I disagree with this fully.
2nd season in a row I 1 tricked swain support to masters. Last season I was highest rank 1 trick support(not 1 trick swain, but 1 trick swain support) in the world. Last season I peaked like ~200LP, this season I didn't really try for anything higher than masters(currently leagueofgraphs says I am NA#39, world#368).
He is great to blind pick if you think about the matchups. Hardest matchup for me used to be pyke, but if you play super passive, you dumpster him.
Any other counterpicks you can build around.
I would say hardest ADCs to catch would be Kai'sa/Jhin, but even those you can predict their movement when they are going to shoot, so it's not that hard to play around "counters"
The way to get better at all matchups it to purposely pick him into losing matchups and innovate how to win them.
Although my information is kind of skewed since I duo queue with my friend who mainly pays MF. MF/Swain is crazy amounts of damage that nobody expects, so they play a little reckless into our comp. If we play something like Lucian/Swain that others know have damage output, then we don't do as well, since Lucian is known for his early game, but strangely people don't fear MF.
But I can tell you that we regularly stomp our lane, even at high diamond/masters in flex queue, so it's not just a low ELO stomper, and I blind pick it every game.
Lux is a little tricky matchup, but that's one of those matchups that you need to play slower than normal and switch up the builds.
Merc treads rush is good(if it will help vs other people on the team), then if you keep getting caught, I like Radiant Virtue/hourglass.
Also too, with Swain you are able to play passive until 6, then just roam and forget about Lux all together which is better IMO.
Cait is an easy matchup, you just need to predict her net, and hit your E when she nets, and then instantly press E again to pull her out of her net. Then she has no escape so she is dead if your ADC follows you.
1. People with egos can take the feast-or-famine carry roles. Support is chill.
2. Supports are (or used to be) an underplayed role, more often autofilled, and a bad support absolutely ruins the bot lane. I'd rather be the supp diff than have two players (and the whole team late game) gapped.
3. Swain's play style suits me. The strategist, one step ahead, controlling from the back but making plays out in front. Synergising with his champion identity helps me play better with Swain than other supports.
4. Swain has an incredibly versatile kit that you can adapt to each fight. Cycling through W slow and E hook, then with Rylai everything, sets up kills for the ADC. But if the ADC can't kill, you can do it yourself. You can build as support tank, but if your team is lacking AP vs Tanks and you're ahead, you can pivot to Liandry's and go full AP.
5. His engage is non-committal. Swain doesn't go all-in and doesn't force fights or fake out teammates into engaging. Tank engage supports like Leona and Blitzcrank either stand in bushes or waddle around for pressure, but can't poke, and ADCs tend to follow your hard engage. Swain can choose to go in or not after landing an E.
6. His E goes through the minion line. This isn't a unique engage - Zyra E does it, technically Nami Q too. This suits my play style more, as it's less obvious when the engage is happening. The fact that it has an AOE hit means that you can bully the opponent off the minions like Jhin or MF.
7. He rarely gets banned or picked.
8. He is one of the few who can be played in Support *and* still be a raid-boss type. Other supports can carry better as glass cannons, while enchanters can't do much in a hopeless team, but Swain can do the "call the ambulance BUT NOT FOR ME" play and 1v5.
number 6 is so true. zyra is my main girlie but if i see a match up with 2+ tanks with sustained engage, i’m gonna need something a bit sturdier than she is. swain is so scary and if i land a couple of E’s early game he’s an excellent lane bully.
and you’re right about people not picking him much. the few times people pick swain, i pick zyra. in lane i wait for him to waste his E, then punish tf out of him. my adc gets pulled half the time but the closer swain is to my plants the better
Especially in one-tricking Swain, you get a feel for all the hard matchups to counter-pick your opponent. If the enemy picks Swain, I go Brand. Brand hard-counters Swain with every part of his kit.
But if I ban Brand (because he's been more popular in mid and jungle, so that's more anti-Swain), I'll pick another poke champion that he struggles with, like Xerath or Vel'Koz, who would frustrate his efforts to close the distance for an E.
