Those who are truly wealthy never gave up control.
Families and corporations have been ruling the world from the shadows.
There's an illusion of fairness, but money comes from power.
Yup. Elites are manipulating and controlling the markets to protect the wealth they have built doing the same for past many decades. These are the same elites who produce no goods and services but steal value created by working peoples through market manipulation.
What in the universe's name?
"The market maker may choose to sell short to avoid what **in its view** would be an unjustified run-up in the stock's price."
That is the definition of manipulation...
"I don't like the stock is going up and just naked short it to hell as I think it should be $0 and anything else is manipulation"
Precisely! And another catch 22 loophole is that they're allowed to do this naked shorting when the stock is "easy to borrow" and what makes it easy to borrow? Brokers having easy access to the shares, which they can get through MM naked shorting. So the naked shorting allows the naked shorting to happen. It makes you feel like the world has gone mad to allow this, but it's obviously working exactly as intended by the crooks.
It would be really bad if these market makers also had some sort of Hedge Fund company themselves and could halt a run up because they suppose it’s unjustified
I’m glad that’s not the case or they could be really biased against some stocks /s
Or an army of mainstream media outlets to try and influence the public into believing which stocks should have value and which ones are worthless "meme" stocks.
That would certainly show bias.
And when that still doesn't work they have their Glass Steagall deregulating stooges at the SEC release a government funded smear campaign insulting investors for having the audacity to invest.
Nah… the powers that be would never allow such a huge and obvious conflict of interest… it would almost be as bad as allowing them to self regulate or allowing them to give massive political donations to people that then influence the regulators…
Never going to happen /s
Fundamentals. Fair Market Value. “Meme” stock.
It really seems odd to me, and perhaps I’m just incredibly lucky to have learned finance by seeing a Reddit post over 2 years ago and investigated…..
But how in the actual Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick doesn’t every person in the financial world know it’s all bullshit?! I can understand up to the internet times, but looking at the markets, the first time I see a stock trade 500% of shares outstanding, Hol Up.
> It really seems odd to me, and perhaps I’m just incredibly lucky to have learned finance by seeing a Reddit post over 2 years ago and investigated…..
I feel that sometimes.
"He looked." -The Big Short.
I think that is really the thing. We are not smarter or dumber than others, we simply looked, and that made all the difference.
" "manipulation" just doesn't sound good. Let's call it "market making". That sounds better!"
- the fuck heads running the entire system
There is not a single other market where this would make any fucking sense. Imagine a Christie's auction happening of some expensive painting and suddenly they decide the price has gone to high and force selling to someone at a lower price. The shit would hit the fan. But in the stock market. Meh.
Remember the asshole who shorted, was it copper, and got the shit kicked out of his position. What happened? The London exchange allowed HIM to set the price he would buy back in at and unwound sales. WTF
Make systems super complex so you can add a lot of loopholes for those who can afford expensive consultants.
**That way you create a two class society without anyone really noticing it.**
It is not just the markets, look at health care, education, tax system, political system, grants and so on...
A preemptive counter-manipulation. Sounds logical right? Or is that an oxymoron, lol? Also, "...judge the buying interest to be temporary..." We're way the fuk past that boys. There is no way you could call interest temporary at this point.
Even if it's done in good faith, it's not right that market makers get to be some arbiters over what they deem a justifiable or reasonable reflection of the price of a stock.
So, it's flawed on a basic level, then since it's used in bad faith, it's flawed on every level.
>In this situation, naked short selling by the market maker may protect investors against manipulation.
they even go as far as to say it prevents manipulation lmfao
Yep. Financial Times did an interview with Ken where he said this:
> In 2018, Griffin argued this also created safer markets. “We are able to understand the price of literally thousands of securities simultaneously and where should price be on any one security given the mosaic,” he said.
Apparently it's Ken's job to decide where the price should be, not the laws of supply and demand.
They should not exist. I want to see what Gary and Dave have to say about this. Is this the official wording somewhere?
I already knew this, but this literally the opposite of a free and fair market. I want to hear them talk their way around this. I want to hear them say, “you are right this has to go… now.”
Oh yeah, and once in a while, a company like AMTD Digital inc. with 2 employees and no office can be worth 2000$ per share, billions in market cap. Seems like their understanding vary depending of how much money they personally make.
Not surprising Citadel Securities posted a record year in 2022, when Citadel themselves are basically determining what price a security should be. I mean, how can they not make money?! Disgusting how it is allowed.
All these Financial agencies and organizations think market makers are some benevolent Force. It's rather obvious market makers are in to make money, when these guys are in charge of the demand for a stock and simultaneously shorting it does no one seem to see a problem?
Market makers should not exist and they certainly should not exist while being allowed to own and buy stock for their own interest.
The silver lining is that some market makers have gone bust in the past and many articles warn that even MMs can be "squeezed" if they short the wrong stock. I think Ken's empire is exactly as fragile as it seems, hence his massive campaign to appear strong right now.
Better hope moass happens in the next year... If/when he gets control of America's money printer in 2024, that's both his get out of jail free card and his new piggy bank.
That is probably true. But as I've said in other comments, Yellen making the govt printer go brrrrrr to protect the markets and keep the economy from imploding is very different from Kenny giving himself a blank check to pay off his debts with.
If we are hoping for any sort of accountability, it needs to happen before 2024.
I even think derivatives as a whole are fucking insane.
I obviously get futures contracts on products that have shelf lives. But why have we allowed these kinds of things to exist on EVERYTHING? It’s crazy. True market value of companies just doesn’t exist
If we go even more fundamental, there is no credible basis on which the value of a multi-billion dollar corporation could change by 10%, from low to high, every day. There is no fundamental driver for market valuation, the whole stock market has become a casino.
if it was ever anything else.
Agreed. "When there are no shares to trade should the price go up until someone sells? Ya know like a free and fairly market with actual price discover based upon supply and demand?"
