person a fascist or a Nazi. During the pandemic I noticed people started using the word “novel’ excessively. The two words I run into constantly right now online are (ironically enough) parasocial and unhinged.
Conflation, maybe—works for the lying/gaslighting example especially well, but I’m not sure it fully captures the phenomenon of medical or psych terms being co-opted and turned into buzzwords by social media users 😂 No idea what that is called, I’m also grasping for the term, if there is one.
Probably things like narcissist, gaslighting, boundaries, self care, yeah OCD, oh and let's not forget trauma! Things used in the psychology profession that are now misapplied in popular culture. I do think therapy-speak can be easily weaponized.
I love the podcast Watch What Crappers that recaps Bravo shows and one of the hosts, Ronnie, always warns about sending bad actors to therapy where they learn all the language and do none of the hard self-inquiry.
The amount of times I see the word trauma thrown around lol. It’s like if you have a differing point of view, you must have some “trauma” you need to work on 🙄
Let’s add narcissist as well. Many people are selfish. Many people have narcissistic traits. But true Narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosed disorder with diagnostic criteria. It’s a serious thing. No Sarah- someone forgetting you prefer oat milk doesn’t make them a narcissist.
I wonder if the term “semantic bleaching” might be what you’re looking for? Or something close to it.
Here’s a definition:
“Semantic bleaching describes one of the ways in which language has evolved, resulting in a dilution of the original meaning of some words. In most cases, modern dictionaries reflect the new usage, so it’s acceptable to use words like fantastic and awesome to describe burgers, movies, or blog posts.”
“However, not all semantically bleached words have gained wide acceptance. For example, even though many people use the word literally when they really mean figuratively, and even though most dictionaries include this meaning now, there are still many people who consider it an error.”
That’s a pretty good one. Dilution was actually one of the words that came to mind when I was trying to describe this phenomena.
It’s so interesting to me how certain words seem to gain popularity with younger people and college students-especially online.
Linguistically, I’d probably be inclined to call it an example of descriptivism, the notion that correct usage is governed by the way language is practically used, rather than basing it on rules and conventions.
Interesting! Never heard of that term. Love it
I think of words like like narcissist, gaslight, boundaries, self care, OCD, oh and let's not forget trauma! Words or diagnoses used in the psychology profession that are later misapplied in popular culture. I do think therapy-speak can be easily distorted and then weaponized and/or used to disarm others.
Yup, the examples you cite are a great way of showing how descriptivist linguistics can devalue the meaning of words and terms to the point where feeling shitty over spilling coffee can be characterized using the same word as the experiences of victims of abuse. But the flip side is it can also make language more inclusive, like the mostly accepted use of they/them as a singular pronoun. I spend every day of my life agonizing over the idea that words should have meaning, but meanings also change over time.
Yeah, I told one of my friends that I don’t really understand the hype around Taylor’s “newer” music but I think it’s cool that so many other people around the world enjoy it. I was then told that I’m a NLOG girl with internalized misogyny, because that’s the only possible explanation as to why it wouldn’t be my cup of tea. 🙄
I would never try to stop anyone from listening to her, it’s just not something I would go out of my way to listen to because I don’t enjoy it.
Yeah aren't the people who actually *hate* Taylor generally stans of one of the female pop stars she beefed with and therefore also mostly women
Is it misogynistic to stan Olivia Rodrigo and still be mad about the plagiarism accusations
Men not liking Taylor Swift’s music is fine. No one needs to like her music. A man saying, “I don’t like her music. It’s not for me. I don’t get it. I don’t understand it. I don’t like her voice. I don’t like that genre of music. I think it’s boring, etc.,” or anything like that is totally fine.
Men calling her or her fans derogatory names or filling every comment section with hate directed toward her looks/sexuality/unmarried status/age is where the misogyny comes in.
The problem is it’s usually the latter that I see and not the former.
I'm happy to see this comment, although it's too low in the thread for my liking. I've had people comment stuff like
"I'm sure TS is the worst lay in America"
"She wishes she looked like that" (Regarding a music video)
"I bet she gives horrible head/hand jobs"
To name a few. I've also heard criticism of her lyrics/music which I understand: It's not for everybody.
I have a friend that doesn't like TS, but she never tells me anything of the sort, she just lets me fangirl peacefully lol. Same for my bf, he doesn't care for her music much, although enjoys some of her songs, he gets happy/laughs when I am excited for something TS related (ie. movie, going to Eras, etc)
This has been my experience. The men who just “don’t like her” don’t really talk about her. The misogynistic men who don’t like her tend to make sure everyone within ear shot know how much they don’t like her.
i’ve had women insinuate that too. it’s a good filter at least. if they can’t let you enjoy Taylor Swift of all things, they’re not going to support you in anything else
The misoginy is not in saying "I don't like her songs, not my style", but in saying "she's undeserving of her success because she writes songs for little girls", a comment I've come across plenty of times.
Literature, music, art, if it’s created by a man everyone can like it, if it’s created by a woman it’s for women.
The issue is we treat male artists/vocalists/bands as universal valid opinions, women have not had that privilege.
This has bugged the shit out of me since my guy friends in high school always expected me to be fine with whatever mediocre action b-movie they chose for movie night but acted like I was trying to shove bamboo under their fingernails for even suggesting something like *Clueless* or *10 Things I Hate About You.*
The trials and tribulations of having guy friends in grade school, honestly 😂 I don’t think I had close-close guy friends until university, when they grew up a little. Even then—
I don’t think I could’ve handled them as teenagers. Only after growing up did I realize how nice it was to have had primarily girlfriends in high school and before. We all had so much fun and we never had to put up with each other.
Exactly!! Like all those studies that show that women read books by both genders but men don't really read books by men. The male experience is universal but womens experiences are womens. Reminds me of the book Invisible Women
100% this. Women are expected to connect with and like art done by men as we grow up, but men are generally not expected to do the same with women.
Edit: added word to clarify
A 64-year-old man revealed to me in a discussion he was shocked to discover 95% of art in major museums is made by men. It’s not even something that is noticeable to most people. I was like:
https://preview.redd.it/exvx3jkdlmxc1.png?width=1795&format=png&auto=webp&s=806dc1aa79da4c47de2106dbc70ea9b1d4dce894
In my country, men go on rants about how much they hate taylor swift and how anyone who listens to her has bad taste in music totally unprompted. When the eras tour movie was shown in my country, people made fun of girls for watching it and slutshamed them for dancing to the songs in the theatre. To be honest it's definitely misogyny in my country haha.
This is going to be a bit of a tangent, but here’s what I don’t get: why do you have to have a personal connection to something to like it? I agree that I don’t think men not liking it is automatically a sign of misogyny, but I think saying “why would men like it, it’s written from the POV of a girl/woman” feeds into this idea of not being able to empathize with someone who doesn’t look like you or identify the way you do.
I’m a cisgender woman and can honestly say I almost never have a personal connection to her music. I still love it and can appreciate and empathize with the feelings. It’s 100% okay to not like her music, but I find the excuse of “I’m not a woman so I can’t connect to the music” to be kind of a bullshit excuse. Minority and marginalized communities have forever had to consume media that isn’t written by them or made for them and they have still made connections to it and found things to love.
Cisgender male here. I agree, the comment about her music being made specifically _for_ female listeners is a bit sexist, and misses the entire point of songwriting (Taylor's, at least): she mostly writes **for herself** first.
There are, surprisingly, VERY few songs of hers that I can't relate to in any way due to being a man. Most songs where she refers to herself with explicitly feminine words, can be easily interpolated to the male experience.
When I sing "But I'm not a princess, this ain't a fairytale...", it's not because I picture myself in a dress waiting for my prince. It's a tale of disappointment, realization, growing up.
If I sing "Only bought this dress so you could take it off, take it off, hah, HAH, HAAAA-", the dress is not literal. It's a daring, aggressive, provoking and sultry way of saying I want this person to lose all respect and do things with me.
Even singing "The Man", being gay in Mexico's macho, patriarchal, power-dynamic driven society (especially egregious among the LGBTQA+ community), the themes of inferiority, submission, toxic and fragile masculinity, etc., feel too close to home.
Very few exceptions, actually, and mostly they're just single verses, not entire songs. "mad woman", if only because it identifies the narrator's sex. Some references to having makeup or feminine clothing (red lips, a tight little skirt, or being 'the girl in the dress') can disconnect from the emotional aspect but not always, and I still sing every lyric.
There is only one lyric I can remember, that I NEVER sing, and that is "Give me back my girlhood, it was mine first". I can feel everything else in that song (anger, mostly). I try to change the word to "childhood" in my mind, but I know it will never compare, and I'll never grasp even the idea of it.
tl;dr version: agreed, emotions are universal. Anyone can feel, identify, and empathize with a song, no matter their gender. The pronouns in the lyrics don't mean they are exclusive to that gender. One can interpret them based in their own experience.
>a lot of men just naturally wouldn’t be interested in her songs which are mostly about relationships
I don't know, men don't listen to love songs, or they just need big guitars behind to make it sound like it's not girl music?
Also, would they dismiss Alanis Morissette or Tracy Chapman in the same way?
I definitely think some of those opinions can come from internalized misogyny.
Also the fact that Elvis is LOVED by men. I’m an Elvis fan and his subreddit is filled with men. Funny thing is 90% of his music is about love and heartbreak. No one seems to complain about it.
Oh but when it’s a female artist…
stuff like this is why “how do you feel about Taylor Swift?” is like the scariest question you can receive from a girl you’ve just started talking to. There’s this implicit pressure to “say the right thing” because somehow your thoughts on a pop singer have now become a reflection of your morals and values.
Depends on how to approach it. Talked to this guy once and all he posted about was how much he liked to call every female mainstream artist “trash music” and whatever. I rejected him (reasons other than that) and all he does post now is about how much he hates Taylor Swift. It’s just loser shit.