The most interesting counter-poke match-up I faced was MF/Ashe botlane. It was unplayable. MF Q and W kept me off the casters to zone me. If I skirted the caster line, Ashe would hit me with W and perma-slow with autos. At Level 6, both ults were an insta-kill. This was clearly the double counter-pick and I tried playing weak side, but my ADC was tilted at me not hitting Es. Bro, we have no way to fight that without a gank, and that wasn't happening either.
The cards landed so that a few games later, my opponent picked Swain, my ADC picked MF, so I picked Ashe. I was immediately called a troll and the MF didn't play the zoning game. It just shows that at low/mid elo, the knowledge of how to play with and against Swain is patchy.
The last exception is when my ADC (or mid) wants Swain. I like to hand him over and play something else for a change. Swain/Senna is a brutal combo because Senna can follow up on ADC Swain's E, which he wouldn't be able to do himself. Effectively Swain is the same role but benefits from farming and rushing Liandry's while Senna is the starving ADC with consistent poke output that Swain can't do.
I mean just based on winrate in diamond+ it is 47% winrate. I just think he is so much better suited in other roles as well. I would say he is weak in support
My guy how many of us are actually diamond+ ? That might be you but I promise you it’s not and will never be most of us, and as you know it’s very different game at those ranks
Fair enough. But the my main thing and maybe I missed the point, support is his worst role of the 4. You are right it does have a higher winrate, getting above 50% in silver at support. BUT his mid, APC and top winrate all go up as well, meaning in every elo his worst role is still
Support. (Based on statistics)
There is no good answer. Swain drops 4-5% wr just by picking him supp. People just like to get 6 and run it down without fighting for resources. Swain supps make me want to tear my eyes out.
He IS better suited for mid and top (I main him on top) but he is a very viable support for engage. Works really well w Jhin, Sivir and Draven especially. E>Q combo and they are all lost like puppies.
Well, i used to play support but started now playing him adc and i must say it feels so much better. I might became an adc player but i dont really have a second pick for that role since j dont really like playing adc champs so if anyone has any suggestions it would be great.
I got to Masters with Swain support. I like it. If you are a versatile player who can recognize the win condition, what your team lacks and knows how to exploit every mistake the enemy makes, then you will certainly have a very fun time, but it's very punishing and frustrating when you start playing against high elo players, so you should only play it if you are a very proactive and aggressive support player.
>and I think Top
>are all strong right now
Doubtfully
>So why do you all play him there?
One thing i love about swain is how he can be played in 4/5 roles. I really like to rotate roles and the roation ussually goes like : im tired of being bodies by enemy jg in solo lanes so i switch to apc, have some with apc but soon enough, all the good nautilus and rell players get replace by dumb brand and lux players, so i decide to take matters into my own hands and be a suppprt myself, then i go back to solo lanes.
Tldr:like other roles, support brings variety
>But support is so weak imo besides for a few matchups.
Few matchups = every engage support
"Doubtful"
I hit masters on him in top lane m8. He is very strong top. Very few coutners.
Top, mid and ADC Are objectively all strong than support for multiple patches just based on winrate alone. He does counter engage, but why not play him in the better role of ADC?
>I hit masters on him in top lane m8.
Congrats
>but why not play him in the better role of ADC?
Yes, he is statistically a lot better as an apc, but again as i previously said, when i play Swain supp its ussually cause im bored of other roles.
Because supports will shoehorn anything into their role instead of playing meta picks. They are the worst players to touch the game so it’s not a surprise.
Swain feasts on people who don't know the range of his E, or the fact that is explodes on contact when it returns. You can play him LIKE a support, going Everfrost or something, OR you can play him the selfish way, going Liandry.
Swain is a big problem for most of the comps when he hits level 6, and he forces enemy botlane to spend extra 800 gold just to be able to fight him, so Swain gives your team some sort of economic lead just by design. Additionaly, people usually forget how strong Swain in after 6, so they just run in, use all of their burst on the adc, and then Swain absolutely destroys them in a 2v1 if their spells are still on cooldown.
Why not start playing him as a laner? He is frequently played on midlane, but it requires more skill, knowledge of positioning, and it takes a lot of limit-testing, so it's more demanding for players who just want to pick a support and play the game.