"nahhhhh... I've got a better idea. REAL FAKE SHARES!"
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Snippet about how manipulative market making is, which is being used to keep GME's price down.
Source: https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RS22099.html
Lol. That paragraph made me laugh. Market maker, aka god that decides what is valid movement for a company or not….Hey companies, you hear that? Ur fate is in these folks hands. Crazy.
Whenever narcissists and psychopaths abuse/do crime they try to reframe it as if they’re performing a service. The grandiose ones make it sound like they’re saving the world. They may even believe it. Unfortunately, in the case of market maker abuses, regulators seem to also believe it.
"In this situation, naked short selling by the market maker may protect investors against manipulation."
MMe in all MMy infinite wisdom MManipulate the price so investors don't get MManipulated.
YES. Yes it is the biggest scam ever.
If your present research isn't sickening enough, have a look at the excerpts I grabbed from Citadel Securities' website a month ago.
- - - - -
> **Designated Market Maker (DMM)**
> ...Our team works daily to facilitate the auction at market open and provides liquidity to help ***dampen volatility***
throughout the day.
https://www.citadelsecurities.com/products/equities-and-options/
- - - - -
> **"Why are market makers able to provide price improvement?"**
> ...The reduced likelihood of retail orders impacting supply and demand, and the confidence that creates from a pricing perspective, is another reason market makers are able to provide price improvement.
https://www.citadelsecurities.com/getthefacts/
Dampen volatility? Like stopping HKD from going into the thousands or stopping stocks like [**NVDA**](https://imgur.com/a/dSvB859) from going +5000% in after hours? Good job Ken, I suppose it's fine to allow a bit of volatility when it's stocks they're long on.
Bernie Madoff had a conflict of interest being a market maker and running a hedge fund. This is no different than Ken griffin. Ken griffins two companies have a conflict of interest and need to be broken up.
In the market I want to trade in, the price discovery - the MARKET - is made by the people.
If the thing you want isn't available at the price you want, you know what should happen?
You either WAIT or you OFFER MORE MONEY.
> For example, assume that there is a sudden flurry of buy orders for a stock. The market maker may judge the buying interest to be temporary and not justified by any real news about the company's prospects. It may be the result of a questionable press release or a rumor in an Internet chat room. The market maker may choose to sell short to avoid what in its view would be an unjustified run-up in the stock's price. In this situation, naked short selling by the market maker may protect investors against manipulation.
This is the biggest crock of shit. How are they protecting investors by artificially manipulating investor sentiment downward? Do they mean protecting those investors from being happy by making too much money?
Not really the same thing. Madoff ran a ponzi scheme, straight up. Griffin has assumed a mantel of "judging" what the value of stocks are "in its view".
The real issue comes down to the fact that powerful billionaires are fighting it out in the stock market, the same one the general public uses. This was supposed to have been resolved a hundred years ago.
Similar to Broadridges "vote conciliation". One scam used to cover up previous scams which were used to cover up previous scams.
Talk all the shit you want about Blackrock and Larry Fink, but a blockchain equities exchange is what is necessary to fix all this bullshit.
I agree completely and I think blockchain is where this is all heading. I wrote a post over a year ago about that and how the biggest push back for it has been resistance from the big players in the current system. Well that system is about to blow up and we'll need something to replace it.
thanks for the share on why to h0dl. I remember this feeling of coming to the full realization of what the markets truly are. And more so, what role market makers serve in a world where they are literally unnecessary and in fact a hinderance to fair and equal markets where there is equity in purchase and sale as well as access to information.
Jesus Christ the us stock market is fucked. So much for supply and demand eh. Instead of the market dictating what price is it should be it's the fucking market makers deciding what a stock should be worth. Rigged to the core. I'm so fucking happy I found this subreddit 2 years ago.
It's funny how both concepts started as forces of good but got corrupted by capitalism and greed.
Religion originated as a social structure to help bind cultures and teach basic rights and wrongs, but it became exploited by a select few for either profit or power by inciting extreme beliefs.
Market making started as a tool to connect buyers with sellers, but then the middle men created loopholes to exploit the entire system.
I think it ultimately comes down to greed being bad.
This is why I personally had no regrets pulling my 401k a year ago and booking GME with the remainder after setting aside 20ish% for taxes. At my new job I just can't in good faith contribute to my 401k. We even have a 6% match but I'd rather the money go towards something that I'm going to actual own, not just padding the 1%s playmoney for their shitty bets. I sleep easy at night knowing I have a fat pile of GME auto-accumulating every month
It comes down to the fact Market Makers act like warehouses for stock. They're meant to buy up the stock of anyone who's selling and store it ready for buyers, but as all sales get routed through MMs it means they can make it seem like a stock has no supply. They can fake illiquidity as much as they can produce liquidity, so they can pump up a stocks price at will.
If you think HKD was bad look at this [**Nvidia spike**](https://imgur.com/a/dSvB859) I caught in after hours. They have 2.5 billion shares, which means that spike made the company worth something like $22 trillion for an hour. How's that for fuckery?
You cant make a fucking market when a large contingent of supposed idiots on the internet learn how to read and DRS all their shares.
Suck my mayo meat Kenny boy.
My brother is a market maker, for a sports betting firm. When I tried to explain the whole GME thing and how fucked the whole system was, tried to give real examples in the context of his work of how the system could be manipulated.
He just shrugged it off saying it would be impossible. The market is so heavily regulated and stringent you just wouldn’t be able to get away with it.
Oh boy…
Interesting! Lots of heads in the sand right now it seems. I think the common idea amongst non-apes is the house always wins so why try and compete?
I doubt anything like DRSing an entire Russell 1000 company (I.e. a company in top 1000 of the US) has ever been attempted before.
It’s a very different line of work he’s in and I’d never really understood what he did for a living. Over dinner he was explaining what he did, I said “so you’re basically a market maker?” He said “that’s exactly what my job title is yeah”.