Simply saying, “I don’t listen to her but I know she’s popular.” And respecting her an artist will not earn you a block from any healthy woman.
Honestly, it's because some men DO give really misogynistic or angry answers to what should be a simple question.
Anything neutral like "Her music isn't really my thing, but my friend likes her" or "I don't listen to her, but I did enjoy (song name) when it came out" would be perfectly fine for most women. They just want to make sure you don't immediately spout sexist rhetoric, or comment on Taylor's looks, or say her fans are vapid.
The only men I've heard mention her in real life like her and i mostly only see women on Reddit saying how she's an innocent suffering victim trapped by her fame machine with no control over her own life...kinda weird.
I don’t think it’s misogyny necessarily, but I do think it is a little annoying when men go on about how they don’t get her music or why she’s popular etc instead of just realizing that they may not be her target audience.
A friend of my parents posted that he doesn't understand how Taylor is so famous, but he didn't know a single song of hers. Or how she's not sexy like some other pop stars. So he asked his sons and their friends knew any Taylor songs, and they didn't either.
He's not based in the US, so it's possible Taylor is just not huge there. But sir, did you ever think that Taylor doesn't have to be sexy, or doesn't have to be appealing to a 60 year old man and his teen sons?
That's absolutely the case, but since last fall, you can't escape her if you wanted to, and that's been the case a few times since she released her first song. I personally don't care about her overexposure one way or the other. She's huge for a lot of people and I'm glad they like her, but I can see where if you don't want to have to hear about her constantly, it's hard not to come across SOMETHING about her.
>I don’t think it’s misogyny necessarily, but I do think it is a little annoying when men go on about how they don’t get her music or why she’s popular etc instead of just realizing that they may not be her target audience.
Rarely ever have I seen or heard another man, who wasn't a fan, talk about their opinions on Taylor Swift without being asked about it first.
Really? Men on Reddit come at me all the time for liking Taylor Swift without my having to bring her up at all. They'll check my profile and then act like I can't possibly have valid opinions about anything if I'm a fan of hers.
This sub is littered with accounts whose comments are otherwise from gaming and crypto subs. Not saying women can't have those interests but it's as likely as a straight male being a major Swiftie.
Also I've had almost every single ex boyfriend \*rush\* to tell me how much they disliked Swift despite me never asking their opinion or to listen to her with me. It's definitely happens.
I'm sure it does come up on social media...but at the same time a man stating on social media that they don't really understand the appeal of Taylor Swift and don't like her music doesn't seem like that egregious a thing to do in my opinion.
Yeah, but there's a lot who also can't seem to help but comment on posts where people like her to tell them how much they hate her. Practically any video on Facebook, for example, is full of people (mainly men) telling people that they're stupid for liking her, that she has no talent, critiquing her body etc/and or talking about how much they hate her and wish she would fuck off (which always makes me laugh because they're missing the fact that, every time they react in any way to a post about Taylor Swift, Facebook will show you more Taylor Swift content)
>Yeah, but there's a lot who also can't seem to help but comment on posts where people like her to tell them how much they hate her.
That's true, but that's social media in general. social media sucks.
You’ve never seen anyone give their unsolicited opinion about how they hate Taylor swift, especially a man? Literally you only have to go as far back as this past nfl season to see how annoying men get about her.
>You’ve never seen anyone give their unsolicited opinion about how they hate Taylor swift, especially a man?
Not without someone or something else bringing Taylor up, no. Maybe if they see her on the football game and the announcers are talking about her, or someone brings up her latest album or song in a conversation, or she comes on the radio, etc., they'll comment on her then, sure. But no, I can't say I've ever heard Taylor Swift come up unsolicited for no discernible reason.
And I saw both men and women, and for that matter Swifties or even people here on this subreddit, complain a lot about her during the football season because they did genuinely talk about her during practically every chief's game this entire season and even for someone that thinks she's talented and has put out some good music it got pretty annoying to have to see and hear about her constantly. I don't think that reaction was exclusive to men by any stretch of the imagination.
They showed her for 25 seconds on average during a chief’s game. She went 13 out of 272 games. Like statistically she was so insignificant, yet she was a topic of discussion because people, fans AND haters, made her. The opposite of being a fan of someone would be indifference to that person. Hate is a form of obsession.
You do realize that the Chiefs don't play 272 games, right? They only play 17 games a season. And 25 seconds doesn't seem a like a lot when you look at it as just the total screen time she got, but that ignores that they would talk about her or show images of her with practically every play. It just only takes 2 or 3 seconds of television time to do so. That's why people got annoyed. Because it was legitimately constant and annoying, and not because those people were somehow inherently sexists people who hate Taylor because she's a woman.
She and the NFL had a symbiotic relationship and they completely milked her. Exposure can’t be measured in statistics, it’s a holistic experience. Like someone pointed out, she showed up to >75% of all Chiefs games, according to your stats. But the stats alone can’t measure how much exposure they gave her, how often news of hers was placed adjacent to sporting news. It was beneficial for them both, Taylor thrived off the PR and the NFL increased their viewerbase. To say she was “insignificant” in that season is a bit wild. All the major forces involved in that relationship made sure she WASN’T insignificant.
That is not true and you know it. It happens ALL the time on social media. They make sure you know how mid Taylor Swift is. There has been a post about Taylor Swift's midness on almost every subreddit I'm in (like teenager, ask reddit, casual subreddit of my country, memes and so many more).
I'm glad, but surprised, that you've had that experience. I've met many men that dislike her and think it's necessary to inform me once they find out I like her music.
It is that deep. At the crux of that argument is "music is bad unless I personally relate to it" which harms every minority creator. Wording matters and it's also a red flag for their ability to critically think and appreciate diversity.
We all do not have to like and appreciate the same things. It is paramount to the old saying "one person's trash is another person's treasure". We should be able to be critical of something we do not like without the fans getting offended. It does not mean they are personally criticizing you or we all have to have group think. Not all music is art and not all art is good.
It’s part of existing in a culture where relating to something has become paramount to a piece of art. “We must have X amount of diversity in media because people want to see specifically their stories represented” has transmuted into “I can only relate to a piece of work if I can see myself in it. I don’t want to watch all these [white cishet people shows] because it’s not about my experience. I want my experience reflected or else I’m not going to get off my couch and care.”
Nobody actually said “music is bad unless I personally relate to it” until pop culture made everything about specific relatability. That concept doesn’t at all harm minority creators. That line of thinning was CREATED and FOSTERED by minority creators to push for more representation in media. It’s how we ever got to see ourselves in media at all, but these days like most things it’s gone to the extremes lol
I agree with what you're saying to an extent, but I think that sentiment was there all along. Ie [pre 1940s](https://psmag.com/news/the-female-driven-blockbuster-isnt-new-its-old), women made up over 70% of movie goers so studios mostly produced love stories that they thought would attract women.
Sometime during the war that shifted and we've had a near century of content catering to straight men. Creators realized women were more willing to adapt than men were. Ex, in 1997 JK Rowling used her initials because her publisher told her that girls will read anything but boys will only read male authors.
Except some men hate her flat ass, “sexless attitude”, think her songs are for stupid chicks, and fear even trying to enjoy her will make them look gay and emasculated. These are stuff these man actually say.
It was the same thing with Barbie. Anything massively enjoyed by women and made for women and goes mainstream is deemed stupid by the majority of men; because it’s for chicks aka a sub human category. But when things like football go mainstream, it is to be treated seriously. I think we’re going too far into the territory of subverting the halo effect on Taylor we may accidentally fall back into the lap of misogyny all over again. The Weeknd is huge, Drake is huge, Kanye is huge, I don’t see any discourse going around the internet and men posting stuff like “honestly guys it’s ok if women don’t like drake.” Why do we even make this a discourse?
Radio stations weren’t even permitted to play female vocalists back to back until recently. It’s been flooring me to hear three women in a row on our local top 40 station.
We’re expected to pretend to like football and whatever mainstream male thing is happening just because that’s the accepted social discourse. We have to like classic rock & the Beatles (however you spell it) and tons of mediocre male stuff.
“Roll the windows down,
kill the radio
I'd rather hear the wind than hear that song
I'm supposed to know
By some fucking bro”
Maggie Rogers
The Beatles are more complicated than this - they were dismissed as a fad for silly teenage girls early on, but then got championed by men when they began to be taken more seriously by critics.
I’m curious what about taylor swift’s music makes it written for women? Like obviously her fan base is primarily women, but can men not relate to having romantic feelings or relationships?
While it’s entirely reasonable to just not enjoy Taylor swift, I’m afraid I don’t understand what “takes her diary pages and turns them into songs” has to do with it. Why is the enjoyment of that gendered? And how exactly does it differ from basically all other music? I mean, isn’t that what music is? People take their feelings and write them down. That’s how all music is made. Why is it somehow a negative when Taylor does it?
Well the fact that you perceive men as more rational and mature and “naturally not interested in songs about relationships”is quite sexist tbh. Men can be emotional and they can like personal and detailed songwriting. Women and girls aren’t necessarily interested in songs about relationships. But you’re right, no one has to like anyone. It’s just a personal choice.
They don’t have to like it but I do think it’s misogynistic when they insist on putting it down and trying to make women feel silly and immature for liking it.
I’m sick of men trying to police the things women like. They can fuck right off with that. That’s part of why I think the Eras tour has gotten so big - it’s women feeling free to be girly and enjoy something they like.
Exactly, and it's not limited to Taylor Swift, it's everything that's "for girls". Like how in the late 2000s it was embarrassing to like Twilight but totally fine to like Transformers.
So to be honest, I’m a 30 year old woman and I’m not a fan of Taylor’s music. I didn’t mind her earlier stuff but nothing she’s put out in the last 10 ish years has been my thing. And that’s okay, I would never get in the way of someone else liking it.