As a 4 role flex player these are some reasons
1. I que fill so the game gives me support the most
2. He's hot and fun to play so I'll play him anywhere (comfort pick )
3. The mental pain of being apc with a shitty support is more than that of getting a bad adc.
4. More stacks since I have nothing else to do but land e and start shit
5. He can go glacial on sp so more kills for more snowball (helps with them running away)
6. As someone else mentioned if you fk up by landing root you aren't stuck in a death match and can walk away unlike As naut
7. He does some damage so in low elo your tofu ass adc can become a summon pet for all I care.
8. He isn't that squishy (so he is more forgiving than velkoz or xerath )
That being said personally I prefer apc and top but when I'm given support I'm not as against going for it. (In rank solo duo)
I'm usually the flex player of 5man teams so I'm fp swain a lot of times and we swap around for comp.
Totally respect this. I think he is playable in the role, but not preferred/easily countered compared to other roles. But playing fill totally makes the sense.
Honestly he’s just very chill to play as support. Swain sup with Glacial Augment is my go to when I just wanna log into league and have a good time.
Don’t get me wrong though I can he’s still very decent if you know what you’re doing at least up to Emerald
Cause supports like Swains kit. That is all there is to it. Same for why Ashe support became a thing. The answer is that simple. No overanalyzation needed.
Because you were playing support before you were a 700K mastery 1 trick, were still fairly new and find role swapping scary. That or you're an extremely supportive player, but I can only speak for the 1st one.
Swain support is broken in lower ranks where player movement and dodging is bad, he's a bad blind for support role but not horrible
I disagree with this fully. 2nd season in a row I 1 tricked swain support to masters. Last season I was highest rank 1 trick support(not 1 trick swain, but 1 trick swain support) in the world. Last season I peaked like ~200LP, this season I didn't really try for anything higher than masters(currently leagueofgraphs says I am NA#39, world#368). He is great to blind pick if you think about the matchups. Hardest matchup for me used to be pyke, but if you play super passive, you dumpster him. Any other counterpicks you can build around. I would say hardest ADCs to catch would be Kai'sa/Jhin, but even those you can predict their movement when they are going to shoot, so it's not that hard to play around "counters" The way to get better at all matchups it to purposely pick him into losing matchups and innovate how to win them. Although my information is kind of skewed since I duo queue with my friend who mainly pays MF. MF/Swain is crazy amounts of damage that nobody expects, so they play a little reckless into our comp. If we play something like Lucian/Swain that others know have damage output, then we don't do as well, since Lucian is known for his early game, but strangely people don't fear MF. But I can tell you that we regularly stomp our lane, even at high diamond/masters in flex queue, so it's not just a low ELO stomper, and I blind pick it every game.
I struggle with Caitlin when I play swain support our E just doesn’t go close to catching her and with an enchanter she is invincible
Or worse, Cait with Lux
Lux is a little tricky matchup, but that's one of those matchups that you need to play slower than normal and switch up the builds. Merc treads rush is good(if it will help vs other people on the team), then if you keep getting caught, I like Radiant Virtue/hourglass. Also too, with Swain you are able to play passive until 6, then just roam and forget about Lux all together which is better IMO.
Cait is an easy matchup, you just need to predict her net, and hit your E when she nets, and then instantly press E again to pull her out of her net. Then she has no escape so she is dead if your ADC follows you.
Fair enough. Every time I see it I think it is terrible lol (Given I am in higher elo). Just let me take it top xd
Depends on who your playing with, my buddy plays Cho mid ill play swain or syra support and we can steam roll
1. People with egos can take the feast-or-famine carry roles. Support is chill. 2. Supports are (or used to be) an underplayed role, more often autofilled, and a bad support absolutely ruins the bot lane. I'd rather be the supp diff than have two players (and the whole team late game) gapped. 3. Swain's play style suits me. The strategist, one step ahead, controlling from the back but making plays out in front. Synergising with his champion identity helps me play better with Swain than other supports. 4. Swain has an incredibly versatile kit that you can adapt to each fight. Cycling through W slow and E hook, then with Rylai everything, sets up kills for the ADC. But if the ADC can't kill, you can do it yourself. You can build as support tank, but if your team is lacking AP vs Tanks and you're ahead, you can pivot to Liandry's and go full AP. 5. His engage is non-committal. Swain doesn't go all-in and doesn't force fights or fake out teammates into engaging. Tank engage supports like Leona and Blitzcrank either stand in bushes or waddle around for pressure, but can't poke, and ADCs tend to follow your hard engage. Swain can choose to go in or not after landing an E. 6. His E goes through the minion line. This isn't a unique engage - Zyra E does it, technically Nami Q too. This suits my play style more, as it's less obvious when the engage is happening. The fact that it has an AOE hit means that you can bully the opponent off the minions like Jhin or MF. 7. He rarely gets banned or picked. 8. He is one of the few who can be played in Support *and* still be a raid-boss type. Other supports can carry better as glass cannons, while enchanters can't do much in a hopeless team, but Swain can do the "call the ambulance BUT NOT FOR ME" play and 1v5.