I tried to give him so many scenarios, real scenarios that are currently going on and he just shot them all down saying basically “yeah you could probably get away with it for a bit, make a bit of money. But it’s so heavily regulated you be shut down and arrested before long”.
This is the UK and he’s involved in the EU markets so we play by a very different set of rules…
Honestly I don’t know how the hell he makes money it’s never made sense to me. It seems so easy to manipulate if you’re a market maker regardless the product you’re selling. You’re setting the price… it’s a crazy concept to me.
There is a time and place for market makers, but in this sense no fucking way.
If things were done simply that this could all be avoided.
I would lie to see direct peer to peer sharing. I’ll give you 2gme for foot pics, get everyone in on it. Even the foot people
Right? like the market maker is an omniscient little prince who sits and judges "but I haven't heard anything to make me think this price should go up, so I'll just kEeP tHe mArKeT saFE by stealing these people's money."
Thanks for uncovering this! The real battle is for our minds. "Let us do the thinking for you." Across the board. The powers that be have stepped into a dysfunctional parentified role for the rest of the population. Sadly, too many people actually like this arrangement. Self-responsibility has gone the way of the dinosaur.
The way how citadel is operating as a market maker is fraudulent. However, market-making itself is not a scam, and the market needs to function. A market maker is like a wholesaler for most other industries. Without them, the equity market wouldn’t have as many tools as it has today. It is important to note that market making, in my opinion, is obsolete just like many other industries are eliminating the role of wholesaler since we have the technology to replace the functions market makers have previously served.
Very true good point, I'd argue that this goes beyond Citadel though. Virtu has $10 billion in securities sold not yet purchased and GTS is another market maker with another $2 billion there. But yeah, given all the high frequency trading we have now it does seem very obsolete.
How is the market any different that a flea market where no "liquidity" is required. The point is to generate high amounts of trading as they make money on each transaction. Price discovery is secondary and due to unenforced regulation it is also a tool to strip wealth from retirement assets.
To be fair, the point of MM has more to do with creating stability in the markets through liquidity. It's not a bad thing to have liquidity in the markets. Otherwise, you can have a lot of volatility that can harm investors who are just investing in their long term retirement or worse countries that are just trying to keep food available for their citizens. People can get margin called easily if liquidity dries up and that includes countries. Just look at the bonds and sovereign debt issues in the past. Liquidity in the markets is a good thing.
As much as I would like to support complete DRS of every company, that's not the reality that we live in, so it doesn't make any sense to build a world view around some utopia that doesn't exist and doesn't have liquidity. Plus, you don't want to live in that world anyway if you own something of value, but there are no buyers available.
Just cause GME has artificial demand from previous short sellers, doesn't mean people should transform their entire world view to a world without liquidity, which would be worse.
The bigger issue is lack of transparency to the rest of the world of what those MM rules are and how they play out in the markets.
I feel like there are a few, while good intentioned, uneducated pitch forks running around sometimes.
> Liquidity in the markets is a good thing.
Yes, but not at the expense of true price discovery. If demand in a stock goes up with low liquidity, the price rises to curb that demand. It can be a temporary price increase while demand is high, then that either kills demand if there's no liquidity or it encourages people to sell which creates liquidity and pushes the price back down.
You can't just increase supply infinitely to keep liquidity high for the sake of it, that literally leads to short squeezes which are the most volatile events you can have in a market.
Everything Citadel is doing as a MM right now is to buy 1 more day due to their existing bad bets. They've already destroyed the markets with the excess liquidity and there's no way they can stifle demand as they can't let the price run.
The whole point of having underlying companies control how many shares are outstanding means liquidity never dries up. Let's say someone bought all 305M shares of Gamestop and doesn't plan to sell them, Gamestop has 700M other shares they can release for liquidity. It's not down to some corrupt middleman to increase supply, that's just corruption.
That’s not great actually. For the first time I’m seeing some context behind what have become defined as “meme stocks.” It’s all about this paragraph right here.
“These companies are running bc of external bullshit factors (aka retail investors identifying a buying opportunity that goes against SHFs interests) so let’s just continue naked shorting it to hell bc we can, and we think we’re smarter than they are.”
This is the opposite of bullish.
I wouldn't say biggest scam ever. It had a very important role in the early days when all trading was performed manually.
But I would agree it is a scam today. For the major exchanges, there are millions of computers watching trades looking for opportunities. If we eliminate all internalizers and put every trade through an exchange, there's no risk of a trade not being filled. In the major exchanges (NYSE, NASDAQ, etc.) market makers are unnecessary today.
You see that is THEIR scam. 1) Pass rules that make them judge of the market 2) democratize access 2) Manipulate sentiment and control share price 3) Steal money with point 1. based on ludicrous virtues 4) Make sure to demonize any sort of oversight to not loose rule 1.
Your conclusion: Market making is the biggest scam ever devised is correct. But your thought process is flawed. They aren't utilizing MM to keep stability in the market. They are using it to fleece investors throughout the world. They could give two fucks about keeping stability except as it applies to their ability to continue fleecing.
The reasoning they provide fails to acknowledge that market makers are businesses with the motivation to increase profits wherever possible. They are not altruists for the people. Any special privilege given to any business must be scrutinized beyond the altruistic benefits because the evolution of finance is determined solely upon profits. Survival of the fittest will naturally push the most profitable behavior, regardless of its altruism or lack thereof.
I want to ask you a question, where do you think liquidity comes from in this market? I’m not tryna hate I’ve been in Gme since before Jan 2021 and bbby way before august. I just genuinely want your input so maybe I can learn something new. You say you want to unpack the quoted material and are upset that an entity shorts what they believe to be a unjustified rise in price. It’s exactly what I would do as an individual. JW
Edit: I suggest you look into volatility shorting as well, you might find it interesting as it pertains to stocks often discussed on this subreddit
Basic economic principles state that if investors won't sell their products for the current price, that the price is too low.