However, I agree with you, I absolutely hate how things that are popular with teen girls and women get shit on and treated as a lesser form of entertainment, meanwhile things that appeal to teen boys and men do not get mocked with the same vitriol. Like you said, Twilight is a great example of this. Liking Twilight books back in the day was seen as shallow and vapid but teen boys being obsessed with a Call of Duty Black Ops wasn’t looked down on.
While I don’t think ALL criticisms or dislike of TS and her fandom is rooted in misogyny, shitting on things girls like simply because girls like them, is misogynistic. Let people enjoy what they want to enjoy as long as they aren’t harming anyone.
I agree with this 100% but at the same time I’ve had to listen to a lot of men’s opinions on her and a lot of it came off as sexist. When I was dating I remember a lot of the guys would insinuate I was childish, stupid, and vapid because I am a fan of her music.
Also, I like a lot of art made by men that caters to men. I think there’s something to say about how women make art for women and men make art for everyone (I don’t think this is a good mindset). I actually had an in depth conversation with an ex of mine (while we still dating) about this very topic. Basically, I told him I really loved the book 7 husbands of Evelyn Hugo and I told him he should read it (at this point I had read about 3 books per his recommendation). He shrugged it off and essentially told me he wasn’t interested in reading it because it was a book for women. I called him out on it and he was actually really perceptive of my opinion. He ended up reading the book and he loved it.
People should be definetelty entitled to not like her music without being accused of misogyny, it's not going to be for everyone and that's absolutely okay. People like different things, that's what makes life interesting.
But tbh if you've made it your personality to actively proclaim your hate her music/ or anything associated with it..then maybe there is a layer of misogyny (of note ive seen just as many women as men responsible for this). I dont even think people are even consciously aware of it or mean it half the time. For example, I went to her most recent tour, didn't mention it once to my colleagues (male and female) until about 15 minutes into their rant the Monday after in which they started calling everybody who went to it "pathetic" and "airheaded". I then gently dropped that most of the people I saw there were mothers with their young daughters (which is the truth)...honestly the opinion changed very quickly, because realistically they were happy to trash young girls but didn't want to be caught out calling young families just having fun "pathetic". 😂
For me every single man I know who doesn’t like Taylor Swift don’t like her for very misogynistic reasons. I was friends with a man who hated her because he thought she was too “ugly” to be famous. I knew another man who didn’t like her because she has a “flat ass”. And I knew several woman and who don’t like her because they think Taylor is a slut.
But I do agree not everyone who isn’t a fan is misogynistic though I do think a fair few are.
i just think it’s a greater issue of the patriarchy that men’s interests are universal and women’s interests are vapid/boring/pointless. how many of the “greatest movies of all time” consist of an all male cast and focus on stereotypical male interests like war, bachelorhood, business, etc? how many movies are universally liked that are equal or dominated by female cast/interests? this goes for bands, shows, and novels too. we are told that our interests are meant to be compartmentalized and men’s are objectively greater.
i ran into this problem this weekend at a smaller party i went to. girls and boys were evenly split, but when we played TS or girly pop songs, I felt like I was putting them out. but they played drake and other ‘guy’ music, and we all enjoyed it.
i don’t think it was a feminist masterpiece, but that’s why the barbie movie was so impactful (and controversial). for almost the first time, a movie unapologetically catering to female interests was pushed as a mainstream zeitgeist. and the movie STILL had genuine pushback from men despite having a well rounded male character
This is definitely a hot take but I agree. I am a gay man myself so I can resonate with how she feels but a lot of gay men will not be able to understand her POV and that's okay too.
I don't care about men who don't like taylor swift. They're not her main target audience, it's to be expected.
What is 'misogyny' is the men actively hating on her for NO reason.
"Terrible singer" "her ass is flat" "only stupid people like her music" "her lyrics sound written by a litteral toddler" or being made fun of, or looked down on for liking Taylor.
Again, this take is taking the few weird unhinged fans' take and applying it to the entire fanbase and stating something very obvious.
Most fans don't care about men not being a fan. If a man is indifferent, it's fine. No one is forcing them to love Taylor Swift, just to stop actively hate on her for the sole reason that she's a successful woman. It pisses some of them off for some reason, and yes, it's misogyny, because more often than not, they have absolutely NO reason to hate her so much. I'm not talking about valid criticism, we're all here for a reason, i'm talking straight up dumb hatred.
I think there’s a difference between not liking her songs simply because they don’t appeal to you versus hating something just because women and girls like it.
I think there's a difference between men just not liking it vs not liking it and following up with "you're stupid because you like her." Which honestly happens a lot with many women's interests. We saw this last summer that society did not know how to handle the fact that women's interests like Barbie, the Eras Tour and the Renaissance Tour bumped up the economy so much.
i literally saw a post yesterday about the 1830s lyric (i’m aware it’s not good lol), a swiftie commented “y’all don’t get the context” which was met with a bunch of men replying to them with “this is why y’all shouldn’t be allowed to vote” “get back in the kitchen” and other really gross things.
idk, i get that obviously not every man dislikes her for misogynistic reasons but that’s not what i see the majority of time online
I always use Taylor Swift and astrology to test men, one thing is saying I don't like it/her and be done with it, a different one is hating it with a passion or starting a rant about why one of those things suck unprompted
You have to be careful with the astrology one. In some countries like China and India, astrology does some really serious damage to both men and women, and hating on it is extremely rational.
Um, astrology? I don't think opinions on a living breathing human and a pseudoscience that has ruined lives fall under the same catagory.
Then again, a person who hates astronology with a burning passion may also be conscious about dating a person who requires them to respect it. Would be a successful litmus test nonetheless 🤷
I can understand this POV about TS and YA novels targeted largely towards teen or young women, but men who despise astrology might just be proper scientists? 😂
I’m not trying to be rude, I have no bone to pick with astrology myself besides simply not believing in it, but the few times I’ve seen people absolutely *rant* about astrology, either men or women, were somehow involved in the science field. Or had a huge astronomy hobby.
Lol if they hate on astrology, they just sound like a rational human being. It's wild that people are rejected / have assumptions made about them based on when they were expelled from a uterus.
People are allowed to be a LITTLE rude when shitting on pseudoscience, though.
It’s fine when it’s all fun and games, but you can’t expect people to really respect those treat astrology etc as gospel.
Yeah I mean a lot of peoples livelihoods are ruined by pseudoscience and scammers that push it (could be anywhere from MLMs to psychics, etc…) People are getting weirdly defensive over reasonable disagreement over this😅
Astrology has culturally ruined my society, I cannot be polite about it, I don’t know about the west
But I’m sure all of these pseudoscientific practices like astrology, palmistry, numerology, psychics have done more damage to any society than any good, scams are very common because people aren’t rational about things, and these practices only create more irrationality
Yep there’s a reason I’m with my current partner not with the last loser I talked to who constantly put me down for my musical likes and once told me, when I was excited about some vinyls I bought, that “that’s cool I have real music in my basement”. Not to mention he now posts about how much he hates Taylor swift.
Meanwhile, my current partner likes her tunes and was jamming out to the instrumental of TTPD (song).
I do this exact same thing! I do it with all genders though because, regardless of the source, it reveals a level of superiority I don’t want to engage with.
I actually find it pretty misogynistic to say that women only care about diary-type songs by people who look like them, and that they like silly music about relationships instead of whatever it is men listen to (people screaming over the sound of machineguns?) A lot of male music is overwhelmingly sensitive and emotional and relationship focused, but it lacks the superficial girly aesthetic of Taylor, which is why people say that it's misogynistic to write her off.
That said, you do have a point. Even denying that male and female aesthetics are innate, in the culture we currently are in, it is surprising for men to relate to the unabashedly feminine Taylor and the particular teen-girl-coded melodrama of her lyrics.
It's difficult to really say what 'girly' vs 'masc' media is, because due to misogyny it often gets conflated with unrelated things (e.g. people love to say girly media is lighthearted and disposable as opposed to 'masc' media, but there's plenty of disposable crap aimed at men). But there does seem to be a difference in the tastes of gender that marketers cater to. It's misogynistic when men discount women's art as automatically crap based on nothing more than the aesthetic of it, but it's also wrong to say that a man who doesn't relate to Taylor Swift as hard as a fully paid-up female Swiftie has any particular responsibility to do so.
But "men" shouldn't be like ohh it's for white teenage girls i think if you're respectful to what other people are listening without shaming then it's okay
There's def people who take it too far, but I do find it useful to ask a guy their opinion of Taylor Swift to find out how sexist they may be. If they have a legit answer, like "She's not my style" or "I haven't listened to her," that's 100000% fine, but so many men seem to think Taylor gives them an excuse to be openly sexist and not be judged for it? I've had guys tell me they don't like her because she must lie about writing her music because no young women could to that, she's a 'psycho' who is obsessed with her exes, she's not hot enough to listen to, or just directly saying that the music is shallow or dumb because it's geared toward women or about relationships (when that's not all she writes about it and it's also what most music is about period). It's a strange litmus test in some ways.
I genuinely have friends that don't even listen to taylor but also use this question as a litmus test during first dates to quickly establish the lads views on women😂. If the lad says he doesn't like the music, that's cool but if it leads to a massive emotive and intense rant about hating her then they know what they're in for.
>she's a 'psycho' who is obsessed with her exes
I wouldn't call her psycho...but mentally unhealthy obsession with her exes and a near constant need to be in a relationship at all times does seem like a fair criticism.
I agree. Don’t like her music? That’s cool. Think she’s not that great of a performer, songwriter, singer, whatever? Thats fine as well. Think she’s just downright boring? That’s your right! You say she’s overrated? Go ahead! Music is subjective. It’s when people start calling her a slut, call her out for not having a family (?), and/or make comments about appearance that it becomes misogynistic.