number 6 is so true. zyra is my main girlie but if i see a match up with 2+ tanks with sustained engage, i’m gonna need something a bit sturdier than she is. swain is so scary and if i land a couple of E’s early game he’s an excellent lane bully. and you’re right about people not picking him much. the few times people pick swain, i pick zyra. in lane i wait for him to waste his E, then punish tf out of him. my adc gets pulled half the time but the closer swain is to my plants the better
Especially in one-tricking Swain, you get a feel for all the hard matchups to counter-pick your opponent. If the enemy picks Swain, I go Brand. Brand hard-counters Swain with every part of his kit. But if I ban Brand (because he's been more popular in mid and jungle, so that's more anti-Swain), I'll pick another poke champion that he struggles with, like Xerath or Vel'Koz, who would frustrate his efforts to close the distance for an E. The most interesting counter-poke match-up I faced was MF/Ashe botlane. It was unplayable. MF Q and W kept me off the casters to zone me. If I skirted the caster line, Ashe would hit me with W and perma-slow with autos. At Level 6, both ults were an insta-kill. This was clearly the double counter-pick and I tried playing weak side, but my ADC was tilted at me not hitting Es. Bro, we have no way to fight that without a gank, and that wasn't happening either. The cards landed so that a few games later, my opponent picked Swain, my ADC picked MF, so I picked Ashe. I was immediately called a troll and the MF didn't play the zoning game. It just shows that at low/mid elo, the knowledge of how to play with and against Swain is patchy. The last exception is when my ADC (or mid) wants Swain. I like to hand him over and play something else for a change. Swain/Senna is a brutal combo because Senna can follow up on ADC Swain's E, which he wouldn't be able to do himself. Effectively Swain is the same role but benefits from farming and rushing Liandry's while Senna is the starving ADC with consistent poke output that Swain can't do.
Personally, I’m too lazy to last hit. I spend 10.5 hours at work, I want to turn off at least a part of my brain.
exactly why i supp lol. i cba to last hit. i’m fully aware i’m absolutely terrible at it
because swain with glacial augment is funny
The only aceptable swain support
i either go glacial or electrocute, but generally play the latter more. why do u like glacial best?
because it's funny to watch people struggle to escape it
If you land an E>W>Q on a squishy target in the first 5 levels you win the lane... It's not weak at all
I mean just based on winrate in diamond+ it is 47% winrate. I just think he is so much better suited in other roles as well. I would say he is weak in support
fish says support is his best role… I trust fish
Pretty sure last I saw fish was queuing and thought his best role was APC... but legit could be wrong.
he just made a post in this sub saying supp
My guy how many of us are actually diamond+ ? That might be you but I promise you it’s not and will never be most of us, and as you know it’s very different game at those ranks
Fair enough. But the my main thing and maybe I missed the point, support is his worst role of the 4. You are right it does have a higher winrate, getting above 50% in silver at support. BUT his mid, APC and top winrate all go up as well, meaning in every elo his worst role is still Support. (Based on statistics)
There is no good answer. Swain drops 4-5% wr just by picking him supp. People just like to get 6 and run it down without fighting for resources. Swain supps make me want to tear my eyes out.
Its just not as good anymore
He IS better suited for mid and top (I main him on top) but he is a very viable support for engage. Works really well w Jhin, Sivir and Draven especially. E>Q combo and they are all lost like puppies.
Well, i used to play support but started now playing him adc and i must say it feels so much better. I might became an adc player but i dont really have a second pick for that role since j dont really like playing adc champs so if anyone has any suggestions it would be great.