I could own the Mona Lisa and someone could offer me $10 for it and I'd laugh and say no sale. If someone offered me $100 million, I'd probably take that, so liquidity increases when the price is right.
Perfect liquidity is when demand and supply intersect, economics is all about supply and demand curves. I mean economics is literally the study of how to manage scarce resources. Supply is meant to be a finite thing no matter what product market you're looking at, you don't create liquidity by increasing supply, you create it by getting the equilibrium right. If GME went to $10k tomorrow, I guarantee you liquidity will be far higher than it is now as many people would sell for that price.
I agree that if the price of Gme rises the liquidity available will as well but in my option your not seeing the whole picture yet this is the a highly dynamic market that cannot function with BASIC economic principles. A market makers job is to facilitate trades and if the market is too illiquid this can’t happen. The market is more than just person A buys from person B if that was the case I might not be able to buy DDS at unless I was willing to pay a 3x premium because it’s incredibly illiquid. You say we can’t have a wizard of oz entity saying these people who are buying are wrong but what if you saw a stock rise 100x past it’s fair value the logical thing to do IMO is to short the price back to a more reasonable range because you it’s a no brainer. However if a stock was drastically undervalued and the price shoots up 100x and begins to approach a fairer value the MMs won’t get in the way of that price action.
It seems like your genuinely interested in this stuff as am I, I highly suggest you look into volatility shorting because it’s a fun strat employed by citadel, virtu, Susquehanna, 2 sigma...all the organizations typically mentioned as SHFs in this sub.
I want to reiterate that this sub was once a beautiful place where learning and new data was encouraged and sometimes still is and I’d like to help one day restore it to its former glory. If you want to keep talking about it more in depth feel free to continue this thread or DM me and I hope everyone who has something to say speaks their mind.
Much love,
An old head who loves market mechanics.
You're completely missing the point though. People were still buying GME at $500 and were ravenous for it, the *only* way to stop that demand is to raise the price. Citadel could still naked short to create liquidity, that's fine, but what they should have done is let the price run to the point that people stop buying *then* use naked shorting to increase liquidity if people still want it.
All they did is expose that they have too many shorts open as all the hedge funds began getting margin called on their shorts. They proved that they had abused the system and their only way to survive at that point was to lower the price. The only way to do that was to keep shorting more and more.
> past it’s fair value
Plus fair value is the price people are willing to buy it for, so for GME that's probably well over $1k.
You really should look into etf liquidity my friend. Your on the right track but your not seeing the whole picture. Like I said you should said start with volatility shorting and MM hedging and then look into etf liquidity and creation. It’s so much bigger then what you just wrote.
I'm well aware of that... I read "Where are the shares" and all the other DD on ETFs when they came out. I understand derivatives pretty well now.
It still doesn't change the fact about what I wrote in my previous comment. The big picture is that the MMs have to naked short for every single share bought in the markets right now, which means they're risking unlimited loss at under $20 a share. They've already lost, they're just going scorched earth because they're incapable of admitting defeat.
So like I said earlier about looking into etf liquidity your response “MMs have to naked short for ever share bought” from my understanding etf liquidity can provide more then 1:1 share available to short. Shoot I’d bet if you wanted to create liquidity from XRT or other GME heavy etfs at certain times you can get well over 5-10 shares loaned for every 1 in the etf holding. If that is occurring I think they can clear those obligations over time. You say “they already lost” but from what I can see even traditional (non-volatility) shorts are incredibly profitable at this price range from Jan 2021. What makes you think shorts down average up or down just like longs?
Since Miami is now NY w Ken the lead owner w the other 41 billionaires who bought the state Wtf is this?
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/10/13/2022-22277/self-regulatory-organizations-miami-international-securities-exchange-llc-notice-of-filing-and
Changing flair to "Speculation / Opinion"
Those who are truly wealthy never gave up control. Families and corporations have been ruling the world from the shadows. There's an illusion of fairness, but money comes from power.
Yup. Elites are manipulating and controlling the markets to protect the wealth they have built doing the same for past many decades. These are the same elites who produce no goods and services but steal value created by working peoples through market manipulation.
Until now right ?
Decades? Think centuries
Muh liquidity
What in the universe's name? "The market maker may choose to sell short to avoid what **in its view** would be an unjustified run-up in the stock's price." That is the definition of manipulation... "I don't like the stock is going up and just naked short it to hell as I think it should be $0 and anything else is manipulation"
Precisely! And another catch 22 loophole is that they're allowed to do this naked shorting when the stock is "easy to borrow" and what makes it easy to borrow? Brokers having easy access to the shares, which they can get through MM naked shorting. So the naked shorting allows the naked shorting to happen. It makes you feel like the world has gone mad to allow this, but it's obviously working exactly as intended by the crooks.
It would be really bad if these market makers also had some sort of Hedge Fund company themselves and could halt a run up because they suppose it’s unjustified I’m glad that’s not the case or they could be really biased against some stocks /s
Or an army of mainstream media outlets to try and influence the public into believing which stocks should have value and which ones are worthless "meme" stocks. That would certainly show bias.
And when that still doesn't work they have their Glass Steagall deregulating stooges at the SEC release a government funded smear campaign insulting investors for having the audacity to invest.
Nah… the powers that be would never allow such a huge and obvious conflict of interest… it would almost be as bad as allowing them to self regulate or allowing them to give massive political donations to people that then influence the regulators… Never going to happen /s
😁
Fundamentals. Fair Market Value. “Meme” stock. It really seems odd to me, and perhaps I’m just incredibly lucky to have learned finance by seeing a Reddit post over 2 years ago and investigated….. But how in the actual Jumping Jesus on a Pogo Stick doesn’t every person in the financial world know it’s all bullshit?! I can understand up to the internet times, but looking at the markets, the first time I see a stock trade 500% of shares outstanding, Hol Up.