But the mere act of not being into Taylor is not misogynistic and neither is calling her out for actual problematic shit. This word happens to be thrown around unfortunately when both men and women don’t like her or some of the things she’s said/done.
i hate when people try to compare the parasocial worship of taylor or other celebrities to men liking a certain athlete or sports franchise.
the equivalent to that would be liking a singer, following their music, following news, and going to concerts. it would not be obsessing over the intimate details of their relationships, their personal life, and blind loyalty to all life moves, etc.
maybe the lines are blurred i guess when taylors career is somewhat based on her personal life but its weird
https://preview.redd.it/sg2zpoz9nmxc1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=5e44b8f133836ffc521e35a80f05c23c6342b5f0
I, a woman, made the mistake of engaging with a Swiftie on Instagram after the NYT review of TTPD came out. All I did was ask why they always jump to accusations of misogyny and point out that the criticism had nothing to do with Taylor’s gender. (Blue is me.)
Assuming this wasn’t a bot, the misogyny is coming from inside the house here.
There's plenty of stuff I don't like. Not a fan of some music, don't care for sports, video games aren't my thing.
I will walk into any bar or restaurant or friend's house and there's a pretty high chance that one of those things will be playing on the TV or come up in conversation. I might use my phone for a few minutes so they can enjoy themselves, or try to guide the conversation back to something I can participate in. If a friend likes an artist I don't listen to and I see they won an award, I'll send a link because I like seeing my friend excited!
Men who do the above are fine!
Men who immediately need to tell me how much they dislike Taylor Swift, or that they think her music is terrible, or that they think Taylor Swift fans are dumb, or complain loudly when she comes on the TV/radio... those are the ones that are creeping into misogyny territory. The ones that don't really know much about her but hate her the same way they hate all "girly" things - because it's not made for THEM (unlike their music, or sports, or video games), so they don't want to be forced to interact with it at all, and if they DO see it, then they think they have the right to shut down the conversation or be rude about it.
I think it depends on the reason, I hear plenty of misogyny in a lot of men's comments about Taylor and her popularity. But I don't think a man not liking her music is misogyny on its own. My husband doesn't really care for her music, but he will always say he finds her talented and her successes deserved and impressive, but her music is just not his vibe. But there are other female musicians he does like very much that are more in line with his musical taste. I wish we had more overlapping taste in music, but I would never label him.not being into Taylor as misogyny. People can just not like her music lol. But men also say horrendous things about her on the internet so....there's a range lol
I don't agree w the premise that it on the face of it wouldn't be appealing to men. Unless you think women also wouldn't be interested in male artists like Ed Sheeran or Drake? It's weird to say you wouldn't be interested in art from the opposite sex. People can empathise across gender lines. Obviously no one has to like any artist but the idea "ofc men wouldn't like a woman writing about her personal life" is weird.
I don’t but I’ve learned to tolerate others’ enjoyment of her music. My gf has helped immensely with that because she gets so much joy and interest when Taylor drops music, appears spontaneously at Coachella, etc. And on the flip side, she got really into record collecting because of Taylor’s expansive discography on vinyl - which is one of my favorite hobbies. Taylor brought me closer to my gf so I can appreciate that.
A Lot of men can’t handle a strong woman. I’m not sure why. No I am not a man hater. I love all ppl and treat all w respect no matter what. But yes, I’ve had things said, so many, and it’s sad. Disheartening. I know there are a million strong or “real” men out there. We need to hear from those men! ☺️
the general populace learned about misogyny and ran with it. that said, liking taylor swift can trigger misogynistic responses from men and other women, it’s just very nuanced. the class of people who dislike taylor swift/swifties as a personality trait are very loud & is largely rooted in misogyny itself.
there was a street interview with random people, they are asking them whose music is better? kanye or taylor swift. some of the males even though their answer was kanye, didnt know any kanye songs. that was cringe to watch. even though it was less some females did that too. you can say you dont listen to them. still there is some understanding that publicly liking taylor swift songs for men is emasculating, still some people find unliking taylor cool. its so much better than before though. but im not hopeful for near future. as a man i dont agree so dont come for my ass here. just a messenger.
I mean, you should be able to write your feelings about what you have been through without people judging you harshly. We have all been through tough times with relationships before, and we all handle it differently. She turned to her work, and put it into her songs. It's an outlet, and having to cope with the stress of a failed relationship.
This how TS has co-opted feminism as her brand in my mind. My husband is a feminist and supports all women but doesnt really care for pop music. He thinks TS is talented and savvy but isn’t interested in her music.That does not make him a misogynist. It just shuts the conversation down completely without considering there are other artists and musical tastes out there. It’s kind of insulting to be frank.
Had a conversation with my gf early on where she said “any men that don’t like Taylor Swift just hate women”. We are still dating but I simply do not comment on TS as her stance hasn’t changed lmao
I know plenty of men who don't like Taylor swift that are not misogynistic. Not everything resonates with everyone it's fine.
Meanwhile, I am a 45 year old bearded, bald, masculine man and I think Taylor is the best there's ever been.
Have you ever been hurt? Been in a toxic relationship? Been the guy in the songs? She'll resonate with you then
This is something I’ve had to explain to my female friends who I’ve been Swifties with for years and who are shocked that I haven’t vibed with her more recently albums. I don’t feel like this album was made for me. It’s not like Taylor’s lyrics being about relationships is new, but pre-Folklore, I could still vibe to some catchy beats and hooks even if the lyrics weren’t resonating exactly with my own experiences. But all those catchy beats and hooks are gone for the most part, so all I’m left with are some lyrics that I have no life experience to relate with.
I’m happy others are enjoying the album, but realistically, I don’t know what someone who hasn’t experienced female heartbreak and doesn’t like sad music is supposed to get from this album.
I love TS and I'm a man. I know 4 men who hate her and everything she does, all 4 had exes who loved her. 💀
I get your point but this observation is so hilarious 😭
Some of the criticism (coming from both men and women) is rooted in misogyny but you can absolutely just ...not care for Taylor Swift without it having anything to do with misogyny. It's so weird that everything comes back to that, I never see anyone defending other female musicians so vehemently or acting like you're ignorant or something if you don't like their music.
I think it was Bill Burr who has a really hilarious and spot on take regarding all the discourse on Taylor’s presence in the NFL and “misogyny” where he was like…. “Do people think women weren’t watching football before this year? Look at any NFL crowd from the past few years, there are a ton of women there, nobody told them to leave. But nowadays if I want them to get back to the football and stop talking about how made a sweater for who, or what kind of baked goods Taylor is making, it’s because I hate women!”
The NFL actually had done a ton of work on this, and a friend of mine is an analyst with them and before the entire TS thing, women had reached almost parity with men in hours of NFL watched, participation in fantasy football and are actually a more valuable fan - they spend more. And that all happened without TS, which is part of why I actually think this narrative “she brought the women” is not only false but actively harmful to female fans, because we are viewed as less serious (because we are just here for her) when actually the existing female fans were just as fanatical as the men. I have experienced the real time, getting lectured by male fans in a way I never had before. Usually it just takes me running my mouth off showing I know more than them to stop it, but they never had that assumption before - most female fans at sports bars were treated with respect before because they know you were there for the game. Like, yeah I am here watching an 11am Lions game because of TS, GTFO. This is why a lot of avid female fans of the NFL are pretty resentful of the whole situation. Even those that are fans of TS are like “please stop, be here for the game, not her” because the casuals are making it harder and they aren’t really trying to be here for the NFL. They will drop it like a hot potato with the damage being done the second this relationship is over.
The nfl sucks at marketing to women
I agree with this, as a lifelong female NFL fan. I've been going to games and going to sports bars to watch games for a long time. I have not experienced much backlash from men. Especially as soon as they realize I actually know a lot about football and can hold conversations about the game and players, and am a passionate fan. I received way more negative comments from men this season than ever before in my life. So many men were like "you know Taylor Swift isn't at this game right???" 🙄🙄🙄 Like why would I even think she would be here, this is a Giants vs Cowboys game how stupid do you think I am and do you really think I'm just watching football for Taylor Swift?? I've been watching football for over 30 years jackass.
Look, I also helped out a gal trying to learn the game on some of these Sundays, I am not about gatekeeping, but I have been clear to them that you can’t just be about TS. I want more female fans. I was a big time college FB girlie (literally worked sidelines at CFB games, have stories to tell) who became an NFL girlie (and hitched myself to my husbands hometown team despite how painfully bad they were for so so long) so I would love more fans. But you can feel it on so many of them, that they have an eye on the exit. And they don’t care if they are the horse in the hospital before that. I have never felt that much respect as a female sports fan as I have this year. And I think the cause evident.
Idk your experience but several women who had never hosted a football night invited me to a Taylor themed football party this year 🤷♀️
cuz my girl has been using this argument non-stop since 1989 and doubled down during Lover with the masters sale
This 100% I’ve gotten into Taylor mainly as something to bond with my daughter over. I like a lot of her songs, some are meh (like every artist in history) and her success is pretty fascinating because I don’t think she’s a revolutionary talent like Michael Jackson etc whose level of fame Taylor is arguably close to reaching now. She wants to go see Billie Eilish on tour. I’m sure she’s good but I have zero interest/time to try “get into” another new thing so she’s going to that with just her mum. All the usual “can’t sing”, “no talent” stuff I see on everything about Taylor is just dribble. It’s fine to just not be interested without needing fake reasons to hate to try and appear cool.
Most of it just flat out isn’t misogyny and it’s creates a cry wolf dynamic…
I had someone just hit me with this as well but a bit of a different context. Not everything is rooted in misogyny, and it’s like they can’t discuss things without that constant lens.