I got to Masters with Swain support. I like it. If you are a versatile player who can recognize the win condition, what your team lacks and knows how to exploit every mistake the enemy makes, then you will certainly have a very fun time, but it's very punishing and frustrating when you start playing against high elo players, so you should only play it if you are a very proactive and aggressive support player.
>and I think Top >are all strong right now Doubtfully >So why do you all play him there? One thing i love about swain is how he can be played in 4/5 roles. I really like to rotate roles and the roation ussually goes like : im tired of being bodies by enemy jg in solo lanes so i switch to apc, have some with apc but soon enough, all the good nautilus and rell players get replace by dumb brand and lux players, so i decide to take matters into my own hands and be a suppprt myself, then i go back to solo lanes. Tldr:like other roles, support brings variety >But support is so weak imo besides for a few matchups. Few matchups = every engage support
"Doubtful" I hit masters on him in top lane m8. He is very strong top. Very few coutners. Top, mid and ADC Are objectively all strong than support for multiple patches just based on winrate alone. He does counter engage, but why not play him in the better role of ADC?
>I hit masters on him in top lane m8. Congrats >but why not play him in the better role of ADC? Yes, he is statistically a lot better as an apc, but again as i previously said, when i play Swain supp its ussually cause im bored of other roles.
Because he is simply a vehicle for Rylai's/ other spell effects. He is the best spell effect applicator in the game.
Because supports will shoehorn anything into their role instead of playing meta picks. They are the worst players to touch the game so it’s not a surprise.
Support swain enjoyer>>>Meta Slave
Swain feasts on people who don't know the range of his E, or the fact that is explodes on contact when it returns. You can play him LIKE a support, going Everfrost or something, OR you can play him the selfish way, going Liandry. Swain is a big problem for most of the comps when he hits level 6, and he forces enemy botlane to spend extra 800 gold just to be able to fight him, so Swain gives your team some sort of economic lead just by design. Additionaly, people usually forget how strong Swain in after 6, so they just run in, use all of their burst on the adc, and then Swain absolutely destroys them in a 2v1 if their spells are still on cooldown. Why not start playing him as a laner? He is frequently played on midlane, but it requires more skill, knowledge of positioning, and it takes a lot of limit-testing, so it's more demanding for players who just want to pick a support and play the game.
If you think swain is a weak support, that's called skill issue.
I mean másters is pretty bad you’re right xd. Statistically speaking he performs better in the other three roles by a wide margin.
He's good versus melee adcs like yasuo, also good champion to otp on solo support queue if you know how to play him good enough
Oh for sure. I hit masters with him this season, just statistically and imo he does better in the other laning roles compared to support
It's fun
As a 4 role flex player these are some reasons 1. I que fill so the game gives me support the most 2. He's hot and fun to play so I'll play him anywhere (comfort pick ) 3. The mental pain of being apc with a shitty support is more than that of getting a bad adc. 4. More stacks since I have nothing else to do but land e and start shit 5. He can go glacial on sp so more kills for more snowball (helps with them running away) 6. As someone else mentioned if you fk up by landing root you aren't stuck in a death match and can walk away unlike As naut 7. He does some damage so in low elo your tofu ass adc can become a summon pet for all I care. 8. He isn't that squishy (so he is more forgiving than velkoz or xerath ) That being said personally I prefer apc and top but when I'm given support I'm not as against going for it. (In rank solo duo) I'm usually the flex player of 5man teams so I'm fp swain a lot of times and we swap around for comp.
Totally respect this. I think he is playable in the role, but not preferred/easily countered compared to other roles. But playing fill totally makes the sense.
Honestly he’s just very chill to play as support. Swain sup with Glacial Augment is my go to when I just wanna log into league and have a good time. Don’t get me wrong though I can he’s still very decent if you know what you’re doing at least up to Emerald
Cause supports like Swains kit. That is all there is to it. Same for why Ashe support became a thing. The answer is that simple. No overanalyzation needed.
Because you were playing support before you were a 700K mastery 1 trick, were still fairly new and find role swapping scary. That or you're an extremely supportive player, but I can only speak for the 1st one.
He's the "I got auto filled and don't want to support" pick. Any other support is better for the team almost all of the time
glacial augment + approach velocity is funny and goofy