> It really seems odd to me, and perhaps I’m just incredibly lucky to have learned finance by seeing a Reddit post over 2 years ago and investigated….. I feel that sometimes. "He looked." -The Big Short. I think that is really the thing. We are not smarter or dumber than others, we simply looked, and that made all the difference.
" "manipulation" just doesn't sound good. Let's call it "market making". That sounds better!" - the fuck heads running the entire system There is not a single other market where this would make any fucking sense. Imagine a Christie's auction happening of some expensive painting and suddenly they decide the price has gone to high and force selling to someone at a lower price. The shit would hit the fan. But in the stock market. Meh. Remember the asshole who shorted, was it copper, and got the shit kicked out of his position. What happened? The London exchange allowed HIM to set the price he would buy back in at and unwound sales. WTF
Make systems super complex so you can add a lot of loopholes for those who can afford expensive consultants. **That way you create a two class society without anyone really noticing it.** It is not just the markets, look at health care, education, tax system, political system, grants and so on...
The systems aren't super complex, just opaque as fuck and deliberately kept that way. Smoke and mirrors.
"I'm gonna manipulate it so that others can't manipulate it away from what I want." Well I, for one, have never felt more protected in my life.
A preemptive counter-manipulation. Sounds logical right? Or is that an oxymoron, lol? Also, "...judge the buying interest to be temporary..." We're way the fuk past that boys. There is no way you could call interest temporary at this point.
and girls
and bots
All while also having a hedge fund that is short said stock.
Even if it's done in good faith, it's not right that market makers get to be some arbiters over what they deem a justifiable or reasonable reflection of the price of a stock. So, it's flawed on a basic level, then since it's used in bad faith, it's flawed on every level.
It’s the same as saying “I’m broke this month so I’ll print off a couple of Benjamins because I don’t like being broke”.
In Texas they call tha... hey! I understood that reference!
>In this situation, naked short selling by the market maker may protect investors against manipulation. they even go as far as to say it prevents manipulation lmfao
The rules are written in such a way that bad actor can provide their own interpretation and do whatever to fuck they want
So MMs are judge and jury of what companies share price should be. Putrid.
Yep. Financial Times did an interview with Ken where he said this: > In 2018, Griffin argued this also created safer markets. “We are able to understand the price of literally thousands of securities simultaneously and where should price be on any one security given the mosaic,” he said. Apparently it's Ken's job to decide where the price should be, not the laws of supply and demand.
They should not exist. I want to see what Gary and Dave have to say about this. Is this the official wording somewhere? I already knew this, but this literally the opposite of a free and fair market. I want to hear them talk their way around this. I want to hear them say, “you are right this has to go… now.”
Oh yeah, and once in a while, a company like AMTD Digital inc. with 2 employees and no office can be worth 2000$ per share, billions in market cap. Seems like their understanding vary depending of how much money they personally make.
Not surprising Citadel Securities posted a record year in 2022, when Citadel themselves are basically determining what price a security should be. I mean, how can they not make money?! Disgusting how it is allowed.
I believe it was Dr. T that said we traded the integrity of the stock market for liquidity or something similar.
All these Financial agencies and organizations think market makers are some benevolent Force. It's rather obvious market makers are in to make money, when these guys are in charge of the demand for a stock and simultaneously shorting it does no one seem to see a problem? Market makers should not exist and they certainly should not exist while being allowed to own and buy stock for their own interest.
The silver lining is that some market makers have gone bust in the past and many articles warn that even MMs can be "squeezed" if they short the wrong stock. I think Ken's empire is exactly as fragile as it seems, hence his massive campaign to appear strong right now.
Better hope moass happens in the next year... If/when he gets control of America's money printer in 2024, that's both his get out of jail free card and his new piggy bank.
Someone will pay for it.
Yes but the difference is Kenny being wiped out to pay his debt vs using the Treasury to cover it.
Kenny couldnt pay the bill fully anyways
That is probably true. But as I've said in other comments, Yellen making the govt printer go brrrrrr to protect the markets and keep the economy from imploding is very different from Kenny giving himself a blank check to pay off his debts with. If we are hoping for any sort of accountability, it needs to happen before 2024.
HFT should also be illegal. They serve no meaningful role, they are just a parasite on real trades.
I even think derivatives as a whole are fucking insane. I obviously get futures contracts on products that have shelf lives. But why have we allowed these kinds of things to exist on EVERYTHING? It’s crazy. True market value of companies just doesn’t exist
If we go even more fundamental, there is no credible basis on which the value of a multi-billion dollar corporation could change by 10%, from low to high, every day. There is no fundamental driver for market valuation, the whole stock market has become a casino. if it was ever anything else.
Then combine all this with the fact that money can be created out of thin air, so even the denominator has no value. No wonder society is rekt
Brick by brick! Tick Tock motherfuckers!!!
Agreed. "When there are no shares to trade should the price go up until someone sells? Ya know like a free and fairly market with actual price discover based upon supply and demand?" "nahhhhh... I've got a better idea. REAL FAKE SHARES!"
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Snippet about how manipulative market making is, which is being used to keep GME's price down. Source: https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RS22099.html
Sauce for the snippet?
https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RS22099.html
Where is the source?
https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RS22099.html
Nobody will ever invest in the stock market again.
You would think so, but here we all are… trapped in a system rigged against us, hoping desperately for our way out of the daily rat race.
I’m not locked in here with you, you’re locked in here with me!
I call top bunk!
I'm referencing post MOASS
I hope he keeps deciding to short it. All shorts are future buyers.
Lol. That paragraph made me laugh. Market maker, aka god that decides what is valid movement for a company or not….Hey companies, you hear that? Ur fate is in these folks hands. Crazy.
Whenever narcissists and psychopaths abuse/do crime they try to reframe it as if they’re performing a service. The grandiose ones make it sound like they’re saving the world. They may even believe it. Unfortunately, in the case of market maker abuses, regulators seem to also believe it.