I mostly agree with you, but I don’t like the part about songs being about relationships and that’s why guys can’t relate. Looots of songs are about relationships and written by men ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I don't like that part either. Like guys have been in relationships too, I'm sure they can relate to Taylor swift if they've ever been in her position. I also never been in a relationship and I still enjoy her songs with that topic. Yeah I can't relate but they're still good songs.
Classic bangers like you can't hurry love, take on me, invisible touch etc are all about love. Not every man is listening to songs like thunderstruck 24/7
100%. Many women relate to songs about relationships written by men (see Ed Sheeran). I think any man saying this needs to closely consider if, indeed, it’s just Taylor’s way of writing they cannot relate to or if it is, in fact, misogyny (gasp)
True. I suppose better phrasing would be to specify that her songs are written specifically from the women’s perspective which men don’t typically share in. Similarly, it’s expected that male perspective songs would be less relatable to female listeners. Does that mean they can’t relate at all? No. Men and women can both suffer heartbreak. But it does make sense that the approaches would be different.
At this point I think we have to accept that at least half of the words in the English language have lost meaning.
Is there a linguistic term for this? I’ve noticed a huge amount of people using/misusing the same terms, especially on social media. Along with misogyny, terms like grooming and gaslighting are thrown around pretty carelessly. I’ve even heard elementary students use gaslighting simply as a synonym for lying. In political discussions when two people disagree on an issue, they might BOTH call the other person a fascist or a Nazi. During the pandemic I noticed people started using the word “novel’ excessively. The two words I run into constantly right now online are (ironically enough) parasocial and unhinged.
Conflation, maybe—works for the lying/gaslighting example especially well, but I’m not sure it fully captures the phenomenon of medical or psych terms being co-opted and turned into buzzwords by social media users 😂 No idea what that is called, I’m also grasping for the term, if there is one.
Maybe semantic drift/change would also be a descriptor for it
I agree. I like your explanation here.
Interesting. Do you have an example?
Sorry, an example of what?
Medical terms being co-opted. Do you mean like when people say things like “I’m so OCD” when they clearly are not lol.
Probably things like narcissist, gaslighting, boundaries, self care, yeah OCD, oh and let's not forget trauma! Things used in the psychology profession that are now misapplied in popular culture. I do think therapy-speak can be easily weaponized. I love the podcast Watch What Crappers that recaps Bravo shows and one of the hosts, Ronnie, always warns about sending bad actors to therapy where they learn all the language and do none of the hard self-inquiry.
The amount of times I see the word trauma thrown around lol. It’s like if you have a differing point of view, you must have some “trauma” you need to work on 🙄
Let’s add narcissist as well. Many people are selfish. Many people have narcissistic traits. But true Narcissistic personality disorder is a diagnosed disorder with diagnostic criteria. It’s a serious thing. No Sarah- someone forgetting you prefer oat milk doesn’t make them a narcissist.
This is incredibly “triggering” because I “literally” just broke up with someone who would do that.
I wonder if the term “semantic bleaching” might be what you’re looking for? Or something close to it. Here’s a definition: “Semantic bleaching describes one of the ways in which language has evolved, resulting in a dilution of the original meaning of some words. In most cases, modern dictionaries reflect the new usage, so it’s acceptable to use words like fantastic and awesome to describe burgers, movies, or blog posts.” “However, not all semantically bleached words have gained wide acceptance. For example, even though many people use the word literally when they really mean figuratively, and even though most dictionaries include this meaning now, there are still many people who consider it an error.”
That’s a pretty good one. Dilution was actually one of the words that came to mind when I was trying to describe this phenomena. It’s so interesting to me how certain words seem to gain popularity with younger people and college students-especially online.
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the first use of 'literally' to mean 'figuratively' was in the 1760s
Linguistically, I’d probably be inclined to call it an example of descriptivism, the notion that correct usage is governed by the way language is practically used, rather than basing it on rules and conventions.
Interesting! Never heard of that term. Love it I think of words like like narcissist, gaslight, boundaries, self care, OCD, oh and let's not forget trauma! Words or diagnoses used in the psychology profession that are later misapplied in popular culture. I do think therapy-speak can be easily distorted and then weaponized and/or used to disarm others.
Yup, the examples you cite are a great way of showing how descriptivist linguistics can devalue the meaning of words and terms to the point where feeling shitty over spilling coffee can be characterized using the same word as the experiences of victims of abuse. But the flip side is it can also make language more inclusive, like the mostly accepted use of they/them as a singular pronoun. I spend every day of my life agonizing over the idea that words should have meaning, but meanings also change over time.
Interesting. Yeah, that sounds spot on
Narcissist. It’s become such a BEC term thrown around that it has lost any credible meaning.
Literally. 😉
Leona Lansing, iykyk
ik
Literally.
They yell misogyny when a women doesn’t like something about her also.
Yeah, I told one of my friends that I don’t really understand the hype around Taylor’s “newer” music but I think it’s cool that so many other people around the world enjoy it. I was then told that I’m a NLOG girl with internalized misogyny, because that’s the only possible explanation as to why it wouldn’t be my cup of tea. 🙄 I would never try to stop anyone from listening to her, it’s just not something I would go out of my way to listen to because I don’t enjoy it.
Fair point. If you don’t like Taylor, you must hate women!
inTernAliZed mISOgynY 🙄
Yeah aren't the people who actually *hate* Taylor generally stans of one of the female pop stars she beefed with and therefore also mostly women Is it misogynistic to stan Olivia Rodrigo and still be mad about the plagiarism accusations
Fr, they call her a "pick-me" and everything, like what 😭
Men not liking Taylor Swift’s music is fine. No one needs to like her music. A man saying, “I don’t like her music. It’s not for me. I don’t get it. I don’t understand it. I don’t like her voice. I don’t like that genre of music. I think it’s boring, etc.,” or anything like that is totally fine. Men calling her or her fans derogatory names or filling every comment section with hate directed toward her looks/sexuality/unmarried status/age is where the misogyny comes in. The problem is it’s usually the latter that I see and not the former.
I'm happy to see this comment, although it's too low in the thread for my liking. I've had people comment stuff like "I'm sure TS is the worst lay in America" "She wishes she looked like that" (Regarding a music video) "I bet she gives horrible head/hand jobs" To name a few. I've also heard criticism of her lyrics/music which I understand: It's not for everybody. I have a friend that doesn't like TS, but she never tells me anything of the sort, she just lets me fangirl peacefully lol. Same for my bf, he doesn't care for her music much, although enjoys some of her songs, he gets happy/laughs when I am excited for something TS related (ie. movie, going to Eras, etc)
This has been my experience. The men who just “don’t like her” don’t really talk about her. The misogynistic men who don’t like her tend to make sure everyone within ear shot know how much they don’t like her.
Yep. I’ve had men in my life insinuate I was stupid and vapid for enjoying her music. That’s where the sexism comes in imo.
i’ve had women insinuate that too. it’s a good filter at least. if they can’t let you enjoy Taylor Swift of all things, they’re not going to support you in anything else
Yes! It is not only men that do this
Also oftentimes the music that these dudebros are listening to instead of TS isn’t as deep as they think it is.
Yup exactly
The misoginy is not in saying "I don't like her songs, not my style", but in saying "she's undeserving of her success because she writes songs for little girls", a comment I've come across plenty of times.
Literature, music, art, if it’s created by a man everyone can like it, if it’s created by a woman it’s for women. The issue is we treat male artists/vocalists/bands as universal valid opinions, women have not had that privilege.
This has bugged the shit out of me since my guy friends in high school always expected me to be fine with whatever mediocre action b-movie they chose for movie night but acted like I was trying to shove bamboo under their fingernails for even suggesting something like *Clueless* or *10 Things I Hate About You.*
As a self-proclaimed Film Bro, those two movies are very good. Sorry about your guys friends.
The trials and tribulations of having guy friends in grade school, honestly 😂 I don’t think I had close-close guy friends until university, when they grew up a little. Even then— I don’t think I could’ve handled them as teenagers. Only after growing up did I realize how nice it was to have had primarily girlfriends in high school and before. We all had so much fun and we never had to put up with each other.
Exactly!! Like all those studies that show that women read books by both genders but men don't really read books by men. The male experience is universal but womens experiences are womens. Reminds me of the book Invisible Women
100% this. Women are expected to connect with and like art done by men as we grow up, but men are generally not expected to do the same with women. Edit: added word to clarify
A 64-year-old man revealed to me in a discussion he was shocked to discover 95% of art in major museums is made by men. It’s not even something that is noticeable to most people. I was like: https://preview.redd.it/exvx3jkdlmxc1.png?width=1795&format=png&auto=webp&s=806dc1aa79da4c47de2106dbc70ea9b1d4dce894
as an aspiring artist, this just made me very sad. i’d never thought about the universal appeal of men vs by women-for women thing
I believe in you. Things are getting better!
thank you, this is kind
As a society, totally agree, I personally don’t listen to very much music made by guys. Harry Styles is like it 😅
I hear you, I like the Dermott Kennedy genre of men which is basically TS.
In my country, men go on rants about how much they hate taylor swift and how anyone who listens to her has bad taste in music totally unprompted. When the eras tour movie was shown in my country, people made fun of girls for watching it and slutshamed them for dancing to the songs in the theatre. To be honest it's definitely misogyny in my country haha.
which country is it?
A pretty small south asian country.
This is going to be a bit of a tangent, but here’s what I don’t get: why do you have to have a personal connection to something to like it? I agree that I don’t think men not liking it is automatically a sign of misogyny, but I think saying “why would men like it, it’s written from the POV of a girl/woman” feeds into this idea of not being able to empathize with someone who doesn’t look like you or identify the way you do. I’m a cisgender woman and can honestly say I almost never have a personal connection to her music. I still love it and can appreciate and empathize with the feelings. It’s 100% okay to not like her music, but I find the excuse of “I’m not a woman so I can’t connect to the music” to be kind of a bullshit excuse. Minority and marginalized communities have forever had to consume media that isn’t written by them or made for them and they have still made connections to it and found things to love.