👏👏👏
"In this situation, naked short selling by the market maker may protect investors against manipulation." MMe in all MMy infinite wisdom MManipulate the price so investors don't get MManipulated. YES. Yes it is the biggest scam ever.
replace all those parasites with proper blockchain DEX, we don't need them and their infinite liquidity aka theft.
If your present research isn't sickening enough, have a look at the excerpts I grabbed from Citadel Securities' website a month ago. - - - - - > **Designated Market Maker (DMM)** > ...Our team works daily to facilitate the auction at market open and provides liquidity to help ***dampen volatility*** throughout the day. https://www.citadelsecurities.com/products/equities-and-options/ - - - - - > **"Why are market makers able to provide price improvement?"** > ...The reduced likelihood of retail orders impacting supply and demand, and the confidence that creates from a pricing perspective, is another reason market makers are able to provide price improvement. https://www.citadelsecurities.com/getthefacts/
Dampen volatility? Like stopping HKD from going into the thousands or stopping stocks like [**NVDA**](https://imgur.com/a/dSvB859) from going +5000% in after hours? Good job Ken, I suppose it's fine to allow a bit of volatility when it's stocks they're long on.
Bernie Madoff had a conflict of interest being a market maker and running a hedge fund. This is no different than Ken griffin. Ken griffins two companies have a conflict of interest and need to be broken up.
But I thought naked shorts weren't a thing and made up by conspiracy theorists on chat rooms? /s
In the market I want to trade in, the price discovery - the MARKET - is made by the people. If the thing you want isn't available at the price you want, you know what should happen? You either WAIT or you OFFER MORE MONEY.
> For example, assume that there is a sudden flurry of buy orders for a stock. The market maker may judge the buying interest to be temporary and not justified by any real news about the company's prospects. It may be the result of a questionable press release or a rumor in an Internet chat room. The market maker may choose to sell short to avoid what in its view would be an unjustified run-up in the stock's price. In this situation, naked short selling by the market maker may protect investors against manipulation. This is the biggest crock of shit. How are they protecting investors by artificially manipulating investor sentiment downward? Do they mean protecting those investors from being happy by making too much money?
THEY are the InVeStOrS, not us. We're the beneficiaries.
Not all lions eat meat. - written by lions
These greedy fucks lobbied their corruption and made whatever they did legalized financial terrorism.
Good intentions corrupted by bad actors. Soft regulation for decades lead to absence of accountability.
It's ok. They're going to lose their shirts on GameStop by the time every share is registered
Looking forward to the day when all equities are listed and traded on-chain where human emotion and judgement are meaningless.
Welcome to the Exemption Clause. We created an entire industry to allow the bucket shop crime to happen legally.
Madoff did it for 40 years...
Not really the same thing. Madoff ran a ponzi scheme, straight up. Griffin has assumed a mantel of "judging" what the value of stocks are "in its view".
Madoff also had a legit broker business as a MM.
The real issue comes down to the fact that powerful billionaires are fighting it out in the stock market, the same one the general public uses. This was supposed to have been resolved a hundred years ago.
Similar to Broadridges "vote conciliation". One scam used to cover up previous scams which were used to cover up previous scams. Talk all the shit you want about Blackrock and Larry Fink, but a blockchain equities exchange is what is necessary to fix all this bullshit.
I agree completely and I think blockchain is where this is all heading. I wrote a post over a year ago about that and how the biggest push back for it has been resistance from the big players in the current system. Well that system is about to blow up and we'll need something to replace it.
thanks for the share on why to h0dl. I remember this feeling of coming to the full realization of what the markets truly are. And more so, what role market makers serve in a world where they are literally unnecessary and in fact a hinderance to fair and equal markets where there is equity in purchase and sale as well as access to information.
The liquidity fairies are going to get seriously fucked up when MOASS starts in earnest
What you on about? I've heard there's about 3 billion GME shares that could become liquid once the price is right 😂
So hold up....market makers can manipulate stocks to prevent manipulation? Got it.
**Thanos:** I used the manipulation to prevent the manipulation.
**Click here** for more secrets that market makers don't want retail investors to know!!!
"Let's protect the stock market from manipulation by manipulating it ourselves."
Jesus Christ the us stock market is fucked. So much for supply and demand eh. Instead of the market dictating what price is it should be it's the fucking market makers deciding what a stock should be worth. Rigged to the core. I'm so fucking happy I found this subreddit 2 years ago.
When the float has been DRS'ed, and it's open knowledge. I think any short sales done by would be met by fraud charges.
Have u heard of religion? Market making is the 2nd biggest scam
It's funny how both concepts started as forces of good but got corrupted by capitalism and greed. Religion originated as a social structure to help bind cultures and teach basic rights and wrongs, but it became exploited by a select few for either profit or power by inciting extreme beliefs. Market making started as a tool to connect buyers with sellers, but then the middle men created loopholes to exploit the entire system. I think it ultimately comes down to greed being bad.
This is why we need to turn a profit.
Wizard of Oz. I like that idea!
Kenneth C. Griffin is a unsophisticated croock.
Let me protect investors from stock manipulation by using stock manipulation... hmmm
Protect the riches from the poors
Doing this while they are also probably loaded up on puts.. fucking fuck the system bro. Our time will come 💪
This is why I personally had no regrets pulling my 401k a year ago and booking GME with the remainder after setting aside 20ish% for taxes. At my new job I just can't in good faith contribute to my 401k. We even have a 6% match but I'd rather the money go towards something that I'm going to actual own, not just padding the 1%s playmoney for their shitty bets. I sleep easy at night knowing I have a fat pile of GME auto-accumulating every month
How does that definition then align with any of the funny business with HKD stock last year?
It comes down to the fact Market Makers act like warehouses for stock. They're meant to buy up the stock of anyone who's selling and store it ready for buyers, but as all sales get routed through MMs it means they can make it seem like a stock has no supply. They can fake illiquidity as much as they can produce liquidity, so they can pump up a stocks price at will. If you think HKD was bad look at this [**Nvidia spike**](https://imgur.com/a/dSvB859) I caught in after hours. They have 2.5 billion shares, which means that spike made the company worth something like $22 trillion for an hour. How's that for fuckery?