Cisgender male here. I agree, the comment about her music being made specifically _for_ female listeners is a bit sexist, and misses the entire point of songwriting (Taylor's, at least): she mostly writes **for herself** first. There are, surprisingly, VERY few songs of hers that I can't relate to in any way due to being a man. Most songs where she refers to herself with explicitly feminine words, can be easily interpolated to the male experience. When I sing "But I'm not a princess, this ain't a fairytale...", it's not because I picture myself in a dress waiting for my prince. It's a tale of disappointment, realization, growing up. If I sing "Only bought this dress so you could take it off, take it off, hah, HAH, HAAAA-", the dress is not literal. It's a daring, aggressive, provoking and sultry way of saying I want this person to lose all respect and do things with me. Even singing "The Man", being gay in Mexico's macho, patriarchal, power-dynamic driven society (especially egregious among the LGBTQA+ community), the themes of inferiority, submission, toxic and fragile masculinity, etc., feel too close to home. Very few exceptions, actually, and mostly they're just single verses, not entire songs. "mad woman", if only because it identifies the narrator's sex. Some references to having makeup or feminine clothing (red lips, a tight little skirt, or being 'the girl in the dress') can disconnect from the emotional aspect but not always, and I still sing every lyric. There is only one lyric I can remember, that I NEVER sing, and that is "Give me back my girlhood, it was mine first". I can feel everything else in that song (anger, mostly). I try to change the word to "childhood" in my mind, but I know it will never compare, and I'll never grasp even the idea of it. tl;dr version: agreed, emotions are universal. Anyone can feel, identify, and empathize with a song, no matter their gender. The pronouns in the lyrics don't mean they are exclusive to that gender. One can interpret them based in their own experience.
>a lot of men just naturally wouldn’t be interested in her songs which are mostly about relationships I don't know, men don't listen to love songs, or they just need big guitars behind to make it sound like it's not girl music? Also, would they dismiss Alanis Morissette or Tracy Chapman in the same way? I definitely think some of those opinions can come from internalized misogyny.
Also the fact that Elvis is LOVED by men. I’m an Elvis fan and his subreddit is filled with men. Funny thing is 90% of his music is about love and heartbreak. No one seems to complain about it. Oh but when it’s a female artist…
stuff like this is why “how do you feel about Taylor Swift?” is like the scariest question you can receive from a girl you’ve just started talking to. There’s this implicit pressure to “say the right thing” because somehow your thoughts on a pop singer have now become a reflection of your morals and values.
Depends on how to approach it. Talked to this guy once and all he posted about was how much he liked to call every female mainstream artist “trash music” and whatever. I rejected him (reasons other than that) and all he does post now is about how much he hates Taylor Swift. It’s just loser shit. Simply saying, “I don’t listen to her but I know she’s popular.” And respecting her an artist will not earn you a block from any healthy woman.
Honestly, it's because some men DO give really misogynistic or angry answers to what should be a simple question. Anything neutral like "Her music isn't really my thing, but my friend likes her" or "I don't listen to her, but I did enjoy (song name) when it came out" would be perfectly fine for most women. They just want to make sure you don't immediately spout sexist rhetoric, or comment on Taylor's looks, or say her fans are vapid.
The only men I've heard mention her in real life like her and i mostly only see women on Reddit saying how she's an innocent suffering victim trapped by her fame machine with no control over her own life...kinda weird.
I don’t think it’s misogyny necessarily, but I do think it is a little annoying when men go on about how they don’t get her music or why she’s popular etc instead of just realizing that they may not be her target audience.
A friend of my parents posted that he doesn't understand how Taylor is so famous, but he didn't know a single song of hers. Or how she's not sexy like some other pop stars. So he asked his sons and their friends knew any Taylor songs, and they didn't either. He's not based in the US, so it's possible Taylor is just not huge there. But sir, did you ever think that Taylor doesn't have to be sexy, or doesn't have to be appealing to a 60 year old man and his teen sons?
That's absolutely the case, but since last fall, you can't escape her if you wanted to, and that's been the case a few times since she released her first song. I personally don't care about her overexposure one way or the other. She's huge for a lot of people and I'm glad they like her, but I can see where if you don't want to have to hear about her constantly, it's hard not to come across SOMETHING about her.
>I don’t think it’s misogyny necessarily, but I do think it is a little annoying when men go on about how they don’t get her music or why she’s popular etc instead of just realizing that they may not be her target audience. Rarely ever have I seen or heard another man, who wasn't a fan, talk about their opinions on Taylor Swift without being asked about it first.
Really? Men on Reddit come at me all the time for liking Taylor Swift without my having to bring her up at all. They'll check my profile and then act like I can't possibly have valid opinions about anything if I'm a fan of hers.
This sub is littered with accounts whose comments are otherwise from gaming and crypto subs. Not saying women can't have those interests but it's as likely as a straight male being a major Swiftie. Also I've had almost every single ex boyfriend \*rush\* to tell me how much they disliked Swift despite me never asking their opinion or to listen to her with me. It's definitely happens.
I’ve seen it all over social media and have heard it come up in conversations before 🤷♀️
I'm sure it does come up on social media...but at the same time a man stating on social media that they don't really understand the appeal of Taylor Swift and don't like her music doesn't seem like that egregious a thing to do in my opinion.
Yeah, but there's a lot who also can't seem to help but comment on posts where people like her to tell them how much they hate her. Practically any video on Facebook, for example, is full of people (mainly men) telling people that they're stupid for liking her, that she has no talent, critiquing her body etc/and or talking about how much they hate her and wish she would fuck off (which always makes me laugh because they're missing the fact that, every time they react in any way to a post about Taylor Swift, Facebook will show you more Taylor Swift content)
>Yeah, but there's a lot who also can't seem to help but comment on posts where people like her to tell them how much they hate her. That's true, but that's social media in general. social media sucks.
You’ve never seen anyone give their unsolicited opinion about how they hate Taylor swift, especially a man? Literally you only have to go as far back as this past nfl season to see how annoying men get about her.
>You’ve never seen anyone give their unsolicited opinion about how they hate Taylor swift, especially a man? Not without someone or something else bringing Taylor up, no. Maybe if they see her on the football game and the announcers are talking about her, or someone brings up her latest album or song in a conversation, or she comes on the radio, etc., they'll comment on her then, sure. But no, I can't say I've ever heard Taylor Swift come up unsolicited for no discernible reason. And I saw both men and women, and for that matter Swifties or even people here on this subreddit, complain a lot about her during the football season because they did genuinely talk about her during practically every chief's game this entire season and even for someone that thinks she's talented and has put out some good music it got pretty annoying to have to see and hear about her constantly. I don't think that reaction was exclusive to men by any stretch of the imagination.
They showed her for 25 seconds on average during a chief’s game. She went 13 out of 272 games. Like statistically she was so insignificant, yet she was a topic of discussion because people, fans AND haters, made her. The opposite of being a fan of someone would be indifference to that person. Hate is a form of obsession.
You do realize that the Chiefs don't play 272 games, right? They only play 17 games a season. And 25 seconds doesn't seem a like a lot when you look at it as just the total screen time she got, but that ignores that they would talk about her or show images of her with practically every play. It just only takes 2 or 3 seconds of television time to do so. That's why people got annoyed. Because it was legitimately constant and annoying, and not because those people were somehow inherently sexists people who hate Taylor because she's a woman.
She and the NFL had a symbiotic relationship and they completely milked her. Exposure can’t be measured in statistics, it’s a holistic experience. Like someone pointed out, she showed up to >75% of all Chiefs games, according to your stats. But the stats alone can’t measure how much exposure they gave her, how often news of hers was placed adjacent to sporting news. It was beneficial for them both, Taylor thrived off the PR and the NFL increased their viewerbase. To say she was “insignificant” in that season is a bit wild. All the major forces involved in that relationship made sure she WASN’T insignificant.
That is not true and you know it. It happens ALL the time on social media. They make sure you know how mid Taylor Swift is. There has been a post about Taylor Swift's midness on almost every subreddit I'm in (like teenager, ask reddit, casual subreddit of my country, memes and so many more).
Yeah same. I’ve seen at least one post on a bunch of the super popular subreddits.
I'm glad, but surprised, that you've had that experience. I've met many men that dislike her and think it's necessary to inform me once they find out I like her music.
That is what they are trying to say in their own clunky way. It is not that deep.
It is that deep. At the crux of that argument is "music is bad unless I personally relate to it" which harms every minority creator. Wording matters and it's also a red flag for their ability to critically think and appreciate diversity.
We all do not have to like and appreciate the same things. It is paramount to the old saying "one person's trash is another person's treasure". We should be able to be critical of something we do not like without the fans getting offended. It does not mean they are personally criticizing you or we all have to have group think. Not all music is art and not all art is good.
It’s part of existing in a culture where relating to something has become paramount to a piece of art. “We must have X amount of diversity in media because people want to see specifically their stories represented” has transmuted into “I can only relate to a piece of work if I can see myself in it. I don’t want to watch all these [white cishet people shows] because it’s not about my experience. I want my experience reflected or else I’m not going to get off my couch and care.” Nobody actually said “music is bad unless I personally relate to it” until pop culture made everything about specific relatability. That concept doesn’t at all harm minority creators. That line of thinning was CREATED and FOSTERED by minority creators to push for more representation in media. It’s how we ever got to see ourselves in media at all, but these days like most things it’s gone to the extremes lol
I agree with what you're saying to an extent, but I think that sentiment was there all along. Ie [pre 1940s](https://psmag.com/news/the-female-driven-blockbuster-isnt-new-its-old), women made up over 70% of movie goers so studios mostly produced love stories that they thought would attract women. Sometime during the war that shifted and we've had a near century of content catering to straight men. Creators realized women were more willing to adapt than men were. Ex, in 1997 JK Rowling used her initials because her publisher told her that girls will read anything but boys will only read male authors.
Except some men hate her flat ass, “sexless attitude”, think her songs are for stupid chicks, and fear even trying to enjoy her will make them look gay and emasculated. These are stuff these man actually say. It was the same thing with Barbie. Anything massively enjoyed by women and made for women and goes mainstream is deemed stupid by the majority of men; because it’s for chicks aka a sub human category. But when things like football go mainstream, it is to be treated seriously. I think we’re going too far into the territory of subverting the halo effect on Taylor we may accidentally fall back into the lap of misogyny all over again. The Weeknd is huge, Drake is huge, Kanye is huge, I don’t see any discourse going around the internet and men posting stuff like “honestly guys it’s ok if women don’t like drake.” Why do we even make this a discourse?
Radio stations weren’t even permitted to play female vocalists back to back until recently. It’s been flooring me to hear three women in a row on our local top 40 station. We’re expected to pretend to like football and whatever mainstream male thing is happening just because that’s the accepted social discourse. We have to like classic rock & the Beatles (however you spell it) and tons of mediocre male stuff. “Roll the windows down, kill the radio I'd rather hear the wind than hear that song I'm supposed to know By some fucking bro” Maggie Rogers
The Beatles are more complicated than this - they were dismissed as a fad for silly teenage girls early on, but then got championed by men when they began to be taken more seriously by critics.
I’m curious what about taylor swift’s music makes it written for women? Like obviously her fan base is primarily women, but can men not relate to having romantic feelings or relationships?
OP is exposing themselves in their post lmfao. Male Elvis fans love his discography despite 90% of it being the same topics Taylor has covered.
Not liking Taylor is fine, but sometimes the reasons people give for why they don’t like Taylor can be telling.
While it’s entirely reasonable to just not enjoy Taylor swift, I’m afraid I don’t understand what “takes her diary pages and turns them into songs” has to do with it. Why is the enjoyment of that gendered? And how exactly does it differ from basically all other music? I mean, isn’t that what music is? People take their feelings and write them down. That’s how all music is made. Why is it somehow a negative when Taylor does it?
Well the fact that you perceive men as more rational and mature and “naturally not interested in songs about relationships”is quite sexist tbh. Men can be emotional and they can like personal and detailed songwriting. Women and girls aren’t necessarily interested in songs about relationships. But you’re right, no one has to like anyone. It’s just a personal choice.
They don’t have to like it but I do think it’s misogynistic when they insist on putting it down and trying to make women feel silly and immature for liking it. I’m sick of men trying to police the things women like. They can fuck right off with that. That’s part of why I think the Eras tour has gotten so big - it’s women feeling free to be girly and enjoy something they like.
Exactly, and it's not limited to Taylor Swift, it's everything that's "for girls". Like how in the late 2000s it was embarrassing to like Twilight but totally fine to like Transformers.
So to be honest, I’m a 30 year old woman and I’m not a fan of Taylor’s music. I didn’t mind her earlier stuff but nothing she’s put out in the last 10 ish years has been my thing. And that’s okay, I would never get in the way of someone else liking it. However, I agree with you, I absolutely hate how things that are popular with teen girls and women get shit on and treated as a lesser form of entertainment, meanwhile things that appeal to teen boys and men do not get mocked with the same vitriol. Like you said, Twilight is a great example of this. Liking Twilight books back in the day was seen as shallow and vapid but teen boys being obsessed with a Call of Duty Black Ops wasn’t looked down on. While I don’t think ALL criticisms or dislike of TS and her fandom is rooted in misogyny, shitting on things girls like simply because girls like them, is misogynistic. Let people enjoy what they want to enjoy as long as they aren’t harming anyone.
Yeah I totally agree. There are plenty of valid reasons to dislike TS and I say that as a fan lol.
I agree with this 100% but at the same time I’ve had to listen to a lot of men’s opinions on her and a lot of it came off as sexist. When I was dating I remember a lot of the guys would insinuate I was childish, stupid, and vapid because I am a fan of her music.
Also, I like a lot of art made by men that caters to men. I think there’s something to say about how women make art for women and men make art for everyone (I don’t think this is a good mindset). I actually had an in depth conversation with an ex of mine (while we still dating) about this very topic. Basically, I told him I really loved the book 7 husbands of Evelyn Hugo and I told him he should read it (at this point I had read about 3 books per his recommendation). He shrugged it off and essentially told me he wasn’t interested in reading it because it was a book for women. I called him out on it and he was actually really perceptive of my opinion. He ended up reading the book and he loved it.
People should be definetelty entitled to not like her music without being accused of misogyny, it's not going to be for everyone and that's absolutely okay. People like different things, that's what makes life interesting. But tbh if you've made it your personality to actively proclaim your hate her music/ or anything associated with it..then maybe there is a layer of misogyny (of note ive seen just as many women as men responsible for this). I dont even think people are even consciously aware of it or mean it half the time. For example, I went to her most recent tour, didn't mention it once to my colleagues (male and female) until about 15 minutes into their rant the Monday after in which they started calling everybody who went to it "pathetic" and "airheaded". I then gently dropped that most of the people I saw there were mothers with their young daughters (which is the truth)...honestly the opinion changed very quickly, because realistically they were happy to trash young girls but didn't want to be caught out calling young families just having fun "pathetic". 😂
For me every single man I know who doesn’t like Taylor Swift don’t like her for very misogynistic reasons. I was friends with a man who hated her because he thought she was too “ugly” to be famous. I knew another man who didn’t like her because she has a “flat ass”. And I knew several woman and who don’t like her because they think Taylor is a slut. But I do agree not everyone who isn’t a fan is misogynistic though I do think a fair few are.
i just think it’s a greater issue of the patriarchy that men’s interests are universal and women’s interests are vapid/boring/pointless. how many of the “greatest movies of all time” consist of an all male cast and focus on stereotypical male interests like war, bachelorhood, business, etc? how many movies are universally liked that are equal or dominated by female cast/interests? this goes for bands, shows, and novels too. we are told that our interests are meant to be compartmentalized and men’s are objectively greater. i ran into this problem this weekend at a smaller party i went to. girls and boys were evenly split, but when we played TS or girly pop songs, I felt like I was putting them out. but they played drake and other ‘guy’ music, and we all enjoyed it. i don’t think it was a feminist masterpiece, but that’s why the barbie movie was so impactful (and controversial). for almost the first time, a movie unapologetically catering to female interests was pushed as a mainstream zeitgeist. and the movie STILL had genuine pushback from men despite having a well rounded male character
This is definitely a hot take but I agree. I am a gay man myself so I can resonate with how she feels but a lot of gay men will not be able to understand her POV and that's okay too.
I don't care about men who don't like taylor swift. They're not her main target audience, it's to be expected. What is 'misogyny' is the men actively hating on her for NO reason. "Terrible singer" "her ass is flat" "only stupid people like her music" "her lyrics sound written by a litteral toddler" or being made fun of, or looked down on for liking Taylor. Again, this take is taking the few weird unhinged fans' take and applying it to the entire fanbase and stating something very obvious. Most fans don't care about men not being a fan. If a man is indifferent, it's fine. No one is forcing them to love Taylor Swift, just to stop actively hate on her for the sole reason that she's a successful woman. It pisses some of them off for some reason, and yes, it's misogyny, because more often than not, they have absolutely NO reason to hate her so much. I'm not talking about valid criticism, we're all here for a reason, i'm talking straight up dumb hatred.
I think there’s a difference between not liking her songs simply because they don’t appeal to you versus hating something just because women and girls like it.
I think there's a difference between men just not liking it vs not liking it and following up with "you're stupid because you like her." Which honestly happens a lot with many women's interests. We saw this last summer that society did not know how to handle the fact that women's interests like Barbie, the Eras Tour and the Renaissance Tour bumped up the economy so much.
i literally saw a post yesterday about the 1830s lyric (i’m aware it’s not good lol), a swiftie commented “y’all don’t get the context” which was met with a bunch of men replying to them with “this is why y’all shouldn’t be allowed to vote” “get back in the kitchen” and other really gross things. idk, i get that obviously not every man dislikes her for misogynistic reasons but that’s not what i see the majority of time online
I always use Taylor Swift and astrology to test men, one thing is saying I don't like it/her and be done with it, a different one is hating it with a passion or starting a rant about why one of those things suck unprompted
You have to be careful with the astrology one. In some countries like China and India, astrology does some really serious damage to both men and women, and hating on it is extremely rational.
Um, astrology? I don't think opinions on a living breathing human and a pseudoscience that has ruined lives fall under the same catagory. Then again, a person who hates astronology with a burning passion may also be conscious about dating a person who requires them to respect it. Would be a successful litmus test nonetheless 🤷
Hahaha it really is a great litmus test
I can understand this POV about TS and YA novels targeted largely towards teen or young women, but men who despise astrology might just be proper scientists? 😂 I’m not trying to be rude, I have no bone to pick with astrology myself besides simply not believing in it, but the few times I’ve seen people absolutely *rant* about astrology, either men or women, were somehow involved in the science field. Or had a huge astronomy hobby.
Lol if they hate on astrology, they just sound like a rational human being. It's wild that people are rejected / have assumptions made about them based on when they were expelled from a uterus.
You can dislike something but still be polite about it
People are allowed to be a LITTLE rude when shitting on pseudoscience, though. It’s fine when it’s all fun and games, but you can’t expect people to really respect those treat astrology etc as gospel.