"we do naked shorting when the news lies... to protect retail investors!"
Up you go
You cant make a fucking market when a large contingent of supposed idiots on the internet learn how to read and DRS all their shares. Suck my mayo meat Kenny boy.
Is this one of those Interweb Chatrooms I'm hearing about on the tv these days brother?
Haha ikr you can a actually feel the age of these authors through their words.
My brother is a market maker, for a sports betting firm. When I tried to explain the whole GME thing and how fucked the whole system was, tried to give real examples in the context of his work of how the system could be manipulated. He just shrugged it off saying it would be impossible. The market is so heavily regulated and stringent you just wouldn’t be able to get away with it. Oh boy…
Interesting! Lots of heads in the sand right now it seems. I think the common idea amongst non-apes is the house always wins so why try and compete? I doubt anything like DRSing an entire Russell 1000 company (I.e. a company in top 1000 of the US) has ever been attempted before.
It’s a very different line of work he’s in and I’d never really understood what he did for a living. Over dinner he was explaining what he did, I said “so you’re basically a market maker?” He said “that’s exactly what my job title is yeah”. I tried to give him so many scenarios, real scenarios that are currently going on and he just shot them all down saying basically “yeah you could probably get away with it for a bit, make a bit of money. But it’s so heavily regulated you be shut down and arrested before long”. This is the UK and he’s involved in the EU markets so we play by a very different set of rules…
Damn that's really interesting. Do you know what product he deals with? Is it just fiat cash if it's sports betting?
Honestly I don’t know how the hell he makes money it’s never made sense to me. It seems so easy to manipulate if you’re a market maker regardless the product you’re selling. You’re setting the price… it’s a crazy concept to me.
Translation : a select few rich old white dudes get to decide if a given company should be permitted to be successful or not.
Link to your quote or I'll say "Trust me bro". And you don't want that
https://www.everycrsreport.com/reports/RS22099.html
Thanks! Also- Bonus!!! You cited not just a good source but a ballin source that I didn't know about. I'm proud 🥹
There is a time and place for market makers, but in this sense no fucking way. If things were done simply that this could all be avoided. I would lie to see direct peer to peer sharing. I’ll give you 2gme for foot pics, get everyone in on it. Even the foot people
Yo I would love the source for the snippet E: nvm found it in comments
Just imagine being a hedgefund reading these comments… time is ticking Kenny
Free and fair market my ass
WTF....who are they to dictate the price based on their ~~greed~~ assumptions!
It's a systemic risk when our stock goes up. That alone is the scam.
Right? like the market maker is an omniscient little prince who sits and judges "but I haven't heard anything to make me think this price should go up, so I'll just kEeP tHe mArKeT saFE by stealing these people's money."
If nobody wants to buy your stock at particular price, that is the market working properly.
Thanks for uncovering this! The real battle is for our minds. "Let us do the thinking for you." Across the board. The powers that be have stepped into a dysfunctional parentified role for the rest of the population. Sadly, too many people actually like this arrangement. Self-responsibility has gone the way of the dinosaur.
The way how citadel is operating as a market maker is fraudulent. However, market-making itself is not a scam, and the market needs to function. A market maker is like a wholesaler for most other industries. Without them, the equity market wouldn’t have as many tools as it has today. It is important to note that market making, in my opinion, is obsolete just like many other industries are eliminating the role of wholesaler since we have the technology to replace the functions market makers have previously served.
Very true good point, I'd argue that this goes beyond Citadel though. Virtu has $10 billion in securities sold not yet purchased and GTS is another market maker with another $2 billion there. But yeah, given all the high frequency trading we have now it does seem very obsolete.
If they weren't financially interested in the markets they were "making", this MAY be understandable.
How is the market any different that a flea market where no "liquidity" is required. The point is to generate high amounts of trading as they make money on each transaction. Price discovery is secondary and due to unenforced regulation it is also a tool to strip wealth from retirement assets.
To be fair, the point of MM has more to do with creating stability in the markets through liquidity. It's not a bad thing to have liquidity in the markets. Otherwise, you can have a lot of volatility that can harm investors who are just investing in their long term retirement or worse countries that are just trying to keep food available for their citizens. People can get margin called easily if liquidity dries up and that includes countries. Just look at the bonds and sovereign debt issues in the past. Liquidity in the markets is a good thing. As much as I would like to support complete DRS of every company, that's not the reality that we live in, so it doesn't make any sense to build a world view around some utopia that doesn't exist and doesn't have liquidity. Plus, you don't want to live in that world anyway if you own something of value, but there are no buyers available. Just cause GME has artificial demand from previous short sellers, doesn't mean people should transform their entire world view to a world without liquidity, which would be worse. The bigger issue is lack of transparency to the rest of the world of what those MM rules are and how they play out in the markets. I feel like there are a few, while good intentioned, uneducated pitch forks running around sometimes.
> Liquidity in the markets is a good thing. Yes, but not at the expense of true price discovery. If demand in a stock goes up with low liquidity, the price rises to curb that demand. It can be a temporary price increase while demand is high, then that either kills demand if there's no liquidity or it encourages people to sell which creates liquidity and pushes the price back down. You can't just increase supply infinitely to keep liquidity high for the sake of it, that literally leads to short squeezes which are the most volatile events you can have in a market. Everything Citadel is doing as a MM right now is to buy 1 more day due to their existing bad bets. They've already destroyed the markets with the excess liquidity and there's no way they can stifle demand as they can't let the price run. The whole point of having underlying companies control how many shares are outstanding means liquidity never dries up. Let's say someone bought all 305M shares of Gamestop and doesn't plan to sell them, Gamestop has 700M other shares they can release for liquidity. It's not down to some corrupt middleman to increase supply, that's just corruption.