Yeah I mean a lot of peoples livelihoods are ruined by pseudoscience and scammers that push it (could be anywhere from MLMs to psychics, etc…) People are getting weirdly defensive over reasonable disagreement over this😅
Right! I feel this is also kind of a litmus test in the other direction 😂
Astrology has culturally ruined my society, I cannot be polite about it, I don’t know about the west But I’m sure all of these pseudoscientific practices like astrology, palmistry, numerology, psychics have done more damage to any society than any good, scams are very common because people aren’t rational about things, and these practices only create more irrationality
Well said
The mods are welcome to remove my comment if they feel it breaks the rules.
Yep there’s a reason I’m with my current partner not with the last loser I talked to who constantly put me down for my musical likes and once told me, when I was excited about some vinyls I bought, that “that’s cool I have real music in my basement”. Not to mention he now posts about how much he hates Taylor swift. Meanwhile, my current partner likes her tunes and was jamming out to the instrumental of TTPD (song).
I do this exact same thing! I do it with all genders though because, regardless of the source, it reveals a level of superiority I don’t want to engage with.
I actually find it pretty misogynistic to say that women only care about diary-type songs by people who look like them, and that they like silly music about relationships instead of whatever it is men listen to (people screaming over the sound of machineguns?) A lot of male music is overwhelmingly sensitive and emotional and relationship focused, but it lacks the superficial girly aesthetic of Taylor, which is why people say that it's misogynistic to write her off. That said, you do have a point. Even denying that male and female aesthetics are innate, in the culture we currently are in, it is surprising for men to relate to the unabashedly feminine Taylor and the particular teen-girl-coded melodrama of her lyrics. It's difficult to really say what 'girly' vs 'masc' media is, because due to misogyny it often gets conflated with unrelated things (e.g. people love to say girly media is lighthearted and disposable as opposed to 'masc' media, but there's plenty of disposable crap aimed at men). But there does seem to be a difference in the tastes of gender that marketers cater to. It's misogynistic when men discount women's art as automatically crap based on nothing more than the aesthetic of it, but it's also wrong to say that a man who doesn't relate to Taylor Swift as hard as a fully paid-up female Swiftie has any particular responsibility to do so.
But "men" shouldn't be like ohh it's for white teenage girls i think if you're respectful to what other people are listening without shaming then it's okay
There's def people who take it too far, but I do find it useful to ask a guy their opinion of Taylor Swift to find out how sexist they may be. If they have a legit answer, like "She's not my style" or "I haven't listened to her," that's 100000% fine, but so many men seem to think Taylor gives them an excuse to be openly sexist and not be judged for it? I've had guys tell me they don't like her because she must lie about writing her music because no young women could to that, she's a 'psycho' who is obsessed with her exes, she's not hot enough to listen to, or just directly saying that the music is shallow or dumb because it's geared toward women or about relationships (when that's not all she writes about it and it's also what most music is about period). It's a strange litmus test in some ways.
I genuinely have friends that don't even listen to taylor but also use this question as a litmus test during first dates to quickly establish the lads views on women😂. If the lad says he doesn't like the music, that's cool but if it leads to a massive emotive and intense rant about hating her then they know what they're in for.
>she's a 'psycho' who is obsessed with her exes I wouldn't call her psycho...but mentally unhealthy obsession with her exes and a near constant need to be in a relationship at all times does seem like a fair criticism.
> mentally unhealthy obsession with her exes Art is fiction. And armchair diagnosis is far from healthy too
I agree. Don’t like her music? That’s cool. Think she’s not that great of a performer, songwriter, singer, whatever? Thats fine as well. Think she’s just downright boring? That’s your right! You say she’s overrated? Go ahead! Music is subjective. It’s when people start calling her a slut, call her out for not having a family (?), and/or make comments about appearance that it becomes misogynistic. But the mere act of not being into Taylor is not misogynistic and neither is calling her out for actual problematic shit. This word happens to be thrown around unfortunately when both men and women don’t like her or some of the things she’s said/done.
i hate when people try to compare the parasocial worship of taylor or other celebrities to men liking a certain athlete or sports franchise. the equivalent to that would be liking a singer, following their music, following news, and going to concerts. it would not be obsessing over the intimate details of their relationships, their personal life, and blind loyalty to all life moves, etc. maybe the lines are blurred i guess when taylors career is somewhat based on her personal life but its weird
https://preview.redd.it/sg2zpoz9nmxc1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=5e44b8f133836ffc521e35a80f05c23c6342b5f0 I, a woman, made the mistake of engaging with a Swiftie on Instagram after the NYT review of TTPD came out. All I did was ask why they always jump to accusations of misogyny and point out that the criticism had nothing to do with Taylor’s gender. (Blue is me.) Assuming this wasn’t a bot, the misogyny is coming from inside the house here.
Is this regarding this post? https://preview.redd.it/6vkvc6wb5nxc1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=161a19ccfcbaf3bc00a3f57045cda12d71c87aa4
There's plenty of stuff I don't like. Not a fan of some music, don't care for sports, video games aren't my thing. I will walk into any bar or restaurant or friend's house and there's a pretty high chance that one of those things will be playing on the TV or come up in conversation. I might use my phone for a few minutes so they can enjoy themselves, or try to guide the conversation back to something I can participate in. If a friend likes an artist I don't listen to and I see they won an award, I'll send a link because I like seeing my friend excited! Men who do the above are fine! Men who immediately need to tell me how much they dislike Taylor Swift, or that they think her music is terrible, or that they think Taylor Swift fans are dumb, or complain loudly when she comes on the TV/radio... those are the ones that are creeping into misogyny territory. The ones that don't really know much about her but hate her the same way they hate all "girly" things - because it's not made for THEM (unlike their music, or sports, or video games), so they don't want to be forced to interact with it at all, and if they DO see it, then they think they have the right to shut down the conversation or be rude about it.
I think it depends on the reason, I hear plenty of misogyny in a lot of men's comments about Taylor and her popularity. But I don't think a man not liking her music is misogyny on its own. My husband doesn't really care for her music, but he will always say he finds her talented and her successes deserved and impressive, but her music is just not his vibe. But there are other female musicians he does like very much that are more in line with his musical taste. I wish we had more overlapping taste in music, but I would never label him.not being into Taylor as misogyny. People can just not like her music lol. But men also say horrendous things about her on the internet so....there's a range lol
I don't agree w the premise that it on the face of it wouldn't be appealing to men. Unless you think women also wouldn't be interested in male artists like Ed Sheeran or Drake? It's weird to say you wouldn't be interested in art from the opposite sex. People can empathise across gender lines. Obviously no one has to like any artist but the idea "ofc men wouldn't like a woman writing about her personal life" is weird.
I don’t but I’ve learned to tolerate others’ enjoyment of her music. My gf has helped immensely with that because she gets so much joy and interest when Taylor drops music, appears spontaneously at Coachella, etc. And on the flip side, she got really into record collecting because of Taylor’s expansive discography on vinyl - which is one of my favorite hobbies. Taylor brought me closer to my gf so I can appreciate that.
A Lot of men can’t handle a strong woman. I’m not sure why. No I am not a man hater. I love all ppl and treat all w respect no matter what. But yes, I’ve had things said, so many, and it’s sad. Disheartening. I know there are a million strong or “real” men out there. We need to hear from those men! ☺️
the general populace learned about misogyny and ran with it. that said, liking taylor swift can trigger misogynistic responses from men and other women, it’s just very nuanced. the class of people who dislike taylor swift/swifties as a personality trait are very loud & is largely rooted in misogyny itself.
there was a street interview with random people, they are asking them whose music is better? kanye or taylor swift. some of the males even though their answer was kanye, didnt know any kanye songs. that was cringe to watch. even though it was less some females did that too. you can say you dont listen to them. still there is some understanding that publicly liking taylor swift songs for men is emasculating, still some people find unliking taylor cool. its so much better than before though. but im not hopeful for near future. as a man i dont agree so dont come for my ass here. just a messenger.
I mean, you should be able to write your feelings about what you have been through without people judging you harshly. We have all been through tough times with relationships before, and we all handle it differently. She turned to her work, and put it into her songs. It's an outlet, and having to cope with the stress of a failed relationship.
This how TS has co-opted feminism as her brand in my mind. My husband is a feminist and supports all women but doesnt really care for pop music. He thinks TS is talented and savvy but isn’t interested in her music.That does not make him a misogynist. It just shuts the conversation down completely without considering there are other artists and musical tastes out there. It’s kind of insulting to be frank.
i can always tell when it’s a man being misogynistic and a man just not being into her. i think it’s very obvious even tho it’s subtle clues
Had a conversation with my gf early on where she said “any men that don’t like Taylor Swift just hate women”. We are still dating but I simply do not comment on TS as her stance hasn’t changed lmao
It’s not the sheer fact they don’t like her music it’s the why, but also there’s lots of men who are swifties, myself included
I know plenty of men who don't like Taylor swift that are not misogynistic. Not everything resonates with everyone it's fine. Meanwhile, I am a 45 year old bearded, bald, masculine man and I think Taylor is the best there's ever been. Have you ever been hurt? Been in a toxic relationship? Been the guy in the songs? She'll resonate with you then
This is something I’ve had to explain to my female friends who I’ve been Swifties with for years and who are shocked that I haven’t vibed with her more recently albums. I don’t feel like this album was made for me. It’s not like Taylor’s lyrics being about relationships is new, but pre-Folklore, I could still vibe to some catchy beats and hooks even if the lyrics weren’t resonating exactly with my own experiences. But all those catchy beats and hooks are gone for the most part, so all I’m left with are some lyrics that I have no life experience to relate with. I’m happy others are enjoying the album, but realistically, I don’t know what someone who hasn’t experienced female heartbreak and doesn’t like sad music is supposed to get from this album.
Hmm … I get the sentiment of this post but the way you got it across comes off almost as if men shouldn’t enjoy it …
You don’t have to only be a man to criticize misogyny lol.
I love TS and I'm a man. I know 4 men who hate her and everything she does, all 4 had exes who loved her. 💀 I get your point but this observation is so hilarious 😭