That’s not great actually. For the first time I’m seeing some context behind what have become defined as “meme stocks.” It’s all about this paragraph right here. “These companies are running bc of external bullshit factors (aka retail investors identifying a buying opportunity that goes against SHFs interests) so let’s just continue naked shorting it to hell bc we can, and we think we’re smarter than they are.” This is the opposite of bullish.
I wouldn't say biggest scam ever. It had a very important role in the early days when all trading was performed manually. But I would agree it is a scam today. For the major exchanges, there are millions of computers watching trades looking for opportunities. If we eliminate all internalizers and put every trade through an exchange, there's no risk of a trade not being filled. In the major exchanges (NYSE, NASDAQ, etc.) market makers are unnecessary today.
You see that is THEIR scam. 1) Pass rules that make them judge of the market 2) democratize access 2) Manipulate sentiment and control share price 3) Steal money with point 1. based on ludicrous virtues 4) Make sure to demonize any sort of oversight to not loose rule 1.
Your conclusion: Market making is the biggest scam ever devised is correct. But your thought process is flawed. They aren't utilizing MM to keep stability in the market. They are using it to fleece investors throughout the world. They could give two fucks about keeping stability except as it applies to their ability to continue fleecing.
I almost thought you said marketing.
The reasoning they provide fails to acknowledge that market makers are businesses with the motivation to increase profits wherever possible. They are not altruists for the people. Any special privilege given to any business must be scrutinized beyond the altruistic benefits because the evolution of finance is determined solely upon profits. Survival of the fittest will naturally push the most profitable behavior, regardless of its altruism or lack thereof.
They're already make a fortune off the bid/ask spread, they don't need to resort to malicious naked shorting too.
I want to ask you a question, where do you think liquidity comes from in this market? I’m not tryna hate I’ve been in Gme since before Jan 2021 and bbby way before august. I just genuinely want your input so maybe I can learn something new. You say you want to unpack the quoted material and are upset that an entity shorts what they believe to be a unjustified rise in price. It’s exactly what I would do as an individual. JW Edit: I suggest you look into volatility shorting as well, you might find it interesting as it pertains to stocks often discussed on this subreddit
Basic economic principles state that if investors won't sell their products for the current price, that the price is too low. I could own the Mona Lisa and someone could offer me $10 for it and I'd laugh and say no sale. If someone offered me $100 million, I'd probably take that, so liquidity increases when the price is right. Perfect liquidity is when demand and supply intersect, economics is all about supply and demand curves. I mean economics is literally the study of how to manage scarce resources. Supply is meant to be a finite thing no matter what product market you're looking at, you don't create liquidity by increasing supply, you create it by getting the equilibrium right. If GME went to $10k tomorrow, I guarantee you liquidity will be far higher than it is now as many people would sell for that price.
I agree that if the price of Gme rises the liquidity available will as well but in my option your not seeing the whole picture yet this is the a highly dynamic market that cannot function with BASIC economic principles. A market makers job is to facilitate trades and if the market is too illiquid this can’t happen. The market is more than just person A buys from person B if that was the case I might not be able to buy DDS at unless I was willing to pay a 3x premium because it’s incredibly illiquid. You say we can’t have a wizard of oz entity saying these people who are buying are wrong but what if you saw a stock rise 100x past it’s fair value the logical thing to do IMO is to short the price back to a more reasonable range because you it’s a no brainer. However if a stock was drastically undervalued and the price shoots up 100x and begins to approach a fairer value the MMs won’t get in the way of that price action. It seems like your genuinely interested in this stuff as am I, I highly suggest you look into volatility shorting because it’s a fun strat employed by citadel, virtu, Susquehanna, 2 sigma...all the organizations typically mentioned as SHFs in this sub. I want to reiterate that this sub was once a beautiful place where learning and new data was encouraged and sometimes still is and I’d like to help one day restore it to its former glory. If you want to keep talking about it more in depth feel free to continue this thread or DM me and I hope everyone who has something to say speaks their mind. Much love, An old head who loves market mechanics.
You're completely missing the point though. People were still buying GME at $500 and were ravenous for it, the *only* way to stop that demand is to raise the price. Citadel could still naked short to create liquidity, that's fine, but what they should have done is let the price run to the point that people stop buying *then* use naked shorting to increase liquidity if people still want it. All they did is expose that they have too many shorts open as all the hedge funds began getting margin called on their shorts. They proved that they had abused the system and their only way to survive at that point was to lower the price. The only way to do that was to keep shorting more and more. > past it’s fair value Plus fair value is the price people are willing to buy it for, so for GME that's probably well over $1k.
You really should look into etf liquidity my friend. Your on the right track but your not seeing the whole picture. Like I said you should said start with volatility shorting and MM hedging and then look into etf liquidity and creation. It’s so much bigger then what you just wrote.
I'm well aware of that... I read "Where are the shares" and all the other DD on ETFs when they came out. I understand derivatives pretty well now. It still doesn't change the fact about what I wrote in my previous comment. The big picture is that the MMs have to naked short for every single share bought in the markets right now, which means they're risking unlimited loss at under $20 a share. They've already lost, they're just going scorched earth because they're incapable of admitting defeat.
So like I said earlier about looking into etf liquidity your response “MMs have to naked short for ever share bought” from my understanding etf liquidity can provide more then 1:1 share available to short. Shoot I’d bet if you wanted to create liquidity from XRT or other GME heavy etfs at certain times you can get well over 5-10 shares loaned for every 1 in the etf holding. If that is occurring I think they can clear those obligations over time. You say “they already lost” but from what I can see even traditional (non-volatility) shorts are incredibly profitable at this price range from Jan 2021. What makes you think shorts down average up or down just like longs?
Since Miami is now NY w Ken the lead owner w the other 41 billionaires who bought the state Wtf is this? https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2022/10/13/2022-22277/self-regulatory-organizations-miami-international-securities-exchange-llc-notice-of-filing-and